Is Our Worship Becoming Too Showy? A Candid Talk with Terry Mackey |

Hey, everybody, it's Justin. Welcome to Made for Mondays. I'm so glad you tuned in with us today. No matter what platform you're on, if you're watching us on YouTube or listening to us on Spotify or Apple, I'm so glad you're tuned in with us. Please be sure to hit that subscribe button and turn on notifications, if you would, on YouTube so we can connect with you. As you know, Made for Mondays is about you owning your Mondays. We don't rent Mondays, and Mondays don't own us. We own our Mondays. Today I'm so privileged to have a very special guest with us, Pastor Terry Mackey. And so stay tuned as we dive into what it means to be Made for Mondays. Welcome back. Welcome back to Made for Mondays. I'm so happy to have with us today a very special guest here in California with me in Pastor Terry Mackey from Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome, man.

Man, it is a plump, pleasing pleasure to be with you, Jeff.

Yes, sir, man. It's an honor. And it's such a. Such a joy to, like I said on our revival night, watch you from afar for so long and to engage with your ministry from afar, man. And so to see you up close and meet you up close, man, and just to. To see the joy you have for people in the ministry, man, it's so awesome.

Same here. Likewise.

Yes, sir.

Following you as well. Since you've made the pilgrimage here to friendship and watching you grow and mature and the church being able to fall in line with the vision, it has just been phenomenal to be your brother from a state away in Arizona. So just pleased with the work that's going on here at French.

Thank you. Man, I forget how big California is. We are neighbors. Yes. I'm getting used to it, man.

Yes, we are.

So tell me about you. What's your journey like? Who is Terry Mackey, man?

Terry Mackey is a down home brother. Got it. I was born and raised in Memphis, Tennessee. I am the son of a pastor, pk. I remember how the Lord began to work in our life. It was through vacation Bibles.

Oh, wonderful.

When I was about six years old, one of the ladies in the church asked me to sing a song and I sung this little light of mine. I'm going to let it shine. And so she said, you have a wonderful voice. Told my mom, who was the choir director, I had really never sung at home. My dad sang with a quartet group, so singing was in both sides of my family, but I just really never did it at home. So when she found out about it, she told my mom, you need to hear your son.

Really.

And so when my mom made me sing at home, my very first solo was I've Got a Mind to Live For Jesus. All. All of my days.

Wow.

I wasn't even saved yet. But I didn't realize that my mom was planting the seed of salvation in me through that song.

Got it.

And now being a preacher who's now preached. Started preaching at the age of 13.

Wow.

And start pastoring my first church. I used to work at Wheeler Avenue as, you know, as youth pastor there. In 2007, 2010, I became the senior pastor of Wrightsville Mount Oliver Baptist Church in Houston. And then I was called in December of 2019 to Pilgrim Rest Baptist Church right down the street in Phoenix. And so I always looked at the fact that my very first solo was I've Got a Mind to Live for Jesus. And now here I am, cultivating the mind of people to live for this, man.

That's full circle, man. Full circle. That's a very unique way of doing that.

Yeah.

There's two things I have from that. First of all. Okay. Memphis, man.

Yeah.

I got family in Binghamton.

What?

Yeah, man.

Oh, my Lord.

My dad grew up in a church. Early Grove Baptist Church.

Yes.

Herman Powell.

Yes.

Her.

Dr. Herman Powell. Yeah. One of. He. He was one of the first preachers that I learned what expository preaching was. Was about.

I still got old tapes.

Oh, yeah. He would expose the text, for sure.

Man, oh, man, that is such a small world. Yeah. Binghamton. And I got family. Nelly Lester down there. Kim Lester down there. Wow. My father's Anthony Lester down there.

Wow.

Yeah, man. Memphis. We used to make that go there at least two times a year growing up.

Oh, yeah.

And, yeah, my dad went to Early Grove Baptist Church, and then we would always do some stuff with New Salem.

Oh, yeah, man. Dr. Frank Ray.

Yeah, man. That's such a small world.

Without a doubt, we're all connected.

Yeah, man. That is such a.

Like you said in Vallejo, as it is in heaven, it's connected for sure.

