465: Traditional Chinese Medicine's Approach to Menopause (Far Beyond Hormone Replacement) with Dr. Chris Motley

So I'm with you. You need to create a new momentum, so you'd have to swipe the old one off. I do believe that acupuncture and techniques that are emotional based techniques that use acupuncture can help you swipe them off. But you yourself, like you said, you have to create the new program. You have to create new, like I'm going to do this in my life, I'm going to go this far. But I'm saying that acupuncture helps you swipe off the old program.

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Welcome to Midlife Conversations. I'm your host, Natalie Jill, and I'm passionate about having amazing conversations that matter to us midlife women. On this podcast podcast, I do what I do best, taking complicated health topics and breaking them down simply so that we can optimize aging together, I share actionable steps to help you thrive in what I believe are our best years to come. Join me as I interview the most inspiring people living their best midlife years and dive into essential topics like hormone changes, health optimization, weight management, blood sugar, emotional well being, relationships, beauty, and so much more. For centuries, Western medicine has treated menopause like a disease. A hormone deficiency to be corrected, a breakdown to be managed. We have been conditioned to believe that this transition means inevitable decline, discomfort, and diminished vitality. What if there was another perspective that could help us rewrite this narrative? Halfway across the world, an ancient medical tradition has been honoring women's midlife transitions as sacred. Believe it or not, not the end of vitality, but the beginning of our wisdom years. Today, my guest, Dr. Christopher Motley. He's an expert in traditional Chinese medicine. He's going to take us deep into the world of traditional Chinese medicine, where your symptoms aren't necessarily problems to be silenced and where the second half of our lives isn't about managing decline, but rather about claiming our new power. Doesn't that sound great? He's going to help us understand how Eastern approaches to women's health and aging differ from Western paradigms and what we might gain by integrating this new perspective. Thank you so much for being here. Dr. Chris Motley. Loving your podcast. I'm loving your podcast. If you don't know what it is, it's the ancient health podcast. So good. Thank you for being here. I'm so excited for this perspective.

Oh, thank you for having me. And I'm just so glad we got to connect and so thankful for the people we know mutually that, like, God is connected. And I mean, this is like a good friendship because I can tell, like, I love the way you operate and how you see health and you treat people. So bio individual. So, yes, I'm really happy to be here and I'm loving to talk about anything, like with hormones and Chinese medicine.

No, you know what's funny? So when I. When I was first going to interview you, I really wanted to. I'm like, I want to hear this perspective. I want to learn from him. But I had this bias coming up, so I'm just going to say it. I'm like, he's a dude. He's not. He's not a midlife woman. So how is he going to help us here? And I'm sure you get this. Sometimes I just wanted to lean into the uncomfortable thing first because I know you have a lot of women clients, like, tell me what comes up around that, because they are dealing with this truly.

And that's a very valid, true statement. And I, I totally respect that. I think I come from the angle for everybody listening that I, I do have worked with individuals with ladies that have their hormonal tests come to me. But I always, always first say, I don't know exactly how you feel, but I am. I thought I've, over the years that I've gotten good at finding which organ patterns and toxicity like you and I talked about on the podcast about any infections and microbes. So the one thing that I think over the years to help a lady is that now more are coming to me over the years because I help clean out their gut and clean out the infections in certain organs because those organs can then correlate to the ovaries and cause some issues. The ovaries and the uterus. That's how I feel like I've been really effective. And so I don't want to act like I know everything about how a lady feels. I really am not that way. But I'm thankful. Over the years I've had majority of my pages, about 80% of them are ladies. And it's really because. And you said this before, it's like whenever you feel a certain way and you feel disconnected, there are times when they've gone to the regular Western medicine route. No knock on Western medicine. I'm just saying they've gone that route and they're like, I've got to have some different view. So the only reason people came to me is because they wanted a different view. And I'm thankful for that because they're just like, I don't know what really you do, but my friend said that you stuff with parasites and stuff and it helped her cycle get regulated. And I'm like, granted. Let's go. Let's do this. Okay, that's. That's me.

