Steph's greatness, how Kevin Garnett was almost a Warrior & NBA enforcers | The Draymond Green Show

Man, I'm extremely excited to welcome this next guest. A big brother of mine, a former teammate, a guy who I won a championship with, but even, but more importantly, someone that I've respected since I came into this league. Been an enforcer. I actually watched back when I was in high school, I think, playing with the Golden State Warriors with Jason Richardson, who's obviously from Saginaw, Michigan. And so that was my connection to the Warriors at that point. Watching the We Believe team, one of the guys who really brought that energy, that dog to that team and was a part of the reason why that team has an era in Golden State Warriors history. I cannot be more excited to welcome none other than one half of All the Smoke, the other half of All the Smoke.

My brother.

Matt Barnes, my brother. Welcome to the Draymond Green Show.

Man, appreciate you having me and congratulations on the show, man. I love that you're in this space. I knew it would only be a matter of time.

Thank you, I appreciate it. Now after, you know, after watching how you and Stack doing it, I always tell people when I came on to y'all's show, I felt like I just talked about everything. And part of the reason why I talked about everything is 'cause y'all make that a safe space to get whatever it is that you want off your chest. Share whatever it is, whether it's basketball, whether it's life, whatever it is, let's talk about it right here. And so I think y'all have done a special job. And what y'all are doing is creating a path for guys like myself who obviously still currently playing, but you know, athletes getting into the space and really owning the content and all the things that y'all have been able to do is special.

So— Thank you.

I appreciate y'all for trailblazing this path, man. 'Cause this, I enjoy this. It's a lot of fun for me.

Yeah, that was really the goal, you know, when I came up with the idea, you know, as you spoke to it, a safe space, you know, normally any kind of conversation, you kind of have to be on edge if you're dealing with the media. And now that we've transformed from athletes to media, I wanted to still have that kind of same connection and energy because, you know, you and I have had several conversations off the record, but I feel like, we can still have those conversations on the record as long as it's a safe space. So yeah, I think we've been able to create, first and foremost, a safe space where guys feel comfortable and we can relate to each other. And I really feel like that's what brings out the best content, you know? So again, I'm excited that you're in this space, 'cause I've just always felt like, you know, outside of basketball, you've got a great mind and you lend so much to so many different fields. So it's dope to, you know, have bro in this space, man. I'm glad, I'm happy for you. Thank you.

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. How the boys, man?

They're good, bro. They just turned 13. Can't tell 'em shit. They got their little mustaches lined up by the barber for the first time. So it is dope, man. I got teenagers now, so it's been a blast. And then Ash, little man, just turned 3 2 weeks ago, man. So, you know, I got teenagers and I got a 3-year-old, so it's been fun.

That's beautiful. It's great for Ash too. He try to keep up with them. Oh man, you know, 'cause—

He's the young, you know, he's a young, with, you know, my girl has 3 kids from her previous marriage. So we got 6 kids under 13. So he's the youngest. So he's definitely thuggin' it out, pickin' up a few words I wish he could've probably waited 10 years to pick up, but you know, that's what happens.

Absolutely. No, but obviously you had an incredible career and what we share in common, you were the 46th pick in the draft, 2nd round pick. And I think, I know for myself going second round, it brought a chip for me, especially, you know, I came outta college, National Player of the Year over Anthony Davis, over Damian Lillard, over all these guys. And I went second round. And I feel like that fueled me. I wanted to destroy every one of those guys that drafted above me. I wanted to destroy. Every team that didn't pick me. That fueled me. Was that something that you carried with you through your career? How long could you carry the second round chip until you was kind of over it?

I mean, shit, I still carry it to this day. You know what I mean? I mean, I take the same mindset I had in basketball to business, but you know, being a second round pick, not really getting a chance to even play. I was in Cleveland with John Lucas, one of the first cuts, like maybe 4 practices in, didn't really give me a chance, never let me get into drills or anything. So, you know, I was off to the D-League at the time, But you know, me coming into the league in '02, it's really back in that day, it was really about a position. You know, in UCLA, I was similar to you. I was Swiss Army knife. You know, I can play anything, but majority of the time I was an undersized power forward. You know, and in 2002, coming into league, the power forwards are Chris Webber, Antonio McDyess, Kevin Garnett, you know, and I'm 6'7", 210 at the time. So I really felt like I was kind of positionless because of the way I played at UCLA. So it was almost like I had to reinvent myself as a pro. And it took a lot of hard knocks because, you know, again, towards the end of my career and when you came in, it was less about position. It was just more about basketball and IQ. And again, so I had to kind of learn how to be a wing on the fly. So I always knew that I could play defense. So I just played my ass off on defense hoping that that would gimme some time to develop, you know, develop into a wing, which I had to be at, you know, the first 10 years of my career. And then like the last 4 again, The game got smaller, the game got faster. So I was able to move from the 2 to the 3 to the 4 or whatever, sometimes even the 5. So, but to answer your original question, you know, definitely it was a chip that I've had really my whole career. You know, I came into UCLA, we had the number 1 recruiting class back-to-back years, but I was the least heralded recruit. You know, we had Jerron Rush, Ray Young, Dan Gadziori, Draymond Green, so all McDonald's All-Americans. I wasn't, you know, I was playing football at the time, so I wasn't really tripping off the McDonald's All-American type stuff. But, you know, it was always kind of just a grind. Grind. And you know, if you were to look back at that team with Baron Davis, Earl Watson, Capono, everyone I listed, I would probably be the one that people say, well, is he gonna make it? And I ended up being the one that played the actual longest out of that whole group of names. So it's always kind of just been my mentality again. And I've taken that perspective from playing into this business world and kind of keep that same chip on my shoulder.

Nah, it's definitely fuel, man. And, drives you for sure. But speaking of, you just, you spoke on football, that you were playing football. I think a lot of people don't know your football background, your resume. Obviously I've heard, I know all the resume, just sitting on them planes and in the locker room, you kind of get everything. But tell these people about your football resume, man. I don't think they quite understand.

