Passion Is the Gateway Drug, Episode 555 with Chris Emerson, "Without ambition one starts nothing"

Hello, Hillary. Hi, my, my other, my other Zoom call finished early.

Nice. Hello there, Chris. Hey guys, good to see you. So I'm just gonna do a quick intro and then we're just gonna roll into this, um, if everyone's cool with that. Um, so it's—

yeah, Hillary, we're getting— we're— I'm getting feedback. I'm getting, I'm getting like Is it me?

How about you, Chris? You getting feedback?

No feedback.

Okay, I'm gonna come in and out again.

Okay, no problem.

Okay, I hear everything twice. So I'm coming— I'll go leave and I'll come back in.

Okay, make sure you don't have the Facebook page open or something where it's like it's broadcast.

Yeah, that's probably what I do.

You can mute it if you've got the kind of the page open or close it or whatnot.

There, there we go. Sorry.

Is it better? Is it better?

Yes.

All right, cool. All right, well, we're better, better late than never, right? So tonight we— it's 8 PM here in Germany where I am. I think it's 11 AM on the West Coast where Chris is. If Chris, are you West Coast or were you—

Colorado.

Colorado, right? So is it 12?

Yeah.

12, 12 in Colorado. And let's see, it's 2, 2 o'clock in Toronto. Yeah, Hillary?

That's it.

I love it. Around the world. So this is the, uh, Passion Is the Gateway Drug playcast, which is now in service to the Alternative Reality Summit for Mental Health Reformation. I'm joined by my co-host Hillary Van Welter and our grist— our grist— our— that's a combination of guest and Chris. Our guest, Chris Emerson, tonight. And we're brought together by this mutual passions and from different perspectives on mental health, mental illness, mental health reformation, etc., etc. Um, this is being broadcast in a Facebook group that we've started based on a little bit of a video call I put out a couple weeks ago. And this is episode 555 of the Playcast series. There hasn't been 550, uh, 4 54. Yeah, Chris, I just like to go out of order. So, um, based on synchronicity, that's one of my favorite numbers actually. So it's going to be a fun special show. And this, this episode is titled— what did I actually title it? I looked up a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson when I saw your name. Um, I'm related. Yeah, what's that?

Are you?

I'm actually related. He's my second cousin, 14 times removed.

I love it.

There you go. I like to, I like to make the titles just as a springboard sometimes, or for, you know, to get into a conversation and I picked a quote from Emerson that was something like— I can't even find it here. I'm not well prepared, like, with my different screen.

Yeah, one of my favorite quotes, one of my favorite quotes by him is, all of life is an experiment. The more experiments you run, the better.

That's also a very, very, um, apropos quote for what we're going to get into tonight. So I'm also very excited because Chris, Hillary, Hillary and I know each other. We've been working on a project together for the past year But we have never met Chris. So what I really like about these Playcasts is people have been responding to my video or someone shares it with a friend and I'm like, come on, let's go live. I have not done any vetting. I don't know anything about Chris other than we probably have shared some shared experiences and passions and we're all creative and innovators. But I'm kind of excited. I don't do any vetting. I don't know anything. So it's kind of jumping into the deep end and Chris doesn't probably know much either.

I could do something completely outlandish or you could, who knows?

So, so we're gonna jump in. We're just gonna do a quick kind of check-in. Is everyone okay? I'll start it off as a model, like, I'm here, I'm happy to be here, I'm present, everything's good, I've had a great day, and I'm all good, and I'm happy to be here. How about you, Hillary?

I just came from an opening ceremony of 99 Days of Peace where we partnered with a native elder— like a nature— sorry, a nature elder— and, um, to, to bring in this 99— ring in these 99 days of peace. And it was fascinating to listen to 100 people around the world and what nature elder they were bringing in. We had the Ganges, we had, we had the Mississippi, we had various rocks and trees from all around the world that joined, that joined us to welcome in peace. So that's where I came from. So rather an exciting, exciting hour I just spent with, with nature and some very interesting people.

Awesome.

How about you, Chris? How you doing today?

Super excited to be here. Yeah, super excited to just— I love talking and meeting new people. And so yeah, just ready to explore. And I've got a whole quart of cold chicken broth. And so ready to rock.

Yeah.

Awesome. That's, that's, that's perfect. So I'm actually going to ask Um, Chris, what I like to do is I like to have conversation where we weave in our— some of our life's journey or our background, rather than just we all just do soliloquies and introduce ourselves for 20 minutes. We're gonna kind of just find a way to jump into some conversation here. And then I do invite you though, as you speak, if it's, you know, relevant and it works, tell us something about your journey or your past or what you love to do and just kind of weave those things into some of your conversation with us as, as it feels aligned for you. So I just found— we're going to start with this actual quote that I found from Emerson, which was, without ambition, one starts nothing. Because basically, I think that's reflective of what got me started a couple weeks ago, putting this call out for this, creating this summit and really a movement and doing things a lot differently. So that's my ambition. Without that, I guess we don't get anywhere. So that was my ambition that started this. Chris, in some way or another, tell us something about something you have an ambition for. It could be anything or specifically related to mental wellness or what you're up to.

Yeah, it's interesting. In a sense, there's been kind of an end of having ambition. Yeah, like I'm more just enjoying this, you know, experience, you know. And so just, yeah, more and more happy to just be as I am and sort of like, yeah, be myself and explore. And I guess my interest, you know, with coming on this call and stuff relates to like, one of the favorite ways someone has described me that I've heard is a permission giver.

Mm-hmm.

And so like, I like, you know, this kind of giving people permission, you know, to be themselves completely because you know, the best way to live life is to be honest with yourself. And basically means just like being as you actually are right here, right now. And so, yeah, I see like a lot of people, you know, are being told that there's something wrong with them. And it's like, I remember one of like the most intense moments, like with my dad, was him telling me that like, you know, God or the universe makes mistakes and your brain's broken or whatever. And it's like, there's just that intuitive kind of sense of like, no, like everything's perfect. And so, yeah, wanting to, yeah, kind of empower people if they want to be empowered to know that they're perfect as they are.

Wonderful. First of all, touché on not having the ambition. You just struck that out like a samurai. So touché on that. And that's really cool. I want to get into the idea of being a permission giver and how it relates to some of your experience. Hillary, how about you though, as far as the quote, without ambition one starts nothing? What does that bring to mind?