Okay. So I want to lean into this. So tcm, Traditional Chinese medicine. That's what it stands for, right? That's okay. What is that exactly? Like, what is the belief set around that how do. What's the approach there?

Now there are a lot of facets of tcm. So without getting too Boring. You're going to see people that can go through acupuncture, moxibustion, where they burn this moxa. You see, it's like almost using scent therapy. You have cupping. You ever seen cupping? Herbals, acupressure, gua sha, massage. These are all parts of traditional Chinese medicine. So when you see that they've put them together, the premise is that you and I all have electrical wiring in our muscles and fascia and that electricity is traveling through specific wiring, not the nerves, but there's specific pathways that are 12 on each side.

Okay?

One in the front, one in the back. So I wish I had my medicine doll, my Chinese medicine doll, but that these pathways literally are sending electricity around the highway on your body. And that electrical highway is stopping off at certain stops on the highway to give energy to certain organs. I hope that makes sense. So it's going down the gallbladder meridian. It jumps off into the gallbladder, gives it energy, and the gallbladder, like, thank you very much, I appreciate that. And then the energy gets. And it passes right through the gallbladder and goes down the highway and. And it'll go into the liver. So that's how your body gives energy, electricity, chi to the organ. So Chinese medicine would say, what if there's a block in the highway? What if there's a block in the electrical highway? That means if there was a block right after the gallbladder, like, let the gallbladder. So sick. What if somebody had sick gallbladder? The chi goes to the gallbladder, it's nurturing it, trying to heal it. And then the liver says, hey, I'm down the wire. I need the energy. But the gallbladder says, hey, I'm really sick. I can't let go of this energy because there's emotions involved. And it won't allow the chi to wallow down to the liver. So the liver gets sick, it gets deficient, Gallbladder gets overexcited, liver gets deficient. Now, the function of the organs then show up on your blood test. Okay, What I'm doing is Chinese medicine would say, find the blocks, release the blocks, allow the energy to flow through all the organ systems. And here's a really cool factor. Not only do the organs help each other flourish and get stronger in this psychical circadian rhythm in your body, but they also have a thing called a co cycle. And people say, what is a co cycle? Co cycle means destructive cycle. So there's a building of chi, and there's also a chi pattern in Every one of us, you and I, that organs. Keep an eye on each other. They're called. Basically, it's like a big brother, little brother, big sister, little sister. Like, you're getting ahead of yourself. Don't overdo it. So have you ever heard of Chinese elements?

Elements, Yes. I don't really understand it. So help.

Exactly. It's like that. I hope this is not too boring.

No, this is good.

So you have the elements, and this is where the co cycle comes in. You have the fire, right. You have earth, metal, water, wood. You have five elements. But think about the names, like let's say metal, which is represented by the ax. If you have somebody who's a very strong metal quality and they're very edgy and they're very sharp, they would cut into a wood element like myself.

Okay, okay.

So the organs, I'm saying, like the organs of the metal element are the lungs and the large intestine. If they're overabundant and they're sick, they will pick on the wood element organs. I know that's a lot to take in, so I'm saying it is a.

Lot to take in, but I'm intrigued. So.

So it is intriguing.

So, okay, so wait, I want to back up a minute here. So, okay, so this is like, this is bigger than obviously menopause and what's going on. This is like our whole life with. It's a different approach. So when someone is not feeling well in any area, you. I, I don't want to oversimplify here, but I, I might.

I love it when you oversimplify.

Okay, do it, do it, do it. So like traditional Western medicine, you have a symptom, something's wrong, and they go, let's stop the symptom and fix it. Another level of Western medicine would be what's causing it to be wrong. But you're going like many steps back and saying, wait a minute, there's a blockage that created this to manifest that way. Is that. Am I saying that correctly?

Right. You over that's way simp it. We. We go back and what we're trying to do is find the point of the blockage and then we identify the organ that's associated with that blockage. And if you heal that organ and get rid of that blockage, everything downstream starts to fall in place. It gets balanced.