Football was my first sport. I grew up playing football, tackle football in the streets. You know, my dad was in and out of trouble. And would always play Sunday flat or tackle football leagues at the park. So I grew up at the park watching football. So naturally football is my first sport. I really didn't take basketball up until about junior high as far as taking basketball serious, but I was natural at it. It was easily my best sport. Basketball was a lot more challenging than football was. But when I was just thinking, you know, as a youngster, as we're playing, you can't tell no young kid that they're not going pro. So in my mind, all right, am I gonna go pro in football or basketball? And having a decorated high school receiver, I led the nation in touchdowns my senior year with 28 with a broken toe, kept playing. I was first team All-American, recruited by everyone in football. But when that time started to go to college, do I want to play both or do I really want to lock in and try to make a real career out of one of them? So I just chose basketball for longevity because at the time, being 6'8", there wasn't too many 6'8" receivers. And Harold Carmichael, you look back at the old Philadelphia Eagles, Now the NFL, or I'd probably say maybe about 10 years ago, the NFL started looking at basketball players as valuable assets on the football field. You know, you see a bunch of guys that didn't even play football that are, you know, making good money in the NFL now. But again, at that time it wasn't too common. So, you know, again, basketball was a lot more challenging for me. I had to work a lot harder, but that's always something I'm, you know, into was grinding. So I chose basketball and, you know, it ended up working out. It ended up working out well. But, you know, there's not a day that passes, and I know you kind of feel the same way, you're still in the midst of your career, but I know you love I love football to death and I'm always looking back like, damn, what if I would've went this way? You know, I might not have played as long, but I knew I'd have had a nice splash because, you know, I ran in high school, I ran a 4.39, you know, had a 39-inch vertical. I could really play, I could really catch. I knew how to run routes and, you know, I love physicality. So, you know, football was really my, you know, God-given talent. And, you know, I chose basketball to make a career out of though.

That's interesting. I think for me, I actually, I wasn't that good at football. Like I was a pretty good defensive end. I could lock the edge down and like you wasn't running around the edge. You was gonna have to cut it back to the middle. But I wasn't great. Like I was decent. Mm-hmm.

Pretty good.

But I didn't think, I thought for me, when I stopped playing, I stopped playing after my freshman. So everybody think I played at Michigan State because of those couple clips when I played in the spring game. But I really stopped playing football after my freshman year of high school. And the reason I stopped playing football after my freshman year of high school was because now that I look back on it, I was probably wrong. But from my freshman year to my sophomore year, I grew from 6 feet to the height I am today. And my knees were hurting so bad to where—

I was gonna slaughter.

Yeah. Yes. When we had basketball tryout right after football season, I couldn't run. Like I'm talking about, I'm like, jaw, like almost walking up and down the floor. I could not move. And so in my mind, you know, guys had been chopping me down that year. So I was taller, obviously I was growing and getting taller and they were chopping me down. So in my mind, I thought to myself, like, I need to make a decision right now if I really wanna play football or am I just going all in on basketball? Football stuff is messing up my knees. Little did I know I was in the midst of a growth spurt and that's where my knee pains were coming from. But I stopped playing because I thought football was messing up my knees and going into basketball season. I'm like, I love basketball and I think I'm better at basketball than I am at football. So I'mma just stop.

Right.

But so then I played in that spring game. I just knew that that would be my last time in life ever being able, have an opportunity to play football. So I went out there and I asked him like, yo, Coach D, can I play a couple plays in the spring game? And it wasn't serious. It was just like me getting out there to say I did it. And I did it, but I wasn't that good, man. Like I was okay at that time. Like I move well today. I moved well then, but not fluid. And so my routes, like at tight end, my routes weren't great. Like I had good hands, but my routes weren't great. I just didn't move as fluid.—

Right.

—as I do today. So it was a little different for me.

See, that's interesting because again, I think I looked at football the way you looked at basketball. Like, I love football, but I started playing basketball more because again, you know, when you're 13, 14, 15, you're starting to grow. And I just kept growing. I want to say in junior high, I was like 8th grade, I was about 5'10" and by the start of my freshman year, I was 6'4". So then from 6', from freshman year to senior year, I grew up to, grew to 6'8". So basketball kind of took center stage, but at the same time, like my love passion was football. Like, I loved to hit. I didn't mind getting hit. Like, that was my whole thing. And I really kind of felt like, you know, I made a 14-year NBA career out of just being a wide receiver. You know, I get out on the lanes, run the lane. Chris Paul, you, Steph, whoever passed me the ball in the lanes, I finish. And then always, everyone always was like, why are you so physical? Or why do you— and to me, it was just that football mentality. Like, I love being able to mix it up. You know, at the beginning of my career, we really got to play real defense. You know, when you went across the paint, you got hit with the arm bar. And I loved all that shit. I love when when bigger dudes hit me, 'cause I'm gonna try to hit him back later. You know what I mean? So in the NBA was kind of my thought process. So again, like really I took that football mentality and just applied it to basketball. So it was, again, my true love is football and, you know, God blessed me and allowed me to, you know, make a career outta basketball off of it.

Nah, it's dope. I think for me personally also, I like, even today, you know, you talk about that physicality, like, The NBA soft to me, man.

Oh man.

The NBA is soft. The physic, and the reality is the NFL is starting to get a little soft. It has gotten a little soft too, but I get it. I do understand with all the concussion stuff and like all the end, the type of injuries that guys were having. I get it. Some of the calls I can do without, but I do understand their point of view and like why they're trying to clean the game up because it actually alters a lot of guys' livelihoods. Or the lives that they live outside of football and after football. So I get it. But to this day, like, I still enjoy watching football way more than basketball. Like, I watch basketball, but I watch football, like, religiously.

Yeah. Yeah. So I watch basketball now to watch people I know still, you know what I mean? The homies, you, KD, you know, guys, Chris Paul, guys I play with. But Sunday Ticket comes on, I'll watch every single motherfucking game. Like, I'll sit in my man cave and watch basketball and smoke a couple joints throughout the day. Everyone knows Sunday don't fuck with dad. He's watching football. So I'm completely on that same page.

Absolutely. So you then make the decision to go UCLA for basketball, 4 good years at UCLA. You come into the league, you bounce around a little bit, and then you sign with the Warriors. What end up, how did you come across the opportunity to sign with the Warriors?

