449: Breaking Vegan: A Physician's Health Journey from Vegan to Carnivore with Aimie Apigaian

When I all of a sudden could not move, I could not exercise because it hurts so much. That was when I started to experience all of this grief, all of this sadness, all of this anger. The emotions that had been stored in my body were now surfacing. And without the escape that I could use with the exercise, it became overwhelming. And all of a sudden I felt like I was falling apart. I was losing control.

Before we get started on this episode, if you've been trying to release weight, but you've been worried about losing muscle too, then that's common. And with weight loss, when we lose it, when we lose weight, we lose typically both fat and muscle. Unfortunately, we lose both, but we want to preserve that muscle because muscle is our metabolism and the more muscle we have, the more total calories we burn at rest. And I want you to help preserve muscle. And that's where one of my sponsors, Kion Aminos, can make a huge difference. Now, Kion Aminos is something I found on my own, but when I was looking for aminos that did not have artificial junk in it and I found them, they taste amazing and they help prevent muscle loss, help you feel full when you're eating less, and they support building lean muscle so you can boost your metabolism and get that tone strong look you're working for. Personally, I've been using Kion Aminos and have noticed a huge difference. Especially on days when my protein intake is not quite perfect, I feel stronger, my recovery is faster, and I'm able to stick to my nutrition goals without feeling like I'm sacrificing muscle becomes a total game changer. I personally love the berry flavor. They're all great, but that's me and my husband's favorite flavor. And I love that. Kion Aminos gives you all nine essential amino acids, not just three like BCAAs or eight like some other brands, they give you nine. It's the ideal ratios backed by 20 years of research. Plus they're completely transparent about their formula so you know exactly what you're getting. So if you're looking for an easy, high quality way to support your body, I highly recommend giving Kion Aminos a try. Use my link getkeon.com nataliejill that's getkeon. K-I-O-N.com nataliejill and you'll save 20% on your first order. Go check it out. Welcome to Midlife Conversations. I'm your host, Natalie Jill, and I'm passionate about having amazing conversations that matter to us midlife women. On this podcast, I Do what I do best, taking complicated health topics and breaking them down simply so that we can optimize aging together. I share actionable steps to help you thrive in what I believe are our best years to come. Join me as I interview the most inspiring people living their best midlife years and dive into essential topics like hormone changes, health optimization, weight management, blood sugar, emotional well being, relationships, beauty, and so much more. If you are ever or have ever considered being a vegan, if this is something that has been a top of mind conversation for you, you've looked at it, you've thought it was healthy eating, then this may be a conversation for you. Lots of times people ask me about being a vegan. They've asked if they can be parts of my programs, if they are one. And I've always said I totally respect the idea behind it. I love that you do that for the reasons that you do. But for me, I've not felt it's the best way for fat loss as we age. I've not felt it was the best way to optimize aging. So it's not been what I've taught. I am a fan of plants. I love plant based eating in a lot of ways. I love fruits and vegetables. I love teaching that. But vegan has not been my expertise. So today what I wanted to do on midlife conversations is I've got a double board certified physician in preventative and addiction medicine. I've got Amy App again, did I pronounce that right? Amy, I should have asked you that before I hit record. Did I pronounce your last name right?

It's all good. It's a pigeon.

A pigeon.

Which is why I just go by.

Dr. Amy because it just makes everything okay, Dr. Amy. But that's rude of me. You know, I got to get better at that. Every episode I, I forget to ask how to pronounce and then I and then I do that to my guest. So a pig again. But we're going to say Dr. Amy today. Dr. Amy. I wanted to have her on today because not only is she a super knowledgeable physician and author and speaker and all of the things, but she herself was a vegan most of her life. Most of her life. And spoiler alert, she's not anymore. But we're going to talk about all the things today. So thank you so much for being here, Dr. Amy.

Oh, thank you, Natalie. I'm really glad to be here and really happy to serve you and your audience.

I can't wait for this conversation. So I want to back up if we didn't lose people that want to be a vegan or thinking about it first. I want to kind of honor why people choose that path to begin with. And I want to understand from you, like, where that came from. Was that how you were raised? Why did you decide that? And I'll tell you, me personally, I, like, I have a personal relationship with cows. Like, I feel like when I see a cow, I have like an actual. I'm like, I feel them, I love them. So. So I didn't actually eat red meat for over 30 years for that reason. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on where that even came from that you were a vegan.

I did grow up vegetarian. And so for the first 10 years of my life, we were a vegetarian family. And that was based on both our religion, but the religion was very focused on health. And so it was my understanding that being vegetarian and then being vegan was the healthiest choice. Not the healthier, the healthiest. And so I even had some pride around that, right? Like, oh, I'm vegan, I know the best way to eat. And to be fair, Natalie, there are lots of studies that show that eating meat can increase your risk for cardiovascular disease, heart attacks. And so it seemed to all fit together that I was living the healthiest life and choice for my body. And little did I know what was actually happening.

When you were told that and believing that, was it more the idea of avoiding animal based products or avoiding meat, or was it more the idea that plants heal? Like, what was the healthy conversation coming from there?