Okay. So like, I just wanted to throw out a few examples, and I'm going to start with maybe one that I've experienced. So let's take back pain. Like you have lower Back pain. And somebody goes to an orthopedic surgeon and they're like, you have a disc bulge. You need a surgery. So that. That's one approach, right? Or they go to their general practitioner and they say, you have inflammation, you need an ac, like to stop the inflammation, right? Or you go to the physical therapist and they're saying, well, wait, you have this. This problem, so let's fix the exercises. But they go to the acupuncturist, they go to you and you say, we're going to put some needles in these areas to undo the blockage that's causing that. Did I know?

I'm like, no, it truly. And the good thing is that as seriously my office too. I'm like, no, go do those things and go check and make sure you all parts are listed. What I would do for people listening, first thing with low back pain is I would always check the meridian pathways, a little electrical pathways that are running through the low back, which would be the bladder. And there's cross ones that have to do with the colon. So the first two things I would do is check that person's energy in their bladder and in their colon.

And how do you check the energy in those areas?

We do pulse points analysis where we get very sensitive to where we put our fingers on the pulses on the wrist. We check the tongue, we check the eyes, We. We check basically the hands and the structure and the color of the hands, tongues and eyes will tell you which organ usually is off. I do free medicine too, where I do biofeedback devices that allows me to find out how much electricity they have, these little devices, how much electricity is running through that wire. And so basically I have a little device. I put it on the bladder meridian point, which is one of their master points.

Okay.

It'll tell me how much voltage is running through that wiring. So it would tell me. Let's say you went. Natalie said, well, I've got a uti. I know I have a uti, but they keep telling how no E. Coli. I'm like. And then they come to me and I'd check it. And I'm like, that meridian is super low. It is drained. I'm telling you, there's a bacterial infection in the. And they're not going to check for anything else, but just. Right, right. So then I check history. We check if there's been any bladder infection in the past. Guarantee there has. We clear that up. And I'm telling you, black back pain can go away. Literally. I've seen people with really bad disc bulges.

Okay.

Fixing their bladder and also their colon in the same way. Because the nerve. This is how neurology comes in. The nerve, guys, from the colon or from the bladder, they share nerve roots. They literally go into the spine, where at L5 and S1. So when you see a bulge disc, I know the orthopedics like, let's have surgery. But in my world, I'm like, no, the nerve that goes into that disc is going out to the bladder, into the large intestine. And they could have infections and yeast and mold and viruses and parasites, and they're overstimulating that organ, sending a really bad signal back to the disc. And the disc is super inflamed. And. And you're always going to say, well, my low back keeps coming out. I don't. I've done all the exercises, but it keeps slipping out. It's because there's a sick organ behind it. That's where Chinese medicine comes into play. I know it's a lot to take in, guys, but it's. It's not. Go to these other practitioners. Yeah, it's valid. You need to do it. But we're trying to find the blockages and then find why the blockages are occurring in the qi. That's the. That's the goal of Chinese medicine.

Okay.

So that's a lot. Sorry.

No, no, it's good. I'm trying to follow here. So it's not. Do this instead of. It sounds complimentary. So, like, you're saying, like, you want to do the exercises, you want to get inflammation down. You want to do that, but we've got to figure out root cause. So how does that work? Like, if you actually. Let's just say you have. And I know we're on back pain now. We're talking about menopause. We're going to get to that, too. Promise. But you take. So you actually have a. Like. And that's actually me. L5s1. Like, I had a ruptured disc there. So that's real. So the structural thing can be real. But you're saying in addition to the structural thing being real, how you feel it's related to that. I want to understand the correlation.

That is completely valid. That's completely right. It's because you have a blown disc. You have to go get pt. You have to probably may get surgery. You have to do certain therapies and exercises. What?

I was factual. But then you're actual.

Now, like, the other part would be, like, I would check for you. I Would say, okay, first of all, in that area, I'd probably go to bladder, ovaries, urinary tract system, those areas. Okay, Do a lot of analysis. The backdrop would be now, I don't want to get over complicated, but when you find out that organ is not working 100% and it's inflaming the disc, your disc will keep getting inflamed even after you get all the PT and things because it just keeps stimulating. And then I, as a practitioner, what I would do is I would look into the emotions of the bladder and the kidney. I would say, was there a trauma in your life that you had high amounts of fear and ever feeling like you're stuck in life, I can't move forward. That's a huge emotion of the kidneys and the bladder. And that's the bladder going into the low back. So that's stimulating your low back to have pain. That's what I would first suspect.

