The Metta Futurist Playcast Series: "Born To Be Transmedium" Co-Pilot Episode w/Chris & Bretminster

I personally really enjoy listening to the insights and things that come out of them. No pressure or anything, but I do like a podcast where these days there's enough podcasting, enough podcast episodes that I like go on a walk and I listen to myself talk and I go, wow, this guy's really insightful. You know, like, you get so much more out of it, unpack it in layers and whatnot, because, you know, we're the universe or whatever speaking through us, and in the moment, the self is not understanding the full context of what is being said. It's just kind of delivering the message, and then later you get to receive the message.

So, um, well, it's, it's funny because, um, I just hit record now, by the way. So Um, so it— what's funny was I was talking to my friend Jeannie earlier.

Yeah.

Well, well, the first, the first thing is I, I've been wanting to do podcasts in general.

Yeah.

Just because it's like what I'm good at.

Yeah.

I like to talk. I like to hear people's story, you know. And I was struggling with that whole thing and I'm like, I need to do this. So based on the good responses from the Beaming Regenera and all that, I was like, Yeah, I've gotta come up with something, and I had a bunch of good ideas that I like anyway, you know, that make me happy creatively. So I, so I had a call this morning with my friend Jeannie, and right when we came on, which I wanted to do to you, but my thing got ruined. So, so basically, as soon as I came on with her this morning, I— as soon as she came on, I was like, welcome to the Bretton Woods Playcast, like, today's guest is— and I wanted to just, I wanted to just spring it on you. Um, And then, yeah, that's funny.

That's so funny. No, no, no, it's all good. And I kind of felt that was the case because I feel like, you know, a few, a few things. One is like the more that we embed wholeness in the media that we create, which happens when we just turn a camera on and say, all right, make it happen, um, the better it is. The more stronger the signal is, the more other people hear it. the more potential it is to create that. And also, I feel like this right now is like kind of what people will watch when they're like, uh, you know, not to get egoic about it, but like when there's some amazing movement that happened and people are like, oh wow, the people who are the original people in Silicon Valley before Silicon Valley was Silicon Valley, like I wish we had conversations with them recorded.

Right?

I wish we had architects of the future's recorded conversations before it had happened, right? So I kind of get that sense because, you know, it's interesting. I really love this framing. So I wrote this, and I think I shared it with you many months ago, this, this idea of the story of tomorrow. And it's basically that, like, stories are the— they are the things that unite us, and they're the things that bring about change. It comes, it comes as a story first, and then like all the pieces, the systems, the people organize to make it a reality. And so therefore you can say that science fiction is actually science fact on a long enough timeline or a parallel enough dimension, right? And so if we utilize that consciously and say, okay, what kind of world do we want to live in, and now let's start telling the story of it now, and let's just start talking about it. And then eventually people start writing about it, making images about it, slide decks, convincing people, coming up with business pitches that align with it, etc. And then it will start becoming reality because then the systems will incentivize more people who are not necessarily on that wavelength yet, but now they see, oh, this system is way better than that system and it's way more aligned, and now I'm starting to feel like I'm remembering my power, etc. And it becomes this virtual cycle. So I wrote this down and I knew that it wasn't my idea, but I, because I am a self, I was like, I guess it's my job to convince everyone that this is happening. And then I saw what you guys are doing with RegenAir and I was like, oh yeah, so that, but that is like way more robust and developed version of what I was, I was just saying like, this is the concept. And now clearly it's already becoming a thing and Either you or them or everybody is thinking like 2030 is this date because it's like, it feels like it's this date that's believable enough that the amount of change that anyone desires could actually happen. Now, time doesn't exist, so technically it could happen now or tomorrow or the next day, but I don't think that's the journey we're on. I don't think it's necessarily the most delicious version of the journey. Because in 10 years a lot can happen, a lot of really exciting stuff. I mean, I'm talking to, um, Dave Smith, uh, your, your friend who I met on one of those, uh, Beamcasts, and he wants to create an open protocol for interfacing and mapping, uh, ecology with the digital world. So every tree gets a unique identifier, and then those trees, you know, go up in value just like an NFT would or whatever. Like there's an economy to it, but the economy is built from wholeness, not extraction principles. And he wants to create a protocol like HTTP or something that's that ubiquitous, because if there's not, then people who are privately owned, who have the desire to control and own that piece of digital territory, will do so. And then that philosophy won't be embedded in the system. And that's the thing, is for us to live in such a reality Uh, our wholeness, our knowledge that we are the universe and that we are perfect as we are, must be— maybe not must be, but embedded in the systems that we operate in. It can't be like we have to try to get to this place by creating this system, because then that system is coming from a place of lack. We need to kill this person so we can have our way and our philosophy.

Right?

And so that means that the systems designers of the world hopefully are having this awakening process of like, how can we live in a more equitable, empowered world for all people and building systems that actually reflect that? I think money, the, uh, the idea of currency is one of the biggest, uh, quote unquote battlegrounds or mediums for that philosophical design competition to take place. Because when you think about it, right, when you think about how could we restructure the economy such that it would empower all people, it's hard to do that because the economy that we've grown up in is a box that is on the exploitation of labor, right? It's like hard to get outside the philosophy, at least for me. Maybe you have more access to different ways of organizing resources that are already equitable and shareable, and it's really just about scaling that understanding and its use in systems. For me, I don't necessarily— I just know that's where it's going because I've always been able to see, see or feel the future, like where the trends are going. So I'm like, an empowered world means that these systems must act this way. This is the dynamics of them, but I don't know how they would actually work. And so I'm so excited. I'm just kind of spitballing. I'm just so excited to be in conversation about this. My intention for this conversation is to figure out, maybe not all the way, but to start the conversation of where I kind of fit in this vision, what you're doing, Regenera, etc., because I always wanted to make films. I don't even know what filmmaking even looks like in the future in a world of all immersive VR technology. Um, it's more like you said, story living, not storytelling. Uh, but what is the framework for even like creating that? I'm not sure, but it's interesting, the idea of thinking about it. I've always wanted to do that. I've always, as a— even as a kid, I was like, I'm gonna be like Steven Spielberg, or, you know, I'm gonna be making these big events that people, lots of people are gonna watch, and it's gonna infuse in popular consciousness, and it's gonna trans— And then later I was like, and transform people. So it's like, imagine watching the movie Star Wars where at the end you now know the Force is real and how it works and how to use it, basically. As opposed to saying, oh, that would be great if that was my life, but instead it's separate. It's this imaginary fictional thing that doesn't affect me. Meanwhile, I'm going to go pay my taxes and be disempowered, etc. So that's what I want. Uh, because I am also in this kind of deep dive moment of figuring out my own purpose in the world. I know my purpose is to help empower myself and therefore empower others, because it's a fractal universe, it's holographic, so therefore one equals the other, right? And I've heard you say that too, like the most radical thing we can do is steer towards our own self-empowerment and kind of like— Because the world needs more woken up people, not for you to solve their problems, right? Um, so I know that's the case, and I don't know what the particulars or details of that are. And then I see what you guys are doing, and I'm like— like I said, the egoic side of me is like, oh, like, I didn't do that, you know? And on the other hand, I'm like, yeah, okay, but that means that the universe has something even better in store for me. Like, my— that was that model. was just so that I could recognize it when it happened, so that I could get ready for the thing that I'm really, quote, supposed to do, whatever that means. And I don't necessarily think it's one thing because I have a lot of different random skills. I'm kind of like you in that I'm like in this a lot of different areas. I feel like you and I have a lot of, um, a lot of similarities. We also struggled with mental health. Like, I struggled with clinical depression since I was 15, 16. Um, and I, and I was very— I excelled a lot at a young age. I like slammed into a brick wall of reality after school, and then I had to like basically learn how to be in the world from the ground up. Also learn how to manage my depression. Um, I always read a lot of books. Those didn't really work, so then I got into energy work. Um, and at the same time, gamification, which is a very like— it is a very left-brain thing, but also a very right-brain, empathic, human-focused thing when you do it well. And so it's just kind of like these things have been falling into place till now that there's like all these moving parts that could operate in a certain way to reveal something incredible. And so that's what I'm excited to do, you know, with you and other co-creators is like reveal what is the thing. Because I feel like you've I have to be honest that when I read what you were writing about a few months ago, I was like, this feels almost too— it's not that it's too fantastical, it just feels like it's like you use guerrilla ontology as your main philosophy for communicating with people, right? Not communicating, but communicating ideas. It's like, just shock them with so many new things that they just kind of have to like surrender to it and their brain opens. And for me, that didn't work. For me, I was like, I'm just pinging off of this. But then when I heard you talk in a podcast or in a, in an interview session, I was like, oh, everything makes sense. You articulate things kind of in the same way, pulling across a lot of different disciplines and always going back to the— it's about heart-centered consciousness expansion. Um, but in a practical way, like, how are we going to do this? Because I don't want to fucking live in this world anymore that's so disempowering for all these people when we don't need to. It's all arbitrary, right? And this is not what we even want, and it's not what we came here to do. For the longest time, when I woke— before I woke up, or when I woke up, so to speak, like the moment where I became aware that more was going on, it's like waking up into a dream where no one else believes it's a dream, just you. And you're like, it's a dream! And people are like, yeah, uh, go back to flipping burgers, right? And you're like, okay. And you just keep your head down, and then I guess I'll try not to be feel like I'm crazy. And then I had a really amazing event last year. It was called the Healing House, which, uh, was run by, uh, Steve, um, who I'm not sure if you've actually met in person, but I think I met you through him on Facebook. So, um, yeah. And that was incredible because what it was is it really was like, no, all of this has been in perfect timing. You were in a life of struggle. Now this is a life of play. Like, you are now— this is their transition from one to the other, and this is what it's going to be to be empowered. And everything that you learned and banged your head against the wall and all those books you read now mean that you get to articulate this in a way that no one else can, right? Not that no one else can do it, a similar job, but no one else can use your words to articulate what is happening. And that's awesome because I actually just really enjoy that, which in many ways is kind of what the process of The podcast interview thing is, is articulating, you know, what is happening for those who don't have those skills and it helps give them clarity.

Right.

And also gives yourself clarity. It's like I said earlier, when I listen to my own podcast, I'm like, oh yeah. Like I get more clarity listening to it later. Right. Because again, it's not about what we are doing. It's about tapping into that frequency and just like letting the information. come through the vessel that is self. So I know I covered like a million things there, but those are all the kind of like initial thoughts that I've had since kind of deep diving on your stuff in the past week or so, and a couple months I guess before that.

Awesome. So there you have it. Well, there you have it, the opening soliloquy of the, of the Christopher Tommaso, our Britney Spears full of it play cast of science fiction. The real story behind the making of Togetherland. That's what our podcast potentially could be. And I want to get into all that, the filmmaking, what does it look like, the immersiveness. So like, let's— So basically, just as a side note, right, with the podcast, I always wanted to make buddy movies. You know, like 48 Hours.

Yeah.

Harold and Kumar Go to White House— I mean, White Castle. Like, right, you've got that whole genre of buddy movies.

Yeah, yeah.

And until I get— until I get like my cameras and all that kind of good stuff, and I'm like— like you're saying, like I've got the Steven Spielberg outfit and everything I need, I was like— I was like, I'm gonna do these podcasts under the flag of one thing called the Meta Futurists, which is M-E-T-T-A.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is a prayer for unconditional love, for anyone listening. N-E-T-T-A. It's a Sanskrit or Polynesian word.

Yeah.

So I was like, I'm gonna have that flag, and then I want to do all these different podcasts with co-hosts, and they'll have a different flavor, you know, and a different geometry and a different set of things. So I've got the one with my friend Jean Genie. Well, Genie, but we like David Bowie, so she's Jean Genie. And then I've got with Jay who played the game, you know, that night. That one is one of my favorite titles because it's Jay and Not So Silent Bret instead of Jay and Silent Bob because I'm a big fan of Kevin Smith's. Yeah, so I'm looking for— not that this has to be that, but I'm just— I'm going to keep keeping my eye out. I'm just going to have all these different conversations that I have.

Yeah.

Specific people and whatever our flow is, is that Playcast. And I'm saying Playcast because I'm going with— Togetherland is a conscious living play, and I like the idea of a play of drama and playing the infinite game and blah blah blah. Um, yeah, and of course, because, you know, like, like you said, I like new words and I would be bored if I did a podcast, so I need to do a playcast.

Yeah.

And, and I really had a great time on this past Friday doing the game live, you know, with the music.

Yeah, that was great.

That was just— it was a real peek for me behind the curtain of one tiny little thing that we could take a whole way if we wanted to. We could literally start a business, conscious business of, you know, facilitating any kind of gathering, meeting online on Zoom with Jay and create our own deck. We could take that literally to the end of time if we wanted to. But, um, right. That was just fun for me. So it gave me a real kind of boost of like, this is what I— like you said, we all like to do a lot of things. I'm certainly— we're all Renaissance people, but that's like really my fast lane. Like, I was like, this is creative, it's live, there's improvisation, there's the— there's a liveness of things can happen, and we're talking, we're sharing, like, and ultimately as well, we're actually co-creating. Like, that wasn't a one-off for me. Like, I got information about this Existential Prize and the NFTs and all that.

Right.

And I'm really into what you're saying. Like, if I'm going to think as a story liver and an artist and a storyteller and a historian, And at the same time, right? And a strategist and all that, right? Then to me, this is— and it's not, it's not— there's a little ego because ego's fun and nice, like, I'm not gonna lie, like, I'm sure it's there. But yeah, I also agree with you, like, this is the kind of stuff that is most important to go with these NFTs. It's not about, like, the most amazing painting or the most amazing person at saying the most amazing thing. But these NFTs, because they have these multiple layers of information, it's like, you know, one of the game cards will have this conversation as part of it and it will tell a story. And it's like you're saying, if we have anything to say about it 10 years from now, this conversation itself will be a collectible, not because we're special, but because we set out to do something that was incredible, ambitious, and heart-centered. And because we care about life.

Yeah.