Yeah, it was both. So it was this idea of plants are the healthiest and this idea that we were naturally designed to eat only plants. And then it was only until afterwards that we started eating meat. And then that's what contributed to all this disease. And so being taught that and then having the evidence and the research and the published articles to support that, I never even questioned it.

Wow. So your family was this. So your parents all, all that. And what did you feel good as? Like, do you remember, if you remember how you ate and you felt, did you always feel healthy? Was it. Tell me how that that was because I know a lot of that can't relate to that, that have lived off of meat. They say they can't imagine just living that way.

So here's the challenge. When this is what you've always known, you don't know any different, so you don't have anything to compare it to. I did not feel well, but I didn't know that Other people felt better. So I just thought that this was how everybody must feel so we can normalize. Exactly. And there's so much of that in life in general. Right. Like, for those of us who also didn't have a safe, secure relationship growing up, we can't imagine anything different because we never had that. So we assume that everybody feels alone and overwhelmed like we do. So same thing with my health. I remember looking back now and thinking, wow, Like, I remember being constipated at age 7, at age 8. And yet again, I thought that this was normal. I didn't even question it. I didn't even tell my parents. It was just my normal. I remember craving, and I mean craving carbs and bread and milk. And I would eat cereal and toast with peanut butter all the time, all day long. And every time that I felt stressed or alone or neglected, I was back food binging. And again, I thought that this was normal. I never even questioned it until later in my life when something happened and I had to question all of that.

Now, you were vegetarian. Did you go to vegan at one point? And what's the difference, if you could share with that, the difference between vegetarian and vegan?

So we made the transition from vegetarian to vegan around the time that I was 10 and 11. And the difference is, is that vegetarian will still eat animal products like eggs, like dairy, milk, whereas a vegan is none of those animal products either. So eggs, dairy are taken out. Some vegans, even butterf to take butter and honey out because honey is an animal product made from bees. I didn't go that far. But butter, dairy, all of, all of those animal products were out of my diet by the age of 11.

Now, before I get into what changed, what created you or how long you were doing that, you mentioned a minute ago that there's a lot of studies that kind of support that. When you say there's a lot of studies, tell us what you are referring to. Like, just in, in general, it could be a specific thing, but in general, like, I remember hearing about the China Study, for example. This to me seemed to have convinced a lot of people that should avoid all animals. So from your perspective, what happened there with these studies?

There are a lot of studies. And part of that, part of my understanding of these studies is that I went to medical school at Loma Linda University, which is a vegetarian campus.

Wow.

And they do a lot of nutritional studies to look at and bring this information to the public around a healthy diet. And so when we look at the research, the published articles There are a lot of articles that show that eating meat compared to not eating meat increases one's disease burden and mortality. And the way that the studies are done show it very clearly that for those who are on a plant based diet, their cholesterol goes down. And so they've associated that with the decreased incidence of, of heart disease and vascular disease. So we do have strong evidence that a plant based diet decreases these lab numbers that are associated with different disease outcomes.

Okay, I have questions here, a lot of questions. Good. And I want to get back to your story here. So it's been my belief, this is just Natalie's belief, not a proven thing. It's been my belief that the reason people, when they compare that is that we're not comparing to a truly unprocessed natural food diet. That if we're eating a natural unprocessed food diet, whether you're vegan, vegetarian or carnivore, if you're eating real foods in their natural state, and I mean without antibiotics, without hormones, without the energy, and I believe energy transfers too, so how the animal is raised, that I believe, yes. It's absolutely without a doubt healthier to eat unprocessed. But when putting it in a lump sum that animal products or meat is bad, I have felt we're comparing to meats with nitrates or meats with hormones and antibiotics, or poorly raised or even charred meat. So help me here. Is this just my opinion or is there some science behind this?

Well, you have to understand that at the time when I realized that, I didn't think that staying vegan was an option for me and my mental health, my mental health, I really had to do some soul searching, Natalie, because this was my identity. This was a source of pride for me that I ate healthy and healthier than anyone else. So to consider changing was a big deal for me.

It's an identity change.

Yes. So that's when I went back to the research and I looked at these studies and I said, what exactly are they looking at? Is this, is this actually true? The assumptions that we've taken from these studies? And I came to the conclusion that the way that they're doing their studies, they're looking at people who are eating McDonald's versus people who are eating a plant based diet. So it's the how you're cooking your meat, what quality of meat are you eating? But that would be the same thing as looking at, are you eating organic plants versus not organic plants. There is going to be a difference. And we have those studies, we can look at people's urine and see, oh my goodness, your body is full of pesticides and glyphosates. And so it's not just eat plants or eat meat, it's the quality of food that we need to look at. And those are the studies that are not being done, Natalie. They're not looking at are you eating a quality grass fed meat versus quality plants and really comparing the difference. And one other aspect that I started to challenge was this whole idea of cholesterol being bad.

Okay, help us with that because from.