Oh, just a quick, so G League, Clippers signed me to a 10-day, 2 10-days, make the team. They're ready to, after my first year, 2002, 2003. They're ready to gimme a 2-year minimum deal. But this is in the midst of in the early 2000s when it was Sacramento Kings and Lakers. You know what I mean? So I'm going to school at UCLA, but I'm from Sac. C. Webb's my big homie, you know, another Detroit dude. So I'm always hanging with him in the summertime, working out with him, White Chocolate. Mike Bibby comes along, Bobby Jackson, those kind of guys. So those are the guys I'm working out with every summer. And I hadn't took the Clipper deal. I was just like, it's great. I have an opportunity. Let, you know, let's grind and see happen to find anywhere that people that wanna gimme some money. So I go into, and we're working out at the Kings facility every day, and this is when they had Rick Adelman, and he came up to me and asked me what I was doing. I kinda told him about the Clippers situation. He's like, you know, I think you'd be a great fit here in your hometown. Do you wanna come here? I'm like, what? Hell yeah. So I end up passing on that 2-year deal, which is crazy, but I took a 1-year deal with Sacramento, and then that's the year they trade Webb to Philly. So then I go with C-Webb. I'mma throw in on that trade. I go with C-Webb to Philly and don't get a chance to play for almost 2 years behind Mo Cheeks. I almost end up fucking Mo Cheeks up and I probably never would've got a chance to play basketball, period. Get through that. So I'm at a crossroads after playing 1 solid year with the, or half a season with the Clippers, a solid half year with the Kings, on the bench for 2 years in Philly. So people are like, okay, you know, that window, my time is ticking. So I'm almost to the point now where I'm like, shit, if no teams are really calling, I'm doing summertime football workouts with my brother, 'cause my brother was just coming outta college too. So he was getting ready to play football as well. So I'm doing 2 days a week, I'm doing football, and 4 days a week I'm doing basketball just to kinda see what pops off. My agent had 10 NFL teams lined up for private workouts. But this is when my college teammate Baron was with the Warriors, and he hit me up one day like, yo, we're having a pickup game down here in Oakland. If you're not doing nothing, pull up. I'm like, shit, all right. You know, I'm an hour, hour 20. Get dressed, hop in the car, go down there and drive down there. And ended up doing really well. The team was in town. I ended up doing really well that day. And I didn't know at the time that, you know, the coaches in the old practice field, the coach's office can see the floor. So I didn't know Don Nelson was watching the whole time. He comes down after, asks me what I'm doing. I'm just like, you know, to be honest, Coach, phone's not ringing. I'm just, you know, I'm trying to make it. And he's like, you know, I can't promise you nothing. We already have 16 guarantees and our roster's full for training camp. But if you play as hard as you did today, I'm gonna give you a chance. And I was just like, "Shit, that's all I need is like a real chance." So Nelly was the first one to really, you know, after my first, you know, my first years to really like, "Okay, I'm gonna give you a chance to see what you got." So I ended up beating out everyone in training camp and then two guys that had guaranteed contracts, or non-guarantees, they had contract guarantees for training camp, ended up beating them out and ended up being like the last player another 14th or 15th guy. And you know, from there it was just grinding. And any chance I got, I would go and produce. I'd go play 10 minutes, I'd have 6 points, 7 rebounds, and I'd, you know, guard people and make assists and make plays. So Nelly slowly but surely started trusting me enough to where by mid-season I'm starting. And now they're trying to think, okay, you know, we've signed Dunleavy and Murphy to these deals. We're not really going nowhere. So, you know, I made, I made them feel more comfortable going out and trading those two guys that, you know, that had got deals. And that's how we ended up bringing Stack and Al Harrington from Indiana to that team. And then, you know, we tried to get our shit together a little bit and we become the We Believe team in like a month and a half. People don't— people think the We Believe team was like a whole year or crazy. They don't understand that was post-trade. And we started off shitty 'cause Baron was hurt. Jack was getting in— Jack was still in trouble for some other shit he was doing. So we really hit our stride like the last, 25 games. And then, you know, into the playoffs, we made NBA history, but it was really a short-lived experience. But I say all that to say, like, it came about because literally my college teammate Baron Davis called me, told me to come play pickup. I impressed Nelly and Nelly gave me a chance.

That's interesting. And so y'all have that last half of the year, play well, beat the Mavericks in the first round. Lose to Utah in the second round. What happened the following year? Why didn't that team come back to the playoffs? Why didn't that team continue to trend upwards as opposed to just having that one year?

So before this, Golden State, you know, looking back on it now and you learn the history and you know, management and everything, and people don't understand how important management is. Winning starts at the top. And as a player, you know, a younger player, you don't really realize that. You look at the players like, okay, we're gonna be straight. Winning starts at the top. So Golden State had a history of getting people in and getting them out for some reason. They never really paid the right people. They never really built anything. So what happened was, and it's funny too, 'cause I was just with Kevin Garnett a couple days ago. He came over 'cause we're working on a couple projects, but we started talking about this shit. So we were supposed to trade Jason Richardson and our lottery, or our pick that we had. I'm not sure if it was lottery, but I think it was 'cause we ended up getting Brandon Wright. Mm-hmm. We were supposed to trade Jay Rich and our pick to get Kevin Garnett. And so that was the— and I didn't really know how— I heard rumors until I finally had KG on the show. And then we really got into it when he was here the other day. So we were supposed to get Kevin Garnett that year basically for Jason Richardson. So we would've added Kevin Garnett to that young team. And it was funny 'cause we were over here talking the other day, just like, man, you guys were young and wild and off the court wild too. And I loved your energy, but I didn't know I could have hung with y'all, but it was funny just to hear from his mouth. So he really considered, he said his 3 teams were, he called it that team in Oakland, the Lakers, and the Celtics. And he ended, obviously ended up going with Celtics and winning a championship. So the plan, like I said, the plan was to trade Jay Rich for Kevin Garnett. And Kevin Garnett was supposed to come to that We Believe team that following year. But to slow down a little bit, so the very beginning of that year, My mom is diagnosed with cancer November 1st, which is the beginning of the season, and she dies November 27th. So within 26 days, I find out my best friend in the world is sick and she's gone not even a month later. So for me personally, obviously I wasn't the best player on that team. That was, you know, BD, Stack, Jay Rich, Monte, you name 'em. But I was like the heart and soul of that team, you know?

Sure.

