Mavericks crush Celtics in NBA Finals Game 4, reaction w/ Derek Fisher | Draymond Green Show

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All right, welcome. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show. We are back with another episode of Champs Only, and today we have a 5-time champion. So I'll just shut up. Like, it's levels. You know, Shaq always talk about the G14 classification and it being levels to different things. And quite frankly, this isn't a level I can really speak on. However, we got 5-time NBA champion, Los Angeles Laker legend, none other than the one and only Derek Fisher. D-Fish, what's going on, my brother?

Man, Dre, appreciate you, man. You are closer than most, so, and you still ticking. So keep that thing going and keep striving for it, man. You spoke of Shaq. I wouldn't have 3 of mine without him. So it's definitely levels to it.

Absolutely. No, I appreciate you, man. Number one, I appreciate you coming on the show. It's an honor for me. You know, I grew up, I always tell people, I grew up like as a Shaquille O'Neal fan. Like I was, my first jersey, basketball jersey was Orlando Magic Shaquille jersey. I had the Orlando Magic nightlight. I had the zip-up onesie Orlando Magic. Like I was a Shaquille fan. Obviously Shaq left and joined the Lakers. So I feel like I've watched your entire career. That's for real. 'Cause Shaq went to the Lakers, like I'm cheering for the Lakers, I'm everything, like Shaq's over. And I feel like I've watched your entire career. And as, no, I just wanna say, as a kid who didn't know, have a clue of what I was really watching, you know, we watched the game and you love the game, right? Like you love Shaq and you love Kobe. And like, when I think back to being that young kid watching y'all play, what I knew is just like, Fish make big shots. Like, I don't care what else you talk, Fish make big shots.

Yeah.

And when I go back and I watch as an adult, as someone who actually understands the game of basketball, what you provided for that team from a leadership pers— like actually going through the grind And like knowing what it takes and then like to look back, man, the leadership you provided for that team, the selflessness you provided, the defense, the toughness, you were so much to that team that the, I'll call myself the naked eye who really didn't know what was going on. Like you didn't have a clue. You're stupid like me. Like, man, D Fish hit big shots. Like, because that's what you can see. And like to look back. Yeah. And understand and know your impact on the game. Number one, I just wanna say thank you for being who you are to the game of basketball. But number two, as somebody—

Thank you.

In your position, what was it like for you going through those championship runs? And when you're going through those championship runs, you know you don't quite get the credit for all the things that you're actually doing for that team.

Yeah, yeah. No, well, first of all, thank you for, you know, breaking that down. I did not know the history of like how much you had really respected and followed Shaq and then followed him from Orlando to LA. And I followed him from Little Rock to LA myself. I mean, he, you know, him coming in free agency a couple weeks after the draft changed my life forever, man. And so, I appreciate you saying those things. And you know, honestly for me, I think as a kid, like as you mentioned, like when you're watching the players that you love and respect the most, you start to internalize and visualize like what success looks like for that person or the team that he plays on. And I was a Magic Johnson fan growing up.

Wow.

My all-time favorite. But I knew I wasn't 6'9". I knew I wasn't going to be Magic Johnson, but winning was like, that was going to be my superpower. I knew I wasn't gonna be the guy with the longest wingspan, the most height. I wasn't the most talented or skilled guy. But in those moments when my ego wanted to tell me to try to do more myself, I would have to try to pull myself back as a man and say, but bro, you want to win more than anything because that's the only way you're actually going to get the recognition that you feel like you do deserve.

Yes.

People got to look back like you said and really see the impact that you provided that was not just statistical. And I mean, those are real-time conversations throughout the season because there were nights where As you know, it's like, bro, don't play me. Don't think I can't do more.

That part.

It's just, you're choosing not to do more in order to best allow for the team to be successful.

Absolutely. And I know for me, having Steph, having a Klay, where it's like, if nobody else appreciates you, those guys like go to bat for me. Those guys appreciate me. And so on those nights where it's like, man, I know I did way more than anybody's ever gonna say, than anybody's ever gonna give me credit for. On those nights where you feel like it don't matter, it's the support and the love from those guys for me that kept me going. What was that like for you from Shaq, from Kobe? Like on those nights that it's like, yo, I know the impact I just had, but nobody out there is gonna say it. What was Shaq and Kobe like from that aspect?

Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think they had, you know, two different perspectives on that. Like, Kobe and I came in as rookies the same year and our relationship was forged on those stay ready days.

Yes.

You know, we playing full court one-on-one, you know, we lifting weights together, we doing conditioning together, and we really built that sweat equity with each other. And he saw where I came from. He didn't play a lot his first year, I didn't play a lot my first year. So there was that commonality we had that by the time we got to those championship years, he had seen my grind. So he appreciated all the little things that I had done along the way. He knew I could do more 'cause I mean, every now and then I would score when we played one-on-one. So he knew I could do a little more than I showed in the game at times, but he respected the impact that I had in all the intangible ways. And then I think for Shaq, like I started to earn that trust from him in my second season. Nick Van Exel had some knee issues and he was out for a couple weeks and we went out on a big road trip, Pacers, Knicks at the Garden, kind of like an East Coast swing. And you know, Shaq got double teamed against everybody we played basically. Yeah, yeah. And in my first game as a starter, I remember an interview before the game with Brian Burwell who worked with TBS at the time. And he interviewed me, you know, he knows I'm nervous. My first time starting the NBA. And I was like, Brian, look man, I don't care if I have 2 points and 20 assists, I just hope we win.

Mm-hmm.

I ended up having 20 points and 2 assists because Shaq was kicking it out when he was getting double teamed. And that's when I started trusting that I could make big shots in the fourth quarter. I knew Shaq trusted me after that experience. And then that just carried throughout the rest of our career. But on nights when I didn't make big shots, because he knew I could, he appreciated the fact that I didn't try to do too much. And I always made sure the big dog got fed so that he would protect the house. And that was our relationship the whole time. Nice.