My understanding in my biochemistry studies, it's clear that we actually need cholesterol. Cholesterol is a fatty layering around our neurons and our cells that is necessary for health. So I started to question, it's protective, it's protective. Why would I want to lower my cholesterol? Okay, so what I came to the conclusion is that it's not the cholesterol itself that is bad, it's the cholesterol and inflammation. It's that combination that then makes us sick. And so then my focus became, well, then how can I decrease my inflammation? How can I be focused on taking in more antioxidants? How can I be focused on creating a biology of safety rather than what I clearly had, which was more of a trauma biology that was creating all kinds of havoc by now in my physical health and my mental health?

Okay, a lot of questions here. I'm going to start with what was going on in your health or your life. And you said mental that had you say, I'm going to step away from this identity of being vegan and holier than thou with my nutrition. Because that's, that's the attitude that I just picked up that some, sometimes not all of you listening don't come at me. Some, some come at with that belief, right? That's a big deal. It's an identity shift. So what was going on that had you say, I've got to shift this, I got to look at this differently.

The short story that led up to the moment that changed everything for me was that during medical school I became a foster parent and I adopted. I'm a single parent in medical school and I adopt this 4 year old who landed in my home from the county. And the reason why I adopted him, Natalie, was because I saw what his life would be like if I didn't get him out of the foster care system. But the process, the experience, I had him for six years, the experience.

Shifted my whole perspective. And all of a sudden I could see that I Had more trauma in my body than what I realized.

And then I went through the hardest time of my life. I had an accident, my first real accident where I broke my collarbone. And all of a sudden I couldn't exercise. And Natalie, I had used exercise my whole life to manage my emotions without even realizing it.

Yeah.

And when I all of a sudden could not move, I could not exercise because it hurts so much. That was when I started to experience all of this grief, all of this sadness, all of this anger. The emotions that had been stored in my body were now surfacing. And without the escape that I could use with the exercise, it became overwhelming. And all of a sudden I felt like I was falling apart. I was losing control. And I'm trying to. Also I was now in surgery residency trying to maintain a very busy work schedule with. While trying to manage these emotions that I've never had to feel before because I could always over exercise.

Wait, this is a very evolved conversation and very like, very self aware. How did you figure that out? Because I think a lot of people completely miss that link. Like a lot of people turned, I mean, me included, we turned to exercise. But how did you figure out, wait, I'm not able to exercise? And now this is manifesting differently? Like, how did you even connect those dots?

I mean, I want to say, thankfully, because of my experience adopting Miguel and seeing how his trauma presented. And it was like a window into my own soul and my own body. And I realized how similar we were, how much I had actually been guarding my heart against love and connection in order to stay safe. So I had a running start because I had now become more self aware on how I was avoiding certain emotions and certain levels of intimacy and vulnerability and connection with people because it didn't feel safe. And I had never realized that before. So coming in with that awareness, then all of a sudden I have this accident and I just feel my body. It felt like it was going crazy and it wanted to move, it needed to move. It needed just even to stretch. But I couldn't stretch because I had my arm in a sling. And so feeling my body's impulses to want to do something, it's like having cravings for the chocolate, but you go to the cupboard and the cupboard is locked. Yeah, you are very aware right now that you desperately want that chocolate or.

You get some sugar free, fat free fake alternative. That's just. You're like, this isn't going to work.

And because you can't have it, you become even more aware of how much you Want it. It's when we are able to just grab it and not think about, wait a second, why am I reaching for the chocolate right now? That we do so many things that are unaware, but it's when we are craving something and we can't access it that all of a sudden we realize how dependent we are on that one thing and how much our body thinks that it needs it for survival. Not just this is a want. My body feels like it needs this to survive.

Okay, this is going a lot of layers that I wasn't expecting, but I. But I like this. So I'm that person. Like, I have to move, I have to shake, I have to work out. And when I've had injuries, I can relate to what you're saying.

And.

But you're saying because you were watching your foster child having their his own issues, and you started connecting back. This is emotional trauma creating that. So now you're thinking, wait, if I can't move and I'm feeling this way, maybe it's not just about not being able to move. Maybe there's something deeper there. Did I say that right?

Exactly. And no longer could I have a channel to easily access, to avoid, numb, and distract myself from my own feelings and emotions.

And this is where a lot of people will turn to addiction. Like, they'll turn to self tube there.

Yes. And that is partly why it inspired me to become an addiction medicine physician, because I actually started in surgery. So it was this whole life and career change for me. But one of the critical pieces in all of this was discovering that in my process for needing to avoid my own feelings, that I had a methylation imbalance. Okay, now that may not sound significant, but why is that significant? The people with my kind of methylation imbalance, Maybe it's you as well, Natalie.

Yeah, I definitely am a teeth. We're all entrepreneurs. We all find each other.

Right?

Exactly.

We have to move. Like our body needs to be in movement.

Yes.

And so when I discovered that I had this methylation imbalance, and it explained a lot of the emotional, mental, and physical health challenges that I was having, then I realized, wait a second. My own biology is holding me back. My own biology is actually creating a susceptibility for overwhelm, for burnout. And I've got to do something about this biology. And the more that I looked up this under methylation pattern, it kept saying to me, you need to eat more protein under methylators. Need more protein. And that, Natalie, was the moment where I was like, shoot, I think I've got to try something different than what I've ever done before and what my identity has been in order to save my life.

