Tracy McGrady on facing Kobe, ring culture & life in Vince Carter's shadow | The Draymond Green Show

Man, obviously we all grow up hoping to reach the holy grail of sports, of whatever that particular sport is that you're playing. For me, it's basketball. For others, it may be baseball, it may be hockey, football, whatever it is. But in all of those sports, one thing that they all for sure have in common is they have a Hall of Fame. And I am honored today To welcome you, the great Tracy McGrady, a guy who I grew up as a young kid watching come into the league, destroy the league, razzle dazzle, the dunks, the jump shots. We all know the 13 points in 33 seconds and the list goes on and on. But none of that stuff matters when it comes to the ultimate title. Which is Hall of Famer Tracy McGrady. T-Mac, man, thank you for coming on the show. I am honored to have you, my brother.

It's a pleasure, bro. When I got the notification that you wanted me on, it was no hesitation, man. I'm a fan. I appreciate what you brought to the game, your passion, your love for it. And I'm excited to be here.

Thank you. A fan of me?

Oh yeah. Every team needs a Draymond, bro. Every team needs you. I appreciate that. You the heartbeat, you the leader, you know, the voice of that team. And as you see, you're Miss right now. You're solely Miss.

I appreciate it, man.

Get your ass healthy and get back out there, 'cause I got y'all winning the chip this year.

Hey, that's the plan. We definitely working on it. No, I appreciate it. Like I said, as a young kid growing up and watching you play the game, for me growing up, I caught some of Michael Jordan. I was 6, 7, and 8 when he won his last 3 championships. So I remember that. But growing up, and I always wonder why it have to be this way. And so I'm asking you this question as well. But growing up, it's like T-Mac and Kobe, you know, like you're T-Mac, it's Kobe. And that's what you got, you know, the great shooting guards in our league. And you kind of had to pick a side, which I don't really like, but I'm asking you, why do you feel like it's that way? Not only in our sports, but in sports in general as like, oh man, I'm a Kobe fan or I'm a T-Mac fan as if you can't love both. 'Cause they're both great players.

Yeah, that's why, you know, I think the older I get, I don't get caught up in the GOAT conversation anymore. Because I think, you know, the guys that are in that conversation are GOATs of their eras.

Absolutely.

And it's not just one guy, you know what I'm saying? If you wanna crown a guy, that's fine. But I don't like to put guys, you know, up against each other because they're, is their greatness in their own lane of how they became great. You know what I'm saying? I don't know, we just love competition. We love to put, you know, whether it's two figures, two teams, or individuals up against each other. That's what we do in our nation or in this world.

No, absolutely. And I definitely understand that. But, you know, taking this back to the beginning, we have a young kid growing up in Auburndale, Florida. And not many people know yet who this young kid is, but you know, I've read the story and watched all the interviews throughout the way. And you said at one point you went from ranked 175 to number 1 in the country. Can you tell me about that journey and how that happened for you?

Yeah, so grew up in Central Florida. I mean, we just go through it. So I grew up in Central Florida and you know, with my mom, my grandmother, and then I had an older cousin that really, that got me involved in sports. So I don't know if you know this, baseball is my first love, Draymond. That like, basketball is actually my third sport.

Really?

It was baseball. Yeah, it was baseball. I started baseball at the age of 5, and then I started football at the age of 8 years old. I didn't play basketball until I was like 9, 10 years old, right?

Wow.

Yeah, so that was my sport. Every year it was baseball, football, and then, I'd go out to the park and play with my cousins 'cause I have a big family and we'll play basketball, but that wasn't my thing. So I was just naturally gifted, bro, in all sports. I think God just dropped me off and was like, "Bro, I'm giving you all the talent. Whichever one you wanna play, it's your choice to pick. Just make sure you exhaust the greatness out of that." Mm-hmm. So high school in Florida, I averaged, what, 25 and 12. In my area, a lot of people knew who I was, but outside of that, no recognition at all. And even across the state of Florida, a lot of people didn't know who I was. This guy that had some ties with Adidas came down. I was playing spring football at the time, my junior year. And he came and got me off the football field. He was like, "Yo, I want you to be part of the family, you know, with Adidas." But he was like, "You gotta stop playing football. We can, you know, hook you up with this gear. I want you to go to the Adidas camp." And I'm like, "What?" You don't say, I'm excited. I get free gear?

What?

Man, I stopped playing football. So get ready to go to this camp and I'm hearing about Lamar Odom. It's like, who the hell is this kid Lamar Odom? They saying he's 6'10", he's a point guard. That just blew me away that, you know, there's a kid here that's 6'10" and have point guard skills. I'm like, "Damn, I wanna see him." Mm-hmm. 'Cause I've never seen anything like this. This was the first that I'll be able to witness, you know, this type of talent. So he was the first guy that I faced.

