Penny Hardaway on Michael Jordan & Steph Curry, Shaq-Magic split, coaching Memphis | Draymond Green

What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show with BD, my dawg.

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We got a special episode for y'all today. I am OD excited about this episode because—

Yeah, my guys.

I grew up an Orlando Magic fan as a kid, and I was an Orlando Magic fan because of two people, Shaq and Penny Hardaway. And my first jersey in my life was Shaq with the stripes. I had an Orlando Magic zip-up onesie. I had an Orlando Magic nightlight. And for me, this is a dream come true. We have a 14-year NBA veteran, 4-time NBA All-Star.

Yeah.

2-time NBA All-NBA First Team, Olympic gold medalist, and the University of Memphis legend and head basketball coach, none other than the one and only Penny Hardaway. What's happening, OG?

Hey, what's happening, fellas, man? Hey, it's an honor, man, 'cause I'm a fan of both. Obviously I've been knowing BD longer, but Dray, Huge fan, man. The way you approach the game, the way you play the game, your mental, not even your, the physical part of the game, but your mental is OD, bro. Just a huge fan. Huge fan.

Man, I appreciate that. That mean a lot for me. Like I said, just for me being a fan of yours and we gonna get into that this episode. When I, but when I heard the opportunity and they like, yo, what about having Penny on the show? I'm like, what? Like, It's crazy to me. So I just want you to understand, man, my love that I have for you, my appreciation for your career, for who you are as a person. I can't, I can't state that enough before we—

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's the same here, man. It's just one of those situations where, uh, just watching you just grow through the game, man, just from day one, honestly. And, uh, again, like I said, I've known BD way longer, but as far as what you said about me, it's the same, bro. I just, every, every championship, every game when I'm watching with my bigs, when I watch with any player, it's just pointing you out that, you know, we love Steph, we love Klay being there when KD came, all of that. But I'm like, Draymond Green, man, you just gotta watch it, man. You are the type of player that I enjoy playing with. I had Bo Outlaw, I had these guys that just would run through a wall and do whatever it took and just never really got the full credit. You're getting the credit you deserve, maybe more. You need more. But at the end of the day, Appreciate it. What you bring every day, man, to pure basketball people is, is what we love to see.

Thank you, man. And I have to echo, you know, obviously my looking up to you, bro. I got an opportunity, you know, I would say as a young kid when I was at UCLA to see you walk in the gym. And I would say just throughout my career, you always been a guide, you know what I mean? And you know, from what we saw in Orlando to the entertainment, to just always how you carried yourself. And then for me being a young dude in the gym, You know, like the way you baptized me in the game, that was a cold move. You know what I mean?

That was cold.

That was cold 'cause I picked you up full court.

You know what I mean?

You had the ball, we was at UCLA. I was like, oh yeah, I'm about to pick him up. And bro, when you looked at me, you was like, are you kidding me?

You was like—

And then you hit me with like 8 moves. And you know UCLA court short, Dray.

You feel what I'm saying? Yeah.

He went in and out. Cross, boom. Then he did the Smitty, then he did that. And I was like, man, I was sliding. I was like, man, hold on, dude. Like, I'm about to be tired as hell fucking with him.

No, hey, hey, I remember that day, bro. BD, you were different, man. I ain't gonna lie. From the very beginning, bro, you were way, you were mature way beyond your years in the game. Your change of speed, your athleticism, your knowledge of the game, your IQ, your toughness.

Everything changed.

'Cause you had that toughness as well to go along with that game. I mean, the change of heights, the change of speeds, everything, bro. You just, you're impressive.

Man, I watched you. I remember I went to Miami when we was both coming back from rehab, man. I got a chance, you know, when we had our back, you had some knee issues. Like we was both trying to make our way back, man. And then just soak up that game from you. You know what I mean? And learn how to be like, BD, if you wanna get to that next level, you know what I mean? Like it's all the fine details. And I never forget that 'cause that kind of took my career to, and my confidence to a whole nother level, man. So you just, you are like, you are my guy.

You know what I mean?

You are my guy. There is nobody touching you, bro. As far as like game, the ism, you know what I mean? Just, I mean, it was almost like you are one of the pioneers of hip hop, And who? How the rap music start, how the rap music start really translating into, oh, there he is. You know what I mean? The story, there he is. You one of the realest dudes to ever touch a basketball, bro, and to play this league. And you know, salute.

Yeah, no, I appreciate it, man. I feel the same way about your game, bro. You were just elite. When I left UCLA, I called everybody, was like, yo, Baron Davis, look out. And when you came into the league, you did the same thing, bro. It was crazy. How you did it on all levels. You did the same exact thing that you're saying that I did, man. And the illest dude that I've ever seen with a rock in his hands for sure. No doubt about it.

Thank you, bro. That's, oh man. Draymond Green.

Penny, how many you averaging a day?

And today?

I don't wanna make nobody mad, Draymond. I'm taking at least 30 for sure.

Easy.

Easy 30.

Easy 30.

In my prime, I'm not disrespecting anything, but in this day and age, this game fits me. It's not crowded in the paint. You ain't playing your matchup every possession. You know, back in the day we played our matchup every possession. So you really had to bring it. Now having the 5 man switch out. No, I mean.

Yeah, that would be crazy. Like what was—

You getting dirty on dubs.

Huh? Nah, that's an easy 30.

30 on the dubs.

I just know, man, at 6'7", I just, I was a student of the game, bro. It wasn't just about my, athleticism and the style of play. I studied so hard, bro. So I was gonna figure it out, no doubt.

Hey, talk about the difference in, you know, like your mentality coming into the league, you know, as a rookie, a rookie sensation, like in that era, like you had to be a dog, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like talk about, you know, when you got there, like what was your mentality knowing that, okay, you got Mike, you got Reggie Miller, you may have Rod Strickland, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's a fight every night. What was that like?

Yeah, it was kill or be killed, bro. That was my mentality. You gotta go out there and kill or be killed. And those guys weren't sparing you back in the day. Again, you had to play your matchup and it wasn't much help. You're on an island by yourself. And I said, well, they have to be on the island with me by themselves too. So at the end of the day, I was 6'7", I posted them up. I was like, I'm not gonna play with these dudes. I'm going right to the block. I'm going around them, I'm jumping over them. And for whatever, you know, deal, like back in the day, guards couldn't play post D. I guess they weren't used to being posted.

Yeah.

And I took guards to the post and just ate off that. And then obviously the floor game, you know, I had the floor game as well, but I wasn't about playing with people. I was about just getting the job done and trying to get the dub. And I wasn't trying to be cute, fadeaways and all that shit. Cause I, I ain't really with that. I'm with getting it done. And Draymond Green, when I came in, it was kill or be killed.

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Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to report a trade. Orlando has traded the draft rights to Chris Webber to Golden Golden State in exchange for the draft rights to Anthony Hardaway and 3 future first-round draft picks.

All right, you were traded to the Orlando Magic for Chris Webber on draft night. One, how did you feel about the trade? But the biggest question, If you were not traded, you would've had a career at Golden State. What do you think would've unfolded as a Golden State Warrior?

Yeah, first I'll talk about being traded for my man C-Webb. Shout out to C-Webb. He, it was something that I auditioned for because I was doing the movie Blue Chips in LA with Shaq.

Yeah.

And I was with him every single day. And the blessing behind that movie is that we played real basketball. I don't think I took 5 shots the whole summer. I threw him the ball every time. Like, big brother, this is what I'm gonna be doing for you the whole year. I was being smart about it because I wanted to be in Orlando.

Yeah.

