Leading and Self-Care with Special Guest Camille Lester

So I thought the best thing to do was actually to bring a therapist into the conversation to actually talk about mental health, stability, depression, anxiety, and self care. And so I didn't have to go too far because my sister has her own practice down in New York. New York, New York, New York. And she's a big deal. Holyfield. And so we're grateful to welcome her again to Congan Street. She's been here a number of times and so welcoming her again. Hey, Camille. Welcome back. Hello.

Hello, everybody. I can't wait to see you guys soon when all this Corona stuff dies down. So I'm so happy that you reached out and that I'm here to kind of talk about mental health and what.

It is.

What self care is, what. Yeah, everything.

That's so awesome. Like, you're in the center of Corona too, Auntie Rona. Yeah.

You know, honestly, I think, like, so we're in Harlem, and I just. I feel like a lot of it has, like, we hear a lot of sirens, but I think a lot of the boroughs that are being affected, like the Bronx and Queens, so we're not hearing as much, but it is very grounding to hear all the sirens every couple of minutes.

Jesus. I can. You know, we hear them occasionally here in Providence, but not. I can only imagine, just from the commercials, I've seen what New York is really like. So if you would, though, tell us a little bit about you. So who are you? How did you. How did you get to where you are? Because we're. We just finished a series on habits, and I think it'd be nice to hear for someone like you, we have a lot of amazing college students that are. Where we really challenge them on diving into who they are. And so how did you get to where you are in terms of practice pursuing your PhD, all of that type of stuff? And who are you?

Yeah, so. Well, first and foremost, I'm Justin's little sister. Right. That's always gonna be my title. But so I went to undergrad in Chicago. I went to DePaul University, where I studied psychology and black studies. And then I came back home to Milwaukee, actually, for a little bit and thought I was gonna go to law school. I remember talking to you a lot about it, but it was during, like, Trayvon Martin and all the stuff coming out, and I was just kind of like, I don't know. I don't know if that's, for me, if the law is how I really want to make an impact. I've always been really passionate about black folks So I worked in Child Protective Services for a little bit at Children's Hospital of Wisconsin. And I found it was so like the stories of the moms and of the families that were losing their children, that did lose their children, that was what was most captivating. And spending time with them was really special. So that's what I was like, you know what? Maybe I'll be a therapist. Maybe before people get into the legal system, there's something that I can do. So I went to Marquette University for my master's in clinical mental health counseling. And then I got engaged, moved to New York City, and I started my PhD in developmental psych. Big picture is just to center black folks and black women, specifically birth work and doula. And somehow making a practice at centering black women is the ultimate goal. But I got here because I just wanted to help black people. I mean, it sounds so cliche, but that's really what I wanted to do. And I thought it was law. And it ended up being therapy, and I love it. So.

Yeah, that's awesome. I think it's so important to. I think a notion of care is actually doing what our hearts drive us to do, right? Instead of doing what money always tells us to do. Because when we do what our hearts drive us to do, money, we'll be there, right? And that's something I'm learning. I think we're all learning it with that. So thank you. Thank you. So with all of that, like we said, we just preached on self care. This month we're going into preaching a series on Jonah on what it just all of that, suicide, running away, all of that. And the challenge I have with Jonah is that if Jonah had been in tune with himself from the beginning, he would have just went right to Nineveh, right? And rejoiced and then kept moving. And so I wanna. Before we jump into all of the. I think the fluffy parts of things, I wanna jump back into love your neighbor as yourself. What do you see as some of the challenges in our world and our culture that stops us from caring about who we are, what our heart says, what our soul says, what our mind says. What are some of the challenges here have encountered while we say no to ourselves?