Wow.

And for me to even get in that camp though, was like pulling strings. Sonny Vaccaro got me in this camp and they gave me the jersey number 175. Like I was the last one to enter this camp. And it took a lot for me to get in there 'cause nobody knew who I was. But yeah, man, I went through that camp, you know, it's just opportunity, bro. It's like, what you gonna do with it? And I ran with it and didn't stop.

That's incredible. I think the kids of today, they don't know about ABCD Camp, man.

No, no.

And it's crazy because I always wanted to get invited to ABCD Camp and I never received the invite. So I'm still waiting to be 175.

Actually, I think they bringing it back too.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

I think Draymond Green got it. Oh, that's great. That's great. And so you then, you go on from there and you consider going to Kentucky?

Bruh, listen. So I went and took a couple visits, right? And I think Kentucky was my last one that I took. And Derrick Anderson was my host that played in the league. I went up to Kentucky, man, and— saw how them kids, them dudes was living, I was like, "Oh my God, the players' lounge." They driving fully loaded Eddie Bauers. You know, in Kentucky it's already—

Eddie Bauers.

You know, it's already basketball heaven in Kentucky. So I'm like, "Man." But yeah, I was initially going to Kentucky until Adidas came to the table with that big deal.

That's incredible. You know what's funny about that is, My junior year of high school, my high school coach played for Tubby Smith when Tubby was coaching at Tulsa back in the day.

Yeah.

So my junior year of high school, Tubby was still at Kentucky. We went, we drove down for an unofficial visit and we went to the game. They were actually, ironically, they were playing Florida. And this is Joe Kim Noah, Torian Green, Corey Brewer. Like this Florida, Florida.

Yeah.

When I tell, we walked into the arena and College GameDay was there. We walked into the arena and we're standing next to each other. And in order to hear each other talk, this is just walking into the arena. The game's not, it's an hour before the game. It's so loud. We're yelling in each other ear, like yelling to the top of our lungs in each other ears.

Yes.

I couldn't believe it. We watched the game, stayed overnight, got a chance to see the Wildcat Lounge and all that stuff. I committed the next day. My mom had no idea I committed. Now I knew— So they got you too. Absolutely. I knew I was doing something wrong because when I got home, you know, I just committed to Kentucky. Like that was a big deal. When I got home, I never said a word to my mom. Like, "Ma, I committed to Kentucky." I didn't say a word. My mom is like, before Instagram and all this stuff, my mom is the person like on them blogs that's just like subject after subject going crazy. And my mom, My mom saw on the blog that I had committed to Kentucky. My mom didn't talk to me for a week and a half.

Yeah.

Then finally after that week and a half, she went down to Kentucky herself and she went to visit and she came back. She hadn't spoke to me, hadn't said a word to me. I mean, we passing each other like these ships in the night in the house. And she came back and she said, Don't ever do anything else like that again. I understand why you committed there. I understand.

Listen, man, it was very impressive, you know, being on that campus and witnessing that as a 17-year-old kid, I was blown away. I was like, I can't see anything greater than this. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, This is where I'm going. This is where I'm going. And until Adidas came to the table, like that's where I was going. But that's my adopted school. You know, I still suck it these days, watch 'em. But yeah, man, I missed out on that.

Do you have any regrets of not going to school as opposed to going straight to the league?

You know what? I used to get that question a lot when I was playing. 'Cause all my teammates would be, especially during March Madness, they representing their alma maters. And I think that's really the only time that I felt it. You know what I'm saying? 'Cause I felt left out like, damn, I don't really have no dog in this fight. And I just see all the love and the trash talking that's going back and forth, especially when you got two guys from the same alma mater and they playing in the tournament. It's wild shit talk, you know what I'm saying?

Yes.

I miss out on that 'cause I love that. But that's really the only time that I felt it. Other than that, nah. I mean, it's, you know, I wasn't a school type dude anyway, sitting in fucking classrooms and writing papers. Man, fuck that, man. You got $12 million? Are you gonna sit here in these classrooms, waking up early in the morning, attending class? Nah, let me go get these $12 million and compete against the greatest in the world.

I respect that. I always, talk shit to Jermaine O'Neal. That's my brother. You know, absolutely. Who's one of my vets. I played with J-O my second year in the league. Took me under his wing a lot like Jared Jack, my first year, took me under his wing, showed me the way. We still tight like this to this day. But I used to always talk junk to J-O around that time. Like, "Yeah, J-O, them Spartan dogs coming." And he like, "Ah." This J-O, "Ah, fuck that." "Yo, I went to university cash. I came and got this money. I went to university cash." I'm like, "J-O, guess what? We all getting money now." And I got a chance to experience college.

Yeah.

But speaking of J-O, before we move into your career, y'all have started an agency. Tell us more about that. 'Cause I think it's an incredible thing. And two, obviously, GOATs that's done their thing in this league and now leading the way for this younger talent?