Okay, wait, this is wild here. So this. You just brought in another component. There's a whole nother train of thought. I didn't even know we were going to go here, but we're going to go here. Now. There's a whole nother train of thought when it comes to pain, especially back pain, about emotions. Is that what they're referring to? Are those different too?

No, no, totally. I love how you, you show on your podcast where we're saying everything's complimentary, but the back pain, which you do in Chinese medicine, is if you have pain in a particular area of the back. Okay. So down the spine. Oh, it's my mid back around my kidneys. Where your pain is, do you then relate it to the acupuncture points that line the spine?

Okay.

You find it like tic tac toe. You just go, okay, what's that point? That one's related to an organ. So the. And then I would say, oh, let's say it's your spleen. Somebody has a swollen spleen or mono when they're a kid, then the emotion with the spleen is what worry pensive. Do you worry over worry? Do you get over concerned? And that will inflame that T7 disc. That mid back disc or like that always hurts. My chiropractor always has to pop it. My physical therapist always says, yep, lats are always weak. When I do a lat pull down, I can't pull down. My triceps are always weak from the spleen. And that's what, like, that's what I love to do. Then I Go into their emotions. And some people will say. And they say to you too, they go, did you know that about my emotions? Like that? I said, I. I'm not a rocket scientist. I just know how to press points and know where to go on the acupuncture system.

So when you're putting point. When you're doing the points. Acupressure or acupuncture, first of all, is there a difference with that? Like, does it. Different levels and like, what's the difference there? Acupressure and acupuncture and that. And then what is that actually doing? Like, how is that fixing it?

Okay, so you are so good asking questions because I got to try and make this as simple possible. Don't stop talking and getting rattled. And people are like, Christy, the producer, she's like, okay, buddy, you need to settle it down. Okay, so when acupressure, there's arguments, acupressure. Never underestimate whoever's listening that you can use your hand, your finger, or pressure to open up the blockage within the muscle or the fascia, the connective tissue.

Okay.

I hope this is a visual. Everybody thinking you have these little wiring going through your muscles, like in certain pat. Like down these little highways. Maybe I can. I'll send you a picture of the Chinese medicine chart. Maybe they could put it up and. But I'm saying you can use pressure, your own hand, digital pressure, to open up the fascia. Like, there's not the trigger spot. No, that's an acupuncture point. Okay, that's good. There's arguments that some acupuncture say, no, you need to use a steel. A steel needle. Yeah, I need to use a gold needle. I need to use a silver. They say silver sedates all this. All these arguments. Some people use laser acupuncture. Do they all work? Yes, I think they all do. Is one better than the other? Some would argue, but you and I are the same way. I'm like, they can. But I found really good. I've used them all, and I think they can all work if you use them in the right way. But this is the difference. It all depends on the angle or the vector. Like the angle. Like an antenna on a tv. It depends on what angle you press into that point. That's the key. Like rabbit ear antennas. Remember when we were kids? Yeah, I was a kid.

If you put the right angle, the body will use that to unblock the point. That's what they do. So what I'm trying. The. The whole point premise is Use the right angle for a practitioner. Press around your. If you want to use self acupressure. But the whole goal is to open up the fascia so the Qi, the electricity runs right down the highway. That's all it is. I'm just trying to unblock the system. That's all it is.

So this brings me to. If this is done wrong, it can actually be harmful. So if you're just going to go to some like little. I'm just like the, the mom and pop. Like reflexology stop, you know, and they're like, we're doing reflexology to open up your Qi. If they're not doing this at the correct angle, could that be harmful?

