463: Breaking Free from Grief: A Doctor's Journey from Devastating Loss to Helping Others Heal with Dr. Cristi Bundukamara

And I learned that grief is a pain. That is your badge of honor. You are. You are allowed to feel the pain of grief, but what often happens is it gets enmeshed with negative things like negative self talk or trauma or these kinds of things. And trauma is cumulative.

Welcome to Midlife Conversations. I'm your host, Natalie Jill, and I'm passionate about having amazing conversations that matter to us midlife women. On this podcast, I do what I do best, taking complicated health topics and breaking them down simply so that we can optimize aging together. I share actionable steps to help you thrive in what I believe are our best years to come. Join me as I interview the most inspiring people living their best midlife years and dive into essential topics like hormone changes, health optimization, weight management, blood sugar, emotional well being, relationships, beauty, and so much more. So one of the things that I really see happening in midlife with women is we have this lifetime of experiences and stories and things that have happened to us, and it starts to hold us back from getting into a next level of anything that we want to achieve, whether it's our health, our bodies, our business, our relationships. We come with literal baggage, right? Like these, all these lifelong stories of things that happen. And sometimes they're very significant things. Sometimes I think people create significance out of things. But for the real, we're all human and we have a lot of things that have happened. This topic today, I want to talk about how this ends up defining us and what we can actually do about it. Like trauma. Specifically, like when we have trauma happen to us, real things, and we start making it our story. How that shows up in our body, how that shows up in our health, our life, and how do we get out of that? Because trauma is real. Trauma is very real. My guest today, I happened to meet.

This is.

I've got Dr. B with us today, and I. She's my new friend. She told me when she heard me speak that we're going to be new best friends. And we didn't know it yet, but I just met her at an event I was at recently. I was speaking and she really got my heart because when I heard, first of all, how knowledgeable she is and her speaking into this, and then I learned that she went through the most unimaginable pain. And just to. To give you a brief recap of this, not to minimize any of it, but she's lost three children. Three. And her husband over a span of 20 years. I mean, just for a moment, I just want you to imagine what that devastation and Trauma would feel like and how horrible and horrifying and how that could really redefine you in ways that people don't even choose to really think about. It's just so, so devastating. But not only has she done the work to process and grieve and to walk through this, she is truly thriving and now helping so many others do the same. So thank you, Dr. B, for being here today.

Thank you so much. We were just kind of talking about how that should resonate with every woman in this season of our life, right.

When we're in the season of raising our children. This is what happened with. I lost my first son in a drowning accident, and I didn't stop and grieve at all. I didn't. I had six other children, and I just poured myself into my children. And I think that's what we do as women.

You know, if you are a mother, like, that seems to, like, take precedence, and we just put everything into that, and we spend 20 years of that being our priority, and we never really stop and take care of ourselves. And so that's what I did after the first loss, just poured into my children after the second loss of losing my son Reggie. 10 years of medical trauma.

My children were pretty much grown. Like, I had a couple still living at home, but they were grown. So it was a different time of being able to stop and take care of myself. And we don't do that as women. We were never taught to do that.

We were taught to, you know, one fight in a man's world to be successful and still show up feminine and nurturing and all of these things. So we, those of us who are in midlife right now, grew up with this, you know, dialectic that we are supposed to be doing both. And I was that woman. I am that woman. But. But I'm also learning how to take care of myself. And I am, even though I've lost three children and I've been through this horrible, both trauma and grief. We've all been through something, all of us. I haven't had a chance to really dive deep into your story, but I know that each one of us has a story that hurts. That is pain. And I talk about pain and purpose in my book of, like, how do you turn that pain into purpose? Mine happens to be living every woman's worst nightmare. But it. I want you to look at it as, like, if she can do it, I can do it. Not as, oh, poor her, because I am healing. It's a lifetime journey, but I'm definitely on It, Yeah.

Before I'm going to ask you a lot of questions about how. Because I know women are listening. Men maybe, too, and going, but, but how, but how do you. How do you get past that? How, but how?

Who were you before all this was happening? And what changed for you? Like, what was the pivotal moment? And then help us understand the process, because not everyone's a doctor. Not everyone had the contacts maybe that you have. Help. Help us with where to start.

Yeah, so I am a psychiatric nurse practitioner for over 25 years. Started off as a medic in the army, went to nursing school. So always been in the medical field, always been a caretaker. I had two biological children and then ended up adopting five children. And that's a whole story by itself. One of them was a student at my husband's school. He was a teacher and football coach at the local high school. One of them was a kid in our church who needed to be adopted. And then we thought, oh, we can do this. And we went to adopt one more. And we walked into the room and they said, oh, by the way, those are his sisters and they have no place to go. And so we went from thinking we were going to adopt one more to adopting a three child sibling group. And we know that God, the universe, whatever you believe, orchestrated that because Johnny, who is the boy that we were going to go adopt.

Actually died within a year of us adopting him. Right. And here. But his two sisters, who we never thought we were going to adopt are, you know, are now a part of our family. So I have always been like this highly driven, you know, want to be successful, but in a very caretaking way. Like, I want to take care of people. And, you know, my choices have always been in line with that. It began to, like, really hit me when my son Reggie started having catastrophic epilepsy and he had 10 years of medical trauma. And I was just kind of fighting that. So I think from the time of the Johnny's death to the time of Reggie's death was really survival mode. And I think a lot of moms, especially special needs moms, or if you are trying to work and raise kids and we're in this survival mode of just. And it's burning us. Our cortisol levels are probably off the chart. Our hormone, it disrupts our hormone levels. It makes it hard to lose weight, it makes it hard to eat healthy. Like, there's all of these components that that chronic stress takes. And so if wherever you are in this season, whether you are, you know, almost done raising your kids, Done raising your kids, or maybe you started later and you, you have younger kids. We have to learn how to step back and take care of ourselves. You know, I always use that analogy. You know, in the airplane, they say, put on your oxygen mask first before you put on your child. But that's not our.

