Mark Cuban tells wild Luka Doncic & Kyrie Irving stories, talks Mavericks sale | Draymond Green Show

What's up everybody? Welcome to the Draymond Green Show YouTube channel. Make sure you hit that subscribe button. Make sure you like the post that you love. Thank you. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show. I told you all last week that we had a guest coming on that I was really excited about, um, an NBA owner, uh, coming on. And you know, this for me is a dream come true because it takes me back to a story that we'll get into a little later.

Uh, but a little banter we had back and forth.

And if you know anything about me, I'm all for good banter. I don't take any banter personal. I'll dish some banter out. You can dish some banter back. I absolutely love it. And this, this guy in particular, he's known for being involved, right in your face, super energetic, super excited, talking to the refs just like I talk to the refs, bantering back and forth. He'll banter with a player. I absolutely love it. And And more importantly than all of that, he's an NBA champion. I can, I want to welcome none other than the legendary Mark Cuban. Welcome to the Draymond Green Show, my friend.

Thanks for having me on, Draymond.

I really appreciate it. Looking forward to it.

Absolutely. No, it's, um, and the story that I'm getting at, um, back in, I don't know, maybe about 6, 7 years ago now, I said something publicly and you said back, If he wants to understand business, I'll get him into Kelley Business School right now. For those of you out there that don't know what Kelley Business School is, one of the top business schools in the world. It is at IU, Indiana University. And Mark, by the way, I have a younger sister. She's now 23 years old. She graduated right up at the top of her class at Kelley Business School 2 years ago. She was the commencement speaker. Oh, wow.

Yes, sir. She's the smart one in the family, right?

Absolutely. Far smarter than me, that's for sure.

Make a really smart—

good thing.

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Absolutely. No, but, um, number one, I have to ask, I know that you are from Pittsburgh. Please tell me you're a Pittsburgh Steelers fan.

Oh, hell yes, I am.

I'm even a—

tonight I'm a Duke Kane Dukes fan, man.

Yes.

I took it to them.

I like, go Dukes, man. It's been 55 years when I, like when I was growing up, I went to their basketball camp, the Duquesne basketball camp.

It was at Robert Morris where Five Star was, right? So it was the camp right before Five Star started.

So that was a big deal. So I've been a Duquesne Dukes fan my entire life.

That is amazing. See, this guy's intense. He's watching college basketball. I love it. I absolutely love it. No, but you know, I just wanna get into number one, like early life before, you know, all the great business moves that you've made. Just talk to me about skipping your senior year and actually enrolling in college. Because for me, like we're starting to see more kids do that now actually in basketball. So just kind of, can you take me back there and like walk me through the thinking behind that?

Sure.

I went to Mount Lebanon High School in Pittsburgh and I always wanted to get into business. And my junior year they would not let me take a senior level economics class. And so I was like, okay, whatever. I want to see if I can take college classes. So I signed up and registered at the University of Pittsburgh my junior year to take night classes. And I took, I forget, psychology and sociology or something, you know, no big deal. And I did good in them, right? So I'm like, okay, I got this. If I can, you know, do okay in classes at night, why do I need to go back to my, you know, for my senior year in high school where they won't let me take business classes? So I just picked up and skipped my senior year and went to the University of Pittsburgh and started taking classes there, joined a fraternity. So I'm literally supposed to be a high school senior, right? And I'm joining the fraternity and going back to my high school to take some girl to prom, right?

Mm-hmm.

All of a sudden I went from being this dweeby guy to like that guy.

And so it was fun, man.

I just wanted to challenge myself and just see if I can do it. And I could. And That just gave me confidence going forward.

That's so interesting because when you look back, like when you look back at successful people, like you can always go to something and be like, look at that thing right there. Like to have that thing as a 16, 17-year-old and say, no, I'm actually wanna move on from this. To have the courage to go to your parents and say, I'm skipping my senior year of high school.

You don't understand. I didn't go to my parents. [LAUGHTER] Oh, you know, 'cause I paid for it when I took those classes And at night, I mean, they were excited.

I told them that, right? Because I wanted to show them I was doing it. And then they were, I'm like, okay, I'm taking those classes. I'm just going to, you know, go to college and didn't really get into the part that I had to drop out of high school in order to be able to do it. So I literally was a high school dropout. And it was only after I, like my sophomore year in Indiana, I forget exactly, that I called back up to the high school and asked them if I could take my college credits and use it to be able to graduate high school.

Mm-hmm.

Wow, that's incredible. That is absolutely amazing. So you go and you graduate from Indiana Kelley Business School, and how soon is it that you move into creating Broadcast.com?

Oh no, it was a while, right? So I graduate and I go down to Dallas and I get a job at night as a bartender, and then I get a job working selling software. And long story short, I get fired from that job, realize I'm a shitty employee, go start a company called MicroSolutions. That gets me really hardcore into technology. So, I learn how to program, program for like 7 years. And we were one of the first companies in the country to like connect PCs together. Back then, it was a big deal. Sell that, buy a lifetime pass on American Airlines, travel around the world, party like a rock star, just have— I'm 30 years old, just had the best time ever, man. I was just living the life. And then one of my buddies from IU and I get together. This was early '95. And he was like, "Look, there's this internet thing. You're the technology guy. Can we do something to be able to listen to IU basketball down here in Dallas?" Mm-hmm. Because literally to listen to the game, we would have somebody up in Bloomington put a radio next to a speakerphone and then call long distance down to us.— Wow. And we would listen on the speakerphone down in Dallas with like a 6-pack, 12-pack, whatever, and yuck it up while we're listening to the game. You know, it wasn't on TV, nothing. And so I'm like, let me figure this out. And so we started a company called AudioNet, and that was the first streaming company. And then when we started to get into video, we changed the name to Broadcast.com, took it public in 1998. It was the biggest IPO in the history of the stock market at the time. And then sold it. But yeah, so that was the start of the streaming industry and that's how I really, you know, that's why you know my name. That's why, that's how I was able to buy the Mavs.

That's amazing, $5.7 billion. To sell something for $5.7 billion today is crazy. $5.7 billion in 1999? Like, I was 9 years old, by the way, just to make you feel old.

I know, trust me, all this shit makes me feel old.

Good question though. You just said something very interesting to me. You said you bought an American Airlines lifetime pass. Lifetime pass. Just outta curiosity, would you still happen to have access to that pass if you wanted?

No, 'cause I gave it to a friend.

Okay, okay.

'Cause he traveled a lot for me 'cause he worked for me.

So I gave it to him 'cause I bought a plane, you know? And so I didn't need it. Yes.

Yeah.

I was about to ask you, can you transfer it over to me if you still have it?

Yeah, I know. You're not the first to ask, but.

So fast forward, um, 2011, you become a Shark on Shark Investor on Shark Tank.