Well, I just looked up the root of the word ambition and where it originally came from. And it originally came from—

There's always an etymologist in the house, isn't there, Hillary?

Yeah. It means going around.

Really?

So it's not the drive or the, you know, what we've called ambition in terms of our current definition. Because when you think about the word amb, ambi, it is ambulatory. you know, it comes from the Latin. So I love the idea of rather than drive or that more ego kind of definition, it's what are you going around doing? What are you going— and sort of mixes with what Chris was talking about of letting go of maybe the conventional understanding of ambition and the conventional definition of it and saying, maybe I'm just going to wander. around and, and see what I come across. And as I come across whatever, I'm, I'm going to trust that I'm going to be taken into places that feed my soul, that feed my— that, that feed my ambition that may be very latent. But I, I also want, in the same side, I do want to say thank God that you did pick up what you did, Bret, 2 weeks ago and decide to take our, uh, our efforts that we had been, um, coagulating in a range of different ways and to put and to just open the floodgate. What started with 2 people is now almost 100, and in less than 2 weeks. And I want to thank you for, you know, for what your ambition actually fired.

Thanks, Hillary. Well, in the Gene Keys book, which is a favorite kind of transformational tool that I use, there's a famous quote he quotes, which is, you have to have an ego worth giving up before you self-transcend. So I think what he meant by that is like the self-actualization part before self-transcendence. Like, you have to have really created something in order to give it up to some degree, to have something established. So, uh, thanks for the etymology. That's, that's super interesting. It makes a lot of sense looking at it that way. You know, I'm going around— without going around feeding your soul, in a sense, one starts nothing. You have to have that call, that the passion or the The connection to going out and going around and doing things. So, Chris, what, what does it mean to be a permission giver to you? I, I mean, I kind of resonate, identify with that. I imagine to some degree people might see me that— see me that way to some degree because I talk about being outside the box or not caring that something sounds impossible. Or of course going up the stream here for many years, like a lot of us saying, you know, mental illness for me calling it perceived mental illness, for one thing, because I don't believe it actually exists fundamentally, and trying to get people out of the stories that I think you've had a lot of experience about. Um, if you don't mind, can you share a little bit about the experiences you were having that, you know, created even the situation that your dad would have said something like that? And, and then maybe tie a little bit in, and feel free to talk long, short, whatever. We'll just popcorn, you know, from this point and see, see what emerges.

Awesome. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the permission giver thing, it does feel like me living— I think you've called it story living or whatever— me living all out, not holding anything back, kind of just naturally gives other people permission to— they see that and they're like, oh, that looks fun. And then they're like, oh, maybe I can do that in their own way and kind of start playing with it. Yeah, basically. Yeah, I'll keep this As succinct as possible. So I was diagnosed bipolar 1 when I was 18. I had a psychotic break, is what they call it. And, you know, ended up on all these different meds. I mean, this was after a really stressful, like super stressful period of time. Like it was, you know, nervous breakdown kind of stuff. And identity crisis, yada yada. And so basically, I, you know, I mean, all as a kid, you know, until that point was super healthy, super happy. And like, it just— things started, you know, I was getting indoctrinated into kind of consensus reality more and more. And then, yeah, I just reached this kind of breaking point. And yeah, ended up on all these different— you know, they took me to like 5 different psychiatrists. And of course they wanted like other opinions, but of course they all say the same thing because they're all, you know, trained in the same thing. And so yeah, ended up on like medications, like cocktails of medications for— I was on medication for 10 years basically.

Same here.

And yeah, there was all sorts of, yeah, really rough side effects and just, it was a very strange time. And lots of therapy too. Like it'd be funny to see the total bill that my parents paid on my therapy. And I'm super grateful for all of it. Yeah, it's just like, it was so catalytic, you know. And eventually was able to find a functional medicine practitioner who had these things called Hardy's Nutritionals. I mean, it was a whole lifestyle shift, you know, just like eating healthier and then like living in a way that was more honest, you know, basically. Just, yeah, coming more and more into like what felt actually right rather than just like, oh, I believe this thing is the right thing to do, so I'm gonna do it. And yeah, this functional medicine practitioner had these supplements called Hardy's Nutritionals. They're called Daily Essential Nutrients. And so I was able to wean off of the medications using those supplements. And then I also got into like, you know, I waited a year of being off the psych meds until starting to get involved with a shaman and plant medicine. And that was also super powerful and super catalytic. And so, yeah.

Chris, what's the timeline? So when you were about 18, you had about a decade, and then you met what? How? So you were about 28, 29 when you met the functional medicine person?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And how old are you now? I'd just like to create a little bit of a—

Yeah, well, it's actually been— maybe I have some of those wrong because it's actually been 3— like, I just recently passed the 3-year anniversary of being completely off of psych meds.

Okay.

And doing really, really well. Yeah, it was like, I'm 34 now. And so, you know, it was probably like 4 years ago or something that I started meeting her and stuff.

Right. Awesome. Cool. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I just wanted to get a little bit of the timescale there. So it's been 3 or 4 years since you transitioned working with her and then the shamanism. Yeah.

Well, it's interesting too, because one of our overlaps is like integral. And so my dad was into integral theory when I was like 6 years old, and he gave me my first Ken Wilber book when I was like 18. And that was actually part of what was kind of like blowing up my consciousness or whatever.

Ooh.

And then I had a second kind of like psychotic break when I was— so I went off meds myself when I was like 24 or something like that. And basically, I went to attend an integral conference, and then like, some stuff went down. And then ended up back in the hospital, like that time was like for 11 days, and then, you know, back on the meds for a while.

Excellent. And how about Hillary, do you have any reflections or questions?

