451:Sitting with Midlife Discomfort for 180 Degrees of Healing Glow Up with Sweaty AF

There is a vulnerability to being in the sauna, and it. There is also an opening of the mind and your energies are releasing. And there's. There's connections happening in a mass sauna.

Before we get started on this episode.

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Welcome to Midlife Conversations. I'm your host, Natalie Jill, and I'm passionate about having amazing conversations that matter to us midlife women. On this podcast, I do what I do best, taking complicated health topics and breaking them down simply so that we can optimize aging together.

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Inspiring people living their best midlife years and dive into essential topics like hormone changes, health optimization, weight management, blood sugar, emotional well being, relationships, beauty, and so much more.

What happens in midlife when you've got setbacks and changes? Maybe it's a divorce, maybe it's you are now a new empty nester. You've got a business change, maybe you've got a death, but things tend to shift in midlife. And when you are in midlife and things start to shift, sometimes we don't have the support system that we had when we were younger. When you're younger, when you're in your teens and your twenties and even your thirties, you've got a lot of friends. And then we get busy with life, things change with our careers, our business, our spouses, raising kids. And things change. And when things tend to fall apart, sometimes it can feel very heavy, like, what are the resources? What do we need to change? What do we need to look for to start feeling better, improving? And as my guest today call it, how do we glow up? Today I'm interviewing a very special duo from London. They are the Sweaty AF is the name of their podcast and their show. I'm talking to Joey and Lucy today and this is a fun episode. If you're watching on video, they're actually in their sauna. They record their episodes, their interviews in their sauna. Therefore they call it Sweaty af, which is super fun. And the reason I wanted to interview them specifically is they actually met. They met in a sauna, going through a divorce, navigating a very hard time in their lives. And through the sauna and their connection, they seem to figure out these pillars, these sort of ways that helped them not only heal, but as they say, glow up. Their life where they are now thriving. They've got a great show, they've got a great community of their own, and they themselves have become very good friends. So I'm really excited to interview them today. Thank you so much for being here today.

Joey and Lucy, thank you for having us.

Thank you.

So I want to start a little bit with your story because it's super unique. What was going on? How did you meet in Asana? What's that? What's happening there?

Okay, so this is. So we. I was coming up well for starting a divorce, still living with my now ex husband and wanted to escape the house. It was post, just post Covid and I found myself in the Longevity Studio, which had a sauna. And.

And I also. Similar story. I was not quite divorced yet, but I was unhappily married, let's say, and looking for a little escape and some space for myself. And also post Covid wasn't feeling my best. I was in my late 30s, I think I was probably had hormone dysregulation. And I was just feeling very tired, not myself. And I wanted to kind of take some ownership of that. And this was my first step in the sauna where I met Lucy, where we met.

We were very different people. You were very different people. We were. It was five years ago. I just had my 40th birthday. I think something hits you when you turn 40 as well, that you feel a midlife shift. And then my shift was getting my ex husband.

So then in the sauna, we would sit and talk about various biohacks, as we kind of like to call them. It's like health optimizers measures. How were we increasing our energy, how were we sleeping better, what our nutrition was, what our exercise regime was, and how that was working for us individually and sharing our almost kind of DIY processes that we were going through.

And very often there would be somebody else sitting in the sauna in between us listening to this backwards and forwards conversation.

What you tried? What did I try? How much are you sleeping? You've lost weight. We both lost a significant amount of weight.

And then we decided that actually the connection that we had made in the sauna and the therapy that talking about this and our situation had given us, we really wanted to share this with other people because we felt it helped us so much, it could help other women, other men in our situation.

So we started a podcast called Sweaty AF because we sit and sweat it out in the sauna. And initially it was just these conversations between us, but then it's grown into us interviewing specialists to give our audience insights into other health optimization modalities, which.

First, I love that you call it health optimization because I've never loved the word biohack and I always, I call it age optimization. So I love that you say health optimization too. There's something just sounds a little bit more powerful to say that we're going to optimize versus we're going to hack.

You know, Absolutely, we completely agree. It. So it, it is, it is what we're doing, but it's a term we also don't love. So we, we.

