Tim Hardaway Sr. on Heat suspending Jimmy Butler, LeBron vs. MJ & Top 5 Warriors | Draymond & Baron

What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show with my brother, my dog, BD. What's happening?

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Today's guest, we got, created one of the coldest moves in basketball. And I'll give it the nickname after. I'll let y'all know the nickname that at least in my, like it has a nickname, but in my area where I grew up at, it has a specific nickname. So I'll get into the nickname after I announce this. But this guy, he's a Hall of Famer, 5-time NBA All-Star, 5-time All-NBA member, Olympic gold medalist. His number 10 jersey is retired in Miami. Mm-hmm. He is famous for the UTEP Two-Step, which in my parts, we just call it the Timmy. You hit somebody with the Timmy, that's what it is. There ain't no UTEP Two-Step. You hit 'em with the Timmy. That's what we called it. Father of NBA vet Tim Hardaway Jr., Chicago's own, none other, the Tim Hardaway Sr. What's happening, OG?

Nothing much, man. Nothing much. You know, I always listen to y'all's show and listen to both of you guys. I always wanted to come on and just be a guest on here because y'all, y'all be saying the realest stuff. Y'all always real, you know. And, um, um, and y'all, you know, it— that's what people need to hear. People don't need to hear all this fabrication. That's what I like about you guys, man. I, I've been wanting to come on here for a long time, and I'm glad I'm able to make it tonight, man.

We appreciate you, OG the Legend. You know, I remember I got a chance to tell you I used to wear the Tim Hardaways with the X. I wore a size 10, but the shoes was like 8.5s. And I busted them for 2 years, you know. You know, the U-Tap, 2-Step, just to me, you was the dude that I patterned my game after. You was the dude, you was that dog.

Yeah.

That when I watched you play, I was like, oh yeah, like this is the fabric I need to come to the game with, you know what I mean? And then even get a chance to play against you, you know what I mean? Like you brought that dog outta me, you know what I mean? And you know, yeah. And in honor of you, bro, I have officially cut my hair and went bald-headed. Oh, is that right?

Yes, sir. Oh, wow.

Look, I'm getting back to the essence, you know what I mean?

Look, we— Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I saw him about a couple of weeks ago. He was bald a couple of weeks ago.

I saw him a couple of weeks ago.

He wasn't bald a few days ago.

Oh, okay, okay.

This man is full bald trying to make a comeback.

Let me tell you a story about Baron. So Baron, it was Baron's first year with the Charlotte Hornets.

Yeah.

And him and Wesley, what's his name?

David Wesley.

David Wesley.

David Wesley. I used to play with him on the game.

He said, "I was going at Baron." And David said, "Man, why you going at my rookie like this?" I said, "Man, I'm gonna tell you this. I probably got another maybe 4 or 5 more years left. He got another probably 13, 14 years." I'm gonna give it to him while I got it. Because when it's at my time, he's definitely going to embarrass me. Oh, yeah. And that's what he did in that playoff series. He embarrassed me. I couldn't even stick him. I was slow-footed. And I was like, damn. Is it that bad? Is it that bad? You know? When he went out, I was like, ooh wee. I was like, oh man, you know? I got, wow, you know? But I mean, but you know, they was ready for us. They was ready for us. They was ready for us.

Oh man.

Charlotte came and bust our butt.

That was my first playoff start, right? And man, you gotta think, all I've been doing since I got taped, and a VCR and watch basketball. I've been watching you. So hey, Tim Hardaway.

Well, you gave it to me. You gave it to me. Like I gave it to you your rookie. You gave it to me after that.

My rookie year, you killed me. I was so nervous 'cause I knew you cross half court, you like to point and run the floppy and pull up. Yeah, so I was like, I'm not letting him get in no range. I don't care if he limping, none of this shit. I'm about to stick to this dude like glue. And that was my job. I was like, man, I was so nervous, bro, because I was like, yo, this is my dude. And then you pop me with an elbow and that just woke me up. I was like, okay, okay, this is real. Like, he don't like me. I got, you know, I gotta get right.

It was nothing personal. It was just business.

Yeah, it was. That's all it was. Yeah, it was.

It was just business.

That's all it was. Yeah, it was.

Man, we had our team awareness meeting today and Dirk Minniefield was there. Oh, Dirk. Dirk was asking me, Dirk said, "What's wrong with the game today?" And it's funny to hear you say he hit you with the elbow because I was telling Dirk, Dirk was like, "What's wrong? Like what you got for me?" I said, "I'm gonna tell you." one of the things that is really wrong and it's really bad. And so I told Dirk, I said, everybody complain about the league being soft.

Mm-hmm.

And too many foul calls and all, et cetera. I said, Dirk, the problem is there's no hierarchy in the league anymore.

Right.

I said, so for instance, you hitting BD with the elbow, like when Porzingis came into the league and different young guys like that when I was on my way up and then like, and you know, in my space as an all-star, I wanna like show them guys and try to instill a little fear in those guys just because I would say, I know in a, like, it's gonna come a time where in a few years that dude gonna be unstoppable. And if I can instill a little bit of fear in him now, Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That'll help me down the line. Mm-hmm. So that was always my mindset. And I told Dirk today, I said, Dirk, the problem is, there's no hierarchy. No one has to earn anything in this league anymore. So you hitting BD with the elbow is what we all went through, right? Somebody hit you with an elbow.

Yep.

And you hit BD with the elbow.

No question.

Then BD hit somebody else with the elbow. You know what I'm saying? And you just gotta deal with it, right? And that's, and so getting a call in the NBA, if you was a rookie, you couldn't touch nobody. And So you had to play the cleanest defense ever. Because if you touch somebody, bro, if you even remotely close, they calling a foul on you. And by the way, if they touch you, good luck. A referee would actually tell you at that time like—

The ref told me to get up.

You did, they get a foul.

Yeah, like get up, go play.

And so in our league today, I told Dirk, I said, Dirk, the problem is, Not everybody get calls. I said, so if you're a rookie and you drive and I foul you, they giving you that foul. I said, and the problem with that is all of us, what we had to go through to get a foul call or to be able to foul, it was treacherous. And you, you had to go through the wringer to get that. Nowadays, I was telling him, I said, Dirk, there was a play in the Laker game. I was telling him about when Dalton Konect called me to be,. And now I called him a P and I got a tech, right? And I said, I said, Dirk, the problem is in that game, I said to the referee, there was a 50-50 call and I actually had all ball. And he gave Draymond Green a foul. And I said, yo, if it's any, if it's remotely close to 50-50, I get the benefit of the doubt. He don't get the benefit of the doubt. I said, not actually hit ball, but if you thought it was 50-50, I get the benefit of the doubt. He said, no, that ain't how it work.

