Passion Is the Gateway Drug Playcast, Co-pilot w/ X Razma & Bret

No, like you're saying, I want to do this now. We need land. We need to live in these places, and we need to bring the new device— energy devices, the VR healing. You know, me and you were into mental health transformation. Like, it's time, as we all know, but it's even time, time, time. Like, if the renaissance is going to make it to 2030, like, let's get some of these locations up and running that are hubs so it's a network where we can all go, you know?

Yes.

Yeah, so thanks for listening. You can—

Oh, you're so welcome. And one thing I want to say is I think there's a random video playing, and I think you're on screen share.

Oh, let me go. Yeah.

Not sure if people can see us, which is fine for me. I mean, either— anyway, it's fine.

That's cool. That's a good time to stop. Yeah, right on.

Well, I mean, it just— oh gosh, so much I have to say about that. So one of the pieces that I released with Design Science Studio is called Trip Report, and it is an integration artifact that is a documentation of a transformational experience. And upon repeated viewing is like how you integrate that process and how you can welcome your community into that integration to share what you've learned and like hold you to that self that is like being born and developed. And one of the visions for like an upgraded version of Trip Report is to document people's healing process and to like propagate that, to show different methods of healing, you know, different styles, how you can incorporate bodywork, energy work, etc., nutrition even into that. And to make, you know, like definitely a series, but also like a beautiful film even where you could incorporate like, you know, like honestly, this is like a soundstage. You don't even have to build anything. I put up, you know, some Lithuanian linen as my white backdrop, but to— you could also do like, my co-producer is really into animation, or like potentially point mapping the scene in like incredible detail and then getting animators to visually show what is happening in someone's experience in their psyche, for example. But this idea of like kind of like performance healing and making art of the healing process, I think I am— that is so in alignment with my life's purpose, and I think is really potent. It's a potent story. Healing stories are potent experiences. And then, you know, weaving in just the natural— the relating with the natural world that comes from stewarding a piece of land and the stories that come from that, like, that's, that's a winning nexus. And it takes people who are comfortable, like, being documented, but, you know, the more that I get into that, and I have this practice called therapeutography, which is a combination of the words therapy and photography, where it's like helping people be seen in their evolutionary process and in how people you know, how they want to relate in the future. And so, I think, I feel confident I could, like, pull together a group that would be open to being documented in that type of an intimate way. And, I mean, those stories are incredibly compelling. And they're real. That's the thing. You know, it's like, it's real, really happening.

That's excellent. It's like, it kind of reminds me of like, it's like upgrading the clinical trials. Model, you know, like, because for me, because I was like you, I mean, I've told you before, I was put in the psychiatric wards in my 20s for 10 years and given all these medications and the scientific method and the scientific model and pharmacy, all that stuff. They do these weird clinical trials and it's like, but the missing piece for me for holistic health and holistic healing and all this is we have not been able to do a systematic, you know, precise documentation of like, here's 1,000 people who are having the bipolar experience. So I'll put it You know, my— like, generally, the bipolar experience. I'm not gonna call it a disease or an illness, but it's an experience. It's like a sub-experience that some people have.

Yeah.

Like, let's call it like mood swings and things and, and all that, which I've— I always said I would be disingenuous if I said that hasn't been part of my experience. Calling it a disease or a mental illness is a whole different story that has caused immense amount of unnecessary suffering and, and, and, and treatment and all that. But what we have done is—

It's an altered state of mind. It's neuroatypicality. It's neurodiversity. But please continue.