Yeah, man. I think, you know, when you be, what, 24, 25 years in this game, you learn a lot, you see a lot, and you hear a lot of what's going on. Both of us have, you know, AAU programs. So it's a lot of information that comes out of that. And during the pandemic really just gave us the opportunity to do something together that's very impactful for the culture.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I was doing ESPN, so I was back and forth traveling from Houston to LA to do The Jump with Rachel. And then when the pandemic hit, it just gave me an opportunity to just, you know, sit down and kind of recalibrate my thinking on trying to venture off and do something else. And I was still in contact with J-O and, I was like, "Man, we need to put together an agency and really save a lot of these guys out here of the misinformation that they're getting." Mm-hmm. And that's what we doing, man. We started it. We're doing well. We got some kids on NIL deals that are in college. We're talking to some really, really elite players. And it's about just really Being, you know, we got the mentorship between, you know, Draymond and I, who we played the game at a high level, understand the business. And then we got some guys on our team from your era, Silicon Valley, that are part of the ownership that, you know, is advising us and the kids and the opportunities that can bring. So just collaborating together with those guys and what we're doing, man, it'd be very impactful for these kids. Yeah. Coming outta college and getting their journey started in the NBA.

No, that's beautiful. So yeah, I mean, going from high school, college, and now to your NBA career, 9th pick in the 1997 draft. And I know for me, I got drafted to obviously Golden State and I had never left the state of Michigan. I spent the first 22 years, I mean, obviously, you know, AAU and all of that stuff, but I spent the first 22 years of my life in the state of Michigan. And when I came out here to California, I was homesick as hell. I felt like I was—

Wow.

You could have dropped me in Europe for all I knew. Like I had no idea what was going on out here. I was homesick. Everybody I knew was still in Michigan. So they 3 hours ahead. By 8:00 PM, everybody's asleep. I got nobody to talk to. So then I'm going to sleep at 9:00 PM my rookie year. And you got drafted to the Toronto Raptors, which is a totally different country. And basketball then wasn't what it is today in Toronto.

Dead.

Tell me about that journey and how was that getting drafted to Toronto as an 18-year-old, you now going to a totally different country to play basketball?

Now, first of all, you left the cold weather to go to some nice weather. Michigan's a damn— you know, San Francisco. I left Florida to go to Toronto.

Ooh.

So you can imagine, like, I wasn't used to that, boy. Driving in the snow, sliding on like the slushy streets. Like, bro, I was outta territory. You know what I'm saying? And you know, the legal age was 19 years old. I still wasn't legal. It was a culture shock. You know what I'm saying? From all angles. Like, it was a hockey town. Didn't really, you know, get a lot of love from basketball fans. You could do something spectacular. We played in the SkyDome, which was a baseball stadium where the Astros play. So you got, you know, 40-some thousand, you know, seats in there. And it's only probably 7,000 people in there. So you can only imagine.

Wow.

You can only imagine, you know, you do something spectacular and it's like crickets. They're like, "What the hell did we just see? We don't know what that is. We never seen that before." So, but you know, it was tough, man. I had an old school type mind coach in Darrell Walker who was very challenging. And we really didn't click. You know what I'm saying? And he made it tough for me. I mean, to be 18 years old and get criticized from your head coach that you'll be out of the league in 3 years.

Yeah.

You can only imagine. You know, how damaging that could be for a kid entering this league. And you know, back then it was some grown men still in this league, right?

You know.

Absolutely. But you know, I had some great veteran players that, you know, really kept me level-headed and really helped me through that process. First year, like I said, it was challenging. And I think Isaiah Thomas, you know, who was the president at that time, really saw how, you know, damaged I think I was the first half of the season, and he had to make a change. So we got rid of that coach, and our assistant coach Butch Carter took over, who gave me structure, right?

Yeah.

There was some structure now. Kid, you gotta do this, you gotta do that if you want to get, you know, playing time. And I understood that, and that's what I worked towards. Before, I didn't have any structure. It was like, okay, what? It's like, what am I supposed to do? I don't know what to do. You know what I'm saying? It was left for me to figure out. But when I got structured and knew what my assignment was, then that's when, you know, the turn happened. My second year, we drafted Vince Carter, which is my cousin, and that helped with the transition, you know. Him coming in right away, had a phenomenal rookie year.

Mm-hmm.

So I was in that shadow, like, pfft. "Thank God, take a little bit of this pressure off me." You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. Coming outta high school, take some of this pressure off me. So he had a phenomenal rookie season, was the Rookie of the Year. I'm talking about the shit that he was doing was just incredible. So it was bittersweet. I mean, I was taking a backseat to my cousin, but also I was learning along that process from somebody that was, really going into stardom. You know what I'm saying?