That is so.

It do work like that. And you just ain't been here long enough to know it work like that. Right. And I said all of that to say, just to hear you say, yo, you hit me with that elbow, it woke me up. We can't do that anymore today.

Right, no.

And people wonder what's wrong with the game. There's no hierarchy in this game. And I just wanna hear y'all thoughts on that.

Well, you know what? You absolutely right. When I was rookie, I stepped in front of Charles Barkley and Jake O'Donnell, not Jake O'Donnell, I forget his name, Earl, Earl, I forget his name, but I stepped in front of Barkley and I just went like this and passed, he traveled. And he said, "Foul on you, Tim." And I said— I went to him and Chris Mullin said, "Tim, Tim, come here." He said, "Come here." He said, "Hey man, leave him alone." Darryl Garrison. Okay, Darryl Garrison. He said, "Tim, leave him alone. Leave him alone." He said, "Don't say nothing to him." I said, "Okay." And I just played the game and I left it alone. And like 2 or 3 games, we was on the road trip, we had Darryl Garrison again and everything. Darryl Garrison say, "I like you." I said, "Why?" He said, "'Cause you listen. You listen to Chris." Some rookies would be like, "Oh no, this and that and that." Yeah. He said, "You listen to Chris and I like you." But he said, "I still'll pop you though. I still'll kick your ass out, but just understand that you listen to Chris and you a good guy. You understand." what's going on. And I said, yeah, I said, yeah, I'm a rookie and I understand that I got to be in my place and I'm going to stay in my place.

I love that, man.

That's real.

You know, and referees back then, referees tell you that.

They have personality. That's what I was gonna say. To me, the referees, like, you got the power, right? And so today's referees, they're just repping the game, so they just call it a lot of times what they see. They not creating that energy and a flow, you know what I mean? To let people, you know, like certain games, you know, Tim, you go into certain games, you see certain refs, it's like, oh, they gonna let us play tonight. You know what I mean? Certain dudes, they gonna have an early whistle. But like today is really like, it's an inconsistent whistle.

Yeah.

Because you're reffing every play and you're not a part of the fabric of the game. So there's no drama, right? There's no drama because, you know, ain't no mistakes made. So like, even when you watching the game, it's like, it's hard to make a lot of mistakes when the goal is to shoot 3-pointers, you know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly.

And like, to shoot 43. So you can't really make no mistake or you know, try and cross somebody up, catch somebody on the iso and mess up because you don't have to, you know what I mean? And the refs don't either. Go ahead.

But I'm gonna tell you this too. A lot of these young guys, they don't pay attention to the referees. They don't know the referees. They don't understand the referees. They think that the referee is supposed to adjust to them.

Yeah.

No, you got to adjust to the referees. You know Like you said, Ben, you know which referees you're gonna call a quick whistle, right? You know which referees don't like you.

Yep.

You know, you know, you know, they don't like you and they— and it's not going to call a foul for you. And you know, leave him alone no matter what he does. You got to leave him alone because it's not going to get no better for you. And, and these guys, I see these guys today as I'm watching the game They just don't adjust to the referees that don't like them. And you could tell the ones that don't like them because they don't call nothing for them. And they trying to steady go at him, steady go at him, steady go at him. The ref is like, I'm not calling nothing for you. Somebody else may call it, but I'm not going to call it. And they steady going to him talking to him, he don't like you, leave him alone.

Yeah.

He's not going to call nothing for you. Don't go over there and say, hey, how you doing? How your family doing. If you see him out, don't buy him nothing. Just leave him alone 'cause he don't like you.

Yeah, he ain't messing with you. Like, you know what I mean? But it used to be a referee would tell you like, "Hey, leave me alone, I don't like you." You know what I mean?

They will tell you that.

Like, "Hey, come on, if you come over here and talk to me, I'm gonna give you a tech." And you like, "Man, uh-uh-uh." He ain't messing with that. Hey, you ain't his type of player.

Joey Crawford used to be, Joey Crawford used to tell you that in a heartbeat. Don't come over here. Don't come over here. And then you steady walking, yo, you want to get kicked out?

Hey, Joey Crawford kicked me out of playoff game for clapping, bro. Hey, the Dallas series, Dre, I got kicked out. I think it was like game 2 or game 5, and all I was doing was going, come on, guys.

Come on, Melly.

Melly go, hey, stop clapping. I'm like, what you mean stop clapping, man? Come on, guys. Man, he said, boop, you're out of here.

What?

All right.

Yeah.

No play. Yeah.

For no game.

No explanation.

I love Joe.

You gone.

One of my favorite referees ever.

Yeah, he was one of my favorite referees 'cause he did not play. Just let him call the game.

Yeah.

And it's gonna even out. It's gonna even out if you just let him call the game. It's gonna even out. But if you don't let him call the game, you on him. Oh, we— oh, and he takes it personal. Yeah, he takes it to the next game he sees. But I love him. I love him because I know if he left him alone, it was gonna be a fair game.

Yep.

It was gonna be fair and he was gonna call it right. He was gonna call what he saw. It wasn't gonna be like no phantom calls. He gonna call what he see.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's what I liked about him.

That's a fact. And if he don't see it, he'll tell you, "I ain't see that. I'm not calling anything I don't see, Draymond." Yeah, yeah, "I didn't see it, my bad.

I was looking at this, I was looking at that play, my bad." Yeah, but that's a part of the game.

That's a part of the education. I just always felt like everybody played a role in your basketball development. So the referee, the relationship, the not relationship, understanding the refs, your coach, and the opponent, you know what I mean? And so I think a lot of times, you know, when you look at the young dudes and like not respecting the hierarchy, is because they ain't got no research. They coming in the game like they the first ones to do it, you know what I mean? And so that's the problem.

Yeah.

That's the problem. Like you ain't coming in the league like, yo, I wanna be in this league because so-and-so in this, you know what I mean?