That's incredible, man. It just brings so many similarities for me because like I said, the confidence. When Steph say to me like, "Yo, shoot." Like, "Let that one go." It's like, "Oh, all right, like that." Like, it takes the confidence that much higher knowing that the guy, like Klay, like, "Yo, why you ain't shoot that one?" Like, the guys, they like, "Yo, we want you shooting the basketball." What that does for the confidence is absolutely incredible. But this is Champs Only, so we must talk about some, about obviously a team that you played for, Dallas Mavericks.

Yeah.

And the Boston Celtics.

Briefly, super briefly.

Very brief.

It was brief.

Very, very brief. Had a cup of coffee, I like to say. Yeah, for real. Game 4. Dallas stays alive. Shocked me, I must say. You expect them to come out and play hard like they did. Did not expect them to come out and get up 50.

Yeah.

Which was—

Anybody saw that coming either.

Crazy to see. But just getting into it, just straight into it. Like, what was your, what did you take away from that game? Very lopsided, but what was your initial takeaway And just seeing Game 4.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I did feel like Dallas could possibly win the game tonight, but not by 50. You know, I, there's no way that I anticipated it would be that lopsided of a victory. I was asked by one of our parents on my high school team that I coached, like, what did I think about the game? And I said, you know what? Like, I do think Boston will struggle in this fourth game because they haven't been at that doorstep yet. They haven't been at 3 wins and they, they see that fourth one right over the finish line, but it's still so far away, bro. As you know, like getting that fourth one is oftentimes the, literally the hardest one that you've ever played in.

Absolutely.

And so I thought they would struggle with that, you know, mentally, wouldn't necessarily understand how to play in that type of game. But I definitely didn't see Dallas smacking them up like that. My biggest takeaways, I thought that they played faster. And that to me was the biggest difference. I remember watching, 'cause sometimes faster can also equal greater force, right?

Yes.

And I remember watching last year when you talked to Steve, Yeah. And, and how you talk about how he always goes forces first.

Yes.

Like X's and O's is cool, but it's a fight and whoever brings the force to the fight first normally is able to impose their will. And Dallas did that basically tonight. And Boston thought that they could ease into that and it, it was too late, man. But it was over before it really got started.

Yeah, that was very interesting. Like you said, Steve is always like, "Yo, our number one adjustment is our force." And that was Dallas. Like, yeah, they played faster, but the points in the paint, like—

Yeah.

You looked up at halftime, I think Dallas was 5 for 15 from 3. Boston Celtics was 5 for 19 from 3. But if you looked at the points in the paint, it was like 34 to 12. I think at that point Dallas was out-rebounding them by maybe 15 or 16 rebounds. That's all a force thing. Now—

Yeah.

My question to you, I have a question because obviously we've both been in the position. When you look at that game and you say they beat them by 48 points, when you're Boston, Are you coming back into that game now like, we know that was a fluke, let's go ahead and close this out? Or are you a little shaky like, man, I ain't know they can do that to us. Like almost like you took a big hit if you boxing. Like what's your mindset now if you're Boston?

Yeah, I think psychologically, I know it's talked about a lot, like you, when it's a blowout like that, it's almost easier to kind of get over and flush and move on from than like a close one. I, I do agree with that in theory, but I do think sometimes what happens, not that Boston didn't anticipate that Dallas was capable of beating them, but I think sometimes what happens, and you tell me what you think, in a blowout game like tonight, Tim Hardaway starts seeing the ball go in the basket. And, and when that starts to happen, now when you go to Boston and you need a 4th or 5th guy, Kyrie, Luka, Derrick Jones Jr., PJ, Lively, and then all of a sudden Tim Hardaway can run on 9, 10 points in 1 minute, that starts to change the situation a little bit. So, I'm not saying, I, I think the Celtics will obviously bring the requisite force to Game 5.

Mm-hmm.

But Dallas for sure is a little more confident and they feel like, well, we're definitely gonna bring the force as well. And we got Tim Hardaway Jr. feeling a little better. Dante Exum saw the ball go in the basket a little bit. He's starting to feel more comfortable in the series. All right. I think Boston will still close it out, but Dallas definitely, Dallas feels better. I don't know if Boston feels surprised like that they couldn't beat them, but I do think Dallas found some things that they might be able to take to the Garden.

That's just— That's, that's why this is Champs Only because listen, if you have not won a championship, I don't want to hear you talk about winning a championship or what happens in championship games. I quite frankly, Don't have the time for it. But this is the whole reason for Champs Only because when I'm watching that game, Fish, I'm sitting there watching that game and I'm like, everybody's probably turned their TV off and you know, on about their day. Like, oh, it's a blowout. And I'm sitting there watching that game and I'm like, yo, Tim Hardaway done got going. This could be trouble for Boston because now—

Yeah.—

in true fashion, J-Kidd gonna go to Tim Hardaway, probably first, second guy off the bench, just to see if it's something there. Like to see if like, oh, if we found something, did Tim find his jump shot? If Tim found his jump shot, that's one more guy that can pull that defense out some. They're not plugging, they're not playing boxing elbows when we got Luke and Kyrie trying to drive. He can extend that defense some. And I'm sitting there watching that game, And I'm like, yo, this is a big mistake. They let Tim Hardaway get going. And sure enough, there are 45 points. What play does Jake here run out of the timeout? Back screen, down screen, Tim Hardaway 3.

Yep.

And as you know, and then on the flip side, Peyton Pritchard was out there airballing, you know? And so, like, I don't, people do not understand the mindset. Like I always tell our guys, if there's ever a blowout, I go to our guys who's going in the game and I say, listen, let anybody score, but you cannot let one or two guys that you know, like, oh, that guy's good enough to actually change the series. Like, let those other three guys score.

