Inside the CRO Engine: How to Build Pipeline That Scales

We don't map ICPs, we map humans. As CRO, I'm always balancing 2 things, the engine beneath right now and the one we're building for scale. Treating outbound as a product. What hypothesis are we testing this week? And if something's not working, I would love to know in week 2 and not in Q2.

Today's guest is Anna Goryna, a high-impact revenue and partnership executive with 15 years of experience in SaaS, fintech, and data tech. At Wrike, Anna spearheaded global go-to-market programs, user referral networks and 4 strategic partnerships with Amazon and Google, contributing over $3 million in annual recurring revenue within the first 6 months.

Differentiate what the client asks for and what they actually need.

Like, what levers do you prioritize to accelerate public domain and what is your main metrics of success?

Cross-functional alignment is probably one of the most underrated growth levers in GTM. We looked closer. The real problem was visibility.

Anna, hello. How are you?

I'm doing well. How are you?

I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on today. Really excited to talk with you about all things leadership and GTM and customer-centric. So I'm really excited that you decide to come here today.

Yeah, thank you so much. And thank you for having me today here on your podcast. I'm really happy to be here because I love podcasts, the format. the flow and the way you can go deep without feeling like it's a pitch. So, and at some point I thought, why not to be part of one myself? So today I'm here and super excited. Thank you so much.

That's great. That's great. So for people who like don't know you and don't know anything about you, can you just summarize like a bit about your, like who you are?

Over the past 15 years, I've built my career in partnerships, in business development for leading international technology companies. And My expertise spans actually direct sales, partner sales, distribution engines, customer success, ISV partnerships, and I've excelled in leadership positions over 10 years managing a pretty mature EMEA channel sales and named accounts at Veeam. This is a company with a product in data management, and now it's a unicorn. Multiple times. I don't know if there is a definition of being multiple times unicorn, but it's definitely a case. Also managing global partnership strategy at Wrike, another software company focusing on collaboration and project management tools. And 4 months ago, I joined a payment company, so I switched to fintech, which always has been my area of interest. Now I have this exciting opportunity to lead the team. Actually, I'm Chief Revenue Officer for everything we do for partnerships, sales, customer success, leading the revenue engine for them. Also, I have been mentoring startups in different verticals, focusing on B2B products for, I don't know, maybe 5 years as for now. And this is my big professional pleasure to do so because it provides me an opportunity to work with different industries and to see how my expertise and knowledge which can be applied in a different context.

Tell me a little bit about like leadership, because I feel like— I think we'll start there around your journey when it comes to leading teams. So for some people who are listening, they're ambitious, they're high performing, they're either leading a company and wanting to grow that company, whether they're in the marketing division or CEO division, that's who this is for. So what would you say have been some of like the biggest like mindset shifts that have had the impact, the biggest impact on your ability to lead revenue growth and around team performance? Can you tell us a little bit about that, please?

Yeah, sure. I think it's a great question, and it's a great question to start with. So, when I started my career more than 15 years ago, no one actually talked about career planning the way we do now. And nobody told me that you should treat your career as a project with a strategy, regular reviews, adjustments, and so on. Back then I just had a job and I wanted to earn more, to have fun, and that's it. And so, you know, you know, by the way, they say that a driver with 1 year of experience is actually the most dangerous one. Have you ever heard that?

No, I haven't. A driver, like a car, like someone operating a vehicle?

Yeah, yeah, car driver. Yeah, yeah. With 1 year of experience. And in some countries, insurance companies even charge more than someone in their second day of driving because In that first year, you think you know it all. Confidence feels good, and it's a huge illusion, right? So the majority of accidents happen exactly then. And that's how it was with my career in the beginning. First year or two, I thought, now I understand everything, now I'm ready to move forward. But back then, information wasn't as accessible as today, so no online courses. No easy networking, so I just moved forward intuitively, taking bigger projects, changing the companies. And at one point, I joined a software company working with Central and EMEA partners, so German-speaking countries. That's where I got my first leadership role, a manager for partner sales at Veeam, which, as I mentioned, is now a unicorn. Then I saw it, now I had to be just the most knowledgeable person in the room. My logic was work more, know more, and that's how we will win.

You mean, like, work more on the technical side versus the people side?