Yeah, we've had other terms recently like bio harmonizing, which we kind of like those vibes as well. It's about just getting in tune with.

Yourself, so living better for longer.

So you know what's funny is when you, when you think about a sauna, most people obviously are sweaty in there. You're usually vulnerable. Like you're in there naked or you're in there bikini and your towel and whatever. And most people, I think don't really talk in a sauna. They're just there sweating and detoxing and eliminating stuff, which you figured out this other important piece, like I'm going to eliminate my emotions. We're going to talk this through, we're going to get this out. How did, first of all, how did that conversation even start up? Because I think a lot of people don't even talk in a sauna, I think.

Well, one, it was a very small sauna, so it was A three person sauna in a very small private studio. So we all did get to know each other through the other longevity practices that we were doing within the studio. So we would sit in the sauna and discuss the other practices that we were each taking part in. But there is definitely something for Joey and I and we are finding it with other people. There is a vulnerability to being in the sauna and there is also an opening of the mind and your energies are releasing and there's, there's connections happening in a mass sauna. Of course some people are there to really relax and they don't want that kind of community and communication. But in the situation we were, because it was such a small sauna and such a small wellness space, they became.

Friendships and it was a very gentle conversation. Like I would say, we often paired the sauna with doing cold therapy first. And cold therapy means you have to become very present. You have to lean into the breath work. Excuse me. And then I think you go into the sauna to warm up and you've had almost this few minutes meditation and then you step into the sauna and it's this beautiful, warm, almost kind of like womb, like space cavernous that allows you to feel open and you are completely right. You do feel vulnerable because maybe you don't have many clothes on. You may be a little body conscious, but you're sitting there with other people who have taken that step to do that for themselves as well. So I think you kind of know you're all in that, that headspace.

Yeah.

How did you, what did you figure out? Because you all obviously became friends. You started to show. You had this like huge, as you call it, glow up. You lost weight, you changed. When you look back at to the advice you would give somebody, they're, they're in a hard space right now. And they are probably. If you're in a hard space and we've all been there, you're either like completely in your head, like you're almost paralyzed. You can't, you can't think outside of it. You want to stay in bed, you want to stay home, you want to hide, you can't get out of it, or you're in a complete avoidance space. I noticed like kind of those two extremes. Like either I'm going to completely hide, I'm going to not, not deal with the world or I'm going to just stay so busy and work and I'm not. You kind of found this middle spot. Like what advice do you give somebody that is listening right now? That they are feeling that stuck thought and they're almost. They're stuck with, what's my next step? What do I do?

We've been in all three of those spots. We really were. I was in a particularly dark place when we started there. And we can completely empathize with that. I think it's taking the first step.

Exactly. Exactly. That small step.

Just one small step. And then stack them. And we have. When we say glow up, we're not just meaning physically. Our lives have entirely changed. We're both. We have very good relationships with our ex husbands. So there's no animosity there. Our children are all very happy and thriving. Our businesses are thriving. We've got the podcast. It's an overall glow up of life. We changed our careers fully.

But it did come down to that first one step. And for us, it was like, it was very literal. It was that step into the sauna. So maybe if I'm carving out time for myself three, four times a week to go and take a sauna, I feel better, I sleep better, so then perhaps I eat better, so then perhaps I want to move more. So then it's like this beautiful snowball effect because you took that first step and it doesn't matter how small it is, but you just have to take it and only you can take it.

Yeah, I love. I love that. Why sauna for the. I know, it's funny. When I, before we started the recording, I said, I was asking them questions and I said, okay, take me through, like, the process of, of how did you meet and how did you start to heal? And they kept reiterating that they give so much credit to the sauna. And I said, well, I don't want this to be an ad for sauna. But they kept saying, yes, but the sauna was so instrumental and full transparency. They don't sell asana. They're not selling a sauna right now. But they really do credit the idea of a sauna for helping them heal. Can you kind of break down? Why? Is it just the heat? Is it the space? Is the company like, what is it about sauna? And do you do. Is it infrared? Does it matter? Like, what. Tell us what, what you figured out there.