And when I went to work out for Orlando, I scrimmaged with the team and took care of business. So I did really well there and I kind of, Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson were there and I'm doing the same thing, getting them shots, getting them shots. And then whenever I had to kind of take over, I kind of took over. But really I wanted to let them know if I come here, You know, I'm, I'm gonna be that guy to find y'all and get y'all the ball. Now the Golden State side of it with Nelly and, uh, and Tim Hardaway would've been vicious as well because of being in the backcourt, man. The Texas Two-Step, Tim Hardaway was unreal, bro. So we played one-on-one inside the arena with Nelly in the, in the crowd watching me and Tim play one-on-one on my video.

Wow.

When I worked out for them and we played like 5 games, it was just knockdown drag out. So he said, I'm gonna bring the goon in on you. And he gonna tell me if you can hoop with us or not. And Tim came. Now Nelly put Tim on me. He was like, you gotta go get him. Like basically he brought Tim like, I'm calling, I'm calling him up. So we played one-on-one and it was nobody in there but me, Nelly, and Tim. Oh, straight one-on-one in front of Nelly. Nelly sitting in the crowd just chilling and me and Timmy going at it. And I knew I had to go at him. But Tim, man, much respect to Tim.

Oh my gosh.

—Did you cook him?

You know what? I can't remember what the scores was, honestly. I gotta ask Tim about that, but I know, hey, if we played 5 games, I ain't lose all 5 games. You know, he was murdering the league at the time too, man.

Yes, he was. Man, that's just crazy though. I think about like my draft process and like for you to say my draft workout, I played against the team. Like with all these rules and shit today, you could never do that. But that's, but like what better audition than to see you get out?

Exactly.

Like what better audition than to see you get out there with the guys and play? Like, it's crazy.

Yeah, they had their best defender. They had their best defender on me who was Anthony Bowie at the time. That's the guy that they put on Mitch Richmond. MJ, all these guys, Reggie.

Yeah, he was cooking him. Yeah.

That's my dog.

That's my dog. Shout out to Bowie.

But he was in the machine. I wanted to be there.

He was in the Washington State.

Yo, that's hilarious. So you enter the league in the East, obviously going in with Shaq, and Michael Jordan is dominating the league. What comes to mind for you about that first matchup? Like, BD, his first matchup with you is in UCLA gym, right? Like, what was your first matchup with MJ, and what comes to mind for you from that matchup?

Yeah, what was so crazy is he was retired first.

He came back wearing the 45.

Oh wow.

That year. Yeah. So we was the dudes in the league. So when MJ came back, I said, oh, okay. All right. All right. I know what I gotta do because at this point, this is my second year. I'm ready. I'm rolling. And he came back and he came back with a vengeance. But that first matchup was, I had to let him know right away because he was that dude. Come on now. He was the dude. So I was like, all right. I took him right to the post. Did what I normally did and was trying to, I was trying to put fear in him guarding me because I knew what he was gonna try to do to me on the other end. So I was trying to hit first.

That's amazing, man.

That's why.

Yeah, that was a battle. I mean, you know what I mean? Mike coming back, 45, like when you saw Mike in 45, was you like, oh, he ain't in the 23, you know what I mean?

So. I didn't recognize the 45. I knew who that was. I was like, he's gonna be a little rusty. But this is MJ to just be able to come back mid-season, bro.

That's crazy.

He had 55 against the Knicks. He had double nickels against the Knicks in the garden.

That's the second game, right?

Right. So I'm like, dog, all right, cool. So when he got into the building, it was 45. We was like, you know, it's MJ.

But it's 45.

But it's 45. But man, we played them in the playoffs right after that. And man, Nick Anderson stole his ball and we won the game off a steal. He came back the next game in a 23 and passed.

I was like, oh.

Oh, he switched.

Oh, he switched.

Oh, wow.

He switched his jersey. He said, I'm outta the 45 and work. When he took his jersey off, everybody saw 23 and he looked in the crowd.

That's crazy.

He beat us that game. Game 2.

To even have the NBA approve that is crazy in itself, man.

There wasn't no rules like that. And that's MJ. He didn't care what David Stern, rest in peace, was saying, bro. He was like, I'm rocking this. Oh my God. Like y'all got all these rules today.

That's savage.

None of that was going on back then, bro.

Hey, that's savage. In mid-series, he changed his number. Let me get back.

That's insane.

Y'all wind up getting him though.

They won game 2 and we went to Chicago and won games 3 and 4.

Yeah, y'all wind up getting him. That was an epic moment. You know what I mean? I felt like that kind of put you in a whole nother stratosphere.

Oh no, it did. Big Mike is what they call him in Chicago. When you beat Big Mike, then you know you're doing something.

Big Mike. Big Mike. You played against MJ, you played against Kobe, and I think you played against Bron, right?

Against who? Bron? Yeah, I played Bron and I played against Magic. Yep. Yep. Yep. I played against Magic. He came back for a couple games and then he went right back out. He didn't even stay. He came back. During that season. So I got a chance to play against all those dudes, man.

Wow.

So tell me like those guys, a lot of people talk about those guys being in the GOAT conversation. How do you look at that? Like what do you, if you say, ah, this guy's the best or that guy's the best, how do you look at the whole GOAT conversation?

Because I view it differently, right? Because LeBron got the numbers. You got MJ who had this innate, way of just hitting 50 whenever he wanted and was crazy with it and winning championships, undefeated in finals. And then you had Kobe who mimicked MJ, who had IQ, who had toughness, and who had shot making ability and won championships himself. So I put them in those categories. So LeBron is the numbers guy. He, he got the numbers. Like that's the guy. He's, you gotta give him that. MJ being a guy undefeated in the finals, a guy that was, you know, first team all defense. I can't remember how many times. Yeah. I mean, come on, man. That's, that's the GOAT to me.

Yeah, for sure.

And then Kobe being a fearless, fearless warrior and champion who mimicked his game after MJ. It's like you gotta, you gotta have all of them 1A, 1A, 1A, but in their own different, in their own different ways to me. And I'm not being political on that because LeBron is a power forward pretty much, you know, Kobe's 2 guard, MJ's 2 guard, but Kobe mimicked his game after MJ and Kobe did a hell of a job mimicking that dude.

He did.

He did that. He was a dog. He did that. Rest in peace to Kobe. He did that. —hell of a job carbon copying MJ. It's like that, it's almost like you're trying to carbon copy the impossible. You know what I'm saying?

Facts. Yeah.

And to actually do it.

So yeah, yeah. And to do it. So what Kobe had, what MJ had over Kobe was so different. Or, or I should say Kobe's approach versus MJ's approach. MJ was like, I'm giving all y'all at 70. Like if I go to Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, he did that 50, 50, 50. I don't know how, 2 or 3 times in his career. Think about going 50, 50, 50, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas. What Kobe did when he had problems was, I'm marking Penny Hardaway down on my list. I'm, I'm marking Baron Davis down on my list. I'm putting Gary Payton on my list. I'm putting all these top dudes on my list and I'm gonna knock 'em off one by one. MJ never said, he said, I ain't doing none of that. I'm just coming in and I'm killing y'all. So Kobe had to start off a little slower. Rookie year, he kind of struggled a little bit. Be the year in LA. And then he just, you knew he was coming though. But he made this list of names and boy did he scratch off.

Yeah, he did. He scratched all the names off that list. Yeah, he did. And then man, I want you to talk about, 'cause to me, like, you see Magic Johnson and then the next iteration of somebody that's 6'8", 6'7" with dimes, offensive talent, leadership, like the next version was Penny Hardaway. How much of an influence did like Magic have? You know what I mean? Or who are some of the people that you pattern your game after you know, coming up?

