437: Lifting the Lid on Upper Blepharoplasty, Judgment, and Aging Beautifully with Karen Karlsen

I think there's more to natural beauty than just the exterior. I think your beauty still we got to remind people, you could get all the surgery you want, you could get all the fillers, whatever you want. But what makes you animated? Something has to animate you and that's. That can only be you. That's your own unique beauty from the absolutely from the inside.

Welcome to Midlife Conversations. I'm your host, Natalie Gill and I'm passionate about having amazing conversations that match matter to us midlife women. On this podcast, I do what I do best. Taking complicated health topics and breaking them down simply so that we can optimize aging together. I share actionable steps to help you thrive in what I believe are our best years to come. Join me as I interview the most inspiring people living their best midlife years and dive into essential topics like hormone changes, health optimization, weight management, blood sugar, emotional well being, relationships, beauty and so much more. Plastic surgery, most importantly on our face and eye surgery, upper eye BL, lower BL, fat transfer, CO2 laser, all the things, even face lifts, brow lifts, all the conversations. Coming up with a lot of midlife women that want to look and feel younger. Today. I asked my friend Karen Carlson to be here to have a discussion, have an open discussion about this as I'm 53 and she's 60, she's in her 60s and she is a well known influencer online. She's got a fabulous Instagram page. We actually connected at a conference a while back. I was speaking at it. That's when I first met her and we started following each other on Instagram and I just loved her messaging how she's talking to women our age, especially about pro aging, which I love. Not age reversal, but pro aging. She looks amazing, she feels amazing. And we became good friends on Instagram or when I started sharing publicly about my upper eye and lower eye bleph, which is when they remove and change a little bit about the skin that starts to fall as we age. And yes, it does start to fall as we age and there's no amount of gua sha or face massage or topicals or potions or lotions that are gonna fix that. It does start to happen. I started sharing it publicly. She got super curious and she ended up as well doing a procedure about that. So that's what we're talking about today. We're gonna be answering questions, we're gonna our journeys. Thanks for joining us. Thank you Karen for being here with me and having this conversation.

I am so excited to talk about this, Natalie, because I think we get to a certain age and stage where we realize that for certain things that are happening to us, there is a limit to what? Needles, potions, massage, electrocurrent.

Yeah.

Red light mask. There's a limit to what that stuff can do. Those are all fantastic tools. And you're still really young. Like, I think of 53 as really young. I felt absolutely in my prime of my beauty at that age. But things happen, right? And then you hit. You hit 60, and it is real. So every woman may kind of sort of hit the wall and at a different age or stage because of things like genetics or how you've treated yourself all the way up till that point. So. So you're going. You went through what we just did at 53, and I could extend it to 60. Yeah.

And I love that. And I know when I first shared, Karen reacted with, gosh, you're so brave to share. I don't know that I want to open it up. You said, I don't know if I want to open it up to followers or my audience. And the reason you didn't want to open it up to them was. Was because of judgment or what was the. What was the reasoning behind that?

I feel like I'm so public online, like, as you are as. As well, you. You are a presence. People know who you are. And I think that some things I just wanted to reserve.

Yeah.

For myself. I wanted to reserve going through this for myself. And.

I thought, okay, if I reserve it now, then when I'm ready, I can talk about that and share if I feel like it. Because I also feel like I don't owe anybody an explanation at this age or stage for whatever intervention I choose to do to make myself feel better about this whole process. So. And I know that women can be so judgmental. I mean, I. I've taken so much, you know, negative things along with the positive.

Right.

There's a lot of people I inspire and help. But, you know, when you choose to do surgery, it is very personal. There are a lot of considerations. And will would I tell my best friends and things like that. Yes, I'll tell them what I'm going through or what I'm having done. But just for the wider audience out there, I just wanted to reserve that for the moment when I felt like I feel okay about this and maybe somebody can learn something from us sharing our story. So when you asked and you said, will you talk about it? I was like, yes, because you were so inspiring. You. You showed every lick of what was going on. You did what I couldn't do until now when I'm showing up.

So, you know, for those of you listening, I don't think there's a right or wrong and a choice to share. I think it's a personal decision. And I, and I do agree with you. We don't have to share everything, and I certainly don't share everything. But the reason I chose to share is I do talk about a lot of things I'm doing to optimize aging, health wise, but also physical wise, and just the way that it looks aesthetic wise. And what I didn't want to do is not for me. I didn't want to not be completely authentic and transparent there because.

It'S a real thing. And I didn't want to just come back and it's like, oh, it must be the eye cream I'm using or the lotion. So I decided to tell. To tell the truth and share the whole journey. And by the way, for people that don't share, it's not that they're not telling the truth. I think it's really just what you said. It's some of the things you want to keep private because of the judgment. I also want to share. I did get a lot of judgment. I had a lot of women that said, this is amazing. Thank you for sharing. I've been considering it, but I also had a lot of really judgy, mean comments. People disappointed that I was doing it. And it didn't bother me because it's my truth that I wanted to do it. And I think whatever our truth is, whatever we decide, we're less bothered when it's our actual truth. That's. That's how I feel about it. And those comments didn't bother me because I knew who I was sharing for and why.

Yeah, and you'd also, you know, just shared your explant journey as well. And so I watched that whole thing and.

You know, it was just. It's. It's helpful to hear women talking about these things, I think, because we are getting a lot of content now. I'm. I started getting facelift content on TikTok, and the algorithms were just feeding me one thing after the other and after the other. And I started thinking, like, wait, am I expected to do this? How far would I go with this? Would I talk about just. It gets you thinking.

Yeah, well, the first thing I wanted to share, and I think you and I are pretty much on the same page with this, is I don't believe there's any one right way to age. I think it's a choice how we choose to embrace aging no matter what that is. I have a lot of respect for women that say, I'm just gonna let it all be natural. I'm not gonna do any tweaks. I'm not gonna do anything. But I also have a lot of understanding and respect for women that want to fix all of it and want to maintain and change. And I don't believe there's any right or wrong way. What are your thoughts around that?