It's like everyone was saying— And you don't have no vet. And you don't have no vet on the end of the bench. Like at least one or two vets. When we came in, we had one or two vets. They knew they could still play, but they was like, all right, if they was called upon, they go in there and play. But they was in there to mentor everybody else. Yo man, Nelly don't like this. Nelly like this. You know, this how you gonna get him to love you. Just go out there and play and do the right play and do the right thing and this and that and everything will work out. Just go out there and play your hardest. Nelly gonna like this. You know, don't be hanging out. Don't have him see you drinking a beer after the game. Nothing like that, especially as a rookie. You know, a rookie, you know, take your butt inside and be in your room and have a beer in your room or something like that. You know, but don't be out here in a hallway you know, in a restaurant or something, having a beer and stuff like that. So he, you know, the vet to tell you exactly what needs to be done. And, you know, and you just got to adhere to it.

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I tell everybody all the time, when I first came to the Warriors, they would do this for years at Oracle. I think they stopped doing it when we got over here. But for years at Oracle, they would do this, what's your favorite Warrior moment? And all the fans, their favorite Warrior moment, their favorite moment as a Warrior, memories as a Warrior would be either We Believe, Baron Davis dunk on Andru Karolinko, or Ron TMC. And so, you know, for me coming here, like that's what everybody would, Like that's what everybody loved. That's what everybody talked about. And so that's all I would hear about. For you, Run TMC, you, Mitch, Mully, what was the best thing on and off the court from those Run TMC years that y'all had together?

Camaraderie. Camaraderie, friendship, wanting to do better. As a team, always coming out an example. Chris Mullin always set the bar. I mean, nobody could touch that bar. He came out, worked on his game an hour before practice, an hour after practice, in the weight room, an hour before the game. He still go out there ready to go, ready to play. 82 games. Everybody set their bar for that. And you know what? It was when y'all was winning championship, the team was together.

That's true.

We knew that we wasn't no better than nobody else on the team. We knew that we needed a team to win. So we all was a team and we treated each other like a team. I didn't get no preferential treatment and Chris or Mitch didn't. We just came out there and played and we loved playing. The first time I went there and signed, Chris was like, "What you want to do?" I said, "Man, I want to play, man. I haven't played in 5 days, man. I want to play. I'm fiending to play." We went and played and it was me, Chris, Mitch wasn't there, Rod Higgins, Draymond Green and some other guys, man, we played for 3 hours. We just played for 3 hours. And I was on Chris' team and I just wanted to get the feel of Chris. I just wanted to see where he liked the ball, how he liked the ball, running up and down the court, just passing him, doing my thing and doing this and that. And that's how I got acclimated with Chris, knowing how he wanted the ball, where he wanted the ball, and Mitch too. You know, you got to know where they want it, in the pocket. Yeah. You know, lobs, post-ups, all that type of stuff. And it's about communication, like you all. Communication, communication. A lot of these guys don't communicate with one another. That's why they not as good as, you know, the champions, you know, the finalists, getting to the ships.

That's right.

So you gotta communicate to one another. And that's what we did, man. We just love playing with one another, man. And we love hanging out with each other, man. Go to the movies, go eat dinner together, hang out as a team together. It was all about team to us, man. And that's what made us real good with Run TMC and with the community, man. Went out in the community and done stuff in the community, man. We love the community. We went here, went to schools, went to centers, we went to parks. Chris Mullin, you might be driving down the street and Chris Mullin outside playing ball. That's the way it was, man. That's the way it was.

That's fun.

You know, but yeah, man, that's why we blossom and that's why we was so good with each other.

Nah, we love Run TMC. I always say y'all the pioneers also of like when hip hop and the NBA happened, you know? So, A lot of shoutouts to Run TMC. And for you, you know, you are one of my top 5 warriors of all time. I want to ask you the question, who— what is your top 5, or who are your top 5 warriors of all time?

Well, you know, Chris Mullin, Mitch Richmond, of course.

Yeah.

You know, uh, you know, it was a lot of guys that came through there that played and left after 1 or 2 years and went somewhere else and played well, Sleepy Floyd. Ooh, Sleepy Floyd.

Sleepy was killer.

A lot of people, yeah, Sleepy was cold, man. Of course, Rick Barry. Of course, Rick Barry.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you gotta pick, you gotta, man, come on, man. —If you don't put Rick Barry up there. Oh man, Rick Barry was cold, man. Rick Barry was cold. A lot of people don't know Rick Barry, man. Rick Barry was a cold motherfucker. And he was nasty with it too. He was nasty with it too, man. He could put that ball in the basket.

Uh-huh.

Just like Chris Mullin. He could put that ball in the basket, man. You know? And that's, what's that, that's 4. And I gotta give, you know, you can say Wilt, you could say my man, he passed away too, I forget, oh boy.

Nate Thurmond. Nate Thurmond.

Nate Thurmond. Nate Thurmond. Woo!

He was serious, though.

He was serious. You know what? When Nate Thurmond walked in the room, everybody was like— that was his presence. Yeah, they straightened up. Al Adams. Al Adams, he walked in the room.

Straightened up.

That was his presence. And he's like, "Huh?" Y'all stop it. Man, you're a legend, man. You're a legend. You're a pioneer. You was a pioneer. God rest all they souls. But man, I put in about 8 of 'em. That's the 5 I would do, man. But man, I mean, it was some cold people coming outta the Warriors.

Yeah, Warriors birth legends. Warriors birth legends, Baron.

I'm just talking about my era and before my era.

Yeah, yeah.

You know? I'm not talking about now. You know, it's you, Baron, it's Klay, Draymond, and— Curry, you know, uh, uh, you know, and those guys. I mean, Richards, Richardson. Yeah, yeah. I mean, come on, man. Come on, man. I mean, it's a lot. It was a lot of betrayal. Sprewell, you know, a lot, you know. I mean, it's a lot, it's a lot of people that came through there, man, that was cold-blooded. That was cold-blooded for sure.

Now that's a fact. That's, uh, that's a tough list, man. I don't think people realize how deep the Warriors history go back. You know, I think a lot of people get caught obviously and we—

The Bay Area do though. The Bay Area does.

For sure.

Yeah, they do.

The Bay support they own like no other.

Best fans in the world.

Absolutely. In the world. The way the Bay support they own.

In the world.

Next to the Dodger fans though. Look at you, Stockton. All right.