And it will be an awesome, like, cool collectible. Or not even collectible. I just— it'll be a part of the story.

Yeah.

Um, so that's, that's what I'm— yeah, I mean, why not? Like, that's, that's what we're doing. And a lot of people are obviously upset with or skeptical about NFTs because of the energy consumption. And there's a lot of misinformation about that, by the way, and I can't make sense of it right now. I'm gonna have a whole Playcast where we have experts because it's— there's actually— there's dogma on all sides. It doesn't just work with like like, like mainstream people. Like, there's enough dogma in the new paradigm, the New Age, to go around, you know? So like, somebody read— somebody reads an article like NFTs are draining all of our electricity as much as New Zealand. I'm like— and that's the, that's the standard line. They didn't do any research, they didn't talk to anybody.

Yeah.

Like, someone said it on Facebook, it must be true. I don't really know if it's true, but I also know there's something like Holochain coming online which will destroy Yeah. That conversation, because Holochain doesn't work like that. It is ecologically beneficial, and it's a whole different paradigm for distributed ledger technology.

Yeah.

And it's going to obsolete Ethereum and Bitcoin and EOS. You can say— you can, you can take that to the bank.

Yeah.

Like, everyone, like, it just, it just has to keep going the way—

Yeah.

Like, the way it's meant to be going and with its intentions, and it's getting closer and closer.

Yeah.

And it's going to be a big deal. And then when we all start building our version of NFTs on Holochain and having these cross-platform things, then slowly, slowly, eventually I believe it will dominate that market because it's actually like, you know, it just, it is what it is. I mean—

Yeah, I think NFT is like a hard technological problem to solve, and that's different than the philosophical problem. I think NFTs are the right philosophical direction. You talk about Holochain or other technologies that supplant it. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the problem is people are saying, oh, because there's a technological problem, we have to get rid of the philosophical nature of it. But people, forward thinkers like ourselves, are like, no, no, no, this is where it's going. Like, you're not going to be in a world where you have cash money and that's the only way that you can track it is one physical object. Like, it's gonna— we're gonna be in a fully interconnected technological world. where everything will be tracked. And so are we gonna— again, are we gonna track it in a district? Is it gonna be decentralized or is it gonna be centralized? Because we know where centralized goes, it goes to our current reality. So I, I really think that the virtual space— and if you think of the virtual space as one more dimension, which it may not be eventually, maybe multiple dimensions beyond that— but currently, if there's a virtual space that's one dimension, I feel like we get one chance really to reset our— the philosophy of living based on these structures that hold up our society. This is so we can have no longer systemic inequality, we can have systemic equality, or at least systemic opportunity, systemic equity. Those words are a little bit different, they mean different things, but heading towards that. And that may be my limited perspective, I may be overdramatizing it, like we get one chance, we only have this much time. But I also think that Humans respond to that kind of rhetoric, and that kind of thinking catalyzes action now, which is really what is happening, is action is happening now because everybody involved in their various sectors of society who are waking up to this, this shared vision, this collective vision, feel that urgency. It's like it needs to happen now. Like, if you believe in climate change, you believe we have 10 years before other disaster strikes. Right? And so if you really believe in that, then you're like working night and day trying to figure it out. And yet at the same time, it's all good. It's interesting to operate in that dichotomy of like, it's a ride, it's already happened. Because depending on your view of time, it's already happened, because otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. We're not inventing it, it's already happened. But it's helpful to say we're inventing it because it gives us more agency and more ability to play A and B are egoic selves. And for those who don't believe that time doesn't exist, they believe in the sovereignty of time, that they can get on board with that idea. That's why I think it's such a genius concept to say like, this is the story, quote unquote, that we're, that we're making, and now we get to play our parts in it. But it's gonna— it's helpful for me to think, it's helpful for me to think that it's gonna basically happen Uh, whether we like it or not. So I don't have to worry about me doing the things that I need to do in order to make it happen. It's not conditional upon me, the self, or any selves specifically.

Yeah, a lot of juice, a lot of juicy stuff there. I'll just take one step back before reflecting on that, which is the other side of the— the other side of the NFT equation with this whole energy thing is people are also not considering the fact there's other innovations Coming online that could procure and produce and provide nearly limitless, clean, safe energy. So really, is it a problem if a blockchain takes as much energy as New Zealand? Well, only if we can't create new innovations that provide energy. But from where I'm standing and the people I've spoken to and the people I've witnessed, even on my— like you're saying, on my tiny spectrum of what I can could be capable of understanding or being aware of, knowing that I don't know a lot. Even under those conditions, I've seen and heard and—

Right.

And feel confident enough that we— all those things will be resolved in this process you're talking about, or they won't, and we're all going to die and start over. Like, for me, it's, it's quite, it's quite clear. Like, we're either gonna come together and have this evolutionary leap in in through as consciousness, or we'll probably get wiped out, and then 14 billion years will come along again and we'll be back, and you and I will probably be having the same conversation, maybe with a slightly different facial hair or something like that. So, so I'm a very big— I'm very— I don't think the blockchain is going to be the reason for humanity's demise. Like, I mean, I'm much more philosophical and existential and spiritual about my perspective on that. Like, you're Like you're alluding to, and it is my experience personally just to put it out there, which I've said on other playcasts at this point now, that there is something. I think the word is teleos or teleos T E L E O S, which is this idea of like purpose. Like does the universe have a tele a teleos? I forgot the Greek origins of that, but I personally do feel that whatever the word is, life, the universe. existence, God, it doesn't matter to me so much, does want to have a certain type of experience that has qualities like creativity and fun and peace and prosperity. All the, like, people having a chance to relax and find themselves. And that, as you know, Bucky Fuller said, there's a crazy notion that we have to earn a living. We have the technologies. And when we say technologies, again, we have spiritual, emotional, mental, physical. We have all these different technologies.

Sure.

Where one person could create something.

Yeah.

I mean, Bucky said this 50 years ago. I wish I could, you know, I had a photographic memory, but the quote is something like, we're at a stage now where one person can create an invention that can support millions or billions of people in resolving an issue. This is why, right, as you've alluded to, I believe in myself. And when I say myself, I don't really just mean me. I mean myself, I mean the representation of hope and optimism and not naivete to the point of not having any wisdom or insight. Like, I've been doing this for 8 years. There's people who've been doing it for 40 years. I believe we can actually— that's what Together: Land stands for. It stands for, like, doing the experiment to prove that we can do this. Right. And what else is there to do anyway? I mean, I'm going to go down the plane, like, with the climate change. Like, let's— I'm I'm gonna go down swinging, as they say, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're at that point, like, I'm gonna go down swinging, and that's my swinging. That's my home run. Like you said, the one chance. I kind of like that one chance in terms of— since we love movies so much, I bet you we have similar— a similar, like, you know, Raiders of the Lost Ark and Star Wars and E.T. And then, like, later on for me, Forrest Gump and Fight Club and The Matrix were like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, like Movies like that were important for me. So, and Rocky. So I believe we are at the 12th round, the midnight hour. It's Cinderella time. And like, I don't think it's the end of existence, but it's getting close to like, we're going to save— we're going to knock Mr. T out in the last second. Or it's like a new movie, which is like Mad Max or whatever, you know?

Right, right.

I'm not really— I'm not really into Mad Max as much as like— I mean, it's fun, but I don't really want to Uh, live in that movie.

Yeah.

So, so, so I'm totally on the same page with you, and I'm excited to have a, a new good buddy to like talk about.

Heck yeah.

Filmmaking, you know, what is this— like, I called it regenerative filmmaking on my website.

Yeah.

I want to share a little bit more about, to have a conversation about in general, but I'm super excited to have someone to— well, as Jay says, to game storm. instead of brainstorm. So yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll pop some cards in here. And if I knew how to edit video, when you talked about, um, the one last chance, I'd pop in a little bit of Eminem, you know, singing the 8 Mile song or something.

But, uh, I think you easily could find an editor who's like on, on the wavelength and wants to remix these videos into entertainment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's just the right person in the right space at the right time. I have the skills to do video editing, but it's not, as you say, my fast lane. My fast lane is like someone else creates the apparatus and I just show up and just start talking. I feel like it's similar with you. Like, you're like, all right, cool, all the stuff is here, time to just like, let's go, let's go.

We could be the Cisco and Uber of Of Togetherland, of the immersive interactive planetary-scale gamification, playification, manifestation. We could actually do the Cisco Niebuhr reviewing all of the manifestations.

Yeah, it'd be like, NFTs?

No.

For those of you listening, I thumbs up and thumbs down, in case it matters, to describe that.

Oh, man. That's funny.

Totally. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to dive into the filmmaking thing because I think that's a really fascinating world to open up. Like, what is the— so, so I would say the thread, the immediate, the immediate reaction, and what I wanted to tell you before kind of this most recent upleveling of energy, so to speak, about it, um, was that I feel like there is space here to create a bridge between this world and Togetherland. Because like I said, your approach is like, no, it's immersive, right? You just jump in and it's all different words. It's beam— it's backcasting, it's beam casting, it's togetherland, it's story living, it's regenerative filmmaking, it's infinite reality games, right? There's all this vocabulary. And as we know from— I'll use a really, really controversial example— QAnon. That when you create an inner world with vocabulary, it becomes sticky. People start to imagine it, start to feel the parameters of the world, start to recreate it, right? You have a certain amount of specificity in these vocabularies, and like, this is the playground to come play. And they have a certain amount of vagueness, which is, you know, what do you think about blah blah blah? Or when you see extremely vague symbol, you should think this. Right. It's all very, very well designed. And so I think there's room to create the bridge between here and there. And I feel like, like I said, I think your podcast interview stuff is more like that. It's bringing people from where they are to where you are, or like how to think about it. Because this is a lot about frame changing, right? Words are really powerful. I've been learning about how powerful words are and that the English language is actually one of the most disempowering languages there is because there's very few truly empowering verbs and there's very few ways to cognate them that are empowering. So if you say, in the future I'm gonna do this thing, you're already making that thing like impossibly out in front of you instead of saying, now I am doing this thing, right now I am experiencing this thing. And so, so one phrase that I use is like, from the Lord God of my being, I now um, feel harmony, or I now know harmony, or now I now receive it or create it, right? There's like 5 verbs. It's like create, receive, uh, reveal is a big one. So I have a podcast called Reveal the Game of Life where that, that was the whole point of it, is like, wait, we don't want to create the game of life, we don't want to receive it, we want to reveal it. We want to reveal its nowness. And the reason why is because you're trying to— because time doesn't exist. If you get that internally and start thinking that I no longer need to use time as a medium for creation, then stuff can happen instantly. Not only can it happen instantly, it can have always been happening. We can get into a conversation where we recognize, wow, you and I have similar skill sets that led us to this point of all of our experiences, and now it's perfect, right? And more and more experiences like that are happening to me where I'm just in a conversation with someone, I'm like, you're the perfect person, or they're like, you have the perfect skill that you didn't think you were gonna have because when you were learning that skill, it didn't seem meaningful at all. And so as you change the future, you also change the past because the time doesn't exist. So I don't remember why I was saying that, but I like that you're changing words because it changes meaning and it causes people to deconstruct meaning from words. Words hold up the stories and myths of our society. I was just reading— I'm reading right now the book Sapiens. Have you read it?

No. No.

Okay, so what's really amazing about it is it says what's the difference between Homo sapiens and Homo anything else, right? The Neanderthals, the Homo erectus, etc., is our— is not strength, it's not some, you know, social ability, it's actually our ability to create fictional narratives in our minds and share them. That's what change— that's the difference, because that's what laws are, that's what nation-states are, that's what gender constructs are, that's what all these things, right? And these are all controversial things to say, but if you think about it from a biological perspective, it's all the same mechanism, which is our ability to create and experience and share something that doesn't— a lens on reality that isn't objectively true. I say in major quotes. Um, that I feel— and I feel like reading that right now is I'm like, oh yeah, this is the path. The path is creating the story of tomorrow in whatever way that looks. That's, that's what gives everyone equal ability, access, agency to do what they love and create the world that we all share. I feel like— but, but spiritually, I think that it's Obviously, it's not you or my vision, because one person can't do it alone. They can't. There's no way. There's— what we're talking about, remaking society from the ground up, every single system different, all at the same time. There's no way that we could cooperate on that scale without the ability to create a shared vision.

I think the trap I think the trapdoor in the stage there for us is that— this is a long conversation, so I'll just keep it light for now, and then maybe in the future we'll bring it or we'll weave it in. I think the trapdoor for that is that we're not humans, really.

Right.

Like, that's an abstract— that's an abstraction.

Right.

So there's no humans that have to— it's not— it isn't up to any one human to do it. I think this is why this— I mean, this does go along with your, your passion for time, you know, non-existent. I'm, I'm highly into like the non-dual traditions, right, where, where we're looking at basically the dominant world culture is that consciousness is a thing that has miraculously emerged from insentient matter over billions of years and is an epic phenomenon.

That's right.

Of the brain, right? This is what scientists think. This is like the standard line. And quite frankly, I believe, as— and again, it's not I so much, and it's not really a new thought personally. I just happen to be of that particular leaning.

Yeah.

That actually consciousness is the fundamental nature of reality, and our minds and our bodies are, are within consciousness, not the other way around.

Right.

Which explains, which explains that really the qualities or nature of that awareness, of that consciousness, is eternal and infinite. Which also explains why when we perceive ourselves as a separate self or as a localized mind, we take eternity and we, we narrow it down and we call it time.

Right.

We take infinity, we narrow it down, and it looks like space. So it looks like space and time only when We're perceiving from the limited illusory self. Now, again, illusory doesn't mean unreal. It means not what it appears to be. So I'm not saying we're not real and I'm not here talking to you. What I'm saying is most of us have come to believe what is not exactly what it appears to be, which is we think we're body-minds and we're humans when we're actually consciousness itself.

Yeah.

Having the experience of sensations and thoughts, and then that separate self thinks it's a thing when it's actually technically not, so to say.

Yeah.