Like, that's not, that's not. We have to teach ourselves to do that because we innately are just going to fight for our children. And, you know, our children are a priority. But if you are not taking care of yourself, your children will do what you're doing. They won't do what you say. Right. And so we want to show up and love ourselves because we want our children to love themselves. But if you don't love yourself, your children are not gonna have that role model of how do you love yourself? Right. And so that's my first, you know, cry out to women of really learning how to take care of yourself.

So your first son, when you lost him.

You had not really experienced that kind of devastation and trauma at the time. And I would imagine, like many people dealing with trauma, you did feel stuck. Like, I don't want to open my eyes kind of stuck. Like I would imagine. And like you said, you had to because you had other kids, you had other things to do.

What was the difference on how you handled things then with more recent trauma after what you've learned and walked through?

Yeah, so I, I did it all wrong with Johnny's death. Like, I just pushed through like I think most women are doing. And it wasn't until Reggie's death that, you know, was A little over 10 years later, that I even allowed myself the time to grieve. And I learned that grief is a pain. That is your badge of honor. You are allowed to feel the pain of grief. But what often happens is it gets enmeshed with negative things like negative self talk or trauma or these kinds of things. And trauma is cumulative. So if you had childhood trauma, which we've all had at least injury in our childhood, but these things, if you don't, if you don't work through them, they're cumulative, right? So if, you know, you think you're fat, and this is one of the things that, you know, when I was young, I thought I was fat, and I look back and I was not fat.

Like, I feel like every woman does.

This.

And then we, you know, like there's this joke that's going around, well, gosh, I wish I was as fat as I was when I first thought I was fat. Right?

I mean, I just, I think, I think we. I think every female I know does this and they wishes. They're like, if I just look like that, I'd walk around in a bikini all day if I knew what I looked like, right?

And then. But that cumulative thought process, like, if we can't undo that and begin to believe in yourself and love yourself, then it's going to continue to show up. So when you're stressed, you are going to put on weight. Like, that's going to be the, you know, physical manifestation. I've gone up and down in my weight my entire life.

But. But back to the how. So I did it wrong. Like, I just do like most mothers, and I just focused on survival and caring for, for my kids. What I know now is if I could have taken a step back and taken care of myself. And I think this is a key. Like, we know that, and I know that you're on the fitness end of things. And we know that fitness is important and we should be doing it. But when we're depressed or when things are not going well or we're stressed, we just don't want to.

Exactly.

You know, and, you know, how do we take care of ourselves from a physical standpoint? And this is something that I did through the documentary. And the documentary was, was filmed after losing my third child, which was the most traumatic. I realized coming up to my 50th birthday that I didn't even know what I liked. We talk about self care, self care, self care, self care. And. But if you're not doing something that actually fills your cup, then it's just another responsibility, right? And so I started to try to find movement that I actually enjoyed. And I can tell you, I started taking a gymnastics class at 50, right?

Because it's fun, it's not so rigid, but I'm getting that movement and that exercise. So I think it's important that when we talk about health and fitness, finding something that actually makes you feel better. Like, you know, we went through this thing where, oh, everyone should be doing hiit training. And, you know, it was like. And then I would feel guilty because I didn't like hit training. And then I would make myself do it because it's, you know, what you're supposed to be doing. And I kind of got at a point where, you know, it's okay for me to say, I don't like that type of exercise. Let me find. But, but do find something that works for you. Because when we have that all or nothing thinking, we go, oh, I don't, I don't like exercise altogether. And then we stop doing anything.

How do we, how do we go from not wanting to get out of bed, that kind of feeling. Because there's women that feel this way.

Yeah.

To not being able to cope with like whatever's happening, whether it's, I mean, it might be, as, it might be a loss, it might be a diagnosis, it might be a loss of a business. Like there's so many different, different things. But, but grief in general, because I think it's, it's grief. How do you go from not wanting to even get on with your day to getting. Let's start there. Like, what, what do you, what would advice do you have?

Let's look at everything as a continuum. You know, we often, when we, when we know that we should be doing more, we, we're thinking, let's say we're maybe exercising once a month. We know we should be doing it every day. Mornings are really hard. We're barely doing our responsibilities. The things that we have to do. I would call that like a, you know, a one or two. And our mind goes to a ten. Well, if I was exercising every day and I was doing this, and then all that does is makes you beat yourself up for where you are. So taking like, what baby step can I do today?

And we also need to be very aware of when we need external help. Like if you are seriously depressed, it is okay to get professional help. This is one of the things that I feel like I'm a bridge to the self development world and the psychiatry world. Because, you know, in the psychiatry world everything is medicine and you know, and then in the self development world, it's almost like anti medicine. You're not, you're not good if you can't do it without. Right. And those are polar opposites. And I'm this balance type person and I'm like, you may need to get some professional help to get you out of the slump. Right. If you truly are trying your hardest and you just can't, that is the indication of maybe you need some professional help in that area. But again, like a baby step.

You had said, I think you had said, if I remember correctly, that there's these stages of grieving that people have talked about for years and you didn't agree with them. Can we talk about that and how you redefine them?

So I don't even know how this happened, but this researcher was studying people who were in hospice and they did this study of what stages they go through before Actually succumbing to death, right? Somehow this has been stretched to the people who were left behind, like grieving. And then now they say it's the five stages of grief. Even if you've lost a business or lost a relationship, and everyone talks about these five stages.

What are those five stages that they talk about?

The ends in acceptance. But it's like anger, denial, depression, bargaining, and ending in acceptance. And that's just not true. It's not a stage. Grief is part of your story. But if it has negatively imprinted you, that's trauma. Like, if I were to say.