So, you know, for me to kind of go down that next season, in my head it's in the clouds, literally the first 3 or 4 months. Of that season. But what's crazy about that was, again, I had a breakout season with Golden State. Nelly gave me a chance. They offered me a 3-year, $12 million deal at the time. And during the playoffs, I'm hearing, you know, like, Matt Barnes is gonna get paid. You know, he should be one of these, you know, high 20s, low 30 guys. So I'm thinking like, so I'm hearing that all during the season. And then, you know, once the season's over, Golden State is really quick with their deal. So I think they were just trying to steal me before I can really hit the market. And, you know, the summer, you know, rest in peace, Dan Fager was my agent at the time. He let a nice high $20 million deal go to Dallas. He was asking for more and they didn't want to give him more. I was on vacation, didn't tell me. They ended up signing Jerry Stackhouse and Devin George with the money they were going to give me. I ended up firing Dan and didn't take that deal, but ended up going back for like a $4 million deal to Golden State. So I say all that to say, when I was, when my mom died and I was finally kind of starting ready to play in January, Nelly pulled me to the side and said, "I'm glad you didn't take a long-term deal here. Your time here is up." I'm like, "What the fuck, nigga? You know my mom just died, all this shit. Like what the fuck?" And one thing I always respect about Nelly, he was a straight shooter. There was no bullshit with him. I just didn't understand where it was coming from. And I think because I was in the midst of my mom dying, he was probably mad already in the preseason, obviously. But he couldn't really get on me or show me that because my mom had died. So I was just kind of in and out of it. So once I really felt like I was mentally ready to really get back in the mix, he pulls me to the side and tells me what he just told me. I'm like, "What the fuck? This motherfucker right here." And bro, I didn't really— I rarely played the rest of the season. So after that, I was out of there.

That's crazy.

But I think the fact that he, you know, that he gave me the opportunity to really get my career on track, which I appreciate. But you know, as younger players, we want to get as much money as we possibly can. If someone's offering you $12 million and you're hearing, you know, high $20s, maybe even $30 million, I'm gonna see what that is because we, you know, we know how fast and small our window is. Ended up not working out, taking the $4 million deal and he held that against me, man, unfortunately.

Wow. That's crazy. That's interesting. But I'll tell you why. I know you just mentioned like, I wasn't the best player on that team or, you know, you weren't the top scorer. You probably weren't top 4 or 5 scorers. But I think the role that you played on every team, I think the role that you played on every team that you were on, including even when you came to the Warriors the second time, was you were an enforcer. You were an enforcer. And I think, and I would love to know how you feel about this, but I don't think a team can win a championship if they don't have an enforcer. You could look at the Milwaukee Bucks, for instance, they bring in PJ Tucker. As an enforcer and boom, just like that, they win a championship. Now it's not an overnight thing, right? Like it just doesn't happen overnight, but they already had a great core group of guys.

Right.

And now, and they needed an enforcer. And I think Bobby Portis was trying to be that for them, but Bobby Portis had never really been an enforcer. He had been a younger guy who— It's not the league. Who was kind of looking for his scoring in the league and through Chicago and then with the Knicks, kind of looking for a different thing. And then he gets to Milwaukee. I know he realizes like, dang, there's a lane for that. And let me try to be that because he's naturally a tough dude. Like he ain't no slouch. You ain't bullying Bobby Portis.

Right.

Just naturally a tough dude, but also not a very outspoken dude.

Mm-hmm.

And most enforcers are outspoken or not, or they'll speak out. And Bobby Portis isn't really someone who speaks out. So you bring in PJ, who now takes that team to the next level as an enforcer. And while doing that, he shows Bobby Portis how to do it. You know, because like I said, he's not a slouch. He's not soft at all. Just had never done it before. And then you bring in a guy who has done it. And show him the way. And now I think he's taken on that role for that team. But I think there's, I think every team, if you're gonna be a great team, and I would love to hear your feelings, you need an enforcer. You have to have one.

So I completely agree. And whether it's an enforcer, glue guy, I think the term enforcer has kind of watered down over the years because the style of the play of the NBA. So when we say enforcer, it's not someone that's gonna go out there and fight people and do this. And, but if you have to, you will. But at the end of the day, it's someone with that energy that's gonna bring it constantly, whether it be in practice or the game. And I, you know, to me, I look at you as an enforcer. You know, I think you took that role to another level with all the accolades you've been able to acquire over the real. But at the end of the time, when I tell people, like, that team is great, just like I was telling you before we talked, like, that team was great. That, that was a really good team, but it, it's not a dynasty without the tangible thing that you brought to that team day in, day out, practice.

Yeah.

I even say the organization. Like, I felt like it's a mentality that the organization takes on of that particular player, you know what I mean? It's just a no-nonsense, no bullshit, we're gonna play basketball. If we need to fight, we could fight, but let's just play basketball type mentality. And, you know, the thing about me is, you know, I bounced around my career, but everywhere I went, I played. Everywhere I went, I started or was the first guy. Mm-hmm. 6th, you know, first guy or second guy off the bench, you know what I mean? And it was always a situation because I kind of feel like management doesn't really necessarily have a real pulse of the team. They're not in there during practice. They're not in the locker room. They don't see how you create bridges and put out fires. And I think a perfect example was that Lob City team, you know what I mean? 'Cause, you know, Doc and I got into it and I was the first trade 'cause Doc was on some bullshit and he knows it. But I was the first trade because I was like, "Fuck what you talking about, Doc. I'm a man, don't disrespect me. We're gonna have a real problem if you do." I end up getting traded. But the second I get traded from that team, I'm constantly getting calls from CP, JJ, DJ, like, "Man, we miss you. We've been telling Doc to bring you back, this, this, and that." So there's certain tangibles that you bring as a player when you're that kind of player that don't necessarily always show up on the stat sheets. You know, again, you're not the All-Star, you're not this, you're not that. Very vital to team success, you know? So, um, I completely agree. I really feel like— and there are very few, I feel like, of you guys left in the league because the league is so— going in such a different direction now. It's more up-tempo, it's more scoring, it's more points, it's less defense, it's less physicality. Um, but I understand and respect it and appreciate it. But at the end of the day, like I said, I think there's less of those guys. But you could really tell the teams that do still have success in this league have a guy or two like that on the team still.