Well, it's a fascinating pathway, because it's one that I think we are hearing quite tracking along very similar lines in terms of, of our first immediate reaction to any kind of physical or mental breakdown is, is we have to go through the doctors and we have to go through the medical professions. And so that's— in fact, if we don't do that, there's something wrong with us. So our, our first stop is medical. And then we get caught up into that medical system and, and, and treated by and through the medical system until we realize it's not working anymore. And, or, and there's too many side effects to the medical. And then it's a question of, okay, now, now what? Because we've, as society, we have relied so exclusively on the medical profession for everything. And every kind of disease, every kind of ailment, it's go to the medical profession. However, in many areas, we've started to see a breakaway. And not just only mental health, we've started to see a breakaway in terms of cancer. And I remember I had the great opportunity to be able to help work with the Canadian— it was the Women's Network for Breast Cancer. And it was all survivors. And the whole focus of that was how to bring alternative medicine into the whole realm of dealing with cancer and with breast, specifically breast cancer. Same thing with HIV. And, and the bringing together of those 2 worlds was, in the '90s, was just, was just so hard. Because it was just not seen to be— you were, you were a Looney Tune if you didn't follow medical advice. And insurance wouldn't cover you. And so many other— there were so many other implications. Now we're seeing that this is becoming a much stronger pathway out of the, of the clinical and medical field, because we're finding that maybe it— we don't need that way of understanding the breakdown or whatever was happening. Maybe this is something that is evolutionary. And maybe it's all part of how we break away from the current way of seeing the world and start to see it differently, and start to understand it and be in it differently. So I applaud you for, for making your way through that, because often it's very difficult once you're inside that system to break away from it without enormous guilt. without enormous shame, without enormous, like, and debt, you know, of moving into a different field that is, that is still relatively new. And I am going through this with my youngest son right now, who has been entrapped in the system, and who himself is saying he doesn't want to do this anymore. But what is the alternative? And it's trying because there is no one answer for everybody. There's not the same thing for everybody. He also has a strong calling towards shamanism. He has a strong calling towards indigenous practice and understanding. He's a strong calling as an animal communicator. He has a strong calling in that at the same time, he's got another side of his brain that's saying, that doesn't make sense. You have to find, you know, there's a— you've got to go through the clinical stuff. So he's got— If you want, like, like, very— he was at one time diagnosed schizophrenic. You know, he's got these, which I think is just 2 parts of yourself that are trying to find a way to integrate. And, and so that's, that's how I really resonate with what you've talked about, and what you're doing, and what, and what you have done. And also, what we want to do in this summit is talk about where do we, where do we go? Not just what we've done, but where do we go? Great.

Yeah, that was really well said, and that's awesome that your son has you. Yeah, I mean, what you made me think of is like this, you know, one of the cognitive biases is called authority bias.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's like, because this person has this piece of paper laminated on their wall or whatever, all of a sudden they know more about what I should do than I do. And so I've been relating to it as like, I'll do my due diligence. Like, you know, if someone tells me something, like, I'll— and I'm curious, like, I'll check it out and I'll see what the alternatives are. But like the buck stops at like what feels right to me.

Yeah.

Because I feel like you're just fucked if you are always listening to other people and not listening to, you know, your experience. It's like this transition I think a lot of us are in is like from orienting to as if there was this kind of objective reality or objective world that had like rules and like certain way that it works to orienting to your experience. Like, okay, this is obviously what's going on for me, and so I'm just going to do this.

Dude, beautiful. I mean, we have a lot in common. We have a lot in common. Um, it took me about a decade as well. Um, similar story on medications and day programs. You know, a lot of people don't expect these things when they look at me, but it was like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or Girl, Interrupted. Did you ever— I mean, here I am, this kind of smart, generous, good guy, and like always easy. Things were easy for me when I was 18 or 19. I was always considered good-looking and smart and had friends and And then to be in this position with these day programs, these— it's just ludicrous. It's ridiculous. But I often joke and call it a dark decade of the soul, Chris, rather than a dark night.

Because yeah, well, it's humiliating. Yeah, it's humiliating. And there's, there's so much bullying that goes on. Like, that's— I didn't even tell my parents when I was like going off medication the last time, you know, because it's like, I don't want to risk the bullying or anything like that.

We have, we have really the same story, which I'm sure is similar to a lot of people, which I agree with you that the paper on the wall from Harvard obviously really affected my parents. But I have to admit, even me being a pretty free-spirited person when I was 18 or 19, I also assumed the authority that the Harvard degree meant this person knew something that I didn't know. Um, and you really, for me, Chris, man, and thank you for going through what you've done and coming out the other side, you know, but It really comes— I did the same thing, man. At some point I had to start weaning off the medicines based on my understanding of reading them. So I started researching too. I was like, I'm a smart guy, I like physics, I like science, let me start understanding the history of psychiatry. Like, let me start understanding these neurochemicals to some degree. You don't even have to be an expert, you just have to start informing yourself. And yes, I too eventually I had to lie to my therapist, my psychiatrist. I also would tell them symptoms I thought to get the medication that I thought I needed compared to what he thought I needed. And I totally had to lie to my parents and all that, which didn't feel good, but it's kind of like almost like an individuation moment. Like, and it relates to this authority you're talking about. Like, if you don't do it, no one, no one else is going to do it for you. So it's a lot about like empowerment and non-victimhood, I think.

Yeah.

And, and I'm gonna let you respond to that, but I want to tie it into something, Hillary, which is A common story you're going to hear from people like me and Chris is until there is a better external system that's fitting, the common thing— and Hillary, you have some experience, I think, too, from, from another thing. I'll let you say it so I don't say it. But when I got sick and tired of being sick and tired is when I had a chance to change because the system wasn't helping me. There was no— nobody was helping me. So, Chris, I was going to ask you. Did you also hit the wall of some version of like, how did you— like, I guess the functional medicine person was helpful because they had a different perspective. But did you also have a little bit of like sick and tired of being sick and tired there where you were like, no one is going to rescue me? Like, I've got to, you know, I've got to step up here and I've got to figure things out. Because I think, Hillary, your son also kind of is going to come to that moment too. It won't matter what doctors don't exist or exist. He's Every one of us, I mean, drugs, alcohol, whatever, has to have that moment where like we want to live. So Chris, I wonder how you might relate to that, you know, at all, just in some way.

Yeah, I mean, what's coming up now is it's almost like life is, you know, playing a game with itself where it is— there's like this natural increasing of sovereignty and this natural, yeah, process of becoming more and more empowered. And it seems like— I'm going to say like that actually disappointment itself is kind of like the mechanism that helps with that. You know, it's like you're going to keep getting disappointed and disappointed, you know, as kind of your process into your own sovereignty.