Yeah, it was strictly Magic for me because how he approached the game. You talking about a fierce competitor, talking about somebody that was happy to make everybody else better. Mm-hmm. You talk about somebody that was gonna win at all costs. Champion did whatever it took, played 5 spots in the NBA. Who can say one guy played 5 spots like that throughout his career? And he was a PG, 6'9" PG. He wasn't the most athletic, He wasn't the most, the, the fastest dude. He was getting picked up 94 feet by guys. He understood IQ on how to get the ball into position when somebody bigger played him. He had all the shots. He developed the sky hook. He posted up, he made, I mean, it was just ridiculous for him. So for me it was Magic all the way, man. Just watching him.

Amazing. A lot of, and you just mentioned him, Tim Hardaway, the Texas Two-Step. But yeah, for us growing up, We called it Timmy, you know, the twin cross.

Yeah.

That's the Timmy.

Yes.

Like for us growing up.

Yeah.

Andrew Wiggins does this move. I knew exactly where it came from the first time he did it. I love doing it. I seen it and I was like, oh my God, he just hit him with the penny. How did you come up with that move? And you was doing it from 3, which I think is absolutely insane. Like people don't understand. How far away the NBA 3-point line is from the rim. To have the strength to do that move from 3 is insane to me. Like, where, how did you come up with that move? And why do you think it is that, that more guys don't use it? Because you, you create so much separation with it.

Yeah, I think for me, you know, shout out to Keith Askins, who was one of the best defenders in the league. He was kind of a, overreactive. Any little flinch I made, he went for it. So me, I'm studying him every game. I'm like, in that moment, because I only used that move, you'll never see any of that move ever in my career again. I was all about getting space and shifting you, right? So I knew if he, he was gonna go for the half spin, I had already planned it out in my head and it just happened in the moment. I said, if I half spin this dude, he's gonna be there because he was just that type of defender and I'm just gonna separate with a, with a step back. Mm-hmm. And when I hit the half spin and saw him there, I just hopped back. He didn't know I was gonna do that. Obviously I did.

Yo.

And when I did it and shot it, I was in such a rhythm, man. I was, it was heat check time at that point. Everything was, everything was going in. But that was one time I did that move and I never tried it again because my mind just worked to try to shift you. And I knew what type of defender he was. And the reason why, to go to the second part of that question, guys don't do it anymore. Guys ain't playing D that hard in the league no more for them to actually have to try to do that. You know, they're basically stealing. And you're a great defender, so you know what I mean by that.

I'm not knocking it, but—

Absolutely. They're not playing D that hard to have to make you shift them like that.

For sure. No, you only got a couple guys that's like really picking a guy up in they chest like that. That's hawking the guy. But then also another thing is though, you can't touch players today. Like you impede any movement. But dudes,— they call it a foul.

But dudes ain't afraid to— like, dudes are afraid to get embarrassed, right?

That's true.

It's more of like being afraid to get dropped or dunked on or in the highlights, where it was more so like, I feel like, you know, your era and then a little bit of— and then my era, it was more so you trying to get on SportsCenter, right?

Yeah.

So, you know, I just feel like it's just a difference. Like, dudes are nervous. Like, man, I ain't about to go hard on defense. And then be sitting on the floor. You know what I mean? Nobody wants that.

I look at the approach like Jay-Z said in his line, y'all respect the one who got shot, I respect the shooter. Remember that verse? Absolutely. I respect the defender that gets up and if he gets dropped, he gets back up and come at you again. I respect that more so than the shot.

1000%.

So that's me, you know.

When you look at the NBA, like you said, you seen Magic on to, I'm sure you still watch the NBA some today. When you look at it, who do you have your top 3 guys as far as handle that came through the league?

Oh, that came through the league? Yeah. Small Crawford is one of 'em for sure.

Okay.

Kyrie for sure.

Crossover Kyrie.

Crossover Kyrie. And man, it's a lot of guys that had— BD had crazy handles, but he wasn't, he was freakish with it as well. But you talking about guys that displayed it every move. BD was about blowing around you. But these guys are like Kyrie, he'll hit you, beat you, pull back. Me too. Again, pull back. So we talking about them type of guys. Draymond Green would do the same thing. So you talking about, and then Steph has handles. He could do whatever he want with that thing too, man.

Steph is—

So, and then to be able to get that off from 3 with that same handle. So right now I could put Steph in that category because man, he works at it and he gets separation better than no other. He don't need, you notice this much room. That's it. But the big, the big guys with the handle to me were JC and, and, and—

Kyrie.

Kyrie. And I'll put Steph.

Rod Strickland too. I always put Rod.

Oh no, OG Rod. Oh, don't even start me with him, bro. That dude was ridiculous, bro. He was ridiculous. He was the Kyrie before Kyrie. I'm talking about just recently. But you talking about handles? Yeah, Rod Strickland was crazy with it, bro.

Yeah, his handles was crazy.

You played against some greats, dude. I did. I did. Go ahead, Jay.

Kenny Anderson.

Kenny Anderson.

And BD was just talking about Kenny Anderson before you got started.

Kenny Anderson, hey bro, he used to make me so mad in practice 'cause he would be killing and you know how he is, he like, "Come on, yo, we just playing ball, yo. Come on, BD, check up, yo." And I would be in practice like trying to foul him, you know what I mean? And he'd just be killing. I was like, "I'm gonna lose my spot to this dude." You know, shout out to Kenny Anderson.

Speaking of the greats though, one debate that comes up all the time, Is the '96 Olympic team was better than the '92 Dream Team? Where do you stand as far as those teams go? Obviously you were a part of the '96 team, but—

Yeah.

You know, and seeing how those two teams went about.

Yeah, no, all our idols are on '92, bro. We bound out to '92. You got to, bro. You gotta show love and respect to '92. But we ain't bound out to nobody else though.

Oh, whoa. Okay.

Let's go.

Let's go.

Let's go. Let's go. Let's go through the matchup. You don't got enough nobody else left.

Let's go through the matchup.

Let me see. Let's go through the matchup.

You don't got enough nobody else left.

Come on.

We can talk about that all day, right?

Draymond Green, go. What's the 5?

I know, I'll be 100% honest. I wanna flex my muscle a little bit. I got 2 of them things. But I'll be 100% honest. You know, I'm always keeping it real. I'm not a part of some of the greatest Olympic teams of all times. I got on my first Olympic team because of, Some guys didn't want to go because of the Zika virus in Brazil. So a lot of guys ain't want to go. I'm like, oh.

Yeah, yeah.

You gonna have to see me with the mosquito.

I'm going.

Yeah, no doubt. And so, so I'm not gonna sit here and even act like one of my Olympic teams could compete. 'Cause I'm sitting here looking at this team list and nah, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna always keep it real. No chance. We would've probably, we had a good team, like a really good team, but I'm just not sure our team could compete with this team. So I'm not even gonna do it.

How would you think y'all match up with this past Olympic team though?

Yeah, no, they were really good, you know? And it's just, to me, I mean, we had the big men.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? We had all the bigs. We had Draymond Green.

Charles Barkley, Grant Hill, Anthony Hardaway, David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton, Hakeem Olajuwon. I'm sorry, I can't make that argument.

That's cool.