That's it. I do from that. So for me, too, I've transitioned from Rhode island here, and to hear that you transitioned from Texas to Arizona. For pastors who are listening to this, for young preachers who are at that space where they sense God tugging them in spite of what they love to do, in spite of where they are. What was your process to say yes to Pilgrim Rest spite of. Like, I saw some of the videos when you were when you were departing from Riceville, in spite of your. Not in spite. Along with your love for where you started, how were you able or how can you assist or suggest to young pastors on saying yes to something when it starts pulling you and tugging you?

Well, first of all, I would say you have to be clear that this is what God wants you to do.

Got it.

As opposed to what you want to do. And so when I felt the tug, Pilgrim Rest called me out to preach in August of 2019. I was doing great at the church where I currently was serving. I was finally getting my hands on the things. I think it's one statement that I learned is that when people call you to a church and they do not. And I want you to hear me, Pastor. When a church calls you, they don't call you to be the pastor. They call you to become the pastor.

Wow.

And. And it took me a long time to find that out.

Wow.

Because every church, there is a litmus test that you must pass.

Yeah.

Before they turn over the reins and trust you.

That's.

So as a pastor, it may be a few funerals you have to have. It may be because there's. In every church, there's always a pastor in the Pew 100. And if that person finally gets on your side, maybe then, yeah, you become. But you have to find out what it is, what the route is going to take for you to actually not become their preacher, but to become their pastor. Wow. And sometime that takes a storm, Sometime it takes protest. There are different avenues to get there. But please know on day one, you are not of that church. These people have been serving this church. A lot of stuff happened before you got here. And a lot of. Of younger pastors, we do not. And you were preaching about this Sunday. I went back and listened to what you talked about. We have to understand that for some people, their preferences are their priority, 100%. Not. Not the other way around.

Yeah, man.

And so you have to. You have to get that. You have to do your reconnaissance as a pastor to get to know what those things are. One of my favorite statements is that as a pastor, every church has sacred cows, but every sacred cow can now become a hamburger.

That's so real. That's so real, man.

You gotta figure out, okay, I'm gonna leave that alone for now. I'm gonna let God deal with that one. Maybe. Unless God has given me the wherewithal to deal with that particular issue. But I would say be very clear that you are going where God wants.

You to get God, that's real.

I asked God to send me confirmation. Whenever God wants you to do something, he will send confirmation. After confirmation, after confirmation. Going back to the story, I. I went there to preach. I was not candidate.

Yeah.

They just heard about me preaching, and so I just went to fill in the pulpit that Sunday in August. By December, I had become pastor of the church because God was already dealing with me about moving.

Wow.

I was in my eighth year at Riceville, and if you know biblical numerology seven is complete, eight is new beginning 100%. So I thought it was going to just be, you know, God was going to do a renaissance at the church because things were finally falling into place. And so I had that particular experience then. One of my. He was my youth pastor who had become a senior pastor. And he just kept telling me, pastor, Lord, keep showing me these dreams that you're in a larger church. And whatever. This church, it has palm trees around it. I don't know anything about it, but has palm trees around it. So when I went to preach at Pilgrim Rest, when I turned down 15th street, it's just this long, beautiful row of palm trees. I took a picture, sent it to him. He said, are we wearing robes or castings to your installation now? I have not even. I have not said anything in the church yet. I'm outside taking a picture on the street.

Yeah.

And so. And there were so many other things that God did to confirm that it was time for me to make that transition. And if I could just sum it up, I have learned where God guides, He provides.

That's real.

Where he leads, he feeds.

Yeah, man.

Where he directs, he protects.

Wow, man.

And that's what I keep.

Wow. And the doors of the church are open. That's real, man. I remember the same. Like, very, very similar. I agree with all of that. And I just remember in that transition period for me personally, too, what it meant to be like, man, I'm good. But I just remember the moment the Lord woke me up in the middle of the night and began to show me this entire area.

Wow.

And I literally drew it out. It's actually in my office, and we have a capital campaign starting here next year for some facility work. And the Lord showed me that. And I remember telling my wife, and she was like, what's going on? And I said, the Lord showed me this. And in 2008, never forget, the Lord said, you're going to pastor in California. And so when I heard this, I.

Literally, all the way in 2008, just.

Before I even Like, I was running away from the Lord. I was like, I don't want to do this. I grew up as a pk. I'd seen Negroes. And so I was like, God, I'll be an attorney. I don't want to just resonate the Lord. So you'll pass from California. And so when this came up, I forwarded to my wife. I never forget that night. She texted me back. She was like, well, we're moving to California. She just knew it immediately. And so the moment I stepped here, no matter what we were dealing with at the time, I knew, like, no, this is where I'm going to be. This is where God has called us to be. And you're right, man. When God sends you, he's. He's. It's his. It's his bride.