I don't either. And that's why I don't like the judgment, because the judgment can go either way. You. You could look at a woman and say, why would you let yourself go in 2025 when we have so many small little options that would. That might make you feel better about this whole thing. So the judgment can go both ways. Or, you know.

She. She's doing all this intervention. She's cheating. She's. She's cheating. She's got hacks. She, you know, it. I just think it kind of sort of unkeals totally women to see these different things. But I really want my focus on my whole Instagram TikTok platform. Social media is talking about different things about aging besides aesthetics, because no amount of surgery, no amount of botox filler beauty is going to slow down your aging. The things that truly slow down aging are in your lifestyle, in how disciplined you are around sleep and alcohol, nutrition and fitness. But this esthetic piece really can't be ignored, because for the women who are taking care of themselves in their 40s and 50s and really thinking ahead 20 years.

They, you know, it's just. It could be a little bit of a slippery slope. But we, But I always want women to start with the inside first and then go ahead and address what you want to address. Color your hair. If you want to keep coloring it, let it go gray. If you love it and you think you look great that way.

Get. Get a facelift if you feel comfortable with that. A lot of it has to do with what did your mother do? And things like that. What are the people around you doing? So I just want every woman by the age of 50 or 60, you should be so solid and be able to make your own decisions like a big girl and not look around for approval for confirmation about what you're doing. You should be solid enough.

Yes, I agree with that. And I think people are going to judge no matter what. So whether you choose to go all natural and not tweak and you're embracing it, or you want to do some interventions or you want to intervene on it all, you're going to have judgment no matter what. So it's about doing you. Now, you did say something a minute ago. You said, the most important part is how we take care of the inside and how we are healthy there. I will say, though, when appearance matches how you feel, you are more likely to keep up the stuff that makes you feel good. What do I mean by that? Well, if you are wanting to take care of yourself and you're wanting to be social and go out and work out and do all these things, when it's bothering you, when you feel like your age does not look how you feel, it will start to get into your subconscious, it'll start to get into your confidence. I think it does start to affect it.

Yep. And that's what happened with my eyes. So I had had filler put in some years ago, like five years ago, and it was great. At that age and stage, I probably was, you know, about a little older than you are right now, and it filled the gap. It put a band aid on my issue for five years. But then filler started becoming unpopular around the eyes, and I started noticing discoloration from the product being in there. And as the skin thins as you age, you do see more blue and stuff. It's coming through. And so I decided I'm going to have all this taken out and meticulously painstakingly removed via ultrasound. But what was left, Natalie, was me looking at myself thinking, I'm not freaking tired, but I look like I haven't slept in days. So then I started feeling insecure and a little depressed because I was. The way I looked to myself wasn't how I feel inside. For all this work I do to take care of myself, all the minor little biohacks and the, you know, like, all the things I do. Yeah, it just. It's like a mismatch. And I remember my own mom talking about that, saying that she would pass a mirror and go. Because she didn't feel that that reflection was what she was feeling from the inside out.

Yes, that's exactly what I can say about myself. And, you know, I know a lot of people. It's very popular to do toxins and fillers. And again, no, not against any of it. However, what I want people to realize is when you do all of that, you. It's not permanent and it's a constant needing to do more of it. So, like, if you do Botox, for example, that might help temporarily for a few months, but you got to keep doing it, right?

Yes.

So when you do an actual surgical procedure, it's permanent. Now, that doesn't mean you don't need to do it or revisit 10 years, 15 years later, because we still keep aging. But to me personally, I would personally rather the surgical intervention for the change than the injections, if that makes sense. Because I. To me, it actually looks a little bit, when it's done properly, looks more natural, it's more permanent, and it ends up being less expensive. That's what people don't realize. Like, it actually is less expensive sometimes. And I'll. And I'll give an example in a minute with the eye. If you do the surgical versus the constant injections, what are your thoughts around that?

I think for me, I might be a little bit more of the opposite, because I really felt like through my 40s and 50s, the Botox and a little bit of discreet filler and things sort of just carried me along the current when I felt like I just want to look natural. Right. Because I have a natural personality. So.

Yeah.

I don't wear dramatic makeup most of the time or anything. I just like, minimal, low key. Low key. And so those tools were a great way for me to age for 20 years. Yeah. Without even thinking about, I would need surgery. I would surgery.

Yeah.

But the older I get, the part of you, you know, by 60 is saying, like, how long can I play that game? And would I need something more and more permanent? But for me, the permanent thing is like, the scariest part because there's always the what ifs, and you gotta be. You gotta be a big girl and face all the what ifs.

Yeah.

So, you know, there are. There are implications that you totally. That you need to think about as far as permanence.

Yeah. And I think that comes down to doctor, too. Right. Like, it comes down to how do you choose the right doctor? How do you. How do you. Do you have. Do you know people that have gone to them? I think there's definitely a difference there. Like, I know with the surgeon I chose, I looked at so many before and afters. I talked to people. Like, I was very clear on the work I was signing up for versus, like, just I went on a. A budget search and picked somebody.

Yeah. And you were much more thorough than I am because to me, just a personal recommendation is the most important thing. Like, I could look at befores and afters till I'm blue in the face, but if I hadn't Known somebody who said he does great eyes. Yeah. Or he did my facelift and three other friends. Like, then that means so much more to me that it carries much more weight. So I didn't really have to do a ton of research or interview a ton of. A ton of doctors.

My advice to anyone listening, though, is to do some. Whether you're asking friend, you're looking for friends, but do some, do the research, make sure that that's their specialty.

I'll know.