That's crazy. That's a hell of a team, bro.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

And shout out to GP. GP is my dog. Me and GP got closer doing that Olympics in '96 'cause we was, we would go every time you went to Seattle, you had a problem, you had to go to bed, bro. Talking about GP, that dude was real. So we never, listen, Everybody can debate their own Olympic team. Like Draymond Green said, man, it was an honor to represent the country. Like you said, people didn't want to go, he went. Come on, bro. That was a blessing, bro. Ours was in the States, in Atlanta, which to me was even more special because my family could come.

That's crazy.

Even if it would've been outta the country, it would've been cool. But just to represent the country was cool.

No, that's, that's amazing. Yeah, I, I wanna ask you a couple questions and obviously your Memphis team is playing incredible.

I appreciate it.

When you get into like the, the game today, and obviously when you first got into it, had an issue with you and James Wiseman and past relationships and all this stuff.

Yeah.

And now you look at the NIL, how in your view and being in it, has that changed? The college game, the college game as a whole.

Yeah. That whole—

The NIL.

Yeah. The whole entire James Wiseman situation was by the judge saw it how I saw it. You know, when I, when we retired from the NBA, bro, we go back and we do for our communities, right? Absolutely. Even when we're in the league. And when I retired, I came home and I did for the community. I didn't do anything for James Wiseman on my high school team that I didn't do for anyone else over all the years from, you know, '93 all the way up. So that was my thing. And it just got misconstrued because of some hate and jealousy. Right. From some people and they turned it into the NCAA, which became an investigation. And thank God that the judge saw it how it really was. But fast forward until now, uh, NIL has changed the whole demographics in a major way because now it's not just about the athletes getting paid. Some are getting paid millions.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like now there's no— there are no, um, rules to the game. Like, you don't get fined. Like, in the league, you get fined if you show up late. You know, I think that's what it's gonna turn into because we need some guardrails on this thing because a, a player can get as much money as he wants, get all the time, get all the shots, get all he wants or whatever. And I'm speaking from what the coaches say around the country, but he can come to practice and go, yo, I'm not, I'm not feeling practice today. And you can't fine him and go, well, we're fining you because you're not practicing. They still get their money, you know, and You know, it's a beautiful thing for these young men to get paid, but it also, it's being taken outta, it's getting a little outta hand and we just gotta get some guardrails around it.

Yeah, I was gonna ask you, what is the, you know, whatever gift, there's a curse, you know what I mean? And so, you know, you kind of, NIL is sitting in this middle ground of it can be great for families and things like that, but there's also, you know, they are getting millions of dollars. You know, when we got millions of dollars, nobody gave us an instruction box, uh, how to manage a million dollars. Right, for sure. And then Draymond Green, you know, being hard to manage, you know what I mean? And so, you know, I look at it as it's a fine balance of helping people become successful and then enabling people to become, you know, ultimate, ultimately like failures to themselves if they don't make it.

Yeah, I think it gives them an excuse as well of not to work hard to get to the league because they're making so much money they can physically retire and say, well, if I don't make the league, I got this to fall back on. So the hunger to me, and Dray knows this and you know this, the hunger you gotta have to make it, you know, and a, a lot of these young men, they just don't understand. Obviously the world has caught up and surpassed in some areas. Yeah. But where they're being drafted, so American players, man, we got it even harder. So most guys are using the NIL for almost a backup plan and it's helping families, which is a beautiful thing, but it's not driving them for more. You know, it's not driving them to be like, okay, I got this NIL, but I still gotta go play. I still wanna make it to my dream.

That's interesting. Cause I, I, I felt like, you know, a part of, a part of wanting to make it for me was the struggle. Like not having food when I was in college and I am totally on board with players getting paid because, you know, I think you create value in anything, you should make money. Like, that's just the world we live in. And so I'm completely on board for that. But I do think NIL in a sense by the NCAA is a setup. And I think it's a setup because to me it felt like they were just like, all right, here you go, let it blow up in your face. You know what I'm saying? Everything else, They wanna put guardrails around and help guide it. But then the one, you know, the one thing that they finally give, it's like, hey, here's everything with nothing to follow, no anything. And then, you know, there's an ugly side of it as well where you're starting to see these kids coming out and saying they ain't get paid the money they was supposed to get paid.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and,. But yet again, who, who are you going to when that happens? Because there's no one governing. It's just what it is.

Yeah. I think that when it happened, a lot of coaches already had, you know, foreseen that this was gonna happen. What you're saying, like the, the NCAA just took their hands off them to go, all right, go to work, you know, and we don't have anything to do with it. You know, that's just you guys. And I think they're, they're going backwards to come back forwards by now by saying, all right, we're gonna do the guardrails. Because it's just, it's, it's outta hand. And like you said, you should profit from things that you're associated with or that are using your name, image, and likeness. I mean, it's just a part of it, but it's gotten to a point to where it's like you said, some coaches aren't paying players or they're saying they're not being paid. We don't know, but they're saying that. Mm-hmm. And it's not incentive-based. It's just basically like it's yours. If you're making $1 million, you're gonna get your entire $1 million. And if you average, 7 points and 3 rebounds, you're still gonna get your $1 million. Talk— You, you, you got that money.

Talk about like coaching in this era. 'Cause you, you, you started without the NIL. Now you're now in NIL. Just talk about, you know, coming up in the league, the coaches you had and then, you know, coaching philosophy. How is that, you know, how have you evolved, you know, I would say from a player coach and you know, now in this new NIL.

Yeah, I, I'm still the same, you know, because the way that I recruit these guys is we play outta concepts. We try to do everything Golden State does. Anybody in the league does that play outta concepts, man. We don't have like a set system. You know, there are systems and I don't knock those coaches. Coach Draymond Green and Coach Izzo has a great system, you know, and they play, they just have to play tough, but it works. It's a system that's, that's worked for, for years. Yeah. But for me to stay in the know with the younger guys, For me, I just play out of concepts. You know, you pay— give the ball to Draymond and we're going into split screens. We're screening for each other. We're getting the ball, we're getting downhill, we're kicking it, making one more. And then on defense, we're locking in and packing the paint or just pack line defense. So for me, I think it works for those guys because they can see through our system. They can look at Golden State play and go, wow, look at how they play. And then watch our film and we can show you the exact same things that we're doing in practice. Mm-hmm. The terminologies and everything that they're, they're using. So I think that gives me an edge as well.

I love it.

When, when you first got into the college game and you know, this could be just me 'cause how big of a fan I am, but when you first got into the college game and you're walking into these living rooms as the Penny Hardaway, like, was that too, I, um, was that to a benefit or to a detriment? Because I think the first thing that people would think is, it's Penny, of course people wanna be around you, of course. But—

Right.

You also run into a lot of people that wanna use that against you. You know, like they wanna use your success, your name against you. Like, did you find that to be helpful or hurtful?

It, oh, it's two ways though, Dray. The, the first way is the good way because the parents were fans of mine. Most of those parents, they love the game. They got a kid that can play ball. They're like, man, I watched you. You were my favorite player. And that from that side, it was great. But then there's so many coaches that bond together. There's a lot of haters. They go, don't go play there. It's not organized. It's all NBA stuff. And then I didn't only walk into the, to the room by myself. I walked in with Mike Miller.

And then I walked in with Coach Larry Brown.

Then I walked in with Rasheed Wallace. I mean, I had these guys on my staff. So look at what I'm rocking with, right? So I'm walking in with these guys. They like, how could you say no? But from the flip side of that though, there comes a lot of hate because when we come from the league and I didn't quote unquote pay my dues and was an assistant coach for 5, 6, 7 years and didn't get the job, I just came right in. That makes a lot of people mad. So while these parents are oohing and aahing and man, we love you.

Mm-hmm.