Mm-hmm.

Because if they score, those guys can't come do anything in the series. But there's two guys out there right now that if they score a few buckets, they're gonna feel better about them. They're gonna feel good about themselves. And now we gonna have to put that fire out. And we don't want to have to put a fire out that we haven't had to put out all of this time. And they let Tim Hardaway get going. And man, I think that's trouble.

Yeah. And I mean, you know, sometimes people wonder like, okay, the other team took their starters out. Why isn't coach taking his starters out already? And Steve does it. There's other coaches that do it. He'll leave y'all in for another 2, 3 minutes.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause nah, bro, we don't just like sprinkle some water on this fire. We putting this fire all the way out.

Right.

We're not gonna let it get going because we don't want them taking that psychology, that mindset into the next game. We want them thinking they have no shot of winning the next game, even if they are, you know, going to come out with the greatest force or whatever. So it's, it is part of the chess match for sure in, in these series.

100%, man. That's, that's gold right there. Champs only, baby. That is gold. There's been a lot of talk over the last 2 days about Luka's defense, and quite frankly, I think it's bullshit because— he's not defending any differently than he has before. And if I'm honest, I've seen in pockets of this playoff, like run for them, in pockets, him defend at the highest level I've ever seen him defend before.

Yes, no question.

And it's always like, oh, they're down 3-0, here's our chance to attack him. Here's our chance to attack his defense. And I hate shit like that. Y'all ain't attack him when he had 40, 20, and 15 on somebody. Don't attack his defense now because it's the obvious thing that your little basketball brains can talk about being like, I don't like that. And like I said, I think at times throughout this playoffs he's been at an elite level defensively by his standards.

Mm-hmm.

What do you, what, what, number one, what do you think of what they've made of his, of his defense over the last couple days? But number two also, where you need Luka to be from, from a player standpoint. Obviously you play with championship players, but also from a coach standpoint, where, where, where you need him to be on that side of the floor.

Yeah, no, I, I, I understand exactly what you mean about the larger kind of narrative around like, let's single something out that has always been there maybe, but we're gonna make a big deal about it now. Luka's never been all the NBA defense. So it's not something that we're surprised about that he isn't consistently elite.

Yeah.

But to the point you made in this playoff run, you have seen him take 2, 3 steps forward in putting the effort into that end of the floor that we had never seen in the past.

Absolutely.

Ever.

Absolutely.

And I think in one of his post-game interviews, maybe against the Clippers or OKC. He actually jokingly said, 'cause they talked about his defense and it was pretty good in that game. And he was like, hey, I mean, it's the playoffs, like, and I wanna win. So I am gonna put a little more into it now than I normally would. So I think he has improved.

Yep.

But of course, in order to win it all, Right? Like there are times where you have to become something that maybe you haven't been as much before. And he, but, but, and he's showing a willingness to try and be that.

Mm-hmm.

But you can't ask him to go 40, 15, 9, and guard the other team's best players and rebound and take charges. It, it doesn't work that way. There's a reason why. Yeah. Steph has always been a better defender than people have given him credit for. Mm-hmm. But he can't guard the other team's best player for 30 minutes a game.

Absolutely not.

That, that's not in alignment with the role that he actually needs to play best. Mm-hmm. So I think Luka has improved. It's something I think he'll continue to learn and grow from. I think this experience, assuming they still come up short, As you know, once you kind of get a little taste of it and you kind of start to understand, damn, I thought I had enough, but I really don't. I thought I was given enough, but I really wasn't.

Yep.

I thought I was sliding my feet, but the tape don't lie. Like, now I gotta live with this until next season.

Yep.

My guess is he'll be a better defender throughout the regular season next year to continue to show that commitment that he's willing to do it 'cause he's probably gonna feel like we have a legit chance to win an NBA championship if we keep this group together. So as a teammate, I would of course want him to be better in situations, timely defensive effort and energy. And the same thing to me as a coach for my best players that I know they carry the water so far, bro. Like— Yes. We can't ask him to also pour everybody cup and serve them and make sure that other people are never uncomfortable. Like we have to also have his back. So that means if Luka is Kobe and I'm Kyrie, like I have to do more on defense to actually make up for the fact that I can't ask Kobe to chase Ray Allen off staggers, baseline screens, screen to screener actions and go play offense the way we need him to play offense in order to beat the Celtics. I have to take the challenge of chasing Ray Allen. So that's, that's almost more on me than it is Kobe. And so that's—

Absolutely.

For Dallas, PJ Washington and Derrick Jones Jr. have been playing that role. So now, okay, can Kyrie play better defense? Can Tim Hardaway Jr. play better defense? Can other guys do more to cover up for the fact that we can't ask Luka to be the MVP on defense too, man. He basically third in the league in MVP overall. Like, that's not really fair all the way around in my, in my opinion. So that's a long way of saying I would expect him to be able to give us more when necessary, but there's no way I'm asking him to become all NBA defense when that's not really who he is and we don't necessarily need him to be in order to win.

No, I agree 100%. I think it's garbage that, uh, the lazy folks on TV try to pinpoint it out all of a sudden, like, oh, it's his defense, like, it's his defense the reason they're losing the game. And it's like, bro, he's playing more defense than he ever played. Why did they get here all of a sudden and now it's his defense that's losing them the game? Like, I think that's lazy. I think that's garbage. His defense hadn't been great, that's cool, but come on with that narrative.

So yeah, you can literally, you can, you can say free throws more so than, than defense.

Yep.

Like he, and, and, but he historically at times in late games, maybe due to fatigue or, you know, just from a mindset perspective, like just a miss a free throw or two that not because he's not a great shooter.

Yeah.

He just happens to miss him. He missed one late in the OKC game. That almost cost him a game. So you could point to that even more so than the defense to say, you know, as a something you want to point out. But anyway, I know we could go on forever.