Yep.

Uh, talk to me about that because that feels to me like something you get into. Obviously you are who you are in the business world, in the tech world. I've actually seen you out here at some of the tech things before. Um, but talk to me about actually like going public with that. Was it more of the competition in it kind of to drive you to do that? Oh, yeah.

It was, you know, network television, right? It was a chance to be on something, you know, television was a lot different back then.

Regular TV was a lot different, right?

You know, to be on something, you know, when 10 million, 15 million people could watch you was cool. And, but it was, you know, 'cause they asked me to come on as a guest first.

Yeah.

So they kicked some dude off and then they had Jeff Foxworthy come on to do 3 episodes. And then they asked me to come on and do 3 episodes. And I'm like, look, I don't know if this business, this show is gonna last. It's about business, who knows, right? Probably not gonna last, but I'm gonna come on and I'm just gonna raise hell, right? Yes.

So I got on there and I'm buying everything, you're right.

I'll give you a deal, I'll give you a deal, I'll give you a deal. And then it was just like, they were like, okay, you get it. I loved it. It really sent the message to kids more than anybody that the American dream is alive and well if you bust your ass, right? And people coming from, you know, Michigan, Idaho, Pennsylvania, Texas, standing on that carpet pitching us, and going from nothing to something, I mean, that gets people excited. It teaches them about business and to be part of that, that felt good. And so, you know, I did it on a whim because I didn't know what to expect, but I stayed with it for 15 years now because now kids are coming up to me, "Hey, you know, I've got this idea. I'm learning about business with Shark Tank." Parents come up to me, my kids, you know, it's a show we all watch together. It's great, right? So that's why I've done it so long. And I just think it's an important message.

Yeah.

That's incredible 'cause it's a great show. You know, I've watched it for years and it's absolutely incredible. How much success do you see coming out of like companies that you find through Shark Tank?

You know, it's like anything else. Like you invest all the time.

Like when we had Pogi, right? And he would tell me about your poker games and all the guys and all the investments and shit.

And you know, Iggy the same way, right?

You guys were like your own little investment club.

And so we would talk about it and it's about the same way, right? You got some big hits and then you got, you know, the what the fuck was I thinking, you know, joints, right? And so I've had like Dude Wipes has gotten really big, you know, they could do $200 million in business this year and I forget like $250 grand for 20% of the company or 15% of the company.

Wow.

Yeah, you know, BeatBox Beverages has just blown up. They'll do $200 million in business this year. They just did a round at $200 million and they're doing,, you know, $15, $17 million in EBITDA. I was able to take some money off the table there. Mush, packaged oatmeal that you see, they're killing it. They'll do $100+ million in sales this year. And then there's ones you've never heard of, right?

Yes.

And then I've had some exits, you know, where I've made, you know, $10 million or $20 million. So honestly, I was right around breakeven, losing up until about 2 years ago. And then these last 3 years, those 3 companies have just blown up. And so, You know, Collars and Co. is another company. It's just I've had some really good ones that have taken off the last couple years.

That's amazing. That's incredible. And to see that type of deal flow as often as you get to see it. Yeah. That's—

You know, it's not just about killing it either, you know, because I've done deals where it's somebody that I know I'm not gonna make any money, probably gonna lose my money, but you know, it sends a message, right? That, hey, if I look like this person and they gotta deal with Mark, anything's possible. And to me, that's important.

Absolutely. And that, that's going to bring us back to a topic later because I do want to talk about how you work, about how you work with your employees, but we'll get there. So I think it's absolutely amazing. I'm gonna just go ahead and throw that out there with what you've done with your employees, with the sale of the Mavericks. I saw what you're doing even after that, you know, not washing your hands with it because you're still very involved, but to, to give back to people who's helped build these businesses. I talk about that all the time. So we'll get into that. But so in 2000, after selling broadcast.com in '99, you then go on and you buy the Dallas Mavericks.

Yeah.

When you bought the Dallas Mavericks in 2000, did you think like you'd look up 24 years later and that you'd be selling that thing for $3.5 billion or was it more fun for you?

No, it was all about fun. It wasn't like, I'm gonna buy this thing. Look, I'm the luckiest motherfucker in the world, right? You know, to come where I come from and then all of a sudden to have a B, multiple Bs next to your name, I never imagined that, right? And so, you know, my dad did upholstery on cars and his thing was always about, you only have so much time on this earth and you better enjoy it, right?

And that's what I tried to do.

You know, my motivation always, yeah, I wanted to get paid, but I wanted to get paid so I can bring, control my own time, right? Yes.

So I got an iWatch.

I never, the day I sold MicroSolutions, I took off my watch and said, I'm never gonna wear a watch again because I never wanna be on anybody else's time.

I wanted everyone else to have to work to my time, right?

And so that to me, like when I bought the Mavs, that was the thing, right? I was 40, 41 years old.

I would play pickup 3, 4, 5 times a week.

So the, you know, the idea of going and, Getting up shots with Nash and Dirk and Finley, you know, and getting into little runs every time and not completely embarrassing myself back then, right? I mean, that was like a dream. So, you know, and like negotiating that deal, I didn't even negotiate. I was just like, yes, whatever, right? And it was done. I walked in, changed some things up and just, you know, it was a ride. But I never thought, honestly, I never thought I would sell it at all.

Yeah.

But you know, the world changes.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's been incredible to watch what you were able to do with that franchise. Like I remember growing up as a young kid and like the Dallas Mavericks being the laughingstock of the NBA, very similar to how the Warriors were.

For sure.

Like being the laughingstock and to watch that and you draft Dirk and well, you didn't draft Dirk, but you kept Dirk and you know, but to have Dirk and the guys that y'all had coming through there and to watch you build up the Dallas Mavericks into what they've become is absolutely amazing.

How—

Yeah, made it easy though, obviously.

Yeah. Well, I mean, but here's the thing though. You take over the team in '99, y'all don't win the championship until 2011. To stick with Dirk for 12 years, that says a lot about you though.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, look, he was my guy no matter what, thick or thin, right? And you know,— this game is hard, right? And it takes a lot of luck, right? You know?

Yes, it does.

You want, you know, and you know the story, like Monte or Steph, right?

Who you gonna take, right?

You know, for Bogie.

And so, you know, you try not to, you know, I let Nash go. I might have had as many rings as you if I don't, you know, if I make a different decision there. And so, you know, sticking with Dirk wasn't hard, but trying to figure it all out, it's always hard. And the game changes. Every single year. You know, right now the teams are so much more talented. You know, you could ride one horse, two horses back then, right? Yes. And there's two guys on the court that couldn't shoot, one defender, one rebounder, just a different game. And one guy could get you 50 wins in the season. You know, it's not like that anymore, but all the way through you have to adapt and try to figure it out. But you know, Dirk was just kind of a cornerstone that just made it easy.