Okay, I like where this is going, so let me questions now. So.

When you say eat more protein, one of the big things we'll hear from vegetarians and vegans is they can get plenty of protein from their vegetables or their tofu or their hemp or their whatever. What are your thoughts around that and help us understand like a complete protein versus not complete. And is it possible, truly possible, from a medical standpoint, to get enough protein being a vegan?

You sound like my mother. Right?

We get plenty of protein from the plants that we eat. Let me show you the numbers. And this, Natalie, is where it really comes down to personalization. Each person, each person has a unique need for their own biology, for how much protein they need and in what form.

Right?

Because like you say, there's incomplete proteins, there's complete proteins, and there's different ways to digest that. And in our world today, we're also exposed to so many toxins, and those get stored in our gut and affect our digestive abilities. So we may not even be able to digest in the right way the proteins that we're eating. So I have not found any other way than for people to just experiment.

Because in my mind, so. And I have those that same mth MTHFR I have, and I've done my DNA, and for me, I did not. I stopped eating red meat when I was 12. I'm 53. I just started eating again at 52. So 12 to 52. So, gosh, 40 years. Did not have red meat. I had chicken, I had fish. When I added red meat back, it's like my life just completely changed. I'm like, what in the world now my body craves it. It's different. And I cannot argue how I feel. I feel a world of different eating red meat than I do even fish than I definitely do eating quinoa and tofu. Like there's, there's nothing compares to that. And I, I under, again, Natalie's opinion, not science here, but I, I feel when I eat quinoa, for example, or tofu, it's not digesting and absorbing the same way. So even though I might by number be getting the protein, it is not going into my body that same way that when I eat red meat, it does. So, yes, I love cows, and I have a really. But I also love my love life, and I love being able to help others and thrive and be on point and focus And I see the connection when I eat humanely raised grass fed all the stuff. So there's a difference. So that's just my experience, not research. So I want to go a little deeper here with you because you just said something really key. You said unless you try, how do you know? Hey there Natalie Jill here, interrupting the show for just a moment to tell you about one of my favorite show sponsors, Just Thrive. Did you know that 99.9% of probiotics are actually dead before they even reach our gut? I didn't know this before, but it's true. If a probiotic needs refrigeration to stay alive, how the heck is it going to survive in our 98.6 degree body and stomach acid? This is why I personally just love the Just Thrive probiotic. In my experience they are different because their probiotics are designed to arrive alive in your gut, making them incredibly effective compared to other brands that I've tried. Since I started taking Just Thrive, I've noticed my digestion feels more comfortable, my energy levels are better, and maintaining my weight goals has become even easier. Who doesn't love that? Of course, individual results can vary, but this has been my personal experience experience. They come in an easy to take capsule. If you can swallow or if you're not a pill swallower, you can open it up and mix it into your coffee or your smoothie or you can do what I've been doing and that's their delicious gummy option that's perfect for everyone in the family and I appreciate that it's gluten free, non GMO and completely vegan. Just Thrive stands behind their products with satisfaction guarantee. You can actually try it for 90 days in 2025 and if you don't love how you feel, they offer a full refund. And as a listener of midlife conversations, you can Visit just thrive health.com and save 20% on your first order of a 90 day bottle by using my code Natalie Jill. That's just thrivehealth.com promo code Natalie Jill. Thanks to Just Thrive for sponsoring our show and supporting our Midlife Conversations community. Visit just thrive health.com and save 20 on your first 90 day bottle of just Thrive probiotics with promo code Natalie Jill.

The first time that I ever ate meat, Natalie was in Colombia. Cartagena, Colombia. Actually I was on vacation so that no one else would see.

Yeah, because you had your identity. Remember it's her she's got hiding here.

And so I ate fish for the first time.

Were you having a weird talk with yourself. Like, this is weird. Was it grossing you out? Like, what was happening?

Oh, totally. All of that. Yeah.

That's how I was. Red meat again. Yeah.

To never have eaten meat. And all of a sudden, I'm eating a fish that had eyes, that had life, that was this morning itself was alive. Right. Now it's dead, and I'm eating it. There was so much. So much that, again, it really had, for me, had to come down to a really crucial thing of, yes, but I'm losing my life. I am not the person that I want to be. This is not the life that I want to live. And I want to feel excited when I wake up again. I want to be excited about life again. And so I'm assuming you, before you.

Went there, you were trying. You were adding the B vitamins, you were doing all the methylated vitamins, you were trying all the things, but you're saying something's not right, and you're coming up with research going, wait a minute. I can't deny this research. How do I know if I don't try?

So I try. And here's what I would want people to be able to really do for themselves is be so connected with your body that you can feel the difference. And to be honest, that's a challenge. Most people today are living disconnected, but the more connected that we can be, the more that we can notice. And within two hours of eating that first fish, I had more energy. The brain fog lifted. I had more clarity. It was like the light bulbs turned on, and I was like, oh.