Absolutely.

And his first few years of the game. So when my opportunity came to be in that role, I knew how to handle it. But yeah, it's just, it's good. It's always good to have real OGs around you. I had Dell Curry, you know.

Absolutely.

I had Antonio Davis, Kevin Willis, Charles Oakley, Dee Brown, Muggsy Bogues. Like we had some vets that kept our ass in line and showed us the way. You know what I mean? And that was so impactful for my career moving forward. And I can't leave this out. My boy, Doug Christie, man, I used to play Doug Christie, bro, every day, one-on-one.

Really?

Every single day after practice, bro, let's get it, one-on-one, one-on-one.

That's interesting.

Yeah, yeah. And that's how, you know, I really gained confidence and really perfected my one-on-one game and my skillset.

That's interesting, 'cause for a lot of these kids around, they don't know Doug Christie was a hell of a defender.

Hell of a defender. Relentless.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Yes. Doug. So y'all brought Vince in. By the way, I know those after practices, you and Vince, who was more athletic, man, you or Vince at that time?

Vince. I'm not fucking with him.

Not at all. Go ahead.

He was incredible. Before we realized we were cousins, I played on the junior team Florida and he was on the big boys team Florida. So I used to play before him. And the shit that I used to see him do in high school, like damn near touching the top of the backboard, looking down and dropping the ball in the basket. Like it was incredible. Incredible. A lot of people like Vince in high school, bro, I think he broke his right, his wrist. In the state finals. He broke his wrist and dropped 35 with the left hand.

What?

Yeah, man. Vince's basketball, bro, he's one of the most talented dudes ever. Ever.

Yeah, I agree with that. I've always told people like, and just from what I can see from afar, like, yo, Vince Carter has to be one of the most talented players to ever step foot in the game.

Ever.

Ever. Yeah, it's incredible. But so now you look at today's NBA, right? You coming out 6'8". Do you think today's NBA, you would've thrived even more than you did when you played? That's a great question. Because I think so. I think so because you just look at the game, right? Like the way you play, all the hand checking y'all have to do. See, a lot of guys get mad when the guys from before us say, "Oh man, the league's soft today," or they could— the reality is the league is soft today.

It is. I mean, let's call a spade a spade. It is. The rules are a lot different, you know what I'm saying? And come on, man. Guys shooting 3-pointers or shooting shots now and you land on somebody's foot, it's a flagrant foul. Like, how the hell you contest shots without, you know what I'm saying? The rules make the game soft, not the players, it's the rules. Yeah, absolutely.

That's what we're talking about.

I think people misinformed that, you know, when we say the league is soft, we're talking about the players. It's the rule changes that we're talking about. So yes, will I thrive? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you gotta think, in our era, bro, some of the scores was 75 to fucking 76.

Yeah.

Finals or in the '60s, right? And I have 30 points. I have 35 points of that. So—

Yeah, I mean—

There's no question, bro. You can't impede my progress. And it's not like I was just a guy that, you know, scored with the ball in my hands. No, I was catch and shoot as well. I did everything. You know what I mean? So yes, I will definitely thrive in today's game at a high level.

I agree, Juan. Is there a player in today's game that you see that remind yourself of you?

I mean, you got PG, KD, those two I could think of that really reminds me of myself. KD is just a different breed though. The way he shoot the freaking ball, man, he's just, it's just unbelievable talent. But PG as well, you know, those guys being able to score, at multiple levels.

Yeah. No, I like PG game a lot. Now I like that comparison. Just the way y'all both handled the ball, shoot the ball, get to the cup, athletic, or put you in the rim. However you want it, you getting that.

Yeah.

Nah, I definitely respect that. But just going back some in your playing career. So you had those years with the Raptors and then you move on to Orlando. And I love to hear your perspective, but from my perspective as a young kid watching, I felt like, like you said, you went to the Raptors and then Vince came and you were in the shadow. And all of a sudden to me, like it really took me to like really brush up on my history and like go back and ask to realize that, hey, T-Mac is actually older. Well, not older, but you were older than Vince as far as Coming into the league. Yeah. But when Vince came in, it was like you was in the background and playing the shadow in Toronto. Because for me watching all of those years, I felt like your career really took off when you went to Orlando. Like that's when Tracy McGrady became T-Mac, when you went to Orlando. Can you walk me through that?

Yeah, so it had nothing to really do with Vince being, me being in Vince's shadow. My third year, And Toronto is really when I turned the corner and really showed that, you know, all right, this kid is really, really talented. 'Cause I averaged like 15 points for that season. I was like the third or fourth option for that team. And then my first playoff game against the Knicks, I had like 26 points. Like I balled out. Had a really good series against a tough New York Knicks team.

Mm-hmm.

But it was so much internal problems that was going on that people didn't know about. And then also, I mean, Toronto was competing against Orlando, which I'm from that area.