Absolutely. I got a lot of respect for Dirk and we'll get more into that. But I know you watch everything and you, not only do you watch everything, you know way more than any of us knows. But in watching what Steve Ballmer is doing with the new arena and how he's trying to cater to fans, what is one of the changes that you would make to the in-game basketball experience for fans? Like you being a huge fan yourself, But being in it, what's the one change or one change that you'd make to better the experience for fans in the new arena?

Well, I mean, Steve, you know, it's great. Like Steve talks about the bathrooms, right? Because he wants to get people back into their seats because if they're not in their seats, they can't be cheering. If they're not making noise, because that sixth man is a real thing. Yes, it is.

Right?

So, you know, that energy, you know, people don't like, when I got to the NBA, I used to give him shit all the time because the top spots, David, Adam, and down, they were all lawyers. So, I used to say, "NBA, nothing but attorneys," right?

And I would give him shit.

I'm like, "Dude, you don't even know what business we're in.

You think we're in the basketball business.

You want to hear sneakers squeaking because that's what they did in 1956." I'm like, "When you go to a game, you feel that energy that is unlike anything else you can get. You can't get that watching in front of a television, right?" Yeah.

You can't get that.

When you feel that energy and you feel it when you walk on the court, right? Absolutely. Like the worst matchups, right? There is an energy there and the fans feel it. And you know, when it's bad matchups, there's usually more kids in the stands.

So it's louder, right?

Yeah. And so, you know, when I got there, it was all about how do you keep people's heads up? And that was before it was hardcore cell phones, right? And wireless and everything. And so now, like you wanna do as many things as you can so that people's energy stays up. You wanna always be entertaining and parents are bringing their kids. And so you've gotta make sure that kid's attention span doesn't wander. Because if the parent has to pay attention to the kid because the kid is on his phone or whatever, you're not gonna have that energy 'cause you want that kid screaming, right?

Absolutely.

So it's like I learned an early lesson that I was like, what the fuck? Like, and you see it too. In 2000 or in 2024, you shoot t-shirts into the stands, they're yelling.

Yes, they are. Yes, they are.

Other than a game-winning bucket, right?

Those people are going nuts for the t-shirts, right? And so like, okay, let's get people's heads to stay up and pay attention. So you'll see us do videos a lot. And so the jumbotrons have gotten, you know, amazing now because people have to look up. You have to keep that attention. You'll see the courts. So, you know, they've been testing see-through courts that actually show videos, right? And our LCDs, you know, you saw it at the All-Star, right? But it was kind of weird. Yes, sir.

'Cause it was kind of smushy, right? And it was a little bit different. So they gotta get that better.

But any, for me, it's like anything that keeps your head up and the energy up, right? It's like Bombers trying to do that one section where you have to have, like, we, when first started and we stopped this a few years ago, like if you came painted up as a Mavs fan, we had a whole section that was free, right?

Oh wow.

Yeah, we had 300 people competing for 100 seats, right? And everybody would be all painted up and so, You know, it's all about energy because that's where the fans give you an advantage. And, you know, it gets harder because things get more expensive. And so, you know what it's like, you know, the front row, you know, whether it's Chase, whether it's Dallas, whether it's LA, wherever, even Milwaukee, right? Those are the people that pay to get, you know, to get close and yell and everything.

Absolutely.

It's hard.

They're not putting on the t-shirts on during the playoffs, right?

Yes. So just trying to come up with ways to keep that energy up, that's the mission in any arena.

No, absolutely. I definitely understand that. And you know, we feel that energy and you feel when it's not there. Like you can feel when energy leaves the arena.

Yep.

And it's sometimes tough because we start looking to the crowd for a little energy. They're almost looking to us for a little energy.

Totally.

And when you have those different type of activations and things with the jumbotron, it can sometimes help organically spark them that helps organically spark us.

Exactly. We do these things, like we do these original videos where we make the guys on our team the stars, right? And the guys are up and they, you know, you can feel it, right?

And you can feel when you do something or there's the old standbys that get, you know, get loud or, you know, the, the vid, like we'll do a Hoosiers video where they're all clapping and all that, right? Anything it takes to get, get the crowd going because that can be the mean the difference between winning and losing, right?

Absolutely.

And not just on the court, but them coming back and having a good experience, you know, because if you, if the game, even if the game sucked, right? And no matter what, 41 regular season games, there's gonna be some stinkers both ways, right?

Mm-hmm, absolutely.

As long as you can find ways to keep kids involved, they'll keep that energy up and they'll keep their— 'Cause if you're a parent, like, how old are your kids now?

My kids are 9, 7, 3, and 4 months.

Congrats, right?

Thank you.

So that 9 and 7-year-old, right?

When you go to a game with them and you're, no matter what the sport, and you're looking in their face and you're looking in their eyes and you're seeing that smile. They got the cotton candy and they're doing their thing, right? That's all you care about as a parent.

Absolutely. Right? That is the experience.

You remember the first time your aunt, your uncle, your dad, your mom, whoever it is, your buddies took you to a game or you went together. And your parents, they remember it forever, right?

You'll remember that feeling forever.

And that's what we get to do at the NBA. And that's what I kind of— try to emphasize for our people, right? Because that's what people remember. And that gets us Ws too, because when those kids are screaming with that cotton candy, it's a win-win.

Absolutely. No, I, and my wife actually brought it to my attention and kind of made me do it, but it was a good thing. In our arena, you know where the comp seats would get, they'd be a little higher up. And once my kids started getting a little older, she's like, hey, they wanna see you. Like they wanna be able to make contact, eye contact with you. They wanna be able to almost talk to you. And so I bought some seats, can't afford courtside seats at Chase Center. They're a little too expensive.

That's the shit right there.

But we got some seats pretty, like pretty close to the court. And it changes, it actually changes the entire game experience for me who's playing.

Okay, well then let me ask you a question.

Absolutely.

You hold yourself back because you see your kids there.

Do I hold myself back?

Yeah.

Absolutely. Because like, you know, I've, and like for instance, the instances this year, I was very thankful, neither game where I had some things happen, my kids weren't there. But it definitely like makes me maintain a sense of control when I know they're right there in the stands, that they're watching it right there.

So when Jake's at the game looking at me, now that he's 14, or my other daughter, and they're rolling their eyes at me, I'm like, It changes everything, right?

Yeah, everything.

No, for sure. So I definitely understand that. But I read something where you said your investment, well, your sale of the Mavericks is an investment in specific partners as well as a bet on real estate being important to the future of NBA ownership. What was the reason, —can you share a little bit more or clarify a little bit more of that for me or for our audience?

Look at Chase, right? Look what Joe and that whole crew did, right?

