Tears and Vulnerability with Reb. Lisa Horst Clark ES059

Support for Every Sing comes from Studio Boss Media, helping you tap into the magic of singing. Studio Boss Media provides resources for singers of all levels. My name is Nancy Bos, and this is the Every Sing podcast. The question is, why don't we sing more? The reasons we should sing are obvious and clear, but if you still are looking for answers to that question of why we should sing, Listen to many of the previous episodes of this podcast, especially the last 8, starting with episode 50. But now, why don't we sing more? Why do we not naturally and effortlessly take advantage of the tremendous benefits of singing like people used to? One of the reasons is vulnerability. The singer gets freaked out as an individual regarding being judged and being vulnerable. I think vulnerability is one of the biggest layers to peel back in this conversation and this exploration. I'll be working on this a lot in the coming weeks and months, and it starts with the conversation today with Lisa Horst-Clark, lead pastor at Bellevue First Congregational Church. Pastor Lisa has a certificate of ministry studies and a master's of divinity, both from the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, California. She has just completed a 10-year journey as a Next Generation Leadership Initiative participant. Her first call in ministry is to assist others who wish to find their place in a spiritual community. She also feels called to discover the intersections between Christianity and other faith traditions, and it is her prayer that God will use her to heal the wounds of those who have been negatively impacted by the misuse of the Bible and the actions of Christian congregations. All of that goes to say Lisa has some excellent insights around vulnerability that I cannot wait for you to hear. Lisa comes to us from her home office in Kirkland, Washington. Let's jump in where the conversation started about tears. All right, so we are here today. I gotta put on my glasses to read my scratches on paper. We are here today because just a few days ago I heard you say in a sermon that from an article you read that Grace, age 9, asked, "Why do tears come out of our eyes when we cry?" And I would imagine most of us that heard you then, and maybe most of us that are hearing you now, are like, "Yeah, why do tears come out of our eyes? What's that about?" And so you reworded it, "Why would it be that when we feel big emotion, we leak water?" We— I love that, "We leak water." So can you share with my audience just a little bit the research that you found as to why we leak water when we're emotional?

That's— I would be happy to. So this was from an article with Nancy— with Grace asking this question, and it is a really good one because I know that when I cry, it is involuntary and it happens, and it's a question of why do these big feelings connects to water. And in the article, so they're answering that some of them are the reasons that our eyes are lubricated in general, so that there are some tears that are just there to kind of wet our eyes and to make sure that they're moist. And there are some tears that are there because something got in your eye, you know, you got dust, you got a something, and that is trying to flush them out. And then the third kind are emotional tears. So if over the course of an average day we make about half a teaspoon of tears, then in a matter of minutes when we're crying, we can make half a cup of tears.

Half a cup?

That's a lot of water coming out of our eyes.

And to that, I'll drink.

And It's a good idea. And what scientists have found is that they're actually chemically different, that there are some parts of the tears that are different, that they have more proteins in them.

That's what I had heard too, is I think I read that a few years ago, the science came out that the proteins are different depending on the cause of the crying. And so That kind of blows my mind because that means that the body is making a choice to change the chemistry of the leaking water based on the cause of the leaking water. Okay, so now I feel like I'm on the precipice. Why, Lisa?

Well, the big answer is that scientists are still not certain. You know that there were a number of theories coming out at first about, you know, what it does to for you as an individual to cry emotionally. But a lot of them haven't come to a consensus. And instead, we're left more with a social answer that just as babies cry in order to have their needs met, that as we grow and don't grow out of this tendency to when we're overwhelmed, when we're beyond ourselves, to cry is that those tears are a visual symbol for those around us that this person's overwhelmed, that they need support and care. And so part of what they're looking at, those chemically different tears, is that they are more viscous so that they're slower to roll down your face and that they're more— that they evaporate more slowly. So it's more likely to be seen by others that you're crying and overwhelmed, which is why I cannot tell you, I cannot have my office as a pastor without a box of tissues, right?

Right.

Because if someone is crying, they're not just going to evaporate, and often it's the only thing you can do is hand them a box of tissues.

You know, that's a really good point. If I'm crying emotionally and I wipe my tears with my hand, my hand's going to be wet for a long time, a lot longer than just water.

If you're, if you're trying to play it really cool and, and have something go down your cheek, eventually you're gonna have to admit that there's something on your face.

Okay, so, so from an anthropological perspective and from an evolutionary perspective, it is perhaps seen as a survival skill to be able to have other people witness your vulnerability.