Absolutely.

You know what I mean? So it had nothing to do with Vince. This is just, dog, I wanna go back home. 'Cause I remember when I was a kid, I used to drive by the arena and I used to tell my mom, "I'm gonna be playing in there one day." Right? So this opportunity had presented itself. And G Hill was there in Orlando. I thought we was gonna get Tim Duncan, but even just myself and G Hill, you know, it was like, damn, we gonna be all right. I got this, this is a perfect move.

Yeah.

And then we know what happened with G Hill. You know, he had the ankle problems the year before he joined, you know, Orlando and Detroit. He broke his ankle. It was like, "Here are the keys, young fella. Let's see what you got. Drive us. We don't know where we going, but you got the keys and you about to drive us. Let's see what you got." You know, and I put a lot of work in that first year I was with Orlando, off-season, like to really push myself to exhaustion to, you know, improve on every aspect of my game.

Yeah.

I surprised myself, Dray. I'm not even gonna lie. I think I averaged probably 26 that year. Like it was the biggest point differential from, you know, one year to the next. And it was just incredible what I was able to do. And that was just a manifestation of the work that I put in that off-season. And then, you know, the maturity and the confidence grew to another level to where I just felt, you know, extra comfortable out on the basketball court.

Yeah, and you won Most Improved that year, right?

Won Most Improved that year, yep.

All-NBA Second Team. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was a lot of stuff thrown at me that year. And I was, and that's when, you know, it's, I don't know if there was a game or what it was that really had me like, okay, I belong. I belong here and this is what it's gonna be. You know, I think competing against Kobe, you know, around that time and holding my own because Kobe is, you know, in his, if it was my 4th year, he's in his 5th year and he's that dude. You know what I'm saying?

Absolutely.

That's the number 8 with the fro. He was that dude. He was that dude. So, I'm like, "Damn, if I can—" He's the bar. So if I'm competing against him every night, "Okay, I belong here. This is what it is." Right? So it's just staying focused, sacrificing, and really understanding, you know, that these folks are really counting on me. And to back up, I think I'm the first guy to be a non-starter to sign a max deal.

Yeah.

Like I didn't start. I just, yeah. I didn't even start when I was in Toronto. And then I went to Orlando and signed a max contract. —which is insane. Insane.

Who was the GM that gave you that deal?

For Orlando?

Yeah.

That was, that was, gosh, who was it? Was that Gabe? Yeah. Oh man.

I don't mean to take you back like that, but he deserved a lot of credit. A lot like, I think if I'm not mistaken, it was Darryl Morey that brought James Harden into Houston.

Well, yeah, Darryl— no, no, Darryl Morey didn't bring me to Houston.

No. No, no, no, brought James Harden into Houston. Remember James was coming off like for— I'm just comparing those two signings where you got two guys that are like those dudes in the league coming off the bench on their team before. And you give those guys the deal that you got. And then fast forward to James getting that deal.

Yeah.

Like, you gotta give those GMs a lot of credit to see that because it's not like, "Oh, we gave this guy this deal and like, it was pretty good." Like, nah, you gave this guy a deal and they are franchise players.

Well, the difference is, and with James, you saw it with James.

Yeah, that's true.

You know what I'm saying? You saw it on display with James for years until he got his deal. With me, you only saw it one year. You know what I'm saying? It was like really only one year. 'Cause my first two years, I really wasn't playing that much. But that third year, that's when I started, you know, playing a little bit more, but I still was coming off the bench. So you saw the potential with James. You absolutely knew that he had game.

Yeah, you knew for sure. Definitely. So then you go on to Houston, you get traded to Houston and you team up with Yao. And now at that point, it's like a lot of people don't realize back then you had to have a good guard, a great guard, and a big man. And that's where you started building your championship team was with a guard and a big man. And you team up and you go team up with Yao, young Yao. How was that experience and you going in with Yao and going to Houston?

So the first season was pretty challenging, right? Because you gotta think I'm coming off two scoring championships. Right? No big man at all. Well, at least we didn't play through a big man. So I get to Houston and the first thing Jeff Van Gundy tells me, he was like, "You're not gonna lead the league in scoring." Like, thanks for damaging that shit for me, Jeff. Like, damn, bro. Like, you know, we gotta get the big fella involved. So I'm cool with that. But it was, It was an adjustment because the tempo was a little bit slower, you know what I'm saying? We got a 7'5" guy that we gotta play through, get him involved. And it was just a different style of offense. Now the paint is really, you know, clogged up. So I gotta find, you know, new ways of really getting my game off in those opportunities. So it was, The foundation was built, but we didn't have the pieces around us. So we got off to a slow start, bro. We wasn't good at all. I'm talking about like, we was a below .500 team.

Wow.