I mean, the first thing that I'm going to say is a very personal answer, which is capitalism. I mean, let's just be clear that, I mean, we. I mean, we have to work to kind of to eat, basically, and we have to do things to survive. And so a lot of the things that I've been Seeing even in the groups that I run here in the city. The last conversation that we had was like, enduring being a black woman in the workplace and how there's been so much stress and depression, anxiety, all the things wrapped up and just surviving, but they're like, no, I have to eat, so I have to do it. And so it's thinking about just the impact of, like, needing to be sustained and the impact on our bodies and our mental health. And so for me, I think it's just the culture that we're in of like, working, being productive, making money, being seen, being noticed, and just surviving that, you know, really impacts our mental health in general. But, like, yeah, I mean, that's what I've been seeing especially is just like wanting to survive and like, move up in the ranks. And that means, you know, having to sacrifice yourself sometimes in the midst of it.

So in all of that, then how can we. Because that's real, right? Because we have to go to work 9 to 5, 8 to 5. Sometimes some of us are going 8 to 5 and then 5 to 9, 5 to 8. Right. So how can we. Or what are tips that you have or suggestions that you might have on how we can practice self care in the midst of a world that's telling us to do it, but then making this work so that we can't do it? Like, how. How can we. Or what would you challenge us? Yeah. What would you challenge us to do in terms of caring for ourselves?

Yeah. So the main thing I've been talking about a lot is that, like, you know, we're existing in a very dysregulated world right now. And so when you think about dysregulation, it's like trying to basically find your footing in an environment that's like, chaotic, which is basically life right now, that like, everything that we've known is no longer or it's changed. We're losing people, we're losing moments. And so I love that you're on this topic because the most beautiful thing that we can do for ourselves is regulate internally, which a lot of folks have been doing is turning inward or like, you know, like figuring out ways to care for themselves in a very revolutionary way. Because all of the stuff that's happening is so external. So the main, the first thing that I wanted to talk about is just remembering your humanness, which is just like, it sounds very cliche, like we're all human, but we are human. And the first thing is that, like, we're all kind of going through grief and the Grief looks different for everybody, but that we're all losing something, whether it's our routine, it could be our favorite coffee shop that we, like, go to, like, you know, get some peace in the middle of a stressful day. Whether it's like, you know, our work buddies, I mean, whatever it is. Or actual life, like, we're all losing something. So it's remembering the fact that we're. We're in a state of collective grief and loss, and it's acknowledging that and letting yourself feel what you need to feel to be human, basically.

Wow. Can you mention that a little about grief? Because I. When it comes to, like, you talk about the loss. Right. I'm. I am. We're grateful that in our congregation, we've had. We've had nobody pass away to Covid. And we've had a couple. We've had one individual and some extended family members who've been affected by it. And I don't look forward to. I pray I don't have to. I'm saying this to the church too. I pray I don't have to preach a funeral on this, but yet we're losing families, loved ones. We're not able to go to the funerals. My friend did a funeral, and literally he preached the whole thing through his AirPods right at the grave site, and people were lined up all the way down the street. And he preached it on a conference call on his AirPods to people because they couldn't go to the church. The funeral homes have regulations, so that's lost the person. But what are some other ways that you are seeing or ways that we can not just cope, but conquer grief in healthy ways, whether it's the loss of a person, jobs, people being furloughed, relationships. I'm reading statistics about the amount of married couples that are sleeping separately now because it's how you got kids losing their parents, kids losing experiences. Because as much as we like, I look back on it like it's prom. But if I think if I'm 16 and I lost my prom, I mean, that is that I've worked hard to think that sucks to get the limo. Or even those who graduated from college like you remember that, like graduating college, your parents, your first gen, especially for us that are black and brown, we got a lot of first gen students. So how can we work through without us just throwing a random graduation. How can we work through conquering and overcoming grief and loss right now without community?