It possibly could. And I know knock anybody does reflexology, but I know like, exactly. If you. This is another thing. If they do at the right angle the wrong vector and they torque. I hope that's the right word. Torque the fascia in the wrong way. Like literally press and they're trying to open, but they twist it. That can affect the way the meridian flows. So you have to be very careful. The practitioner you go to because you, you know, like when people come to us and like, I love deep tissue, I love getting somebody getting eating in there. I said reflexology the same way. But the, the issue we have to be careful of with reflexology and any practitioner, you know, acupuncture is included, is that if you, if you overwork the point and the fascia, you can create little torques and twists. And that can sometimes, if you're not monitoring the system correctly, it'll allow too much energy to flow through. And you don't want that. Like, it'll make you feel sick. Like you feel like you gotta throw up. You feel like, oh, I gotta go diarrhea. So always find. I truly mean this. Find a good practitioner that you trust and knows your body really well that is willing to investigate. Yeah.

Okay, that makes sense. Okay, so you. This is interesting about the emotional thing too. So when you're saying that emotions. I want to understand this. I hear that a lot like emotions are affecting things. In Chinese medicine, when you say emotions are affecting things, is it as simple as opening it up through these pressure points or do you suggest additional work? And like, how does that work? Is it. Is this like great question?

Yeah, I, I'm with you because I know we talked about mindset and about belief systems and I am 100% on board with you. You have to create a new path. You have to create a new neurology.

Okay.

A program and I always associate it like an old iPhone. This is my horrible analogy, Natalie, so don't get mad at me, okay? But I always say that if I had my phone and for some reason I had a program belief that's an old app that's running in the background, it's going to keep pulling my battery and I didn't swipe it off. Okay?

Yep.

So I'm with you. You need to create a new momentum. So you'd have to swipe the old one off. I do believe that acupuncture and techniques that are emotional based techniques that use acupuncture can help you swipe them off. Can help you swipe them off. But you yourself, like you said, you have to create the new program. You have to create new. Like I'm going to do this in my life, I'm going to go this far. But I'm saying that acupuncture helps you swipe off the old program. It'll actually do this. This is cool. Hope I can explain this really well. So let's say for me personally, if I have and I've had bladder issues and because my dad had them, okay. And that would tell me through the acupuncture system that there is a fear that I will not get ahead. I do not like to stay stagnant. Like urine in the bladder. You don't want to stay stagnant. So it happens psychologically and physically. And so you start noticing, well, I'm getting up more in the middle of the night to go pee. Right.

Okay.

Now I use acupuncture and acupressure to fix those bladder meridians. A I stop urinating as much, probably like down to one time, and I'm pretty impressed. I mean, sometimes I actually get impressed with it. I'm like, wow, that stuff does work. I've been doing it for 20 years. Right. But the other thing is I will start having dreams of fearful trauma issues in my brain. And I do not know why it happens. But the beautiful thing is I notice that I'm not as jumpy or anxious. So you definitely. It does allow that organ to nurture, to heal. And that will help ease the emotion. It will help it release so you can actually get rid of the emotion.

Oh, that's cool. Okay. I've never understood this. I just knew when I've done acupuncture, not that many times. I've done it a few times over my years and I noticed I would feel better after, but I never understood why. So now you're helping me understand why this is cool. I never put this together.

It true. Okay. For if it's going to be really. I hope. I want to make it so simple. Just like going to your. Your wall switch and you flip the switch on and all you're doing is connecting a breaker. Like you're just allowing the electricity to flow through. That's all you're doing. You're just flipping the switches on. That's what we're trying to do.

Okay.

Everything works together, like synergistically. I. I loved. I can keep going out emotions, but I know.

Yeah.

No, I don't want to take any away from. Yeah.