Okay, well, I, I think the sauna, the process of sauna is like, historically, culturally, is very much taking time for yourself, coming together in community, cleaning yourself, detoxing. And I think there's a very like, physical and also metaphorical detox that goes on in the sauna. I think we were detoxing Emotionally, spiritually, mentally. And I think it's just that space you get a little bit of community. We got some purpose from, from talking together, from working together. And I think it's also looking about what you need to eliminate from your life. So it's obviously a sauna can help you. And infrared sauna, for example, is quite good at doing heavy metal detox and things like that. But also maybe it's detoxing what you're watching on the news, who you're speaking to, toxic relationships. So I think with sauna, it just puts you in the headspace of what do I need to bring into my life and what do I need to release? Because that's what sauna does. It brings good things in and it gets bad things out.

Ultimately, it also creates a resilience in you to deal with the rest of your life because you are dealing with intense heat. So the body, physical, physiologically is dealing with something that in particular with us, we do the cold therapy as well. So the resilience comes into that, which I do think goes out into the rest of your life.

Explain what you mean by cold therapy, because not everybody knows. I mean, I'm thinking you're talking about cold plunge or cryotherapy or cold shower. Like, what do you think about and how important is that contrast of cold and hot? And if somebody doesn't have a cold plunge or cryo, what do. How do you suggest they take that on?

So we started with cryotherapy, for we were probably doing cryotherapy for three, four years, and we now have an ice bath, which we both love. And actually we'd struggle to go back to cryotherapy. It's not something that we do every single time that we sauna. It depends on if we've done some weight training. We wouldn't want to finish with cold because your gains wouldn't be where you need them to be. But we, it's part of our protocol and everybody's protocol is different, but we, we, we do different. We do rounds of hot, cold, hot, and we always end on a cold.

Okay.

And it also varies during your cycle, during like periods of maybe stress. Because as Lucy said, the heat is a stressor, the cold is a stressor. And although they're both like these short term acute stresses which help us build resilience over time, we don't want to overload that stress bucket. So people often ask us, what is the sauna protocol? What is the contrast therapy protocol? And we always come back to the point that your Protocol is for you, it's very individual and you really have to lean into your body's intuition. And part of the process of using sauna and cold therapy is understanding your body a little bit better.

Well, and also step by step, slowly lean into each practice and build up.

So what would you like somebody listening and they're saying, okay, I'm hearing you, but what do I, how do I even start to even get? Like, what would you tell somebody? Like, how did you do it the first time?

Start slow. So start coming into the sauna. Depending on what sauna you're using, obviously if you're using an infrared, it will be a lower temperature, so you perhaps have more capacity to stay in a little bit longer. But as soon as you start feeling, feeling uncomfortable, you get out. Same with the cold therapy. You may, you may dip into the shower or the cold bath for 30 seconds to begin with. And that's okay. You have to just lean in and how the body feels and just build it up over time because as we said, it is, it is a resilience physically.

Yeah. Big stressor on the body. And also not just 30 seconds when you first start. Because there are some days like today, Joey could do two minutes, I could do 30 seconds. You've just got to listen to your body and how it responds to both of the stressors.

And then when you. So, so you like to start with hot. So you get so hot first and then just when you start getting uncomfortable getting out and going into the cold. So, but, so I'm. So it could be, it could be cryo, but you like cold bath or ice bath now cold plunge and then, or if someone listening doesn't have that, it could be a cold shower. I'm assuming like we often do a cold shower.

Yeah, we'll often do that.

And then, and so you do whatever your body's thinking. It could be 30 seconds, it could be a few minutes, and then you go back typically to the hot. Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And typically we will always end on a cold because it's great to end on cold because the body keeps, then can bring itself up to temperature naturally. It's very good for the metabolism, very good for various things, inflammation. But if we've done a very big strength training session, we won't do too much cold therapy.

And what's the reason you're saying that's detrimental for the strength or what is that doing?

It just, it's encouraging your body to repair quicker and we want that to slow down that process a little bit more. So that the muscles get some growth in them.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. And then for sauna, you mentioned infrared versus traditional sauna. What's your preference and why?