Joe went and put together the group. It was all private funding and they built a place that's amazing and that's where they make more of their money. I mean, I don't know all the numbers, but that's what I would bet, right? Because— and look how much they spent to get there.

Yes. I don't know that shit at all.

Right?

Yes. I, you know, I did this 'cause I love basketball.

I didn't do this to try to make as much money as I could. You know, when we would do stuff, it wasn't like, okay, I gotta hit this budget. And it'd be like, okay, whatever.

And that, it was good sometimes and it got me in trouble sometimes, right?

'Cause I wasn't paying attention to that side. But now with the new CBA and the way media's changing, I know technology and media cold, man. I grew up with that. I know that stuff in and out. I couldn't build a Chase Center if I wanted to. My new partners, the Patrick Dumond and the Allisons, that's what they live for, man. The Sands, he runs the Sands Corp and, you know, they're the biggest casino people around the world and they build arenas. This is what they live for, right? And so, you know, like on Shark Tank, I always say I'd rather have 25% of a watermelon than 100% of a grape, right?

Yes. Down to, right?

I just, you know, because I just, I'm not good at asking people for money. Let's go put together this thing. You know, I just, I love the game. I love being part of it. I love the energy. I hate losing, right? And I hate the pain of it all, but I know what I'm good at and I know what I suck at. And I wasn't gonna try to lie to myself and do something I couldn't do.

That's special. And the smartest people in the world, you're also smart because you know what you don't know. And that's one of the things that I've tried to figure out You know, obviously I'm 34 now, so I've been doing some business, but, and getting the people around me that knows what I don't know.

It's no different than basketball though, right? You know your role.

And when your team, when everybody on the team knows your role, you're pretty good. Even if everybody's not as talented as another team.

Absolutely.

When you don't, people don't know the rules, the roles, that's when things go to shit, right? And it's the exact same way in business. And the hard part is going through all the ups and downs to getting that squad together, right? Because everybody's got their own goals. Everybody's got, you know, a limited career where they've got to accomplish certain things. Some guys just want to stay in. It's all different. Well, in companies, it's the same way, right? Somebody, you know, it's just a start to their career. They don't want to stay in this city forever. So, they're not going to be there forever. Somebody's been at it for, you know, 15 years. They know it's getting, you know, longer in the tooth. It's harder for them to keep up, but they have this wisdom and experience. How do you make all these people in the company mesh? Yeah. And when you're trying to invest in new things, particularly like when things are changing or new industries, whether it's AI on the tech side or real estate and all the changes that are happening there, you gotta know how to put together that team. I didn't, I don't. And I just didn't fit my skillset. And, you know, it wasn't like I was paying them to come in. I was getting paid for the right to do that.

Right.

So it was a win-win situation. And I got to stay with the basketball side, you know, and, you know, run out in the court when Kyrie hits an insane shot and I'm in that pile on like, you know, that's the best part about owning, at least now owning part of a team or owning the whole team back then. That shot's in the air, everybody's heart's pounding.

I get to run on the court and jump the pile, not get arrested, man. The best thing ever.

Absolutely. And by the way, when you started doing that, that brought, not only did it bring life to NBA ownership, but I think it brought totally different perspective to how people viewed NBA owners. No one was as involved. No owner was running on the court going crazy.

Oh, they said so much shit.

You have no idea. Like the guys, like when I first got there, the old dudes that like inherited the teams, bought 'em, won 'em in a poker game or whatever, right? They would, I'd be in a meeting and at one time they were like, shut the fuck up. You've never done anything in this league. And then I called the dude by the wrong name 'cause I just got there and just like, They were just killing me all the time, finding me. Like the first time I got fined, we were in Minnesota and I always wanted to set the tone that there was no job on the basketball side that I wouldn't do, right?

Even on the other side for that matter, business side.

And so I want, you know, the guys who sit on the floor, the equipment guys, and then they'll get up, they'll take your jersey, whatever, give you your warmups and everything. I'm like, I'm sitting with those dudes, right? Mm-hmm. Because I want to get to know them better.

I want to see their job.

And I want to be close to the team, just get the feel for the vibe, right? And they find me $100,000, I think it was, my first full year for conduct unbecoming an owner.

I'm like, you ain't seen nothing yet, David.

That's hilarious. Is it? So, so, so right now after the sale has been completed, uh, by the way, I'm sorry, congratulations on that.

Thank you.

You know, so many times, you know, I have a, I'm really sorry because I have a huge pet peeve. You know, just like yourself, we have friends that are doing incredible things. And so oftentimes because our friends have had so much success, right? Like you see something where it's like, oh, Mark once sold Broadcast.com in '99 for $5.7 million. So I don't really need to hit him and say congratulations about selling it for $3.5 million. Out of $3.5 billion. Excuse me, right? Like, and, and that happens so oftentimes to people that's had success over and over and over again. And so I apologize. Congratulations on that.

It's okay, I'm okay with it. I appreciate it. Thank you.

No problem. So, but, um, so what is your role currently now with the Dallas Mavericks once you've completed the sale?

Just basketball.

Okay.

I don't have to worry about anything else, you know.

Nico and me and just, you know, because when you're the general manager, by the way, Nico's done a phenomenal job.

Yes, he has.

Right, he's a stud. But there's still, there's the sense of a general manager is different than the sense of an owner, right? Because the owner's gotta think not just in terms of one year or even three years or this contract or next time, you gotta have a longer horizon. And you've gotta think more in terms of the CBA and, you know, the bigger picture, how much money you willing to lose in luxury tax, right? How much you willing to spend? You gotta make that decision. Right, where, you know, the general manager just wants to win or keep the job, whatever it is, right? So it's just a different perspective. And, and plus, Nico, you know, is new to the basketball side. And so there's somebody's got to be that guy that, that's been there a long time and has done it a long time. So it's a great partnership. I love working with the guy. And, you know, it's been easy for me to give him more and more responsibility because he's so good at it.

Yeah, no, Nico's incredible. I had the opportunity to work with Nico for my first 9 years in the NBA, I wanna say, when he was with Nike. And he was always incredible. He was always very honest, which I can always appreciate. He was always extremely honest with me. If I called him and I'm like, "Nico, I want a signature shoe." Nico's response probably would be, "Draymond, I love you. You can't sell a signature shoe." Like always just honest.

He calls himself the silent assassin. He's like, Silent assassin, right? He'll pull no punches whatsoever.

Exactly. And I think that's absolutely incredible. And I was so excited. Like, I know Nico had teetered around with some assistant GM jobs throughout the years. I think the Spurs was one of them and a couple other, maybe the Lakers was one of them. He was, you know, him and Kobe, what they built. And I was so excited to see him get the opportunity to be the general manager of the Dallas Mavericks because I know what type of person Nico is, and I know the type of loyalty you've shown to players who's played for you, coaches who's coached for you, general managers who's been the general manager of your teams. I know the type of loyalty. And being in this business, I care about Nico. Like, we built a great relationship. I still talk to Nico to this day. Like, being in this business, to see him uproot his family from Portland to Dallas that had been home forever.