Yeah, wonderful. Hillary, do you have any relates to that, or?

Yeah, I guess I'm sitting in a quandary, and I'm sitting in a quandary with, you know, I've been through my own addiction journey, and 33 years ago I went into rehab, which was basically I was 2 weeks outpatient and then 2 years follow-up. It was the 2 years follow-up that actually did the trick for me. Mine was alcoholism. And, but I don't, I never went to AA. I couldn't stand the idea of going and talking about, and I appreciate that for everybody, it's always different for everybody. But I do wonder this idea that you have to hit rock bottom before you change. And I do wonder if that is a reality for everybody, or if that's something we've told ourselves. And that's something that's a a belief we've bought into that isn't necessarily true. And that if we did have alternatives available to us to see what could— what else could happen to deal with the discomfort— you have to find the discomfort and the issue. Like, you have to have internally something's not working. And that, you know, you're not going to change unless things— unless something's not working. But is it that you have to actually go to this rock bottom and hit it and then decide, well, I've got to change? I know that I was very fortunate in that when I made my choice to change, it was because of my, at that time, 5-year-old son, who was Cameron's older brother. And it was more about I wanted— I didn't want to be that kind of mother. I wanted to be better. It wasn't that I hit rock bottom, I was in jail, I had, you know, crashed the car and all that kind of stuff. I had got 2 DUIs. But, but I had, but I had guardian angels, and incredible guardian angels. So, so I'm so I think that decision point for us in terms of when something's not working, be it mentally, physically, whatever it might be, I would love to explore. Let's go back to that word experiment. The idea of how can we provide people with a range of different experiments? that they can engage in to be able to make that shift rather than it's, I'm hitting rock bottom and therefore something has to change?

Yeah, well, I would say, just to be clear since this is being recorded for posterity, that I also don't resonate with some kind of absolute rule of hitting rock bottom. I would say it would be more related to what you said, which is everyone has a different version of a choice point that makes them want to change. Like you with being a mother, in some senses metaphorically, that was a rock bottom. Not maybe like jail, but it was like your rock bottom. Like, this matters to me.

Right.

So I do want to be clear about that. And I 100% don't believe everyone has to have the most potentially severe wake-up call. That's why we're going to do with this movement what we're going to do. to try to help kind of reduce the time and energy and effort of all of the part of the journey that's of the shadow and the mucky and like getting off your feet and kind of try to compress that and make it much smaller part of the journey where most of the journey is about expressing and reaching your potential and having a good time and all these other things. So that's definitely the case. There's no question about that. And And then the juicy part of that, maybe for another time, is I do wonder on some level if there is an evolutionary rock bottom. So not related to mental health, not related to your job, but even as a— maybe we're born again thousands of lifetimes or whatever it is. In that case, I wonder if people do maybe need to hit a version of rock bottom on the grandest scale. Like it may not even be in this life, quote unquote, or something. But that's a, that's a pretty big rabbit hole. So. In case anyone wants to say another thing on this topic, I'll open the space and then I have an idea to sort of ask another question. So does anyone else want to relate back to this point?

I guess I want to touch on that evolutionary, and as Bret knows, I'm reading this really fascinating book called Hospicing Modernity, and it's all about what we're dealing with against social change and how we have to it calls for radical tenderness as we hospice what is dying around us. And, you know, it's been very interesting in the last couple of years to actually grieve, on one hand, the— to grieve the disintegration of a society that brought me up. Consumerism, capitalism brought me up. And yet I know that it's not the right thing anymore.

Mm-hmm.

And so, Allowing myself to hospice that part of me that still loves the consumerism, still loves the capitalism, but recognizing that for most of my life I have been trying to create the alternative to that. And I think the same thing is that evolutionary turning point is you come to a place where this doesn't fit anymore. This doesn't— it doesn't feel like— it's like old clothing that is itchy and scratchy and it just doesn't— you just want to take it off because you know that that's not who you are anymore. It's like the skin. of the snake has to come off. And so I think we're in that moment in an evolutionary way. And I think that mental health and a lot of different indicators are playing their role in helping us understand what's not fitting anymore and what is it we want to change.

Yeah. Yeah. And the end of capitalism is the end of this transactional sort of dynamic that we have with people. And I heard you talking about that, Bret, and I really like it because For the last 2 and a half years, like, I've been living outside of that paradigm. Like, I haven't been in the transactional mode, and it's felt so wonderful because I feel like the transactional mode is like a conditional mode. And so you're constantly in this like conditional, like, oh well, these people— I'm only supported if I do this, if I do that. But the more that you live outside that paradigm, it's like, oh my god, like, I'm supported unconditionally no matter what. And that feels so relieving and amazing.

Chris, how exciting is it going to be to provide this kind of thing at scale to the world? Like, that's it. That's my, like, happy spot. We're going to create things that allow that to be the case for people.

Yeah, I mean, whatever happens happens. I mean, I'm just here for whatever, you know. I'm excited. I don't really have an agenda or anything.

That's good. We balance each other out. I want to I, I have an agenda. I've, I've come— I'm reincarnated within this incarnation on a mission. So, um, although I don't really care if it happens or not on a very cosmic scale, um, but, uh, I wanted to ask you, Chris, so your dad, based on his interest in, I guess, Integral and all that, now 3 years, 4 years later after the 10 years, and you've been probably thriving to some degree in your own way now, and often— have you guys had any other conversations? Is he Has he changed his perspective at all? Is there anything you could share about that?

We don't really talk about it very much. Yeah, it's kind of like, he lets me be myself. He's understanding that I'm going to be myself no matter what. And so he loves me a lot. My parents are wonderful. They've been super supportive. Everyone's doing the best they can. But yeah, we don't really talk about it much now. They just want to see me happy and doing well. That's their bottom line. And so as long as I'm doing well, it's like, they're cool.