Oh, this is a question we always get asked. So we did meet in an infrared, which we love, but each has their own benefits. They're very different, and we use both because that's our ideal world. And we're. And we're.

We're really sitting on the fence here.

Yeah, no, because we genuinely do love both. I mean, they do have such different benefits. If you were able to have both. I would have both.

For example, the infrared for the skin is so nice. The skin feels so good after being in infrared.

The toxins as well.

Yeah.

If they have the metals, if you want to.

Pain, I would imagine pain and inflammation.

Yeah.

But then the traditional sauna, you know, particularly if you're doing a guided sauna, perhaps you're having the afghus, you've got some essential oils. It's very sensory. It's very. It's very beautiful.

I would also say for longevity, the traditional. Because the cardiovascular benefits are far greater in a traditional.

Why is that? Because you're getting a higher body temperature or what's the reason?

Yeah, so your. Your heart is just. The vascular pump is just working more.

So it's like doing a cardio sess.

Yeah, basically. Yeah. It mimics exercise. And obviously the hotter the temperature, the more intense that is. So.

And how long do you like to do either?

Or we could last in there quite a while. Probably more than most. We would typically, as a starting session, we would say try 10 minutes in the sauna. Maybe a minute plunge. 10 minutes. Minute plunge. We like to do longer.

And an inferior body, definitely.

Oh, and an infrared stand there for maybe 45 minutes and. Yeah, yeah. Do you.

And do you do both on the same day ever?

Yeah, we have. Yes.

But also to note that the reason we did cryotherapy is you can't go.

In and out of the cryo when you're sweating. So you can.

Right, that makes sense. It'll freeze. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Okay, now, how.

How did.

Do you feel this helped with your healing of your midlife trauma? Because you had a lot going on. I mean, you're divorced, you're changing, you have kids, you have a lot changing and going on. And you said you kind of felt all those stages. So obviously there's a lot of health benefits to hot and cold and opt. You know, the biohacking stuff. But how do you personally, if you were to look Back and go. This helped me heal and shift mentally. What do you think was happening there and why?

We have a release of endorphins, which is, you know, helping our mood and also your cortisol. So when I was going through the toughest time, I think I was maybe sleeping two or three hours a night. And your body is then struggling with everything else. The next day I was, immediately after using the sauna, I started sleeping better. My cortisol levels were reduced significantly. And we, you know, we do test ourselves as well. So the, the hacks that we are doing, they are biologically working and you know, which we, we, we've taken metabolic. Wait.

This is really important and something I would have never thought of before. So I, I, I want, I want to, I want to revisit that for a second here. When people are depressed or stressed, which is what a divorce would do, which is what a loss of a job would do, which would what becoming an empty nester. And then you couple on hormone changes, which you girls are a little younger, but you add that into the mix and it's in a whole, it's a whole nother level. Right. So now we've got sleep deprivation and cortisol dysregulation and both of those things are not helping us with stress. Right. So we're, it's hard to heal when your body's in a state of stress. So what you all just said, I don't, it's, I want to just really highlight this here because when we feel stressed and we're not sleeping and we're having cortisol spikes, the natural go to is something like a pill. Like people think, well, I must take melatonin or I must take a sleeping pill or I must take whatever. But that's not actually healing, it's a band aid. So what if I heard you correct, what you're saying is we're using some of these measures like sauna and the hot cold therapy, which aside from all these other health benefits, it's helping my cortisol regulation and my stress. And now I'm sleeping so my body is able to heal and process quicker. Did I say that right? Is that basically okay?

Yeah.

This is huge. Because I think a lot of people have not tied that together.

Yeah, no, I mean hot cold therapy itself is amazing for circadian rhythm regulation as well. And we found that over the years that our sleep, both of us has hugely improved.

Yeah.

And we obviously, we track everything as well. It was almost an immediate response with the, with the stress on the Body of the hot and the cold, that my sleep got better.