For sure. No, I— and you know what I always tell my guys, like, for any guy that's a little less of a defender, right? Like, yo, just don't give up a straight line drive. Like, if you can make him literally just take a small veer off the path that he's trying to go on, just a small veer, I can get there and help and cover it up for you. Like, if you just give him a straight line drive, it's hard for me to not overhelp and give up something crazy over here because I overhelp. So like, just give me one slide. Like, if you give me one slide that you're still in front and he get past you on the second slide, great, no problem. I'll be there, I'll cover my man and I'll cover him too. Like, don't— Yeah.— not for you to worry about. Yeah.

You have to know that about your teammate. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Like you understand your teammate's strengths and weaknesses and how to cover up for those things. And so Phil Jackson was one of the guys that, like he would talk about Toni Kukoc when they were in Chicago and how like they started to understand, like if they saw Toni on the island with some of the greatest players to ever play the game, they weren't gonna just leave him over there.

Yes.

Slide, make him turn. You know, make them use a change of direction, and then now we can provide some support. I personally think, yeah, Luka could be better, but he has put way more possessions together on the defensive end where he's at least turned the guy a couple times, or at least forced him to change direction a little bit to still get downhill. You know? Yeah, we could definitely point it out, but—

And how much more can you ask for? And then at that point, if he does that, if Luka slides his feet once, slides his feet twice, make a guy turn direction, and y'all not there to help, that's on they defense. That ain't on Luka. Like, that's on your defense because you supposed to be there to cover for him anyway. You know the way I look at it? Why could, and like, Steph got so much better defensively. Now Steph actually became one of the better defenders on our team. Which if you watched him in 2015, you would've never thought by 2022 he's one of the best defenders or 2020, like one, he's one of the best defenders on our team. And like he became that. But my thing is the way I viewed it for anyone that needs some help on how you should view this, this man covers up for me, for me on some, some things offensively.

Mm-hmm.

Then I better be there to cover up for him some things defensively.

Yeah.

Like, 'cause that's how this thing works. Where I may fall a little short of the glory, you pick me up there. And where you may fall a little bit short of the glory, I'm gonna pick you up there. So it's definitely on they guys to protect Luka more. Luka, that does not, that does not say, Luka, you don't have to try. No, you, everyone must give effort.

Yeah.

And if you give a little bit of effort, those guys, for sure better be there.

Yeah. And in game 5, he probably, he going to have the best defensive game he's ever played in order to even have a chance to win.

Absolutely.

That's gonna be the reality of it. He will be tested on that end of the floor.

Absolutely. Do you think, 'cause I thought Dallas were great defensively. All their rotations was there, even had Luka on a couple trap the boxes and going vertical. Uh, I thought the defense was great. Do you think it's possible for Dallas to repeat the defensive performance that they had tonight?

Yes, because I believe, you know, there are times where when there's no other choice, right? Like you, you feel like you've been doing it, but I'm sure the coaches put on tape, the closeouts just weren't good enough in game 3. You know, the rotations weren't sharp enough. You didn't give your body up in that situation. You missed a box out. You missed a communication opportunity to make sure that your teammate understood what you needed him to do.

Mm-hmm.

And so they, they internalized those things and went out and executed. Obviously at home, there's a also a greater sense of pride, you know, in, in making sure certain things happen in front of your home fans, family, et cetera. But I think they can take, they will take that same mentality to Boston. I think the question will be more, will Boston be better?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And you know, what we all want is for both teams to be the best of themselves on Monday night.

Yeah.

And we have an epic game and whoever wins is who wins, but both teams at their best, Dallas, Taking their defense to Boston, effort, force, energy, uh, and then Boston at the Garden shooting the ball better. Their defense will probably be better. Um, Porzingis is still going to be missed. I mean, the Celtics were able to win Game 3 without him, but as the series goes on, when you're missing a player of that caliber, it will start to catch up at some point. Al Horford foul trouble changes everything.

Yep.

You know, without Porzingis available. So there, there are still some interesting storylines, but I, I think Dallas will bring their best selves to the game. I just, I think we all feel though that when Boston is at their best, there's, there's still a, there's still a gap there.

Yeah. Their better is definitely better.

Yeah.

Than, than Dallas for sure. So with that being said, and we'd love to hit a couple more topics with you, but with that being said, give us your prediction for Game 5.

Oof, man, it's a tough one. I don't think Boston feels that, you know, you have, we have, we played in some games like home games where you're up maybe 3-2. And you feel a little bit more pressure and anxiety that doesn't allow you to quite come out and play as relaxed and free as you need to be able to play. And that sometimes leads to a slow start by the home team.

Yeah.

And that then, if Tim Hardaway subs in quick and makes 2, 3, 3s, Luka is aggressive, you know, right at the start. And all of a sudden Boston, after losing by 48, is down by 10 in the first 5 minutes.

Yeah.

You know, that cycle can start to some degree. With that being said, I, I, I think Boston will close it out on Monday night. I don't know what it'll look like. I don't know if it'll be a Boston Avalanche of 13 outta 26 from 3, or I mean for them, they gonna attempt 43. So they, I don't know if it'll be an 18 outta 40 type of 3-point night. Oftentimes, man, trying to win that last one, it's gonna be ugly and you gonna have to be—

It's never gonna be pretty. It just never work. I don't know why it doesn't work, but it never works.

It doesn't. It just doesn't. That it could happen on the road. Like when, when Steph went and dropped 50 in Sacramento, that's more likely to happen on the road than at home. It's just different. It really is. Like those great, great performances oftentimes, you know, Michael Jordan with the flu game. LeBron in Detroit.

Game 7. LeBron in game 7 versus us. Kyrie, LeBron.

It's more likely to happen on the road than at home. So I do think, you know, if Boston starts a little clunky.

Yeah.