And. And let me add this to. For the pastor that may be transitioning, you have to trust that as God has made it clear to you, he will make it clear to your spouse that's real. Because it has to be. Especially when you. When you have a family, it has to be a team effort. You don't want to go into the new church, and you dragging your wife.

And dragging your children want to go. That's so real.

One of my good friends, Pastor George Parks, he just made another transition to metropolitan. So, so excited about it. So he's going through that right now. But let me tell you how I knew and I forgot. I don't even know how I missed this. How the Lord made it clear to my wife that we were going. We had Justin. We had just moved into our dream house in Houston. My wife, we had finally got the furnishings.

Yeah, man.

I mean, my wife had custom drapes. I mean, things we thought were finally falling place for us in Houston until this opportunity to pilgrim shows up. So I'm ministering somewhere during a revival, and before I get on the plane, my wife calls me. I'm about to send you something on your phone. Look at it. And called me back. I looked at it and I looked at it. It was my predecessor's bio.

Yeah.

All three of my children's names are in his bio.

Wow.

Micah, my oldest son, he had a son named Micah.

Wow.

My middle son, Timothy, he had a brother named Timothy.

Yeah.

My little girl Barbara. His mother's name is Barbara.

Wow.

And then his mom's name is Barbara Thomas. That's my mother in law's name. Wow.

Man.

So I'm like, I mean, how much clearer can it be? And so when I was doing a skype for my interview with Pilgrim. They said, pastor, we don't mean to be nosy, but we see a lot of boxes behind you.

Yeah.

I said, I know you all still have hundreds of candidates to apply, but the Lord has already told us that we're going. And so these are boxes because we're packing. Wow. But we haven't sent you a card. I said, you are not understanding. I've been on this faith journey enough to know when God confirms his will over and over. I'm just waiting for you.

That's 100%. That's 100%, man.

And, man, one of the guys there that day says, when I saw your faith. Faith walk, that you were already packing.

Yeah, man, I was.

The. The house was half packed before they sent the movers. Wow.

That is.

I mean that when you know for sure God is sending direction to you, you can rest in that 100%.

You can rest 100%. And I think one of the things, man, that I. I came to. Covid. Did this to me.

Okay.

Was. Is I stopped preaching about faith and be. Can to be a person who had faith.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I think so often we were preaching about these things, and I'm. Have faith, trust them, take a step on the water, and then it's like, no, I have to be someone who does it. And I think that's one thing I've been challenging, like, even some of the colleagues, like, it's one thing for us to preach this stuff, but we got to do it. We got to live it, man. It can't just be heroes. We got to be doers. Right. And I think that so often we get so caught up in, like, the aura and the allure of the pulpit that we miss out on actually, like you just said, man, like, nah, this is what the Lord said. And I don't care how crazy it sounds, but I'm going to jump into it. And if. If I jump into the water, if he don't raise it up. Yeah. Or lower it down. Oh, yeah.

It's a thin line between faith and foolishness.

That's it. That's it.

It's a thin line between faith and foolishness. And the only way to know that it's faith and not foolishness is to know that God said it in and you did.

That's so real. As you've grown and as you develop, man, and even looking at your whole journey and your preaching, I'm curious, man, how has your. How has your preaching evolved? Your philosophy of preaching evolved as You've gotten a closer father, husband, close relationship with God. I'm curious, man. On the evolution and growth of your preaching from like, you know, obviously not even beginning, just the last 10 years.

Yes.

Yeah.

I would say, man. I've always. I've always been given to the word preach. I forget what preacher. It was years ago. He said, if you take the word preach and you take the P off preach, it spells reach.

Wow, that's so real.

He says, then if you take the R off reach, it spells each. So he said, we have to preach, preach to reach each.

That's so real.

And just like you're saying, everybody's welcome, nobody's perfect, and anything's possible. When you realize that the words that come out of your mouth, people are making life and death decisions.

So real, man.

Off of what we say behind.

That's so real, man.

And so when I realized the impact at any import of the preaching moment, it forces me to prepare myself.

That's right.