And I think, yeah, likewise. And also I think that was coupled with the mindset shift of I am prioritizing myself. And I think that that is something that really comes out in these periods of trauma, is that you, as particularly as a mother, you always prioritizing other people. But I think the mindset was, I have to look after myself so that I can be a good mom, I can be a good friend, I can be a good daughter, I can be a good ex wife. Yeah, but. And I think that was a big shift for me, was like, actually, I'm worthy of giving myself all of this time and attention and priority.

So I want to add just another layer. And maybe I'm completely wrong here, but I think also when people are stressed because let's say someone's listening and they're like, okay, I. I kind of hear you, so I'm gonna go jump in a sauna. And they go to the one at their gym, and now they bring their cell phone in. Like, so they're in this sauna with their cell phone, still dealing with cortisol and stress. But what you did different is you didn't have that. Instead, you're connecting with each other and you're talking. So it's almost like, can you. Can you speak into that a little bit? Because I think that makes a difference too.

It was like a therapy session.

It was. And I. And. But first of all, I will say we did sit there and not speak for some time, and then there was a little opening up, and then the vulnerability.

Comes out. And it's just. We struggle to describe this because we get asked this quite a lot. It is something that happens in your mind.

There's a release of the stresses of life when you're in this pod, I.

Think, because potentially it probably feels like a safe space. Like you said, when you leave your cell phone outside, you leave your wearers outside the door. It's very primal space. It's very warm. It's like a cave. Your body relaxes you. The sauna does. The heat does physically relax you. So your shoulders drop, your breathing goes down, your central nervous system starts to regulate. And then I think that's the moment when you go, oh, yeah, wow, I can breathe again. And this is happening.

That's. I feel like. And that's, I think, the way somebody would describe maybe like, hot yoga or even, like an intense workout. But I think it makes it a little easier. Like, that's not. You're just going In a box. Like, you're literally just walking in there so you don't have to think through anything.

Yeah, exactly. There's no thought process, really. It's a very mindful practice on a.

And I think that's probably something that we've tried to lean into a little bit, so incorporate a little bit of breath work. In sauna mindfulness, we don't always sit there and chat to each other the whole time. We will be quite intentional about sauna practice.

A lot of mind work in there and a lot of. Yeah. Leaning into.

So if you had a friend right now that. Or somebody listening, they're like, they're going through stuff in their life. Would this literally be the first thing you would say? Like, get yourself in a sauna? Would you. Are you that much of a. Like, this is the answer for people. Do you. Would you say that? Would you say, get in asana?

I would.

I absolutely would. But there are a number of other things that people need to do.

What. What are those? Some of those things.

I mean, I think walking is phenomenal. We walk. We incorporate, like, best part, 20,000 steps a day into our job.

That's amazing. 20,000?

Yeah, we're averaging that Monday to Friday. Yeah.

Because along with that, you're outside, so you're getting morning sunlight in your eyes. You're getting movement, you're getting nature.

Okay, now hold on a second.

You just said 20,000 steps a day outside.

I just want to reiterate. I'm recording them right now in winter time. They live in London, so it's not exactly hot and sunny there.

We lean into the cold. We lean.

Okay, talk about that, because people here. Because I live in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I lived in San Diego before, and I don't know if you're familiar with those areas, but they're like, sunny year round and warm. So. So people say to me, well, oh, you have it warm there. But I share what you do, because it is not sunny there and it is cold.

No, it's cold and it rains a lot. But it's a commitment because we know and we have some of our best ideas when we walk. When you're outside, you're in. In the daylight. It doesn't have to be sunlight. We know that that light will help us sleep at night because we've regulated our circadian rhythm.

You're still getting the full spectrum of light, even in. Even in winter in the uk. Well, yeah, you'll get it most.

No, this is important. I want people to hear this because I think That's a crutch that people say, well I don't live in a nice area. But you live in the UK and it is.

And it's wet a lot of the time.

Wet and it's cold and it's foggy. There's a reason they say London fog.

So.

Yeah.

So.

But you're still getting the benefits.

We are, we're not precious with how we look. We'll often have soaking hair. Yeah. We're often got sauna hair, soaking hair. We, we both love being outside. We both love walking. We, you know, really precious about the sun.

But I think it's the same with everything because it's really easy to make an excuse.