Right, right, right. Well, so the traditional cycle of loss and grief is like, you have the Lost. And there's shock, denial, anger, depression, bargaining and acceptance. But at this point in the game, like, we're kind of. And I sent you the infographic, which maybe you can post while we're talking, but the reality is that it's all very messy, that there's no, like, there's no steps to, like, okay, I lost my job. I'm really angry. I feel sad. Okay, I'm gonna bargain with it, and now I'm better. But it's the fact that we're constantly cycling through stages of grief, like, at rapid paces. So one day you might feel really angry, the next day you might hopeful, and the next day you feel really anxious. I mean, it's understanding that at this point in time, we're not. This isn't normal. This isn't. This is deeply dysregulated. And so it's allowing yourself to not feel bad or it's not even like. Like, sometimes people are so used to. And because of culture and tradition, it's like, okay, I feel this way. I'm gonna put this in a box and I'll deal with it later. But the reality is, is that we have to feel all the things. So maybe that's like taking a second to just, this is a DBT skill. But it's just saying, like, repeatedly, this is life right now, and just saying it over and over and allowing yourself to feel the weight of that, and it's not trying. So I guess, like, my first step is just allowing yourself to really feel the waves of grief, of anger, of sadness, of isolation, of joy, of hope, of all the things. And not thinking that you have to rush out of it, but allowing yourself to feel it.

Wow. Yeah, that's. I guess that's something. The weight of emotions. And I guess too, for me, as a black man, that's just something like, it comes to emotions. For me, I joked him. Well, you know this. I wrote a book. And so in the book, I joke about how I just took that out on the football field, right? So I just was like, if I felt anger, if I felt sadness, you go to the. Why you just. You hard foul a couple people and just let all your anger out and just hit someone and call it a hard foul or smack one in the mouth and all of that. And when you don't have those spaces. So I guess I think the same thing kind of transitions over into this moment. So what about. So one of the other things, I think I mentioned this on the phone earlier was like, so when I have in our congregation we have a lot of people who are leaders, entrepreneurs. We have more than a year follow through. And so on one side, we have some individuals and we're wrestling with the loss and grief, but also then we have people who are making the decisions on somebody else's loss and grief, unfortunately. Right. So I have to lay you off. I have to let you go. Even I'm in that position. We're not firing anyone at cspc. Don't y' all email me. We're not. But you. And I'm in that position too, where we have leaders who are making those decisions. What would you say in terms of self care for them when they're in the decision or in the space when they're looking at budget line items? Like you said, capitalism. You're in budget line items and as much as you care about them. And we are in this whole movement of adaptive leaders and collaborative leaders. But yet in this moment, the best way our business can collaborate and we didn't get the SBA loan is, I've gotta release you, I gotta let you go. But I know you have three kids. How can we care for ourselves and also care for people that we work with and that work for us when we have to make some really difficult decisions and something we can't figure out?

Yeah. And that's interesting because when you mentioned it to me, I was like, I have to really think about this because. Because there's really no rule book to this. I think just having sat with folks who've had to let people go, and just the pressure of it, but also the fear of it for themselves. I mean, I think the main thing that I would recommend is really examining what is your. To you, what is your role as a leader and what does leadership mean for you? And I know that when we think about being a leader, it's like, yes, I'm gonna lead this team. I'm gonna make these agenda items, I'm gonna make these goals. But there's always a flip side to what it means to be a leader. And it's also understanding that sometimes it's making really hard decisions and it's not easy. And so it's thinking about, like, re examining and sitting with, like, what does it mean for me to be a leader and what does it mean for me to. For me to lead through really difficult times. And, you know, I don't have, like, really the perfect answer for that because it's not easy. I don't think letting someone go that has children or putting someone on furlough is Easy. But I think it's like trying to tap back into yourself of, like. Well, I have the confidence in myself when I got this job and when I did this thing, when I got the promotion to being manager, boss, executive leader, have to also trust in that inner power to, like, withstand the really hard moments of this role of loss. And I think, again, going back to that cycle of loss and of course, talking to a trusted, like, clinician through it, because it's not just going to be as simple as what is a leader to me.

Okay, cool.

But it's like, for, like, a baseline idea. It's like, well, what does it mean for me to lead? And I can lead through, like, hard times. I can lead through times, but I also need to lead through these unprecedented times. And trusting yourself that you have the strength to do it.