Oh, my gosh.

This is what it feels like to be alive.

And then within 24 hours, that was gone. And I was like, where did it go? I want that back. Which then led me to eat the next fish. And the same thing happened. Within a few hours, my depression lifted. Wow. Anxiety softened. By then, I had had another car accident and broken my clavicle again. And I was moving into this chronic pain pattern. And I was like, no, no, no, no. We are not going to become that patient of chronic pain. The pain lifted. And this was all within a few hours of eating a fish.

Yeah.

And then it would be gone within 24 hours. So that was when, for me, that's.

How I feel with red meat, by the way.

My body is so depleted that the effects wear off this fast. So that's then what prompted me to take the next step of, okay, well, then let me eat fish more regularly. And that helped. However, it also became not enough. And so then I started adding other things. The first time that I ate red meat, it was that same effect where it's like I noticed the difference almost immediately.

Yeah, it's true.

Undeniable difference. And it was.

Yeah, it is undeniable.

It was a difference for me, Natalie, that it was like, this is who I want to be.

So what happens, do you think, when people have eaten a meat based diet? So they've eaten meat based and now they've gone the other way, they've gone to vegan and they say, I feel so good the first year. What do you think is going on there?

I hear that a lot. And what I think is happening is that it's their body having been exposed to the toxins that are very common with how we're eating our meat. The oils especially, how are we heating the oils, are we doing the barbecue, are we doing the frying, are we doing these ways of preparing the meat that are unhealthy and are toxic to our body? And so then when we switch off of that and we go to plant based, there is this ability to clean things out and the toxins themselves will help us feel better. However, what I've seen is that it's this, it's, it's a time issue and your body is not getting the amount of protein and nutrients that it needs. And for a while it's okay because we've built up a buffer depending on how long you've been on that diet. But you're going to reach the point where you run out of your buffer, you run out of your reserves and that's when you're going to start not feeling well and you may not connect it because you thought that you felt better on this diet.

Right.

And so you're not realizing that it's just that your body's run out of the reserves.

Now I personally know to the only two, two people that have been vegan their whole life that are extremely fit, healthy, lean on top of it, but only two, they're friends of mine. I don't argue, I'm not trained but. And I believe that for them it's amazing. I think for them and we're all different. They don't have my genetics, they don't have your genetic. We're all different, they have different blood type. There's a lot going on there. So I don't think it's a one size fits all in my opinion, that this person needs to be vegan. Like, I think it's a very personal, but I think there's a lot to be said with we get to personalize what's working for us and so we can feel optimal. And I have seen lots and lots of women in the fat loss stages. Right. Because I deal with fat loss women, 40s, 50s, 60s, and when they go, when they're struggling with fat loss, if they are eating primarily plant based, that is hindering their results. I've seen that. So when they say, well, but I know so. And so I say, okay, well, but are you doing exactly what they are doing? Are you living? Because if they are not, you've got to like try this on and take a listen here. Because they don't go together. Just saying I'm healthy is not an identity with I'm vegan. So I want to ask you about that. Why does there tend to be a cult like following and a mean cult like following with some vegans? Some don't come at me right now, y'.

All.

Some of you, some of you are nice. Yes. Some people are downright mean. Like, why, what is that? Is that the beat efficiency? What's going on?

This is that biology of trauma that I was talking about. Yeah. So what we want to consider is our nutrition fuels everything. It becomes our thoughts, it becomes our emotions, it becomes our actions, our behaviors. And so when we're looking at what are we eating, I'm also looking at what are the patterns in the rest of your life?

Because all of the patterns in our life ultimately are affected by what we eat. So if this is serving you and if this is the healthiest for you, then you're going to be healthiest in all the areas of your life.

And you'll be nice to people, too. You'll be nice to people. You're not going to.

You won't feel threatened by someone eating a different way than you. If you're feeling threatened by someone doing and living life differently than you, then that's an insecurity. You're coming from a place of fear rather than a place of security and safety.

Okay, so I'm going to go there with another question because there's the people listening for the animals. So they say, but I'm protecting the animals. They don't want to be eaten. They are not meant to be eaten. That's not nice. Who's looking out for them? And I, I want to. The first thing I'm going to say on this is I, I love animals. I respect that opinion. If you are in the woods by yourself and there's a hungry wolf or a lion, I'm going to tell you right now that reasoning will not work with them. They will eat you, period. They will eat you. So I'm going to say that first and then I want to ask your opinion about all this. You can, you can try to reason with the wolf or the lion. They will eat you. The tiger too.

I'm right there with you. Where there's, there's a cycle of life, there's a circle of life and we can look at what nature does and we can either say this is, this is how life is or we can look at what nature does and say, oh, there's some dark sides of nature and we're human beings and we're better than that.

I don't know. Right. Like, I definitely fall into that camp of I love animals. And for me personally, this has taken my gratitude to a new level. So that when I was eating plants there wasn't as much thought process for me of expressing and feeling gratitude for something else and it's nourishment of me. But now that I'm eating something that also really, truly had life, I'm definitely pausing before I eat. And there is that immense gratitude that I feel of. Thank you, thank you for what you are doing to help me nourish my body.