They've got 20 phone calls from someone going, don't go there, go here. Yeah. Just don't go there. So there's so many people hating for, for, for young men not to come to me because they know the success that I'm gonna have and that they're gonna have.

1000%. I love it. I love it. Talk your shit, OG. I love it.

That's it though.

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Right.

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Going back to the Olympics, right? 'Cause I always wanted to ask this, right?

I was about to say.

You come off Olympic gold. Right? Summertime, celebrating the gold, and then Shaq leaves the Magic for the Lakers.

Bro, worst day of my life right there. I ain't gonna lie. I knew the magnitude of that, bro. But here's the thing though, that was so crazy. Shaq never told me he was leaving.

Oh, wow.

You know how you get into the, Draymond knows this, like all of the international media was in there in our interview with the entire team. We're on a panel. And they're asking each one of us questions and one guy goes, how does it feel not to have Shaq as a teammate? I look around, I was like, Grant Hill right here, Gary Payton. I was like, looked at Charles Barkley. I'm looking, I'm like, if that happens, then that will be devastating. That's exactly what I said. And they was like, no, like he's, he's, he's about to sign a multi-year deal with the Lakers. I was like, well, if that's the case, then You know, I wish him well. And then Shaq came to my room either that day or the next day, knocked on my door, bro, and was like, bro, I'm sorry. I should have told you, bro. I was done. I was—

Oh.

It killed me, bro. It killed me. But I'm gonna tell you what happened. All of like the entertainers in LA, Jerry West, rest in peace, was so smart. He knew Shaq wanted to be in movies. He knew Shaq wanted that. He brought him to LA. You know, LA is beautiful. Even though Orlando is a family town, LA is different. Yes, it is. When Shaq went there and they, man, they did everything. They threw everything at him. He forgot my name. He was like, what about Penny? He was like, who? Who? Oh no, you talking about Kobe and Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones and, oh yeah, I know them cats. But yeah, no, I was happy for him, but I knew what that meant to our franchise, bro. You can't lose that. You can't.

No, no, no.

But the thing that was so bad about that was, the local media would always like poke the bear, meaning like Shaq can't shoot free throws, we'll never win a championship. The fans say Shaq doesn't deserve all the money he's getting because he can't make free throws. They were doing that to him. And I was like, what are y'all doing?

That's crazy.

Like, dude, come on, y'all crazy. And I think Shaq got a little bit of that in there along with going to LA. But I didn't know, BD. I was in the conference like, I didn't know.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

Wow. Damn, Shaq.

But he came to the Lakers though.

You know what I mean? Yeah.

That's my dude though, man. Man, that dude, I love that dude to death. But he knew, he apologized 1,000 times after that. Like, if I would've known now what I knew back then. But at the time I felt like he made the right decision for his career monetarily and for championships because he went to a team that was willing to—

Yeah, for sure.

And Orlando was gonna do exactly what we needed to do to go out and get pieces as well. Lakers, Orlando, new franchise versus the history.

But he could have stayed in Orlando for 2 years. 'Cause when he got to LA, it took him a while to get there. So, you know, I always, and I love when he say like, damn, I should have stayed with Penny, got us one and then bounced.

That would have been all right with me.

Yeah, right. But you know, it's like, you know, basketball has so many storylines and everybody's story is, you know, interweaved with everybody else. It's just, you know, it's great to see like, you know, when things come full circle, you know what I mean? Yeah. And for him, you know, to big up you to say like, you one of the greatest players he's ever played with, you know what I mean? And like you getting your flowers now, especially.

Yeah.

You know, I know you coaching, and so how them players are, you know what I mean? But like, they need to hear from us, like how special and how important you are to us because—

And I appreciate it.

You opened the floodgates to like, oh, I can get out here and wiggle. Oh, basketball is entertainment. You know what I mean? But it's, there's a style to this killer. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. And I think that, that just, I mean, that motivated me, that motivated a whole generation of people, man. You know, I just always look at like your storyline, even with the knee injuries, with my knee injuries. And I say, man, there's so many parallels, but to be able to like share that moment with you, you know what I mean? Like for me, I know it was hard, but you know, for you, like just share a little bit about, you know, overcoming injuries, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

What would've been? 'Cause I always think about that shit too. Like— Yeah, come on. You know, like, tell me what would've been, man. Like, what would you—

Yeah, it's crazy, man. Me healthy, I just, you know, I just know I could've did like way more damage. I wasn't a selfish player, but I just got it done, you know, in my way. And I wanted to win and I would've, not having any injuries, it would've been crazy. It definitely would've been crazy. And the same thing with you, bro. And the same thing with Dray. Dray didn't have the injuries we had. He's been like, you was just talking about people looking up to us. You know, back in the day, guys didn't really look up to defenders like that. But when Golden State was rolling and Draymond Green was a huge part of that, I'm hearing guys in the gym going, I wanna be Draymond, coach, you can, I don't need to shoot. And he, he set a standard outside of defenders and guys that hustle and scrap. And then this year, the 3-point shooting and just working on his game and Kanzi going, okay, I don't have to shoot 3s, I'm still gonna win, but now I'm gonna show y'all I can add something else to my game. So for all of us, Yeah. In our own way touching lives, man. When people see Draymond and see you BD and see me, it, they light up because they can identify success to us. They can identify hard work to us. They can identify being a great teammate, being somebody that respected the game and, and just wanted to ultimately win. Yeah. And it didn't matter what it took. So for me not being injured, man, I would've been the best teammate. I feel like I would've been one of the best winners cuz I would've did whatever it took to take the back seat to anybody that I played with. To go and get that ring, man. It wouldn't have been no ego with me. If we would've brought in younger players and I was in my prime, wanted to win a championship, you would've had no fuss outta me, bro. It would've just been, let's win. And I wanted to win. And I hate that I didn't because watching the guys that have won, man, it's like watching them celebrate, bro. It just takes you back to be like, man, I just wish I had that moment.

I wish I had that moment, man, all the time. Like if I—

I wish y'all had that moment too.

Man, woo! You've done it over and over again.

It's an incredible feeling.

Man.

It's hard to put it into words. It's crazy though, because when I did it the first time, it was like incredible and it was like, wow. And then like, after like a couple weeks of living on this cloud, I kind of went through this little small depression and like fear of like, man, What if I'll never feel that feeling again? And then we did it, when we did it again, what I've gotten every time since is that you get the most joy outta seeing the guys on the team that's now doing it for the first time.

Yeah, for sure.

Because it can always, it always take you back to that moment of like, wow. Like I remember when I felt like that. Like not that I'm not happy, like, it's the best feeling. But I know that that joy right there is different, you know, because when you do it for that first time, it's nothing like it. But—

No, I'm sorry.

Nah, yeah.

I was just fucking with you.

BD, speaking of first times, you remember the first time you played Penny? And I don't want to, don't get me to UCLA gym that we can't see. Do you remember the first time you played Penny? He had 24 points that game.

I was coming off the bench for the Charlotte Hornets, I believe.

And Penny was with the Suns by then.

Yeah, he was in the Phoenix Suns.

Yeah.

Eddie Jones was the shooting guard. And you know, Eddie was my dog too.

Oh yeah.

Eddie was my dog. And yeah, just goes to show, like, you know, Penny came in there, it was you and J-Kid.

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah.

That was, come on, dude. I watched that.

I don't even think I played in that game. Did I play?

I played like, they wouldn't let me in the mix, bro.

That's so crazy. That's so crazy though, BD. Talk about, I wanna ask that question because as great as you were coming out, you had to sit to these veterans and you were like this young goon ready to go to work and you just had to sit and wait your turn. Talk about, I don't understand how you did that.