I've always lived by the five Ps. Proper preparation prevents poor performance. That's so real. So I go by the five E's, the five C's. I believe that every person who works in ministry, every Christian. The first C is you have to strive to be Christian. You have to strive to be courteous. You have to be committed. Whatever God has placed you in, you have to be competent in that area. And there's some stuff you're gonna have to be confidential about that's real. There are some things that happens that you don't need to be running to tell everybody. So I go by the five C's, the five P's, and the five E's. Exalt the Savior through worship. Enlighten the unsaved through evangelism. Equip the saints through discipleship. Embrace all generations through fellowship, and elevate humanity through mission. So those are those. That's kind of my framework ministry. But in terms of preaching, going back to preach, to reach each, I guess. In my doctoral work, I was looking at human sex trafficking.

Okay.

It is becoming beyond drug. Drug trafficking, sex trafficking, and labor trafficking is the second highest in terms of profit.

Yeah.

Drug dealers are finding out that it's more profitable to use people because you can recycle them.

Wow.

As opposed to a drug or product, you have to always be looking for new sellers. And so now people are. I can make more money just recycling the person.

Yeah.

For the same work.

Yeah, man.

And so that's why a lot of drug dealers are finding it business from A business standpoint, it's just economically more advantageous for you to use people rather than products or use people as products. Slavery taught us all about. Yeah, man. So with human trafficking, I was saying, well, how in the world am I going to be able to preach this?

Yeah.

That we have young ladies and young men. Because I didn't really become aware of this. This pandemic until we had a screening at our church called Blind Eyes Open, that it's young ladies probably and young men right now in this church that are. Are being used by traffickers 100 and a lot of times the traffickers are family members, and a lot of times they're in the church and they use the church as a smokescreen for that type of activity. But I kept saying I was. So I was going to do my doctoral project on. On innovative children's ministry because I believe that in order to get the family.

You have to get the child 100%.

And so if we cater a lot of what we do to getting the child, the family will come, just like they said. If you build it, they will come. No, you get the child, they will.

Come, especially the father.

Yeah, exactly. So all of this going on, and I said, well, how am I going to preach this? This needs to be preached. And so I was going through some of my old Aristotelian appeals, some of the Aristotle's appeals and persuasive speaking, universal truth.

Yeah.

And so, you know, he talks about logos, the information, and he talks about pathos that you have to create a feeling that you have to. That in order for the. The listener to take you serious, you must create engagement with them where they feel what you're saying. And then of course, there's ethos that deals with the speaker's credibility. But I turned it around to say that because that not only we have to deal with the speaker's credibility, but the listener's credibility as well as a person. And so now in every sermon, I try to utilize those. At least those three got it. The logos, that's doing your homework. The pathos, am I making a connection with the person? Because, you know, a lot of times, let's be honest, the downfall in expository preaching is it can become just a data dump that's so real, it could become a regurgitation of facts, but it has no feeling that's so real. You know, okay, you got the information, but have you made it relatable to what I'm dealing with in my present country? So I always ask the question, pathos, logos, and then ethos. What am I at? There should be a claim upon the sermon. There should be a deed to do in every sermon.

That's so real.

And so I try to make sure that my. My sermon falls to hit those particular areas of logos, pathos and ethos, man.

That's so real, man. I think that's what's awesome. And the crazy thing, I'm teaching ethics right now, this semester, so you're bringing this up to, like, we can get it to, like, we could get us. I'm like, because that's where Aristotle distanced from Socrates.

Yeah, right. The sacrament. You were talking about the Socratic master.

All he wanted to do is just question, question, question, question, question. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. And I think where he missed it and where he ruined his marriage. All he did was ask questions.

Not enough answers.

Then Plato's like, man, you're weird. And then. And watched him die and. And then Aristotle comes along. He said, man, and he's like, home. There has to be this level of humanity, right? The Logos, pathos and ethos, man. And actually grabbing people and holding them instead of just constant inquiry. Right? And that's where the academy is. I'm sitting down, like, this is exciting. My students, literally, my students yesterday, we were having this whole conversation on Aristotelian argumentative methods, right? And none of them want to do Socratic. Once they learned about Aristotle, they were like, do we have to. To do. And I had preachers in the class, man, who were struggling because they were like, my whole career I've been taught, like, I was like 40, 50 years old. My whole career, I've been taught, you got to preach the Socratic method.