Yeah, yeah. Good, good. We're gonna swing back to that. So, I mean, my simple point was when we can just take 1,000 people who have the bipolar experience and put them through this process, and then we follow up and we say, look, 800 out of the 1,000 for the last 5 years are showing they're following their bliss. They're having an impact and they're feeling great and they're in relationships or whatever. 100 got what we say worse, like devolved or something. And we just do the— that's what it is. That's all you can do when you're doing positive experimentation. You have to document it. And we have not. I mean, you probably know more than I do, but when the psychedelic revolution started with Leary and Ram Dass, before he was Ram Dass, and Lilly, they were quite clinical. and precise about keeping notes and like going through set and settings and all before it got, you know, co-opted. And, you know, I mean, I was reading something, they said, you know, before it got demonized, no one ever jumped off a roof. Like, no one ever died, you know, from LSD until it became the story that it was— that that was going to happen to you. And people started taking LSD outside of set and setting and the clinical type trials where it was conscious and very deliberate understanding the power of the of the medium. And that's when people started having all these bad trips and all because they were using it recreationally, let's say. So yeah, yeah, I just wanted— that's, that's what I see you talking about in a way. It's an uplifted version of clinical trials. I'm not— I don't want to use the word clinical, but I just mean to be precise and to document and then show the world, here's the results.

Completely.

That's the scientific method. Science is not a thing. The scientific method is a thing. And the scientific method is amazing. It's beautiful.

Yes, yes, I'm a huge supporter of the scientific method. I love, I love science. I love like parsing out the factors that contribute to something. And this idea of like almost like entheogenic, like ethnography, or the more like qualitative sciences— sociology, I think, would have a lot to say like in this kind of, in this realm. And the other thing too is, yeah, I'm— I personally, so Again, one of the things I'm releasing, um, is Guide for Guides: Ethical Psychedelic Spaceholding, because I see people who can't find guides, only have peers, and/or like they think they need to go to these like, you know, sketchy shamans who don't have their best interests in mind, and they don't know the questions to ask. And then I see these like poor young folks like have traumatic experiences of exploitation and assault, and then, you know, there's— then we need a whole, you know, like restorative justice system for that. But the reason I'm releasing this is because when you have someone there who cares for you, who's a true guardian for you, it like biologically— these, these compounds are like extremely safe. And even like extreme experiences of all kinds, you know, if you have a person there who's like your guide or your sitter or your space holder, or even better if you have a community of people around you who wants to support you in your growth, like that's, you know, you take away so much of the danger. And, you know, yeah, exactly, like Another great example is people don't want to call for emergency services. Like, 5-MeO ceremonies don't want to call emergency services when someone's not breathing because they don't want to get in trouble. And I had the same thing happen. I went to Northwestern University, and we had— I was part of students— I was the president of Normal SSDP, the chapter at my university, way back in the day. And we finally got this kind of program going where if you were on campus and you called 911 to like save your friend who was like super drunk, like you wouldn't get in trouble because people were— there were people that died because nobody wanted to call because nobody wanted to get in trouble. It's like, absolutely, wow, that's, that's not what matters here, you know.

To say the least. Yes.

Like, wow.

I'm just, I mean, I'm so fascinated. I'm kind of a paradox. So I took LSD, I think twice, and some mushrooms, you know, when I was 18 or 19. So I'm 45 now. Um, I don't think I took particularly strong LSD, and I don't think I took a particularly lot of mushrooms, though I am, I think I am very sensitive. And then, as I was saying, so when I was 19, I had what you would call a psychotic episode or spiritual emergency, really depending on the community and the paradigm you're in. You know, obviously if I was in a— transpersonal community or an Esselen community or an indigenous community, they would be like, oh, maybe this guy's got a gift, let's figure out how to help him out, compared to this guy's got a mental illness, there's bipolar in the family, so we'll just label him with a genetic disorder and put him on medications, blah blah blah, and then he's got a life sentence of what they call mental illness. So—

Yep.

So because of that, from the age of 19 till now, I've only ever smoked marijuana, which I actually had trouble with at some point, and I think I was smoking bad weed in my 20s, which created a whole a repetitive pattern of ending up in the psychiatric ward, to be honest. I was getting it from the inner city, and I really think there was some angel dust or something. But that aside, because of those experiences and because I was a huge fan of Pink Floyd— are you familiar with Pink Floyd's history with Syd Barrett?