I'll tell you for mine. I chose a doctor that's facial plastic surgery for my recommendation to people. If you're touching your face, you want someone that specializes in face. And another level, if you're doing eyes, you can go to an ocular plastic surgeon or. But it's somebody that does them all day long. I know, I'll tell you my, my friend who did my explant, he's amazing and he does eyes too.

But I.

And I'm sure he does an amazing job. But I said. And he said I could do them. And I was like, well, I want somebody who does eyes all day long. Like, I want somebody who. That's their whole focus. So that's how I just. Like when I went to him for explant, I wanted somebody that. That's what they do. Like they have done breast over and over and over again. That was my preference on choosing.

Yeah, that's smart. And that's a smart way to go about it. And maybe I could have been a little more thorough, but I also was getting to that tipping point where I felt like it's now or never.

Yeah.

Like I can't dick around with. Sorry.

Looking like I'm this tired when I'm not.

Yeah.

So that's why when you went through your journey, I thought, okay, I forgot there's a surgical solution for this one.

Totally.

And so let's.

I want to talk about the actual eye situation because. And I'm going to show my. I'm going to have my pictures in here if you're watching this on YouTube, because I want you to see what this was. Now a little background on my eyes personally, and then I'm going to get yours kind of. Karen.

So my.

About 15 years ago. 15 years ago.

So I was.

So I'm. Let's see, I'm 53 now, so I was. Maybe it was less than. I was approaching 40 at the time. I did under my eyes instead of filler. I did a little bit of fat transfer years ago and I loved it. Now when he first did that. I thought he overfilled it a little bit. And this was before I was like a lot on social media. And I just remember feeling, like, really swollen there. And that was my only experience with touching anything around my eyes. And then over the years, that kind of settled down. And then at about 10 years, that pretty much goes away. Like, fat transfers are not permanent. They're not permanent. We still keep aging. So that over time went away. And I started seeing dark circle on under one of my eyes. It was like a bag in a dark circle. And I was constantly using caffeinated cream to try to help that I look tired. But more importantly, what was really bothering me was eyelids. And if you guys have scrolled TikTok or Instagram at all, especially for the over 50 crowd, you'll see people making comparisons to eyelids being like ball skin. I didn't say that. But they'll say, like putting. Trying to put eyeliner on or trying to put eyeshadow on. It's like, it's that.

It's.

It's like a joke. Like, they feel like, where did this become like that? And it gets this creepy. The back of your elbow skin, we can say even it's just this. Different types of skin. And for me, it was a gravity thing. It started sinking down. So even though I could hide it a lot with makeup or try, it was one of those constant things where I would look in the mirror and like, lift up my brow or try to lift up my eyelid to make it look like there was an eyelid there.

Yeah. Once you start pulling at things, you know that, you know, you might be getting close.

Yeah. And so. And then what I also noticed is if I would wear lashes, which I loved wearing lashes, it stopped making my eye look bigger. Instead, you'd have this creeping down skin and like, lashes pointing out. So it just didn't. It just looked like all of a sudden that was really aging me was my eyes. That's how I felt about my eyes.

You know, I. I feel like my eyes. I've always been told, like, that's your. My best feature. I'm. I'm so expressive. And you know, they say the eyes are the window to the soul. And so say I did nothing else from here forward. I would be really satisfied if that my eyes are expressive, lit up, alive and engaging still, like, engaging looking like I am still here. I am still here because this is how you hear what I'm saying through my mouth. But I'm communicating with my eyes.

Yeah, right. And I noticed when I tried things like Botox, which I had tried to like, kind of lift my brow or whatever. What would happen is it would collapse my brows even more, at least for me, and it would make it like my eyes really puffy looking right there. So that was the thing that was bothering me. And I know some of you listening are like, well, this sounds ridiculous and shallow, then this is not the episode for you. But for those of you going, yes, I miss wearing eyeliner, or it's been bothering me, or it's. It's been a thing, I want you all to know that the eyelid portion of the surgery we're talking about was the easiest part.

Yeah, let's tell them. Let's tell them.

Yeah, go ahead.

There's, you know, I knew where the incisions were going to be, and I knew you had had a scarless lower left. I had. Had. Not the scarless kind, because I was not a candidate. So the surgeons I interviewed said, no, you're not a candidate for the scarless. But after looking at some pictures of what that scar ends up looking like, it's like a nothing burger. It's, it's. I mean, right now I'm about two months out and I have no scars or marks or any.

Me either.

Any evidence that anything ever happened on my upper lids. My under eye incision is, Is healing great. No one knows what I've had done, but if I use a 30 times mirror, I can definitely see. You know, it's. It's just a slight little discoloration and maybe like a ridge. Like a little, A little ridge. But it's right where your eyeliner would go. Yeah.

And so your lash line, it's on your lash line.

It's. It's a little lower than the lash line. Like, but your, your lashes themselves with, with mascara or if you have dark lashes, it just covers that completely.

Yeah.

And so I don't feel like I have to hide it. Cover it. Today I have eyeliner on for the sake of being visual and being on video. But most days right now, I'm going around with nothing under my eyes. I'm healing it with just a little bit of scar cream under there. I wasn't directed to do that. That's my own kind of like, I'm gonna help this along and it's no big deal. I mean, and on my lowers, which you didn't have to go through, I had, you know, there's like a tie off in each corner, and for a while there was like a hard little pimply looking thing. And it was visible. But my doctor just instructed me just keep pushing that and massaging it against the orbital bone. And sure enough, they're gone. They're completely hidden in the crease over here. So I'm going to talk about for.

What exactly what I did. And then Karen's going to share exactly what she did and why we chose the different paths. But the. The one thing we both did in common is we both did upper. It's called an upper eye bluff. And what they do is they will do a little cut in the crease of your eyelid, which both of us. There's no scar now like that healed super quick. A little crease. They pinch the skin. You're. You're asleep, you're not feeling anything. And that's it. It's. They can do it. You don't even have to be completely put out. You don't. If you're just doing upper eye bluff and many times insurance will cover it. And let me tell you why it starts to impair your vision. Now, people rolled their eyes at me when I said that, but it does. When your eyelids start falling like that in the morning like you. It's like your eyes half closed.