You know, I'm going to be depressed for the rest of my life because I've lost three children, nobody would argue with me, right? Because they, they don't want, you know, like. But the reality is, is I'm not depressed. And I'm. Have I been depressed? Yes. Have I had to work through that? Yes. But this, this idea that one, you're gonna. It's gonna be over when it's big, right? But also this idea that it's forever in your story and it's really negative and you can't spin it to the positive, you can't reframe it to how you got stronger and how it has a purpose, then you're holding onto trauma. And we have to learn how to separate the grief from the trauma. The negative dialogue that we all have in our. That is a result of some sort of trauma. And, you know, trauma is kind of overused and underused at the same time, right? Every. Everything is trauma. But then we're not actually identifying what we need to release. I can remember the first time somebody called me fat or stupid or. And those are still negative thoughts that creep in sometimes, right? Those are little micro traumas that. So a trauma or an injury is anything that reshaped your perception to a negative. So thinking you're not good enough, thinking that you're not pretty, not liking yourself, those things started somewhere and they are cumulative. And so the I'm not smart thing came up when I lost my son, right. My second son, Reggie, because it was 10 years of medical trauma. I'm a nurse practitioner. I traveled around the world, used every ounce of resource that I had to try to heal him. And I wasn't smart enough. Like, I wasn't able to figure it out. And so I had to work through that, right? This is a cumulative trauma.

I feel like a lot of parents with kids that are. Or spouses, they, they. They do that same thing. Like, why can't I figure this out.

Right. And then. But being able to identify. So I teach something called the mentally strong method. I've been using it all myself since Reggie was young. And it's this ability to separate those things. What is my grief? And, and grief is part of your story, whether it's a divorce or, you know, loss of even grief. I mean, I think almost every mother, even though we're proud of our children, have some grief. Like, you know, especially like special needs parents or there's lots of parents that maybe have a child that got into drugs or got into choices that they're, they're not proud of. Right. That's grief also. But if you keep the negative dialogue of I'm not a good mother, if I was better, if I was more of enough, these things wouldn't have happened to my children. That's trauma. You're holding on to trauma and allowing it to create a negative neural pathway in your brain. And you're not treating it like grief. Grief is, is the struggle that, that has been brought into your life. Your story.

But when it, when it's in this constant negative now when you're going through it, we have to have some grace for ourselves. Right. Like, you know, when my 10 years of medical trauma with my son and always fearing his death, it's like it's, it is hard to, you know, think positive when negative things just keep hitting you. But when you're, when you're going internal with it and you're making it about you and that you're not enough and that it. That is causing continual trauma on you, so that cumulative effect, and so it's just keep. Keeps rising.

Do you think that that is very. I think that as you're saying that, I'm thinking, I think that must be very common with caretakers. So, like, if, whether you're a spouse or a daughter or a wife that is taking care of the person that's sick and you're waiting like you, you know that their death is coming or you're scared it's coming and you're in this role, I would imagine you would have this guilt or this story of like, I should have done more or if I had just found this right. Dr. If I adjust that as you're saying that, I'm realizing that's probably pretty common. What do you want that person to know?

So, and this happened in stages for me. Right. Like after losing my first son, I did, I think what every woman does under stress, just focus on her family. When I lost my second son, I did take the time and learn how to grieve and release trauma. And when I lost my daughter unexpectedly, although she had the same neurodegenerative condition that my son had, she was not sick, never spent the night in hospital, no indication that this disorder was going to kill her anytime soon, and she died in her sleep. And that.

Broke me to the core of having to understand spiritually what's going on.

Right.

And so. And then after that, I took care of my husband on hospice. And so I have experienced every type of caretaking and grief. But one of the things that I realized, if you're in that spot right now where you're taking care of someone, you know, whether special needs or whether close to death.

Like connecting with their soul, because this is not the end. And not to proselytize any belief system. Right. But we often separate mental health and spiritual health. And they're. They're really. If we. If we don't, like, work on our spiritual health and have an authentic relationship with something, it is going to impact how we. How we can handle grief. Right. How we can handle what happens after someone passes.

And the more we can understand that spiritual.

Belief system for yourself before this happens to you, the stronger. Like I have. I did all of the grieving before my husband passed. We were able to sit together and in both crying and in joy in what we knew was coming, which is a very different experience from my other deaths.

Yeah. So I do see a big difference with people that have faith that are. They have. I don't love the word religion, but the word faith, like, so they have a faith, and it's like they have a knowing. And I know. I remember when my dad died.

Years ago and I was 22, I remember wanting to know, like, where is he? Like, where did he go? And I didn't have. I didn't have a strong religious upbringing at all. So I just didn't have answers. And I remember being really.

Feeling really confused and lost. And then as I got older and developed my own relationship with God, for.

Me.

I feel that I've come a long way with a knowing around that.

What do you think about that? Because I think there's. I've got listeners of all different. I've all different types of listeners. I've got listeners that have a strong faith. I've got listeners that don't at all and don't want to. And, you know, I don't. What. What do you want to say to them?

Yeah, well, I'm actually working on my next book, which is going to Be titled A Woman's Search for Meaning. And really this spiritual walk. So I was not raised with any kind of religious background. Single mother, kind of poor. And.

When I was a teenager, I like to think I drove her to have a faith, and she joined a church. And then I had what they would call, like a born again experience when I was 19. But then after losing my first son and then Reggie getting sick and then Reggie dying, that's a huge spiritual conflict of thinking that this God is loving and protective and these horrible things are happening.

I'm sure you were mad. You were probably mad.

Yes, absolutely.

And then going into Maya's death and I just. After Maya's death, at first I was trying to rationalize what I believed from people. What other people taught me was suppose what I was supposed to believe. And I was trying to reconcile it with what was actually happening in my life. When Maya died, I started from scratch. I'm like, I know that there is something more than me, but I'm throwing out everything else but that. That concept. And I started to, you know, learn meditation practices, and I. I did a lot of things like tarot cards, and I saw a medium, and I.