You know, they could start to feel a little something, but I, I think they'll throw this one away tonight. I think they'll close it out on Monday. I, I have no idea if what the score will be, but I, I just feel like Boston is better and, and they'll win Monday.

I love that. I think, you know, it's interesting because I always say we get to a spot where during the series it's like, oh, we got them figured out now. Like, we good.

Like, we got it.

And Derrick Lively said today, he said, we think we got them figured out now. And he said this before them, like way well before them winning the game, like in the first quarter. He's like, yeah, we actually think we got them figured out now. And then took on and went, For your rookie to say that means y'all been discussing this.

Mm-hmm.

And then y'all go on and win by 48 points. Do I think you're, even if you got it figured out, you're gonna win by 40, they didn't win by 48, but they got it by 48.

Right.

But that you're getting up by 48, even if you have something figured out, I don't necessarily believe that. But I do think there is something to say for Lively saying, No, we got them figured out in the first quarter. And then the game that happened happened. So in saying that, I expected more of this Dallas team anyway than the Dallas team that we definitely saw in the first couple games. Um, but it is tough.

Tough.

Going back for game 5, down 3 to 1, where they're like, Yo, they were supposed to do that. We went and did what we supposed to do. We won our one on the road. They did what they supposed to do. Now let's go close it out. Because, and the reason it's tough, because Boston is the better team. Like, I don't think there's anyone in the world that doesn't think Boston is the better team. And like you said, if they play their best and Dallas play their best, Boston wins. However, for a team like Boston, that's gotten close and not been able to get over the hump. You can shit the bed.

Yeah.

Like, you can. And so with that being said, I think this is a little more like Minnesota versus Dallas where we all thought Minnesota was done and then Dallas, You know, Minnesota had a big game. I'm gonna say this is a lot like that. We thought Dallas was in the can. They're a prideful team. You don't get to the NBA Finals without being a prideful team. And they came out and played the way they supposed to play. But Tim Hardaway now gotta go on the road and hit some shots. A little bit different. Hitting them shots on the road. So, you know, I think it's something to say for them going inside, throwing the ball to Gafford, making it a point saying, we're gonna out-physical y'all. I just don't know if the Al physical gonna work in Boston in front of that crowd. And I gotta go with Boston closing it out in game 5.

Yeah. They, they, they, they in game 3, they, you could tell they made a concerted effort to activate JT defensively.

Yes.

So instead of, instead of hiding, not hiding 'cause he can't defend, but essentially like conserving his energy and, and having him guard Gafford so that they could switch pick and roll. Dallas was going away from that the first couple games.

Yes.

Because Boston is so effective in their switching. But then there was an adjustment made where they decided, you know what, let's actually bring Jayson Tatum into the action and attack him and force him to have to work on the defensive end. I thought that took some of his legs a little bit. They did it a little bit in game 2. Saw him in game 3. They still obviously closed the game out, but I think that's something they feel like they may have figured out. And so when he is guarding Gafford, they're gonna post him and dip into his legs a little bit, burn that energy and, and try to wear him down over the course of the game. But I agree with you. I, I somehow, this is just, you know, me and us talking like that, if they don't remember you guys closing them out in '22 at home.

Mm-hmm.

And like literally tell themselves on Monday night, I don't care what happens tonight, bro. We are not walking off this court without a victory. There, there is no way they are beating us on our home court. And we have to go back to Dallas and play Game 6. It's not happening.

Right.

And then whatever they do from there, it may not look pretty or whatever, but it, it just has to be a decision. And I, and you would think that this is the year, you know, they've been close, they've had some opportunities, you know, you guys' experience and, and ability to understand those moments in that series and take advantage of them. Like they're that team now.

Yes.

Against a team that hasn't been there.

Absolutely.

You know, and so I, one would tell you they should finish it off on Monday night, but these young guys are different, you know? Yes, they are. So Luka Magic could happen, Kyrie special, you never know.

That's a fact, that's a fact. By the way, that's why this is Champs Only again, because you all just wouldn't have never known, you would've never noticed how they were going away from Jayson Tatum and bringing him in. And you know, when, when, when you've been through these series and like you understand how important the adjustments is, like, I love having these conversations because for me, as someone who thinks I know a bunch about the game, like I continue to learn and having these conversations. And so it's always fun for me. So number one, I just wanna say thank you for the education. Thank you. That you just gave out on the Draymond Green show.

Nah, nah.

Because myself, for me, I just learned some things and I am excited about it. Check this out though. I was recently on the Big Fella Podcast, Shaqstradamus, Shaq Diesel, the Big Shaq-tist, you name it, the Big Aristotle. I was on his podcast.

Yeah.

He was on the show. And we discussed the '01 Lakers versus the '17 Warriors. Now, quite frankly, if I'm honest, I hate when people have these discussions because it's like, these people have these discussions and it's no merit to the conversation or anything.

Right.

A bunch of hypotheticals or what ifs. However, I hypothetically love fucking having these conversations with guys that's been a part of it. And so let's discuss this. Like, me and Shaq obviously disagreed on Who will win the series? I quite frankly got us beating y'all in 5, but like, how you see this series going, Fish?

Yeah, no, I mean, obviously, you know, it's champs only, you have to respect champions. So—

Absolutely.

I don't, you know, in 5, I think is, you know, I don't know if you got the Lobos in there with you or what's going on, but in 5, I don't know about that. I mean, champs against champs, it should be a battle. You know, it should go to game 7. It's like you said, it's always fun even though it's not real.

Absolutely. Right?

To just talk about the possibilities and the matchups and you know, you obviously always should think your team is better than anybody else's team that—

Absolutely.

You know, that got it done in that way. You know, I, it's hard to explain to people how physically dominant Shaq really was. Like, I think people see the videos and they, they see the backboard smash and all of that, but I don't know if there's a recognition of like the way we now run pick and roll to put pressure on the rim to create threes.