Uh, not their history, but their music is phenomenal.

Yeah, well, the original singer Syd Barrett basically had an onset of schizophrenia from probably excessive psychedelic use in terms of it triggered it. You know, that's a whole story of what triggers what, but he, but he Yeah, but he had a full-blown schizophrenic episode and he— well, you know Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here? Like, you know, that's all about Syd Barrett. It's all about the original singer. They went to school with him. So Wish You Were Here is all about this guy Syd Barrett. Dark Side of the Moon, I'll See You on the Other Side, like, um, we're just, uh— How I Wish You Were Here, Shine On You Crazy Diamond, it's all about Syd Barrett because they were his childhood friend. And there's the actual line, when the, when the band you're in starts playing different tunes.

Yeah.

He started playing tunes live. Like, he would just go off and just play different tunes and all this. So, so I kind of had this in my mind because I was such a big fan, and then I had all this happen to me. So ever since then, I've been quite scared to take psychedelics, thinking, one, I'm sensitive. Two, I've seen so many people take psychedelics and I'm way more, quote unquote, enlightened than them and way more, like, conscious. So I'm not seeing, like, the You know, I know they can do things, but just recreational and all these ceremonies, I'm like, well, this doesn't seem to be doing much for people. And then I wanted to feel like I was so enlightened and I've gotten better that I could just take, you know, like they say, they're, you know, Maharishi could take 10 tabs of acid and nothing would happen to him. Like, I want to believe I could be like that, but I've always just— because I take, you know, I could have a little bit of marijuana and I'm so sensitive that it's like, I think it's kind of like a mild trip for me. And we all I mean, you know way better, but clearly everyone. And same thing with mental health treatment. One thing, this whole idea like, well, you do yoga or take vitamins or, I mean, obviously things are, everything like that is healthy. Change your diet, you know, have supplements, but there is no one cure-all for people who experience unusual states, you know, or whatever you want to say. So, so I've never, so I love, but I love the counterculture. You know, I love the Psychonauts and the history. It's like, I'm kind of like a closet Psychonaut who doesn't really take the heavy dose psychedelics anymore, but I just love the— how could you not? I mean, it's just—

You're gonna love this. You're an endogenous Psychonaut. Like, your brain, in the way that it produces its neurochemicals, like, you might be in those altered states that other people have to take the exogenous psychedelics to get to.

Exogenous and endogenous. Yes, nice.

Yeah, so it's like you're self-producing a psychedelic state. Like, for example, for me, like, I have— I'm very sensitive. Like, you know, I actually get high if I'm like eating super clean and I'm like doing sprouts and fermented foods. Like, I will get high from my food. Like, it's— and it'll be like colors are more vivid, etc., you know, like from a cannabis experience. For example, and also cannabis is definitely a psychedelic.

It's I mean, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I've read articles that were fair enough scientifically, and they're like people they don't understand cannabis is actually not really a super minor psychedelic. It's it's a psychedelic. I mean, obviously different, but yeah. So tell us a little bit about that. Like that's a fact, so to say, right?

Oh yeah, definitely. And I mean, I guess this is a good moment to be like, well, how do you define psychedelic? And Uh, like, there are— I think there are things that are psychedelic that, you know, like psychedelic music or psychedelic art, you know. And I think, like, for me, I think psychedelic is just a state of mind or consciousness where, um, like sensations and interconnection is enhanced. So, like, maybe I have a different definition. And I was actually, for my book Guide for Guides, I was toying with the idea of just having it be Guide for Guides Ethical, like, Altered State Space Holding, because I've had to hold space for people like after breathwork ceremonies, after really intense VR ceremony— not even ceremonies, but like VR experiences.

Um, right.