My parents— I, Chris, I used to say to my friends now the last 10 years, my new friends, I said, because a lot of them are still dealing with expectations from their parents. A lot of my friends are overachievers, you know, like, and their parent, whatever. I said to my friends, I, I sufficiently lowered my parents' expectations when I was 20. So everything after the psychiatric ward, Chris, everything after the psychiatric ward, they're like, yeah, Bret's in love. He's married. He's Traveling the world. He must be doing good. So it's all, and we're very, and we're very lucky, Chris. I imagine in your times when you had where you maybe were in the hospitals, or you've seen a lot of people that their families can't handle the stress, and they leave them behind. That's one of the problems with those day programs. A lot of people get left behind. The families can't hack it financially, emotionally, psychologically. So we're very lucky. My parents also don't necessarily get me, but I was very lucky that they could. love me to the best of their ability. So we're very lucky. And Hillary, like you were saying, Hillary, you know, her son has Hillary. This is— we're more the exception than the rule. So, which is another reason to try to do our best to, to provide these things, because a lot of people, it's like, don't have the kind of families we've had. So shout out, shout out to the cool— the parents that, that make it through with us.

So, so I just have a question for, for Chris around the fact that you, you know, you're not living in the transactional world. Um, and, and so So what brings you joy? What's life like for you?

It's pretty whimsical, honestly. Like, yeah, it's a lot of like— I mean, I live in this kind of low-income housing sort of apartment situation, and so I have like a lot of funny characters that like live around me. There's like 3 things that they don't have, which is like teeth, cars, and jobs. And like, that's part of the non-transactional thing is that like because they don't have cars and I do, like, I become the guy who, like, is the ride. And, like, and it always just feels like, you know, I always check in with myself, like, do I actually want to give them a ride right now? And it's like, if I do, then I do. And if I don't, then I don't, you know? And it's like, it's all good. And yeah, there's a lot of just, like, having fun with friends and, like, working on things that I'm actually interested in. And, you know, just, like, entertainment that I'm actually interested in. And yeah, I'm kind of, like, writing, you know, I write kind of a lot and there's kind of maybe a book that's kind of forming itself. And yeah, just like, listen, I dance a lot, you know, I'm part of a dance community and I just like to—

Cool.

Yeah, I mean, dancing is actually an amazing, amazing practice. It's probably been one of the most powerful things, like up there with psychedelics. And then if you dance while you're on psychedelics, you know, it's a whole— But yeah, it's like, I like outdoorsy stuff too. And so it's just like, I love living in a way where it's just Every day is kind of like, what feels right? What feels good? You know, like, I'm so done with like the whole doing things the hard way kind of paradigm. It feels like, you know, I do take the path of least resistance because I love myself. And so, yeah, that just, you know, feels—

Mm-hmm.

And sometimes that even does look like doing something challenging that I wanna do, like, I don't know, working out or asking a girl on a date or something. But, you know, yeah, it doesn't always look like that.

It's just one other follow-up question, if I could, just one sec. Is, is this is fantastic, because what you're finding are ways of expressing yourself, but also expressing the world around you. And, and, and being part of the world around you. When you dance, you're part of an energy field, right? And you're just, you're in the moment, you're in the energy field. The characters that you must be living around, there is a book in that, like, these characters are just I can only imagine. I just want to come back to the thing you talked about, the shaman, and what that experience was and how you found how that's influenced these types of activities that you're involved in on a daily basis.

Well, there was— so I got into this thing. So kind of after Integral, I got into this guy, my mentor, Peter Brown, which is interesting that this is not number 555 because Peter Brown lives at 555, my mentor. And so, yeah, and I was just on his Zoom call like right before this. So, yeah. But like, I got— he teaches this thing called the Yoga of Radiant Presence. And radiant presence is just his favorite word for what this is, what this reality is. And yoga is being used in the sense of like exploration. So exploring what this is, you know, by running all the experiments that you want to run. And basically with the shaman, you know, there's quite a few ceremonies that I've done with him, but there was one in particular where I just like, yeah, was all of a sudden identified as this absolutely like unlimited dimension. And it was just like such a game changer because it's like, oh, it's like my parents never told me about this. And so, yeah, it's just like the work with the shaman has shown me that reality is unlimited, that I am unlimited, that I am this, I am reality. And so it's just been this further deconditioning from consensus reality, you know, all the kind of delusional indoctrination that we receive, which is also— it's like, it's so trippy because even that indoctrination is itself reality kind of playing a game with itself. And so yeah, that's my answer.

Hilary, did you want to follow up on that?

No, I just think it's fab that breaking open to see, to understand the world in a different way, the field in a different way, that when you broke that open, you start— you found ways of interacting in that field and with that field and expanding that field in very artistic ways. And I think that that's That's a real— is a game changer because as you dance and as you write and as you do all these, you know, these, then, and live your, uh, drive these and, and be a chauffeur and all the different things you're doing, um, you know, you yourself are, are bringing healing in, uh, in a really interesting and unique way.

Yeah, yeah, thank you for saying that because it has been interesting seeing some of my neighbors, like how they warm up to me not actually being in a transactional mode. Because, because they'll start off feeling like guilty or like asking for a ride. Like it's like hard for them to actually ask for help or ask for a ride. But then as like we get kind of more comfortable in our relationship, it's just like they don't even hesitate to ask. Yeah.

I'm really glad you asked this, Hillary, because a couple of things became evident to me. Hey, one, by the way, Chris, I don't have a job. I don't have a car. And these teeth are actually fake because I lost all mine. What?

Killing it.