Just.

Which is kind of the opposite of faith, so. That's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. I just. I'm. I'm going to. To open up to reality.

Yeah.

And what I. What I say to my very loving Christian friends who were scared of some of the things that I was doing, I say, if God is who he says he is, he's gonna show up wherever I am. Right. And this journey has allowed me to have a more authentic relationship than I ever would have had had I not started from scratch and just said, I've gotta feel it directly from God in order to believe it. Not. I heard it in a sermon or somebody said to read this, or.

I think it's a personal relationship for a reason. I mean, not to. I mean, I am certainly not the expert on all religions or faith or any of that, but I feel it's a personal relationship. And I guess my advice to somebody, and I'm curious, yours, that is really struggling right now is that's one place to look. Because I will say I do see a big divide with people at peace and people that are really struggling with. If you ask them about their beliefs there, and there's this. It gives them a little bit of a. It gives them a certainty versus the unknown. And I lived in the unknown with my dad. Like. Like, where. Well, where did he go?

Like, where.

Where is he? And I'LL tell you, I feel a lot more at peace with my, with my belief around that. So in my. It's my personal, it's my belief. It's not, not for me to put it on anybody else, but I think it's one area to look at for sure. Interrupting this episode of Midlife conversation for just a moment to tell you about one of my sponsors, Aegis, and one of their specific products, Tudka Max. Now, you may have heard of Tudka, but it's the ultimate liver and gut detox. And I want to talk about this because it's something you probably don't think about daily, but it should be something we think about daily and that's bile flow. Sounds weird, right? But bile is critical for our liver function, detoxification, digestion, and even our nervous system regulation. And in today's world, where we're constantly exposed to toxins like, we literally cannot avoid them. They're everywhere. Processed foods, stress, poor sleep. Our body's natural bile production might not be quite cutting it. That's why Tadka Max is a total game changer. Tadka is a special bile acid that supports healthy bile flow, fat digestion, and the absorption of essential nutrients like vitamins A, D, E and K. But its benefits go beyond just digestion. It helps your liver clear out toxins, supports gut gut health, and even has a neuroprotective effect. So when your bio flow is optimized, you'll likely experience better digestion, less bloating, increased energy levels, improved skin clarity, stronger immune function, and a healthier gut and nervous system. So Tuda Max is a daily detoxifier you can use every day and gut support powerhouse. And you can get it@aegisformulas.com that's A, E, G, I, S, formulas.com and if you use the coupon code, Natalie Jill, you'll get a discount off your first order.

Well, and, and the only thing I would add there is you don't have to go somewhere to look into it.

If you feel comfortable walking into, you know, the, the faith that you were grow, you grew up in or you know, someone's invited you to a church if, if you feel led to do that. Absolutely. You're being led to do that. You should do that. Yeah. I think in our current culture we have many people who are angry with God and so therefore they're angry with the church.

Yeah.

And I can tell you the church has hurt me.

Not on purpose. I think the intention of people is usually good.

But, you know, sometimes they'll say things like, well, you know, God wouldn't give you more than you could handle.

Oh, I can't stand when people say that.

You know, like. And it's well meaning, they don't mean to hurt your feelings.

Awful. Stop saying that if it's you.

Yeah, terrible. I think a lot of people are resistant to go to an organized place of faith.

But God can meet you wherever you are. Just ask him. Yeah. And that's what I tell people. Just get into a state of, you know, we think meditation is emptying your mind and you're missing the. The main point is you empty your mind in order to listen to the universe. Right. Like, okay, what. So you go into a meditation, prayer, whatever you want to call it, and you stop and listen like God wants to. To give you something.

Yeah. Okay. I've got a lot of questions for you, but I'm going to start with. I want to. Actually, I want to get into some tactical stuff, if we can. I want to give like a. Do this, don't do that. And I want. I want to ask you about two camps. I want to ask you. I'm going to start with first. The person that's in grief. Okay. With. And they are stuck in it. And they know. And I want to share. I just. I just spoke on stage last week at the time of this recording, and I heard a friend of mine, Mindy Lawhorn, who I'll have to have on the show, too. I'm going to. She lost her husband and her sister in the. In the last, like, four years. And she was sharing about trauma and grief. And one thing that really stuck out to me, she had everyone close her eyes and that she wanted them to imagine somebody that's gone through a trauma. She said, I want you to picture somebody that went through. Not yourself, but somebody that went through a deep loss or trauma. She had everyone picture this. And then she said, now I want you to think what good came from their life after that. That would not have happened had that trauma not happened. And that exercise gave me chills because.

Wow.

Wow.

Easy to see in other people. It's really, really hard to see in yourself. And it can. I can tell you I offended one of my YouTube followers just recently because I did a video on gratitude, and I started it with that I am grateful for my children's life and their death. And she. She must. She must have stopped watching because obviously I went further and explained.

But it took me probably three years after Maya's death to really be able to say that with confidence. Right. And you know, there's, and it's, it's so stacked and so layered and oftentimes the vic, we call it a victim stance. It's like something horrible has happened to you. And with women, I can guarantee you 50% of your women have been sexually assaulted at least. Right. Some of them horribly. And you know, that, that trauma, we've, we hold on to it and it becomes a victim stance of our story rather than being able to get to a point of how did I grow from that? How am I a better person from that? And gosh, that's a hard thing to say, right? Because these are horrible things that happen to women and I only mention sexual assault just because almost everybody has experienced something like that or knows someone who has. And these traumas that we've experienced, grief or trauma or they shape who we are and they can shape us into a negative or they can give us strength. And I wouldn't condone obviously any of those things, but can we really learn to work through these things that have happened to us?