So you.

It impairs your vision. So like my mom, for example, her insurance paid for hers because it was in impairing her vision. Like she'd have to lift it up to see. So that's the first thing. Like this is a. This is. It ca. It is cosmetic. It also can be medically necessary for some people. That's the first. But the upper eye bluff for that part of the surgery, we both did. I thought that was a pretty simple part. Did you. Did you think that was a simple part? That part?

Yes. I think the lower part for me was, you know, probably harder than your recovery. But we both had the fat transfer.

Yeah. So.

And you know, go ahead and talk.

Yeah. I'm going to talk about the lower in a minute. But as far as the upper first, like you all, if you want that. Just the upper. It's like an in office procedure. They like give you kind of just sedate you mildly. It's. It's truly easy. I mean, you heal very quick. Like within a week you're back. It's like.

It's almost like just going to the dentist.

Yes. Is so easy. And now what can go wrong with the upper? What can. If you go to a doctor that this is not their experience and they take too much skin, you will have problems. That's when you start getting Dry eye, that's when you. Your eye won't close all the way. So this is why for that procedure, if I was just doing that, I would have gone to an ocular plastic surgeon. Me, if I. Or definitely a facial. But that is something you do not want to mess with because if they take too much skin, and we're talking millimeters, it can affect dry eye and pain forever. That's the upright. Okay, so then we look at part two of the upper eye, and then we're going to talk About Lower Part 2 of the Upper eye. To get the optimal visual results, most surgeons recommend a brow lift, too. Now, I was a no for that part. The reason I was a no for that part is one I was scared of. Like, what does that mean? What does that look like? I knew it was going to be more of a recovery. I also didn't think I yet had too much of a sagging there. But if you're watching on video, when you're looking at opening your eye, the lid, the brow lift would lift up that skin that's like on the side. But to me, I was thinking, I don't want to look surprised. I didn't know what that meant. I just heard it was more recovery. It was a bigger surgery. I chose no for that part of it. Karen chose? Yes. Can you just share a little bit about why? And I know that was a bit. Much bigger recovery for you, but what was your thought process on brow lift or no brow lift?

Well, that's within consultation with the surgeons, and they agreed that, yeah, you could benefit from a brow lift. And yours looks amazing.

Yours so natural.

It's. Because it's not even that different. So I think part of me is like, was that even worth it? But my surgeon, you know, assured me, I'm like, you know, could you. I wish it was a little more like this, whatever. And he's like, no, you're you. I do natural. And this will. This will hold you for some years now without being dependent on Botox.

Yes.

You know, like, I still have all my movement. You can see the wrinkles, you can see the folding, right? Yep. And if I feel like it, I can have Botox to smooth that out. But right now it's so smooth from the brow lift that I don't. I just want to see how long can I go without that Botox?

Where do they cut for that?

Where did.

Was the scars for that?

They do it different ways. One surgeon wanted to use screws, another some use staples. And I had incisions, but Is it.

At top of your head?

Is.

It's up.

It's in the hairline.

It's in the hairline.

It's behind the hairline. Okay. And. And those scars, they hurt.

Oh, they did. Okay.

They hurt and they still do. And there's numbness. There is dead numbness.

You have a side effect from that one.

Yes. And that is very. A very common thing. Right. And that could last for a year. I could have, you know, even friends with facelifts have said, I still have numb 10 years out. Say I still have numbness behind my neck or my ears. So you. You always are going to have that risk. So he. This surgeon was able to, you know, improve the overall effect of blepharoplasty by just raising.

Yeah.

Raising the forehead a little bit and then ablating a little bit. Okay.

So that.

So that it's harder for me to make the repetitive motions and things that were causing deep.

That I have. Yeah, I have the lines there.

Deep lines.

So, yeah, your. I think yours looks amazing. I do think what you said is really key because every surgeon has a different technique for that. I know. Mine, I don't. I don't. I don't know, because I didn't have that done. But he does not cut up here that. I think he does more of a laser thing on the side. So I don't know. But it's one of those questions if you're considering upper eyes. You want to ask about the brow part, too. Yeah.

Because, you know, the brow lift can be one of the hardest facial surgeries. Like, I learned that after the fact. Yeah. But, you know, psychologically. Well, we can talk about that, too. Psychologically, there are implications to seeing your face a different way.

Oh, yeah.

It's not like you wake up one day and go, oh, my God, this is fabulous. You go through little things like, oh, my God, today, is one eye bigger than the other? Oh, my gosh. Did he take enough off of that? Like, just the dialogue that can happen inside your own head is a real thing. And, you know, a good surgeon will warn you or talk to you about psychological implications of watching your face slowly change. So, you know, that's an important consideration, and I think it's for big girls.

Yeah.

I.