One of my good friends, Dr. Amy Hornman, who I've had on my show many times, she's a girly girl, but she hunts. And I'm like, that's the one thing we definitely do not have in common. Not only does she hunt, but she like cleans the animal and eats it and she speaks the same way you are right now. She's like, I have so much gratitude for this animal. And so she, it's, it's interesting. I don't think I'm there. I actually, I know I'm not there. I'm not going to be hunting and eating my own food. That's not happening. But I do have some of my own rules, just how I feel about it. Like I only want to eat the ones that are humanely raised who, that had a good life. So I'm not dealing with cage free, abused or any like they've had a good free life. They also don't have antibiotics or hormones like these are and they're grass fed and finished. So they, they literally had. I do think in addition to looking at why we don't want antibiotics or hormones or all those things, I think energy transfers and maybe I'm just a highly weird, woo intuitive person, I don't know. But I actually feel energy transfers. And if, if an animal Lived in captivity or fear or whatever. I feel like that energy transfers, I just, I'm curious your thoughts around all of that.

I am one of those physicians who's strongly science based and also then has this sense of there is more to the quantum world than what we know. And there are vibrations, life is vibrations, life, life transfers, energy transfers. And so for that reason, I will be very picky about the meat that I eat because I am only wanting to feed and nourish myself with the life energy, not with fear energy. So good.

What advice do you have for somebody that's listening? And I don't know that we got many of them. I'm gonna be real. Some of the. If they're like true vegan, they tuned out, they're like, they don't like this. They're already mad, leaving a mean comment, they don't like this. But if they're still here listening and they're like, wait, I am hearing you, maybe there's something to my mood. What advice do you have for them? Because this is their identity also.

This is. And, and so this is, this is not an easy step that we're asking people to even consider. And so for me, that would be coming back to this idea of can we be open to the idea, to the possibility that what we've done is not what will always be best for us. That my body changes, my body's needs change over time. And what I would encourage, strongly encourage people to do, is to start to see themselves as a partner with their body.

And how can we together learn how to live life the way that we want to show up for life? How can we work together to become the kinds of people that we want to be? And that requires a beautiful relationship with my body where I'm listening to what it needs and I'm responding to it. And from what I've seen, especially with all of my patients, they are sick in part because they've been pushing their body, they've been driving their body, they've been telling their body what they expect it to do and then get frustrated when it can't perform at that level. And then they punish it or they, you know, flog it or eat chocolate and destroy it further. Yeah. So this idea of really being able to partner with our body and form a beautiful relationship so that I can listen and I can hear, what is it that you need? And even if there are parts of me or my mind feels challenged by what my body says, I really need this right now. Being open to the idea of, well, it may not be this way forever, but right now, this is how I can support my body so that it can support me.

Now, what about psychologically? Like, so they get that, but they're like. Like you looking at the fish and going, wow, I'm actually eating something that was alive this morning. Like, any advice or guidance there? Like, do you recommend they start with a protein shake?

I don't know.

I don't like. Well, how do you. How do you recommend any advice? There's like, I'll never forget my daughter. She was like. My daughter's 17 now. She must have been, like, 6 years old. And she. I remember we're eating chicken for dinner, and she. And she, like, connected the dots. She's like, mom, is this the chicken that, like, goes bach, Bach, like, oh, my God, yes. I just remember that. The little kid version of that. So, yeah. What. What do you. What advice?

So this is actually going to be the same advice that I am going to give people for any change that they're wanting to make in their life. And the way that I work with this is actually goes back to the integrative approach that I use for trauma, where there are three different levels that we need to address to fully create change in our life. And one of those levels is our thoughts and our beliefs. And I have found parts work to be very helpful for this. So this is where. What work?

What did you call it?

Parts work. Parts work, yeah. Meaning, like, I have a part of me that's really, really disgusted by this meat. I have a part of me that cares deeply about animals and finds it hard that I would consider eating an animal. But it's just one part of me, Natalie. It's not all of me. Yeah. The same thing when I'm working with people with grief. Right. I have one part of me that feels really deeply in grief right now. Yeah. And I have another part of me that can still appreciate the rain, that can appreciate the sunshine. So it's just one part of me. And when I can. When I can separate it as just one part of me that is having a hard time with this, well, then I can work with it just like I would a child who's having a hard time with going to their first day of school or having a hard time making a change in their life. I come in with patience, and I come in with negotiation. I understand that this is hard for you. What do you need from me to be willing to take the first step with us?

Got it. Okay. And I would imagine, like, it's not about all animal. Like maybe if you're a vegan, you start with egg or you start with it like you start with whatever feels right to you. I have a friend who's a vegan and she does. She's pescatarian, more so she'll do fish every now and again. So it's what fits right with you. I have a lot more questions for you, but I want to. I want to ask you really important when it comes to meat, as a physician, what are the. Please make sure you avoid it. And I want to specifically ask about grilled charcoal burnt, because that, if my understanding is correct, that does create nitrates. Is that when you and glyco. Sorry, what's it called? Glycation. Right. So can we talk a little bit about glycation, nitrates, carcinogen. Can we ever have grilled meat? What's the warning on that? Like, how do you cook meat to be safest?