I don't know. I was just, When I got in, I think I was so hyped up, I would make mistakes. You know what I mean? And like, you know, our margin for error was very minimal. You know what I mean? And the way Paul Silas coached, like, you had to spot up jumpers, go in the post. And when I got to Charlotte, I was like, damn. Like, when I first got there, we was moving, you know, pick and roll, I was showing what I can do. When they started putting them plays in, it was like, Oh, we don't fast break down here. You know what I mean?

Right.

There was really no way to change the tempo. So I was like, damn, I'm not gonna get a chance. But I stayed in Charlotte after the season and they said I couldn't shoot. So I worked on my shot. And then that's when I came back to LA, played in the real run. Drew, I just started chasing every fade and every dude that had a good year, I was trying to pull up on him. Oh, no doubt. And the celebrity game, all that. And then that's, you know, it was almost like it was a good thing, but I still don't think it was good. 'Cause I felt like if I would've started, like I could've been a game changer. But you know, back then Penny, you know how there's a hierarchy.

Oh, no doubt.

You know what I mean? And sometimes you gotta have one game or two games where you start to break through that mold. And I never got to start my rookie year.

But that's your testimony, bro. But guess what?

You still that dude.

Yeah, yeah.

Still that dude. Yeah, and when I came back, I started, you know, every game after that. David Wesley called me in the summer. He was like, hey bro, just tell 'em don't trade me. I was like, bro, when I see you in training camp, bro, you better find a new position. I am not playing. And he wound up playing, starting shooting guard for us.

And David Wesley was tough.

Penny, and just speaking on, you know, obviously you were with Orlando Magic, then you went to Phoenix. But again, I go back to the Orlando Magic times.

Yep.

Shaq jersey just became the first jersey to get retired in Orlando Magic history. Do you think you will and should get that call soon? Personally, before you speak, I think so.

I think so, man. But you know what was so crazy is T-Mac came behind me And he wore number 1 too. So I think both number 1s, McGrady and Hardaway, need to be up in there. And I know you talking about me 'cause Mac is my dog, but I think that number 1 needs to go down Hardaway and Mac. And we need to do it on the same night 'cause that's my dog. I don't need it on my own. I mean, we need to do that for sure.

Hey, come on, bro. Y'all can get both number 1s, but you definitely need your own night, man. You got way too many highlights, way too many accomplishments. Like we gotta have, you know what I mean? Like as far as like the ones. Yeah, yeah, you're one of the ones, man. You know, you, without barring any injuries, you're on that GOAT level.

You know what I mean?

No doubt, no doubt.

I was on the way.

You was on your way. And there's always a debate obviously on who's Mount Rushmore. I wanna know what does your Mount Rushmore look like? Like who are your 4 players?

I go old school so much, so I'm gonna have to read. I go old school so much, man, but it's so much greatness in today's game and that's played over the last 10 years. But if I'm going old school, old school, it's Shaq, it's MJ, it's Kobe, and it's Bron. That would be my list. So if you want, that would be the list besides me. If I'm going that route. It's just, you know, I have so much love for Steph. I have so much love for so many people, bro. It's just, it's crazy, man. Because they talk about the best point guard. Is Steph a point guard or is he a shooting guard? What are we talking about? You know what I'm just saying? What is he?

He's a point guard.

That's what I'm saying. So when we talk about great point guards, bro, how could you leave the little— he's a— I remember saying a long time ago, that dude is an assassin, bro. He got the baby face. That dude is an assassin, man. What he's done to the game, you cannot leave him outta any conversation.

That's a fact. He a point guard. You know why Steph's a point guard? And I think, I think people asking, you know, you, you have the whole theory of is the glass half empty, is the glass half full. Yeah. I think people asking is Steph a point guard or a shooting guard is a compliment to Steph because the reason they ask the question is because of how well he shoots the basketball. Basketball.

Yes.

Yeah. And so you shoot the basketball so well that everyone wants to make him a shooting guard. But the reality is a lot of his shots are off the dribble.

Number one, most shooting guards didn't shoot off the dribble.

When you talk about prototype, prototypical shooting guards, most prototypical shooting guards was one or two drip bounces, bang, get to they spot and pulling up, one or two bounces to the cup. That was a 2 guard. And so it was— I think it's such a compliment to him when people say that because you shoot the ball that well. But here's the thing, when you talk about why he's a point guard is if you've ever watched Steph, and I've seen all of them, I, I'm blessed to say that the amount of coverages that he's seen and had to read like quarterbacks read coverages, point guards read coverages. The amount of coverages that Steph has had to read and being guarded, um, no, Bron has not seen, Kobe has not seen, MJ has not seen. There is not a person in NBA history that has seen the amount of defenses and different type of coverages— that Steph Curry has seen. And to navigate that, still average almost 7 assists per game on a career, plus his points. And to get those reads— so for instance, Steph is averaging 6.5, 6, 6 assists. I'm averaging 7.5, 8. I'm averaging those assists off of him making a, a quick read and getting me the ball and then allowing me to do what I do. Yeah. Yeah, but the quarterback still had to hit me on the route, right? Like, yep. And that's why I say, like, no question he's a point guard, but it's the ultimate compliment because you're so great at a thing that they want to make you that other thing. That's—

You know what, you know what, you know what it is? It's he's a point guard who scores the way a shooting guard was traditionally supposed to score. Like, point guards don't really you know, over like over the history of the league put up 50s and 40s and things like that. So when you see somebody like even you Penny, like I asked you, are you a point guard? Of course.

Right.

You know what I mean? When you play with Jason Kidd, you still a point guard, you a combo guard.

Yeah.

And so now Steph has been called a hybrid guard. I say Penny Hardaway, point guard, point god. Steph Curry, point god. Because he just revolutionized the way we play. You know what I mean? Like nobody in, you know, I've never seen somebody score shooting guard points at the point guard position night in and night out. You know what I mean? I feel like Mulberry was maybe one of the most potent point guard scorers.

Yeah, for sure. Shout out to Steve.

Iverson was a shooting guard. You know what I mean? And so like Steph is doing what Iverson is doing from the point guard position. And so it's, it, it, it messes people's equilibrium up because that's not what you traditionally see.

Yeah. And it's like, it's like Draymond saw man-to-man coverage. He saw double teams, but it's like he said, Steph has seen every coverage imaginable, but his IQ along with Draymond's IQ and the way that Steve has the offense flowing, if we can give him that credit. Absolutely. That marries, that marries everything together in a perfect form for how he plays the game. And then most of his shots are coming from him screening, him slipping a screen, him getting the dribble handoff, him throwing it and zooming in and chasing and getting the shot and being able to make those shots while making those decisions.

Yeah.

And then I think he's gotten more, he's gotten more backdoor cuts in his career in the last 2 or 3 years that I've ever seen because now he's reading them, overplaying them, he's getting the backdoors and Dray's leading them before he moves, like throwing them open. So, I'm watching all this like, man, it's unreal. He's been blessed to have Draymond Green because everybody couldn't have been in the position Draymond Green is in. Throwing somebody open versus throwing somebody a pass, it's two totally different things. He has to see him open and see the vision of where that ball needs to bounce for Steph Curry to just get into that ball and just lay that ball up. So that's the beauty of, of the whole thing at Golden State that I marveled over, man. And I imagine myself playing in that, in that system with those two dudes. That would be stupid, bro. And you, BD, us four, baby. Let's go.

Come on, man. I come off the bench. I ain't tripping.

That's me now, baby.