It's funny. That's interesting that you brought that up. I would have not thought about that. It makes a lot of sense. I did not have that experience. Like, to me, I was like, there is me. Like, I felt like, okay, there's the face that I missed. Like, when I saw my Eyes after. I'm like, that's who I was. Thought I was looking at. Because to me, as your face starts to change, I would all of a sudden catch a glimpse in the mirror and go, wait, why. Why am I looking at my mom all of a sudden? My mom's amazing. She's 79. But. But it was like I. So to me, I feel back how I. How I should look. Like. This is. Like, this is what I was supposed to look like. So I had a little bit of a different. But I didn't have the brow part, so that might have been a different thing. Okay, so then the upper. The lower eye. Let's talk about that for a minute. So the lower eye part is called a lower eye. Bleph. And they. There's different ways to do it. And again, we're not surgeons here, so we're explaining our own research and experience. But the different doctors, they call it lower I blf. And there's different techniques for how they do it. Some call it a skin pinch, where they just take some of the skin and pinch it together. Some doctors do a more restorative approach where they add a fat transfer, where they put fat in. Some do a CO2 laser on top of it. There's lots of different techniques there. What I did was. It was an. A scarless. Scarless, which meant I was totally out. I was asleep. I was in surgery. They shield your eye. So they put, like a little shield in there. You don't feel any of this. They go inside. So there's no outside scar on mine. They remove the pocket. Mine was very small. They remove the pocket. He will tighten the skin. If you have a lot with me, he did not tighten the skin with that. He just removed the pocket. He then put fat in. Where do they take the fat? They take a little tiny bit, like a tablespoon for me. They took it from my thigh like a little tablespoon. They inject it and they go through your cheek up, and they go in through your. Your lower eye. And that's how he put my fat in, but very little. So he's talking like a teaspoon in each side.

He.

And then when that was done, they did something called a CO2 laser just under my eyes. And I have pictures of all this along the journey. Also on my Instagram, by the way, it made it look like a little bit of a burn that was completely healed. Everything on me was completely healed in six days for me. Six days, completely healed. So mine was lower. I bleph. Scarless inside CO2 laser and a fat transfer. What about you for your lower? I know you talked about your scar, but what did you do? The fat transfer.

Did you do. Yes, yes, he did a fat transfer. And that. That doesn't really go in your tear trough. It goes around your orbital area so that, you know, you have. You have support there again, and so that you don't have, like, any drag. Right? Yeah, but I. The fat transfer is interesting because it was painful and even, you know, I was under twilight and I did wake up during that portion because.

Really? Yeah.

In essence, they're doing liposuction to get the fat, and mine was taken out of my belly.

Oh, wow. Okay.

And so you. You have to also realize. Okay, if they're taking fat from a certain area, that may leave a deficit in the area where it's taken out. So I have a little, like, dimple on my lower belly under my belly button where that fat was actually removed. So now I know liposuction works for sure.

And it would hurt for sure.

Yeah.

I didn't feel mine because I was completely out, and they didn't. I don't have a dimple because he took. So what I do have is, like, I had, like, eight little tiny spots on my thigh. So he was. He took, like, these tiny little pin needle spots. So I don't have any divot or scar or anything from that. And I was out, so I didn't feel a thing.

Yeah, that. That hurt. Like, the. My abdomen hurt for. For a while.

Well, my thighs hurt. Yes, that. But I'm saying I didn't feel anything. Like, while I was having the surgery, I didn't feel anything then.

Okay, well, I did. I did have moments where I woke up.

Wow.

You know, so he was saying, if you ever come back and you want any more work done, you. We're gonna put you under.

Yeah.

You were those. That 1% of people that, you know are a little too awake. But I don't remember any of the lower blf. Any of the upper bleph. I don't remember any of the brown. I don't just. It was only that.

You know. Liposuction.

Yeah.

To get the fat under here. So I had. I did have the fat in there. And yes, at first, it's alarming because you're looking at yourself and you. You are really jacked up, you know, and my kids were like, what did you do? You know, I didn't even tell my kids I was doing this. And they're like, why are you so Jacked up. But that. The fat transfer. You know, a lot of people end up disappointed with the fat transfer because it is resorbed.

Yeah.

Into your body. Or if you have a high metabolism and, you know, it's easy for you to lose fat, you can, you know, it can be a little bit disappointing.

Totally.

So. So I guess I'm glad I did the fat transfer. If I were going to have, like, a facelift or anything down the road, I think I would just be like, no, yeah, I don't want. Don't put any more fat in. If I need to fill a line or whatever, I might go back to fuller.

Totally.

So it's just, you know, it's so.

Funny because I. I feel like you had amazing results. I'm very happy with my results. You know, people warn me, like, strangers on the Internet, not my friends, strangers. Like, you're gonna look like a freak. I don't. None of that. So depending on the surgeon you choose and doing your research and being conservative, I think people generally have great results. And what's interesting is a lot of people don't know. People. Like, I can tell you, most of my friends have had work, but they don't share it.

So.

So people think they know about plastic. They're like, oh, I can tell when someone. They don't. You can't always tell. I happen to share mine. Karen happened to share hers. But there's a lot of people that do not share, and you would not know. So when you think somebody looks amazing in their 60s, chances are they probably did something. I'm just saying, if you've listened to my podcast for any amount of time, you know, there's been lots of guests and lots of talks where we've chatted about what to eat, getting enough protein, eating healthy, the importance of it, why we want to eat organic. But I want to share that as we age, it's not just what we eat, it's what we digest. Even if we eat super healthy, clean, organic food, we can still not have the best digestion. You see, our natural ability to digest food declines with age. This is because your body produces fewer enzymes, which are the proteins responsible for digesting food. And when you have fewer enzymes, this means more difficulty digesting our food. So even organic, healthy, or what you think are perfect foods won't provide enough enzymes to properly digest them. So this is especially true if you cook your food, which most of us do, because cooking kills the enzymes. So if you've ever wondered why you might have digestion problems, even after having a healthy meal, it's because your body just can't produce enough of the enzymes to get the job done. So this is where supplementing with high quality enzyme supplements can be a huge help. So I personally use and recommend a specific digestive stack from bio optimizers which includes their mass Zymes, which is a best in class supplement loaded with full spectrum enzymes for digesting proteins, starches, sugars, fibers and fats. So when you take this enzyme daily, and I personally take them with each meal and replace the enzymes your body is no longer producing, you're able to eat all sorts of things and digest them quickly without the bloating, without the feeling, you know, puffy, without the leaky gut issues, all of that. So when you digest your food properly, you're actually getting all of the nutrients. So I've got an exclusive offer for all of my listeners if you go to bioptimizers.com forward/nataliejill again bioptimizers.com forward slash natalie jill. You can also use coupon Natalie Jill to save. You'll see my recommended stack which includes the Math Times, the HCL and the Probiotic.