So given. I believe people want to, I believe people will hear this and say, I want to do that. I'm stuck, I'm sad, I'm drained, I'm. What would you tell, like, what are some things that if you were to like, step out of. You're, you're helping somebody else, looking, knowing what you know is going to happen for them and they don't see it yet, they're stuck and you're going to interrupt them, you're going to like, I want you to focus on this right now or these three things or this. What would you tell them? What do you want them to do to start to shift?

So the first thing is we have to love ourselves and we often don't even know ourselves. And so how can we love ourselves? So I talk about, like, you need to know yourself like yourself and then you can love yourself and so some self exploration of how to fill your cup, you know, because part of, you know, trauma is.

You know, the negative dialogue around that is that there's something wrong with us and that's why it happened. Right. I'm not a good mother. That's why my kids died. Right. Like part, you know, that's, that's the trauma. But if, if we can believe that, then, then gives it more power and then the more you believe it and the more you say it, the more power you give it and you're fueling. So we've, we've got to stop the negative dialogue and, and learn to like ourselves and love ourselves. And then the second is finding what works for you to release trauma. There's lots of different techniques, but trauma absolutely needs to be released from the body. You've got to get rid of it. And people will say, oh, I'm not forgiving that person or I'm not letting that go.

Then that's a choice. Like, you know, and it's hard to say. And that's, it's a choice. I could have had a choice to stay depressed and angry my whole life and I don't think anybody would fault me for that.

No, right? No.

But I choose to figure it out and learn how to release the pain and still tell my story. It's still part of who I am. It changed me forever. Right. Think of trauma like losing a limb. Maybe it's just your pinky finger or maybe it's your whole arm, but could you learn to live and find joy and, and learn to function without that arm? Yes, you can. Is it hard? Yes. But it's still a choice. Or you could, you know, live in an idea of, you know, I'm disabled for the rest of my life and it's never going to get better. Like, sure. And, and we don't. So this is one of the problems with the anti mental health stigma. So I think it's important that we take the stigma away from mental health so that people feel comfortable getting help. Yes. But unfortunately it's created this like identity instead of resolution. I, I am, I have so many patients come to me, like, I'm so anxious I can't leave the house. I need you to sign disability paperwork. And I'm like, so now it's a crutch. Actually the t, the, the treatment is to system what we call systematic desensitization. And we're going to like work on your anxiety so that you can leave the house. Right. And you know, short term disability for these things. Absolutely. And there are some mental health conditions that are long term disability. But I'm just saying like in, in this, in this mindset of anti stigma we've created a, well, this is what's wrong with me and I'm just going to own it. So don't do that. Like that's.

So that's like looking for.

The label, looking for the, this is the thing. And that's what we do with medicine a lot. You know, like this is a symptom. We're looking for the pill, the quick cure. And if I'm hearing you correctly, it's not as simple as that there's the process and there's how do you release trauma, not just how do you shut it off? Did I hear that right?

And right not to shut it off or try to suppress it or get rid of it. We live in a fast food culture. We want it to be simple. And I do think that many women in certain stages of their life are going to need some things like antidepressants or things to help in that process.

But what happens is.

Antidepressants, even the best one, is only going to help about 50%. Like, you still have to choose to find joy. It's not, it's not a joy pill. It is a antidepressant. It lifts you out. And then, you know, they'll say, oh, well, I feel numb. Or I feel. And it's like, yes, it's brought you out of this clinical depression. Now it's time to work on some of those things. And I, I've been on an antidepressant at two times in my life and I'm not currently on one now. But it, so, so I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I think that, you know, learning to use it as a tool instead of, oh, well, I'm clinically depressed. I have low neurotransmission. Anybody going through menopause has low neurotransmission.

Well, in any grief, like it's normal. Sometimes it's normal to you. You, I mean, you have to feel and be, it's okay to be sad and cry and to be depressed. And I think part of the numbing it and like not ever feeling it creates more trauma in our body.

I think, well, it causes a cumulative, A cumulative effect. Right? Yeah. So then the next one and the next.

And look, I'm, I'm need this advice myself. I'm not, I mean, I don't. My choice might not be medication, but I've numbed with work, I've numbed with being busy. I've not, I realized, and I've noticed.

A lot with, with people who are in the fitness industry that you've learned what fills your cup. Right. And you, you know that you feel good when you are exercising and doing these things. And so that's part of the. Know yourself, like yourself, love yourself. But sometimes, and I can tell you I've been in this space before, I'm definitely more confident in myself now. But sometimes in the past, I would look at a woman like you and kind of be jealous or like, oh, I wish I could deal with my stress through Exercise.

Because for me, I don't actually deal with it through exercise. Just say that it's interesting. Like, that's not how I. So. But I will say so my. How I've dealt with the stress is being busy, how. How I've always done. And that's not healthy either. I don't believe I'll share that. When my dad died at age. Again, this is a long time ago. He was. I'm 53 now. But when he died, my dad was my everything. And I was the kind of kid that. That he did literally everything for me. I. I didn't know. And when he died, I didn't know how I was gonna function in life. Like, literally. It was like, I remember asking my boyfriend to drop me off at the airport, and I was like, what? You're not walking me into the gate? This is when you could walk someone to the gate. I didn't know how to navigate an airport. I didn't know how to do. I didn't know how to do anything. My credit card was co. Signed with my dad. I literally was daddy's little girl. Didn't know how to do anything. And I think back now to how independent I am and how strong I am and how much I've done with business. And I wouldn't be that person had my dad still. I. I know this, but I guess my point to this is I. I never grieved my dad the way that I needed to. I believe that. And it affected me in a lot of ways. And I've had to go back and, like, really process and work on this because I'm actually envious of people that know how to grieve properly. So it's interesting you said, I wish I could grieve. Taking it out on that. I think we all look at someone else and go, I should have done it that way. I wish I had cried and felt it. I remember being at my dad's funeral and I couldn't even cry. It was like nothing coming out of me. I just didn't. I thought I grew up in the 70s. You're not supposed to cry, you know.