Um, but it gives us— what it does is it gives us that creative agency, creative agency to be able to have the experience that we want, which is actually the definition of magic, M-A-G-I-C-K. They came out of the 20th century, like mystery schools, this idea of the art and science of conforming reality to our will. And, and when I say will, I don't mean like, like selfish will. I mean to our higher self, like our, our, our destiny, our evolutionary impulse, and all that kind of fancy words, fancy words and jargon. But, but, um, I lost my train of thought. Why was I talking about—

Talking about magic and intention and will. And, uh, before that, the self is, uh, localizing space and time. Consciousness is existing inside of reality. I'm just backing up your thought process.

I'm actually— I'm actually— it's funny, I'm actually— one of the, one of the gifts to me of the bipolar experience— I call it the bipolar experience rather than an illness or disease— is actually I'm usually quite— I'm usually quite talented At being able to remember. I can go on tangents or stick with other people's tangents, and then I can come back and to like where I was. It's like I'm in 2 places at once. This time I actually— yeah, yeah, I've actually, I've actually gone down the rabbit hole. But it has to do with the trap— oh, the trapdoor, the trapdoor, the trapdoor. You were saying if it, if it was just up to one person, we couldn't do this. You're right, because it's not up to one person, it's up to consciousness. Which expresses itself as apparently 7 billion different people and trillions of different things. So that is how we, we have the escape velocity to be actually timeless, you know, like you're saying.

Yeah.

The truth is there is no time in any real sense. It's real as far as like, if I look at my watch and I say, Chris, I'll meet you at 8 o'clock for a call, then time is real. But we're not really talking about— that's why it's an illusion. It's real enough In a relative sense to a separate self.

Yeah.

You know, from a separate self perspective, it's real because that's how we see the world. But as a fundamental nature of reality, it actually doesn't exist, as you were saying. So, so the big picture that we're talking about, I believe, is knowing all these things, like learning all these things. Because I think most of us have been on this path of learning about our true nature. Now that we've all gotten a lot closer to really having experiences of knowing ourselves as infinite internal awareness, whatever word you want to use. The real new thing for me that I've been working on the past several months, and the only reason there's all these new podcasts even, or where I'm going, is now it's like, how do I bring that knowing? How do I live from that knowing? And how do I— what would creativity look like? Or what would filmmaking look like? What would futurism look like? What would gamification look like? What would government— whatever.

Yeah.

What would those things look like if they were born from conscious, the real, you know, true self, you know, essential self.

Yeah.

Which, by the way, again, is what magic and Aleister Crowley— I know he's totally politically incorrect here and controversial because I know what everyone thinks of Aleister Crowley, but if you look back at the actual definitions of Thelema and know thyself and love is the law and all that, there's some really beautiful namings of the true self. And that's what that thing is all about. That's what magic is about. It's about knowing your true self and then willing.

Yeah.

But love is the law. Love under will is what he said. And I actually interpret that as love is under will. It's not subsidiary to will. Love is what informs will. So if you're going to will your creativity on this world, this manifest world of apparent selves where people can get apparently hurt and all that, you want to do it from love.

Yeah.

And so it's love under will. Love is the law. Love under will was his famous saying. And I actually think it was much different than a lot of people have come to believe, just because he was a wacky, all, you know, weird, shadowy— like, at the end of the day, he seems to be— seems to have went off on some weird heroin and all that and all that stuff. But there was some real, real gems in what he started out with.

I wanted to follow I wanted to follow that thread a little bit, which is that I, I've recently learned that abracadabra means with these words I create, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so it's about empowerment. And one would say this is not— this is a little bit conspiracy theorizing, but it's also just analyzing dynamics of power, um, in the 3D reality, in the world where you need to fight for power and power is like— there's a struggle, right? Um, it would make sense that if there were empowering technologies, whether that be magic or some kind of writing or some kind of practice, some kind of skill, that those things would be— for the people in power, those would want to be heavily guarded or not communicated well to the general public because they would not want people rising up and taking agency, and then potentially upsetting power structures. So for many things that are so-called demonized or, or whatnot, many technologies, it's helpful to go back and look at it not from a revisionist lens, but it's kind of like a lens of where is the source of this and what does that mean and how does that feel. Because when you do that, it's all the same when you get to the source. The source is about empowering people and giving them sovereignty, agency, and intention. The ability to use our language to intend and focus reality into a thing that we can actually create. Um, that's like our essential ability as humans. And we know something that I'm seeing right now is like, if you watch The Social Dilemma on Netflix, uh, have you watched it?

I couldn't bring myself to watch it. I saw the, I saw the highlights and I heard everyone talking about it. And because I've been looking at soft software for 8 years and I'm like, yeah. And I got in, and by the way, I got it, I got into all the conspiracy kind of stuff in 1993 when I was like 20 because I took a class in college actually called Literature of the Occult. Swear to God.

Yeah.

Community College in New Jersey at Brookdale, there was a class called Literature of the Occult 1 and 2, and I got introduced to 2012 and Messages from Michael and shamanism and, and all of UFOs and all. So I got early, and then Robert Anton Wilson's like my hero, and he went into all this stuff. So I'm quite— I used to be kind of a junkie, like y'all can do sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm quite familiar. Yeah, I'm quite familiar with— I think the narratives and the—

And I agree, the thing with narrative, and this is, this is like an open question to you, is that narrative classically is built on the concept of conflict, you know. So, so if you're making a utopian narrative, the only person I've seen pull this off really well is Kim Stanley Robinson. Um, yeah, uh, if you're making a utopian narrative What a boring story is. Everything was all good, and then it continued to be all good for the rest of time. There's no conflict, there's no change, there's no friction, there's nothing pushing and pulling, there's no dynamism to it. And yet, when you apply narrative, which we will fundamentally because it's the thing that separates us, quote unquote, from other creatures— that's inside the construct, right? Inside the construct we're playing. Um, we apply narrative to all of these things, like the literature of the occult, right? Therefore, the narrative of the occult is something's good, something's bad, something's vying for power. Is always— there's always going to be elements of that. And the problem is we put ourselves in a box when we do that, because we then demonize this thing, and then we uphold this thing, and then we say things will only be better when this thing is dead or gone, or this thing is allowed to be. And so what we do is we inadvertently create a narrative where there's a condition on our own access to what I call the infinite, basically, or the, the higher being, the universe, whatever. One of my messages to people in my podcast, and just in general any conversation that, that opens to it, is we have unconditional access to the infinite. And that's what this is really all about. Honestly, the world doesn't need to change. I just wanted to change for the sheer joy of it because I know that it can and I know that it will. Um, but it doesn't need to because no condition needs to happen for us to be able to feel our fullness, our wholeness.

Yeah.

So I, I, I— that's what I would urge anybody to do who's like excited about that stuff is to just be aware of when it's creating the narrative that it says this thing needs to happen in order for this thing to happen. So, but how do we create a narrative going forward that has the juice, so to speak, of narrative, the thing that compels people to be part of it, and at the same time reflects the essential wholeness that is? And I think for me, my approach has been, well, it's a bridge. So the narrative is added structure the ordinary world, literally the hero's journey, right? Uh, that we're in the ordinary world and then we cross over into that utopian mindset and world. And then there's challenges and whatever perceived challenges, which are really just people's fears about what utopia really means. There's a lot of, there's a lot of collective fears about utopia being a secret dystopia or, um, you know, that what, what does it mean? What do we have to give up for utopia to happen?

Right?

And I think, I think narrative can help work that stuff out. And I also think that language, as I said, I think English specifically is something that there's an art to speaking while being empowered, because generally speaking, by default, people will disempower themselves by speaking English. Um, visuals, filmmaking, gamification, those are art forms that are more empowerment neutral, so to speak, and are also, I think, closer to the infinite. So actually, as we translate our ideas— like, this is helpful, right? I love talking about this, and we're enjoying having this conversation. If people listen to this, they'll enjoy it, who are called to do it. But I don't think en masse people will enjoy this because people enjoy stories. And so if we can story by what we're talking about in a way that comes from wholeness and bring people from where their current perceptions are to what that future perception is, while using the story format to overcome, overcome, to dissolve their objections to it and bring them forward to that point of catharsis, because that's really what you're doing is bringing them to their own catharsis, the opening. How do they get to it in themselves? That's that Star Wars, but now I know how to use the Force and I know it's real. That's the, like, ultimate objective. That for me, I feel like, is my— if you could like to call it purpose.

Yeah, you know, you reminded me— thankfully, saying thank you— you reminded me of kind of the loop. So the loop for me, where we kind of started, is your passion for a bridge. I think number one. Yeah, I like this store— store— so I want to touch base on storifying and the bridge. They seem to be related.

Yes.

And I, I will, I will say, I mean, my website is just kind of an Andy Warhol or Paul Klee. It's just like this, like, expression, you know. It's not like— it's— yes, I'm not right yet ready. I don't have a natural, organic, clear communication. I'm much more of a, you know, an avant-garde artist right now. than for your reader, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's— I mean, I would like to keep improving to have simultaneously be like, you know, a poet and the most clear communication. Although, right, you know, you wouldn't ask Allen Ginsberg or Rumi to make his poem work for your mom. That's what a marketer says, you know. Like, if the goal was to— if the goal was to be as completely like signal 100% signal, it's kind of a different art form than—

Yeah.

Or, or someone who likes to translate things, like, but you wouldn't really expect, you know, Allen Ginsberg to change Howl so his— so like, you know, the mainstream could understand it. That's not necessarily my, you know, my impetus or my drive. So it's nice when I'm with like, like people like you or friends that start to understand, like, well, let's just let Bret be Bret. I'll be Chris, and the power— the power is coming together.

Yeah.

To enhance each other's positions and skills so we don't have to try to wear all hats. There's no reason I should be trying to— to— to— to— to— dumb down is not the right word. There's no reason I should really— but it doesn't mean I can't get— and I am working on it— like getting crisper or finding new ways to say the same thing. I'm totally open to that. At the same time, I want to have my artistic, you know, license, so to say.

We don't get to have it anymore. We're going corporate. I've sold it already to—

just kidding.

I didn't—

I know, right? I didn't patent it. You've already patented it without me knowing. I'm now barred from my own intellectual property.

You can't think your thoughts since there are chips in our head. We can't think our thoughts anymore, otherwise we get charged NFTs. I'm just kidding. That's the dystopian reality we're joking about.

That, that reminds me of something else. Oh my God, with Between Me and You, it's gonna— this is gonna test the limits of my, my coming back from tangents, which I like. Um, so on my website somewhere, I did make the point that I believe film and music are the tipping point bridges because of their universality, because they cross cultures, and because they're the most epic current form to me of impact. That's where the social impact entertainment was mostly coming from in my expression. So I'm really interested in first things first, and I don't think it's VR.

Yeah.

And I don't think it's like film and music are the portals.

Yeah.

To the next level, which is why I do want to get into this idea of regenerative creative immersive filmmaking. But before I get there, like, I want to stick with asking you about this bridge and the storifying, because I do think we can storify even this conversation. Like, some people will enjoy this con— this conversation itself, but with NFTs, with editors.

Yeah.

And with a, a small group of creatives. See, I've just— I've always been lacking the, the mastermind groups for all my different specialties. You know, like, if it's just me talking about this, then it's kind of like a little bit of the vaporware thing.

Yeah, sure.

It's like, how could Bret, you know, do that? But if I come to the table and I say I've got— actually, like, I talked to my friend Jeannie this morning, and during the week we have people creating live art.

Yeah.

Now I'm coming to the table and I'm not just talking about NFTs and, you know, a resource-based gift paradigm. I also have, like, people that can draw amazing art and make music. So when I say we have NFTs and X the Game, I'm not just— it's not just me. It's like me and my army, you know?

Yeah.

I don't mean me as the leader, but like when I come to the table with Chris and his brilliance and Gina, now it's like, can't I— I believe I can get to the point together with people, right, to start storifying it, for lack of a better word, to actually create that bridge. And I feel like we're This is— I mean, this is one of the reasons of getting to know each other better and having this conversation. I think we're— yeah, I think we're like, we're, we're truly on the path.

We're on the path.

To figuring out how to create these bridges. And just one more piece of information as an example. Yeah, one of my dear co-creators, Mona, lives in Cairo. Yeah, and she has a duplex with a rooftop apartment. It's absolutely beautiful. And recently she got paid by a film crew, like an Egyptian soap opera. They came by and rented her place for one day. 70 people came through because it's so lovely on the roof. So they paid her good American money for that, and they said she could easily rent this place out in the industry. Like, she could move out and get a nice place and just leave this place to be a film location.

Mm-hmm.

So number one, we have this natural location. Location already that we wouldn't have to pay for, number one. Number two, she's getting to know the industry there and all like the movers and shakers and professional photographers and videographers and actors and all that. Number three, she might even be able to make enough money doing that to do like a pilot storification of some of the coming together of some of all of our ideas. So like, we're like 3 steps closer today than we were 2 weeks ago, just getting knowing each other here. And then And you probably know a couple people, and somewhere along the line we're going to know someone who actually wouldn't— would be able to put in a few hundred thousand or a million because they love— they want to help be part of something. Or we just get on with the NFT thing, which I think I have a real deep line on, and how we could actually generate all we need through the storification of our own journey. We don't necessarily need—

Right.

Brad Pitt or Hollywood writers, right? I've met enough eccentric, interesting, photogenic, even if you want to go there. Like, we have everything. We have everyone we need. We have sets. We have locations. We have equipment. That's now for me about getting deeper, some of us, into the co-creative. Like, so what is the first thing we want to do? And what is this?

Right.

What is the bridge? And what is the storification? But I'm 100% interested. If people show up that are smarter than me in different ways and more creative and also more talented in different ways, so like let's get it on. Like what is the first thing? Some kind of you know two-hour documentary and Netflix pitch and blah blah blah. I don't know, but it's it's right there because we've got all the little pieces coming. Is it just documenting you know the the journey of the existential prize and to some and together? And I don't mean. That my project dominates. I just mean it's one piece.

Sure.