Okay. I'm gonna shift it a little bit. We might come back to that. But I want to understand menopause from the perspective of Eastern medicine. Like, how do they. And I know this is a really big question here, but this is important. And the reason I'm. This is. This is my space being in menopause. Right. And this is. A lot of my audience is perimenopause, menopause or post menopause. And we're kind of. We get told two camps. Either deal with it. You're. You're aging. Like, accept it. And then people are like feeling unheard. Or it's like you do hormone replacement and that's. That's your only answer. Like, there's these two. And I know those are really black and white camps, but this is like, these are two camps that we. I find women falling into. And. And I'm definitely a fan of hrt, so I'm not. I'm not knocking that at all. I'm a huge fan of. But there's gotta be a middle ground. There's some people that choose not to do hrt. They can't do it for whatever reason. They can't. Whatever reason. There's gotta be a middle ground. And what gravitated me towards this question with you is it's my understanding that Eastern medicine views aging and menopause a little bit different than Western. So I want to get your thoughts around that first and then I want to get how you navigate this with women coming in, struggling with us.

It is. There is even some differing views in Chinese medicine, but they do view it differently, in my opinion, than the Western medicine world, where we're always trying to find every way to fight the system, if that's the way to put it. Like, I need to make sure that I stay young. Chinese medicine is. Sounds pretty cliche. It's always to try to make sure every organ is balanced to its optimum. Efficiency during your age. So it's not necessarily like, how can I keep getting younger? It's like, how can I age gracefully? How can I take the information and properly, you know, distribute all the energy properly? So when patients come in and they go through menopause, trust me, I've had a lot of patients that have come through perimenopause menopause and they're having hot flashes. My first response, and everybody's listening to them who've asked me this question is, what do you try to do? Do you try to stop them? What I have found is that whenever I have a patient with menopause, if I work on the organs that help clean out excess estrogens and help clean out any extra progesterone, their hot flashes will cease. So the, the aspect I come from is not to tell anybody. Don't do hormone replacement.

Yep.

My aspect is strengthen the liver and the kidneys so that you can flush any excess hormones out that are not needed. So that's that how I come into play. Like. So that's what Chinese medicine progressively would be. We're not, you know, because sometimes we get this. There's a realm where they think that if we're alternative medicine that, like, we're never going to tell anybody to go get, you know, hormone replacement therapy. And I'm like, right. There are some individuals, this is, this is not sound harsh to have those who have to do it. The. There are certain cells in the body that may have been injured, that may have had trauma, that may have aged to a point or doesn't have enough chi to actually produce the hormones efficiently and reverse and remove them, and that's understandable. So you may have outside help, and that's okay. My, my theory and what I've seen in my practice is if I know a person needs more estrogen or E3 or if they needed more progesterone, I then find out what organs are really needed to help remove any of the excess waste that comes from it.

Okay.

And it works beautifully. That's why I'm saying, like, the middle ground is where east meets West. That's why I always say east meets West. There has to be a conglomerate. I always thought that'd be so cool. We have a midwife clinic right across the hall and they do hormone therapy. And then I love it that they'll send people back and forth and they're like, well, what organ can I help clean up? You can clean up to help this patient with their post postpartum. And that's really encouraging to me because I'll see the report and I'm like, this, this is what we need to do. When you clean up their liver.

Okay.

That's where the middle ground needs to play. So when menopause comes, I don't see it as a bad thing. I just say it's the natural tendency. Now, if they're in early menopause, if they go early, yep. I will say I look at their blood report, I make sure they get their blood report. But more, nine times out of 10, I would tell you this, that person's had some injury up in the liver processing area, and there's a connection to the ovary. So there's usually ovary infections that's not been identified, maybe in the uterus, and there's also liver infections. And so usually they'll go early in the. Because I've had patients, when we cleaned them out, they were already in menopause. I cannot tell you, Natalie, how many times I've done this and mad at me, they'd come in and go, I didn't have a beard. And now again, why? It's like, because they had so much yeast and parasites and you know, as well as I did clean them out, the liver's like, oh, I can start doing what I'm supposed to do now. And that's a lot. Yeah.

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So, so one of the things that you're saying is that if you are, are early getting symptoms, so you are, you're like kind of premature getting symptoms for perimenopause or menopause. This could be a big contributing factor that we could slow that, we could slow that progression down by, by opening this up. Which makes sense as, as you're explaining acupuncture, I'm thinking of like a kink toes. Yeah, and a kink toes. The acupuncture would be unkinking it really like that would be. But everything else would be, oh well, we'll just, just put, add a few more hoses. So now we got like 10 hoses that are kinked. So we're still getting the same amount of water, but it's operating slow at each of the things or great. Or let's just cut it off and do repair it like so you're just saying no, let's just unkink it and move things along.