Hey bro, hey bro, I am not tripping. Let me come off the bench, you know what I mean?

Yes sir, no, that's fire. What we got?

I was gonna say, you been at Memphis since 2018.

18.

What we, yeah, what?

What?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, bet. I'll go there.

Okay.

Okay, bet. I'll go there. Yeah.

All right.

So I'm a big fan of the current Orlando Magic team. It's crazy because if you go back and date these podcasts early, well, during the draft year of Paulo Banchero, Everybody was saying Jabari Smith Jr. would be the, should be the number one pick. And I actually love Jabari Smith's game. So this ain't a slight at all. But I said on, on this podcast, I said, yo, everybody talking about Jabari Smith being the number one pick. To me, Paolo Banchero's the number one pick. And they end up taking the intel from the Draymond Green Show and they did the right thing. They dropped the Paolo. But you know, they also did a great thing. They drafted Franz Wagner.

Yes.

You just said, you know, if you were with us, you know how that would've been. How would you have foreseen playing with those two young guns? They both would be All-Stars this year if they were playing. Paulo's been hurt for a while and Franz, I don't know if his games is gonna end up being enough to ultimately make it, but. How could you saw yourself fitting in with those young guys that you got over there in Orlando right now?

Yeah, no, first of all, shout out to Jamal Mosley, man. The Orlando Magic, they did a great job on choosing him because he paid his dues, bro. So I'm happy for him.

Yeah.

Done a phenomenal job with his staff of knowing who's who. He knew Paulo was that guy. And for me to play in that system, and like I said, with Franz, he's hurt, he's injured as well. He might be out for weeks.

Yeah.

So he's injured as well. But with those guys healthy, all I would've done is just fed off those guys.

Mm-hmm.

And whenever I needed to take over the game, I would, but I would let them know, hey, I got y'all back and no matter what, let's go win. And, and I would've been the ultimate teammate. That's just who I was. I just wanted to win. And you use that youth and that talent and you just get with them in the gym. We would've gotten in the gym a lot so that they could learn who I was and who they were. Then we would've watched film a lot just to try to get them to understand what the league was all about and how they could get an advantage on being young guys against veteran guys or guys in the league already. And Paulo came in just destroying from the beginning anyway. So that's what I would've done, man. It would've been fun to play with that group.

What, what do you think is next? Like obviously they gotta get healthy.

Yeah.

And although I think they're having a great year, I don't quite think they're at that contender level yet. What do you think needs to happen for that team? Obviously those two guys are staples, not going anywhere.

Yeah.

Be there for the next 10 years if they want to be. Yeah, but what do you think that team needs to do in order to continue to take that next jump and take advantage of these young guys? Like you wanna take advantage of these guys while they on low salaries because once the salaries get too big, you start having to pluck pieces.

Yeah.

And Franz just got paid, Paulo will.

Yep. I think what you have to do is you gotta get smart vets. The guys like back in the day was like a James Posey.

Yeah.

Or Tony Allen or, Or, uh, David West, guys like that, David West, guys, you know, like that, that are true professionals that know how to win, that still have enough game that can get in the game and kind of help manage them, kind of help understand that I'm gonna take the best forward in the game. If I'm a forward, you take the second level forward and watch how I do this. If I'm a guard that comes in, let me take the, the high level guard. You take that. Yeah. And just kind of teach them how to win. And I think that's the next level for Orlando. And it's beautiful. A city as Orlando is, man, with all the offer. They don't get vets that want to go there. And I understand, but in another way I don't, because this team is up and coming, but they're going to need some— somebody that can get down there and kind of recruit vets in there. When I was in Orlando, the Orlando Magic hired Dr., uh, Dr. J, Julius Erving, to come in.

Yes, sir.

To try to help recruit some vets in there, man. And Dr. J did a great job. So they need some guys that can get some vets in there to go. You can't go all young. That's not gonna work. Yeah, they need some blue guys.

Blue guys.

I agree with that. I definitely agree with that. That's a problem around the league. A lot of places people start getting rid of vets because the tax penalties are so big.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that $3 million that a vet'll make as opposed to the million dollars ends up costing $14 million as opposed to 2.5. And people start getting rid of vets. But I think the effect that it has on these organizations, Like you can say that $14 million if you want to. And don't get me wrong, $14 million is a lot of money. But in the grand scheme of these teams, you can try to say that $14 million if you want to, but your, your young guys end up turning into guys that never learn how to do it on their own. They have to then go get with somebody else because they didn't have a vet to show them how to do it. Right? So then they go get the game and then it's like, oh, I got the game now. All right, now I— but you kind of miss your window.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Like Steph is Steph because he was able to push through that window when he got the opportunity in year 5. You know?

Yeah.

And like you start looking at guys who did it and pushed through their windows. They probably had some great vets around. Like we had incredible vets.

Yeah.

You know, so when I speak of Steph, We had Bogut was great, you know, D. Lee, we, but we had Jared Jack come through there. We had Jermaine O'Neal come through there. We had Richard Jefferson come, like we had great vets come through there. Then David West came in and even though we had won championships there, we was still young. So we would still get wild. Yeah. D. West, Andre come in the game, they settled the game down. Like we needed that. Although we had won championship before, it was like, yeah, we know how to win and we got the skill, but we needed those young— we come out there, me and Steph be fucking throwing it out of bounds. I throw it over here thinking he going that way, he done ran the other way. Like, but you know, to your point of passing them open, sometimes that happens, you know? And like, they come in and it's like, whoo, all right, now here we go. You know what I mean? These teams don't have that and it's a problem.

Yeah. Yeah, that hurts me deeply, man, watching. I was at an Aces game this summer and I was sitting next to John Wall. That just doesn't sit well with me, bro. I know what happened in Washington, bro, but this man can help a team just for that main reason. Long as the veterans understand when you come in there what it's all about. Yeah, I think that he deserves— what if he was in Orlando to try to help out those young guards? I'm just saying, I'm just giving names, man. It's just to me, they're just not—

It's a lot of knowledge, man. It's like you need the knowledge.

You gotta—

yeah, when you got the The knowledge, the story is relatable. Sometimes you just can't relate to that young coach who just got outta college, just wanna watch film and get rebounds for you. You need somebody that got stories or can watch the film and tell you what's coming or how you fit in or no, you ain't that, you are more like this. You know what I mean? And so having that insight, you kinda lose that, with the vet, with not having a vet in the room. And so that young dude, he don't develop. He wind up going and getting traded, get traded, get traded. And then it's, you know, luck of the draw for some of these really young talented kids to find that team at some point and stick. And, you know, it's just not having veterans who can identify if they're gonna be good or not. You know what I mean? Like sometimes— Yeah. Hey, Coach. Chill out, man, he gonna be all right, I got him. You know what I mean? And you need that personal care and that's not being exemplified, I don't think, on hardly any of these rosters. But that's the difference between, you know, the teams that wanna win championships and develop young talent than the teams that wanna stay in the middle of the pack.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

No doubt. And, and just speaking of vets, obviously, like you said, been at Memphis since 2018. Is it a dream of yours still to coach in the NBA at some point?

Yeah, for sure. I, I definitely wanna coach in the NBA, man. I get my juices flowing when I sit in the arena. When you gave me those seats, I'm just watching y'all going, man, I could, 'cause I feel like I can help a lot of young guys, Dray, 'cause I know the game. I played the game. They still respect my, my brand and who I am. I feel like my game is, my coaching is really built more for the NBA than college. I'm happy to be here 'cause I'm home. It's come full circle. I love my city, I love my school. But ultimately, I've mentioned this before, I want to be in the NBA.