So we're, uh, best buds. I, I, I live there. No, it's like I live there. Um, but in asking that question and asking that question, Hillary, um, I mean, I'm having aha moments talking to Chris and Mark the other day. And Chris, I was saying to Mark the other day, I've been involved the last 10 years in like all this like systems design and social architecture and software and activism and my own kind of conscious evolution. And this mental health journey has been personal, and I've kind of been working it from different angles, but not as a project, so to say, or, um, or an ambition, for lack of a better word. So I wasn't really aware of all the people like me who were speaking the way you are and And tuning into some things which I'll share in a minute, but it's quite emotional and refreshing and amazing to meet you and to meet everyone. In this case, to meet you, Chris. Because, so first of all, I didn't mention it, but one of the reasons I call this a playcast and not a podcast is because the word illusion means to play. So one of my kind of taglines is use your delusion. Because we need to use our play, which is exactly what you're doing. For me, it just— I like to reframe these, like, delusion. Why did everyone, anyone ever say that was a bad or good thing? It is what it is, but use it to your advantage or use it for your, your well-being rather than using it for what it's not serving you. So like, to hear you talk about, you know, understanding yourself to be infinite awareness or whatever, you know, to be in a space with people where we're talking about this and we're not needing to defend that, you know, to the authorities or to be worried that that's going to create some situation where we're hospitalized and all that stuff. It's, it's quite amazing for me to come full circle. I discovered this happened to me. My first episode like yours was 1994. I'm 47 now, um, and I was into Ken Wilber and all that. So, um, all that stuff blew my mind. But what really struck me, the most important thing I took away from the last segment was, Chris, what these conversations are going to reveal in real time, which is why I feel so good about just having these conversations. Like, I don't need funding for that. I don't need a big website to do this. But there's— it's so valuable because what you shared is the integral way you are thriving. Dance, being in service to people, writing. Laughing, you know, non-transactional. Like, you, you are sharing with the world because there's no magic bullet for this perceived mental illness. Everyone has a different path, but there are patterns. We wouldn't, you know, archetypal patterns, let's say, because it's no— obviously it's no, uh, coincidence that bipolar, you know, we have a lot of similar experiences like spending money and, and staying awake and having visions, you know. there's something interesting about that, like, because I don't mind labels when they're not used as weapons, right? There's nothing wrong for me, like, you know, the bipolar experience gives me an idea of what someone has experienced compared to the obsessive-compulsive experience or the schizophrenia experience. I don't mind the categories to help orient you, you know, to kind of where you're at in the territory. It's only when they become these sledgehammers, you know, to the— that are used kind of against us that the, the categories and the labels become a problem. So— I just want to say thanks for, for sharing that last segment because it's like real time. This is what I believe people kind of need to hear. You don't necessarily need medications or go to therapists. You need to follow your bliss. You need— like, the transactional world is causing— again, this is where the mental illness question becomes more about the whole ecosystem, not just any, you know, sick individual. There's also the factors of all of these different pieces.

So.

I always find it— I found it really enlightening to hear about how you've transitioned really into transforming what I call perceived mental illness into a blessing. Like, I mean, so thank you. Thank you so much. Go ahead. My pleasure.

Yeah, thank you for having me. And yeah, as you were talking, I mean, one of the things that kind of peeved me a little bit was like how much the bipolar experience is different for every— it's so unique for each individual. And so like, I remember getting annoyed, like getting kind of grouped in with all these other people Where it's like we're all having a totally unique experience. It's like, I like what you said one time, Bret, which was like that, you know, it's this pathologizing of the human experience itself. And where that line is drawn is completely arbitrary of like, this is okay and normal and this is not, you know. And normalcy is actually a fantasy. Like, there's no such thing as normalcy. It's like weirdness is the norm, you know, or uniqueness is the norm.

Yeah.

Like, we're all absolutely unique. Yeah, and the other thing that's just coming to mind right now is like how silly it is, how much of a numbers game it kind of is. Because if I am all by myself believing that there's like this Flying Spaghetti Monster in the sky or something coming to get me, or it's gonna come like, you know, take me, the ascension is gonna, you know, happen, then people are gonna think I'm crazy. But if a large group of people all believe that, then like within their group, it's like you'd be crazy not to To believe in that. And so, yeah. And then finally, it's like there's also the element where it's like people can kind of be assuming that they're talking about the same thing, but they're totally not. So like a word like ego or something, you know, I could say the word like ego and then the other person could be like, oh yeah, ego. But it's like, you know, that word has so many different meanings to so many different people that it's like you guys don't actually— you guys aren't actually talking about the Yeah, absolutely.

I want to also just share, in a sense, the most interesting perhaps, or for me, important thing you said, which is you found a way or a path to love yourself. In my, in my opinion, that is the— there's 2 things to me that are the cure to perceived mental illness. One is Some version of detachment, separation between you and your experience. So like, you can't— to know that you are infinite awareness, it takes like kind of a little bit of that not this, not like I— disidentifying with all the impulses and the urges and the visions. And like, so there's some version of like detachment. It's not the right word, but it is important to me. And then loving yourself, because it even goes back to the authorities and your parents. Like, no one is really gonna— Ultimately be able to provide that version of love that makes the difference, because that you have to find within. So I just want to celebrate and acknowledge that I also agree with you, like loving myself was the, the, the, the thing that mattered the most in a sense, or the thing that keeps— that also keeps me going in a sense, because there's that fallback is the infinite awareness, loving myself, you know, that That's my medicine, I guess, you know, for lack of a better word.

Totally. Like, yeah, I mean, I've referred to it as a pandemic of self-hate. Like, just so many people are just— there's so much shame and guilt. And I think some— the reason why a lot of people stay so busy all the time, or sometimes why they are so ambitious and seeking for these big goals and outcomes, is because they don't love themselves. And like, if they didn't have this big thing to strive for, then it's like, what am I left with? Like, I really have to just like love myself?

So what's really fascinating for me as I listen to this is we wrote some time back, about 2 years ago, when we first started Call to the Mothers, which was our original way of putting a call out to the fact we had to change what we were— how mental illness and addiction were being framed. And we put out one of the statements was, what if Those that are deemed to be mentally ill or addicts are actually pioneers in co-designing and co-creating a new way of well-being. And what came to me as you were talking, because I took— I wrote down the word systems that you have talked about, Bret. You said systems, you know, systems change and systems design. And in our old world, that's always been an engineering role. like engineer system design and the engineering mentality and the world is mechanical and all of that. You are a system designer, Chris. You are changing— it says to me, you're creating a new archetype from the engineer who system designs and architects who system design to your system redesigning through your dance, through your interactions with your community, through the different kind of loving yourself, all the things you described, you're a new archetype of a system designer. And as you continue to do that, and as others start to, as you say, when people are around you, they start to feel that kind of vibe. And they'll find, hopefully find their, whatever's calling them in terms of their, what brings them their joy, their aha, whatever it might be. But I think this is to me a huge aha I just got, but the whole idea of systems design being this— an archetype like you.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I see it as like reality is creating itself now, always now, by pure magic, basically, for the purposes of play, exploration, experimentation, whatever.

Right, exactly. And that's system redesign at its best, because that's how the reality shifts. Wow, that's fantastic.