Then we started adding bits and pieces, you know, some shooting, John Berry and the David Westleys, guys that can, you know, take the pressure off of myself and Yao, kind of open it up a little bit. And then we started to get on a roll and look like a real team. But it was, and Jeff Van Gundy had to really open up his offense and expand his mind a little bit too on the offense, man. Like, he's a defensive-minded guy. Like, when you talk about preparation, like, there's nobody better. Like, he is phenomenal in that area, having you prepared for games, playoff games, like, for a season. He's phenomenal in that, very, very precise. In practice. He's one of those guys that you'll come in one day and don't touch a ball, line your ass up on the wall, and he'll go from 1 to 15 and tell you what your role is on the team. Like, he was that type of dude. You can't get on the court unless you, you know, have the right amount of body fat. Like, that's what— oh yeah, yeah, that's what he was on. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, your body fat had to be at a certain level for you to even get on the court.

Well, I think there's one team like that now, maybe Miami.

Miami, Miami. But that's all the pedigree though. Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, you know what I'm saying? That's all the pedigree.

Absolutely.

But that's what he was on, man. So it was, I think once we put it together, it was fun playing with y'all. Just to see a guy at that size, so skilled, Draymond. Left hand, right hand, jump hook, shoot left, right shoulder, shooting 85 from the free throw line, can hit the 16, 17 footer, can pass. I was like, "Shit." You know what I'm saying? But what really hurt us though is when that transition started happening with small ball.

Yes.

Phoenix and, you know, Stack, you know, Steve Nash, Marion Quinn Richardson, them guys. And then Dallas started doing it and Utah started doing it. It was tough. It was tough. The league started getting, especially West, it was really challenging. We went on a 22-game win streak, bro.

Wow.

We went on a 22-game win streak. I think Yao got hurt in like game number 12. And we ran off, you know, 22 straight. But that put us maybe 1 or 2 games in first place. That's how challenging the Western Conference was.

Wow.

Did you hear what I said, bro? We won 22 straight and it only put us up 1 or 2 games in first place.

That's crazy. You gonna lose at some point.

Like, that shit was crazy, man. It was crazy. West was so deep, bro. And Chris Paul was in New Orleans. He had them boys running, you know, crazy, him and Tyson Chandler, put on your track shoes.

That's insane, man, to think that that's where the league, that's kind of where that change started to happen. Tell me this, tell me this. Do you, your business as you have the hat on looks like an Adidas hoodie.

Yeah.

Your business, do you think there was a huge benefit for your business, your Tracy McGrady apparel business, and just your brand as a whole, and playing with Yao and the influence that the Chinese have on the sneaker business, the NBA business, but just your brand as a whole, did that grow a lot from playing with Yao and his influence in China?

Yeah, it enhanced it, I will say.

Okay.

Back when I was in Orlando, I had the number one selling jersey in China.

Wow.

Yeah, this is when I was in Orlando before I even teamed up with y'all. I had the number one selling jersey in China because I used to go over there every year since, I think my first trip to China was like 1999. And from that point, I just kept going every year. So I saw, the transformation even in China, how they related to basketball fans, right? I saw that whole transformation. So, but when I got to Yao, of course, you know, being his teammate, being a part of the first China games in 2004 for us to go over there with Yao, saw how he was just a god. Yeah, it 50x my brand for sure.

Mm-hmm. That's insane. It's interesting because, you know, a lot of people didn't understand the impact that China has on the NBA, whether it's a personal guy's brand or whether it's the NBA at whole. And obviously we saw the effect of that with the Draymond Green tweet, I think, what was it, 2 years ago now, if I'm not mistaken. And that was kind of the first time that the people outside of the NBA realize how important China is to our game.

Yeah, yeah. Nah, they're really important. I mean, you talking about the TV money that they give to the NBA, you know, for streaming. And just that relationship has grown so much, man, over the years. And, you know, they're well aware of, you know, what's happening here in the States. And you just gotta be cognizant of some of the comments that you make, because it can be damaging to our brand, everybody brand really. You know what I mean? Some of those comments that we make towards, you know, the Chinese people.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And ultimately you don't want to disrespect anyone. And as someone who is very outspoken, like I'll speak on anything that means something to me and that I have an understanding of, When you start dealing with world politics and world issues, you really have to understand everything that's going on.

Right.

And the backstory, you know, the history, because if you don't, you could just be speaking on one instance, you know, one thing that's going on and you don't quite know the whole story and then it gets all screwed up.

Yeah. And it makes you look foolish. You know what I'm saying?

Absolutely.

You gotta do, your research and get, you know, everything from both sides to really be able to speak on it and articulate yourselves in those matters. And that's why I just leave it alone because it— I don't wanna say something that's gonna be damaging to my brand if I don't have, you know, the full stories, full backstory to it.