You could have left that where it was at. Nobody need that. Nobody, nobody need that here.

My fault. I'm not even a Cub fan. Cubby.

Go Yankees.

Let's go.

Yeah, pull up, pull up. You not, you not, you, you not on it. The, the, the, the, uh, Tigers, Detroit Tigers.

No, no. He ain't even a Detroit Lions fan. He a Cowboys fan.

I'm not a Detroit Lions fan. Cowboys, that's disgusting.

You not, you not a Lions fan? From, from here?

No, I'm not. I like to see the Lions win though. Um, I definitely like to see the Lions win, but— and I root for the Lions, but I'm not a Lions fan. I'll tell you why I'm not a Lions fan or a Tigers fan.

Oh, the reason being, they didn't invite him to the game when he was a kid.

Check this out, check this out. I wasn't a— I wasn't a Detroit Pistons fan until I got really close with the Dumars. And then like naturally, like, come on, like this man taking us to games, like opening his house.

It's all about taking you to games, bro.

Yeah, no, I'm just saying like you take, well, for a kid from Saginaw, you right. I ain't had access to games like that.

Right.

You know, but like just showing us a life that I never even imagined was possible for me. You know what I'm saying? You could not support that. But I'll tell you why I wasn't a fan of the Detroit teams growing up is because growing up playing basketball, now as I've grown older, I cheer for 'em like I'm from there. Like, and so I'm always gonna wanna see them win. But just the way that I am to my core growing up as a kid, I never would allow myself to root for the Detroit teams because when we were growing up and playing AAU basketball, Saginaw Pride, we go to these tournaments and the Detroit, the kids from Detroit would treat us like, like we might as well be from Louisiana. Like if you not from Detroit, you like, they don't care about you being from the state of Michigan. You not from Detroit, get out our face. You know what I'm saying? And so for me, I have pride. I have a lot of pride in Saginaw and trying to put a city like that as a young kid thinking like, man, I wanna put this place on the map. Yeah. And then they're treating you like, "Yo, you ain't from Detroit, get out my face." Like, and so I'm like, "Well, I'm not rooting for anything in Detroit because y'all gonna treat us like that. But then I'm supposed to be like, 'Oh, that's my hometown team.' Like, but you treat me like I'm an outcast and I might as well be from Timbuktu." And so as a kid and just having that crazy chip on my shoulder, at that time I was like, "Forget everything, Detroit." Yeah. Like, I don't care for Detroit at all.

That's a damn shame.

Y'all treat us like that. And you know, but as I've grown older and just being away from home, I'll always rep because, you know, everybody, like, I'm gonna rep the crib over anything.

Right, of course.

But just, you know what I'm saying? But the world know I'm from Saginaw now. You know what I'm saying? And so it is what it is. But I had a, a crazy chip towards anything Detroit just because of the way the people would treat us, you know, coming from a small city like Saginaw.

So Draymond, I'm gonna tell you a story. I'm gonna tell you a story. So I'm with the Miami Heat, I'm a scout for the Miami Heat. I come and see you, you know, I was always at the Big Ten games, especially, you know, 'cause of Tim and all that. I'm writing you up, I'm like, This is Miami Heat culture right here. I say Draymond Green is Miami Heat culture. We need to draft him. We need to draft him. Dude, he gonna come in, he knows how to play, he gonna play his role, he gonna play defense, he gonna give everybody confidence. This dude can play the game of basketball.

Yeah.

And Pat was like, I don't want him. I said, "Why?" He never gave me a reason. So every time you came to Miami to go to State Warriors and y'all beat us there, me and Pat look at each other. He said, he looked at me, he said, "You better not say that." You know he's not saying it loud. You better not. He kept looking at me. I was like, I told you so! Right? And he be like— Yeah. I said if we would've had him and just his presence in the game and knowing the game, I'm not saying it would have been like this but we could have won 3 in a row. With LeBron, I'm talking about with LeBron, D-Wade, and Chris Bosh. I feel comfortable with you being on that team, coming in and doing what you supposed to do, 'cause you was the type of Heat player that we should have. That they needed. That we needed.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. You know what's crazy, OG, is Miami was one of the teams that I thought would be really high on me during the draft, and You know, I'm sliding in the draft.

Yeah. And I was in that green room. I was in the green room. I was like—

It, you know, it really baffled me to see the Miami Heat draft Arnett Moultrie because I'm like, draft Arnett Moultrie? Like, this dude had all type of character red flags when we was coming out in the draft. And you know, he was, the upside of him as a player was insane, but he had all type of character issue red flags. And I'm like, they gonna draft this guy, but they talk about all of the character stuff and how you gotta be a high character guy to play in Miami and leave me sitting right here. And I would watch those teams, those Miami teams with Bron and be like, yeah, and D-Wade and Bosh and be like, I would've fit right in there. Like I could've brought exactly what that team needed.

Yeah.

On a low salary because I was low.

Energy.

I would've been a low pick in the first round.

Energy.

I could've brought what that team needed. I agree. I felt that way. And to see Arnett Moultrie get drafted there and have character issues, I was immediately like, oh, they not about what they talk, what they say they're about. They say they're about this character and that and heat guys. They not about what they say they about.

Yeah.

My mindset after when I saw who y'all drafted and didn't draft me, I was like, they not about what they say they about.

What is Heat Culture?

No, no, no, no, no. Heat Culture, I'm gonna tell you this. I mean, we are about that. Heat Culture is what you bring, Draymond. You go out there, you practice, you understand what it's about. I see a lot of people— I love Pat because pays attention to detail, got you ready to play, made you understood what you need to do, made you understood how to get better. All right. I came in there knowing that I could still play, knowing what I can do and everything. So both of us needed each other. He needed me to come and run his team. He needed a point guard. To come in and run his team the way it needs to be ran, like he wanted to be ran. That's the way I— that's how I came in, and that's what I did. Okay. Um, um, you know, work ethic, work ethic. Don't bitch about, you know, this. Don't bitch about that. Just come in, do your job, and when it's time for you to play, come in and play. And that's what Heat Culture is. Heat Culture is about team. Heat Culture is about leaving all that bullshit out and everybody in this playing for the Heat. We're not playing for the name on that fucking back. We playing for the Heat and we know what we need to do and we coming in and doing it no matter what. And that's what Heat Culture is. A lot of people want to do their own stuff and that's not Heat Culture. You're not gonna do your own shit. You're not gonna do your own shit. Yeah. You gonna do what you supposed to do with the team. He never wavered. Nobody was special on that team. You knew who was the guy, you knew who was this, you knew who was that. Everybody knew that. But it was about the team and we always played as a team no matter what.