Yeah, amazing. So Chris, tell us a little bit about this book maybe, or what— well, so you're gonna touché me, I know, if I don't— if I don't ask you the right way, you're gonna slam me down again, the Samurai Wisdom. Um, I just want to know more about your, your kind of creativity, uh, external creativity in a sense. Like, obviously dancing is creative.

Yeah.

You know, serving people is creative. So I just mean more like the book or like— and I also wanted to ask you, Chris, over the years while you were struggling— so for me, I was stuck in a, a low-rent apartment. It was actually quite nice. So for 10 years I was getting like $800 a month. I lived in New Jersey, by the way. So I was getting Social Security supplemental income, $800 a month. I was getting an apartment that was $100 a month. And basically my parents were middle class enough to make sure I had a car and car insurance. And then I basically used credit cards to survive, which I have no— some people get on my case and I'm like, are you kidding me? I'm not even getting into that. The credit card companies don't care and it's all a game. So yeah, like I was, I was gonna say I needed to survive and like, so that's how I— But it was kind of living abundantly, to be honest. Like, you— like, the light side to what happened to me was I had a lot of time to study things that I wanted to study. I had a lot of times to do self-inquiry. So I've always said my only vocation has been self-inquiry, because as soon as I went into this existential kind of moment, I, I started like Ramana Maharshi, Who Am I, and all the integral stuff. So I actually used that decade I would read a book a day at some point because I just like different subjects, you know, like, like a lot of us. I'm a Renaissance type person. So I kind of— at least I got out of that a homegrown education about the things I love to do. I made a record one year when I was depressed. I wrote a screenplay for 2 years. So I'm wondering if you could weave in a little bit, like, were you— over the last 10 years, the 10 years prior to the last 4, were you also able to popping in and out of school? Were you reading? Were you learning anything? Like, or was it all kind of dark in a sense?

Like, yeah, no, I actually, I graduated, like I got a master's degree from Naropa, you know, in transpersonal counseling psychology.

I remember you mentioning that because that's— yeah, when I started reading Ken Wilber, that was the first place I wanted to go, basically.

Right. Yeah. And then I actually worked. So before I went to Naropa, and after I went to Naropa, I worked with this company called Wind Horse Community Services, which is an alternative mental health agency in Boulder, Colorado.

Oh.

And yeah, I mean, I made videos. Like, when I was starting in like 2013 or something, I like, under the name Everything Kids, just started making these videos that were like, yeah, it kind of felt like just like it's impossible for me. It's like, yeah, it's so frustrating to not be able to communicate my experience. And so that's what I found so wonderful about these videos. I mean, it's kind of like a unique way of making videos. I call them like collage videos or collage art because I'm just like stitching together a bunch of ideas that seem to kind of flow together. But it'll kind of— yeah, it's hard to explain. But I just like—

Yeah.

It felt so good to just like be like, okay, like this is what I want to express, you know, because you could do that with art, you know. And so, yeah, and then the book is kind of an extension of like my experience with Peter Brown and the Yoga of Radiant Presence, because I also have been in this, yeah, self-inquiry for a long time. I mean, my favorite question is, what is this?

Mm-hmm.

And yeah, it's like there's So many fun ways to like, yeah, to like express this. And so the book is kind of that.

Right on. So Chris, with the caveat you're obviously going to go with the flow, I'm wondering if you see yourself somehow directly in a sense contributing or being a part of what this thing is that we're trying to kind of have emerge. Like, I don't mean by commitment-wise. I mean, do you see yourself kind of participating in some way? Would you, like, would you share at a summit about your experiences? Like, are you cool? Are you interested in— again, without— who knows what will happen, but I'm just curious if, if you'd like to share about, or what would be exciting for you, even though you got to live in the now.

Yeah, I mean, I'm always, I'm always making game time calls and kind of taking things one variable at a time. But yeah, I mean, maybe. I mean, I'm excited about kind of just whatever seems exciting. And like, yeah, right now, I mean, if you had a conference or something, I mean, I would definitely consider it. So yeah, just always happy to, you know, participate in any way that, yeah, feels right. And so you can always reach out to me and kind of check in and stuff.

What would it— what would need to be like, what seems exciting? So for you, What would exciting be?

Maybe if there was like, you know, just talking like this is exciting. And then also if there's like people that have questions or something and that they want to have answered, I could do my best to kind of like, you know, share things that they're interested in and stuff like that. I mean, I'm also excited about like the possibility of You know, some kind of actual building, you know, some kind of like physical space where it's like, you know, the whole intention is to help people, yeah, that don't want to go to the conventional kind of, you know, ways of doing it. So yeah, I know that in the past that that's been very difficult for some places like Soteria. Like, it just can be really hard on the staff and stuff like that, but I'd be curious about, you know, playing around with those kind of models.

Yeah, you know what's— uh, one second, really. I'll pass it back to you in a second. What's interesting, Chris, is first of all that you did work kind of in the field. I also, when I was 30, my kind of— when I turned things around, I went back to school for 2 years and I thought I was going to do like psychosocial rehabilitation. So I did an internship where I got to work at a day program. Uh, you would have loved it because I had the Happiness Agenda. That was the program I got to institute at the day program. But I didn't have to fill in all the paperwork, thank God. So I actually got to implement the happiness agenda rather than say I'm going to do it.

Right, right.

I actually got to do it and interact with the consumers compared to most of the beautiful people that were working there. But because of the bureaucracy and the pay and the stress, they really stopped serving the population in any revolutionary way. They just became babysitters and they got brought down. So I totally hear you about a physical space needing to be equally as abundant for the care the caregivers, you know, as it is for the people. That is like one of the most important things. So it's really interesting that we both had— we've been on all sides of the equation, you know, like on each side of the desk and all that. So, so that's really cool. I really— that's the kind of thing I wanted to know because we're going to be taking you up on that on some level, um, because I'm not stopping until we have those places all over the planet and the staff is all taken care of and it's all freely accessible and we can make money in other ways. There's no— there's no limits to, to what we're going to do really about sustaining something like this. The old business models are obsolete and stuff. So I'm, I'm excited that that's something you might, you might be, uh, interested in. Go ahead.

That sounds interesting.