Yes.

And I think that's one of our. That's why we say just take the one step.

And I think, well, we'll tell you some of the oftentimes we'll have. Well, you're very lucky because you can incorporate it into your jobs. We are really fortunate. But we each wake up at 5am in the morning to make sure that we can fit, fit everything in that we, we want to. We're both single mums to two kids each. So there's a, you know, we're just busy. We fit it in and, and never to preach because everybody's life's different. Everybody has a different struggles in life. But if you can, and I would never say 20, 000 steps, we are, you know, very committed to that.

Yes.

Any level of walking. Walk to the sauna.

Yeah, that's what we do.

Okay.

So we will walk.

You would tell them people, hot, cold therapy, primarily sauna. And what else would you tell them? Like so they. Now they're in this struggle and they need to just do. What else did you, what else do you do?

The sun. It is very important to get natural daylight in your eyes as soon as you wake.

Even if it's cloudy.

Yeah. But outdoors. Outdoors.

Yeah.

If you're seeing light through a car window or a house window, it's seriously diluted. So getting outside I think is the big one. Outside moving and sleep is so incredibly important.

So it's setting up your day, which that does to work for you to go to bed and have a restful night's sleep. So we have sleep practices that we put into place. So there's no, I mean we're a little different tonight, but normally we'll have our blue light blockers on and screens will be off before. Before bed. Dim lights.

Speaking of which, how. You know, in the US at least coastal areas, depending on where people are listening to this. I think coastal area. And I don't know if you've been to the US before, but like. So coastal areas. If you think of like east coast and then west Coast, a lot of people really into the biohacking longevity. Is that like that in the uk Is this. Are you. You like an uncommon pair that are into this or is this common?

Yeah.

Coming. We're coming in 10 days to. To the biohacking world, so we can fully let you know. But I think your practices.

Align.

Okay.

But I think it's newer here.

It's.

It's not as a developed scene here. And I think like you were people probably here use the excuse a little bit more of the weather isn't so good so we can't get out in the morning.

They use that there more. You're saying they use that there.

Okay.

But the east coast probably use it as well.

Yeah, it depends on the area. I mean in California. No one like east. The coast of California. Yeah, but, but people. And I'm bringing this up because people say this to me all the time. Well, I live in a snow area or I live. I'm not listeners in Canada. They. So, so I. It sounds to me though like you don't. If there was snow, you'd be outside. Like you're just committed.

We've just been to Finland and it was minus 20 and we were outside all day.

Wow.

I swam in the Arctic, so, you.

Know, you're next level.

Okay.

Talk to me about community and connection because I think. I don't know if you realize this or not, but this was huge too. And I think a lot of women in midlife, they just don't have those real friendships anymore. And you two formed that. How important do you think that was in your healing? And what advice do you have to somebody listening that maybe doesn't have that right now?

It's immense. I mean she's now one of my best friends. I absolutely love her. Our kids love each other. It's. We. It. We are so grateful and thankful every single day for that. That meeting. And it's just making the first. The first step and I think. And being open for being open and vulnerable, which we have been very vulnerable with one another and. And that's how the conversation started. We were in not great times and probably feeling a little sad and noticing one another was looking sad.

But I think you realize once you start speaking to people.

That everybody's going through something. And I think then you can kind of use that to Bond over that common. It doesn't have to be the same issue. It doesn't have to both be a divorce. It may be you've lost a parent or the child has left home or your husband's sick, or it can be anything. But I think by the time you get into your 30s, 40s and beyond, things are happening, things have happened to you. And I think once you realize that, that it's happening to everybody, you can feel free to be a little bit more vulnerable.

We'll come at everything with kindness and vulnerability and I think you'll probably meet some of the best people of your life, which is very exciting.