And Paul. Yeah.

Like, and to know, like, but you're going to a guy that's gonna be willing to grow. With you, like you're, and is going to be loyal to you. I was really happy to see that because I knew it would be a good situation for him.

Yeah, him, Charlize, the family, I mean the kids, they're good people, right?

So it makes it easy for me, you know? And it's just a matter of letting him take his steps and, you know, trusting him to do things.

You know, I still, we still talk and everything and, you know, still get involved.

But, you know, every day he gets more and more responsibility and he just, keeps on getting better, and that's all you can ask.

That's absolutely incredible. Um, there was, there was a, um, a little rumor around that you were scared on what the next TV deal brings, and that, uh, that that's one of the reasons you sold the team. Is there any truth to that? And if so, what are you thinking about the new TV deal?

That's a good question, right?

You can't look at linear television and not be scared.

Yes. Right?

Yes.

That's the difference, right? Look, I'm on Shark Tank.

I see her— our ratings every week. Used to be like when the show aired, we'd have 9, 10 million viewers. Now there's 3, 4 million viewers, right?

And that's the same thing across.

But on the flip side, the shows that do do well, sports, right? So they need us more. But then one step further, like Bally's was our local broadcaster.

Yes. And they went bankrupt. Right? And so they got bailed out by Amazon.

So if streamers come in and are as big as I think they are going to be, it won't be an issue, right?

Yes.

Even if I'm 80% confident, there's always that 20% chance, right? So it's hard to peg it exactly. I don't think we're going to have a problem for the next 10 years.

Yes.

After that, I have no idea, right?

Who knows what the world's going to be like from technology and streaming and AI and multimedia. You know, what I do think is a source of revenue that is under-monetized is social media.

Yes. Right? Because we are the biggest thing.

The NBA is huge on social media, right? You know that, you see it. You know, guys in the NBA are, you know, other than maybe, you know, soccer overseas, right? The biggest athletes on the planet.

That's a fact.

And that carries a lot of value. And so, I think, you know, I've pushed hard and continue to push hard that we're under-monetizing that. So, even if those deals aren't quite where I expect them to be, I think the social media side will pick up the slack at some point, maybe not this year, but 5, 10 years, whatever it is. So, I think the NBA will be okay. So, you know, from— it wasn't so much that, but it was definitely the real estate side, like I explained to you. And look, you know, the whole 25% of a watermelon, If we're able to get casino gaming passed, resort casino gaming passed in Texas, could you imagine a Venetian built in downtown Dallas where the, the Dallas Mavericks play?

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It's a great city, right?

It is a nice city.

Like now I just saw something like between Dallas-Fort Worth, up to 8 million people.

And we're like the fifth largest, you know, DMA. So there's nothing but upside down here, but you need somebody who knows that business to take advantage of it.

Absolutely. But that's gotta be a tough thing to get past in Texas, no? Like with it being a red state, Yeah, I mean, now, you know, there's 31 states that support gaming.

And so it's not if, it's when.

Okay, that's amazing. I know if somebody, anybody can do it, you can.

But yeah, I don't even know about that, but you know, but we're not trying to pitch, okay, more online gaming, right?

It's not like, this is not app-based.

We're talking about building a resort so that, you know, U2 can come in here and be the house band, right? Or Travis Scott can be the house band. And you know, for different, so you can bring everybody to the spot. And it's gonna generate billions in revenue for the state. You know, it's not gonna generate $200 million like gaming does, online gaming does. It's real money that states can't ignore. And the other thing, like when I pitch it, right, it's like, what's the one spot that you wanna bring your family to come visit in Texas? What's the one vacation spot in Texas?

Well, I wanna go to Dallas, but it's not really much of a vacation.

Exactly. Now if we build a Venetian in Dallas, you're saving your money. Absolutely. Coming to Dallas, right?

That's the whole point. That's why I think it'll pass.

I love that. And I think it'll be great in the upside of that for that city. Like, I don't think people know the amount of wealth that's actually in Dallas. Like, for that city, oh my God, it'd be through the roof. And then you're basing that around basketball team, like, that's next level. Well, I must be honest, the first part of that interview, we got about 20 minutes left with Mark, and we're gonna get into this. I'm liking this, right? Okay, okay. But the first part of that interview was for me. I wanted to ask you all of these questions and just things like, I respect how brilliant you are, how intense you are, how you go about your business. So that was for me. But let's get into some basketball stuff. Like you, in 2011, you won a championship and you were loud about it and I loved it. But And all the success that you've had, you know, like $5.7 billion sale. I can't get over that. $3.5 recently. Insane. Outta all the success that you have, where does winning that championship rank amongst your career accomplishments?

Well, after family. The money comes after the championship. No, the money comes before the championship, then the championship, right?

Yes, sir. I mean, you see Larry O'Brien back there, right?

Absolutely.

You had that guy, right? But he's lonely. You know, that's why I'm jealous of you, right? Right? That stuff is hard. And so, and it's been so long now, right?

It's just like, you know, until you guys won again, you know, 2 years ago, it was like, when's this gonna happen again? And so—

Yes. It's just hard.

And so, can't happen soon enough, but it's definitely, that was a great moment. But you know this better than I do, right? It's almost anticlimactic and it's more a stress release than it is a celebration.

100%.

Because you're building up, you're building up, you're building up, and you know that's the pinnacle, right? And when you get there, it's like you just expect the skies to part, the seas to part.

And when it happens the first time and you're like, ah, wait, nothing really changed.

I mean, other than the whole city going nuts and everything, but still, you know? And so, but then that stress starts building again the next season, even more so. And then the next season. You know, just for the stress release of it all, I want more.

Yes, sir. I know, I get it. And you know what's crazy? When we won our first one, and to your point, it being so anticlimactic, when we won our first one, I was like, wow, this feels amazing. Immediately after that, the feeling switched to, I can't imagine never feeling this feeling again. It almost becomes depressing.

You know that, right?

The stress begins, right?

I'm like, I'm like, "We're just going to go party. I'm putting all this out of my mind. We're going to go have a good time. We're going club, whatever Dirk, whatever Jet, whatever those guys want. Yes, that's what exactly we're going to do." I get back and, you know, that's what makes this business different than every other because the city's on fire, right? You're going to have a parade.

People are screaming in the streets.

Everybody's pouring out and you're just dying to get back there to be part of it. I took that trophy everywhere, man.

[LAUGHTER] I never had to buy a drink for another year, even outside of Dallas, 'cause we beat the Heatles, right? Mm-hmm.