Yeah, to think about our, um, you know, we think about us as, as humans that we have our bodies, that, you know, what I eat doesn't go into your stomach and things like that, but We also are a community, and our flourishing means that we need to be able to tend to those social connections and social bonds. And there are ways that showing vulnerability and responding to it builds those bonds and builds that, that kind of network of community that means that we're better able to, to flourish as humans.

I totally see that. Like, I can just see it in my own relationship with my husband. He can coast along assuming everything's fine, but if he sees tears on my face, even if I just said, "I'm sad," it wouldn't necessarily register as much as if he sees tears on his face, his heart will melt instantly and he'll be right there. Hopefully that's not uncommon, but I can see that that's I can see that builds the bond.

It builds a bond. It builds, uh, you think about friendships where you're crying together and what that, what that response, um, you know, how close that bond can feel. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And a lot of times, um, I, I hope this isn't too stereotypical, but women can be like cats. We, um, and I came up to I came to this consensus about our emotions with my co-authors on the Singing Through Change book because women in their 40s are often struggling tremendously with perimenopausal changes to their bodies and how it manifests itself in very unpleasant ways. And yet we don't let the world see that. We're like cats, we're fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, you know. And So if, uh, if your cat cries, you know it's, it's a bad day. You know something's going on. So, so that, that makes sense to me. So did you have any other research you wanted to share? Because if not, I want to bend this off just a little bit.

Feel free to bend away. Go ahead.

You're a pastor who gives excellent sermons. You have trained or studied at least to give excellent sermons.

Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a singer who tries to do the same thing, and my goal— I don't want to speak for you, so I want to hear from you— my goal is almost always— okay, sometimes my goal is to make my audience vulnerable, open up to their vulnerability regarding negative emotions or spiritual emotions or joy. Now sometimes when I'm in a musical, it is opening up to laugh, just laugh. Or if I'm, if I'm in, you know, a rock cover band that I was in, it's just to hoop and holler and yell and blow off steam and stress and, and have a good time together in community. But there— because a lot of my singing is in church, I'm usually going for that emotional vulnerability and opening a person up to a message.

And you do, and you do.

Yeah, why, thank you. So, so knowing that my goal is to help other people become vulnerable, I have to be vulnerable myself. And if I see a tear— I've told this to my podcast audience before— if I see— and I've heard other performing artists talk about this— you may have the spotlight on you, you're in a big auditorium, but when you see those white flashes come up to people's face in the audience where they're wiping away a tear, um, then you know you've done your job. And I'm wondering from your perspective as a pastor who gives powerful sermons, are you also working this vulnerability angle sometimes? Could you mind us peeking behind the curtain?

Yeah, well, I would say so. Vulnerability is a powerful thing, right? So it both can, can bond us together, um, and if you're— you have too much, it can feel unsafe. And so, um, and so when I'm thinking for a sermon, right, I mean, and I would probably use more spirit language, but I'm just going to use emotional language here, to say that I want to create a container where people can, can be open to vulnerability. And that container means that they have to trust enough that I'm in charge and that they're safe. So for example, if I got up and just started boo-hooing my way all the way through, then folks would be worried for me. Yes. They would be, they would, they would, they would be, you'd feel shuffling in the seats. You'd feel anxiety.

They'd be coming toward you in a protective way.

And because they'd be towards me because I would be too vulnerable.

Yeah.

And then on the other hand, if I am, you know, stoic and don't have any emotion, if I just stay totally in the head range, and there are folks who, you know, that's their jam, right? Then there isn't that space. So for me, I'm trying to say, how can I model vulnerability in a way that allows folks to open, to participate in some sort of way? And also being aware of when that's too much. Awesome. For pastors, we often talk about preaching from your scars and not your wounds. So that if you're telling a story, even if it's something painful, if it's something that you've passed through and have healed from, then that can be something that someone can resonate with. But if you're still like gushing blood, then that's not— then that's something for you to work with, with your friends and your therapist and for the folks that are dear to you. But maybe isn't ready to be shared with a worshiping community.

I want to say that again, just preaching from your scars, not your wounds.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, so singers, um, I've talked about this in the past, so my audience will be really familiar with this. There's a difference between a person singing and a person performing through song. Um, so just a little bit of background on this. Uh, every single human is a singer. Um, every 2-year-old, 3-year-old on the planet sings, um, with, with very, very rare exception. And, um, and at some point we give up that singing. Many of us do, not all of us, but many of us do. Um, but so often people think of a singer 'Oh, I'm not a singer,' what they mean is, 'Oh, I'm not a performer who sings.' Um, no, it's like, wait, didn't you just sing along with that Annie Lennox song in the car? You know, you are a singer, but you're not a performer. And what we're talking about right now is performers who sing. And so I want just to make sure everybody knows that's what we're talking about, is a performer whose job it is to walk that razor's edge of vulnerability. Oh my gosh, that is one of my biggest challenges actually, is how do you find that fine line where I'm maybe— and this might just say more about me than anything else— where I'm not being too factual. This is the thing with even with the music. Let's see, climb every mountain, Lord every—

You are hitting each note.