So the safest way to cook meat is to be able to do lower temperatures for longer periods of time. So this is where you're going to set the oven to 250 and the chicken for longer period of time to make sure that it's thoroughly baked, but yet you're not going to those high temperatures that change the fats.

Okay. And so it's changing the fat that's the problem.

Exactly. And so we have fats are made up of these oxidative material. So fatty acids, right. Fatty acids, we know are healthy for us, Omega fatty acids. In fact, we can get supplements that are just fatty acids. So we know that fatty acids are healthy and they're very healthy. We have omega threes. We don't want to do as many omega 6s. But that's just it. When we are overheating the fat, they turn into the bad fat. They turn into these toxic fats that are carcinogens and that make us sick.

So if you're doing a leaner cut of meat, that's one way to help avoid. But still, it is the temperature point because. And is this also what goes wrong with a lot of olive oil brands? Because it's not meant to be high heat. It turns carcinogenic.

Exactly. Any oils, any fat, okay. Are not meant to be heated to that degree. So anytime that you have something that's burned, okay. You have something that is grilled, fried, those are very high temperatures and it's changing the fat to be more stress and toxic to your body. So I actually.

You probably braise your stuff, don't you? You like, cook it in Water. Are you going to tell us to boil our turkey and our food?

That's really for real? I do. Yeah.

For red meat, too.

Yes. I mean, I'm going to give the context that a year ago this month, I went on a full carnivore diet. I have not eaten a plant.

Wow. Okay. I got questions about that, too.

But go.

I want to stay on how we prepare meat first. And then I got to ask you about that.

Yep. So knowing that I was making this decision. Yep. Knowing all the science that I know, I knew that it was going to be so important for me to make sure that it was healthy, that it was nourishing my body. Totally toxic. So I boil my meat in water.

Okay. And I want to. So everyone can kind of follow here. So when you create oxidative stress, one of the strong ways to get rid of oxidative stress is antioxidants. If she's not eating vegetables or fruits, and we're gonna ask in a minute about that, then we don't have a way to counter the oxidative stress. So if you are listening to this and you are not carnivore, but you're. It's a combination, and you're eating. You might not. This might not apply as strictly is. That's what I. That's what I'm understanding a little bit. Kind of, sort of. Am I jumping to conclusion there?

We always want to be taking antioxidants.

From a. From a perspective of a physician who works with trauma stored in the body. I actually say that antioxidants are some of the most important things that a person can take for their mental health.

So how do you do it if you're not having fruits and vegetables?

I. I do supplements.

So you'll take, like, CoQ10 and resveratrol and vitamin C polyphenols.

Exactly.

I'd imagine. Okay, so you're supplementing. So you're getting them. You're just not eating. Tell us why. And spoiler alert, I am. There's nothing she's gonna say to me right now that's gonna make me give up vegetables. I'm like a brontosaurus, Amy. I literally. I eat all things. I crave my body again, we're all made up different. My body literally craves vegetables. I eat them like a brontosaurus. I eat lots of them. I do not have an oxalate problem. They work for me. I like them. So it's. No matter what you say, I'm not giving them up. But I want to hear from You. Why did you give them up? And why would somebody consider wanting to giving them up?

I never thought that I would be on this kind of a diet, and I'm still surprised. Still surprised. And please don't call my mother and tell her. Right.

She.

Okay.

Because your mom doesn't know. She doesn't know. Oh, my gosh. That's hysterical.

Subscribe to my podcast. My gosh. Gonna cause drama in the family.

Gonna cause drama. And then that'll be another phone call. Right? But the. What I was experiencing at that time was new digestive issues that I had never had before. And as I got to the bottom of it, I realized that I was having a level of anxiety and insecurity that I had never had before.

Okay.

Never had before. It was a new level of growth for me, but a growth that was taking me into my edge, that was causing me so much anxiety and insecurity in the background that it was totally messing up my gut. So I was all of a sudden having a lot of pain, a lot of bloating. I'd already done the stuff for Parasites with Laura Frontera, Already already done, you know, the sibo stuff. I'd already done all of the other.

Stuff, all the topics I've interviewed about. Everything. Every thing.

Yep, everything, everything. And here is this remaining residual. But I just don't feel well. And it's now starting to, again, affect my life and who I want to be and how I want to show up in life. So I started experimenting around. Right, Experimenting. That's what I'm going to recommend that people do to see what I could eat that would have me feel, well, I want to feel well. And I noticed that as I started to cut foods out, I mean, I was already on a very healthy diet. Blueberries, broccoli, I mean, all of these strong antioxidants. But I noticed that when I was eating those, I would have more pain. So I started taking those out until the only thing I was left with was meat. And especially red meat was really what was nourishing to my body. So I do think that we go through different phases of our life, different times of growth, different times of change. Change is really hard on the body, and our body will need different things. And so for right now, this is what my body feels.