Yeah, exactly. So I just need to generate the main ideas, to lead all the meaningful conversations with the key clients, and so on. And in the short run, it worked. Numbers were great, and in sales, that matters. But from a human side, it wasn't my best leadership. And I saw that gap, and I started asking, why is And the next stage was about delegating and growing people through their strengths. It was about not needing to be the smartest in the room, but instead asking the others for their expertise and appreciating it, valuing it. Now, it's more about focus, giving the team a clear frame, resources, inspiration, and vision, and being their resource and being available for support. Who knows what the next evolution will be? I'm pretty sure it will be different again.

Definitely. Definitely. I, I really resonate with, with what you were saying about, uh, you know, talked about sales. Obviously that is the function of sales, right? It's performance metrics.

Yeah.

Revenue. And it's super important. You cannot be overlooked. But it was interesting to see your journey when you said— something stood out for me when you were saying when you're working with people, when you were working in the leadership role, your first leadership role, you wanted to kind of be the best, but then you realize, okay, how do I get the best out of my team? Um, and I remember I did, I went to a course, a very long, probably like, I don't know, 10 years. And it was something that stuck. I heard it once and it stood out for me. It was the smartest people actually ask the smartest questions. And I think this is kind of when it comes to, you're talking about leadership is like, how can I actually give them the framework, ask the right questions to my team to lead from this perspective instead of thinking that you need to know all the technical aspects better because you're only one person can only even Even with AI, you might be able to get, you know, 2x, 3x productivity, whatever, but you will only ever be able to get 2, 3x. But with your team, it'll be 10, 20, 50.

Exactly. It's about synergy, right? So this is what you're— it's exactly the effect. So we're not like 3 people, but we are a team that can generate x10, x30 value in case we collaborate and in case we really play strengths.

What would be something really tactical that you would do with your team to either help them Maybe it's asking the right questions, maybe it's providing the framework of setting targets or goals. Like, what is something really tactical that someone could take away and be like, yes, okay, I understand exactly what I could do in this scenario?

Exactly. So, in general, I would say, so, from my perspective, and also in some management theory, the 2 points are the most challenging for people moving from an individual contributor to a first manager role, and then moving from a manager to a second-line manager, right? So, 2 transitions. And tactically, so, what I I have done, it's supporting transparent communication on different layers, right? So, of course, in sales, people need to understand what do you expect from them in terms of targets, how can they make more money, and this should be super transparent and this should be easy to understand to them, right? Because this is what we want from them. We want them to bring clients, to bring revenue, and also I have to provide them All the support they need, right? So from different aspects. The second one is the communication, right? So communication is king, key, etc. So everyone has heard that, but what does it mean? So people can tell me anything. They can come to our one-on-ones and tell literally anything, any concerns, any questions, any feedback, anything, and we can discuss it openly. Same to me, right? So I can also come with feedback timely and discuss it. As a team, we can also share different cases, not only best practices, but also failures, right? Definitely everyone can fail and everyone in sales has tons of experience, not only on closed won deals, but also on closed lost deals and the ability to reflect on that. And yeah, I would say that that's the most important things I would highlight.

Best sales job I had was, which relates to this, was I was doing new business development. And in that new business development, it was the most clear strategy I've ever had. This was all about like, you've got to hit 3 new businesses a month or a quarter. I think it was smaller businesses, not super high, but it was super clear. And it's like, if you exceed this particular target, you will get your bonus. And I think that's when I thrive the most. Obviously, new business is much easier to measure than sort of like if you're an account executive and then you're trying to grow an existing customer base, it can be more complicated. But I found that for me was like the most clear and obvious. And I think that, as you said, that simplicity makes it, makes it so much easier for someone to understand, okay, I know I need to do this. So how do you— if we're going to switch a little bit into I want to ask some kind of questions about like CRO and like what you think a good CRO should look for. And what are some of those like big ticket things that you're trying to bring to your team in terms of when you're setting strategy? What do you care about on the day-to-day level?

Yeah, great question. So as CRO, I'm always balancing 2 things, the engine beneath right now to achieve and overachieve our targets for the quarter, for the year, and the one we're building for scale. And when it comes to accelerating pipeline, I usually look at a few levers in this order. First, it's focused targeting and real outreach. So we go narrow and relevant. We don't spray and pray, but understanding who the decision makers are, how does the decision-making process look like, what do the customers care about, and speaking in their language. So we don't just map ICPs, we map humans even in B2B, right? So humans work with humans. Second is treating outbound as a product. What hypothesis are we testing this week? This is back to our talk with you. So for example, a recorded podcast versus LinkedIn livestream, right? So 2 hypotheses. We're going to test this and then see what works best. In my case, what's the reply rate, conversion rate? What are the learnings from every touchpoint? And yeah, so for example, we look at cold outreach now like it's a live experiment and we measure the main metrics, we adjust hypotheses, and this leads to the third point, speed to insight. I'm really obsessed with how fast we can get feedback from the field. And if something's not working, I would love to know in week 2 and not in Q2. And I want my team to feel empowered to flag that early. Yeah, I think you also asked something about the metrics, right?