You know, the experience of someone like— there's people who I sit, sit for at, you know, the Burn and other festivals who don't take psychedelics at all, but they haven't slept for 3 days and they're in a psychedelic state, you know, like—

And that's number one. I, I believe that's number one, by the way. Lack of sleep to me is the number one thing that causes a lot of us who have psychotic episodes or similar— it's a— that's my number one thing that I have to watch as someone who, who actually, if I'm not sleeping my 7, 8 hours or whatever, and I do that For 2 days or 3 days. Oh, so you've probably seen a lot of that, especially at these festivals and all that. Yeah, lack of sleep is such a— I mean, we all know about torture and all. That's why it's the number one way to torture somebody.

Oh gosh. Yeah, I mean, that's like, that's the thing. Like, um, I think that we can look at it more like, how do we get our brains and our bodies in a state of balance? And there's many paths to that. And like, for some, like for me, like nutrition is huge. Like, I'll notice my state degrades if I'm not like eating fresh greens, or again, God, sleep is huge. Like you disrupt like one night of sleep for me, and I'm like, I can't, I shouldn't be doing anything the next day because I will just be not at my best. You know which? You know, and and there's also gosh, like I as like someone who is a female-bodied person, like with the way that my hormone cycle goes throughout the month. I'm in an altered state when I'm bleeding. Like, I am not the same person that I am for the rest of, you know, like the rest of the 25 days or whatever.

I know. My wife, my wife has proven that to me now. And, you know, I was thinking, X, you could probably tell us about this and me another time. I was thinking, I must have a hormone sometimes imbalance. I must be like, if I'm so moody, as a— with this bipolar experience, and I can be so easily— I, I must, I must need to pay attention to my own hormone. I would think it would be simple, right? I mean, like—

Totally.

I mean, I need to learn what foods or something affect my actual hormones compared to, compared to the age-old neurotri— oh, it's all the dopamine in my— you know, this is why mental illness is such a stupid— I'm just going to be blunt. These people go to Harvard and MIT and Yale and Berkeley Right? They get PhDs to become psychiatrists, and then they're so stupid that they call it mental illness as if it exists in the brain, when they even have— know now that more neurotransmitters are in your gut, first of all, than in your brain.

Yeah.

And that's why most people who I— they found with mood disorders is based on their nutrition and the microbiome not digesting and processing the, the chemicals. All of this they actually know. to some degree. And even if they didn't, they're just a bunch of— it's just so stupid to call it a mental illness. It's, you know, it's just a dis-ease and it always is whole body or synergistic or whatever way you wanna put it. I mean, Chinese medicine knows this, Ayurveda knows this and all that. It's just, how stupid is it to call it mental illness? As if just because one of the— some of the manifestations, you know, like hearing a voice or seeing something, Or behavior, so it must be. This is because the because scientists don't understand the fundamental nature of reality as consciousness and not matter. I mean, that's a whole can of worms, but it's all indicative of our inverted, inverted. You know, even we see backwards, right? Like images come into the back of our mind upside down. Is Alice in Wonderland? It couldn't be more clear if you look at it how the world is inverted because we see things inverted, and it's the third eye to me is an eye, a self, not an actual eye. It can't be a coincidence. Can't be a coincidence. coincidence that the word eye and E-Y-E are related because of like contraction, you know, like focus and contraction. I know, I'm serious, dude. I have a feeling the third eye thing is an eye, and all the mystery schools are basically throwing a red herring out there so all the people run around in the new paradigm worrying about their pineal gland. I'm like, my pineal gland was lost 25 years ago when I drank too much Mountain Dew, you know, like—

What?

But yet here I am with a really deep imagination. Now, am I psychic like other people that might have a super active pineal? No. You know, like, that to me is cool. That's a gift. But I'm just going off on a rant here because I think it's kind of fun. Because I was thinking, like, I was thinking, you know, I always do a thought experiment, right? Some people might be born without a hand, right? You know, when they come out of the womb. And if I were to say those people can't find God, you know, they can't have the experience of self-realization because they don't have a hand. I would never say that. So I did a thought experiment and I said, what if someone didn't have a pineal gland or it wasn't working right for whatever reason? Are you telling me because of that they don't have access to God consciousness? And when I thought about that, I said, this is the silliest thing I've ever heard. Again, it doesn't mean that activating the pineal doesn't mean you can't You know, maybe I believe that's possible, like that it's related to your psychic abilities and all that. But the tying it to like, you know, enlightenment or realization or being in touch with, with the source or whatever is the biggest fallacy in the world. And I still think the whole third eye thing is like this big, this like crazy big, like they throw it out there so you have to figure out it's not really that.