Yeah, I love that because I do think egos really pop up and women expect. Women think others are judging them so they want to look like they have it all together. Right. So people want to have the answers or be the know it all or. And when you are truly sharing from a place of human compassion and what you're actually navigating, I think that's when people really connect. And, and I'll see this a lot, just even on social media, for example. So let's just take. You're scrolling Instagram and somebody appears to have this perfect life and perfect body and perfect everything. A lot of people, they don't like them instantly. They're like, I don't like this person. You'll see hate in the comments and the person might not have done anything wrong other than they just appear perfect. Right. So. But when somebody shares a real story of something they're navigating or something that's hurting them or pain, people see them more human and connect with them. So what advice do you have for somebody that, that they're listening to and they're like, well, I wish I had a friend like that, or how do I even start that conversation? Or do you have any advice to give somebody that maybe doesn't feel they have those connections right now?

I think it's be brave to be vulnerable and know that everybody, every single person, even the perfect people, that perfect life have something. And if you are the one that is brave enough to say I'm actually having a bit of a tough time right now, then that will just. You are gifting other people the opportunity to be vulnerable. So look at it as you giving other people a gift.

Did you worry about sounding like you are a burden or. And do you have a way of how do you talk where it doesn't feel like you're, you know, we all know those people that you want to avoid because it's like their whole life's a problem. Right. So how do you. What's the line there?

I mean, because there's an awful lot of positivity in our life. We've both got amazing children that we're so proud of and, and we lead even in the darkest times. We are very fortunate. We're, you know, optimistic. We're both very glass half full, so that, that helps. But, you know, we have great lives. We've got great children. We just were going through a tough point within our lives. But, you know, divorce is incredibly hard. Splitting up a family is incredibly hard. But no, we, we had an awful lot of fun in there, actually, so. And we were both quite sarcastic and. Yeah, the conversations that we have had in the sauna will never be released because they shouldn't be.

But it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom and it also doesn't have to be all like, fake positivity. No, it's just real life.

Real. Just be real.

And some of it is amazing and funny and ridiculous and some of it is horrible, but you just lean into the realness of it.

Go ahead.

I also think when you get to our, our past 40.

Yeah. There is a, you know, no BS.

Like you just, you just don't care about all the kind of, oh, wait.

Till after 50, you really don't care. And you're on your NFG card.

Well, there you go. Exactly. So there's, there's that, there's that. That comes out. So I wish I felt like that Maybe in my 30s. I probably didn't. I. I struggled.

So would you, like. I'm gonna, I'll, I'll go to another level and say, just talk to people like, you don't. You don't know. Not everybody's gonna be open, warm arm, wanting to chat back. But, but just talking and smiling and asking. I, you know, when I moved to Arizona from San Diego and I didn't know anybody here, and I went into a Facebook group and I just said, hey, I. I'm 53 years old. You know, I just said my age and what I'm interested in and would love to find girls that want to hike. And you, you kind of gotta, like, you just gotta put yourself out there. And it might sound scary, but it's kind. You just gotta, you gotta do a little trial and you find your, your tribe and you also did something. I wanna talk about headspace for a minute here. Cause you've mentioned headspace a few times, like getting in the right headspace and it sounds like you do that from sleeping well and detoxing and connecting. But also, you know, your podcast is a form of therapy in a way. I think mine is. And gosh, I'm like, it's like my therapy session on my podcast all the time. Can you speak a little bit more into headspace and would you. What did. Cause you've mentioned that word a few times.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's. I think for us the podcast was really a purpose. And I think, you know, it's perhaps hard sometimes to know what your purpose is, particularly maybe if children have left home and all of that kind of thing. And I think having purpose gave us positivity.

Gave us optimism, and I think then that. And gratitude. And we were so grateful that we'd found each other. And I think those kind of emotions, that they're so high vibrational and they just perpetuate more high vibrational things and you stop, you lose the fear. So the fear starts to go and all this amazing, like, energy comes in. And I think that's what the podcast has done for us. It's shown us that anything is possible. We, we sometimes say to each other, well, they've done it. What. What is stopping us doing it? And it's so true. Anybody can do anything if you try.

And I think you, then you, you connect to more and more people. I mean, the energy level that we're in right now, we, we go to quite a few events and we've got some amazing friends within the industry now that we, you know, we've really connected to. And your energy draws other people in. So I love that.