Yes.

Shaq literally was every pick and roll you ever try to run. You could just throw it to him to get the ball to the rim.

Yes.

Like it, it—

Wow.

And the, and the most efficient shots in basketball are at the rim, corner threes, free throws. And we got all of that because of him in theory. And then obviously Kobe was able to do a lot, but am I naive to think that like, who's guarding Kevin Durant? Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

Like Rick Fox was amazing defensively. Maybe that's a cover that he could figure out 'cause Rick was physical and, you know, but KD was KD. Obviously Steph in his prime, how elite you guys were defensively, you know, like we were, which with our '01 team, we were fairly predictable because of Shaq's dominance.

Yes.

So, you know what I mean? So defensively, you know, you guys definitely would've been able to scheme some things and try to, you know, maybe front and back him and send a guy over on the baseline side on if he was fronted as the ball was in the air. But you know, Shaq literally has changed people's dental work, bro.

Like— Crazy.

That just no double team, triple team, anything could, could fathom. So all of that to say, to me, when you talk about like the greatest teams ever, it's gotta be a coin toss.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it, it probably would depend on who has home court.

Mm-hmm. That helps.

And it depends on what rules are we playing.

That's true.

Cause if we playing it today, if I could foul Steph the way I play defense, Hey, we might have a chance because I'm beating them up. If I can hold and grab like we could in '01, compared to— what? We might be able to guard you.

But Fish, I may have to get thrown out of one of the games because I gotta come get you off my man with a crazy screen one of these days. I can't just let you grab my man.

For sure.

No, but honestly, man, for me, um, Like, you know, y'all, y'all were, y'all were the golden standard. Like we grew up watching y'all and the Spurs dominate everything. For me as a kid growing up in the state of Michigan, obviously, you know, seeing the Detroit Pistons and their dominance, and I know they were able to win one championship, but they were going to conference finals each and every year, couple finals. Like, and that was kind of the standard and, and, Like the brand of basketball that y'all played then is obviously totally different than the brand of basketball that's played now. And you know, when I look at like the rules that y'all played by, quite frankly, if I'm honest, I don't think we could have beat y'all at those rules. Like no chance. Like we play a totally different game. However, if the rules are, are how they are today, like I think there's a chance y'all could keep up with us. Cause you can't grab, Yeah. So now guys just moving around, it's speed, it's a bunch of, and with those rules, size becomes less important because you almost protected from the sides, you know? And so it's a very interesting thing nonetheless, man. I think, you know, just to be in that, for me, to be in a conversation of the teams like I grew up watching, like the Lakers, the Bulls, like, The Pistons, the Spurs.

Draymond Green.

Like to be in the conversation with those teams, to me, is always mind-blowing because those are the teams, like, as a basketball— like I was the kid that went to sleep with my TV on. I slept the whole night with it on. And it's on ESPN all night, SportsCenter. Like, I ate, breathed, and you know what else? Basketball, like NBA basketball. And so just to be mentioned with those teams, for me, is more of an honor than I could ever imagine.

Yep, same here. That's why I like, I refuse to kind of try to fall into the like, oh yeah, well we would've and this and that. 'Cause just to even be in the conversation is amazing to begin with.

Absolutely.

And like, you have to show respect, man, to teams that have got it. Like I got asked about how I'm gonna feel if the Celtics and/or when the Celtics do win the title. As a former Laker. And I'm like, well, yeah, of course, you know, I would want the Lakers to win as much as possible. But the way that I watched, I mean, I had 2 years in Golden State, but I'm not part of the Warriors fabric in the way that you guys are.

Absolutely.

But I can watch it and respect it and cherish greatness.

Mm-hmm.

And teams that win titles found a level of greatness in that season that nobody else did.

Facts.

And I, I can't hate on that. I might not love it, but I'm not hating on it.

Facts. You always gotta respect a champion. I always say that. Before we get outta here, I know you're a WNBA basketball fan, obviously, with the past, being the coach in the WNBA and knowing some of the, some of the great talent that's in the WNBA. What do you make of this massive rise in the popularity of, of the WNBA? And I think we're starting to know more and more of the players, which I think is huge. But what do you make of this current rise in the popularity of the game?

I mean, I, I think it's amazing, man. I, I don't, I don't even wanna say long overdue. Like every, everything is about timing. You know, it's about different variables aligning. In certain ways and similar to the men's game, it takes specific players, not just great players, but specific players at specific times that create a level of interest and intrigue and greatness in their performance that brings people to the game in a way that, not because they're, Draymond Green was amazing.

Mm-hmm.

George Gervin was outstanding. Oscar Robertson was that dude. George Mikan was crazy.

Yeah.

Havlicek, Bill Walton. We just lost Bill Walton. We just lost Jerry West. Like those guys were as good as it gets. But the timing of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

Yeah.

Coming into the league after playing in the NCAA title game, some of the underlying social things around a white player and a Black player, Yep. Like you're seeing a little bit of that with Angel Reese and Draymond Green.

Yes.

And so it brings forth this conversation around like, there was a lot of discomfort in the '80s and there was a lot of assumption that white people were fans of the Celtics and Black people and minorities were fans of the Lakers. And there was this divide that was created as though it was Black against white when it really was Lakers fans against Celtics fans.

Yes.

And that's okay. And so I think the popularity of the game, um, it deserves it. We all need to continue to invest in it. Um, I think as men, we have to continue to do more, uh, with our platforms, with our time, whatever we can do, um, to not just talk about it, but like try to positively influence it and impact it. So that our daughters and our nieces and all the little girls that are watching this generation of player can grow up with this the same way we watched our greats before us and start to see themselves in those situations. So we, we have to prop this league up and make sure it continues to grow.

Mm-hmm.

Of course, Caitlin Clark deserves a ton of the credit because of who she is. But even when you turn the game on to watch her, you better watch what A'ja Wilson's doing.