Is that, that's exactly right. Because, because it's such a. I'm gonna use that now. Don't, don't be mad if I use that.

No, I love it.

Seriously, like you unkink the hose because it truly what you're finding is the kinks in the hose. Like you and I talked about your belief systems and I'm not fearing away from the hormones, but your belief systems or a trauma they say in Chinese medicine in the past could create a program like an app that's running and you have to modify your physical body, your hormones, your biochemistry to handle the trauma. So that could like let's say I don't want to say, like, that sexual trauma or they have some kind of trauma to their ovaries and they have a shift in their programming. And that when that shift happens, it creates many little blockages along the way because that belief system's telling the ovary you're injured, injured. And so does that make sense? So, yeah, little kinks occur in the system. And all we have to do is not saying we can get rid of the trauma, but we. When we unkink, like you just said, it really is a matter of us trying to find out if there's emotional programs that are running in the organ. That's what, in my opinion, Chinese medicine is. And I'm not saying that everybody has hormones or perimenopause. You go out and try to find out their emotions. I'm just saying. And not saying it's all sexual trauma. Not at all. I'm just saying that there is traumas that could be associated with organs, and it is the job of the practitioner to investigate, in my opinion.

Wow. Okay, so now what about the woman that is. Is like, they're actually. It's. It's on time. They're perimenopause or their menopause. Like, they have. It's not because it's early happening. It's just normal part of life. This is like, this is your time. This is what's happening, and they're experiencing things. How is that looked at with acupuncture? And where do you. What do you encourage there?

Okay, I always encourage if you go into menopause and you have a night sweats, and I get it, we have night sweats, and some people have severe night sweats. I understand that. But I will say that a lot of my patients, thankfully, we've repaired certain organs to help them not have that much severe and sometimes actually help them get through menopause without having severe flashes at all. And one of the biggest thing is, like, if you're going through it and, you know it's natural, the biggest thing I would say is always check your thyroid. And I don't want to get too far into it, but the thyroid is part of what we call the fire element. It gives you a lot of energy. And what I have found mostly in most individuals that have, like, a really bad, you know, sweatshirt, is that their triple warmer. It's the thyroid. It's related to the thyroid and metabolic organs is always deficient. And that's because the person usually has weak kidneys. So I know this is a lot to take in, but I Will tell. Everybody's having, like, any normal. You have a normal.

So you're saying if they have low thyroid, it's weak kidneys. Is that. Am I hearing you correctly?

So, yeah, if you're going through. If you're going through like a menopause and you're feeling like it's on time, but I'm sweating a little bit more. I have a lot more night sweats than I want. Please check your thyroid and make sure that those levels are optimum. Check for hidden kidney infections, because the kidneys are the battery pack. They feed up into the fire element. They feed the heart. So I always say hidden kidney infections. UTIs.

So you can have. Can you have kidney? I always think of that. Like kidney and uti. I would imagine you'd end up in pain or. So how do you.

Not at all. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you, but it's like literally most of the time when people have uti, it's not just E. Coli. There's strep, there's staph, there's certain yeast, and they won't check for it. There's a great lab and shout out to them is microgen with a g micro gen dx. And they check for like over 50,000 bacteria. And in fact, I've had patients that have had really severe hormone issues. And from my indications, I like, I think this person has a bladder infection that's not accentuating the thyroid. Right. Helping them through their menopause. And then we go get it sent off and they'll have six different forms of strep. They went three times the normal doc, and they said, no, there's no uti. And then they come in and they go get one at this place, and it's like, oh, you have six forms of strep in your bladder. Because they don't test for them at the hospital.

No. And if they do have that, can you fix that or is that an antibiotic? Because, like. And how do you do that without it being an antibiotic, which then creates other health problems?