Absolutely. No, I definitely understand that. A couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago, I spoke about Chris Paul and I said something about Chris Paul because you always hear people say, "Man, that guy didn't win a championship," as if that unvalidates greatness.

I love, I'm glad we about to have this conversation.

And you know, and I said something about Chris Paul a few weeks ago, which was Chris Paul is a winner. I don't care how you slice it. I don't care what you say. And the first thing that people will say is Chris Paul isn't a winner. He hasn't won a championship. As someone who has, I understand, number one, all of the things that has to go right in order to win a championship.

There was a lot of moving parts.

You talking health, you're talking everybody clicking on, like, and it's not just like players clicking, it's the front office with the coaching staff, everybody, right? And I was saying like, Chris Paul is a winner and people try to take that away because he haven't won a championship. A lot like yourself. And I was watching a podcast yesterday, Keri Champion, Jalen Rose went on Keri Champion's show, podcast, Naked. And she asked him a question along the lines of winning a championship and do he wish he had, would that have validated him or something? And he had a great answer, but I want to hear your take on it because you won your whole career. You won— Yeah. Damn near everywhere you played, but you didn't win a championship and people tried to lessen who you were as a basketball player. And I wanted to hear it from you.

Draymond, I could go to any country in the world, bro. And I'm recognized.

Absolutely.

Anywhere. I'm well respected out in the streets, in the corporate America. I'm well respected, bro. But, Here's what I say about that. Like we was talking about, there's a lot of moving parts that has to come into play to winning championships.

Absolutely.

What my game and how I play, you don't think if I had the right pieces around me, I couldn't win a championship?

100%.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I wasn't sorry. I was one, bro, I was one of the top players in the league. I just didn't, have the pieces around me. If you, and it's crazy 'cause people really forget, you know, certain areas in certain guys' careers. If you look at how great KG was the first, you know, 12 seasons of his career, right? What'd he have to do? He went and joined Paul Pierce and Ray Allen to win that championship. But before that, he was phenomenal.

Absolutely.

Phenomenal. But you know, he didn't win no chip until he teamed up with those guys. What happened when Shaq left and Kobe was there for 2 years? What did he do?

Kobe struggled. Kobe struggled a lot. They didn't make the playoffs if I'm not mistaken.

Struggled, right. So people forget about that, bro. You need the pieces around you to win championships.

Take it from me. I understand it all too well.

Right, right, right. So, but, but you're a key part to that. But here's what I say to those people. I was all NBA. I led the league in scoring, you know, at that time. I was considered one of the best players in the league, right? I had—

Absolutely.

I was Adidas' top-selling guy. I was one of the number one selling guys in China, right? I had multiple endorsement deals. If I had won a championship in my prime, Draymond, the impact that would've had on me, my life wouldn't have changed, bro. My life wouldn't have changed. You know what I'm saying?

Because—

Absolutely. I had, I was, I had everything but that. But you look back when I got drafted, the impact that that had on me, Retiring my mom at 35, 36 years old, retiring my grandmother from being a custodian for 30-something years, retiring my dad, you know what I'm saying? Like changing the complexion of my family, that type of impact, that impacted me, right?

Absolutely.

I know it's a difference, but I'm just saying that if I had won a championship, my life really wouldn't have changed. It wouldn't have changed. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, absolutely.

Maybe I would've made the top 75, but fuck all that shit, man.

I'm a Hall of Famer, bro.

I'm a Hall of Famer. So like, let's have a real conversation, people. You know what I'm saying? Y'all looking at championships. There's a lot of great people ain't win no fucking championship. You don't think Charles Barkley or Patrick Ewing didn't have the talent to win the championship? Yeah.

Draymond Green ain't win a championship.

What are y'all talking about, man? Y'all so caught up in fucking, I tried to win one. I worked my ass off to try to win a championship. It didn't happen for me. You know what I'm saying? But let's talk about impact. Impact, that personally wouldn't have, it wouldn't have impacted me that much as me getting drafted and what that impact was for my career. If that makes sense.

And to your point, there's a lot of great players that haven't won and there's a lot of bums that has ended up on a championship team. So it's not, it's not apples to apples. It's definitely not apples to apples. That's for certain.

Yeah, man. Like listen, bro, it's hard as hell to win a championship, man.

Absolutely. It's hard as fuck to win one. You know, but—

Absolutely. Yeah, do I wish I won one? Absolutely, but it's, you know, I don't lose no sleep over that and feel like that's my validation. When I have the late, great Kobe Bryant saying, you know, what he says about me, and when I have the impact that I have on some of these guys that are in the league, the younger generation, and I listen to these guys and they say who their favorite player was, or I impact that Jalen Browns, You know, the Seth Currys, when they say that I'm their favorite player, like that's the shit that matters to me. The impact on the next generation. That's most impactful to me. You know what I mean?