Yes, exactly. Accurately, on pitch.

Accurately and on pitch. Yes, yes, exactly.

And so, so I would, I would make choices that I know musically manipulate people's emotions. Like if I— and I've had to train the pianist at the church that I'm going to be doing this, and that is that I'm going to be singing slightly behind the beat. And by slightly, I mean a millisecond, because if I'm singing a millisecond behind what you're playing, then the congregation hears hesitancy. Or if I come in a little before I'm supposed to or a little after, then they get the impression that I'm thinking about the words. And so there are ways to manipulate the timing of language. Yeah, yeah. And to give them an emotional impression.

And you know, it's interesting because when I do a— this has been such a weird time for preaching, right? Because similarly, I live for like the nods that make me know that there's, there's a human there. But, you know, for now, because I've gone through a couple iterations of, of how I hold my words, like, because I used to, when we were all in person, I'd have a sheet of paper because the sheet of paper is never going to have a computer error, right?

Nice. Yeah.

Yeah. And then since we've been, since we've been virtual, I didn't like that it's so hard to look up and down.

Right.

A piece of paper. And so then first I was trying without any notes, which I'm just not that kind of preacher. Um, and now I've got a teleprompter. And the thing is, a teleprompter wants to put every word in the same cadence. Yes. And that's not like—

oh, you want to pause and then come—

you need the moment for a dramatic pause. You need, you need the, uh, ability to, uh, build some momentum with some speed and then, and then stop it. Like, yes, tempo changes, a tempo change. You need a tempo change in the speech that way people don't just fall asleep.

Um, yeah, I hadn't thought about, um, you're so much more vulnerable right now because you can't pivot on the spot if you're seeing a reaction that you don't expect. You're just gonna have to just put it out there. This is I miss people.

Well, and similarly for— gosh, I think about all the choir members right now. Like, you were, you were talking about the difference between being a performer who sings and a singer. And for many folks, what, what gives them the comfort to cross that line is the container of a choir. Yes, the container that, you know, we're in.

I'm one of 60. Yes, exactly.

Yeah. And that, and that we can, um that it doesn't feel as vulnerable because we're in this together, because someone is leading the way and that. And then you've taken all those people and said, now sing in front of a camera.

Yeah, listen to your own voice all alone for a while. Let's see how that goes.

How about you just listen to it just before you upload it, just to see every flaw?

Oh yeah, it is hard on a person. There are lots of layers to this vulnerability. That's what I mean. That's true. We've, we've got vulnerability that we're crying, trying to create in our audience. We've got our own vulnerability that we're dealing with. And, um, wow, okay, I'm gonna have to spend more time on vulnerability.

This is cool. Wow.

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been a great conversation. I will never forget that tears are a sign to other people of our emotional space. And it's, it's almost like I'm just seeing like a door open so that you're actually— those tears are— they're projecting a message. They're sending a light out to the world.

Yeah. As a mode of communication, as a word that is speaking, even if no one is there to see it.

Oh my gosh. I don't know about you, but I'm just—

No, I really— I've been sitting with that this week. Yeah, thank you so much for the opportunity to talk and for all the ways that you encourage the voices of others to lift in song. It is joy.

Awesome. Thank you, Lisa. What an interesting guest. I'm so happy with all of the doors and windows that Lisa just opened for us. If you haven't already, subscribe to this podcast in your podcast player if you want to continue to follow this track of vulnerability with singing. Before I go, I want to thank Pepper Jack and Jill for their podcast music and Ken Faisal for the logo art. Studio Boss, the sponsors of this podcast, helps people tap into the magic of singing. And if you would like to support this podcast, please read and recommend the books available through studioboss.com. The books are Singing 101, The Teen Girl Singing Guide, Singer's Practice Plan Log and Journal, and Singing Through Change. All of them are available in print, Kindle, and audiobook, except the practice planner. That's not in the audiobook. At any rate, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm glad to have you walking this journey with me, and I'd love to have you reach out and connect with me, share what you've gotten from this podcast, or share what you'd like to give. I am into it, whatever knowledge you can give to me regarding vulnerability and singing. Thank you. Down, find some people we don't know in a slow town.

Suits us just fine.

Maybe we'll stop and stay a while.

Oh baby, if you got the time.