Yeah.

So I actually think there's a. And you're the doctor, not me, but a really big importance in actually crying and feeling and being okay with just being messy in the grief.

Yeah. And in the trauma. So I. I call it controlled grief. And we don't do this. Right. We go to the funeral. I didn't cry. I can't cry. Like, that's the narrative that I had that. But Then that knot stays in your throat, the pain in your chest. And so what I say is controlled grief is on your terms. Because if we don't, if we don't grief, it will come out in other ways, whether it's mental health or physical health or just the heaviness of that grief. And I'm talking about little grief to big grief, right? Of taking the time and finding something that evokes those emotions. And some people don't cry at the funeral or these things because they, you know, they don't like to do those kind of things in public or, or they just don't know how. They don't know how to release and, and so.

Going into a space alone and bringing out pictures or. The first couple times I did this, I had my sister with me because I was actually scared of like, if I open this box of pain, am I going to lose it? Like literally lose it in my mind or, you know, some people are actually scared of hurting themselves, like suicidal thoughts. And so the first time I, first couple times I did this, my sister was with me. Now I can do it by myself, but I have a room in my house that is all my kids toys and stuffed animals and blankets. And I will go into that space.

Ready to cry. That's amazing. And, and I'll sit in there until it happens and I'll, I'll pick up something and try to, you know, and I'll remember when I bought that for them or the last time they were playing with it. Or I'll look at like photo albums and pictures and just let it come out. I think we're scared of, of losing it, right? Like we're scared of going crazy.

Or is that like our age group? Is that like we were raised to be tough? So we. It's like I watch my daughter, who's 18, she cries easily, like at everything. Like she just, she's so good with emotions.

It's an imprint of so many things, like your, your personality genetically, right. And then your personality astrologically, like how you know your imprint when you came into the world. And then all your life experiences play into how you show up in the world, right?

Yeah.

So there's so many, so many multiple factors on how. But I do think, you know, I mentioned this earlier, we grew up at a time where we wanted to be strong, powerful women, which.

Was perceived as being masculine. Like we had to have masculine features to be strong, powerful women. But then our heart is very soft and nurturing. And so we were, we were balancing this dialectic that, that felt like opposites.

I was literally told not to cry. Like when I was a kid, I'd be like, do not cry. Only babies cry. Like, you know, that's what I learned.

Well, I remember and this was after I had like joined the church and stuff, so I was a young adult, but I was told that like, emotion, you can't trust your emotions. Emotions are bad and women are messy and that's why they're not allowed to talk in church and stuff like that. But it was a pretty conservative church. But so, yeah, it has to do with, you know, multiple things, but you've got to feel that pain. So if you've gone through grief and you feel stuck, you have to figure out how to feel that pain. And when I say controlled grief, I mean you're in control of it. And you. And I, I suggest doing it in the evening because if you, when you do lose it, you're going to want to just go to sleep afterwards. Right. But go into a space, but mentally or physically where you can grieve. If there's a, you know, a gravesite you can go to and bring pictures with you and just sit in that or their old house. In my documentary, I went back to the house that I raised my kids in, the, the, the school that they went to and just allowed all of the emotions and the memories to come up and feel them. Now it doesn't make them go away. And this is where, this is why I don't like the five stages of grief.

It doesn't go away, but the intensity and frequency in which you have to feel that pain should decrease. So the first couple years, it's like, seems like all the time. But even in 20 years from now on, my kids birthdays, I'm gonna cry. Yeah, right. And that's okay. And this idea of, you know, even for your father's birthday, death, you know, or even holidays, that make you think, well, if he was here, this, you know, these things would be different. Like, it is okay to feel that and cry, but if you begin to like, do the negative, oh, my life was ruined because my dad died young. Like, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm never going to be able to be okay. And you know, like, if you.

I think there's the third step though. So like, yeah, okay, there's the. Yes, let's. I hear what you're saying about grieving it and it's okay and we have to do it. And then there's the, the, the self beat up. Like you're going into now. Like, oh, oh, why did this ruin my life?

Whatever.

I would say I'm not in either of those camps, so. And I'm thinking somebody else might also relate to this, where there's the. You just kind of push it. It's like, it's.

It's.

You just push it down. Like, you make it a non. Like, that's how we deal with trauma. You push it away. And I know that my husband points out to me, he's like, when you don't like somebody anymore, you make them dead to you. Which I do. I literally do. There's probably somebody listening. That's like, I was wondering why you didn't talk to me anymore. Like, I. That's. Because I learned that.

Are you a Scorpio, though?

No, I'm not, but I'm a Virgo.

But.

But what. What I. What I think I learned subconsciously is my. My dad was the. My most important person. He died just like that. Gone. So if someone disappoints me or hurts me, I make them gone. Like, I literally make them. They're like. It's like they're dead, too. And I didn't even realize he did it. He did it till he pointed it out. But I see this later. I see patterns with other people doing that too. So maybe some of my listeners relate, some don't.

But is that something that you want to change about it?

Oh, of course I want to change it. It's not a healthy way to. You know, like, if, God forbid, I get a bad comment on Instagram, you're dead to me. Like, you're like. Like, it's like, I just. That's just my reaction. Like, I don't even to see it anymore. Fine, you're gone. You know, that's not healthy. We can't. We can't control the world like that.

Yeah. And so what. So what I would do with that is we would sit down and we would do a thought map. And, you know, I'd say, how did it make you feel when that person did that? And then we'd map that all out, and I'd say, when. When has that happened in the past? When did that happen in your childhood? And how does that impact your relationship with God? And we'd get all of this out on paper, and we'd start to make these.