That could be cool. And if it becomes other people's too, because I share it, it's like I don't want to lose my creative authority, but I also want to share it. It's like this fine line. How does it become a bunch of ours, you know, rather than just mine? But also like, I have a piece. Like, I was— God sent me here like you for a certain reason. Like, yeah, and it's not to just dismiss all of my ideas, but it is The beauty of true co-creation will be when each of us can show up, and it could be different projects and blah blah blah blah blah. So we'll find out. And if it's meant to be called something else, and it's meant to be called this instead of that, I don't really care so much about that. But, um, uh, yeah, the further conversation is more about the actual film and ideas I have, so I'm going to leave that for now. And okay, I'm gonna throw it back to you just to relate to anything I've shared.

Yeah. Oh my God, so many things to relate.

to.

So one of the things we learned about in film school, which I went to, was called mode of production. And so that's basically like the entire sort of like process. You probably know this, but it's the process of how the film gets made. And there's different modes of production, different decades. I was learning it in the context of film history. So in the context of film futurism, mode of production will naturally have to change because the mode of production of making films before now was based on all kinds of non-sustainable practices, exploitative practices of resources and people and hierarchies that disempower people and only certain voices get through. Creative decision-making, the idea of the auteur theory, like one person's vision, like all these things kind of get in the way of what the quote best or ideal way of creating a movie is. And we don't even know what that is. So at the same time of not really knowing what the art form is, we don't really know how to make it either yet. We have to reveal it. We have to let it happen and see what's going on with other people. So that's one thing. The other thing is that stories are not just a better way to translate concepts to people. And I love the idea of a translator because I've always thought of myself as a bit of a translator, even though a translator is a super boring term. So I might come up with something that's more exciting than that, between mediums, right? I've always wanted to make movies based on video games because I always thought I could take the unique mechanics of video games and represent them in movies in a way that's really exciting.

So, for example— But really, that would But really, that would make you, as my— I mean, I'm using my words at my own risk of being egotistical. It sounds to me like you're a transmedium producer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, a transmedium author or whatever word it is. But if you're going across and beyond different mediums, then you're— to me, it's transmedia.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. And that's interesting. But I think the really key is that the story reveals it to us. So as we story buy it, it gets more clear to us. Because as you intellectually do it and cognate it, this is brain crack, this is fun, and it does create the ground for gaining clarity and creating cooperation and systems and blah blah blah, but it's not enough, quote unquote. Once you storify it, then there's the pieces, the nuances of it that you don't even know because you're accessing a different part of your brain that I believe is kind of, we'll call it, closer to the infinite self. as the symbols of narrative are much more rich and nuanced than the symbols of language. And so that's why I think storification is inevitable, because ultimately there's messages in the storifying process that will make what we're doing more clear, and we don't even know what those are yet. So when I go about creating a story, I'm like, okay, here's all the stuff. Now let me just go and see what is revealed as best as I can. It's hard to do that with my brain because my brain— my life has been dictated in the past by this duality of the brain has absolute control and knows that the heart matters, but basically simulates what the heart wants, not actually gets out of the way and lets the heart speak for itself, so to speak. Um, and And I'm— that is an active practice that I'm doing right now, which is how do I not get ahead of reality unfolding with my brain? Because my brain is great for certain things, um, but for the idea of both kind of dictating what will happen and also dictating what my heart wants, it's not. It's an imperfect machine for that. So, um, that's currently where I'm at right now, is I'm actually searching for what is my And I feel like it aligns with what we're doing here. I also have my own fears, which is like, oh man, this sounds like it could be a lot of creative investment, could be a lot of time and energy that might take away from my job, so to speak. Like there's a lot of self-ego fears going on. And it's funny that we talk about like not to be egoic, right? And, and I appreciate that we're having that conversation because I think like We didn't come here to play in this reality construct to transcend ourselves. We came to play through ourselves, right? We came to identify closely with the characters that we play and expand our consciousness and live in both realities, so to speak, at the same time. And I don't think it will ever not be like that. And so there always will be an egoic side to it. And at the same time, I feel like you and I and At least I'll speak for myself, can recognize when the creation, the collective unconscious, is moving in a certain direction. It's like, oh yeah, it's not my thing, it's this thing. You know, like I was, like I said, I was writing the Story of Tomorrow framework, which is helpful, and it could be used maybe to infuse into Regen Era. But I see Regen Era, it's this beautiful island, there's all these people, this whole system set up. It's like, you know, all these artists. a lot of momentum behind it, and it has the essential qualities of what I said. So yeah, that— we'll take that. I'll take the thing that I could have spent 10 years building myself, uh, and instead it's already in existence now, please. And I'll just kind of not abandon what I was doing, but it's like, now it's time to leapfrog on top of that thing. So that's what I'm really excited about, is like, I've— this, this philosophy, so to speak, has been kind of solidified in my mind as being like, okay, this is the way forward. But now that we are connecting, now that I'm seeing that it is happening, now that's giving me free rein about, okay, what's next? How do we— what do we build on top of that? You know, what's the next piece? Because now my brain doesn't have to be concerned with how do I solve the problem of this larger thing, because it already exists. It's like when I— have you ever had the thing where you Have an idea for a movie and then a movie comes out that's like that, and then you watch it and you're like, okay, well, I don't really care about my idea anymore because that was close enough to what I wanted to do. That's happened with you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

So that used to really piss me off because I was like, ah, if I'd only had the resources to make my version, then I could have gotten the credit for the invention of blah blah blah, right? Um, but no, I'm not as worried about that now. And I feel like we're kind of on the same page. It's like hardcore ego but hardcore collective unconscious at the same time, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's like, why wouldn't you want to be the center of attention and the ringleader? And like, yeah, people are talking about you in context of this happening. Like, that sounds awesome. Like, if we're going to create a utopia, it's not going to be like that thing where people are like sacrificing for the greater good of the utopia. That's just a mindset of why we can't have it, right? The utopia we're talking about is the infinite reality where we all get our needs met to the, to the most, uh, to the degree that we want, right? And our needs are kind of defined by ourselves, but as we connect to the higher self We also connect to that deeper sense of satisfaction. So that's all happening at the same time, but that's not going to look like THX 1138 or any of these movies where people are wearing like Logan's Run is another one, right? Where there's some kind of catch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's really, it's really, it's really good stuff. I have a couple of things to relate to that on the story of ego. One, there's this transformational tool, I call it, of the Gene Keys. Have you ever heard of the Gene Keys or worked at all?

I have heard of them. I haven't worked with them.

It's, it's, it's really phenomenal. I'm not the type of person that usually cares too much about the different maps like I Ching and like astrology and, and all that, but this one, the Gene Keys, was so strangely and provocatively reflective of me that I was like full I can't really like look away. You know, I can't, I can't not be interested. It's so amazing how it's, even though it can be interpreted, it's a beautiful combination of mystical writing and spiritual writing. And what I would say is clear writing, I would say, instead of factual or scientific, just clear. But it can be interpreted. But I just couldn't believe, and when I see my friends and their charts, and it's quite amazing. But yeah, one of the lines in the Gene Key says, um, you have to have an ego worth giving up before you give it up. So I always think of that because you're on a— you're on a certain journey. Like, before you can destroy it, you have to have one worth, like, giving up. I like— also, I've always identified with the idea— I combine the idea of, um, you know, this— and I guess Nirvana is a Really, I think when they translate it, it kind of means extinction of ego, actually. And one day I was looking at that and contemplating, and then I was thinking of the T.S. Eliot poem that says it ended with a— not with a bang, but with a whimper. And when I put those two together, I was like— and I think you just described this, you used some words— my conception was that we expand, expand, expand the ego ego until it silently would disappear on its own accord because it got so big and so diffused and so infinite that that would be self-transcendence. Because it would naturally just— you would look around and there would be no one there to look around because that's why you don't have an ego, like, because you actually expanded until it just naturally dissipated. And I always thought that was much more At least enticing to me than extinction, like extinction of the ego, which feels a little bit shadowy and like I'm not. Yeah, even though I love Eastern wisdom and Nirvana and all that kind of good stuff. And then the last, the last bit is I always think of incarnation. I like I'm tuning into myself as consciousness, like as eternal and infinite awareness. Like you're saying, I am the There is no nature for me out there. There's nothing out there or in there. It's all that.

Yeah.

I mean, it's all like, that's what the— what an Eastern person might say or whatever. And I'm not trying to go super woo, but like, thou that art, you know, like, I'm into that. And if that's what I truly am, I feel like when I have a limiting belief, like when I do something in the world and manifest something, that's when I'm incarnating. Like, I don't think you actually incarnate when you die like this, like that. I think we're actually incarnating every time we step out of ourselves as the infinite and imagine that we're limited. Like, I'm Bret Warshawsky, born on whatever, and I have a passion for being a ringmaster of Togetherland. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what, like you're saying, I'm going to make that happen as an ego, as a vehicle.

Yeah.

As an incarnation of the infinite. That's one of the, the characters of the infinite named Bret Warshawsky, or Bret Mr. Full of It. So in that sense, I think we're always incarnating when we're in time.

Right.

When we're in playing in time and space, that's when we're literally incarnating. And it's— so incarnation is really a moment-to-moment thing, not a lifetime, or every moment is a lifetime if you wanted to say it like that. You know, because time doesn't really exist. So every moment is the now, like exactly like you were saying. So I'm super— I'm just super excited to have some, like, a new friend that— yeah, it's easy when the philosophies and life experiences kind of, you know, match up to be creative in a sense together. I mean, like, I feel like you have pieces to my puzzle, like, as well. Like, yep.

Yeah, I knew that when I was watching you talk. Oh, I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry to interrupt you. What were you gonna say?

No, that's okay. I'm complete on that anyway. If there's something else you wanted to—

No, yeah, I felt the same way. I felt the same way, um, when I was just watching you talk about stuff. I was like, oh yeah, because I feel like in the interviews you had, it was very much this— people are like, Bret, open up your brain. Like, here's a prompt, go. And you're like, well, yeah, there's like 5 levels to talk about that on. There's like the physical level, the economic level, this level, this level. And like, I'm like, oh, somebody else who does that, you know what I mean? And I was like just really excited about the conversation we were gonna have because at this point I don't really like— I do modulate my conversation depending on the person, but in a lot less conversations do I do that. I just like full out go like, this is it, this is like where I'm at. Let's talk about it. And I— it's just really exciting what's going to come of that for me because, yeah, I feel like I'm talking with my full self and all the things I care, all the lenses that I use, and like jumping lenses. And like you said, like you go down these tangents into this black hole, right? And like I do that too. And, uh, my father was a person who did it without success. He did it without the connection, the rapport. building. And so I saw that as a, as a, as an example of who I didn't want to be, because I was like, we have similar brains, right, in the story, in the 3D reality where we are born and inherit genes and all this stuff, right? But, um, I saw that similarity and I was like, I will never be that person. I will never be the person that loses connection with other people, right, because of my brain. And at the same time, if you can develop that skill Then it's amazing to go on those flights of fancy because it all matters. Nothing is wasted. Tangents are only the way we think about them. We think of a conversation needs to have a linear path, but a tangent is actually just what's happening now, what's being revealed. Yeah. So—

Which is why I love— I— which is why I love that gift of mine, and I love when I'm with other people that have a similar gift, because really It's, it's, it's, it's, it's— for me, it's the greatest combination because I can do what you're saying. I can completely follow the flow of the thought process, right? And not really lose the thread. Like, we have still keep coming back to like the, the thread, and I don't feel like I haven't said anything I didn't want to say. Because I'm sure you have this experience, a lot of conversations you kind of feel like you didn't get to say everything you wanted said, or because if you went on a Tangent, like, but when I'm with someone— yeah, yeah, I've had this my whole— I've had this my whole life with a bipolar experience. I have people tell me, you're, you're, you know, you're manic or you're a tangent. I'm like, well, it depends on what your perspective is. If I was like, when I'm with someone who, who is neurodivergent in my particular way, we're like 2 peas in a pod. There's no resistance, there's no conflict, there's no, there's no, there's no tangents or hyper It's just like, yeah, our, you know, we happen to be highly quantum computer-like.

Galaxy brain.

On some level. Yeah, I mean, it wouldn't be as much fun if we couldn't, if we didn't also have our left brain. Like, I feel like we have, we're having a thread, like we are actually. I, I feel the pull like that we're weaving around, and the pull is still your intention, actually your intention at the beginning of this call, which I can't say word for word, but I know in essence was like, what is the next— what does filmmaking mean next? And what does it mean to be immersive? And what can we possibly create? And then furthermore, from this lens of like bridging and storifying, so it's— yeah, it's— so it feels at least— so at least in our— to make our minds feel better, it feels understandable. Clearly, Chris, you got— you gotten from me. I like— obtainable is not really in my vocabulary, so to say.

Yeah.

And part of it's a— I mean, part of it, to be honest, part of it's a blessing because of my past with this bipolar experience and having to learn that my definition of success isn't externally motivated. Like, I didn't— if I judge myself according to the general rules of status quo society, I would be the biggest failure that ever existed.

Yeah.

And oddly enough, by the way, you get 11 gene keys in your gene keys, and 3 of mine are the same one, which has failure as a shadow. So I know this, this key, this key. I know this DNA of failure. And I had a breakthrough a couple years ago on that level. And so on one hand, it's a real gift, like, for me that Knowing myself and having good friends and a loving wife and all, I already feel successful in that way you were talking about, of like the infinite, like wholeness.

Yeah.

I've gone through like a dark decade of the soul, I once said. Not even a dark night, it was a dark decade for me, you know. I was suicidal probably for years on end, in a sense. Yeah. And like addicted to using marijuana and like in the psychiatric wards times. Like, like, that's like everything else is icing on the cake now that I kind of found my way, so to say. Um, so because of that, it's a real gift for me. So like, I already succeeded to me in the way that matters most, and I just want to— I want to keep refining and living from that because I'm never not fulfilled, really, if I'm honest and I really stay there, which I'm— which I'm working on.

It's not Yeah.