So, so, so is that, is that what's affecting the Heat right now with, with Jimmy Butler? Is, is, is they're essentially saying that Jimmy wasn't, being a part of Heat culture anymore.

Yeah, that— but, but that's Pat's fault to me, all right? You let him fly on his own private jet to different places and he'll meet the team for shootaround. You let that stuff get out of hand. You let Jimmy Butler come in and say this and that, you know, this and that. You let it get out of hand. And then when Jimmy Butler, you know, Now I'm gonna tell you this, he deserves his money. He deserves his money. Everybody deserves their money, all right? But you can't play 60% of the games and I'm in the play-in game and then we gotta work just as hard to get to where we need to get to. I need to not be in a play-in game. I need to be 60. If he played 75, 73—

You got 4 seed. The 4 seed.

Right. Easy, easy. They the 4 seed. They got a week off. They rested. But now they in the playing game. You know, now, you know, enough was enough. Enough was enough. And I say this, Pat, you gotta understand, Pat is in the driver's seat. Okay? We don't have to trade you. We don't have to trade, and you still under contract. I understand you want to get traded, but you still got to go out there and not jeopardize games. You shooting a one-legged shot in the corner. When have you seen Jimmy Butler shoot a one-legged shot in the corner? Okay, another thing, when you know, and you see him pass the ball when he's supposed to come off a pick and roll, he passed it to the defender. And I say this, and I should have worded it differently. People think that Pat sent in a 10-page letter or film. I'm saying that if you want to question what Pat did and suspended him, Pat has a 10-page letter or a 10-page whatever he going to have and film to send to you and show you what he's talking about and why he suspended him, okay? And you go from there. Pat is always ready. Pat is always ready. That's why he didn't do nothing with that dang Lil Tray. You know, I'm not giving up Bam. I'm not giving up Hero. I am not giving them young boys up no matter what, okay? Hey, it got a benefit It gotta benefit the Heat, and that's what they don't understand. If it don't benefit the Heat, Pat is not gonna do it. And Jimmy needs to just go out there and play, and his agent need to just be cool, and everybody needs to just go out there and play. And if you want to trade, it will happen, but you gotta go out there and obey your contract because you still under contract. That's what I think.

He playing tonight.

Jimmy is back playing tonight. Yeah, he's back playing tonight. He playing tonight. So say he do go out there and play and he go out there and play well, he look like Jimmy that was taking the Miami Heat to the NBA Finals. Is there a possibility that they could mend this or is it over?

What Jimmy said to Pat in his face, he wants to get traded, he wants to get outta there. I think it's over. I don't think there's no patching up because he told him in his face what he wants. He wants to be traded. But Pat is like, I don't want Bradley Beal. He came, they came out and said that. I don't want Bradley Beal. I don't want to take on that contract. So he going to have to find something that benefits him. Yeah. And the Miami Heat, and him and Mickey are on the same page. Now, if it gets out of hand, then they can sit him down and say, look, just stay at home, we'll pay you. And I don't believe, me personally, I don't believe he going to opt out of $52 million. I don't— That's a lot of money. That's a lot of bread. A lot of dough. I triple dog dare you to opt out of $52 million.

That's a lot of dough, man.

That's a lot of dough.

That's a lot of dough. You know, and the problem is if you opt out of the 52, it's hard for another team to just come and outright pay you $52 million. They gotta have a max contract, a supermax slot. It's hard to find that, man. People don't be understanding these rules.

And the intricacy of the collective bargaining. You know what I'm saying?

Exactly. Like, it's hard for a team to just come and be like, oh yeah, we gonna give you $40 million. Like, it'd be hard to create that type of cap space, especially with this new second apron. I don't think people understand that. It's tough. Even with the trade, like everybody's saying like, yo, you know, he gonna get traded. It's like—

He's hard to trade.

It's hard to trade a guy that make $52 million a year. Like, you gotta give up. For instance, if you look at our roster, say you wanna trade Say you wanna trade for Jimmy with the least, with the least amount of players that you could on our roster.

That's 4.

That means either you gotta trade Jimmy straight up for Steph.

Yep.

Or you have to trade Jimmy for me and Wiggs. And it's like, right? So I don't think you're going to do that. So then now you start looking at—

What else?

Oh, you gotta trade like 5 guys.

To match that money.

One guy. Exactly. Then you start getting into, well, you need a third team because now you gotta clear roster. It's hard to trade. And then also another thing is people don't understand in this league when you start talking trades, it's great players don't get traded.

Right.

Right? Like that just don't happen. Like great players in their prime, you don't get traded.

You know that? Yeah, I mean, it's gonna be difficult, man. It's gonna be difficult.

It's difficult.

Yeah, it's difficult. You know, like I said, I wish everybody get their money. Wish everybody get their money and be happy, but it's gonna be hard. It's going to be hard.

Well, it's hard to find the team that needs you to get over the hump don't have the cap space. That's it. So yeah, if that's true, if they were to make a move for you, then they gotta debunk everything that they build up towards to fit you in the puzzle. And so, right, I don't, I don't see it happening either. Uh, I do, I mean, I'd love to see him get his money, but you know, it's a good— Miami got a good squad, right? Him and Pat, They ain't gonna really see eye to eye. Something gonna have to go, but you know, he gonna have to play his way back into who he is to get his value back.

First and foremost. And you letting your teammates down, man. You letting your teammates down, man.

Right.

That your teammates, they need you. They want you. They want you to play. They want you to be there. It's been a lot of disgruntled people that was upset with management, a la Michael Jordan, but he made it work.

Yeah.

You know, he made it work. You know, it's plain and simple. You know, but you know—

Kobe was upset with management in LA.

Yeah, Kobe. He made it work.

Worked it out.

He made it work. You know, so yeah, I mean, you can make it work. It's up to Jimmy. I still think it could work, man. I still think it could work if, you know, your team— the team, I think, you know, Hero, Bam, and those guys have to come to Jimmy and be like, yo, Jimmy, man, we need you, man. Just, just come out here and just, um, play and let the chips fall where they gonna fall. Because if, if, if you do what you say you capable of doing, and if you play—

Yeah, I got a chance.