And so it was just, but then like you said, and honestly, that was when we had a lockout and I never thought we were gonna go back and play at all. I really thought we were gonna miss the whole year. And so it made it even crazier.

Mm-hmm.

No, that's amazing. Well, and then y'all go on and y'all have like the largest bill and live, one of the largest bills at that time in Live nightclub history. And that's when Live, like, Live today is great, it's Live, but Live then—

Was Live.

Was a totally different story. That's when Live was Live. How was that night of partying? 'Cause that, by the way, we went to Vegas after our championship and I will never forget that trip. How was that night?

Oh, it was insane, right?

I mean, you know, they have the stage where the DJ is and we're up there singing I've got this $140,000 bottle of champagne and we're trying to lift it and drink it and, you know, just stupid shit that if there weren't videos and pictures, I'd never remember, right?

Yes, yes. It's that kind of night.

That's amazing. Oh man, that's incredible. I would've paid to be there for that celebration.

Oh yeah.

Oh man, Miami? That's the time.

Yeah, it was fun.

That's the time. So very, very important moment in NBA history. And it's important now on an individual level. This guy is so incredible. It will soon be important on a team level as well with the trajectory of his career. Drafting Luka Dončić.

Yeah.

And it took a trade for y'all to do that. Just talk to me about how that came about, how y'all knew Luka was the guy. Because I had a friend, well, I have a friend that played overseas, played EuroLeague, played. And when Luka was like 17 years old, 16, he's like, "Yo, it's this 16, 17-year-old over here on Real Madrid. I'm telling y'all, he gonna be the next one." And a couple of me and my boys was like, "Yo, you don't think he too slow? You don't think?" And he's like, "No, I'm telling you, he gonna get to whatever spot he want to get to. He's smart, he shoot." Like talk to me about drafting Luka. What was that process like?

So like our scouts had it, Draymond Green number 1 and our analytics had Luka number 1, right?

And so it was, you know, wasn't a battle, right? Because we knew Aiton was gonna go number 1.

Yes. Right? Then the question was, what happens next?

Yes.

We're thinking for sure, you know, Luka's going number 2 because they have a, there's a connection there, everything, right? And didn't happen, right? Gets to number 3 and First of all, the crazy part is, I'm not going to use the word, but we worked hard to have the third worst record in the NBA. We fell right to number 5. The Mavs have never moved up in the draft, never moved up, only stayed the same or gone down. So we fall to 5. And so we're hearing that the Hawks want Draymond Green and the general managers are talking, talking, talking, not getting done. So about 30 minutes to go. It's coming up to our time, you know, either get it done or we're not, we're not gonna have a chance. And so I ended up getting on the phone with the Hawks owner and we hashed it out ourselves. And it was like, look, the general managers, they're all over negotiating. Owner to owner, let's just get this done. And with about 15 minutes to go before our pick, we got it done.

See, now that's a pro move, Mark, because Luka, and by the way, Trae Young has had an incredible career.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Great career. But Luka, Luka's generational. Like, Luka is at any, on any given night, the best player in the NBA. Like, you know, so Luka's generational to me is just a little different. Trae is great. I think Trae is incredible.

But you just don't know, right? I mean, look, We make the trade and we go to China to play. And Sean Marion, and I forget who else from the NBA, you know how they have ambassadors when you go overseas and everything? And they're sitting next to me and he's starting to play. I'm like, tell me what you think. Tell me, because you just don't know, right?

Yes.

You just don't know until you know.

And, you know, nobody picks somebody at the top of the draft thinking they suck.

Yes.

You know? That's a fact.

Whatever it is that you see, you're just praying to God that that's what comes through. And so we don't know. And in the preseason, you're starting to see little glimmers. And then the regular season, he's still getting started and still finding his way. And then all of a sudden you start seeing these things. You're like, "All right, this is the guy." Absolutely.

So I have a question to ask you because you said you got on the phone with the Hawks owner, I'm assuming Tony Ressler.

Yeah.

Okay, so I'm assuming you got on with Tony. And at this time, Tony's what, 2 years into owning the Hawks, if even 2 years. 2 years, got that right. Pretty fairly new. You've now been in this for 20 years. Uh, is that a classic moment of saying when you hire a general manager, let them do their job? And here's why I asked that, because you who's been in there for 20 years, you're like— you and Joe are probably as much of decision makers when it comes to basketball as there are of any owners in the NBA. And you get on the phone and you hash this out with Tony. But the difference between Luka and Draymond Green has been a fireable offense for other people. And you—

But, but you know, the Hawks go to the conference finals his rookie year, right?

Yes.

You just don't know. And they're looking brilliant. We don't make the playoffs, right?

Mm-hmm. And no, we make the playoffs.

Yeah, we make the play— No, we didn't make the playoffs that first year, right? Yeah. They're looking like heroes, right? Yes.

When they get to the conference finals and we haven't made the playoffs.

And so you just don't know. And it just takes time. And like we were talking earlier, you can have a generational player, you can have Michael Jordan, you can have LeBron. LeBron didn't make the playoffs his first year.

You know, Michael didn't make the playoffs his first couple years. And so it takes a team.

For sure. Vlad Divac lost his job over that because he drafted Marvin Bagley, if I'm not mistaken. Travis Schlenk, has been out in Atlanta, but that doesn't seem like your way to go. Like you had Donnie for years, like that, you don't, you ironically Pittsburgh Steelers, you don't seem to flip guys much. What's your, what, like what's your take on building front offices and coaches and retaining them? Because they get flipped over like nobody's tomorrow around this league, but you don't quite take that approach.

Yeah, I mean, until you got something better to go to, Why would you change, right?

Hiring a coach in particular is the hardest job in professional sports.

Yes.

Because they walk in the door and they're smart, right?

That's why they've got the opportunity to be a head coach in the NBA. So, they can tell you point by point by point what's already wrong with your team. And they can tell you what they think they want to do to get it there and what you need to do. And it's hard to say no to. So, you got to look at the non-obvious factors. Like when we got Rick, and it depends on your team too. So like when we went from Avery Johnson to Rick, we had the team that we had, but we needed just a different kind of voice, right? And then when Rick left, it was like, okay, let's get a different kind of voice with J-Kidd, you know, because Nico was coming in at the same time too. And so, you know, unless there's a reason to change or I've got something better, why change? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. No, I definitely understand that. And speaking, continuing on the lane of basketball and what you've done with the Mavericks, Dirk obviously has statue, obviously Hall of Fame, obviously championship, MVP, more accolades up until this point. But do you think that Luka Dončić has a chance to be the greatest Maverick ever? Like obviously Dirk is who Dirk is.

Yeah, no disrespect to Dirk.

Dirk knows I love him to death, right? Dirty and I go way, way back. But Dirk will be the first one to tell you Luka's better.

Interesting. That's interesting. Dirk put me in the blender at 40, barely being able to run, man. So I got nothing.