See the patterns in that. Because it's probably more than just the grief, right? Yeah. And then we'd put them in these different categories. Grief, trauma, triggers, core connections, anxieties. It's probably more complicated than just the fact that your father died at a young age. And then we, we begin to like, and this is the how, like learning how to think through your problems and organize them. Many self development work and, and books and things are like just think positive and, and you know, positive things will happen. Make a choice atomic habits like just, just do it. And it's way more complicated than that. And it's for women. Yeah, we have an emotional connection to everything. Right. Like, and we, and we need to honor that instead of trying to just show up in the masculine.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Honor the, the, the feminine nurturing empath that has these emotional connections. And so then we can put them into the different categories so that we do something different for them. So the grief is, we do that, controlled grief. Right. We take the time, feel the pain. Our negative self talk, we obviously replace that with positive self talk. But what do we do with anxiety? Anxiety is different. And you know, I can have a whole teaching on anxiety that we tell people, don't be anxious. But anxiety is actually a strength. It is your superpower, it is your productivity, it's your motor. And when you try to shut it off, you're, you're just swinging the pendulum the other direction. And so what I tell people, anxiety is also a continuum. You just need to move it to a manageable where it's giving you, propelling you forward rather than, you know, holding you back.

Because I feel like almost a lot with a lot of, especially things like ADHD diagnosis, which I definitely am that too. Like there's, you can look at it all. It's not an either or. Like there's goods with everything. Like it's, I believe ADHD makes people, makes me for sure creative. It makes me. If someone, I, you know, I say, if I wasn't paying attention in school, I didn't blame my add. I said the teacher's boring. That's just what I did. So that's how I looked at things.

I want to be successful. I'll be successful. When you, when you want me to read these old history paragraphs and answer questions.

If I'm interested, I'm interested. If not, it's because the person's boring. But it's interesting how we all look through those lenses. Like some people will say, no, I, this is my, I have adhd. I've got to fix this. Like, this is why. And I, I'm like, no, their person's boring. Like, it's just, we all look at things different, which is the same thing. I think we do with grief. We all process so different. And I believe there's no right or wrong way. And I. I want women to hear that too, because I don't want someone to hear something you're suggesting or I share it and then feel judged that they're doing it wrong. Because I don't. I don't believe there's a wrong way.

There's not a wrong way. But there. There is accountability for your own journey. And that's what I would tell women. Like, take. Take accountability for your journey. Figure out, you know. You know, get to know yourself. Like yourself. Love yourself. Listen to the professionals around you as consultants, not as gods. If you go to your doctor and they say you have ADHD and you should be on this medicine, that is a conscious consultant.

Yeah. Not a guy.

You're right. It's. It is your body. I also have adhd and I don't take medicine for it because I. I like how I show up. Yeah. You know, without it. Right. Like, I. I'm just more empathetic. I'm more connected. I'm more in tune with my creative side and. But I can't read a paragraph to save my life.

And I've tried both, as I tried both over the years. I've definitely done medication at times. I've not done it. And I kind of feel like you. Like, I don't.

I don't.

I don't like to mute my creativity. I don't like to. But I also am very aware not to do things that are going to bore me or that I don't, you know, want to. To do. That's a whole nother. That's a whole nother topic there. Yeah. What do people do wrong to. With people that are grieving? So, for example, I think nothing makes me cringe more than when someone is experiencing a loss and someone. And I'm a dog person, believe me, I love my pets.

But.

But someone's like, oh, I know what that's like. I lost my dog. I'm like, come on. Like, your dog is not the same as your. Your spouse, your child, your parent. Like, so that. I feel like I had to say that one. Cause that drives me fricking bonkers. Like, I'm not saying it's missing you grieving your dog. Of course. That's terrible. I Dog person, too.

This has been a. A journey for me with the whole dog thing, because I. I actually used to get, like, angry. Like, how could you compare your dog to my child?

1. I think that the intent of the person is important. And if I, I have always looked at the intent of the person was just trying to connect with me. They were maybe trying to.

You know, and, and I do. And I'm not a, I'm not an animal person. I don't, I don't receive joy from my animals. Right.

I do. And I'm still annoyed by that comment. I love my dog, but I wouldn't compare it to someone's human.

Yeah. I think in my recent like spiritual expansion, I've realized that animals do have a soul. Yeah. You can have connected, you know, with that soul and that, that be very painful for you. I think I would, I would not say that to someone who has lost a person just because it. For years. It was a very angry.

I'm not dismissing the pain, by the way. I'm not saying if you lost a pet, it's not, it's not tragic and horrible. I do understand that. I'm saying, do they realize how much that's hurting the person that's lost a person to say that?

I, I, even though I've lost three children and my husband, I don't even say I understand someone else's pain because we don't ever really understand someone else's pain. Because remember I talked about the cumulative trauma.

Yeah.

Like how, how you are receiving your current pain has everything to do with all your previous pain. Right. And whether you've been able to work through it or whether. And I've been on this self development journey like you for 20 plus years. Like and, and I'm still, you know, trying to figure it all out. Right. Some people haven't even started yet. And so.

I would just avoid the words I understand because that's a good, great advice.

Because we don't understand.

Right.

Yeah. So that good, great call.

Because I think we all mean to.

Do the right thing and we're saying the wrong thing.

And oftentimes they want to say something so they are like, how are you doing? And it's just a, it's too of a loaded question and it's. And so the person's going to say, okay. You know, like it doesn't open the door to a real conversation if you are alone with someone who you are trying to really be that support. I want you to use the sentence, where are your thoughts today?

That's a great one.

Because it's different every day. Some days I was like, you know, I got this. I just had a prayer or a spiritual experience with my child or I just had a, you know, an awakening. And I, I, and, and so I can share some of those things. Some days I'm beating myself up and I'm like. And so when you say, where are your thoughts? It requires an actual answer. Because when you say, how are you doing? Like, you know, it's not. It sucks.