It's not like I'm there in the timeless realms. I, you know, I nod off and I have a shadow patty or whatever, or I see a lack or something. Certainly, certainly not a transcended master, like, you know, in that way. But that's a real gift. And then the other side, because there's also always— like you were saying, if we're going to be in the world of manifestation in 3D, there's always a sort of bargain there. So one of the consequences or shadows of my gift of not caring about the obtainability is that I can be satisfied with being a futurist and knowing—

Right.

I believe I know what's coming. It will look different, it will have a different name. I totally agree with that. But I do believe I'm tuned in, as Barbara Marx Hubbard said, to the evolutionary impulse, and that, like, it's going in, like, this direction. It's like you can't know exactly, but it is a direction. And I'm super tuned into that. So I'm not really worried about the fate of the universe or the fate of myself or the fate of this world, because I, in my heart, feel like even if it's 14 billion more years or 14 more days, it's kind of inevitable that it will reach, uh, greater degrees of complexity, consciousness, and freedom. Like, if that's what the universe does in its creativity, or what consciousness does in its creativity. So, but the, the consequence of that could be I don't know how to manifest as well in the 3D realm.

That was always my problem too.

Business school, or people that know— like, my wife has these great skills from the business world where she has a tender to, you know, if someone says, let's write a 10-page PDF, dude, she knows how to sit down and train her. She knows how to actually produce a beautiful thing. You tell me to do that, I start running around like a chicken without a head. I start panicking. Like, it's not in flow. I don't know what to do. I can't— I don't— I can't discipline myself. If I can't be wild and spontaneous, I don't know what to do with myself, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's stuff— that's kind of the, the, the gift and the curse of, of some of my experience as far as that.

That's so interesting. That's so interesting. Yeah, I— so I always had that same problem. Like, when I read the book Reality Is Broken in 2009, gamification, I was like, oh yeah, this is gonna be huge. But it wasn't huge yet. And so I was still like living in my mom's basement in New Jersey, actually, funny enough. Um, and—

What part of New Jersey?

I was in Union City, right across the Hudson River from Manhattan. Yeah. And it was like, I was like the most depressed I'd ever been. I read Reality Is Broken. I read a few very formative books, but, um, Yeah, it was like I was always felt like it was a curse because I would be like, oh, this technology is definitely going to be a thing. And then I would, but my future casting would be uncalibrated. And so I would like go all in on a business idea that wouldn't pan out for another decade, you know. And I did that a couple times and I was like, all right, I'm gonna stop caring about what I think about the future because it obviously doesn't really matter to people. So I can just be excited And but mostly it wasn't excited, it was mostly like, why the fuck hasn't this happened yet? You know, like, if it can happen and all the pieces are there for it to happen, why hasn't it happened yet? Why am I toiling in this life of limitations? And so what I really wanted you to speak to, because failure is very, very essential to my hero's journey, my journey in general as itself, um, because I, I, I graduated, uh, high school when I was 12. I graduated college when I was 19, and I thought I was going to be a crazy success. So I have child prodigy syndrome. So I'm like, I'm an ultra good—

I'm an ultra good man. I was voted— I was voted— I know I was voted prom king and best looking before my psychotic break. I thought it was always going to be like— I thought I was going to be Tom Cruise the rest of my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you—

so you know what I'm talking about, the like cognitive dissonance that that happens that totally shatters your reality, I feel like is actually— when I think about it, might be the crack that opens the process of awakening. Because awakening, at least in the old paradigm, happens through suffering. People don't tend to wake up when things are going well. Um, so, so, uh, so I just kind of went through depression, and then I like tried to force— I, I got into Law of Attraction, and, uh, I tried to force law of attraction to work via making a feature film. So when I was 23, I was like, I'm just gonna write it, direct it, act, be the lead actor, and I'm gonna go on Craigslist. I'm gonna be like, I'm making a film, it's happening, come join me. And it did work, but it was also nightmarishly difficult because I had no skills, no social skills, no ability to manage people, no ability to really understand myself or manage my own emotions. Like, it was just fucking hard. And I was like, I never want to do that again. Maybe I wasn't born to be a filmmaker, but since I was a kid, I was like, this is what I was born to do. I was so sure of it. And, uh, and so that was like a massive identity crisis, right? And that was a terrible feeling of failure because I never really released it publicly. You can like buy it on Amazon, but I never told anybody about it. And it was a compromise. When I look at it, I only see the flaws. Maybe not now, but— for the longest time. And then I gave it up for like— it's been like 13 years. I gave up seriously filmmaking and seriously doing much that couldn't make money. I started— my logical brain started being like, we'll only do creative stuff if it's gonna make you money, which also killed my creative flow because the creative flow is like, whoa, money's like this tiny limited lens to view things. Like, the universe doesn't give a shit about money. Like it just wants to create from the most pure place. So I wanted to say all of that because I'm curious what you said. You had a breakthrough about failure, and I wanted to know like where were you at before that, and then what, what did you go through, and then where are you now?

Cool, I'm definitely going to answer that. I actually had to take a note finally because there's one thing I didn't want to forget for later. The first time I took a note. I have to ask you, uh, I won't forget your— I won't forget your questions, but while we're on the top—

Yeah, it's all good. I won't forget it.

What was your— what, what did you— what did you go to college for? What did you graduate with? What kind of—

Film and digital media.

So you were always excelling in art? You were always excelling like in art then even?

I excelled in everything.

Did you also excel in math and everything and science and all that?

As a, as a kid, I was tested like I was almost skipped ahead. in public school.

Yeah.

And I tested above average in everything. So I thought I was like a super genius or whatever. And then like, and then I started homeschooling and then I started taking community college classes. So I just always had this super bizarre framework for like heavily valued my intelligence and basically nothing else. And, you know, thought that life was always gonna be like school, like school was an easy system to figure out and to excel in. And I was like, oh yeah, the rest of life will be like this. But then not with relating to people, but I was like, I'll figure that out. And then turns out that's a whole set of skills you have to like trial and error learn. But yes, film and digital media. It was originally computer programming actually when I was younger. I wanted to make video games and so I was learning computer programming. And then ironically, like somewhere in my late teens, I was like, nah, film sounds good. And I, you know, my friend who also did the same thing as I did, he kept on the computer programming path and then he was like making $100,000 a year like super quick when he was young. And so we had this insane dichotomy of like, I'm like poor eating ramen, working food service jobs with a film degree that's useless, and, and he's like, you know, making a bunch of money, setting up, buying a house, having family. So I saw the life that I could have had Had I stuck with computer programming. So a long time I was like, oh, film is freaking useless, you know, like I just watched movies and wrote papers. So—

Oh, how strange things are. And how old are you, by the way?

I'm 36.

36. Wow, so a 10-year difference. I'm 47, just turned 46.

Happy birthday.

Um, well, not just, but I recently, last month or something.

Yeah.

2 months, whatever. Hard to believe. So the question is, what's my relationship with failure in general? Or like, I mean, I guess generally—

You said you had a breakthrough, right?

Breakthrough, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have to be. Whatever you feel like makes sense to say in this moment about it, I guess.

Yeah. Well, I struggled a lot, as I think a lot of artists do, with comparing myself. to other artists.

Yeah.

That was my massive, like, monkey on my back for many, many years. Like, if I couldn't write like Jim Morrison or Roger Waters, those are my favorite rock lyricists, then I couldn't really accept it. Like, I couldn't find my own voice as well. And when it came to this breakthrough and this idea I had about the language, philanthropy for a decade, I used to compare myself to like Richard Branson and other people, or say why— or outsource my victimhood. Like, why won't Richard Branson do what I would do with a billion dollars? And my wife finally looked at me one day, she said, Bret, because you're here. You're here to be the spiritual philanthropist. They're— Richard Branson and Elon Musk and all these people, they may or may not do what you would want them to do, but you're obviously here to be that. So go be That. Um, so there's definitely a long, long trail of— I say comparison is the number one thing, and, and not being able to find my own voice. And then also this simultaneously, this negative thought in my head that I like, I'm never gonna do it, I'm not good enough. So therefore I also didn't learn how to make movies, let's say, or learn—

Right. A craft.

of writing, or like, for example, I love music. Like, I recorded the craziest crappy record in the late '90s to save my life, really, like when I was super suicidal.

Yeah.

Like, I've shared it before. The singing is just so bad and the musicians, but it's kind of— I still love the lyrics, actually. I still want to record it, like secretly. I want to be a rock star. So secretly, I want to be kind of a rock star, not for the adulation, But because I always loved the feeling I had when I went to see a live show. And I'd often think, what does it feel like to be on stage and instead of receiving the music, to be the one providing that good feeling and feeling 50,000 people singing your song? Not because you have a false sense of yourself, just what does it feel like to have like 50,000 people singing back to you?

Yeah.

Like your lyrics. And what does it feel like feel like to have your band behind you, like, and feeling the guitars, like, freaking out, like, the song you wrote together. I was really like— and a similar feeling with film, but I would say actually even more visceral with music for me. Like, wanting— I don't think I'm born to be a rock star, but if you said to me I could do anything, I would actually pick, like, the ability.

Yeah. Yeah.

And the experience to play like Radiohead or The Doors and, and to have the experience not just to be a bar band that's excellent, but to actually have the experience of playing for 100,000 people and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

And I'm a terrible musician. I'm a terrible musician by, by nature. Like, I mean, I just didn't pick it up. I've been fiddling for 20 years on my guitar. The running joke is one day my wife looked at me, you know, a lot of people say like they, they suck and then they play and you're like, wow, you were like whatever. I'm not really like that. I'm like really suck to most degrees.

Yeah.

And one day she looked at me and she said, dude, she said, seriously, you've been playing for 20 years? And that's like, that's like the story of that. And I don't, and I don't sing naturally very well. I mean, like, you know, some people can sing, you know, Bono can sing Frank Sinatra, whatever. Some people are born— I'm not saying I couldn't get better. Like, if I would have trained trained to be a vocalist and put the effort in, in my 20s and went to school, I think I could have been— actually learned a lot. I don't think you can all learn to be Jimi Hendrix, personally. I think there's some gifts that are supernatural no matter how hard you try. I don't buy into that, like if you try hard enough you can be like, you know, uh, uh, Joe Namath or something or whatever. Or of all people, Joe Namath, the quarterback of the Jets from 1969.

That's weird.

But so, so, so, but I'm just sharing all that because I would say the main thing around this failure was comparing myself and not being able to find my own artistry. So I'm like a late bloomer. There was this James Joyce book, you know, Portrait of a Young Man as an Artist.

Yeah.

Um, so I've always struggled with like, I think I'm an artist, but I'm not really like showing up as an artist. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, yeah.

I'm, I'm clearly, I'm a philosopher as well. I mean, clearly I love to talk and philosophize and discuss. Inquiry is my actual gift. I mean, right, the only job or vocation I've ever had since I was 19 and I had that episode is actually self-inquiry. That actually is my specialty. Um, and lo and behold, Chris, in the Gene Keys, the one key that stands for your prosperity, like when you know your being prosperous. So not just money, it's like, what's prosperity for you? The actual gene key for me is called doubt, inquiry, and truth. So the gift is inquiry. So I mean, like, this is another example of these gene keys. The actual gift is called inquiry of my prosperity, and that's what I've been doing for 25 years. I'm an actual professional self-inquirer. So, so that's That's the— that's like the context. That's the context.

Yeah.

And then the last 10 years, the last 10 years, I've had— I finally started having the experience of people perceiving me, and of course more importantly me perceiving myself, to have some level of specialism or authority on certain subjects. Like, it's more new paradigm, like self-organization, a little bit of software, conscious evolution, evolution, philanthropy, even living in a gift economy. Like, I've had this— when I left my last depression in 2010 and decided I needed to leap out of this or I may never get out of it, and I went on this road trip and I followed my— I learned how to follow my bliss more and more, which is what we're all still doing. But when I had this kind of moment in 2010, ever since then I've started having the experience of having a a profession, you know, or some kind of credibility, for lack of a better word, or respect and those kind of things. Obviously more for myself than anything else, which is the end of this story. Um, and more so the last couple years, understanding what my art is and that yes, I am an artist in my own way.

Right.

And all those people I used to read about, like Jim Morrison and all Huxley and Jack Kerouac, all this stuff. One day a couple years ago, I had this revelation where I thought, you know what, I still would like to know what it's like to be on stage providing music and feeling the energy of 50,000 people. But right now I have to say, I think all the angels in heaven are applauding that I am— I've done it. I'm a visionary. I don't care if people don't understand me for 100 years. I know in my heart when you read my crypto poetry, and no, most people won't get it, like most people don't get James Joyce. Like, I'm not here to be understood by every single person, though again, I want to improve that. But I was like, yay, good for you. Like, I mean, I had a moment of like, like, like you wanted to be enlightened, you know, you wanted to be like a visionary. Like, you know what, go look at what you've done, look at the documents you wrote, in 2010 about a holographic economy and sustainability, and look what you've been doing. And look at the screenplay you wrote in 2008, which I don't talk about a lot. I was like, you are what you set out to be, dude. You are a prophet, visionary type person. You get connections and you tell the story of it. And that's— and the angels are like— Or I felt it. It wasn't just necessarily an abstract thought. I really felt like like I had arrived. And it was more fulfilling to know that the angels were like all out there like screaming compared to 50,000 people. And in that moment— and I'm still working on it because it still creeps up, like the failure kind of DNA, it will creep up— but for the most part, that was a moment where I was like, I am here to be a spiritual philanthropist. I'm a metafuturist. I am accurate. Like, it's like you. My mom always calls me, says, Brett, you're always right about the trends. You talked about this and 2 years later you talk about this. I'm just like you. I never could capitalize, right?

Sure.

I never could capitalize on my ability to see patterns and trends. It was always like a dollar a day— what is it— a dollar short, a day late, right? Because I didn't have the resources, right?

Right, right.

Necessity is— necessity is what is the mother of invention, right? So I had to invent spiritual philanthropy. I had to invent Margaret Mansler Full of It in order to fill in this void or whatever, to learn to step, stand on my own, like my own feet and all that kind of stuff. So hopefully that, you know, gives a little insight into that.