Yeah, I was, I was, you, I think you answered very interesting, actually, like you're, so what you're saying is that you don't just care, obviously you're managing the whole level from top to bottom where someone say different roles would be caring about the now, but you have to care about the now and the future.

Exactly. Exactly. Especially considering the average deal cycle, right? So it can be different from product to product, but one of the main differences between B2C and B2B is exactly the longer deal cycle because more people are involved in the decision-making process and so on. For my company, as for now, we have a deal cycle of 3 to 6 months, which means that if I'd like to achieve and overachieve in Q1, now is the right time to build a foundation, to build pipeline so that we can move forward. And same relevant to Q2, Q3, etc. So, you have always this gap of your deal lifecycle.

I think when it comes to like, you also talked about scaling outreach, which I thought was really interesting because you said that was the other part that you said was today. And then this is the most scalable version of that outreach. So how do you like, what levers do you prioritize to accelerate pipeline and what is your main metrics of success?

So in pipeline, so in pipeline, I think it's pretty easy as to metrics. It's revenue, of course, right? So what's the expected revenue? It's some reply rates, quantity of conversations per week, time from cold to qualified, time to closed won, win rates by segment, and conversion point across the funnel. And so talking about metrics, I think it's a pretty common metrics for revenue engine.

Right. Brilliant. And you talked about translating client language insights into high-impact messaging and outreach sequences. How do you do that? If you're thinking about taking your existing ICP or your demographic, you talked about Which I like, talk about it being not about just the ICP, but about the human, about the person that you're actually conversing with or having a conversation with. How are you translating those insights into messages? What are some things that you're doing, or at least that you're thinking about when you're doing it more as like a framework?

Yeah, sure. So it's also a great question to think about it, but only as a part of GTM, right? But I think it's an important one because everyone's in details. So for me, being customer-centric, it's It's not just about having the right ICP on paper because now I think everyone does it, right? So it's not so complicated. It's about speaking clients' language, as I said, so that they actually feel, okay, she gets us. And of course it starts with defining ICP and mapping the key contacts who are in. Okay, let's say we have our ICP, we understand the audience, and then we go and create a contact map. Key contacts within ICP. This is specifically relevant for B2B because if you're working with B2C, usually you know your end users. There is not as complicated decision-making process in business. So in B2B, who is in the buying committee, who influences the decision, and who signs the deal? It's important to understand. And then comes my favorite part, listening to how they talk, the exact words and verbs They use when they describe their challenges and goals. And this is different from vertical to vertical because if they don't say go, but say run, then I run with them. I can give you a couple of examples. In travel and hospitality, for example, one of the key verticals for us now, you rarely hear increase revenue in their marketing. You're going to hear something like boost occupancy, fill more rooms, extend stays, drive bookings, something like that. So if I come in saying increase customer lifetime value, my language, I'll translate it into get your guests to stay longer and come back next season. Same meaning, but now it feels more native to them. In creative industries, agencies, design studios, media companies, they don't talk about sales enablement or process automation. They say free up brain space, streamline workflows, bring ideas to life faster, and so on. And I wouldn't pitch CRM. Efficiency, for example, but I would pitch more time for work you love, something like that. Even in payments, my current world, I adjust the lens depending on the vertical. A gaming company might care about instant payments and player loyalty. A travel platform cares more about frictionless bookings and global acceptance. And underlying capability is the same. The way I talk about it is not.

I think this is such an important point. Like it can seem obvious, like when you say it out loud, but then when you start to actually break it down, uh, I think it provides such a unique insight to how B2B companies should be thinking about not just their messages, their sequences, but their— it ties back into their whole marketing campaign, like everything. What are the core benefits and key drivers that are going to actually get either a response rate or, or even your content marketing or any kind of communication you have when you get on a sales call? Like it goes all the the way through, right? It's something that you need to be constantly communicating when you're—

Yeah. Yeah.