You got a chance. I'm gonna tell you this, Boston is scared of Jimmy. They don't want to see Jimmy play. They scared of Jimmy.

They don't like to see Jimmy coming.

Milwaukee is scared of Jimmy.

That's a fact, they don't like to see him coming either.

They see Jimmy coming. I watch the games all the time. He be out there abusing folks. Yeah, they scared of his defense, they scared of his offense, they scared him making, you know, making plays. Uh, they just scared of him. So I mean, if he plays and if he right, everything is cool with them. Yeah. And you got a young hero that's healthy now, that's healthy, that's looking at itself. He's been all started.

Yeah, he ballin'. It could be an all-star this year.

Yeah, you know, it could be. So I mean, they got some pieces and they, you know, they 8, 9. And if Jimmy comes and plays, they go, if they win 6 in a row, they right there 5, 4.

Yeah.

Easy.

And that's exactly where you wanna be. Before, we wanna talk to you just about being an NBA father. But before we do, and just speaking of the Heat years, I'm sorry to do this, but do you remember when BD dunked on you?

Yeah, everybody gets dumped on. I tell everybody, everybody gets dumped on. Yeah, I remember that.

Shot blockers get dunked on, not point guards. Shot blockers get dunked on.

I went for it. I thought I could get it, you know. I jumped, I thought I could jump a little bit higher, you know. You, you know, you in the game, baby. You in the game, you know. Hey, hey. Yeah, yeah.

Draymond Green.

It happens, man. It happens. You know, it happens. You know, that was the elbow. He remembered the elbow.

Yeah, that part. He got you back.

I thought you slipped.

He walked away like, ah, I was gonna get him back for that elbow.

I thought he slipped. I thought he slipped. No, you didn't catch me slipping. You did catch me slipping. I thought I could get it. You know, hey. My leaps wasn't as high as yours.

Oh, I'm crying.

Happens to the best of us. Man, good. I got some bad ones too. I got some real bad ones. Draymond Green dunked on me so bad I pushed him down.

I tell everybody, everybody gonna get dunked on. Everybody gonna shoot an air ball. Everybody gonna shoot a brick. Everybody gonna turn the ball over. And that's basketball. Everybody gonna get shook. Everybody gonna get shook. That's a fact.

But the thing is, people, nowadays are afraid of that. So you don't— Yes. You don't have, you know, moments where it's, you know, a changing of the guards, right? To that hierarchy. Like, damn, this dude been bullying me. We ain't got past the playoffs 'cause I gotta overcome Draymond and whatever he think he got psychologically against me. That's always been the pecking order and the pedigree of the NBA. And nowadays, guys are running away from the real thing. Like, you don't see superstars challenging each other, right? They guarding the other dude on the team, right? So it— they running from the charge, you know? Are they— they coming in to take a charge? 7-foot— I used to hate when big dudes take charges. I used to cuss big dudes out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What you taking a charge for? You know what I mean?

Yeah. I'm going to tell you a guy that don't get a lot of recognition that was a bad motherfucker, Kevin Johnson.

Oh my God.

All right? Me and Kevin Johnson, when we played against each other, I guarantee you neither one of us got a full night's sleep because we knew what was gonna go down the next day. We was gonna go out there and we stuck each other. I'm not, I'm not, you switch off on Dan. No, I'm getting over picks. I'm staying in front of him. I'm gonna try to stay in front of him. All right, I'm gonna try not to get crossed over, you know, left and right. I'm trying not to get dunked on.

Right.

'Cause he will dunk on you, you know. You know, I know he couldn't make threes. You know, he started making threes at the end of his career and stuff like that. But I'm gonna tell you this, man, that was a bad motherfucker. That was a bad motherfucker. A lot of people don't know how bad Kevin Johnson was. That motherfucker, man, he was tough. He was fucking tough. Gary Payton. Gary Payton. Shit, we used to go at each other. Shit, Rod Strickland.

Yeah.

He don't get enough credit.

Yeah.

Man, we— Terry Porter. Yes. And some [MASKED] in the West, man.

That's some dogs.

Yeah, some dogs. Straight dogs, man. A lot of people don't understand that, and we had to come with it every night. Every [MASKED] night.

Yeah.

You know, you, you know, now you probably take day off. Well, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm just going— it's gonna be a cruise here, it's gonna be a cruise there. [MASKED] Not in the West. Not back then.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Right.

Every night it was—

The only night off was really like the Clippers.

Back then. Well, you know, I'm not gonna do that to my man Mark Jackson.

No, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark.

'Cause you know, Mark was there when I was with the Warriors, so he was there.

Okay.

You know?

They was competitive.

I'm not gonna do that to Mark.

They was competitive. They just couldn't finish. Yeah, nobody was there. They had no crowd to get them over there, over the edge.

No, no, no, they did. And they was playing at USC. They was playing at USC. I'm gonna tell you something, I'm gonna tell you something. USC back then, they court was so bad, man. So you had that, you didn't only have to have a slipknot, you had to have a wet towel.

A wet towel.

Yeah, a wet towel. So you get some grip on there. Every time motherfuckers used to run past and get they foot on a wet towel so they can get some grip. And another thing, you know how you, like now, if you pass the ball, Boston Celtics and Washington Wizards, back then the Wizards, but when you throw the ball and you know, if you throw it, a bounce pass, that motherfucker skid. Like a rock. It's here. So you gotta know how to bounce back. And I'm gonna tell you this, I played in the Boston Garden one, the first, I was rookie playing Boston Garden. So Nelly said, yo, dribble the ball. We used to go to where it was bad spots in Boston Garden, just dribble the ball, dribble the ball. And it was a dead spot right up under the rim. It was like 2 or 3 dead spots right up under the rim. D. Brown was sticking me and he followed me right to that fucking dead spot. And I was dribbling the ball and the ball stayed down. I thought I was still dribbling and he was laying the ball up. Melly called the timeout and he said, didn't we go over that this morning? I said, yeah. I said, but I wasn't— he said, why wasn't you thinking? You— he was following you right there. I told you that. That's why we was dribbling the ball so you know the dead spot. Yeah, I said, okay, my bad. He said, I'm tired of hearing my fucking bad. I said, okay, what you want me to say? I'm not gonna do it no more. I said, I'm not gonna do it no more. And I didn't do it no more. But Nelly was mad because, you know, he played at the— with Boston, won championships, and he had all these people there and all this and all that. He cussed me out so bad when I hit that dead spot. I was like, wow, I won't go that— I won't go that way no more.