Yeah.

Because. Well, that was very. Not. That was proctor. Right. The whole Socratic, you know, proposition subject, these systems that. This is 1, 2, 3, if you will. Celebrate, celebrate number three. Yeah. And they're over here like, yeah, you know, what is this? Like, how can we use this to actually prove. Prove a point. Yeah. And to teach us how to live a point. Right, Right. And that's where, like, even, like, same way, man. My preaching has shifted drastically. Like, this series we're doing is a lot different, but outside of that, normal is observation, interpretation, application. What does it say? What does it mean? You got to do something.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. If that. I was joking with someone earlier. Like, if the sermon doesn't call you to do something, that's the path. That's preacher's fault. Yeah. Because. Yeah. If that. That Jesus never left, just made you feeling good. It was like, if you're gonna walk on water, no, this is what you got to do, buddy.

Don't fall again.

Yeah, yeah.

I even tell people, if you just want a real layman's terms of ethos, pathos, logos. Logos is the what? Yep. The pathos is so what. And ethos is now what.

That's so real.

That is so real. You got to build your case with the what. Then you've got to engage them to make the point. All right, all this. So what? Why is this important?

Yeah, man.

And that's where you pull on people's hearts and then, all right, what are we now going to do with the information that we need?

And I think to every young preacher listening to this, that's one of the things, like, even you're mentioning, that is you evolve into that when you recognize that there's something about. Like, for me personally, there was something about. I used to pride myself on shouting folk. I remember my first church. I got to this old preacher. I mean, oh, I should have known he had a storefront, but he was always. And Justin, it's revival every Sunday. And so I'm thinking, like, oh, I bet. Because I forget, like, revivals, you remind people of their sin, call them to repent, and you shout that God gives you repentance. And so it's like, literally, like evangelism, right? And I was like, there's a difference between the sheepdog and the shepherd.

Yeah, yeah.

And when I got up, my first, like, six months of my first church, man, I mean, it was just E flat every Sunday, right? Just every Sunday. E flat, E flat, Turn the corner. I mean, you just do it like, 1, 2, 3. Alliteration. Turn the corner. And it wasn't until I began to see, like, man, we were. We were. We were growing. We were swelling and all growth isn't good growth, right?

And we were swelling.

It was cancerous. And when I popped some cancer, and it was like, great, man. All this yelling, screaming, Nobody remembers anything. Like, every week, man, we eat flat. I mean, just. I'm sweating through suits, robes. I'm on the floor.

Oh, yeah.

And then I got to a point where I was like, I can still do that, but I've never asked you to actually, like, how do you participate in transformation? And so what you're saying there is so powerful, and I hope those of you who are listening grab a hold of what Pastor Mackie's talking through, that it's so important that our people that we're leading, if we're going to shepherd them. Well, they've got to know that we're going to protect you as the gate. We got to get someplace, right? And that's so powerful, man. I'm curious too. So with that, so we're calling people to do something. We're compelling them, we're challenging them. So I believe Sunday morning is the perfect picture of everything, right? It's two hours of concentrated Jesus time. I joke all the time in my church. I'm like, you guys came, you brushed your teeth for the first time all week, you washed your legs, right? I mean, it's just wonderful stuff. Sunday is the perfect picture because everything, everything is good. My kids are good, my life is good. I'm worshiping with my parents. Multi generational. It's the picture of what we want black communities to be. The unfortunate reality is we say amen at the benediction, Emails, my text messages, life, parents, I gotta go back to the hospital to visit so and so or Monday morning comes and this whole podcast is based upon that, like made for Mondays. I go to Monday and on Monday I gotta go to work, gotta take my kid to school. I gotta pay bills. I gotta deal with my body. Gotta go work out. We preached hard on Sunday. We prepare for 40, 50 hours a week to get these sermons done. We get these sermons on Sunday, give our hearts to people. And how would you challenge the average layperson? We have a lot of leaders that listen to this as well. Like leaders who were. How can they apply what we talked about on Sunday to their daily walk on Monday? And I'm curious to hear from you, man. Like, how can someone take their pastor's sermon and make it live when conflict or good moments hit them at work?

I think that's where prayer comes in.

Okay, you.