For sure. I always tell people along those same lines, and for you it's the next generation, but it's like, for me personally, nothing gets me going more than the acceptance and approval of your peers. Because ultimately, like, yeah, we all got tough skin and, you know, we all can have the fuck it mentality, right? Like, oh well, damn. But when you have the approval and acceptance of your peers, that goes way further than anything else.

Far beyond of what, you know, somebody outside of our game has, you know, what their opinion means.

No.

That doesn't carry any weight. But when your peers, you know, validate you, that's all you need.

Absolutely.

And he was that dude, man. He was tough as shit. He was the toughest guy. Like, come on, man. Like, let's not play with this. I know I was nice, bro. I know I was fucking nice. Like, you ain't about to sit here and tell me, 'Cause I ain't win no championship, that I ain't validated. Man, fuck outta here, bro. I don't hear that shit.

Absolutely.

There ain't no way.

The reality is this. There's only a select few of the guy, right? Like you're the guy. Like I've won a championships, I won 3 championships. I'm not the guy. Like Steph Curry's the guy, Klay Thompson's the guy, Kevin Durant's the guy. I do my part. I am very important to what we do.

Right.

But those guys are the guy. They have to carry the scoring load. They have to do like, and the reality is if you look at the NBA, and you really understand the NBA, every decade there's really 1, 2, maybe 3 guys that actually win championships.

Teams.

2000s is the Spurs and the Lakers. 2010s is us and LeBron. And then you like, you know, Dirk got a championship. Kawhi got a championship. But most part, it's— Every decade, the '90s is, you got Hakeem, them got a couple.

Yep.

But the Bulls dominate. Like every decade there's 2, maybe 3 of the guy that actually wins championships. And there's 30 teams.

Let's be real. There's 30 teams. All 30 teams ain't trying to win a championship.

No.

They're not trying to win a championship. As long as their bottom line is good, they don't give a shit about no championship.

Absolutely.

And that, you know, is some of the star guys is the brunt of that. You know, that plays for those type of franchises. They just don't care. Let's keep it a buck.

Absolutely. No, 100%. You know, Joe Dumars, who's like a father figure to me, I always tell people, man, If I didn't meet Joe D through Jordan when I was in high school, I'm not sure I'd be where I am today. Because they showed me that it was a life outside of Saginaw, Michigan that was actually attainable and that actually existed that I had no idea was attainable and that I could be that. And still having a close relationship with Joe D, one thing he's told me along the way, he said, Draymond, Always remember this, every year in the NBA, there's 3, maybe 4 teams if you're lucky, that's truly trying to win a championship.

That's real.

3 to 4 teams per year that are actually trying to win a championship. And spot on. Yeah, that's real.

Spot on. That's real talk. You got game early. I didn't catch it till towards the end.

Absolutely, stressing yourself out like, man. Meanwhile, everybody upstairs, they not having that same stress you having. They wanna have a good team and keep going.

And then you looking across at some of your boys like, damn, man. They rolling over there, bro. They got a well-oiled machine over there, motherfucker, man. They winning. They going deep in the playoffs. Damn, they a contender. Hey, I'm struggling trying to get in the damn playoffs.

I definitely understand, man. I definitely understand. But T-Mac, I appreciate you coming on and having this conversation with me. Obviously for coming onto the show is great, but just for me as a fan of yours, as someone who's come into this league behind everything that you did to carry this league to where it is and the impact. You know, I don't take for granted everything that you got yourself and guys who came before me did for this league. Because I know like, yeah, I've done my part in like my career, but I know the money wouldn't be where it is today. The eyeballs wouldn't be there where they are today. My family doesn't live the life they live.

Yep.

If it's not for guys like yourself, who really pushed this league forward. So one thing I wanna put in the air before we get outta here is, you know, I know you end up living a dream of yours when you play with Sugar Land Skeeters, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, Sugar Land Skeeters.

Yes, so one thing I'm putting out in the world, we got D-Wade in basketball ownership, who, and now soccer, I think as well, D-Wade's doing a great job. I'm looking forward to seeing you owning that baseball team, my man. I know we've been talking about everybody owning basketball teams and hearing that your first love is baseball, you know, and I know you've done well with your money and you continue to maintain the reputation that you had and the brand that you had. So I'm looking forward to you owning the baseball team, my brother.

So I'm working my way up. I own a minor league team, so I'm working my way up.

Hey, now.

I'm trying to get to major league.

Yes, sir. And I have no doubt that you'll get there.

Yeah, man. I appreciate you, bro. Keep doing your thing. It's a lot of love on this side coming from me, bro. Get healthy. I wanna see you back on that basketball court, man, and keep impacting and inspiring the youth, bro.

Yes, sir. Thank you. I appreciate it, T-Mac.

For sure. Love, Dougie.