Oh, see, and when you said that, I Maybe you said this too, correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I saw it as like eye, like, you know, like igloo, like third eye, like, yeah, yeah, third perspective. Yeah, for seeing the world.

Exactly, that's what they mean. I believe that's what— I think that's what they mean. I think the true mystery schools and the true mystic parts of those religions, that the realization is that the third eye is really— is referring to that, and it's not referring to this chakra of psychic ability. I actually think that's, um, you know, in the Eastern religions they call them siddhis, these superpowers like levitation.

Yeah.

And really, when you're, uh, the attainment of moksha in Hindu liberation, they say like, if you have these superpowers, that's awesome, enjoy them, like it's no big deal, but the goal is liberation, not like superpowers, so to say, you know. So I, yeah, I've always found that interesting. And I was, yeah, I was referring to the third eye, like the III. The— it goes beyond the witness even. It's like the thing that you— it's hard to name, that's hard to talk about because it's what we're doing right now. Like, it's what— it's what we are in the moment. That's what I learned from, from psychedelics and, and, and curating my own, as you said, maybe curating my own endogenous psychedelic nature.

Oh gosh, yeah, totally. I mean, you know, And so you mentioned, yeah, like 80% of the serotonin is produced in the gut as like a really clear example of, you know, like it's, it's, you know, and we're just— that's the thing. And I agree with you, like it would be good to have like really immersive, well-documented, like, you know, healing, like media-making containers to like also even just for a month. Like, I think there would be changes in a month of eating super clean, being in a good way with the land, like working your body in a good way, being surrounded in community. Like, amazing transformations of your perspective could happen just from that. And so, yeah, you know, I, I'm in, I'm in huge support. And I, I find that, you know, I am, you know, I describe myself as a healer, essentially, or insofar as like I'm a guide to your own inner healer, as much as I can be. And also a media maker, because it's things that I wish I would have seen 20 years ago, 10 years ago, etc. Like, I wish I would have known about like ecstatic dance and being in a community and being seen in your like authentic, like completely unrestrained movement. And Things like contact improvisation, things like eating sprouts and eating, you know, fermented foods and like natural building, all of these things, you know. And, um, but like specifically, I, I see it missing in the healing realm. And like, as someone who has a really heavy trauma background, like, it's been indispensable for me to like pursue these avenues of healing. And luckily I've stumbled into some. But to have a really like comprehensive, like buffet of things to be aware of, I think would be really helpful. And to see, to see other people going through that transformation process also, you know, because like a great example is like, I'm a survivor of sexual assault and my pattern, my trauma pattern is dissociation. And when I read, when I did a meta-analysis of all of the psychological literature and research into like how to heal that pattern, they were just like, you know, go to talk therapy for the rest of your life and you're probably going to always have PTSD. Like, that is what psychology says at this point. And luckily now there's, you know, somatic psychology like making inroads to like how to heal through the body, but it's super like underdeveloped and underdocumented, I think.

It's fascinating. I mean, when I was in— when I first had my episode, it was 1994, so I couldn't find a transpersonal psychologist. I had to drive an hour and a half just to find one. I was in New Jersey, which is not East Bumblefuck. I mean, it's the East Coast, and it's still— I couldn't, you know, the insurance companies didn't cover biofeedback. They didn't cover acupuncture. I was in a decent middle-class family. I mean, my family could afford, but they didn't. It was harder for them to pay out of pocket for things like, oh, I want to go to an isolation tank, or I want to see this. Like, they could have afforded it, but it was harder for them to just say, okay, we'll pay for that, because they were being told, no, he needs medicine, that's going to make him worse, and no, that's not what he needs. So like you're saying, I wanted— I needed somebody in 1995 like you or me now.