I think, I love that. And I. Tell us just a. Kind of a few of your thoughts on longevity, because I think people view longevity stuff or biohacking or age harmonizing or optimizing all the words we threw out there, sometimes they're either like all in or they feel like it's kind of out there. Or like, what are your, what is your. Just general feedback around that. And what do you think is actually important versus, like, what's super gimmicky?

Well, I think there's a very funny meme going around on Instagram at the moment. On one side it's Brian Johnson wired up to loads of things, and on the other side it's an Italian man who's been smoking and drinking all his life, having the time of his life. And it's like he's. His age is predicted to be way longer. Ryan Johnson. So I think in that particular image is the key Point. And that is balance.

You got to send me that image that's like that. I gotta see that.

But we talk about. We are actually talking about this more and more because when you first start by hacking, you start with incremental changes, adding on, adding on. And then you get to a point, you think, am I putting more stress on my.

Yes, thank you. Yes.

Because I'm, I'm. I'm tracking everything with trackers. And also all this. Am I putting too much pressure on myself? And therefore I'm causing more oxidative stress and I'm actually putting myself under unnecessary pressure. So I'm probably aging more than I would be. I agree.

Not to mention all the EMF from all of our trackers and all this like. Like all these things, you know, Next.

Thing you know, I'm sleeping with all these water wires.

I'm like, what's happening?

Yeah, exactly. But, you know, cuts. All the things that are natural are where we kind of start with. So the, you know, sleep is so important. And grounding, sunlight, movement.

Good nutrition.

Good nutrition. Yeah. Exercise. Start with this. Add on some. We do think there's quite a lot of extreme by a hacking going. Totally not for us.

It becomes like an eating disorder, quite honestly. Like, I think it's like another form of a. Like we can't control everything. So I think this. Some of the stuff is fun and it's amazing, and why not? But it's like if you try to control everything, you know, I have. I'm not gonna say names here, but I. I have some friends and some people I know that they are pretty extreme with stuff. And then what happens is when they have something wrong or they're sick, it's like they're. They're not sharing that part, you know, so then it becomes a different form of a disorder, I think, because it's like now they feel like this is their new identity and they have to look like they have it all together. And it's just, it's. I don't. I think this just gives a fair. It gives an unfair view of what biohacking stuff can do. And I think it can become very disordered very quickly.

Yeah, I totally agree, 100%.

Just how biohacking became a word in the dictionary. We think they'll probably become a word in the dictionary that is biohacking gone too far?

Yeah, I think that.

And.

But I think you guys both actually, I agree with you. If I were to just have literally one kind of. And I call it my one age optimizing Tool. Like, I can only have one thing. It would be my sauna. Mine is infrared. And I would, I would stick with my infrared for me. But I night and day, how I feel like it's just. And I, I do mine at night, right currently, right now before I go to bed. And it changes my sleep, it changes my stress, it changes my mood, it changes my skin. Like, it is my. It's my favorite little sanctuary. In fact, I was in there last night and my husband came out to ask me questions and I was like, get out. You're in my space. Go like, this is my like box. This is my one little. My area. I walk in there and I let things go. So I agree with you on that. Tell us a little bit about your podcast because I know my listeners are going to want to find you. You have a podcast called Sweaty af. I love the name. Tell us a little bit about it.

So we record it in the sauna every week. We have specialist guests on talking to us. Everything all around health optim. So it can be anything from cold therapy to red light therapy to nutrition to strength training, specifically for women or specifically for menopause. We dive into loads of different topics because our audience is very kind of getting into health optimization. They're just starting off so they're quite short conversations just to introduce different topics so then they can go off and do their own research and figure out what works for them.

We call it creating a toolbox box. So we're providing all the specialists and then our listeners can pick and choose which of which. Which of those they. Which of those that they.

Works for them. I mean, do you.

You always record it in the sauna?

That's cool. Do you.

Is the sauna on or off when you're in it? When you're recording.

There'S not actually sweaty AF in there, but they're sweaty at AF at some point and then they record it in there.

I love it.

It.

So good.

And we'll link up where you can sh. Find their podcast as well too. Thank you, girls.

Thank you so much.

Enjoyed that.

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