We can become so enamored with the cares of life that we fail to keep the main thing, the main thing so real. And we a lot of times dismiss the Holy Spirit's work in helping us to fulfill godly aims or our purpose in life. One of the scriptures that I love to quote all the time is about, if we didn't have the Spirit's help to do what we do, we wouldn't be able to do what we do. And so I do think that it's imperative that people pray for the Spirit leading, pray for the Spirit's guiding, and even going back to what you said Sunday, the Holy Spirit, that's it. Will bring it back, that's it. To your remembrance. But I tell people all the time, the Holy Spirit's job is to bring it back. So he can't bring it back if you didn't put it in.

That's so real, man.

And so that brings me to the next point is meditation. I believe that every Christian ought to take some time to go. That's what I do with a lot of sermons that I'm listening to or books I'm reading is I go back and make sure I take it out of my. My short term memory and put it in my long term memory.

That's so real.

And the only way that can happen. The key to retention is repetition.

That's so real.

And so you have to constantly get that into your mind. Just like you're studying for a test. You're going to have to really meditate on it. And that's why it's key in Psalm 1, when he said, meditate on it day and night, Day and night. It ought to be something you're thinking about when you first start the day and something you're thinking about as you conclude the day.

That's awesome.

And just see how. How has that word helped me through the living of my day every day of the week? So that's what I use. I try to do meditation twice a day. Something in the morning, something in the eat. And it doesn't have to be. I've learned you don't have to spend an hour, 30 minutes every day meditating. I don't think we. With so much that we have going on, we don't have the time. I think that people there can. Great multitasking. I know you were talking about working out. I work out several times a week. And I try. If my trainer's not trying to force me to do something I don't want to do, I'm able to listen to a sermon. Yeah, I'm learning the importance, importance of being able to multitask. If I'm driving, maybe I can listen to points of power as I'm driving. You know, something where I can. I can do if I'm cooking. My wife just started her mass. Well, she's about to finish her master's, thank God. And so in this different season of our marriage, I'm doing a lot of the cooking. Yeah, I'm doing a lot. So now if I'm cooking, maybe I could listen to a podcast or maybe I can listen to something while I'm cooking that's real, you know, so just learning the value of multitasking.

That's awesome, man. You mean to tell me, man, that pastors, we don't just all we do is not just sit on.

And I love to cook.

That's where my safe place. Like, one time, my team texted me something, and I text in the back a picture of my grill. I said, let me tell you something. I will be available in six hours. Like, Steve is in the room. You guys don't see Steve off camera, but, like, I'll sit. Like, my team on Saturdays, they'll know I'm alive, man. When I send a picture of meat. Like, I got a tri tip marinade right now. I'm like, I will live on a grill. And my wife is laughing because I was gone for a conference last week, and I kept testing. Did y' all eat? Did y' all eat? Just as I cook it, man. So, like, no. We have lives, man. This is.

So you're the cook in the house?

I'm the cook, man.

Okay.

That's my kitchen. I told her. I said, she can have the whole house. Get my kitchen and room for my Xbox. That's it. As long as I got those two things, that's cool. I'm good, man. No, that is awesome, man. No, Pastor, thank you for this. I think this is so insightful. Last thing I will bring is part of kind of a selfish question. And I thought about it as you were talking, so I. One of the things I love is technology, right? And so that's just my. Like, my doctorate work was in gamifying black churches, right? And how we bring gamification education into black church spaces for renewal. And right now, the next big thing about to come for us, those of you for friendship listening, is augmented reality, right? And actually bringing AR to bring immersive experiences of the church to the world. And right now, you can see some things in our stage, and we're gonna continue to evolve our stage. And I'm curious how you would suggest to people like me and other young leaders. I don't want to do it wrong, right? But I recognize at Pilgrim Rest, that was a massive transformation from not just your predecessor to what traditional black church looked like to LED screens and everything on the stage, the pulpit, all of that. What would you suggest to pastors like me, other young pastors across the screen who see that the led, the lights, the camera, the action on how to lead that. Well, as you know, to me, it's a piece of wood, which is somebody. My grandma took an extra mortgage out on her house. To me, it's a pulpit. To them, it's. I took another job to help the church pay for that, right? So I'm Curious. What would you suggest to us, man, to lead the most visible part of their sanctuary in changing to lead that?

Well, I would say that in pastoring multi generational churches in my last, both of my pastors have been multi generational churches. I would say say Pilgrim Rest was more open.

Got it.