Yeah.

And that's really what motivates me. It's like, it's time to Be able to provide these things. And, you know, it's interesting too, what I thought when you were sharing, it came up for me. Let's say someone has a great month, you know, and really does have, have some transformation. What happens is we send them back in to this, to this context where they're going to go back to working 60 hours a week and having like bills they can't pay and all of these things. And it's like the missing piece. That I've always noticed, because I kind of dropped out after that happened to me, like I've been an observer a lot because I just kind of left the system, so to say, is that— and we all know this, it's really, this is where the regenerative civilization comes in— the context and our systems and our environment is not built for wellness and wholeness. So it's always like, go away, get some help, and then go back to the jungle, you know, go back to the grind. And That's why my mission is to create like this decentralized network of places you're at where we just incubate our own creativity and our own lifestyles instead of trying to fit in in places where we're really not going to fit in, so to say, or we're just like swimming upstream. And we've all done that because there's just nowhere to go, so to say. So we have to become outcasts or misfits and, or really become this American dream. Like we're all entrepreneurs picking up by our bootstraps, which is so old and tired, you know? Like, I've had people tell me, why don't you just monetize your passion? You know, I'm like, why don't you, rich person, help all of us? Because we're here to do something else. It's not like I'm opposed to money. I'm just saying they've got this thing where everyone in America is supposed to learn how to do all these things and, and be the millionaire rather than, well, you're good at making money, it seems like. Like, that's your actual specialty. Because that's become a specialty because it's all about competition and fitting in and conforming and figuring stuff out and playing the game. Nothing I'm really angry about, but it's kind of like a specialty. And if you don't crack that specialty, you're kind of like behind the 8-ball in the world of resources and having what you need to build these new things, which is why it's been so difficult for a lot of us to deliver. I think we actually have the solutions. You know, X, I kind of laugh. A lot of people say we don't know what the solutions are, like we need to be in emergence, we have to find out what they are. And I'm like, I don't know, I've been in R&D for 8 years and people, a lot of people for longer, and we know. The, the basis of co-creation does include a lot of uncertainty and emergence. We know we don't have every single answer to every single degree, but I wouldn't go as far as to say we have no idea what's next and what's going to be fun and good for us. Like, uh, no, I think we actually do have a good idea. It's called like the regenescence. It's called like permaculture, 3D printing, like whole people healing, creativity, fun. Time is art, you know, like follow your bliss. Like, we actually kind of do have a good idea. Of, of the clear direction. Of course, we don't know all the different things that will happen, but I think we have a clear direction. In many ways, we kind of do know what's coming, especially as visionaries, all of us. We kind of like— that's our job.

Yeah.

Our job is to know what the universe is intending to do and to be aligned with that. And that's why— that's where it becomes less friction, you know, more effortless.

Yeah, I totally resonate with that. Like, and I'm realizing, I think I'm like a healing visionary or like a return to psychic wellness visionary insofar as like, I needed to do that just to survive myself.

Yes.

And so now, like, I have, you know, some really solid building blocks that are helpful to a lot of people that I encounter. And, you know, obviously that's why you give them the buffet, because there's certain things that will fit for them in any particular, like, lifestyle at any particular point in time. But, you know, I think that we do have— we all, like, through our own— I, and I use the term healing just because that's, like, my metaphor— but through our own, like, healing journeys, we have found tools. And now, like, may they be seen so that others can, you know, come together around them and to share in that knowledge and wisdom.