When you're talking. And I think it's such a probably overlooked part of your marketing campaigns. Obviously when you're talking about big companies, big budgets, but for smaller guys, B2B companies, maybe doing a couple, couple mil, it's still something that they can get a lot of value out of just changing that message or just changing that structure. And the testing, I think going back to your point, like you can have that hypothesis or that thesis and then say, well, this is what I'm gonna try, but then It falls flat, right?

Exactly, exactly. So, you know, as I said, it's an important detail and I would pay attention. At the same time, of course, it's not the replacement for some basics like really defining your ICP, thinking of stakeholders, thinking of this process. So it's, you know, it's something we can fine-tune definitely and bring it to the next level, but it's It's not the first one, so you need to do some prep.

Yeah, for sure. If you're selling to the wrong person, then it doesn't matter what language you speak.

What you say.

Yeah. Yeah. They're not going to be interested, right? Tell me a little bit about that. It's an interesting point, actually. Tell me about like, how do you start to look at, you talk about when you're targeting, obviously, probably your larger clients or depending, again, it does very much depending on how big the sale would be, how much time and effort reward. Like for example, when I was working for Coca-Cola, back in, like, we would have all the decision makers would know all their buyer types. We would know, uh, what they like, what they don't like, personal level. Like, we'd have custom, like, folders of, like, really custom, like, literally old folders, not computer, not on computers, uh, even though it was around the computer age, but folders of stuff that would be just related to that client, how they should be pitched. Should there be like one page, two pages? If you're pitching to a different client, maybe they're more finance-driven, but I don't want to kind of take away from— I'm curious, like, how do you guys do some of that stuff? Is that still important today when you're looking about decision makers and many different people in the buying process after obviously you've gotten to them? Is that something that you're thinking about?

Yeah, I got the question and it's a great one. So I love the scale when it comes to enterprise sales and the way of creativity here. So at Wrike, we worked of course, with large logos like Apple, EY, WPP, etc., and when you'd like to onboard them and also not only win, but also when you think about retention, because, right, so the first sale, it's the only beginning of the whole story.

Yeah.

Then you are more about retention and being considered as a strategic partner to them, not just another tool, because As for now, we have ecosystems, even ecosystems, right? So one tool or one product doesn't resolve all the challenges and issues a modern business has. And it also relates to the collaboration between sales and marketing, you're right. And here it's more account-based marketing. So what you describe, this is exactly it. When we are trying to get better understanding of the personality within our buying process, within our contact map, when we are trying to get better understanding not only of their business priorities, but also about some hobbies and personal preferences so that we can use it in our communication and tailor the way we communicate, the activities we do for and with them exactly to the team we work with. But it's super expensive, you know, just for our audience to explain, it's super expensive. It's not something you can do for your portfolio in general, and it's worth it only, I would say, for some multiple million contracts and so on. And of course, you're going to invest. Otherwise, it's more industry-targeted messaging, what we actually discussed earlier, right? So when I provided a couple of examples, overall for industries, it's going to work. Of course, it's not as much tailored to your decision maker as in account-based marketing approach. But anyway, good salespeople, they always check the key decision makers within their account. So they know their portfolio. And even if it's not company-wide account-based marketing, then it's a personal discovery. Same to me. When I have a conversation with someone, of course, I'm going to check what kind of person am I talking to, what kind of background experience, what else, so that I have more context, so that we have more I wouldn't say personal, more warm conversation, right?

I think it just respects their time as well when you've taken the effort, right, to at least know something about them, their experience, what they've done, where they've been. I think in a busy, busy, busy world, whether you're selling or whether you're just trying to build a connection with them, it shows it's appreciated, right? It's appreciated that you actually, you care and you give it, you give a shit.

It makes a huge difference.

Yeah. I want to ask you about like cross-functional alignment. I think we touched on it a little bit actually already, I think with the account-based marketing.

Yeah.

Can you share a little bit, if we can maybe open that up a little bit more, can you share like how you are orchestrating like sales teams, marketing teams, and product teams into this GTM engine? Because I think this is probably the, I'm gonna assume maybe one of the probably biggest challenges that you may face within your role when you're trying to connect all these different departments together. Maybe not, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm curious if you can kind of open that up a little bit.