100%. No, I think you definitely need it. I think also even from the standpoint of like, there are certain things that go on the court and especially, and guys do stuff to your superstar that you can't just let it ride. And if you don't have that guy on the team, your superstar will probably be one of the most disrespected superstars in the league. I'll say his name because I actually think he's one of the most talented guys in our league. And I got a lot of love for him. Like that's my dog. We won a gold medal together. Paul George. Paul George does not get the respect he deserves. Paul George is one of the most talented players in our league. He's accomplished a hell of a lot in our league. But I feel like one of the reasons Paul George don't get the respect, that he deserves because Paul George be having to fight for himself. And Paul George should never have to fight for himself. I'm sorry, but Steph Curry not fighting for himself. And you can say what you want to say about him, what you think he, uh, I don't think he gonna fight back. He ain't gotta fight for himself, nor should he have to.

You'll never know if he can because someone else is gonna handle it.

Exactly. He, and, and I feel like Paul George He has to fight for himself a lot. And I don't know any superstar that don't have somebody that's gonna fight for them. And he don't always have that. And so I just think that's very important, not only to your team, but to the star of your team as well. You gotta have somebody that's putting their neck on the line for that guy, no matter what it is.

Yeah.

And like you said, we saw you do, we see myself with Steph. We saw you do that with CP. We saw you come on the team. When you came on the team, it was like I took a backseat in that role. Like, Matt protecting all of us out here. Like, it's cool. And so I think that's very important. And we see that happening around the league. Like, I sometimes see like a guy hit Trae Young and Trae Young, nah, somebody who coming to take care of this young dude, man.

Right. The same thing. You see that.

You see his rescue.

You see that there, you see that with Jayson Tatum. Like there's a handful of these stars that kind of have to fend for themselves, you know? And that was a role that I embraced. I love, you know, when I went out there, yeah, we would love, who wouldn't love to score 30 points a game? But I look forward to, all right, I'm gonna guard the best player every night. And then I know I got my team's back. You know, that's family. So you fuck with CP, you fuck with Kobe, rest in peace, Steve Nash, Steph, Kev, you, whoever. Like it's all, it's gonna be a war. You know what I mean? And that was a role that I loved because I, you know, that was one thing I was brought up in my family. My dad was nuts in the streets on drugs, but you protect your family at all costs. You know, I always looked at my teammates as my family. So I always figured like the superstar has enough to do. You know what I mean? I got a chance to play with Kobe. So he was giving to you on both ends, dog tired every game. He should never have to worry about somebody coming at him. You know what I mean?

Absolutely.

And that's pretty much how I got on the team. You know what I mean? Because I came at him. Ron Artest came at him the year before. So he was like, "Fuck these, I'm gonna go get both these crazy motherfuckers to have mine back." You know what I mean? So to me, superstars have enough. So you always need that guy or two that can hold it down. Even sometimes when it's not needed, like you said, well, I don't know if he's gonna be a— you'll never find out because you're gonna have to go through a lot to even know if Steph will fight back or Steph will say something back type situation.

Absolutely. No, and speaking of that, just the toughness, the smoke, you know, you transitioned obviously as a retiring as a player, you moved into All the Smoke. You've been doing a bunch of different things off the court, but All the Smoke is where I think you've obviously made the biggest mark. 'Cause it's the biggest hit.

Right.

It's the show we all listen to. It's the show, you know, you look forward to. I think the guests that y'all bring on, the authenticity of the show, So it's special and it's named after what I know you and Stack Jack love dearly, All the Smoke. That's a part of who you are. But what is your favorite part of All the Smoke? Or like what do you love about having that platform that y'all have created?

I think first and foremost, if I speak personally, it was to be able to show the other side of me. You know, because I think there was such, I always had such a, Well, I say reputations are earned, whether good or bad, but I think there was such a misconception as who I was as a person while I played, because you gotta think, you know, social media didn't really hit until the end of my career. I mean, so there was always, "Oh, he's got tattoos, he's this, he's that, he's always fighting." So people are like, you know, "He's probably some dumb athlete, da da da da." And then when people start hearing me speak, they're like, "Oh shit, he can hold a conversation. Oh shit, he's intelligent." So I think really first and foremost, kind of shed the stigma that there was about me. Is what I appreciate most. But then when I, you know, I look at the bigger picture, I think it's the first thing you said was creating a safe space for us. I think for so long our stories have been told by other people. Not even, most of the time, not even people that are the same ethnicity as us. You know, other people trying to tell our stories that never walked a day in our shoes or could even put our shoes on. So I think that All the Smoke has allowed us to be able to change the narrative overall. Mm-hmm. And for people to, you know, feel safe to be able to say stuff they may not be able to say, but they want to say, you know? So I just think we've created a safe haven. And I think one thing that has also added to our success is, like you said, people know Stack and I. And I think that we haven't— sometimes coming into this media space, and you'll learn once you're done, but I don't think it'll affect you because you know who you are, is some of these people come in and change who they are. Mm-hmm. To fit in at particular networks or situations. And that was never my thing. Like, I'm at ESPN and I see guys that I'm with that are kind of moving up sometimes. But I know you have to say some shit that as players, we know we shouldn't be, you know, like, "Nigga, you was a player. What are you talking about?" And I see some guys that are crossing that line saying that. But when they say it, they're rewarded and they move up.

Yes.

And to me, it's just like, you know, I'm not using ESPN. I'm using ESPN as a platform to have my face on. Spit some game, and just continue to network from there. So I realize that this media space, like I said, I'm not, obviously I'm not a player no more, but I still have a mentality of a standpoint of like, I know what it's like to be in the trenches. I know what it's like to be in the Western Conference Finals, in the Finals. I know what it's like to be in the Eastern Conference Finals. I know what it's like to go through losing streaks, winning streaks. So it always bothered me when media would speak to shit they really don't know. You know, Stephen A. Smith is the guy in our profession, but there's only so much real shit he can give you because he's never really been in the trenches. You know what I mean? So he can give you the analytics and the numbers and this, this, and that, but he can't tell you what it's like to have to shoot, you know, 2 free throws with 1 second to go to tie the game up. You know what I mean? So I've always taken the adage is, you know, although I'm not a player no more, I'm not gonna be someone in the media that's gonna sell my brothers that are playing short. And I'm not knocking nobody because to each his own, but I feel like there has been some guys that have crossed over into this media space. And, you know, although they're talented in it, they said some things sometimes I'm just like, "Bro, you were just a player not too long ago. This is crazy to hear from a former player." So that's kind of been my thing. It's like, to me, staying authentic and true, it's two things, you know, Jack and I have been able to do. And I think that's why we've been able to win in this media space. Yeah.