To the change. Our church is the largest African American church in the entire state.

Got it.

And so there's a different kind of understanding that our church sees itself as cutting edge.

Got it.

Flagship church.

Got it.

We have to be willing to go places that some churches may not be willing to go. So I think that helped me a great deal, the culture of the church. I didn't have to pull as many teeth when I brought the vision.

Got it.

Like, okay, great, let's do it. We've been, Wait, we've been. When I talked to our elders, they were saying, we've been waiting.

Got it.

To do something like this. So I didn't, I didn't have to pull as many teeth, but if I did, for those where it may be a little bit more cumbersome than that, one of the things that you have to do is get the stakeholders on board.

Got it. Got it.

You got to get the stakeholders, there's pastors in the pews, and once you get them on board to what the vision is, then they can tell their members.

So funny, but so real.

Then they, they, they'll, they'll begin slowly but surely to, to come up with supporting the next phase. Yeah, I think too is one of the things I learned from James Meeks, who used to be the pastor at Salem. What Dr. Charlie Banks is now is that he said, as a pastor, you cannot be afraid to pray. Preach the announcements.

That's real.

What I took, what I took by that is we spend so much time on, okay, we want to go serve over here.

Yeah.

But we never preach about why it's important to do that. Yeah, we, we, we, we, we like to talk about different causes that we want to support. But is your preaching reflective of the announcement Jesus Christ.

Christ.

And so what? What? And so I've always taken that our church, this Sunday, we are about to partner with World Vision to. I'll be going to Rwanda, my wife and I next week to sponsor a village Isagara Rwanda. And this was something new for our church, you know, because some people are saying, well, you want me to spend $40 a month for the next four years? And we got children right down the street could benefit from this money. But I had to explain to them our church is taking a multi approach where we're just not focusing on children.

Yeah, man.

In fingers.

Which we do.

Yeah, we're just not focusing on children in our state, which we do. We're focusing on the entire world.

That's so real.

And so the Acts 1 and 8 model. So, so, so this past month I've been preaching. Yeah, that's the announcement. We're going to World Vision. But I have been preaching and teaching about what it means to be blessed, to be a blessed.

That's so real.

I said. We say this all the time.

Yeah, man.

It's a good, It's a good aphorism. It's a. It's a good cliche in many of our churches. But are we living.

That's so real.

And so, you know, and then I think too, in our preaching, we have to realize in Mark 4, where it says Jesus never taught anything without a parable.

That's it.

People have. You have to. They have to be able to see it.

That's so real.

And I think parables, illustrations, paint pictures that our mere words cannot do.

That's so real.

I think that's why Jesus used it.

Yeah.

Because it was. It's still the most effective method if you can paint those pictures. Stories can do things you talked about, engagement, pathos, logos, ethos, all in one particular element.

It's the story that's so real.

And so I've. I told stories, illustrations. I don't know if you heard the illustration about the Red Sea and the, The Jordan river, the Dead Sea and the Jordan River.

No.

How both of them are, you know, bodies of water. The Jordan. The Jordan river is fed from the mountain of Mount Hebrew, the snow, Mount Hebrew. It feeds into the Jordan River. The Jordan river flows into the Dead Sea. The reason why the Jordan river is the largest fresh lake of galaxy. The Sea of Galilee flows into the Jordan River. The Sea of Galilee is the largest fresh water body of water in Israel. The reason why it's so vibrant is because it's giving. It gives to the Jordan river, but when it gets to the Dead Sea, the Dead Sea has no outlet.

That's so real.

That's why it's called the Dead Sea. That's so real because it's not giving anything away. And I asked the question, how many of us are Sea of Galilee Christians?

Yeah, man. Yeah, man.

And how many of us are dead? See, Christians, when we're only taking.

That's so real.

And we wonder why so many areas of our life are lifeless is because there's no Outlet.

There's no outlet.

And so you've got to preach the announcement.

That's so real.

And that. That's what I've been striving to do.

That's awesome.

And. And it's been. I think it's been working very well. Yeah, working very well. So you got to preach those announcements. And so when it comes back to that. Another quote I would probably close with is Bishop Paul S. Morton. He says you have to date the method but marry the vision.

That's so real.

And so. And we can take that in context of building.

Yeah, man.

Everything we see in this building 50 years from now probably won't be at all.

We.

We can know we can't date the building.