What's this saying? Necessity is the mother of invention. Yeah, is that is that the saying? Because I always I always think of that. Like for me, I created this thing for myself called spiritual philanthropy. You know, like ten years ago, I was so hurt, really frustrated and hurt that I couldn't get a job. Like because of my mental health stuff, like I never had a regular job and it kept perpetuating itself. So I always had to talk my way into any opportunity because I couldn't say, "Well, look at my resume." I used to work at this. Law firm, or I used to do this, or I'm a carpenter. So I couldn't—

I—

and then it just kept— it's like— and, and this is systemic, like, mental health kind of stuff and oppression and, and storytelling. So it's like, I— it just kept going worse and worse. And, and then I'm 30, and it's like I have no anchor into the world as it is. And I'm like wounded and frustrated. I'm like, I'm so creative and smart and caring, like, why can't someone You know, give me a million dollars to build a healing center and invest me, or philanthropy. Like, why can't— why, why is this happening? So it's like I had to create a story for myself, you know, my own solution, which I called spiritual philanthropy, which wasn't just about money. But I always look back at that and think that's because of necessity. Like, I needed to heal my own shadow and victim— my victimhood around this money thing and resources. So it's— I've— if I've learned anything, because I'm sure you probably resonate, is we teach what we have to learn. It's the simple— it seems to be the most simple. Yeah, how many people do you know who talk about living in the now who are the worst, the people that know living in the now? I had an ex-partner who played that game.

Oh gosh, it's so true. I feel whenever anyone says that, I'm like, oh, I feel so vulnerable and seen right now. Okay, it's okay, it's okay.

Absolutely. Oh, this is so good. Thanks for spending time on this subject. Hey, by the way, just because we're live and there might be people out there, and I wanted to ask you, so why not do it live? Um, why not, right? Do it live. So, so I met these, these 2 women out of Canada. They're both moms, and for whatever synchronous reasons, we came together on the subject of reimagining mental health and addiction. Um, and we put together this thing called A Call to the Mothers. And mothers in this situation is not women, it's the idea of nourishment, Mother Earth, unconditional love. So anybody can be a mother in that sense, any brother, sister, father, husband. And one of the moms, Hillary, has this process she calls— this is, this is going to be exciting— it's called the Taste of Wonderland. So she uses Alice in Wonderland, and we just did a prototype conversation last week And there's 4 stages. The first one is, what are the cracks in the system that you've noticed of mental health and addiction? 2 is the grieving. Like, what do you feel hurt by? What do you need to let go of in order to move on? 3 is like, what are the possibilities out there? So everything you named, from equine therapy to tai chi to VR to everything that could be. And the 4th one is you take pieces of each of those things, the crack, the grieving, and the new possibility, you throw them into the Mad Hatter's pot and you come up with a strange brew. So it's like, okay, so there's this problem, this grieving, and this solution. What would it look like? And we did this awesome prototype conversation. And then I was like, oh my God, I've just met all these people in the Design Science Studio because we did it 2 and a half hours. So it was not enough time. We used like Jamboree and we used Post-its for the process. And I was like, wait till we do this in person, like on the weekends. Like, wait till we add the VR, like you're saying, and make it an immersive experience. So I just wanted to invite you at some point to try one of these prototypes, just conversations with us, because we're looking for friends to improve the actual process. And it was— it's— you can't lose because you're sharing your life story and all that. So everyone out there is listening, if you're into mental health and addiction transformation, like, look me up. And, and this is another piece of the puzzle, you know. Like, to turn mental health and addiction reimagination, this is how we're going to do it. I'm so glad we met, X, because I feel so connected to you, and I see you, and I see your passion and your skills and your heart. And it's like, I'm just really happy and looking forward to the next 10 years of basically making that inversion and actually putting— I'll say it here in public. I mean, maybe the men in the black suits will come knocking on my door, but— You know, the goal is to make pharmaceutical companies obsolete. In my, in my opinion, that's the goal. Again, it's not really to fight them or to say there's something wrong with it. I know some people do well on lithium and, and anticonvulsants and all these things, so more power to you. But in the back of my mind, business was meant to go out of business by the very nature of its actual— what it does, right? Businesses go out of business, so why wouldn't business as a concept go out of business? I mean, it's— well, it's common sense, right? I mean, it's actually common sense. It's actually a self-fulfilling— like, it's the nature of business to go out of business, even on the macro level. Capitalism has a sell-by date. I mean, look at it. And it's— again, it's because we're going to provide something better. So the key, the key thing is here is not because we're all gonna devolve, you know, into some weird only tribal thing where we're all like in factions and we're bartering things. No, we're going to come up with way, way better alternatives to go beyond transaction and all this stuff. So I'm super excited. I really— I love you. I love you, and I appreciate you.