Yeah, I agree. And even the ones that look deceptively natural. So you know, there's a lot of silver haired models that's very, you know, in, in the 60 and above category or even younger. Like if you're young and have and can rock gray hair in your 50s, that's just so cool. But it doesn't mean that they haven't had some kind of sense of.

Not at all. It's, it's giving the impression of natural aging. But that's, it doesn't mean that that's the whole story just because you're letting your hair go gray that you're all natural. So that's the thing about individual choice is like someone may be perfectly thrilled with letting all that silver come in, but yet getting a facelift, but yet wearing natural makeup, you know, or you.

Know, funny when I did, when I had my explant and I was very public about sharing why I was doing the explant, I was very public about sharing, you know, my detox journey and all the things I was navigating and cleaning up. And what's really funny about it is.

People got like full on. Some people got mad at me doing this.

Like I thought you were, I'm like, first of all, I never said I remember those.

I'm like, I never said that I'm Ms. Granola Natural. Like I never claimed that. So I don't know where that came from. Yeah, I mean, whatever. I have no shame in my game. Like, I never claim to be going all natural to. And what does natural mean anyway, by the way? Let's talk about this for a minute. And because most of you had braces when you were a kid, is that not natural? Okay, to. To get braces, like, we straighten your teeth. Some of you get eyebrow waxing. Is that not natural? What about bikini wax? Is that not natural? What about, like, so I'm just saying, like, it's just funny to me where people draw the line or say something is acceptable or not acceptable when, like, where does that. Where does that line end?

You know, again, it's just so personal. Like, I consider myself natural even though, you know, I had a bump taken out of my nose at 21. I've had, you know, now I've had the eyelid surgery and a brow lift, but I still appear very natural. I've had my teeth straightened twice.

Yeah. I have veneers.

Right. It's like. Right. Yeah, right. And I. My skin is beautiful. It's natural. But I get lasers every year. I get broadband light treatments. Like, I. I work on my skin. I use my red light mask. I'm, you know, following. Following a regimen, a protocol. I've used vitamin C and retin A since I was 23. Right. So there's something to say about natural. You get to define it. I think I. I appear natural because of my personality. Maybe I'm considered down to earth. And I think there's more to natural beauty than just the exterior. I think your beauty. Still, we got to remind people, you could get all the surgery you want, you could get all the filler, whatever you want. But what makes you animated? Something has to animate you, and that's. That can only be you. That's your own unique beauty from the. Absolutely. From the inside. And that's what's natural, is your animation. Yeah, right.

I agree with that. Yeah, right. I also, you know, there's a lot of opinions about. A lot of judgment and opinions about, like, I know I had a couple comments like, oh, I am so sorry that you hate yourself that much that you wanted. And I thought that was so interesting. I actually think it's the opposite. I actually don't hate myself at all. I actually love myself, and I want to. I want to feel good and I want to look good and I want to be happy. And that helps me look and feel the part that I believe I am, if that makes sense. So I don't look at it as hating myself at all. In fact, I see quite the opposite. If somebody doesn't do anything and they don't like how they're aging, that actually turns into a confidence issue and a depression and all that too. So I've seen both sides of that.

So I believe there's literally no right or wrong. It's what suits you and what you want for you.

Yep, I agree. And you have a daughter and I have a daughter. And so part of this, for me, reluctance to let her know that I was, you know, had cheat codes or something, you know, is like, I want to be careful. I want her to grow up.

Feeling confident and not necessarily looking to me for what her future is going to look like. Right. I, I want these, this generation of young women, they're, they're so afraid of, of aging now. So as moms, it's like we, we walk a very fine line of wanting to satisfy ourselves, but also show our girls that, you know, aging is going to happen. It may happen at different rates for you than it did for mom. It may, it may be completely different. You may take a completely different path than mom. So for me, that was a hard part of it. Like, I just want to. Because I know their generation, my daughter's 28 and I know that they're already just so into this whole anti aging thing that they have this built, this fear around turning 30. I mean, they're built best. Most beautiful years are coming.

Yeah, you know, it's fine. My, my daughter's 17 and we, we had a funny conversation around this. So for starters, when I was 15 years old, I had a nose job and I had the, I had a bump also. So I, when I was 15, and the conversation with my parents at 15 when I didn't like my nose was, let's get a nose job. So it was like a very normalized thing in my family. So to me, it's kind of. I laugh when people think of all this as like, weird or I'm like, I grew up with my mom being like, let's fix it if we don't like it. And I didn't take that as a bad thing. I was just like, oh, my mom is beautiful. She is beautiful. And she's 79. She looks amazing. My mom's never had a facelift, by the way, never had Botox, but she's done other things and she looks amazing. So I grew up with this, you know, you're 15, you don't like your nose, let's get it fixed. When I was 19, I got breast implants like I. That are removed now. We've all. You've heard that journey if you've been listening to my show for a while. But I grew up a little bit differently. Now. My daughter, who I think is absolutely beautiful, she's made comments about her nose before. And I don't do what my mom did. I just say, I think you're beautiful, but it's you. It's what makes you happy. And I said my only advice is to wait till you are an adult to make decisions, because I do think at 15, I was probably too young to make that decision, and at 19, certainly for the implants. So my only advice is, is not to her to not do it, or what's wrong with you, or let's go do it. It's. It's. You wait till you're an adult and you make your own decisions around. That is what I've said to her.