Well, because I'm thrilled to hear what you said, because it's exactly why we started Call to the Mothers, was the original idea was to undertake research to understand what could this physical entity be. And what did it need to contain? And what did it need to have? And what was not only the business case, but the heart case for why this needed to exist? And so the whole idea of the summit is also for us to— it's got 3 sort of layers to it in terms of continuing to do this research around where the breakdowns in the system are, where the opportunities are in the system, where's the grief happening in the system, and where's the possibilities for a new emergent one to come out of it. Come forward. And at the same time, looking at how— what is the design criteria that we need to be able to create a physical entity? And what would it have to contain and all that kind of thing? And the third thing is a crisis— mobile crisis response unit that we want to pilot, which is which came out of the original research we did a year ago, which was this kind of Winnebago that shows up when there's— instead of when police are called, when there's a mental health crisis, that this Winnebago shows up. It's got the most beautiful lighting, furniture, plants, music, dog. It is a totally different environment that you come into, and automatically your nervous system just recalibrates. And brings you down to a place where you can actually connect and actually think. And then would you have an opportunity to explore some different modalities to be able to recalibrate at that moment and to look at what could a next step be? What's a different kind of assessment and what could a next step be that would then lead to this physical act, you know, place that you could actually go to from the mobile unit. But the mobile unit is, the idea is to start introducing this kind of this radical thinking about there's an alternative in a very sort of concrete, very sort of experimental but evaluative way to see what is the difference when that shows up versus the cop car. And so again, those were the sort of the 3 sort of layers when we started looking at the summit. And so the idea that you would be interested in exploring what would a physical place be? And for, from, from, from all these different players' viewpoint, because we, I truly believe in what I've experienced is that the system itself is traumatized, because it's never had a chance to, to, for respite, it's never had a chance to heal. The people in the system have never had the chance, like the caregivers, they mostly, many of them come into this calling because of their own background. And they've never themselves had a chance to heal. So I just want to say how grateful that you said that, because that's so aligned with, with, with what we wanted to do with the summit. Cool.

Yeah. And that's what the psych wards kind of become is this kind of like, when people do just need some kind of respite, you know, they end up just having a nervous breakdown and going there. But it's like, it could just be so much better.

Exactly. Yeah, it's the last place you're gonna find peace and quiet and rest. And, and it's, it's quite paradoxical, isn't it? Every— like you're saying, everyone's there for a similar reason, yet throwing everyone like that at that moment in their lives together in a small floor of a hospital is like— I've always said, I just— it's just weird how Groupthink takes over common sense. So like my, my famous story is, you know, when I would go to the hospital, like, and they thought I was in a crisis of some kind, mental crisis. So they take my blood, they make me sit there for 8 hours. And then in the waiting room, while I'm waiting to get my basically future taken away from me, by the way, so I'm already like super stressed out. There's a big 80-inch screen TV playing the nightly news.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

If you asked any psychiatrist in a quiet space and you had their attention and you asked them, do you think it's a good idea to have an 80-inch TV broadcasting the news in a room where psychotic people are waiting for 8 hours? They would all say, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Everyone knows that people often get messages from the TV when they're in psychotic states and schizophrenia. So anybody— if you ask the doctor, they would say, no, of course that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. But yet Downstairs from their ivory towers in the hospital, that is what happens. And it's just like, it doesn't— it just honestly, like, shame on them to some degree. Like, I'm not here to blame people, but it's a little bit like— but this is why we all have to pick up the stick, you know? For me, in my opinion, like, we have to become— if anything, we have to become the self-driven authorities that use collective intelligence and creativity and compassion, because boy, the, the authority figures now are kind of clueless. I'm gonna end it on that. Let's, let's do a round of, uh, just check out gratitude. Um, I can— I'll finish it up. Hillary, do you mind sharing like just any conclusions?

I'm just thrilled to have this conversation with you, Chris. It's just, it's, it's again, it, it confirms so much of what we have been exploring and, and the idea of ongoing experimentation. We don't have the answers. But we know collaboratively we'll find them, and and that we'll co-create a very different kind of reality around around guided by what has been called mental illness. That is coming out and saying, "Well, you know, there's another way to do this," and and and it actually is the canary in the mineshaft for society, and saying as we start to find these ways together, it the larger population is also going to be the one that's going to be the big winner because we'll have done the experimentation on behalf. of everybody, because there— because this is something that everybody's going to need at some point in time. And unfortunately, those who are dealing with the acute side of things right now are the drivers in terms of making sure that we do deal with it differently. So I want to thank you. And I want to thank you for who you are, for your journey, for sharing your journey. And we would just love you to be part of helping us design this summit so that we can design this place. and start co-creating in a concentrated kind of way to see what could be possible.

Right on. Chris, how about you?

Awesome. Yeah, no, I'm just super grateful to be here and be in the fold and get to meet you guys. And I'm just glad that this, you know, talking about this stuff has value for you guys because it's just fun to talk about. And yeah, just excited to see, you know, what happens. I mean, it's my experience now is that like this is completely out of control and it's intelligent. And so, like, you know, like, let's see what this, this can do. And so, yeah, just thank you both very much for being here and having me and looking forward to more diving in.

Cool. All right. Well, thank you, Hillary, as always, for being my partner in the greatest heist in history. Heistory. I call it heistory. We're stealing it. They We're stealing it back. We're stealing our sanity back. The great heist. Um, thank you for, for being on the journey with me, Hillary. And Chris, thank you for taking some time today. Um, like I said, paradoxically weird that I've not had all these conversations. I've been having these kind of conversations on my journey in person, right? So I've learned a lot about— I've met a lot of people like us on my daily, which I think I've been building I guess maybe gave me the confidence to start saying, well, this is what I'm seeing. Like, this is what we're seeing, and it has value. So yeah, Chris, thank you for sharing. I believe these conversations are super important. And if any— there could be one person in the world that sees this conversation and has a better day, or has a son or daughter or husband or wife and has a new idea, or just understands that nothing's impossible and whatever you've been told is probably wrong. And Go find the others, basically. So I'm glad we found you, Chris. Thank you for coming.

Yes, my pleasure.

Okay. All right, we'll see you next time. We'll do this again sometime, obviously, as well. Lots of love, Chris. Lots of love, Hillary.

Lots of love. Thank you.

Bye-bye.