I love you too. I love your, your way of walking in the world, and so grateful that our, our streams have merged in this beautiful design science studio for the Regenera decade of the Regenescence.

I wanted to ask you one more question. We really should end it there because it's such a good note, but I still— well, we'll pick it up next time. Tell me briefly why you choose to say altered states of mind compared to altered states of consciousness.

You know, I use different terminology depending, but I guess, um, You know, I kind of see— oh gosh, it, it's just like, for me, I would say like the mind is what— like when we're saying— when we as humanimals are saying consciousness, we actually mean mind.

Yes.

Like it's a little— it's more precise technically because the way in which we— our default experience of consciousness is through mind. But I will say, I, I think that I have had experiences where that isn't the case. So like, I, I just think it's a, it's a distinction in that way. I'd love to hear your response too, because you had a really strong reaction to that.

Yeah, thank you for sharing. Well, I'm a, I'm a big fan of like what would be called like non-duality or the non-dual path. And I've been really diving back in this year and really like shedding some old dogma, my own dogma, and reviving. Even, you know, regeneration, by the way, one of the definitions of regeneration is spiritual renewal and revival. I was really happy when I saw that, like a dictionary definition, but nonetheless, revival, renewal. So I'm having a little bit of a spiritual revival in my own path. of enlightenment or liberation, whatever you want to call self-realization, etc. Robin, Robin, say something. Yeah, one second, one second, Dan. We're just going to finish this thought and then I'll bring you in. So the answer is, from my perspective, consciousness— when I say consciousness, I mean awareness, like the very fact that I can say I'm here. And if I asked you, Are you aware? You would probably say yes. Like, whatever that light or that thing that even allows us to have experiences is, that's the thing I call consciousness or knowing or awareness. And that to me is fundamental. And there's actually nothing— there is nothing actually else. Everything else would be an appearance in consciousness, of consciousness, made of consciousness. So for me, the mind is kind of like— A story we tell that is like when the infinite eternal consciousness, which is everywhere all the time, it is what we are, needs to like have an experience of itself. It kind of contracts into like this point, which is what we would call a mind that's in a body that can then become a subject to have an objective experience. So you can only have altered states of mind to me because of perception and senses. You can't— consciousness doesn't change. That's why it's consciousness. It's eternal and infinite. It actually doesn't move or change. It's everywhere. It's complete love. It knows itself. So I'm really— so yeah, I'm into that whole thing. So that's why I personally would say it's more accurate, like you're saying, that we have altered states of mind slash personality slash whatever more than an altered state of consciousness because we don't yet understand what the ancients knew. for 20,000 years, which is consciousness is fundamental and matter is not what we think it is. That's why they call it an illusion. It's not unreal. An illusion is not what it appears to be, not that it's something is not there, which is again, from the psychedelic experience, we learned this a lot. The difference between unreal and illusion is, you know, everything is real, so to say, but it's not always what it appears to be. So, so yeah, I'm really, I'm really into bringing non-duality Embodied. I think that's the shift anyway that the civilization is going through, you know, because that's the oneness type of vibe. We all share that one thing. We all call ourselves I. If you've ever noticed, no matter what your birth name is, when you refer to yourself, you always say I. No matter what language or culture, everyone is an I. And the I is, again, back to the I, right? The I is the beholder. I is the beauty of the beholder. It's like, it's all in our language. So—

So—