I think so, too. And I think the longer that kids could maybe delay those decisions, like we decide for them that they're getting their teeth then, because we think that's a health matter. Right? That's a health matter. But then the cosmetic things for them, I think, like, the longer they wait to make a change, the better they're going to feel about it either way. Like, I know. I know beautiful women that are young, 25 years old, with, you know, gorgeous expressive eyes, beautiful skin, and, yeah, they have a nose. But I admire it so much. Someone could be so confident and to go through life with, you know, a very unique nose.

Totally. And it's funny because I looked. I remember being 15 and hating mine, but I think my daughter looks beautiful, so. And I think in my mind, mine was a lot different and bigger and all the things. But I don't know. I was 15, so I don't. I don't know. But it's. It is. When people look at that now and say, you must hate yourself, I think it's actually the opposite. I don't. I don't believe that at all.

Yeah.

And I, again, I do totally think it's a personal choice. And I do think there is a line that we have to decide what that is for ourselves. I know. I was just walking with a friend in San Diego recently, and she's. She's older than me, and she was. She's done work just like I have. And she said she wants to do even more. And I said to her, I said, well, where's. Where's the line? Like, where at Some point like we have to be okay with aging. Like what is the line? I know there was a woman on the plane next to me on a recent trip and you could tell in her body like she's an 80 year old woman. Like she. And she wasn't moving muscular how, like she looked like an 80 year old bone loss woman. And you could really see her age in her body, but her face looked like a blow up doll. And I thought, okay, that didn't show me. Exactly so. Exactly. At some point where like I don't want to be that. What's that movie that we watched years ago about with Meryl Streep and you know what I'm talking about. It was age. Death becomes her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You guys have to watch that if you haven't. But it's called Death becomes Her. And it was like a funny thing about trying to stop the aging process. And at some point I do think we, we have to decide what our limit is for us, like what number or what. Where's our limit of where we are okay with some things around aging.

Yeah, I think I'm, I'm getting to that point now where like as I see my skin change and stuff around my neck, around my knees, around my elbows, no matter how, you know, I'm firm, I have, you know, I have structure under. You know, that muscle gives you structure. It helps your skin look beautiful and everything. However, right. Like right around now, this year I'm noticing, you know, creepiness, sagginess and Yeah, I don't. And my hands, my hands.

Oh yeah, hands. I really see it.

If I jack my face up, my hands are not going to match my neck. You know, you could do something with your neck. But my breasts, like, I, I don't, I've never had implants, but they have changed. Right.

So.

So what you're saying is. Yes, it can look odd when there's a big. When you're only focused on your face. Mm. So I probably hit the wall. I would say I've probably hit the wall. I, I don't think I want to risk any scarring, visible scars.

And I just want to focus on good skin care, good nutrition.

I agree with that.

I want sleep and I will definitely. I'm not going to turn into Pamela Anderson as I age and just drop all cosmetics. Hell no.

I'm not doing that either. That won't be.

No, good for you.

Good for you. I love it. I love that for her.

Yeah, I love it for her.

Not for me. You know the other thing I want to, I want to kind of address here is if you're listening to this and you are younger, you know, your 30s, your 40s, and I don't know how many listeners I have that are younger, but I want to talk a little bit about things that I wish I had done which would have, might have been more preventative and what I've learned does not work. And I'm curious your thoughts on that too, Karen. Like I would say I, as much as I love the sun for health, like I think we need real sunlight. Yes, I do regret all the tanning that I did. I think it did age my skin for sure. I think there's, there's a level of getting some. I also do regret not paying attention to products and not reading like using, being aware of like more natural products. I also do regret not wearing a hat, taking that seriously. So I'm just curious your thoughts around that.

Well, I started really young and I remember the first skin product I was into was probably I was about 21 and I had a long comb eye cream and that was how I started. And then at 23, since I still had some acne, I started using Retin A and I still believe in it and use it to this day. And I think that has saved me years on my skin.

Do you know I don't use that at all.

Wow.

You know why I don't use it though, Karen?

I'm not.

I think it's amazing the research on it. The reason I don't use it is the one year I was using it, my liver numbers were elevated and I just got concerned about where what that is and where it's going through. Maybe it's my own made up story.

I never had, I never had that.

I never had that. But I've heard amazing things about using it.

Well, I think I'm a classic case of like because I give. If you comment skin on any of my posts in Instagram, I send you a by the decades of what I did.

Oh wow, that's amazing.

Right? And so, you know, so I had the Retin A and then by 30 I picked up vitamin C daily, you know, and then you know, then I added in, you know, what are the scrubbing brush and just like everything every.

The clarisonic one that people are using.

Right. I had the clarisonic like all the tools and then the acids became a thing. Right. So in my 40, in my 40s, I really think that I had really bad melasma after having kids, horrible patches. And so I started Doing Fraxel and then realized these results are so amazing that I'm going to keep this up once or twice a year.

Yeah, yours looks. You look amazing.

Yeah. And then to maintain that, you know, the BBL broadband light treatments just to keep brown spots off there, keep sun damage. But I was not like you. I. I tanned in college in the tanning beds, which of course you're going to regret. You're going to regret that. But then I got really smart. By 30, I got really smart and I started wearing sunscreen every day. I raised my family in California. I was the only mom wearing that huge visor every day.

Oh, yeah, that was me. Yeah.

No one.

No exception.

Yeah, I wore the visor, but I did not protect my hands. Carpool. Yeah. So they.

Yeah.

Look beat up. You know, it shows me too. But anything you could do to your face, you can do to your hands and neck and chest. So I regret not paying more attention to maybe those areas.

Yeah, that makes much. Yeah, I agree with that. What do you. So that's interesting. So if we go to your Instagram, we can comment skin and get that. I'm going to be doing that today for sure. Do you have any specific products that you like? Absolutely swear by. I know, we're gonna, we're gonna go there and get that. I'll say for me, like, I love peptides, like topical peptides. So I. Right now I'm using one skin. I'm always trying different, like, things on my skin, but that's my current love is like a topical peptide. I also for my body skin, I'm obsessed with castor oil. So I. And I actually castor oil super thick. What I do, Nobody told me to do this is what I do. I take a natural, like lotion, but I mix it with castor oil. So I'll like put castor oil in my hand first and then I put lotion and then it tends to blend in easier. And I sleep with that every night. And it does. I feel like it makes your skin so soft.