Yeah. No, thank you for that. I have two questions. One, two questions off of that. Well, one off of that and then one from before. So I guess when I think about that, there's one of the first things I wanted to respond with is, so then what can we do in general, like, in terms of ABCD, to care for ourselves that are not the $500 manicure. Right. Like, I mentioned in the sermon about how, like, a way that I care for myself is to go to a basketball game. Right. So we go to a women's basketball game. But literally, right now, I mean, like, we can't go the same thing with, like, going for a run. We can't stay at the park. Our Camden would love to go to the park, but he can't touch the jungle gym. Right. And so we, like, literally are, like, skirting by parks and, like, hoping he doesn't see it, you know, because he, you know, and the same thing, like, even, like, hugging other kids. We see kids in the apartment building, but, like, you can't hug them. Right. And so, but that. That's different ways we care for ourselves. So what are some tangible ways that are not the $400 manicure, that are not the basketball game, that we can care for ourselves in this moment to. To be sane with who we are as individuals in this season?

Yeah. So I guess, like, leaning off of that first tip of, like, tapping into your humanity and your humanness, understanding the cycle of grief, and that it's natural and normal to feel happy, excited, sad, joyful, all in one day or all in one week, but it's like, leaning into that. The second tip that I've been telling a lot of clients is get grounded. And I have this, like, in air quotes. Because when I say get ground. So the way that I work as a therapist is through, like, embodiment and so understanding that, like, our bodies are our compasses that are guys through the world around us. And so the first tip is get grounded by activating your senses. And it sounds cliche, but, like, bear with me, it's really kind of liberatory when you think about the joys of, like, being intentional and mindful around cooking and smelling and tasting, maybe repotting some plants or feeling some dough in your hands or like taking a really long bath or just like really indulging your senses. Because in many ways, our bodies keep score. They keep scores. Anxiety, depression, sadness, whatever. But they also help us with feeling, like, a sense of groundedness. So if you can indulge your senses first and foremost through the little things, it doesn't have to be a facial, even though that is a sense, but it can just literally be like putting on lotion in a very mindful way, repeating like, this is life right now. And really just putting on your lotion and saying that out loud. I mean, it could be a lot of things, but my first tip that I've told folks is, like, get grounded and activate your senses.

Thank you. No, that's real. The last question I had for you is something based upon something you said earlier is, so then as a person of faith, as people of faith, because one of the places I think, where mental health gets wonky because we don't talk about it, right, Is in church spaces. And it's how do we talk about the meshing of faith and mental health and self care, right? And so for people in our congregation and even yourself as a person of prayer, as a person of faith, a person who believes in God, how can you balance both of those without it becoming this, like this, like, originally, to tell you the truth, when I first was going to preach this series, the sermon, I was like, oh, I can, like, do it, like in a quote, unquote therapist's office and lay on a couch. And I was like, actually, I've never done that. Right. Personally, I've never. That's not the.

Yeah, right.

So. But that's the image that's painted. So picture of a old guy or old woman staring at you and asking you these really, really deep introspective questions. And then like, you have this big memory of being two years old and had nothing to do with faith. How can we keep living as people of faith and people of faith who are okay to not only pray, but has prayer being a part of self care and care for ourselves, that believing in God does not take away my faith. Right. And how can we as people of faith keep our faith strong and being comfortable with being humble enough to take care of ourselves?

Yeah. So I have one more tip that I'll share in a second. But I guess for me, as I think about that, it is getting really firm about routines. And I think when it comes to anxiety, when it comes to depression, when it comes to really any mood disorder, things like that, a lot of things are based on uncertainty and fear of the unknown. And so, like, I could tell you many thought spirals that folks will go on when it's like, well, I don't know what tomorrow is going to be. And I'm thinking of all the things that could go wrong and that will kind of keep us in our own world. And so I think people of faith have a privilege in a way. As the Bible says, cast all your cares on him. And this idea that like. And I remember you texting me this when I was in college. I don't think you remember, but I remember I was sad about something, probably some boy or. I don't even know what it was. But you, you told me that, you know, God's grace renews each day and that like, his grace is sufficient for us. I don't even, I don't think you remember it, but I remember like walking into a psych class and I had a text from you and I was like, okay, I got it. But it's this idea that, like, God's grace is sufficient for us and even if we can't see and we don't understand because we're human and we won't. And even me being a therapist is hard for me to help people sit in moments where, I mean, because I don't even know, right? Like, I don't know what next month is going to be. But I have the privilege of being able to be in devotion with Christ and be prayerful and hopeful and trusting that, you know, he has the final say. This is not new for him. Right. And so it's. I think we have a true privilege to be Christians in this moment because God is on our side and whatever will happen, we're going to be okay.