That was— thank you. Thank you so much for, for just talking about your journey, especially the, the audience piece, like the feeling of being with an audience and having all of them not just like enjoy what you're doing, but love it so much that they recite back the words that you've spoken. Like, there's such a feeling of like, I don't know, just intense.

Being seen.

Right, it's being seen.

I love it when I go.

To your core, you know. And, and there's like some emotional needs there that for me are tangled up in the creative process. And, you know, for me, I've been stunted. Everything you're saying, same. I've always thought of myself as an artist and yet I haven't done any art. I've always compared myself. With the comparison, I had the added pressure of I've got to do it by a certain time because I'm young. So I do everything earlier than everyone else and that's my identity. So—

Right.

It's like Orson Welles did, you know, released his first feature film when he was 20. So, I got to do it sooner, otherwise I'm no good, you know, I'm not on the trajectory. And that will just fuck your mind up, right? And that, that has what happened. And I guess it's like the original— I realized that that creates the crack for awareness to seep in because when you have a— like, I, I am now appreciating more that journey of what I call being delusional, basically. Or really what it is is just incorrectly, so to speak, interpreting the signals of the infinite and applying them to a fixed context that the infinite can't sit within. And the infinite will just blow it open, right? It'll just say like, no, there's a bigger game being played. So for me, this whole process is very vulnerable and scary because it, it cuts deep to my fears about rejection and about being good enough and worth and acceptance and all that kind of stuff. And I think— and that, that's happening. And I'm so happy to be in a situation where there's no judgment and I can express it. And I feel like that's okay to express it. And not just it's okay, but it also helps because I feel like this Is not like we were talking. We are not successful artists. Well, I'm not going to say we, but I feel like, you know, we're not taking the old and taking it to the new paradigm. We're creating the new paradigm from the ground up. And the opportunity we have is that we don't have a lot of stake in the old world, because I was never successful in the old world until recently, right? I think what you said about a full That does help in giving a sense of worth, at least from the outside. It's like a proxy of worth, but at least it can connect you to the ideas that worthiness inside yourself, so you can start saying, "Oh, I can actually self-generate those." For me, I'm trying to learn like what is the path forward for me in terms of creating, because so far it's been more like what you're talking about, like the philosophizing, talking about it, inquiring. describing the process. Oh, what I wanted to say was the creatives I'm really excited about right now, and there's more of them. I'll say one of them is, uh, Rian Johnson. So I don't know if you like his work or familiar with his work. If you've seen The Last Jedi, um, uh, Looper, uh, The Brothers Bloom, or Brick, any of those movies, incredible. Or Knives Out, also good. Anyway, so what I love about him is he's an incredible storyteller, one of the best, I think, in terms of story structure, like really tight story structure that's kind of a lost art these days of like marketing-centric storytelling. Um, and he is kind. He's not a director that like lords over people. He's kind and empathetic, and that comes across in all of his interviews. So he's like an aspirational figure for me, and he's transparent about his process. And so what I've been called to for for many years is directors who I like, or just creators who I like, and thinking about what is the source of their process. It's always come from this place of, if I can simply replicate their process, I can replicate their result, even though that's not true. It's like reading a, you know, a popular person's 10-step book, 10 Steps to Wealth, and really what they're doing is saying, here's what I did to get wealthy in my time and place, and here are the Concepts I can generalize based on the available samples I have on how to be wealthy, right? Which is not bad. It's nice to be able to expand your data set of what's possible, but it's not how to do it really, right? It's how they did it. And now does anything happen for you? Which is why I—

Right, right. It's like Jimi Hendrix writing a book on how to play the guitar. Like, yeah, here's the riffs and here, here's the scales. Yeah, you can be like me.

Right. And I was the kind of person that read a book on pool and thought, now I'm going to be a pool master because now I understand conceptually how to do it. I recognize that's not— it actually made me a worse pool master because now I was like trying to like navigate like 1,000 different things at the same time while still just hitting this ball.

Right.

Um, yeah. And so what I'm excited about for this process, whatever it is, is that there's transparency in the process. We're describing moment to moment what is happening in the creation of this thing so that somebody in the future can go back to this time and say, this is what they were thinking, this is the source, right? Because I don't want— I never want people to hold up me or anybody else as something that is unattainable or is attainable but only through hard work. What I want to do is be an example. This is where my per— my self-purpose aligns with the world or universe purpose is to be like, no, no, it's right there. I'm pointing at it. This is where to go, right? And so what I loved what you were talking about is you were just pointing at it. You're like, comparison was the main— that was like the big thing. That's where a lot of this stuff sprang from. And then the, like, the ability to start turning and recognizing, well, logically speaking, if I want to be an artist, I got to start making art of some kind, or I gotta start valuing what I'm already doing as art and recognizing my own unique contribution and then stepping in and being empowered in that and then seeing what happens, right? The feedback, I feel like when you're an aligned artist, the feedback is confirmation, not where the value comes from. That's the difference. It used to be for me that where the value came from, hopefully my art's good enough so that people say it's good so I can feel good about myself. themselves. But instead, it's coming from this regenerative place. And so ultimately, regenerative filmmaking, to bring it all back to the main thread, is about regenerating self and worth inside yourself first. It can't not be, because otherwise you're going to be making film with an agenda to gain something for yourself, which, if you expand that holographically, is an exploitative know, it's a, it's a pulling inward and not expanding outward kind of energy. And so it makes sense that the art that I made in the past was not widely effective because I was coming at it from that kind of dynamic of like, only if I— and it was the same with reality creation. So this is why I think technology and narrative is so important to talk about and to actively construct, is because in the future, what we know now will be reflected by the mainstream mechanisms of society as narrative, as technology, as systems that support people. So like, the way I like to think of that, to make a real example, is in the future when we have all-immersive VR that's virtually indistinguishable from reality, you're going to be able to go in it and you're going to be able to practice what it means to manifest. It's going to be sensing your body and your mind and what you're doing, and then it's going to simulate manifesting Inside that virtual space, and then people will make the small leap from wait, can I do that in real reality? And then they will find out, and then technology will be a mechanism through which they understand and experience empowerment. That's what the real bridge is, or that's one of the major bridges is this place where we get to make in our digital reality the world we want. We get to collapse time and create the reality we want. And then we get to basically externalize the technology that already exists in us. What I'm writing— actually writing a narrative right now for an app I'm working on, which is don't mistake the technology for your power. Don't hold up a false idol, which is really just don't project your power outside yourself. And so the story of that is really someone finds a piece of technology that everybody thinks is forbidden, and then they create this terrible situation for themselves. There's a lot more, but the kind of philosophical underpinnings— and then they realize that technology is actually just a magnifier for their own inner technology. And so the technology never had the power in the first place. Anyway, I kind of went— I like brought it back, got back on the thread, and then kind of jumped off again.

So it's perfect. No, it's It's perfect. It's really effortless between us, in my opinion, in my experience. I want to thank you, first of all, for pointing out a different lens on regenerative filmmaking than my original intention. So there is a perfect example of— it's not like I had a blind spot. I just had a very myopic inspiration of what I meant by it, which I'll share on the next time, I think the next time.

Yeah.

But you just added, literally just added added a whole resonant dimension that I clearly would be happy to have thought of and I'm totally aligned with, but it just didn't. Like, and it's totally aligned. So thank you, thank you, thank you for that. And I also want to point out, it also relates to the screenplay I wrote in 2008, which I'll share I think the next time as well, the about it. But yeah, the number one failure piece of the puzzle, which I didn't mention, which you just brought is idolization. That's why I was comparing myself to them, because I was idolizing them and outsourcing. I mean, it's great that I admire them. It's great that they fucking super inspired me. I would never change my opinion on that. But it became like a substitution for my own thoughts or my own whatever. I just I just turned— yeah, I mean, it's really quite simple. I just basically ended up idolizing them, and then I didn't have a voice because I had idols, and they, they were the things outside of me that were better, stronger, more keen, and all this stuff. But I think truly I just didn't have the life experience at that time to have the art be informed in the way they did. Maybe they were dead.

Yeah.

I mean, the people I was looking up to were older, dead. They had already gone through what we're living through now. Now I have the grit for the mill, as Ram Dass said.

Yeah.

Now I have the actual experience. Because when we were younger, like you're saying, everything was so easy that I actually didn't— I'll tell you what, the best thing about my early years is that I grew up being a good person and a humble person despite all my benefits. So I learned the most important things as a young person, how to be a good friend, really, and how to genuinely be a nice person. So I would say that. But everything else is so easy that I've— I only through the last 20 years of struggle or suffering, whatever you want to say, do I actually have the experience that can inform writing a good poem or making a good movie. Just like Jim Morrison went through his own, whatever it is.

Right.

And if you— I mean, you don't think of it when you're 25 and you're desperate and you can't be an artist, but actually Jim Morrison Was dead by then, and like he already had all those experiences. How in the world could I judge myself against that? Like he was in the sixties and all this other stuff. I hadn't even left my bedroom or something like that. Yeah, at that point. So so so the idolization is very big, and it's again it's so weird. In the gene keys, the the the the the gift of this failure is called preservation, and the idea is preservation, and you'll see this. all over me, dude. Preservation in a nutshell in The Gene Keys means getting the rootstock of something and preserving what's meant to be preserved and building new on top of that and getting rid of everything else. So for example, I met Barbara Marx Hubbard. We learned a lot from her. She's written all these books. She has a million good things to say. But for me, she had these things called the 7 S's of co-creation. Yeah. And I saw that and I was like, that's what I want to preserve. and build the new on top of. It's the rootstock. Or if I read a whole book, or Jim Morrison, whatever it is, filmmaking— like, I'm good at preserving and realizing what needs to be let go of, but what's like a nugget.

Yeah.

And then the superpower of preservation is called veneration. So look at me, I'm always paying homage. I'm always talking about all these other people, not as idols now, but as inspirations, as the giants whose shoulders we all stand upon. So veneration in the Gene Keys is this idea of knowing your place in the great hierarchy, in the great chain of being. So being able to see yourself in that timeless context and be able to say, well, you know, it's probably true that Ramana Maharshi was more enlightened than me on this realm at this moment. And by the same token, I have more wisdom than this person, not because anyone's better or worse. It's just like knowing your place place in that great scheme of things. So I mean, that's what I'm saying, the gene gets— and this is 3 times in my chart. So all the people— this is why I came up with names like Bread Mister Full of It and why I'm always integrating people's stuff and why I truly was moved by Jim Morrison and Aldous Huxley and all these people, because I'm a preservationist and a venerationist, and I like the continuation of consciousness and the counterculture, knowing the people that influenced me And all that. So, and then obviously, to take it to the highest level, as this person that was born into the Jewish faith through family, the whole story of Western monotheistic religion is based on like basically Abraham going into his father's shop and saying, what are all these idols? You know, there's only one God. And then, and, and in a sense, Judaism, Christianity, and, and Islam all came from that like singular point of Abraham and all this stuff. And, and for me, the flaw or down or the shadow of religion itself is idolization, is the idea that we look outside. As Jesus said, the kingdom of heaven is within, which is the greatest— for me, the most important thing I have ever heard that means the most to me is that one statement. And it's true.

Yeah.

100%, completely true for me. And if there's one thing I would share with the world or tell people is like, in your own way, try to grok what Jesus was saying.

Yeah, for sure. I'm very much like, uh, uh, when it comes to Jesus's teachings, like, it's— I— so I was, um, baptized Christian, but it was much more of a like savvy political move I did to like make my then family, my stepfamily, feel better. And I was always kind of like, I read the Bible thinking like, this is weird, you know, like very much kind of like from a systems perspective even when I was that young. I was like, maybe I'm an atheist because like spirituality seems— or religion seems to be like super limited and dogmatic. But then eventually I was like, but there's too many patterns for me for there to be no organizing principle besides what I currently see in my reality. So that's kind of— and that actually took me on this path of non-dualism as well. I like non-dualism, but it didn't— it wasn't practical enough for me in my day-to-day. It was like, how do I get the non-dual perspective when I'm going to the DMV? And what does that even mean?

You know?

And then I got into law of attraction, which appealed to my Slytherin side, my desire for like egoic triumph and manifest destiny. You know? Like, and but ultimately that was very cold when it came to not emotional. So I got into energy work where it was like connecting to the energy flowing through your body in a more right brain or yin sort of way. And then I'm kind of coming back around to this reintegrating intention and like pushing directionalities. Um, and, uh, and I think with the— you were talking about the kingdom of— yeah, so when I say I think about Jesus's original intentions, that's when I'm thinking about the source. Again, it's not what they're saying, it's what it's pointing to. Um, I'm inspired to share Krishnamurti, who was a Philosopher in India, he he wrote truth is a pathless land, and that's I always keep that in mind. Everything is only a framework to to point at truth, right? But it's up to us to access to it. The good news is we don't need any qualifications to do it. The the quote bad news is that our Western mindset has in it this idea of conditional thinking. If then. If this, then that, and that's how we operate. And so we apply that to consciousness, right? We apply that to our infinite nature. So we say we think we got to read books or go to gurus, going to do this, this practice, that practice, reach this kind of achievement, and we don't need to do that. And so if I, if I had the ear of hundreds of all the people, that's what I would say is there's no condition. Like any condition is that which you put on yourself. And so I think with idolization, that is that, right? That is a, that is a manifestation of that. I idolized women, I idolized jobs, idolized people, and I see now that that's the thread. And so what you're saying is the— if you take away what's disempowering about idolization and you leave the piece that is empowering, it's venerating and and it's recognizing that thing in the greater context of all of life. And so I thank you for that because I feel like that helped me kind of tweak something a little bit that allows me a little bit more clarity about where I'm going. Because— and the reason why, and, and what this was really all about for me was like trying not to put you on a pedestal. I was trying not to put you you on a pedestal because I was like, you know, this guy's gone through similar things as me and come to an aligned, successful perspective where you feel satisfied with your creative process. I have not yet gotten there, but I feel like it's starting to happen, and I didn't want to make my doing of that contingent on your sharing about it, right? Because idolization is not something that happens once. an ongoing mental habit, basically, or emotional habit. And so yeah, that was very much my intention, was like, how can we share and build something together from a like light, heart-centered, co-creative place?