Yeah, great topic because it sounds much more simple than it is. I mean, the cross-functional alignment in theory is pretty simple. You have shared goals and then you go. But actually, cross-functional alignment is probably one of the most underrated growth levers in GTM. Because let's be honest, sales, marketing, and products often speak different dialects. And one of the most important parts of my job is to make sure that We not only talk, but actually hear each other. And I think here are 3 things important to understand. So, sales brings the field intelligence, real-time client feedback, and friction points. Marketing turns that into a message that scales. And products brings the why and the how it can actually work. So, there is no conflict. There is a nature of collaboration within. To keep the engine running smoothly, I focus on following. So shared rituals. We have, of course, regular syncs where team not just reports, but they listen and they have space to collaborate. More about how the meeting is structured, right? So if we have this, if we push people, literally push people to collaborate, to discuss, and to provide their input. It works much better. And shared outcomes, of course, not just sales hits quota, but shared metrics by segment, by campaign, by GTM motion, where we really assess sales outcomes, marketing effort, and how do the product metrics look like. Here, by the way, one of my favorite lessons came from a product colleague who said, differentiate what the client asks for and what they actually need. I don't

know,

have you ever faced that? Yeah, I actually

I, I can't remember where I heard it, but that lines in my head is like, it was more about sales. It was like, sell— you must sell the client what they, what they, what they want, but when you deliver, you must deliver what they need because that won't give them the outcome. So it's like the sexy message might be get more leads, but the thing might be consistent outbound, or the thing that no one wants to do but it's not sexy, so it doesn't fit in a marketing message, but it delivers what they need. Is that kind Just, is that kind of what we're— is that how you relate it back as well?

Yeah. And I can give you also another example. So at Wrike, in a project management context, a client kept asking for more custom fields so that they can create custom flows within the product and a flexible task view so that they can configure it. At first glance, it sounded like just another user experience and user interface tweak. But then we looked closer together with product team across support tickets, sales calls, feedback, and we realized that the real problem was visibility. They were juggling multiple teams and priorities in one workspace and couldn't get a clear snapshot. It's too much. So instead of giving them 5 more settings or custom fields, we introduced a new team-level planning view. And you can say it was not exactly what they asked for, but it solves the real problem. And it boosted product adoption across departments.

This is about that full feedback loop, right? At every stage of the cycle, which you can then bring back into sales or bring back into your messaging, bring back into your marketing. Yeah, all of these adoption rates, it works all the way through. I think it's a perfect example, actually. So if someone's listening to this and they're like, okay, well, that works great in a SaaS-based product team. What about B2B? What about if you're you know, service-based, high-ticket potentially based, you know, selling something, but, and there's a smaller team because obviously they might not have the resources. And obviously you've consulted and you've, you've coached and you've worked in that space. What would be some strategies or some ways that, that can adapt to that particular market?

Yeah, I think it's, it's all about curiosity. And you probably have heard about a pretty simple but powerful exercise of 5 why. When your client is asking you for something, you keep asking why. Why do you need this? Why do you need this now? So why, why, why? And then you can actually get better understanding of what actually they need, right? Because in my example, it's the same. So they come and ask you for some fields, and if you don't ask anything further, then you just submit a product feedback and request for 5 more fields, which is gonna product structure more complicated. It's gonna create more work for your product team. Let's say they accept the request and they start executing immediately. And later, most likely, the client gonna come, I need more, 5 more custom fields or something. But when you ask why, why, why, then you get better understanding. We are just too many people in one space. We don't understand what's going on. We need to build a transparent flow to see who's responsible, what's this project status, and so on. And then you're okay. Then I have at least something I can discuss internally to see what's the best solution we can scale for other clients? Because you're not— most likely, if it's not a custom product and now the companies are not focusing on something they're gonna customize for every single company, again, if it's not Apple or some other super high amounts, but in general for the market, you'd like to deliver something a lot of clients or maximum of clients can use. So then you also try to understand if you can scale the solution and if this is exactly the answer to multiple requests.