Hey, Nelly was spontaneous, man. He'd be your best friend, then he'd cuss you out.

He'd cuss you out. And you know, Nelly was always trying to change the rules. That's why the rules have changed now.

Yeah.

You know, the rules— I'm gonna tell you why the rules have changed. Nelly knew Dirk Nowitzki couldn't stick nobody, so he got the rules changed so they could play zone. If you think about it, if you think about it, that he always tried to get the rules changed. Hey, he learned.

We used to practice how to finesse the rules, the out-of-bounds play where you could have two dudes out of bounds on the sideline. Oh yeah, yeah. He finessed every rule that we could to get our advantage.

Every day we went over there, we used to go over Y'all think we could do this? Uh, I don't know. Let's try it. Let's try it. Let's try it one time. If it work, we'll try it again. But let's try it one time. We go over there and shoot around. We tried it and shoot around. And you know, he said, you know what? We gonna try that after timeout. We gonna try it. And teams will be like—

What are y'all doing? What the fuck y'all doing?

Right. What are y'all doing?

Nelly the finesser.

Hey, Draymond, he'll make you walk by the dude in front of, like, you taking the ball out of bounds, and I'll be walking towards you, and I act like somebody pushed me out of bounds and run behind you.

Nelly said, every time you go to the basket, just yell, they give you a call. And I was like, I'm from Chicago, I don't yell. We just go to the basket, we take the hit. You know, and that's why, that's why I got to yelling and stuff. Oh wow, wow. Oh, that shit works.

Yeah, it does.

That works.

Yeah, it really had all the tricks. Jesus, Jesus.

Speaking, speaking to all the guys you was just talking about, you gotta, we had Penny on. Penny gave a top 5 point guard, a top, Penny gave a top 5, yeah, point guard list. You got your top 5 PG list?

Man, shoot. I'm gonna tell you this, man. It's hard to just pick 5. You know, I'm gonna tell you this, a person that just, a guy that just passed away yesterday that nobody knows about, the Wizard.

The Wizard.

Gus Williams.

The Wizard.

Man, I'm gonna tell you this.

One man passed bright. Hey, one man found a break.

You talking about Dennis Johnson, you talking about Nate the Skate Archibald. It's a lot of motherfuckers out there, man, that can hoop. I mean, that can really hoop, man. But you know, grew up watching this guy, Isaiah Thomas. Yeah. Grew up watching him, patterning my game after him. Isaiah Thomas, that's number one. I'm gonna say this, what is Allen Iverson? Was he a 2, was he a 1?

He was a 2.

2. Right. See, that's the thing. That's the thing. So do we rate him as a point guard? Do we rate him as an off guard? Two. Yeah, he's a two. Okay. So, you know, definitely Isaiah Magic.

Magic Isaiah.

Nope.

Hey, right. Right?

That motherfucker, goddamn it. God, the shit that he used to do and all, man, it was ridiculous at 6'9". Right, right. Who else is it? Myself.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Steph, no question. Steph. Yeah.

No question.

That's 4? Yeah, that's 4. And I'm gonna say this, was Dwyane Wade a 1 or a 2? 2.

2. He came in as the one though.

He came in as the one for sure. Yes, he did. But he, like, after that, 2. Okay. Who else? Got 4.

Stockton.

Stockton. You know, I gotta go with my man Nate the Skate.

Yeah.

I gotta go with Skate.

Okay, I like that.

I gotta go with Skate. Skate was, man,— to 3 years in a row? To average? I mean, to lead the league in scoring and assists for 3 years in a row? It's crazy! Skate man!

You spoke about being from Chicago. We all heard about the Chicago runs. Uh, I had the opportunity to go to a couple of them in my day, uh, which is after the heyday of him. But Bron recently was talking the other day about getting on the court with MJ being there.

I was there.

And he was unguardable. And I know you were there.

I was there.

And so I just wanna know, was he really as unguardable as he say he was the other day in the clip that he was talking about being unguardable in that pickup game?

You talking about Mike unguardable?

No, was Bron as unguardable as he— Bron said he was unguardable that day he got out there.

Yes. Yes. Fly.

I was listening to Maverick. He was talking about LeBron being at there. We wanted to see what he had and what he could do. He didn't do it all the time, 'cause he had broke his wrist and it was like a week after he took the cast off. He came in, he was playing, and he came down on a fast break and we thought he was gonna pass. The motherfucker took off from the free throw line. He just took off. He missed, he missed, but the motherfucker just said, "Boom!" I mean, just like that. We thought he was gonna pass. It was a 3-on-2. We thought he was gonna pass, and it was like in slow motion, the motherfucker just took off. And I was like, damn. And he just missed it. The ball slipped out of his hand. He missed. But I said, you know, that's incredible. That's incredible. I mean, for a 16, 17-year-old kid to come in and do some shit like that. And he was making shots, playing defense, passing the ball. You could feel his presence.

Yeah.

You could feel his presence. You knew that he was going to be that shit in the NBA. You knew that at that particular—

That's what's up.

That's what's up.

Wow, so for everybody out there who say Bron be lying about all these stories he told, you just heard it from one OG. And you know the OG right here, he ain't hold nobody, no smoke.

No, no, no, I'm not holding nobody, yeah. No, I'm gonna keep it real.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, he was real. He was real in that '16, '17, that thing was '17, '18, whatever. He was real, yeah, yes.

Hey Tim, talk about Isaiah Thomas being your favorite player. We got a clip where you hit him with the UTEP two-step. I need to know, one, that moment, but also the origination of the UTEP two-step. How did that come about?

Well, it came about 'cause everybody be like, you know, we had gangs in Chicago and I didn't like going out because that's when people started shooting up places and backyards and all that type of stuff and gangs, you know, motherfuckers following you in cars and, you know, all this time it was crazy. It was wild. So I'm still in high school and so I just used to work on my game. I had an unfinished basement downstairs. We didn't have shit, we didn't have computers. We had 3 channels on the TV.

Yeah.