Yeah. No, awesome. Thank you for that. Thank you. And that's helpful. I thank you. Is there anything else that you would want to suggest or want to share as we, as we like? We're in this series including about healthy habits and self care. And next month we're going into May as mental health month. Is there anything that you would want to share or ensure that we know as people of faith, as individuals, as black and brown bodies, all this pandemic?

Yeah. So going back over the tips, the first tip was be human, get grounded. The last tip is boundaries, which I think leads all into that. Like, if you're able to understand the fact that you're human and that you're grieving and that you feel hopeful, you feel joy, you feel sadness, and the fact that you're going through these steps of maybe praying out loud to God or you're doing things somatically to kind of regulate your body. The last step is boundaries, which I think I've been talking about this so much lately with my clients and just with friends that, you know, boundaries are like the guideposts. Like, it's kind of like if you see. Like, if you're driving on the street and the sign says, slow down, Road is closing soon, but that road never closes. It's the same thing with, like, when we're like, you know, I'm really stressed out, you know, to your friend, I really don't feel like talking today. But they keep talking, and you just keep allowing it to happen. And it's kind of like, all right, three hours later, I'm still on the phone, and now I'm pissed. And so when we think about boundaries, especially right now, because I think everyone feels so hyper available because we're home, right? We're home, but we're not necessarily available. And so, but I think, like, you know, there's been folks whose parents will call hours at a time, whose friends will call and just be anxious, and that allows you to become dysregulated. So the biggest thing to do is to be firm. And I think it's being selfish. And I don't know if folks of color, we're not really taught to be selfish with our bodies, with our time, with ourselves, especially growing up in a black or brown home. I mean, I think I remember mom always saying this to us. That, like, you know, this bed isn't really ours. This room isn't really ours. You know, like, it's not our stuff. So if she wants to come talk to us, she's gonna come talk to us. Right? But the idea is that being firm, knowing your boundaries is being selfish. And so it's saying to your friend, look, I really love talking with you, but I only have 20 minutes today. Right. Or it's just letting them know, look, I love talking with you. But I'm not really willing to talk about COVID today. I'd love to talk about anything else, but it's trying to understand what that limit is for you. And so I'll send Justin and I'll. And maybe during this, you can kind of put on the screen, but I'll send you kind of some. Some. Some firm tips. But the ways to really be. Have boundaries is to one, be affirming pivot and then also have some hard lines of what you need. So I'll. I'll put that on the screen with examples. But yeah, I mean, that's kind of the main. The main advice I have about that. But that's been coming up a lot for folks, and I see it with myself too. So.

Yeah, no, thank you. That's powerful. I guess the last thing. And. Sorry, this came to my head. So the lesson we have. I have a lesson we created for our children, because one thing we noticed from even our child Cam is his emotions and his feelings are starting to be on his sleeve. And we have a lesson. We're going through the book of genre with our kids, too. All month. What I'm noticing is the. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the suicide rates among teenagers is skyrocketing on a very scary rate to me, and I don't want to get too numb to that. We have a lot of kids and teens in our church. What would you say to them in terms of not just self care, but just the loss of spring break, loss of friends. But then not just that, but just that is the biggest thing right now.

Right.