I love that. 5 Whys is just going deeper, right? Understanding what is everyone— what is their real app— excuse me, what is their real outcome here? What are they actually trying to achieve versus— I mean, we've all used products and SaaS products and things, and you're like, well, I wish this could do this. But it may— is it a nice to have? Is it something that actually is going to move the dial? Is this something that actually will change the way they use the product? And will other people like— will this be a better change? Because often you design a product with fixing kind of one potential need, or maybe multiple problems, but the use case for that particular client is very, very different. I want to ask you about AI. Actually, we didn't have it on our agenda, but I feel like it's a natural conversation. Before I ask you about AI, I just want to add one thing to, to the previous topic, which is about how to kind of utilize, get these GTM strategies. Something that I've been doing, and I think this is quite common, it does relate to AI actually as well, but I think sales calls, or you talked about sales calls, or I think the way you put it was like observe— observing what's happening in real-time feedback, which sales calls is one of them, all those friction points. I think in those friction points, it's something that I do regularly as I record all my calls, every single call I have. I tell my clients to do the same and I analyze them, just the, just the data. Like, what are the friction points? What is— what are they saying? What words are they using? Like, it's such a simple thing. Obviously harder to do, like, if you're doing tens of thousands of sales calls a month, you've got a huge team, there's just all this data clogged up. But on like, for small scale, you know, high-ticket B2B guys who want to leverage some of their data. And I'm not sure what legalities now— I think Europe is bringing out a whole bunch of stuff. That's a whole— let's not just pretend that doesn't exist for a minute. But when I, when I talk about this, like sales calls, you— all your data is in those sales calls. All those friction points, all those objections, the successful ones, the failed one, or the not closed yet, all of them can be used to then rewrite content, to rewrite, to do a to do some marketing message around that, to come back to them and go, well, listen, I've solved this problem. I think that's such an important thing that maybe something so simple now you can do super easily, whereas before you might need to like take the notes and remember, but you don't get the actual language, the words that they say that's actually coming out of their mouth. I think that's such a powerful little hack, which I just wanted to add.

Yeah, you're right. And it's super important to me to have the insights. Then it comes a question. You're talking about your personal example and you're doing it excellent job in recording and then keeping your key insights. What if you have team of 10, of 20, of 30 salespeople? You do not have any capacity to even to listen to one call from everyone. And back to AI topic, the great thing about this, that it's your copilot that can help you to see so many insights, summaries, and so on. So you don't really waste time on that and you can focus more on execution strategy and so on. And actually yesterday I had a call with a friend of mine who has an AI-based product for salespeople. What they do, they analyze the recordings with AI and based on the desired sales call structure, they're going to provide you insights on the salesperson performance in particular categories. And his key insights, first one is that the majority of companies, after they start analyzing their existing sales call structure, they change it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if they thought that it was pretty logical, great fit for their verticals, for their clients, and we have been doing this for many years and so on, having the particular insights with quotes, with everything from the real calls, usually it leads to some changes and some adjustments in call structure. I'm not saying scripts because I don't really believe in scripts and I'm not a big fan of scripts. But providing a structure, what kind of information should be collected during the discovery phase, what should be a value proposition, what should be a next step part, right? So it makes sense to provide some guidelines to a sales team because the seniority level can be also different. And for some people, it's not obvious or they can forget sometimes. So as to AI, as for now, I see a huge progress. developing tools in that area, and I'm also in progress of implementing this to my team because definitely I believe this is going to make things so much more efficient, so much more transparent. So it's worth it. It's worth it to try. I don't remember the names of the tools now because so many of them. But we can leave some links after we finish for our audience if they're going to be interested to try it.

I'm sure they will. Cool. I'm sure we can leave those notes. One final question. What is there another area that you think that AI is going to either replace, change? I mean, I'm sure there's many, but for you, like what you're doing in the day-to-day, is there something that you, is it kind of obvious for you that is changing already or has changed already with the way you operate with AI?

I think for me, it's 100% personal productivity because I use AI a lot. I use it every day for my routine and so on. And it's hard to imagine how I did this a couple of years ago. How did I survive, right? But now I see this as a huge opportunity, at the same time a big challenge for critical thinking. I have discussed this with some AI experts, so people who deep dive into AI part, and this is exactly a big challenge. So if you rely on AI too much and if you do not challenge it for proof of information and so on, of course you're gonna get so many mistakes, so many irrelevant information. Because, for example, ChatGPT provided me several times with, let's say, McKinsey reports that has never existed. Never. So you're trying to follow the link, nothing. And you're just trying to search by name. It just doesn't exist because ChatGPT created it especially for you to confirm your hypothesis or something. Or your presentation. Exactly, exactly. Or your presentation. Yeah, exactly that kind of research exists especially for you. Wow. How can it It might be possible, but then you just realize that it's not true. I mean, copiloting 100%, but the critical thinking is still something what's on us.

Thank you so much for coming here. And I really, really enjoyed that. It was amazing. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and all the examples and just the diligence you brought to it today. So thank you for that. I'm sure people are going to really get a lot from it.

Thank you so much, Nas. I have the feeling that we could talk many hours more and thank you for this super safe environment. And for, for this really interesting discussion, questions, I appreciate this. Thank you so much.

My pleasure.