Yeah, we had 3 channels on the TV and it got stale. So I used to go downstairs and I had 2 beams and I just used to work on, you know, Behind the back dribbles, spin moves, in and out moves, crossovers, playing like I'm— it was like an 8-foot ceiling. I used to make layups coming down, doing some stuff and just working on my game downstairs for about an hour. And it was snowing, you know, it was cold outside. You didn't go outside eating. Right. So I'm just out there working on my— just working on ball handling. So that's where my ball handling came in. And I used to go outside during the summer and play against the guys outside. And we used to have this on the sidewalk. It was like if you could steal the ball from a person, it was like 4 people. And I used to dribble between 4 or 5 people, hold this guy up. And if you go on the grass, that's out of bounds.

That's out of bounds.

You gotta get the ball up.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's out of bounds. I used to control motherfuckers, push motherfuckers off, and just do all that type of stuff. And I used to go back and forth for about 3 or 4 times. And then I'd like, I'd get it stolen just so, you know, game go on and shit like that.

So you have some friends.

Yeah, I have some friends that I could, you know, work on my shit.

Yeah, yeah. I call them test dummies.

Right.

Yeah.

I love it. Yeah. So I went to go see Isaiah. My coach took me out. I was in 6th grade, no, 7th grade. Coach took me out of school. He said, we went to the amphitheater. He said, I want you to check out number 11. I said, all right, cool. St. Joe. So I'm checking him out. I'm like, wow, that motherfucker cold in my mind and stuff. He said, what you think? I said, he cold-blooded. He's nice. And he said, you play like him. I said, get the fuck out of here. I said, oh, you know what? My bad. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My bad. I'm sorry. I said, "No, I don't play like him." He said, "I'm gonna tell you something. You play just like him. You got the confidence like him. You control the team like him. You make shots like him. You do all the things that he's doing right now, just in 7th grade." And at that particular time when he told me that, I started watching Isaiah, patterning my game. When he went to Indiana, I steady watched him, steady watched him. And just patterning my game after he came back for summer league, watched him, knew they scheduled, knew when he was gonna play. I'm there an hour ahead of time. I'm in the front row watching him play.

Wow.

And so he kept in touch with me. Somebody told him about me and we was at a high school summer league game and we playing and they said, "Yeah, we got a surprise for y'all. Whoever make the Final Four, "The teams, they come in and we got a special guest for you." And somebody told me, and I told my team, I said, "I don't know what y'all going to do, but I'm going to be here every game and I'm making the Final Four. I'm making the Final Four." And Isaiah came in there and talked. And after he talked, everybody's about to leave. He said, "Hey, Tim Hardaway, let me talk to you." You want to talk to me? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He talked to me, said, yeah, somebody told me that you've been patterning your game after me. I've been checking you out. I've been keeping tabs on you and stuff like that. And I was just blown away. He just said, keep doing what you're doing. Go to school, get your education. I don't know if you're going to make it, nothing like that. But he said, just use basketball to get your education. "But you playing well, man, and keep up the good work and keep your confidence and keep playing." Said, "Okay." Boom. And so we came to Detroit my rookie year. He came to pick me up at the hotel and went to his house, had pregame meal. And on the drive back to the hotel, I'm like, "How am I going to tell this man I appreciate you?" taking me to your house and feed me, but I'm still going to bust your ass.

Really?

And so before I got it out, he said, now, you know, because, you know, took you out for pregame meal to the house and everything and talked to you, I hope you don't take it easy. I was like, you know what? I've been trying to figure out how I was going to tell you this. Yeah, I'm not going to take it easy. He said, That's what I want to hear. And we played, we beat them here too in Detroit. And yeah, man, I always wanted to play against him, man. And it's like the highlight of your whole career when you play against your idol. Yes, that dude. That's how it was, bro. Man, I know how you feel, Baron, but hey, man, it was It was like, wow. I mean, it was one of those moments. It was one of those moments.

Absolutely. Idols become rivals. Man, we can't thank you enough, OG. That was incredible just hearing the stories. You're always welcome on here. You ever need somebody somewhere to pop your shit, you can always come here.

Tell the truth.

I appreciate it, man. I appreciate it. I love hearing y'all. Y'all keep it as real as it can get. I love hearing y'all, watching y'all. And both of y'all, both of y'all, they need to listen to you all more. People be like, "Yeah, Draymond, he need to be quiet, this and that, blah, blah, blah, this and that." But I'm like, he's telling the truth though.

Yeah.

What y'all don't get? I said, Baron telling the truth. I mean, what? I don't understand. Y'all want people to tell the truth, but y'all mad that they telling the truth. Yeah. I don't understand it. But y'all keep doing what y'all doing, man, and keep inspiring these kids. They only listen to me so much. Dray, they listen to you because you out there doing it. Baron, they listen to you because you just removed, and so they can relate to you. And plus you got an AAU team and you out there doing your thing with them. So y'all keep inspiring these kids, man. And I tell these kids, with the NIL money now, what is the rush of going to the NBA? Yeah.

Ain't one. No, get all you can.

Why don't you work on your game to perfection so when you come in, you don't have to play in the G League?

Yep, exactly.

You come in, you could be ready right away.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, listen, a lot of these kids don't want to listen to their college coach. No. College coach, that's what we did. We listened to our coaches. We respect our coaches. We listen to our coaches. That's why we made it. That's why— that's why it was easy for us.

Yes.

Because, because we listened and we understood what they were saying. They think that you hating on me It's criticism. You don't like me and this and that. That's why they transfer. Stay there, take adversity, look it in the eye and say you gonna get better. That's what y'all doing with these kids today. And I commend y'all for that.

Appreciate you, OG. It's amazing.

Much love, OG. Thank you.

I love you.

Much love. And don't let Baron Davis tell you about 2 weeks ago.

Oh man. Oh, hey. Hey, it's coming out on tape. They did us dirty in the commercial.

I know. Oh, did they? You saw it already?

Nah, I can just imagine. We was breaking. Wow. Wow.

Wow. Draymond Green. It wasn't nice. It wasn't nice.

It wasn't cool.

It wasn't cool. Yes, sir. We appreciate you, OG. I'll be looking for that.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. See y'all at All-Star.

Yes, sir.

Stay healthy, Dray.

Yes, sir.

Yep.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I'll see you at All-Star.

Be well.

No doubt.