That's killing. A'ja, by the way, on the way to being the GOAT for me, but that's—

Oh my gosh. You better watch what she's doing. You know, if you've watched in the past, I mean, Candace Parker just retired, but GOAT, right? If you know Lisa Leslie, like the history of, This game is littered with great women basketball players. And so the rise will also bring a rise to the respect that they deserve.

Word.

That they didn't get just because they came a little earlier. You know what I mean? That's a fact. But we gotta show them love too. So I love it, man. I enjoyed my time in the W. I would do it again. It's a great league. And I'm so happy that there's gonna be a team in the Bay Area now.

Yes, sir.

That the fans can support up there. And you know, that team will have my support too, for sure.

No, man, most definitely. I think the W, and just watching the growth of it, it's been incredible. Because I think, you know, for us, we've always appreciated their talent. You know, like we've always appreciated what those women bring. To the sport, to the game of basketball. And I think for them to start getting their due and like, it's not where it's gonna go, you know, like I think it'll continue to grow and grow and grow. And the reality is I think there's so much discourse around the topic because I do think the women do themselves a disservice at times of comparing it to us.

Mm-hmm.

And the reason I think they do themselves a disservice is totally, actually, has nothing to do with the game of basketball, but everything to do with the W is now, I think, in year 27.

Yes.

And the NBA is in year now, maybe 77.

Yes.

Like, the difference in between 50 years for a company—

Yeah. Is drastic.

For sure. It's like, like, Night and day. It's like General Motors and Tesla. Like, the difference in between the companies are drastic. Now, Tesla may be worth more now. I don't know. I don't know the numbers or whatever. But point being, like, it's a drastic difference. And I think, you know, when you start to play the comparison game, you're comparing, like, strictly from a time standpoint,— a baby to like a grandfather. Like just strictly from a time standpoint, literally like 50 years is a long time.

Yeah.

And that is the head start that the NBA has on the W. And nonetheless, like I said, to see these ladies getting the, some of the credit that they deserve, the notoriety is coming and it's happening. And I think it's great. Uh, two young stars, I think, uh, definitely, uh, now with the Sparks. Uh, what's your thoughts on, uh, Rekia Jackson and Draymond Green, the new young stars of the Sparks?

Yeah, I mean, when you think about the turnover of the roster and, and, you know, going from Hall of Famers and all-time greats in Candace Parker, Nneka Ogwumike, um, you know, Chelsea Gray obviously becoming a Hall of Famer. So I can't wait for her to get back on the court. For Vegas. And so when you think about the way the Sparks have now gone through that process, you know, we tried to stay away from the rebuild as long as we could.

Mm-hmm.

But, but now that's, you have to go through it at some point.

Yeah.

Once that window closes. And so I think Draymond Green and Rekia Jackson are not just great players, but, but they have the, the size, the length, the versatility that similar to what's happened in the men's game, you need that on the women's side too now.

Absolutely.

Like you have to be able to defend multiple positions. You have to be able to play facing the basket. You have to be able to shoot the 3. If you can operate in pick and roll and both of those players can do those things, And from what I can tell, they're high-character young women. So those are great pieces that the Sparks have added. You know, the hard part is, as you know, when you've been winning championships and, and there's that legacy there, there's that feeling that it has to quickly get back to what it was.

Yes.

And, and instead of understanding like what you guys have, what great teams have, has been built over time. Time, and you can't rush that always. And so hopefully, you know, the ladies will get some time and get a few years together. But, but those two players specifically, you surround them with the right pieces, some good veteran pieces at the right time. Um, I, I think there's a bright future in LA for the Sparks.

1000%. And before we get out of here, last question, you know, we have to talk about— like you mentioned her— player, one of the players who's brought all this notoriety, 'cause I think Angel has definitely done her share in bringing that notoriety as well.

Yeah.

But less about the notoriety and more about just the discourse around Caitlin Clark. You got like a lot of people kind of talking for her and, you know, she's not— not that she's hiding, but these narratives just get pushed. What do you make around the discourse for Caitlin Clark?

Yeah, no, I think, you know, sometimes people say all publicity is good publicity, right? I don't completely agree with that. I do think there are times where the discourse doesn't need to be completely what it is, you know. And so I think some of that has happened with Caitlin Clark where we've kind of gotten away at times from appreciating who she is and what she is without us, like, it's almost like people are trying to find reasons to, to kind of dislike or almost like attach it to her. Mm-hmm. When in reality she's literally never said any of the stuff that other people have to say.

Yeah.

While also, I think those narratives in that discourse, which is why you see such strong reactions from current players, in the W is that it almost kind of starts to like create this thing as though they aren't able to have a feeling or an opinion or an emotion around what's going on. Like they're supposed to just kind of shut up and be thankful.

Yes.

For Caitlin's arrival to the league. Like she's saving your life. And while from a business perspective, yeah, we probably will be able to point to 2024 and her arrival as a launching pad, new media rights deal, a lot of the positive things that are gonna come to the W from this moment.

Yes.

But to, you know, if I'm A'ja Wilson, if I'm Nneka Ogwumike, if I'm Diana Taurasi, if I'm the one of the all-time greats, you can't tell me that just this one young lady alone should get all of the credit for, like, I should be thankful to her that, that, you know, I don't have to take a commercial flight anymore. As though all the work I've done in this league over the last 6, 7, 12, 15 years doesn't count.

Yeah.

Like, that's what it sounds like when we try to make it seem like they're hating or jealous per se. And competitive maybe.

Yes. Yeah.

That, I mean, look, bro, I was and still am, I couldn't hold a fricking candle to Michael Jordan. And, but even when I was young and played in the league, I refused to wear Air Jordans.

Ah, that part.

Like just generationally, like growing up, just from a competitive standpoint, it was different. The same way a lot of older guys complain about how respectful and how you guys show each other love and give each other flowers. Like, just because we didn't do that doesn't mean it's wrong.