I don't think he could jump over the line, right? But he can shoot and he's smart, but you needed to get him the ball. That's the difference.

And that's part of what's changed. Like you need, almost have to have a 6'6", 6'7", 6'8" guy who can control the ball and get a shot, you know, or get shots for others because the game is so much faster and so much more skilled, right? Whereas before, you knew that there would be somebody good guarding Dirk and they would double him, but you just had to get him the ball in one of his spots and let him go to work.

Absolutely.

The game has changed. You can't just do that anymore.

Yeah, no, that, I understand that. That definitely makes a difference. You made one of the controversial moves as of late in the NBA and going out to get Kyrie Irving for a variety of reasons. I actually was talking about Kyrie Irving on podcast a couple nights ago. Dude just run and throw a left hand, run and hook. Like, oh my God.

You can't even talk about that shit 'cause it's like outta 2K, right? It's not even real.

Like, why would you do that? Like, what would entice you to try that? Like, at that moment in the game? But he is that skilled. First on time, right?

He's probably already shot that ball, you know, that same shot, maybe from not 21 feet, but from 18 or, you know, 15 feet.

Yes, he has. Kyrie is one of the most, if not the most skilled guy in the NBA. But at the time, he had been going through the things with the Jewish video, the anti-Semitic video that everyone was speaking about, that it was on his Instagram and he had been suspended with the COVID uh, not suspended, but, uh, ruled out due to the COVID vaccine and all of those things. And you took it upon yourself, you, Nico, and your staff, uh, took it upon yourselves to say, no, we, we want this guy. Like, what was the thinking behind— and then also knowing that he's a free agent and could walk, like, what was the thinking behind, uh, process of going to get Kyrie?

One, when you watch Ky back then and now, after any game, Draymond Green, he's hugging 5 guys. Yes.

Yes, he is.

You know, it's not like high five, quick hug, walk off the court.

He's hugging you like you're related. Yes, he is.

You know, and that, that's different.

And when you talk to people around him before we did the deal, nobody disliked him. Everybody loved him.

When you talk to teammates, you know, current and former, loved him.

Right? And when you asked them what the issue was, It was like, well, you know, media, you know, and Kyrie's just a caring guy and sometimes he lets that heart come through and the media doesn't appreciate it. I'm like, shit, I can deal with the media. This is Dallas. I've grown up dealing with the media. I'll take all those bullets like I've done for other guys, you know, and then Nico knows him and, you know, help him with issues.

Nico's like, this guy's great.

Everybody, you know, I know the kid. He's a good kid. He's got a great heart. Mm-hmm. Just, you know, bad situation. If COVID never happened, probably be a completely different situation, right? So we're like, okay, let's go for it. And let me just tell you, I love Ty to death. You know, the more I talk to him, he's just, he's got a heart of gold, right? And he cares about too many things, right? If he's got a problem, it's like he's too caring about too many things. Absolutely. He's the dude like when you're, when you're in college and you and your guys are talking about alcohol and getting drunk and, you know, girls, he wants to talk about world peace and the indigenous tribes of Australia. Yeah.

Right? And, you know, everything else is off limits.

Everybody else is doing their thing, right? I just wants to open up and talk about that. And when you're on social media and you're talking to the media about those things, there's no nuance in this world anymore, right?

That's a fact. They're not going to get that.

And Kai and I will talk after Hamas attacked Israel, right? And we're talking and I'm like, "What do you think, Kai?" And he's like, "Look, terrorist is wrong, right? But how can you not feel for not only the people that got slaughtered in Israel, but what's going to happen to the Gazans, right? And what's going to happen and he's not like taking sides and he's certainly against terrorism and he's like, "Clear, I'm against terrorism." But he wants to feel how other people feel. You know, he respects that pain, you know? And it's not just, you know, the Middle East, it's Australia, it's Sudan, it's, you know, American Indians in this country, it's Lakota tribe. Like I'm sending them links to documentaries on the Lakota tribe, right? He wants to learn and he wants to care about those things. And how many people do you know like that?

Yeah, that's a fact. Not many. So that's a special person.

He is.

I mean, he's somebody that when you get, you know, there's certain people when you hug them, you feel who they are.

100%.

That's Kyrie Irving.

100%. Did you take, as a Jewish man though, did you take, like, did you get a lot of backlash from like Jewish friends or Jewish family members?

Oh, man.

Because, yeah.

Yeah, no, but the minute I talked to him, I'm like, dude, I talked to him. He's not antisemitic. Yes.

I know people who are more antisemitic than he is, right? He's not.

You just gotta talk to him. And you know, but Kyrie did have to adjust, right? He had to like, we had a conversation like, look, Ky, you can't just say these things on social media or wherever, expect people to understand how you feel about them.

Yes. So you have to be a little bit more careful. And he goes, you're right, I will be.

And he has been. And he has been. It's absolutely wonderful to watch. I'm happy for Kai. We got a chance to win an Olympic medal together in 2016 and built a really good relationship. And I'm happy to see him doing what he loves, thriving at it, and not having to deal with all of the stuff that he doesn't like to deal with.

I mean, it's just the joy in his eyes.

Like he's bringing his daughter into the locker room after every game and his kids when they're there. I mean, it's just, he brings joy to what he does. And he's the first to tell you, "This is my profession." Yes.

"I want to be great at my craft.

I want to be the best all time. But I also want to be a human being because I got to live a much longer life after I'm done playing. But I want to have my tribe, right? I want to have my community. That's important to me." And, you know, we don't talk about it as much now as we did during the off-season, but, you know, just being able to communicate with him about those things. It's special. And it's like now with Ramadan, right? It's not like, okay, no, it's okay, let's make sure we have food. Niko and I have the conversation the minute that sun goes down, feed the guy.

There you go. Absolutely.

We were playing, I forget where we were playing.

Oh my God, it wasn't— anyways, he's looking, you could tell what time it was, right? And the minute he's got a timeout, he ran to the back and he came out with some food and everything. And I'm like, oh shit, right?

We gotta do this right. I didn't even think about it originally.

And it was like the first day of Ramadan. And so Nico and I talked and okay, we're gonna get this right for him. And you know, it's just those little things that when you respect a player, you know, from Luka to Kai to all the way down, you, when you respect them, they know it, right?

Yes.

And you try to do things and it helps.

No, one, it does help. And that's what makes guys want to come back and stay somewhere for their, their entire careers, for the rest of their careers. It helps 100%. Couple more questions before we get outta here. And speaking of Kai and Luka, what does this team need currently? You guys went out and got big Daniel Gafford, who I think was a steal, by the way.

Thank you.

Like he been tucked in Washington and that's been tough. Daniel Gafford is a steal. And so—

That's Nico special.

That's Nico 100% of the way, right? That was Nico.