Like, I really think. What about when people say I'm sorry? Because that, that also feels a little empty. And I think that's. I'm just thinking of things that people say. They're trying to connect.

That that's fine. I think that that's fine. But what. Try to get away from pity. And this is, you know, part of me trying to come out and be a national speaker in mental strength. Sometimes people hear my story and they have pity for, for me.

Right.

And I.

Do not give pity. Like, it's okay to say I'm sorry because you are sorry that they're going through that.

You made it very clear. You made it very clear. When I met you and you were talking to the audience, and I remember Joe introduced you and he shared a little bit about your story. And that's why I knew to do that at the beginning. And you said, I wanted him to do it because I. This is not. We're talking forward now, and I don't want to feel and go through all that right now in this position. This is, I have a place for that. So I. It was an interesting perspective. What does, what should one say to somebody who is newly going through something? What's the proper way to handle that?

So just show up. There's not a right word. Just show up. You know, I remember and I'll try not to cry, but I remember, like, after both of my son dying and my daughter dying.

There was people at the house, and they were all people that I love and care for. I don't even. I couldn't give you the actual list of who was there, right. But some people were coordinating meals and some people were cleaning and some people were just sitting with either me or my husband. Right. Like, and just, just be present. Like in those, you know, acute. This just happened, just being present, but don't stop showing up. And this is what happens after the, the funeral is over. Probably about two weeks after the funeral is over. The meal trains have stopped. And this is when it actually hits the reality of the grief actually hits a month later, right? This is when your good friends need to remember to show up. Like, I mean, if this is like just your neighbor or like, not really your close friend, probably not the time to Keep annoying them, right? Because they. But if this is your close friend, if this is your best girlfriend, you know, your sister.

This is when they need you the most. That one to six months of showing up as often as you can.

You said that you couldn't remember exactly who showed up. I am pretty confident you remember who didn't show up, though. And I, I can say the same with my, with my dad. I, I can't remember who was at his funeral, but I definitely remember the friends that didn't show up that said things like, I just can't do funerals or I didn't know how to. I didn't know how to deal with it. I remembered that I remember who those people were.

And that still hurts.

I still. Till this day. So, So I think what you said is brief. Yeah. I'm sure.

What you said, really, that it's, it's just showing up and just being present and seeing what they need. And, And I, I maybe add to it not asking what they need because they don't know what they need. So that makes another burden.

Yeah. A lot of times I'll say, give them a choice.

Oh, yeah, that's great.

Said, what do you want to eat? I don't know what I want to eat. You know, do you want me to. To make you a lasagna or do you want me to pick up chick Fil? A? Right. Like, just give me two choices or.

I'm coming to help clean your house. I'm doing it Tuesday or Wednesday, which, which is better.

Right?

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when, when you ask, you know, what can I. One, we don't want to be a burden to other people. Totally. That's a woman thing. And, but we do need the help. So just show up, just say, you know, we're having a girls night, you know, Friday, I'm coming over and let them say no. I mean, they're, they're.

Yeah.

We have to respect boundaries if they say no. But yeah, asking is.

You know, and showing in that one to six months after showing up alone, like just you and your girlfriend, just. And letting. Letting her be a mess, letting her cry, letting her. In this times, it's okay to let them have the negative thoughts. Like, you know, when I talk a lot about, you know, not making, not holding on to this trauma and things like that, but if you've just lost a child, you've just lost a spouse, you need, you need it to be okay that your best friend's gonna let you be that negative person for a while, right?

But after the six months, the six months is kind of that pivotal point of you get to decide how this is gonna impact the rest of your life. And, you know, and I knew that I was gonna figure it out. Like, I didn't. I didn't know how, but I was gonna figure it out. And even though I had created the mentally strong method during Reggie's sickness, and it was my. It's what I taught after Reggie.

After Maya's death, it was my safety net. Like, I didn't get to the point of actually wanting to kill myself or, you know, there's. And when I say that suicidality, I think it's important that we stop. And, you know, many of us have been there, and we don't want to tell anybody we've ever been there.

But it could just be a thought. Never let it be a plan or an action, because really, what you're saying is this pain that I'm currently going through is too much. Okay? And. And that's what it is. Okay? It's too much.

Now. So all I need you to do today is breathe. Just breathe. Right?

But not allowing it to ever be a plan or an action. It's just a thought. And it just means that your brain, your spirit, your soul is at its limit.

Makes sense.

Wow.

This was so good. I'm sure we're gonna have more questions for you later, but where. Where do people find your books? Where can they find you? Where can they learn more?

Yeah. So there should be a. A link to a free copy of my book, Pain and Purpose. I also have several workbooks, but I am doing a mentally strong intensive where women can come to Colorado Springs for three days and work with me directly. We will. It will be very transformative. We learn the mental strong method, but then we also learn all the different ways that. That you can release trauma. And. And you'll leave with a plan of what works for me and how do I move forward with that. So if you click the link for the free book, you will get an email and you'll be able to read the book, watch the documentary. If you read my book and watch my documentary, you'll know me intimately. So good. Trust that I can help you.

We'll make sure we link that up with all below. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to midlife Conversations today. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and tag me Natalie, Jill Fitz and our guests on social media. The best way to support the show is by leaving a review. Send a screenshot of your review to support NatalieJill fitness.com for a free digital DSR journal download. And just a friendly reminder, I'm here with microphone, not a medical degree. Half the time I'm sharing things that I read on the Internet or learned just as you were learning it while I'm interviewing the guest. I'm not an MD or your therapist or your mom, though I do give excellent mom style pep talks. This podcast is purely for entertainment, curiosity and educational purposes. When in doubt, please ask your own doctor. For advertising inquiries, contact contact salesadminategory3ca and this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice. Always seek advice from your physician. Some episodes of midlife conversation may be sponsored by products or services, and I may receive compensation for advertisement of your purchases through affiliate links.

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