That part.

Because we should have probably been doing more of that as men to show love and respect. But still, I want to kick yo when we get out there every single time. And so I think the discourse has gotten off track at times. Um, my hope is that at some point it'll quiet down around some of the negative things that have nothing to do with basketball. And we'll really start to like, like with Wemby, for example, like all of that was about basketball.

Everything.

He's a generational talent. We knew it, we saw it. He struggled at times. We were okay with it 'cause he's a rookie. He's not on a great team. He's coached by a great coach, but that's, it's not their time to be great right now. But we allowed him to go through his ups and downs. We followed his journey and we have to respect her journey the same way, regardless of her color. Allow her to go through her struggles. Don't try to make it out to be a bunch of other stuff, but don't also try to make it seem like the ladies that's been in the W and been building this thing and brick by brick by brick for the last 27 years. Wow. Just like they don't count all of a sudden because she's here.

Yeah.

Even if she's great. So I know that was a long answer, bro, but I just, I get passionate about it, you know, 'cause we gotta protect our women, bro. Like we just can't allow people to just kind of make it seem like it's whatever and it's just jealousy and envy when in reality you don't think they want what's best for the league, which she is. She is great for the league and the ladies understand that too. But like, don't make it seem like I'm nobody.

Yeah.

You know, like, like I owe her something. Yeah. Other than competitive respect.

That's it.

I mean, that was literally the Jordan rules, right? Since I brought up Michael Jordan, the Detroit Pistons literally did the same thing.

Absolutely.

To Michael Jordan.

Yes.

Which elevated his level of play to what we now know as the GOAT.

The GOAT.

He had not won championships before that.

Yep.

He started taking notes, bigger, stronger, understand what they're trying to do, the type of system I need to play in, the way I need to be able to move without the ball, all of that. So anyway, man, I could, I could go forever talking hoops on the men and women's side. I love it, bro.

No, I love that answer too, because I think, like you said, Caitlin's been great, but I've heard no one say Caitlin got the opportunity to be this because of all the sweat of these women that came before her. You know, so like, it goes, It goes both ways. Like, Caitlin has 1000% brought an uptick in popularity to the league, which is great. The league is not where it's at today to where Caitlin can bring that uptick if these women, back to Sheryl Swoopes and Cynthia Coopers and Lisa Leslies, like Rebecca Lobos, like, I mean, you go down the list, like, Onto DT, Sue, Candace Parker.

Yeah, Maya Moore, Sue Bird, all that.

Yeah.

Draymond Green.

Sylvia Fowles, Simone Augustus, right? Like without their work, then it also doesn't get to this point either. So I'm happy for what she's brought to the league. I'm happy to see them competing the way they compete. Like keep competing like that because at the end of the day, that's what people paying to see. They not paying to see, a soft game, a weak game. They're paying to see competitive basketball. So keep competing that way. I absolutely love it. But man, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. Absolutely incredible to have this conversation, to learn from you, pick your brain, hear your thoughts. This was a long one.

Yeah.

And shout out to everybody who stayed and stayed tuned in. I hope you appreciated this conversation. As much as I have. So again, D Fish, I wanna say thank you for coming on the show, man.

We appreciate it. Nah, Dre, I appreciate you, man. I have to give you your flowers back to when you started this show. You know, when I watch basketball now, like I watch the game from the lens that I wore the most, right? As a guy that provides impact and value in ways that sometimes people don't see.

Mm-hmm.

But you know it, the, your guys in your locker room know it, your coaches know it, the people that have spent time with you and, and been in the bunker with you, they know it. But there's a lot of people out here that know it too. And whether we always agree with, okay, well yeah, I wouldn't have said that, I wouldn't have handled it like that. Well, I'm not you. I don't go through what you have gone through. I, my life experiences are completely different than yours.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, we are gonna handle situations differently cuz we're two different people. But I wanna say congratulations to what you have done, meaning there's still more to go.

Sure.

Not just on the court, obviously you have a beautiful family. You continue to learn and grow and evolve as a man, as a player, as a person that is also showing how to build something off the court that can also last a lifetime, so whenever your time is up and you decide to do something else, you're already on that path. And a lot of guys are gonna follow your lead the same way we saw Magic Johnson and like, "Oh man, I could hoop and like one day be a CEO. I could one day—" Like there are a generation of high school players like seeing what you're doing and saying, "Hmm." Yeah. Not only can I win championships and, and be a key piece to greatness, but I also can create a platform and talk about basketball and talk about life and share positive things with other people. And that's something to be valued and respected as well, man. So keep going, keep growing. I'm a fan. I respect you. I, I love what you guys have built. I hate it. I hate to see you guys not go all the way, 'cause it— I try to tell people all the time, like, the team that passes the most has been the most successful in the NBA over the last 9 years. So y'all can keep trying to dribble through everything if you want to.

That part.

The pass is amazing. It does a lot of great things. So I appreciate the opportunity to be here, man., on your platform. I appreciate you guys. And, um, it's been a treat to be on Champ Sonny, man. It's been, it's been enjoyable.

Thank you. That's Champ Sonny. That's a wrap. And I know all of you were probably looking forward to me talking about Klay unfollowing the Warriors and, uh, deleting some IG posts or something. I had no idea that happened. I think it's fucking hilarious. Just so y'all know, I laugh. When Jax, I logged on here and Jax is like, yo, so what about Klay? I'm like, what? Like, what happened? He's like, oh, he unfollowed the Warriors. I think that's comical. I know y'all be wanting like somebody feelings to be hurt or something. It ain't that, ain't never gonna be that. That's hilarious. Until next time, champs only, baby. Shout out to the 5-time champion Derek Fisher. Much love.

Much love.

We appreciate you. Till next time, folks, that's a wrap. Peace.