Castor oil is. Is also a new thing I've picked up since I turned 60 a year ago. Right. I'll be 61 soon. But Castor oil is really thick. It's really viscous. So that's cool that you make. You're mixing it with something. I'm using that under my eyes with a rollerball product that also has, you know, because now that our eyes are done, I want to really optimize the skin under there. So for sure that peptides, serums, And I do, too. I rotate as well, but. But as long as I've always got vitamin C, retin A, peptides, and hyaluronic.

Yeah, that's another key one.

Love this hyaluronic serum that I'm using. But I also now have started integrating, and it works fantastic. Mixed with vaginal estrogen, if you're into that. I mix in organic bison tallow cream. It's like a whipped cream. It's very neutral, light, and it mixes great with that estrogen so that you can. You can either mix it on your hand or you can put the estrogen first and then the tallow over.

So I was using estriol cream, which is basically like vaginal estrogen for our face. I stopped because it brought back melasma for me. So for me, that's why I stopped. So if somebody's at risk for melasma, that can happen when you're using topical estrogen.

Yep. And you have a deeper skin type as well. Yeah, Like, I'm super light and fair, so that I. My vaginal cream is estradiol.

Okay.

But I also have an estriol face cream blend. And I can't really tell, like, why am I using both? Like the kind of girl that I just want to cover all the bases.

Yeah, right. It's good.

But when the estrogen thing, Natalie was like, that started after 60. Like, if I had been on that at 40, I probably be a modern miracle.

That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. I just, I stopped it because the melasma, like, I can't. I don't want the brown. They were definitely coming back, and they. Those don't come off with IPL or whatever. So I just did. I, I. If you have melasma and you try to do an IPL laser, it can make it worse. So I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. One thing we didn't talk about, and I want to make sure we're touching on this is the recovery from the eyes. I will say with mine, I recovered at hyperspace speed. And I'm gonna. I'll actually put my recovery guide below. Cause I actually. So many people asked me what I did. I'm gonna put a whole link. But the main things I did was I did hyperbaric oxygen. I did red light. I used beam minerals. I was spraying beam minerals religiously on my face, the topical ones. So red light, hyperbaric oxygen that. I was also injecting BPC157, which is a peptide, which promotes healing. Those are the main I healed, like, I literally healed in six days. Like, you couldn't see any evidence of swelling, black and blue. Anything at six days. What about you with your he.

I know mine was a little different, Natalie. I mean, I still think that, you know, I went out after seven days with big bruises from the fat transfer, I assume, and I just didn't care. I'm like, my neighbors seemed a little shocked. I just. Oh, I just had a cosmetic surgery. You know, I'm not being injured. People are wondering to know if somebody is. Yeah.

Very. Okay.

But, you know, after three weeks, swelling is down. You can see the forest for the trees. You're like, oh, oh, this worked. That was good. And then for me, there's been a long wait to the next stage where the scars disappear, they fade, maybe more swelling goes down.

And every day just seeing those changes. But I think my recovery, maybe because I'm older, I didn't do hyperbaric because I couldn't, because I have retina issues. And so I don't want any kind of pressure or anything like that. Totally. So I've realized, listen, people have had this surgery without that for ages. It's just going to take a little longer. But I did. I did put on my red light mask. I put my red light mask over my head to help heal the. The incisions up here from the brow. And maybe it helped, who knows? Because I didn't ever do this.

Yeah.

So I don't. But I'm going to. I'm going to do all those. Those healing things. Right. And a little bit of the scar cream under here. Hope it's helping. Don't know. Right.

You look fantastic at two months, and I'm so. Thank you for sharing with me today. I know you were hesitant initially, but I'm so glad you came on. I wanted to talk about it.

I have been reluctant, you know, because of the judgment and because, you know, people always want to know, what do you do for your skin?

Yeah.

And so it's like, okay, well, I guess you don't want. I guess I won't tell you about my eye journey. It's like when they come to me about anything cosmetic, it's always about myself. Skin. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And so since this wasn't about skin and I like to keep the focus on my platform about health, more or less from the inside out. I get that. Other kinds of aging conversations. But I did share one picture today on Instagram.

I saw that.

I tagged you. I shared, and I said. I'm talking to Natalie about this on her platform.

I love it.

I don't know if I'll ever bring it to my platform and address it. Yeah, I get it. But and that's okay.

That's your choice to do it is where. Where can they find you? Where is your tell them your Instagram handle. Where do you want people to go?

Start at my Instagram. Karen M. Carlson K A R L S E N and on Tick Tock. I'm this boomer mom. I love it. And Tick Tock. I talk about things about being of our generation I love or less.

You have a great Tick Tock.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you so much Karen for doing this today. Thank you.

You too. What a pleasure.

Thanks for tuning in to midlife Conversations today. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and tag me, Natalie, Jill Fitz and our guests on social Media the best way to support the show is by leaving a review. Send a screenshot of your review to supportataliejillfitness.com for a free digital DSR journal download. And just a friendly reminder, I'm here with a microphone, not a medical degree. Half the time I'm sharing things that I read on the Internet or learned just as you were learning it while I'm interviewing the guest. I'm not an MD or your therapist or your mom, though I do give excellent mom style pep talks. This podcast is purely for entertainment, curiosity and educational purposes. When in doubt, please ask your own doctor. For advertising inquiries, contact salesadminategory3ca and this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice. Always seek advice from your physician. Some episodes of midlife conversation may be sponsored by products or services, and I may receive compensation for advertisement of your purchases through affiliate links.

Sam.