I think that's beautiful. And I agree 100%. You know, I see guys as well. Like I called out Kendrick Perkins on KD's Instagram Live right after we won the Olympics. And in part due to, you talk the enforcer, right? Like we just talked about the enforcer on the team. That was Perk. Like that was the only, I mean, And let's face it, like that was the only way Perk signed his huge deal. Like, don't get me wrong, Perk was playing good basketball next to KG in Boston. They won a championship, but his role on a team was to be an enforcer. And some of the things that he said, especially when we were over there at Olympics, I'm like, bro, like you act like you weren't just one of us. You know, you act like— Yeah. The things that you saying, like, come on, my man. Like, and you went to battle with Kevin Durant. Like, Kevin Durant was once a reason that you were on a roster. Like, I didn't like that. And that's why I called him out. You know, I'm not going to just dislike something and talk about it behind his back. No, I want you to know how I feel. And that's why I said, Yeah, Kendrick Perkins. I don't remember what I said verbatim, but that was why, you know? 'Cause I feel like guys do get in this space and it's not just Kendrick Perkins, by the way. That was just my example when I spoke up. But a lot of guys do it. And I agree with you 100%, they move up.

Mm-hmm.

But for me, like one of my biggest things when I first start going on Inside the NBA, I want you to leave that particular segment with a better understanding of what's actually going on on the court that fans don't really have. And I know they don't really have it because I read my tweets from time to time.

Right, right.

Or I read my Instagram comments every blue moon. I don't read 'em often 'cause there's really no upside.

Too much negativity, right?

Other than I'm bored. And I'll scroll through 'em and I know people don't know what the hell they're talking about. And so I want you to be able to watch me speak and leave that segment with a better understanding of what's actually going on as opposed to what people already truly have in their understanding, which I don't think most people—

Mm-hmm.

People think they can just watch a couple games per week and really understand the game of basketball. When I study this—

Or play it.

Yeah.

Or play it.

Yeah.

Or play it.

I study this game daily. I work on this game daily. That's other people doing their job. But yet you can't go to their job and do their job just by doing it once or twice a week. But they actually think they can play and study and talk about ours. And it's mind-boggling to me. And so because that won't change, let me help you better understand this game. And that's what I, that's one of the things I want I want people to take away from me when I'm on TV speaking on the game of basketball. I also want to be critical of players. And there's a way of being critical and the balance that I try to find. There's a way of being critical and saying what needs to be said and understanding that at the end of the day, I will always be one of you. Mm-hmm. I will always be one of the guys, a part of this brotherhood, a part of this fraternity that we say we have. We talk about this brotherhood, we talk about the fraternity, but we don't protect the brotherhood and we don't protect the fraternity. And I know I'ma always be a part of that. And because of that, I understand how it feels when people just run off crushing you. Now again, there's a way to be critical And there's a way of crushing someone. You don't just have to crush a guy.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

And I think one big moment I had on TV was, it was a whole segment. I think I had 4 clips at halftime and we were, it was a Nuggets game. And I went at Jokic's defense. I'm like, if they're gonna ever be a good team, he's the back line of the defense. He has to be good defensively. And I showed 4 clips, him not rotating over as the low man, him not moving. One, like 4 clips. And I was very critical of him. He came up to me that following year and he said, "Hey, I," like he said something along the lines like, "I saw what you said about my defense," or something. I like, you were right, or I appreciate it, or something he said like that. And he said, I've gotten better. I said, you've 100% gotten better. I've been watching you this year and you've 100% gotten better. And that was a big moment for me because—

That's dope.

This TV thing is new and I want to do it and I enjoy doing it. But I also, I gotta, these are my, these are, I work with these guys. Like I go to battle with these guys. These guys can possibly be my teammate one day.

Right.

And I have to understand that. And so I try to find that balance. And that was a big moment for me, 'cause I was extremely critical of his defense. But you right, you right. Guys get lost in that. They start completely bashing players and they lose themselves. And I don't like that.

I think it's important because you can be critical without disrespecting. And I think that's the fine line that good commentators can use or good analysts can use. You know, because like you said, at the end of the day, what we're saying, we know it's amongst our brothers and they're gonna hear it. So we're saying stuff for them to use to put in their bag or to get better with. And I think the fact that, like you said, the MVP of the league heard what you said, applied it, and got better instead of, you know, sulking about it or this dude's hatin'. I mean, I think sometimes what gets lost is social media's given so many people a voice. "Oh, Draymond's up there hatin'." Or, "Matt's up there hatin'." And then it's never that. Because it's not in us. We don't have no reason to hate. I mean, I do Kings, you know, I do halftime, or I do pregame, halftime, and postgame for the Sacramento Kings now, and it's similar, you know. I'm seeing some of these players out there, and what I'm trying to give these people is just an older, you know, I played this game for a long time, and I have a good mind. I wasn't the best, but I have a really good mind to it. So if I can give these people or younger players pieces here and there that are going to help them, You know, that's always the ultimate goal. And then one more thing, you know, Kendrick Perkins, it's funny you mentioned it, 'cause Kendrick is the homie. And when he first got on TV, he and I, like, he would hit me sometimes like, "Big bro, should I say this?" Or, "I wanna say this," or, "I wanna say that." Or when he would say stuff that's kind of like, yo, I would hit him up like, you know, 'cause I wanted to hear his thought process on why you felt like you had to say that. You know, maybe you have a reason that is amongst the we don't know is why you say that. So, you know, I think it's important to kind of have those type of conversations because you couldn't say— Mm-hmm. Now that we're done, or now that he and I are done playing, or even you're in the media space, which that one sentence you say can get blown and ripped out of proportion. So I always think it's important to have context on what people are saying. So—

No, for sure. And just one last thing on that. I think the context is important 'cause what a lot of people, you know, said outlet is going to take 8 words of a 100-word response, and that's what they're gonna post. And the reality is most people don't read, and most people don't do research.

Right.

And so you read those 8 words and you don't go back and read the full transcript, or you read those 8 words and you don't go back and watch the interview. If I take 8 words of a 100-word statement, I can make those 8 words almost look like whatever I want them to look like.