This is your season. This is your season. So she's not saying she's never having a piece of birthday cake or she's never having an apple. That's not what's happening. It's just right now, you're craving this. So what do you say to. I have another friend who is a breast cancer survivor and she has made the decision that she wants, based on her research and what's working for her body, that she went pretty much vegan. Like, that's just what's working for her. What are your thoughts around cancer, Amy? Do you think it is more the carcinogenic and like when you're burning it and the way we're cooking it and preparing it or what are your thoughts around that?

Yeah, that's a really tough one because I've seen both sides of the road. I've seen a lot of friends who have done an all vegan diet because they're trying to shift their PH to a more alkaline ph. And meats in general have been shown to create more of an acidic environment, internal environment. And so the more alkaline environment research does show that that can be very helpful for cancer. So I have many friends and I support many people if that's what they are feeling called to do in order for their cancer. And I've seen other people say, you know what, I am going to go the other way. And again, I'm going to focus on the best quality meats and I'm actually going to do more, more fat, more healthy fat because that feels better to my body. It feels like it's more stabilizing and they've done well. So it's, it's, there's research on both.

Sides and I, I think aligning is what you say, what we believe for us to be true is also what's going to manifest for us. So if you really believe something's healing you or hurting you, that will show up in your body. I really do believe that too.

Gosh, there's this element of like, are we in integrity with ourselves? And that is one of the most important things. Even far greater influence than our diet, probably.

So how did you. You had this big identity shift. I mean, clearly vegans are carnivore. Like, that's, that's a massive. So how do you, how you're hiding it from your mom unless she hears this, what do you do? Like, you're with friends, you're at holiday, you're at your mom's house, what do you do? You just say, I don't really feel like having vegetables right now. Like, what do you, what do you say? Do you sneak the food? What do you do? Or do you just not care and you just, you own it?

Yeah. At this point, I don't feel good about sneaking Around. Yeah. Right. And so, so no, I definitely don't sneak around. And it just takes more preparation on my part to plan ahead. And so if I'm traveling, because I do travel a lot, speaking at different conferences and getting ready for the book launch. So there's a. Travel a lot. And it's like, okay, how am I going to do this? How am I going to navigate this? Because I don't want to eat the airport food because that's all of the meat that I, I know is not healthy for me. And so I prepare ahead of time, I freeze it, I then take it with me. I then have, you know, ordered ahead of time so that when I arrived at my destination, it's, it's there for me. So there's more planning involved. And for me, I see that as this is the gift that I get to give myself right now.

Yeah. So, Amy, this is fascinating today. I hope those listening. I just. The reason I want to do this, I just wanted to open up a perspective switch. I do not, I do not believe there is one way for everybody. I think we get to, in midlife, especially be our own health advocate, our own health detective. And we've got to learn really to listen to our bodies and to what resonates for us and to worry less about controlling others. I mean, say that because, you know, when I said I was going to do this topic, some people are like, oh, you're going to have people coming after like that. I don't do that for this reason. I do that. I want to educate all different areas because I really want women to learn to advocate for themselves, test things and go, this is right for me. Maybe it's not right for you. So this is coming from a place of caring. I think those of you that are vegan and love being vegan and it's working for you, more power to you. Those of you carnivore, that's working for you. More power to you. I personally eat unprocessed, natural, real food. I combine animal and plants. I do both. I do both. That's what works for me. But, Amy, thank you for sharing this today. I was dying to hear your perspective because you went from one extreme to a whole different one.

Yeah. And I love, I love kind of the final message that you're giving to people where become the, your own health advocate. I tell my people, become the expert in your own body. Because no one else can really know what it feels like to be in your body.

That's right.

You're the one that's able to say, oh, this is what makes me feel well balanced, centered, calm. Then I guess this is what is best for my body. And everyone is different. Everyone has a different biology.

Now you all. Dr. Amy is a powerhouse. She does a lot of summits. She's got a new book coming out. She's an amazing, amazing person to follow. This is not the topic she typically speaks on. I asked as a favor to come on and share this. Dr. Amy, what do you want them to know about you? Like what, what's your, like, real passion? Because I know I'm going to have you back on the podcast when your book is coming out. Tell us a little bit about what you're really up to in the world and where they should follow you.

My passion is teaching people how to safely open up stored trauma and emotions in their body. Many, like me, can look at their life and be like that. I've had trauma. And then we discover that actually the more that we understand the real definition of trauma. We've all had trauma. It's just part of being a human in our world today. And without knowing that, we. We hold it. Our bodies hold it. So that's what my book is on. How the body experiences trauma, why it holds it, and what it needs to heal. And there's so much out there that is done in a not safe way. Too much, too fast, and it overwhelms us and it re. Experiences the trauma all over again. So I teach people how to safely, safely open up those stored emotions and trauma so they can live their. Their most authentic life.

So don't worry, y'.

All.

Part two will be coming. We're gonna, we're gonna schedule that podcast before I even hang up with her today so we can explore that topic. Thank you so much, Dr. Amy, for being here today. Thank you.

Oh, thank you for what you do in the world, Natalie.

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