Yeah, man.

I mean we have to date the building and marry the vision.

That's so real.

And so. And then different generations calls for different things.

That's it.

I think Gary McIntosh's book is a. It's a must if you're leading multi generation ministry. Where he. The title of the book One Size does not Fit All.

Yeah, man, it doesn't.

That's one of the biggest lies ever told.

Yeah, we read that last year. Have you read this other one, Taking Church to the Next Level.

No, no, no, no.

Oh my God.

Okay, I'll pick it up.

Oh my God. Let me tell you right now, that book, I read that in March. I had to repent or something. Cuz he wrote that as a second and like to do that and yeah, no, that take like we as a team coming out of COVID we read One Size Ones Fit all and because I've read that, I love.

Right, right, right.

Because I didn't recognize he's the, the seed holder for Transformation in Oklahoma. Yeah. And so it's just like, I'm like you, I'm like, listen, I saw what's happening at Transformation. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna read this. This man know what he talk about. He knows that's so. No, because for us being in our space like so not only this, but because of the expansion we own so much and there's facilities we're looking to build across the way. And next year is the beginning of our capital campaign and so I'm probably going to cut part of this out and talk about the Red Sea because there's going to be a whole series like, wait, what? And I'm like, that is so powerful. But it's so real. It just in my head thinking geographically, like, no, that's the reason behind it. Like, yeah, there's all these things died in the dead Sea. There is no outlet to it. That's. I'm like, sitting here like, yeah, that's a whole, like, January is our series. Building blocks.

Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, yeah.

I love that, man. No, thank you for your time, man.

It's a joy.

Yeah. If people wanted to connect with you or follow your work, man, how can they find you online? On socials.

On socials. Some of us, my handles, of course, you can always go to our church website, www.pilgrim rest phx.com and all of our information is there. On Facebook, I'm just Terry Mackey. You can direct. Direct message me. My wife checks my dm. So if you want. Hey, so we good Terry Mackey there then on social media, on Instagram, Twitter, it's just Terry Emacky. Oh, look at.

Awesome. You're not on TikTok yet, man.

You know what? I need to get on TikTok. I need to. We need to bring some holiness.

It's a dark place. I was at this. This conference I was at. We were talking about crypto.

Yeah.

We were talking about Threads and TikTok. And this one guy, I told him who I was. Yeah, I'm a pastor and I'm here for this tech piece. And he said, justin, I'm so glad you're here. It's dark. This is dark. He said, it is so demonic in these different realms. And the people that are having influence on not just like, the next generation, but on people in current generations, they're like, it's so dark. And they were like, you know, so anyway, you can just show, like, they were challenging me with this. Like, this guy literally started praying, like, please don't. Don't run away from the complicated nature of this. He was saying, because cryptocurrency is so dark. Tick tock. Because of the way algorithms are set up, putting sermon clips. Don't go. Don't. Don't get anywhere.

Right.

But actually, the lifestyle lives of our, like, pastors. So, like, I did a day in the life video thing. I went viral twice. Yeah. Day in the life of, like, me. It was 60 seconds on TikTok, and I did not. I literally put it up. Literally, man. Let it go for two days, came back, it was a million views. I was like, yeah, what? Like, I was like. All I did was just like, hey, this is me getting dressed. Here's my kid, here's my wife. Yeah, preach once baptized some people. Preach again. Went home and had 1.1 million views, man. In, like, two days the algorithm got tricked where now they were able to see, like, oh, like there's human. Like, so it's amazing. And this guy was like, yeah, there's. It's dark. Like there's. There's so many demonic forces. People that are manipulating others countries like this whole brick, Britain, Russia, India, China, South Africa getting together, trying to come. Come against what America won't let happen. And it's just like, they're like, yeah, it's dark. And so. Yeah. So if you're looking, any reason to get on TikTok, man, it's dark.

I know it's time to bring some light in a dark place.

So thank you so much, man. Appreciate it. Made for Monday crew. Thank you guys for tuning in today. Remember, we're here every single Monday as we are engaging with Monday. We believe that Mondays don't own you. You own your Mondays. And so I'm so glad you guys are tuned in with us. Stay tuned for us next week. Be sure to like and subscribe and turn, turn those notifications on and we'll see you next week right here on Made for Mondays. You own your Monday. It doesn't own you. Go live today. God bless you.