And so. And knowing that depression, anxiety, and suicide, and we had, I think, a couple at a couple of high schools here this year in Rhode island that committed suicide. And I don't want to ever get numb to that, and I don't want that to get creep into our space. So what can we do? So I know we can do that in terms of professionally, would you apply the same thing to teenagers? And how would that apply differently to teens and little ones who like you? Right. That door better stay open. Right. But how do we. How do they communicate to their parents? Hey, listen, right now, I'm not gonna play video games. I'm not watching pornography. I just. I just need to stare at the wall. I need to listen to Renegade. You know me, I need to do something.

How can we.

To the teenagers.

Yeah. I actually wrote an article about this and the success of Black Parenting magazine, and it was geared towards parents because I think that they play such a crucial Role and in teens and children. Because, I mean, for Camden, like, you're home, and you and Courtney really are his universe, right? Like, you're the ones that's teaching him relationships early. You're teaching him what's normal, what's not. And so I think. I hope parents are also kind of listening and being keyed into this. But for a lot of teens, like, sheltering in place is also sheltering away or living in shelter from their lives. When children leave, like, when Cam leaves and he's at school with the same. I mean, he's someone. I mean, not that he's someone else, but he has his own sense of identity away from, you know, home. And the same thing, especially with teens, that their identity is really not in home anymore. It's with their friends, with their peers. I mean, biologically speaking, that is what's happening. Like, they. It's peer support, peer approval, not really asking your mom for help, asking your friends. And now you're, like, in shelter from all of that. And so I think there are some tips that parents can be on the lookout for if their kids may be exhibiting depression or anxiety. Like, if they feel very keyed up, if they are more isolated than normal. I mean, yes, we're living in isolation, but if they're more isolated, if they aren't very talkative, if they're not sleeping well, if you're seeing sleep dysregulated. But for teens specifically, is trying just to be open. And I know it's hard to say that because parents also have to check themselves of, my child is growing, and they have needs that are above and beyond my understanding. But it's. For teens, it's like, I'm telling you that it's normal to feel really annoyed with your family. It's normal to feel pissed off at your family, to feel mad at the world that you're stuck at home and you want to see your friends, and zoom's never long enough or your partners or whoever it is that you spend time with. But I think the main thing is try and just talk to your parents openly, say, look, Mom, I need some time to myself. I love you. I'm okay. I just want to spend tonight by myself. Or I would like to, you know, create time in my routine to FaceTime my friends. Like, I have to do that every day. It's just really important to me. But my call, as the parents would be, is, listen to your kids and be democratic with your routines. Don't say, you have to do this. You have to do that. But let them kind of create some routines too. But yeah, I think like it's a two way street of parents have to allow children to be free and like have identity and young people have to also like lean into their voice of hey mom, I just really need this from you right now. And it's not, it's not really, maybe it's not eating that dinner right now. I just need to spend time in my room. So.

Wow. Well, thank you for this. This was, this is powerful, enlightening and I pray that every person listening and watching is blessed immensely by this. Let me ask the last thing. How can we get in contact with you and what are you doing and all of that because we've been blessed on both podcast as well as our online service to reach people all the way to New York too, which is really cool. We actually someone who gave their life over to Christ is from New York and joined our online church, which is really cool. So I'm excited about it. And so if someone to get in contact with you even in the midst of this or the future, if they had questions, follow up with you. How can we reach out to you? Where are you all the time, Stephanie?

Yeah, you can reach me at therapy with C. C as in Camille? On like on Instagram, on my website. That's like the best way to contact me. I do have some groups and some like low cost options for folks all virtual. So I'm trying to do my best to plug into the community and the needs. So therapy with C across all platforms. I'm based in Manhattan in Herald Square, but if outside opens back up, yes, that's where I'll be. But if not, I'll be accessible via therapy with C. Awesome.

Camille, thank you so much. Thank you so much for all this. This is awesome. And that information that Camille sends over will be on the email that goes out after worship. Also for those of you watching on the podcast will be in the show notes. You guys will access that and reach out to her with all the information there too. So Camille, thank you. We're going to stop the recording in a second.