Yeah.

Uh, I don't know where that's gonna be, but I want to help, help somebody win. I want to help players get better. I want to be a part of something, whether it's, it's just starting or whether it's on the cusp of winning a championship. I'm fine either way, man, because I'm a grinder. So definitely want to coach in the NBA.

Yeah, I definitely wanna see you in the league, man.

Oh yeah.

I mean, just, I feel like your knowledge with the pros, you know what I mean? And just your insight with the pros and even watching Memphis, just your concepts, like all of those are pro schemes, pro concepts, and you need professionals. You know what I mean? It's like, man, if you can work with the talent, professional high-level talent and get into they psyche and give 'em what you got, Like that's what the league needs. You know what I mean? It needs coaches that have been there, coaches who have played, you know, and coaches who have paid their dues that's been around these young kids.

Yeah.

Someone like you who got endless amount of stories and you lived it. You know what I'm saying? You like, you are really about this life. I would love to see that, you know, with top tier talent. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I just think it's about building relationships with the guys. 'Cause when I get there, because I'm gonna be there, it's just about building a relationship with the young guys. Young studs like Apollo and those guys, you know, and it's, it's something that I enjoy, man. I'm a ball, I'm a gym rat. I'm a ball guy. I live in the gym. I love the gym. I told that to the Orlando Magic a couple years ago. I am a gym rat, bro. I love it like a kaminga, you know, those guys, man. It's just to watch film, to talk to 'em every day, to be a part of their lives. All these guys that have the, the, the ability to go to that next level that a, that a franchise is waiting on. Yeah. I said this to a GM a couple years ago. That's a good friend of mine. I was like, man, whenever I come, I'm coming hard because I'm, I'll be excited. I'll be, it'll be like being a rookie to me all over again because I would be as coaching, but I'll bring so much to the table with those guys.

So I'm from Saginaw, Michigan and I've always heard stories about, I don't know the history, but I know at one point your agent was from Saginaw.

Yeah. Yeah. The Poston brothers.

Absolutely. And I saw, I've always heard these stories about, and then I try to incorporate it with my own knowledge and my own experiences. I know in signing with Nike, for most guys, Nike owns the logo that then goes on your shoe. I was always told that you, through your agent, y'all came up with the idea of the 1 Cent logo. And that you owned your own logo. And then I wanna say, is that true? And if so, what was the idea behind that? Because that one cent penny logo is legendary.

I'm gonna be very honest. Nike owns 1% more than me. They own, they own the logo, but it's, it's like I'm right there. So yeah, it's not like I own my own logo. I wish, and I was talking about this to my agents some years ago and 'cause MJ, the way he gets it done. I was like, man, I should have tried to get my own logo and own all of it. But Nike's so smart. They've been a blessing to me, bro. You know how Nike is, man. It's the first class.

Absolutely.

First class all the way. Still making my shoes. But I wish I owned my own logo, but I own them. I own a lot of it.

Okay.

A large percentage of it.

Yeah.

But it's, it's just a marriage that to me that just fits, man, because they put me on the map, you know, along with my game. Yes, sir. And they pumped me out there and they did what they had to do. So that, I wish your story was true. It, it, it's still, you know, I own, I own a large majority. I don't own the entire, entire logo.

That's incredible. I love Nike, man.

I, I gotta, I gotta ask about Lil Penny since we on the one cent.

Oh, you know, Lil Penny was crazy, man. It's just, it was this advertising agency that worked for Nike called Wieden and Kennedy. And man, they came up, Stacy Wall is the guy's name. They came up with the alter ego because I was just a silent assassin. And Lil Penny was, he was the shit talker. He was the guy that was talking about— He was up. He gonna bust y'all. He ain't gonna say it, but I'm gonna tell you, my man's about to bust you up. So that worked out, man. And to me it was comedy because it was Chris Rock. And I heard that they went after Martin Lawrence back in the day. I heard that they went after Damon Wayans, maybe even Will Smith, maybe, you know, those guys. But when Chris Rock wasn't the Chris Rock at the time, He took it and I think it's not a better voice for that character, man. He took it to another level.

Oh man, he made it feel like that was like your real homeboy. You know what I mean? Like we felt like Lil Penny was like, "Hey man, that gotta be his partner. He gotta be made off of like one of your best friends." And like, "Yeah, shut up, homie. Hey, hey, be quiet." That character is, I mean, utterly iconic. You know, me as a, as an entertainer, a writer, a creator, man, I look at that Lil Penny as a reference for a lot of things that I do creatively. But I mean, as far as like the dynamic, that shit was crazy.

Oh man, they did a phenomenal job, bro. Phenomenal, man.

The pool party, dog. Oh, it was a good one.

The Super Bowl party, the pool party, Tyra Banks, the whole deal.

The Tyra Banks, that was crazy.

That was crazy, bro. Shout out to Nike, man. Phil Knight, my guy.

That's legendary, man. Top 5 point guards ever. We like a good list. Top 5 point guards ever.

We got this one down.

Bro, I'm starting with Magic 'cause that's my guy. I'm putting Steph in there for sure. It's tough for me, man, 'cause there's so many dudes.

Yeah, it gets tough. It's so many dudes.

I'm gonna throw my boy GP in there because he played both sides of it. I'm going GP, Gary Payton.

Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely.

You gotta put J-Kidd in there. J-Kidd. Absolutely. J-Kidd.

It get tough, man. It get tough.

It get real tough. And I got so many guys, man. Like—

Yeah. You got CP, you got John Stockton, you got—

Steve Nash.

Steve Nash.

You got—

I'm thinking about all the Dream Teams here, man.

I might, I might go Steph, Magic, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd. Maybe.

I know I'm in that 5, but I'm just saying my other, the other person. I'm just saying me. That's where I'm gonna leave it.

Okay, done, done.

That way we can leave it there. But I'm not slighting anybody else 'cause I'm a huge fan of a lot of people, bro. All those guys, Stockton and all those guys. But you know, you gotta have someone that, you know, you like more than others. And those are my guys, those guys that I named. So, and they were all legends.

They're all legends. Yeah, for sure.

1000%. It's, it, I mean, the reality is those, it's hard to make a list, man. It's the NBA. It's the greatest players ever. Like, it's never gonna be easy to make a list and someone's always gonna be left off of somebody else's list. That's just the way it is.

Yeah. 'Cause I know I'm off a lot of guys' list. They, they're naming their guys. So it is what it is. But I know they still respected my game. So it's all good.

Last one before we get outta here. What do you see for your Memphis? Basketball team achieving, uh, this year? Uh, y'all off to an incredible start. Starting, starting up conference play.

Yeah.

Uh, what do you foresee for this group that you currently have?

Yeah, I got a special group of guys, man. Obviously making the NCAA tournament is the number one thing. And when you get in the tournament, you know that anything can happen. I'm the guy in my 7th year now. I've gotten so much more wiser about how I see things. I want to be the best team playing in, in March. You know, I've never really said that. I've said I want to make the NCAA tournament, we want to win a championship, but I've learned to continue to grow every single day. And once you get in, you have as great a chance to beat anybody on any given night. So I give us a chance against anybody on any given night, uh, when you have one day in between, you know. So for me, making the tournament, staying healthy, and then being the— growing every single day and being the best team in March, we can, we can make some noise. Yes, sir.

Amazing. OG, we appreciate you, man.

Hey, I appreciate y'all too, man. Appreciate you too, man. For sure, man.

You a god, point god.

Thank y'all boys, man. Appreciate it.

Love you, bro. Love you, man. We love you.

Appreciate you so much.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.