Awesome. I'm so— I'm super excited to do it together. And, and as far as even money is concerned, although I want to make a world beyond money, it is what it is now. Maybe it'll be— we actually exchanged a message on this I think when we first met, like, let's help each other crack that, even if it's for a day or a year. It might be just one, one check, right? Or one experience that kind of cracks that open to some degree. Like, let— because I want you full-time. I want you not— you need— like, I need, I need Christopher to quit his day job. So that is now part of my goal. So I've got to send you the clip of, you know, do you know about Tenacious D? Jack Black and Kyle. You know any of those songs? Yeah, yeah. There's an awesome click where he's like, "You got to quit your day job," and like, "I got to send you that clip again." That's I'm gonna edit that one. I'm gonna have to edit that one in now. But anyway, now it's part of my mission to make sure like you we we've got you've got everything you need so you can quit your day job and be fully doing what you want to do, not working with me. So to say, I just would imagine if you're 100% doing what you love to do, it will only benefit me. on a selfish note.

Of course.

Um, of course, I, I love, I love Christian, I love Christian Murdy, actually. He was a massive influence, uh, in my 20s when I was in my, in my back, in my bat cave. And his— I've used— I'm gonna say it now because I keep, I keep mangling— what's the word— mangling it. But the, the essence of, of the transforming perceived mental illness into a blessing, this mission I'm on, is in his one sentence where he said it's no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. I mean, if there's not— if I couldn't capture my mental health journey and what my mission is in one sentence, I don't need to— that's what I'm saying. I don't need to like make up a word. I'm happy to give him all the credit in the world. Say, this is my— why—

Yeah.

I believe mental health needs to change. So I just wanted to mention that because, yeah, I'm a big fan of his. I've got a couple more points and I want to go out with a— go out with a bang, not a whimper.

Yeah, yeah.

On this episode of Siskel and Ebert Meet the New Paradigm or something like that. So you know how you said you had your film that not a lot of people had seen? Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna tell you— I'm gonna tell you a secret in public. Uh, in 2008 or so, I was in a C horror film, and I'm not telling you the name of it, so you'll have to see if you can find it. I will— I am not that comfortable with myself. I am not that enlightened to tell everybody what the name of this is.

Yeah.

But suffice to say, it was a very famous B horror director in New Jersey, and I was trying to get out of depression. A friend called me, said, can you help, like, try to do sound or anything? So I show up And on this, oh God, I don't— is it really? I shouldn't say it is, but it was kind of a silly movie. I mean, God bless him and God bless all of us, but it's kind of silly. Maybe not for a B-horror film. But anyway, the premise, instead of the normal priest and like the villain, there was a rabbi. There was a rabbi, of all things, that's like the hero. And it's like kind of a Jason character as the bad guy.

Yeah.

Um, and I, I show up and I've got this really big beard, so I looked even more Jewish than I might look now. I had these really terrible teeth because I had bad teeth. These are actually all fakes. I had really bad teeth from the pharmaceuticals. Yeah, from pharmaceuticals and depression and bad hygiene, all this stuff.

Wow.

Smoking cigarettes and everything. These are, yeah, all implants.

Wow.

So I show up looking like this and the lead character quits. So they say, can you play the rabbi? So I starred in a C-horror film again, which I will not name, but which everyone will now find if they watch this, including you. And I'm waiting for some asshole friend of mine to basically start putting clips up and putting like new parodies, like, you know, like memes or something. There's your fucking futurist, right? There's your messiah, futurist, meta-futurist. So that's really silly, and I'll just— I'll leave the cookie crumbs there.

Yeah.

And to say you're not necessarily alone there, that's some kind of weird something in my closet. I don't know if it's a skeleton or what, but I'm gonna bring it all the way back again. I'm really glad we actually were able to keep bringing it back, bringing it back, bringing it back, which is that you said on one level you were born to be a filmmaker. Yeah. And I believe I was too, to some degree. And when I had my first episode, I was at film school at the School of Visual Arts in New York. Um, and just for your— just for your own edification and interest, I actually said to my friend 6 months before this episode that how will I know genius if I don't know insanity, as far as the law of attraction and manifesting things.

Right.

And then I was, I was reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which is a '70s book, which is about objectivity and subjectivity and the dualism of that, and about a character who literally went through the psychiatric ward and just got through. So I'm reading this book, I get completely obsessed with objectivity and subjectivity and the, the question in this book, and I basically had an out-of-body and had a psychotic break or spiritual emergency, whatever it were, or something even way more science fiction than that, which I want to talk to you about as far as the movie and storification. I've got some good stuff. I think we can— I think we can weave our natural— our natural experiences into quite a cool story, Chris. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I also feel like I'm a natural— I was born to be a filmmaker. What started coming to me the last few years was one, I was never gonna fit in Hollywood. Like, I was never gonna suck the dick there, you know? I was never gonna like— I was never gonna kowtow to them. Yeah, I was never just ready to be a, like, a waiter my whole life. I wasn't right in that way.

No.

Yeah, me neither. Like, it wasn't my— it wasn't my path, so to say, I don't think. And I started thinking the last couple years, as we've all gotten more into the Like the spiritual side of things and this idea of creating your reality, I thought I was never meant to make a 2-dimensional, 2-hour movie on a screen.

Right.

Even an IMAX is not big enough for Bret. They're full of it, right? Really. And then, and then, and, and then the other piece I want to talk to you about in the future is, you know, major motion pictures can take like 2 to 3 years from inception to production to, to, uh, to be shown. And that's kind of boring in a real-time world. In a world that we're trying to also influence and impact. It's kind of— I would still love to do it, don't get me wrong. I love Raiders of the Ark so much, Raiders of the Lost Ark so much. I would like to make a Steven Spielberg-like motion picture, but at the same time, it doesn't feel as appropriate anymore. It doesn't feel as, uh, active and activism. It doesn't feel like the right thing to do in a sense, and it doesn't feel like it's adaptable and flexible in the way that we're all used to.

Right.

I think as we'll get into future— I think as we get into future conversations, I think we can do all things at once. Like, we get footage that someday becomes a feature film, but in the meantime, it's, you know, livestreamed, and it's also on Netflix, it's also documentary. I think we can do that between our brains and bringing in some friends. So bringing it all circle in the sense that we are in some level born to be filmmakers. filmmakers, which probably means born to be storytellers, born to be revealed—

Transmedium.

You know, born to be experiential providers, just like being on that stage, you know.

Right.

I think obviously the medium of filmmaking was maybe never the right thing for us. So with that in mind, I'm going to invite us to go out of this call On the theme of— I wrote it down— story structure. You know, you were talking about this guy Rian Johnson, yeah? And you like the way he does story structure.

Rian Johnson.

So one, right, so one, I'm hoping someday we can do some of these Playcasts where we actually start inviting some directors and filmmakers to come on and talk to us about their process and invite them into what regenerative filmmaking and like, like actually start introducing them to some of the ideas.

Yeah.

That we're going to be talking about over time. So that's one thing I just— that is feasible and something we can do without any production or money or anything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But the other side of it is, if we're born to be filmmakers up to some level and we have the stories among us, is there any way you can improvise a response of like, how do we at story structure the way Ryan does for something that might be more multidimensional and real-time interact— like, what, what could that even look like? I mean, we'll start, we'll start now. We'll actually continue obviously the next time, but I'm just kind of opening the door to the more— I think we've covered an awesome amount of personal story and motivation and awesome stuff, which will continue to keep happening.

Yeah.

future, I want to even get— then start to transition into what could we do together and how do we understand regenerative filmmaking and immersive and use our gamification expertise. So like the next episode, I'm looking for that. But in any way you want to conclude today— Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just leave the next question open. Just, just whatever you feel is appropriate, you know.

Oh my God, I— this is like all I've ever wanted anyone to ask me. So I'll do my best to like Create it in nugget form that opens the door.

Cliffhanger. Well, we need a cliffhanger anyway.

We need a cliffhanger. So in a world where— I agree with you, I think the old way of making films is outmoded. It's obviously outmoded. Look at the film industry, it's collapsing basically and moving on to streaming. So we're in this technology era where a way of consuming media has already been kind of transformed. forming underneath business.

Yeah.

Right? But, but the larger a business or government or organization gets, the slower it is to change. So I— the mode of production we talked about before is naturally going to have to be more agile, so to speak, in its philosophy, rather than it's going to be this giant hulking production wherein 5 years will create a singular thing and then try to get all the people to watch it, right? That's not the case. And it's also not philosophically the case. The case is not that you and I are the geniuses at the top of this pyramid. It's that everyone can tell a story. Everyone, like you said, there are stories among us. So it's building a structure, a network that allows those stories to be collected, curated, and packaged, and then transmitted in a way that is the most beneficial for everybody. Everybody's having the most fun doing it, and it's creating really cool art, because eventually we want to really— we want to do that. And we're revealing the path forward through the art. I love that. Like, this is not a scientific pursuit, creating the world we want. It is equally scientific and artistic. So we are, in a sense, the guardian of the— Not really, because there's a lot of artists who are kind of like going in different directions, but we're essentially the guardians of the meta-narrative, of making sure the philosophy, the thread is— if we think of the tangents we had in this conversation as being all of the, like, the, the different inspirations that people are having, then our opportunity is to see whether we can create essentially a story universe that allows space for all of those. of those people to do what they do and only further empowers them. And so what is a story universe, right? What are the aspects or elements of a story universe? Well, we've already got an underlying thing, which is this island is coming from the future and is now here to watch as we are here. And we were talking and through the process— There are protagonists. Those are naturally going to happen because people identify with people. And so as, as long as we continue to be our human selves, we are compelling protagonists because we connect with the suffering and the emotional stories that people have had. People will listen to this and hopefully not say, man, these guys are full of it, right? Instead, they'll say, oh wow.

But I am full of it.

I know, right? No, I know I did that intentionally.

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, so they'll hopefully be thinking, I connect to that, that's realistic to me. And then, uh, yeah, so I really see the structures as being more bits of story that is unified by a larger narrative structure. And a lot of that narrative structure work has already been done. Now it's really about, for me, what I— where I go from an idea being interesting to being compelling is dramatic potential. So where is the dramatic potential? This is the flourish, the performative self, the way to simplify, in a sense, what is happening, the nuances of what's happening, without losing the spirit, right? So it becomes an irreducibly complex version of the narrative. Like, if we were to do our stories that led us to this point as a narrative, I wouldn't say the best idea is to try to find and be as factually accurate to everything you were going through and then make it like a documentary. Maybe. But I would be pulled more towards abstracting it into a realm of symbols and saying, maybe even displacing the context so it's easy to kind of have that suspension of disbelief, which allows people to let stories wash over them subconsciously.

Right.

So that's what I generally do in the storymaking that I do do, which is I take it, I put it in a fantastical context with sci-fi usually, or fantasy, and then I take one-to-one dramatic elements of real life, and then I transpose them into into the symbolic world. And part of that is a process of discovery, because that's fun for me. It's like puzzle solving symbologically. So, you know, if you were talking about having a psychotic break—

yeah, well, do you mind if I ask you a question, or do you want to finish?

No, yeah, go for it. Yeah, I was just kind of waxing.

Oh yeah, I was wondering if this is something we could try to do live next time.

Totally.

Not that we have the whole thing, but like I give you a couple ideas of what I— and then, and then you— because I have, I have a bunch of stories that I think are cool.

Yeah.

Like if you would do me the great— the graciousness for one evening of saying, okay, you're the star, I will— I want to take your, your actual experience and like you said, I want to abstract it into this. I would love to do that just to see all— just to have the experience, not really much about my story. It's just that I've got it. I've got something, like I've got an idea, but I don't know how to do what you're talking about really.

Yeah.

I'm not a storyteller, like I'm not a visual, like, filmmaker like that. Like, even going into Born to Be a Filmmaker, I'm still more of a, a little bit of a screenwriter/director more than I am cinematographer, like set designer.

Same. Me too, actually. I'm not a visual person either.

Yeah, but you've got a little bit more of a handle. You've got a little bit more of a handle, I think, on some— like, I wouldn't say like it's really deep structure, it's just that you have a prerogative that to me I don't have that would pull something out. Yeah. And then I'm sure that would create something new for me to think about, and then I would bounce that. Yeah. new idea. So anyway, I just meant— so if you, if you can remember your train of thought, I just wanted to say, the next time, can we try doing something? Yeah, like literally live, like where we, we try to create one scene. Like what would be the opening scene of this story, of the storification of Albert and Mr. Pulliver or whatever, or something like that?

Anyway, so one idea I had—

that would be cool—

just for an example is like you're talking about having a psychotic break, right? And what if you take the metaphor, you make that into a metaphor of an alien is taking over your brain, or is like vying for control over your brain, or AI, or whatever, something that's an external force. And now it's a dialogue between you, or who you think you are, and this thing trying to take over. And then the end is like this greater transcendental moment of the 2 things are merging. You find out that the thing that was trying to take over you was actually yourself from the future. There's some kind of reveal like that, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'm on it.

Just something like that generally. So I think we're gonna have— I, I have a similar, a similar thing, but because I'm— but because I'm more like in— well, I mean, although we're similar, maybe 2 idea people can still make a better idea than one person. Yeah, like, yeah, like, like I have like— I have little tidbits, like you're saying.

Totally.

Little But I— you're so creative, and we're on the same page in so many ways. Like, it can only get better.

Yeah.