Anything. Anything. And like I said, if you know the media like we know the media, they're gonna air, they're gonna twist on the side of controversy and negativity instead of, you can, you can big, we can talk all day about Steph, how great he is, but we might say something —like you said, unless you hear the whole conversation, like, well, damn, why they hating on— that's his teammate, or that's his friend. Why are they hating on Steph? When it's not like that. Like you said, I think we live in a society where we just read headlines because there's so much news coming at us that if we read the headline— and I was even guilty of it. You know, I'd probably say like 3 or 4 years ago, because I didn't have the time, I would read the headline, damn, that's fucked up, and keep it moving, but have it in the back of my mind, so-and-so did this. But then I started realizing, like, yo, most of the time, the headline really has nothing to do with what the actual— it was maybe, like you said, 8 words out of a whole interview that can be twisted and most of the time when it twists, it's going to twist towards the negative side. So that's definitely something I think as a society we have to get better at because there's always so much information coming at us that if you're going to have an opinion on something you heard, make sure you really go back and do the research or read the article or listen to the interview before you come out and say some bullshit.

No, 100%, 100%, I agree. But yeah, man, uh, Steph Curry recently breaking Recently breaking the record, the 3-point record, 2,974 threes to break the record, which is absolutely insane. He did it. Think of Ray Allen played 1,300 games. Steph has played 789 games.

Unbelievable.

Like, it's mind-blowing how incredible of a scorer he is, how incredible of a shooter he is, the greatest shooter we've ever seen. When was the moment where you saw Steph and you like, "Oh nah, he different." And obviously you never know it's going to reach this point. What was that moment for you? Was it as a teammate or was it as an opponent?

Well, I think first it was an opponent. And then once I became a teammate, it's like, "Oh, it makes sense 'cause this motherfucker works his ass off." But I think as an opponent, I saw it first because People don't realize, like, we were— and I don't even know if you guys looked at it this way, but we were quote unquote almost the big brother between the Clipper and Warrior early battles we had. You know, you guys were a younger team. We were an older team that never, never lived up to the hype or never got over the hump because we always got in our way. So we would always go to war with your young team. And Steph and CP, there was always this. Even they may love each other, respect each other, whatever, but it was always— those were always the two names. So— Yeah. I remember, 'cause obviously CP was at the top of his game at that time. And I remember some shit you said, like, "I'm rolling with Steph 10 outta 10 times." Or you said some shit like that. I'm just like, "I love this." And then again, you took us to the 7 games a year, the Donald Sterling shit. But it was as an opponent when I played for the Clippers, because like I said, you guys were kind of like our mini little rival at the time. But just to see some of the shots he took, and no matter what our defensive approach was, He would find a way to make something happen. And obviously, a lot of that credit goes to you, you know, and Klay too, because again, I don't think that Warrior team becomes the team they are without you, because I really think you sacrificed so much. But also from a standpoint, you have such a great understanding of him and such a great understanding of Klay that you can get everyone else to understand your point of view. Also Andre. Like you and Andre, I think your guys' point of view on how we can get these two guys off because if they get off, we're gonna eat free all day. We're gonna eat very easily if our two killers are out there killing. So again, just seeing him as an opponent for a long time, but then, you know, when I got a chance to come to your guys' team at the midway point of that '17 season, it blew me away because again, with that Lob City team, man, you know, Blake, CP, Jamal, JJ, DeAndre, Lamar Odom, Eric Bledsoe, like there's no no Caron Butler, there's no fucking way we shouldn't have won a championship. But I'd never been on a team— obviously, you guys had more star power with your team, but we had a lot of stars on our team.

Absolutely.

But when I came to that team, all the egos were left outside the facility. All the legal egos were left outside of Oracle. And it was all about working and getting better. And I think what blew me away the most is you've only been on that team, so you don't know no different. But I've been on teams, once practice is over, the gym is empty.

That's crazy.

I went to this team and it's just like I had to wait to get on the court because all 8 fucking hoops, everybody's working. It was Klay on one end, it was KD and Steph on one end, it was you somewhere, it was Draymond somewhere, it was Looney and the younger dude somewhere, it was Iggy somewhere. So I just saw, so when I would have to sit sometimes 30 to 45 minutes, sometimes an hour just to get my normal, you know, stay in shape old man routine off, I would watch this shit, obviously, that everyone's doing. But then, you know, it was KD and Steph were working with Steve Nash. So I'm looking at Steve's great mind. I got a chance to play with Steve. KD is KD, Steph is Steph. So I'm looking at the off-balance, awkward body angles, one foot leaning, left hand, right hand, all the shit that they were working on. And I'm thinking like, any shot that these two guys in particular, but I'll talk about Steph, makes on the court is not luck. I can never say that Steph Curry made a lucky shot because, you know, he works on the odd angles, the awkward hand, the off the glass, the half court shots that he shoots like they're fucking layups while we're warming up.

Yeah.

Where people don't know, like, the warmup is jogging, laughing, stretching a little bit, but Steph is always shooting 3/4 court, half court shots, and he makes them like they're layups. So I think, again, to answer your question, I think I saw it originally as an opponent, but it just kind of made— it all made sense when I got to see him work day to day because he works his ass off on his craft. And, you know, as your team does. And I think what's kind of made you guys so successful is, you know, we grew up watching basketball. You grew up watching the Lakers and the Bulls and the Celtics, and all these teams always kept their core together. This new basketball, the stars, the cores are always leaving. You guys some way, and even though you went through a down point, you guys were able to keep your core together now. And that's why now when you're healthy, when Steph is healthy, Klay is on the verge of getting healthy, Iggy is back, your guys' core is so strong. Plus Coach Kerr, now you added young talent around you guys. So it's always— I've always tell people when I speak on ESPN or when I'm speaking, I'm like, "Just watch this Warrior team once they get healthy because they've been able to keep their core together." And obviously Steph is the star and he gets all the credit, as he should. But again, I think that's— that core unit is the reason why you guys are in championship contention again and will be in championship contention for the next 2, 3, 4 years as you guys run with, you know, with a leader and a scorer like Steph. But again, I wanna give you your kudos too, bro, because people don't understand, again, playing against you and then playing with you, I see the shit you have to do on a day-to-day basis. And I see the way you conduct yourself on and off the court. And I really felt like that that franchise has embodied your hard work, blue collar mentality, and have made it into a dynasty. And again, you guys are on the verge of, I feel like you guys are on the verge of something special again. And I think before we, I just wanna say, I think Jordan Poole is a cold motherfucker, man.