Steal, steal.

He's like, we got it done, we got it done, right? I think we just, we gotta stay healthy like everybody, right? And just a little bit more time, you know, because we basically are changing how we play, right? So we've, now we can be vertical 48 minutes.

Yeah. And we couldn't do that before.

And so guys who were shooting threes before aren't getting quite as many rhythm shots, which has made it a little bit tougher on them, right? Because before, like with Timmy and Josh Green and Maxie, they were getting more threes, but now we're just getting lobs, right? And so our centers are putting up 25 and 14, right? It's just like we brought in Shaq, you know?

And so we've just gotta get used to that rhythm.

But, and then defensively, like, you know, you just gotta get, you've gotta get put together, right?

Yes. So everybody knows exactly how, where, and when, right?

And so, but it's coming together, right? You see it. And then, you know, like a lot of teams, we just gotta not relax. You know, when we've got, you know, you win a big game and then you play against somebody you think you should beat easy. There are no easy games in the NBA anymore.

That's a fact.

Just too much talent.

That's a fact. And I think you're ahead of the curve. When you talk about getting vertical, having bigs that can get vertical the whole game. Because the game, the game is doing a weird thing right now. As you know, the NBA game changes every 4 to 6 years dramatically. And the game is doing a weird thing right now where it's getting bigger, but it's not only is it getting bigger, it's getting more athletic and faster.

Yeah.

And y'all are covering those bases well with a big Daniel Gafford. Derrick Lively will be an All-Star in this league. Like, and you guys are covering that. Absolutely great to see.

And you gotta learn, right?

D-Live's still a rookie. Yes, yes. And here we are, but we're changing our style of play in real time. And that takes time on both ends of the court. 100%. But you know that, you know, the opportunity is there.

Yes, 100%. And with this, obviously me being a Dub and coming here, when I came here, the only thing I would hear, "What's your favorite Warriors moment?" The "We Believe" team in '07. That's it. That's all we were hearing. Me, Steph, and Klay used to laugh like, these people are just excited about a first round victory.

Like, what is going on around here?

It was a long time. Except for me, it was horrible. But lemme just tell you the best part about that series, if there was one, right?

Put aside losing, right? I would walk out to the court, right, from the, back in Oakland,, and the minute I hit the court, the whole place would start chanting, "Q-Bin sucks!

Q-Bin sucks!

Q-Bin sucks!" And I was like, "Why would they?" I'm like, "Did they put something on the Jumbotron?" And then I'd walk out to see if they did it again.

"Q-Bin sucks! Q-Bin sucks!" That was my highlight.

By the way, I get that in every arena I walk into outside of I get a little bit in Detroit because there's some Michigan fans, but not really. So outside of Chase, Detroit, and Boston fans can't boo me really anymore. They stopped. They stopped. But other than that, I get it everywhere I go.

Everywhere.

Last question. I appreciate you taking the time. You openly spoke about, and you just mentioned it earlier, the guys that you've lost and Steve Nash being one of them. —Um, how did that propel you as an owner and help you grow? Y'all, I think y'all offered Nash somewhere around $9 million a year for 4 years, and he got $63.

Yeah, I still got the pad where I took the notes where Steve called me to give me that last chance, right? Where I wrote down "Mike Bibby money." No lie, I've got it written down on that sheet of paper. "Mike Bibby money" is what he wanted, which was like the max out at the time, which sounds so insane right now, right?

Yes.

But it was more, you know, that Steve had only played like 28, 29 minutes a game that previous year. And we were worried about the injuries.

Yes.

And so just, that was it in a nutshell.

Okay.

And so it wasn't any disrespect to his game. And honestly, I think that propelled Steve, right? The fact that we let him go and et cetera, et cetera. And two-time MVP, great guy, love him to death. You know, we're friends again. And, but yeah, it was a mistake. The biggest mistake I ever made with the Mavs.

Oh, that's, I mean, but does Dirk become the Dirk that he became if Steve still was there? Does Steve become Steve?

Yeah, but I'd rather take my chances with those two guys together.

I agree. I agree. I definitely agree.

I screwed up really, really, really bad in hindsight.

No, we all do. Mark, I can't thank you enough. This is an honor for me. I think back, back to that day. And by the way, one thing I can admit, you were right. I was dumb as shit and didn't know business how I thought I knew business at that time.

I was just fucking with you 'cause it was Michigan State. And people were killing on me, right? Like it was something else.

I was just like, "No, it's just Big Ten." But listen, I look back at some of the statements I would make back then about business. And I'd be like, "Dude, you had no clue what you were talking about. And you thought you did." It's even like, like, not to throw a straight, but it is what it is. To see Caleb Williams come out like, whatever team drafts me, I want ownership in the team. When I saw him say that, I was like, that's how I used to look when I would make some of these statements. Like, it just doesn't make sense.

I still say a lot of stupid shit, but you know what?

If you're saying stupid shit, you're trying new shit, right? This is true. And that's not a bad thing.

So I can live with my mistakes, man. But yeah.

No, I appreciate it. That to me was a big moment. And when you said that, I didn't necessarily take it like bad. I was just like, hmm, let me look deeper into that. And as I have, boy, were you right and I was far off.

Yo, yo, I wish you were in the league when Phil Jackson and I would go at it, right? 'Cause then it was pre-social media and he would give me shit in the newspaper or whatever.

Then I would go right back at him, right?

I called him my bucket boy. And I called him, you know, Shaq and Kobe and the band of merry minimums.

So, and I would go hard at it because it was so much fun because you would just talk to the beat reporter, the beat reporter would like take it and run with it.

And there was no, you know, it'd be on the internet on a webpage somewhere, but there was no social media to put it out immediately. So, it was a different day, but it was fun.

I mean, so if you ever talk to Shaq, ask him about Shaq Albert, right?

Shaq Albert.

—So you remember Fat Albert, you know?

Yes.

Hey, hey, hey, Fat Albert.

I made a video, I made a cartoon where we put Shaq's head on Fat Albert and we was like, hey, hey, hey, Shaq Albert. And we showed it right before he would shoot free throws. And Shaq would just crack up, you know? And so I can't, you can't get away with that stuff anymore, but I used to just push every button that I could.

Oh man, that is amazing. And that, my friend, is me in a nutshell. I push every button that I can. I can't thank you enough, Mark. This is an honor. Absolute pleasure. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with myself, with our fan base. First owner that we've had on the show. Thank you so much. I truly appreciate it. And all of my dumb shit that I said, I appreciate you never taking it personal.

Never, man. It's the same both ways. My skin is really, really thick, right? So I don't care.

I love it. I love it.

I had a lot of fun. It was a great interview.

You did a great job.

Thank you so much. I appreciate you, Mark.

Yes, sir.

Go Duz. We'll see y'all soon.

Next week. Yep.