And then once you add something to it, it'll give me more inspiration. Because I have— from the failure or artist perspective, my worst-case scenario is staring at a blank page. If I have something to look at or to work— it might be this preservation gift. If I'm better off Either I write something inspirational, then it just comes, just comes out of me, or somebody else provides something that I can make something a little bit out of. So having you to support that will make my page brighter so I can then have new ideas compared to like— I get writers, like, if I stare at a blank page, like, if you said, Chris, if you said, Brett, go write all this down, like, you know, and come back to me with a one-pager, I'd probably like freak out. And come back with— well, I mean, now these days I can come back with a little bit, but overall I don't thrive as much when it's just like a blank page. And so I would really love to— I think we'll work off each other that way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me where I've drawn the division of creative fun or responsibility, so to speak, like I've thought to myself like, well, if I had a co-writer, what would I want them to do versus what I do, right? I'm really good at like outlining a general story, like where the story's going, what main beats and it gets harder the more I have to fill it in, basically. Like the more that there's like details, elements, and things. Those things I can do, but it gets harder. It's more fun for me to like— and not just be the per— like I'm the only person outlining the story, but like that's kind of like where I like to go. I like undermine— I like reveal the dramatic potential within a story and then someone else fills out like the world. Right, which is why I look at regenerative—

I think we're gonna work awesome together because, yeah, to be honest, I actually have— I believe I have the capability within me to fill out super detailed stuff, but I get stuck between the initial idea and getting to the point where it's clear to me what those details are. But you might actually be a bridge, even though you were saying about it. If you can help me, and I don't mean I don't mean so much it's about me. If you could help me create a stronger outline that has a beginning, middle, and more, a stronger basic treatment, like, I actually feel like I would have the material I need to then go back and come back to you a week later, 2 weeks later, and say, okay, I've expanded this part of the story more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Then you'd probably be able to say, okay, but But even that scene needs a beginning, middle, end.

Right, right, right.

You know, even that chapter of the story needs a, a, needs a symbolic thing. And yeah, that's gonna be a lot of fun. I'll also send you— see if you have time to just kind of quickly read this thing I started putting together, which is sort of my screenplay. It's called Domesticated Primates Win the Game.

Um, nice, dude. I'm so—

a little bit of an overture. Robert Anton Wilson.

But this is so exciting, man. I'm, I'm excited to play in this, uh, structure. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think, like, on the other hand, if you were to tell me write a one-pager about what this podcast was about, I would have no problem doing that. Like, I have no problem summarizing a lot of information and getting to the essential articulation of it, which is— that's basically the only thing I like about writing. I feel like I'm a good writer, but I don't enjoy doing it. But when it comes to encapsulating an idea into a clarified symbol structure, like, that is— that's what's fun for me, is using writing to like increase or gain clarity. But otherwise, I'd rather talk about it.

Cool.

Just for the sheer enjoyment of it. Yeah, yeah. So was that bang enough or?

Yeah, yeah, no, all good. So my last question of the evening, um, what time is it by you? It's early, it's afternoon, right?

11:20 AM. Yes.

Yeah, it's just, yeah, uh, do you, what are your responsibilities there? Do you have a family or pets or anything? Because I want to get you on a plane to Bali when we get there.

Okay, um, I live with my girlfriend, um, not a lot of responsibility. Uh, she doesn't love it when I travel to places she would like to go. I think Bali might be on the edge of okay because we already live in a tropical place.

Would she come with you? Would she come with you?

She would probably come. It depends on the timing. There's also COVID reality and vaccines and all this stuff. But, um, yeah, generally, like, in a vacuum with none of those things, considerations, yes, for sure.

Cool. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna crack all the other variables.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so it's actually just effortless.

So that's my inspiration from you and my— I wouldn't call it challenge, but my help me solve this problem together because it will be more fun sharing a fun puzzle. Um, how to— how can I kind of create the space to create my best work, so to speak, my best creations, while also serving the highest good of all of the things I'm engaged with. So like, I have a job, and that kind of goes in these cycles where like I was, I was doing like 4 projects at the same time, and that was like really, really intense. And, um, I love playing in these creative spaces at the beginning of projects, but as I get closer to the end, I kind of don't want to do them anymore. Um, that's something I'm investigating for myself, um, in my own creative flow, like what's causing it to constrict or whatever. But then there's just the, like, you know, general variables of one's life, like how is— this is how I make money, this is the people that, you know, I have obligations to, and that kind of thing. And how can I transform my relationship to those things? And so, like I said, for the good of all. So that's, that's my question, because I, I know it's possible, but I don't, as the self in my brain, know how. Yet, like I'm waiting for that part to be revealed. This is more like I'm going down the path. I'm remembering to follow my intuition and not automatically dismiss things if there's no money involved. Because like you said, and like I believe, we're headed to a world where money as we know it doesn't really exist anymore. But the thing is, in order to get to that world, we're probably going to need money to generate and fund. fund the projects we're working on, which is a weird kind of cognitive dissonance to be like, money doesn't actually matter, but I also still want it because I've been trained to want it. And, you know, that sort of thing.

Thumbs up from Cisco to the movie where we practice together. Yeah, and then live happily ever after.

Yeah, yeah, we got 10 years according to the narrative. So, um, I feel like that's a good narrative conceit to keep, keep going because it unifies the most people. I feel like it's a really good target. Like, there's no reason to say like, no, no, actually there's a different island that comes in 5 years early and it's gonna beat Regenerate at what it's doing, you know? Like, there's no reason to mess with that symbol. That symbol's great. And it's, and it's an excellent way to catalyze people around just the idea of the future infecting the present, right? Entering the present. And it's got the right philosophical undertone, but then inside that can be so many stories. Oh, another thing is when we create this story universe, there's gonna be intellectual property involved. And I, feel like you already feel this, but I feel like it's got to be some kind of co-ownership economic model. Because right now, the most lucrative things in filmmaking are intellectual property. Like Disney owns all this intellectual property, creates a lot of bulwark of value, creates this market moat. Nobody can make stories about Mickey Mouse but Disney. And I think that that is so much cultural influence now, like the Marvel Universe, Pixar, all these things are owned by Disney. Not that Disney's the bad guy. I'm just saying this is the systemic outcome of decisions that were made and how we, our society operates. But in a world of regenerative filmmaking, this IP must be co-owned. Maybe must is a strong word, because I think it's one of the main reasons how the system can back up what we're saying, because we could be saying what we're saying, and then in 2 years be flown to Davos and be like, yeah, yeah, sustainability, regenerative filmmaking, it's great. I took a private plane here and I love the system, you know what I mean? Like, and I— that's not where we're going because that's not what's gonna happen. So just keeping that in mind that this intellectual property is for everybody.

We've got, we've got, we've got some nearly there solutions to that because we've been working on a whole systems platform for co-creation which involves the flow of resources and the stewardship and co-stewardship of intellectual property. So I feel it's not like 100% ready as the complete model, but we've done enough prototyping and had enough bad experiences as well as good ones to know why it's important, like you're saying, and to know what's needed.

Yeah.

And because of obviously distributed ledger technology, technology, it will be easier. Even NFTs could be used for stewardship. So, um, I'm feeling pretty real— I'm feeling really confident and strong on that solution being in the space already.

Cool.

And that's one of the things, well, I want to actually approach. Like, you know, I had invited some people to do live art on the thing and submit, like, submit drawings and all that. And right now, like, I've tried to be clear, like, in writing, like, this is a co-stewarded piece of art. Like, you know, if you submit it, you have creative authority over its final, like, what it looks like, like final cut. But you don't actually own it yourself. It's co-owned by all of us because you were working off what was being said and you were invited and you said yes. So, like—

Yeah.

both worlds. Like, we're not going to release one of these playing cards with your painting until you feel good about it. But at the same time, you don't really own that piece on your own in a silo where you can— you should be going off and selling it to Christie's auction on behalf of Microsoft or something. Like, you're supposed to be a yes. Now that, that's not yet a legal, like, you know, a legal agreement. So first I'm just experimenting, bootstrapping. I'm sure some of it will not work out and some people will change their minds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, my next, my next iteration, like, my next step, for example, is I'm going to do an interview, like, on Zoom recorded with people, and I'm gonna be like, are you sure you want to submit this piece of art? Here's the terms and conditions we know about. Here's what is emergent we don't know about. Can you roll with that or not? And at least get them on video saying like, yes, I understand. Yes, this painting Here's my painting.

Right.

So I'm going to kind of do it in that methodical way. And then we have these, like, what we call hollow sourcing instead of open or closed sourcing, hollow sourcing. So, like, we're going to have, like, these legitimate kind of, like, written clarity of what is being given and what governance you want over your contribution. Or is it, like, is it being gifted completely where everyone can use it or manipulate it? Or do you want to have the final cut? I can say that stuff's in the field and we're gonna stumble and trip the first go at it, you know. But like a year from now when we have our first platform up that can actually do hollow sourcing with smart contracts and we have onboarding, and like, I feel really confident that we're gonna crack, crack that all together. Yeah.

So I think one element of how these, these, these talks will continue is I'll be asking you stuff about that because I have a lot of clarity of the future, the philosophical underpinnings, but not the mechanical underpinnings of how these different technologies work. Like when you say Holosourcing, I don't immediately go, oh yeah, I get that in the same way that I understand how a blockchain works. Right.

So yeah, in the future, our framework, our, it's our protocol for sharing value, basically.

Got it.

Instead of open sourcing or closed sourcing, Because we're not really fans of strictly open source because there's a lot of issues with— that are not cool about open source. There's a lot of dogma in the software world around open source, and I can— we'll share that another time. But so we're looking to transcend include open and closed. There's always something next that includes the previous stuff. So—

That's true.

So we come up with our own framework, and eventually we'll create our own license And Holochain, like, has created their own license for something. So as we get more resources and more people in the space, like lawyers and blah blah blah, I think we'll codify our blueprints in such a way that it's more official in that sense.

Right, it'll have to be. And it's good just to know that I have the trust of the system working so that I can do the thing that's fun for me without having to think, you know, We're gonna go on the best ride. I don't have to worry about like, is the engine working for the car? You know what I mean? And how does it work? I am interested though. Like, I'm just interested in that. And I feel like that can inform the narrative because I think a lot of the frameworks and the narratives that are constructed are gonna be meeting people where they're at. Money can only exist this way or value can only exist this way. And then bringing them along the story of But what if it was this way? And then what would happen? What kind of conflicts would result from that? And then how would you become integrated with this new way? It's basically propaganda. Totally creating empowering propaganda, essentially.

It is what it is. Absolutely. Right on. Awesome, Chris, man. What a great day. Night. Yeah, day-night.

I love that, uh, our conversation turned into what it turned into. I kind of figured that was going to happen, but it happened in even such a better way than I thought. And, um, just sad it's over. So until, until next time.

Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll message you tomorrow. I want to actually definitely actually put something back on the calendar so we have something in mind that's not too far away. So I'm down with that.

Yeah. Do you want to say anything that's off? I guess, off recording about the process of this, or are we going to keep it all on recording because it's an ultimately transparent world where nobody has any privacy of any kind?

Well, I don't know.

I'm just kidding.

I don't— yeah, I don't specifically have anything I need to say off recording.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it is what it is, right? It's like your performative self and your real self like merged together. Like, this is the— in the paradigm in the future is that people say what they mean in aligned ways no matter what context they're in. And it can be recorded and, and distributed, but those are the people that will, I think, rise up in terms of influence of the paradigm. More duplicitous people who say different things at different times to different people, um, I feel like will get kind of like socially pushed out of the conversation.

Yeah. So yeah, I'm pretty much all, I'm pretty much all in. I mean, I try to be sensitive if I can to something, but sure, nothing I really wouldn't say live that I wouldn't say normally.

Exactly. Yeah, I think so. Same. So no juicy tidbits for the listeners.

Oh well.

No, like accidental recordings. Yeah, that's a fun thing to do though, is, is say to somebody like, hey, Hey, we're done recording, and then you stop, and then you hit record again and see what happens. I've done that a couple times. You get another level of intimacy because of that mental shift that happens.

A lot of people— I didn't— it's kind of foreign to me as an extrovert and authentic, kind of fairly fearless on this level person. Most people do it as soon as I put the camera on. They cannot relax. They just have this whole idea, like, I'm on camera now and I have to be different. And it's like, I, I could, I could empathize with that, but for me personally, camera on, camera off, literally, yeah, I don't think it had— it has the tiniest bearing, like, if any. Only sometimes. Most people, I thought— I couldn't believe how uncomfortable they really felt. They couldn't slip back into being themselves just thinking that the camera might be on. And it—

Right.

There's something deeper there. Like, next time— there's something deeper there for me. Like, that's interesting that people have such a thing with reveal, like, that they'll be seen, or, or like this imaginary external thing. I don't know, I always find it very odd. I mean, I know I'm quite— I'm, I am an actor in that way, or performer. I don't mind.

Yeah.

I mean, so I have to, I have to acknowledge that I have a natural ability and enjoyment of, right, of being like live or whatnot. But I still think it's quite unusual and interesting how people are just not able to be themselves, even in a friendly way. Like, even if we're not planning on putting it out, I just put my camera on my phone and all of a sudden they can't lose their train of thought and they can't finish what they were saying. And I'm like, I'm not even gonna put this on YouTube or anything. They're just like, it's so intimidating. Yeah, but by being recorded, as if it's just— I don't know what that's all about.

I'm with, I'm with you. I have the opposite thing, which is once I'm recorded, now I bring my full self because it's like, now I will be able to listen to this later. So like, I want to, I want to say all the It like brings something out of me. It like brings— like the performative self is, I guess, a confident self that believes in their like perfect articulation of words. And so I just kind of embody that, but it feels like the real me in a sense, which is why I've always wanted to perform, because I feel like when I perform, I connect to my best self, which is maybe— that's an interesting thing to consider.

Yeah.

But I won't open that loop for Thumbs up to performative self.

Yeah, right.

We usually think it's a bad thing, but I think, I think the performative self is incredible as long as it's aligned with— it's not from a place of disconnecting from the rest of you or, or hiding something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Cool.

Well, how do you know this is just gonna have to—

on the island?

Thanks, man. You too, in the farm, in the field. And we'll, uh, we'll talk again. We'll talk again soon. I can't wait.

Yeah. All right, take care of yourself, man.

Yeah, man, you too. Later.

Peace. Bye.