He is.

Ooh wee, tell him I don't know him, but I like, you know, like he is someone who has been able to take advantage of unfortunately Klay being hurt and coming around. Basketball minds like yourself and everyone else who's there. So I'm happy for you. Obviously I know this interview was for me, but I just, 'cause we hadn't got a chance to talk, I just wanted to make sure you guys knew that, man, I'm still rooting for you guys. I love what you guys have been able to do, man. And still, man, over here cheering for y'all.

Nah, I appreciate it, bro. I definitely appreciate it. You know, it's, being in this position, you have to have a lot of self-gratitude because it's not always gonna be seen. People don't know. The stuff that go on behind the scenes. People don't, you don't get credit for screening. You don't get, really get credit for defense. Like, you know, a lot of the stuff you just don't get credit for. So you have to have a huge appreciation for self, a huge amount of self-gratitude, but also a huge appreciation from the guys you do it with as well. I.E. Steph getting us— Rolexes, you know, after he broke the record, which is like, I've been working on like trying to figure out along with Hazel, like what gift should I get him for him breaking the record? And I'm still gonna get him a gift, but I want it to be special. So I wanna figure out the right thing, but I'm like, what gift am I gonna get him? What gift am I gonna get him? And I finally said to Hazel, I'm like, I don't wanna rush it 'cause I don't want it to be the wrong gift. I want it to be meaningful. So I didn't get it yet. And then last night I'm getting a gift, you know? And it's like, you know, the appreciation from your peers, from your counterparts, from the guys you go to battle with also keeps it going as well. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Well, I think, yeah. I mean, to me, that's what I, 'cause I never got, you know, I had a chance to get a couple of deals that kind of fell through. So I really was underpaid my whole entire career and it made me mad. And sometimes I get pissed off or I would move teams, but at the same time, I think what the key says, you're respected by your peers. Maybe fuck the media, fuck the fans sometimes, or the haters sometimes, because like I said, they don't really know the game. But when you're respected by your opponents and by your teammates, that's kind of the— in a position— again, you've been an All-Star defensive player, Olympian, and all that kind of stuff. But to me, you still don't get the props you deserve, and you're at peace with that, which is great. But when you hear it from me or guys you play against, or when you're around you're on guys with the Olympic team, like they fuck with you. And real basketball minds know that kind of stuff. And sometimes, like you said, when you're not the star and there are very few super superstars, you don't necessarily get that. So again, understanding who you are as a person, applauding yourself every once in a while because you need it, but then also hearing it from your opponents or your counterparts. And then like you said, Steph showing you his appreciation when he broke the record by handing you a rose. And I seen KD's tweet too, 'cause I saw he was third in assists. He's like, "Yo, send a cent." Send the rolly.

Send the rolly. Hey, you know what's crazy about that? KD has 153 assists in 3 years. Like, that's insane. I didn't realize that.

Yeah, the crazy stat. But that means you look at, but you look at you, like, I mean, you're almost at 500. That's a lot of buckets, you know what I mean? And to even see Klay on that list, it's just like, Klay don't pass nobody but the motherfucking basket, you know what I mean? But it's just dope. It just kind of shows It takes a village, you know, as great as Steph is and he will hands down be the greatest shooter. I think he's gonna put this record so far outta reach that no one will ever sniff it. I think someone might score 100 points before they break Steph's 3-point shooting record. But again, I think he landed in a great situation, you know, and you guys drafted really well. And again, you've been able to keep the core of this team together that really understands him. 'Cause I remember when I got to the team, you know, always look the screen down. Just always look to screen down. Find Klay or find, you know, so to buy into that and understand that mentality and guys that come in and do it, it's such a beautiful thing because I don't think people understand how hard he works to get one shot off. That motherfucker can run back and forth 8 different times, touch the ball 3 times, but end up getting a corner 3 at the very end because the offense is so patient. It has an understanding. So again, I know we could talk all day, but I just like, you guys have something special, man. I hope you guys you guys understand it in the moment, which I know you guys do. And best of luck, man, staying healthy and chasing another ring this year.

My brother, no, I definitely appreciate it. And on the KD thing, I think he might get a Rolex. I don't know, we'll see. He got outta here on us. But no, I think it definitely speaks to, it definitely speaks to the group. That's here, that you've been a part of, all the guys that's come through here and just bought into what we're selling, you know? And that's greatness, that's getting to the next shot, that's getting to the best shot, making it good to great. That's what it's always been.

At the end of the day, I think you can overall say you guys are getting, you guys are family and you're a team. And when you're able to keep that family together, you're always better, you're always stronger as a unit than you are individually, man. Again, continue to access the albums, man.

Thanks, brother. As we get outta here, who is your guest that you, your dream guest that you would want on All the Smoke? I saw you speak on this a couple times where you talked about Tupac, but who, if you gotta pick one guest for All the Smoke that y'all have not had, who is your dream guest?

LeBron.

That's fire.

Yeah, I've seen him a couple times.

Real legend.

Yeah, he's giving me, "Okamama, I'm ready." I've talked to his team a couple times. So, you know, obviously there's people like Jay-Z and Draymond Green and all these other guys outside of basketball that I would love to be able to talk to. But, you know, having Kobe's last interview, rest in peace to our brother, was really special. The array of people we've had on the show have been special. But, you know, I just think, like you said, the great, you know, LeBron is one of the greatest depending on who you talk to.

Would love to have Bron on the Draymond Green show too, but we'll get there.

That's your homie though. So you're gonna have a better insight on that than me. But yeah, that's my one dream guest.

I respect that. Dream guest of mine as well. Not my only one, but definitely a dream guest of mine.

Who's your dream guest?

My dream guest is President Obama. I would love to have President Obama as a basketball fan. As first Black president, as everything that he means to the culture, to the world, not just us as Black people, like to the world, one of the better presidents we've had, the way he carried himself, the way he carries himself, just everything he stands for.

Mm-hmm.

Is President Obama for me.

You'll get 'em.

Yes, sir. But I appreciate you coming on, man. Keeping— we've been rolling with these great wing defenders. First we had Metta, then we had Stack, now my big bro, Matt Barnes. Matt, I appreciate you, brother. Thank you for coming on.

Good for having me, bro. Good luck the rest of the way. Let's catch up soon.

Yes, sir. Thank you.