Yeah, you can do an antibiotic if you want, but I love nature's antibiotic. I love golden thread. It's called Chinese coptis. So golden thread is amazing. And what is that? Golden thread is called Chinese coptis. It's a beautiful flowering plant. And it's what Chinese medicine they use is like, almost. It's Nate. It's nature's antibiotic. Basically. It will kill viral or it's shown to really handle viruses, yeast, mold, bacteria, parasites.

Can people just take that as like precautionary.

And I have had, I've had patients that have taken that. Always talk with your primary care doctor if you have any questions. I mean, I'm all about that, but I've even had some that have taken it with their antibiotics because it's such a good, good cleanser. So. And some of it's such a good laxative because it kills so much. I've had people that tell me like, I'm never getting off this because I'm like, no, you can't take it forever.

But it's something you still cycle.

Still. I can cycle there. There are times when I've had patients on it for almost six to eight months.

Really?

There's another one. I say the two top though, Natalie be Malia, which is Neem. Neem has always thought about just like spraying plants to help kill off mold. But Neem, it's an ayurvedic herb. It is beautiful for killing off all infections. So in my opinion, I would say search for the bladder infection if you know.

And how do you search for it?

That's why I get a Euro key. So I would tell everybody out there, there's a, there's a test called Euro, like urinalysis, Euro key by micro gen dx.

And then anyone get that or they get that. Okay.

Then you get their doctors, but they need like a. I don't know if that. Now they think they changed the word. Like most people can just order it, but they may have physicians. Maybe I, most of my people have been able to call and get it maybe because they know me, but I, but it's one of those labs down in Lubbock, Texas, I believe.

Okay.

Really impressed. And so if the thyroid gets low and it's working not at 100, they'll have the night sweats. And then I say this, like, just like you were talking about liver congestion. When even if it's normal, always make sure you know your liver levels like your methylation. That's.

Yep.

I, I'm all about that. I'm all about doing gene testing for mthfr.

Yep.

And in Chinese medicine, I just clean out the liver. So if you're going to go, you're in menopause, go to the Chinese medicine practitioner and say, I need my kidneys, my liver and my triple warmer cleaned out. And those three, I'm telling you, have made tremendous steps for my patients. And I mean, the first patient I treated though, Natalie was like my mom, she was going through, she's like. And she's A little Korean lady, I'm sweating. And I was like, oh man. And then I found such bad bladder infections in her. And we started using herbs and stuff like the ones we mentioned. We cleaned it up and she's like, they called up so upsell means there's no more. I was like, mom, how they are? She goes, so no more. And that was in a few weeks.

Wait, this is huge. Because, okay, I'm, I'm having lots of aha moments right now because one of the very common things I see in menopause with women in my communities is literally everything you, you listed back, lower back pain, low thyroid, liver numbers. So now I'm like, wait a minute. Like, wait a minute. Have we been missing this whole step here with. Because we're thinking, they're thinking, we've always, we all know what a UTI is, but you're, we're waiting until you have to pee every five seconds you're in pain or there's like, right. But I had no idea that there could be these underlying smaller infections that are linked to all of that. And if I'm hearing you correctly, all those things that we're thinking are just part of menopause, like the low thyroid, the back pain, the liver congestion actually could be the cause of the symptoms we're feeling. That's just, this is like mind boggling right now.

And it is nothing like all the medicine, Chinese medicine practitioner listening today. They're like, oh yeah, we, yeah, that's, that's it.

This is easy to them, but to us, we're like, what?

Truly, I'm just, to me, when I found out though, that we talked about like, you know, UTIs or you don't want to wait because that's exactly right. Your body's so good and intelligent at keeping all the pain signals as low as it can throughout your life. It'll push it off, it'll push away in your brain. But then like you said, I'm peeing all the time because these ladies in menopause are like, I have to pee every, like there's a, there's an infection. No, I got an, I got a test. No, there's an infection. It's just they're not testing for the right, right proteins of the infections. And when you start really investigating. And that's why I, I've been wanting my membership and my website, trying to get in touch more and more of these labs. I use them to really have like a good system of just testing. But you're right, this is in my Opinion I've seen with every person that's come in with menopause and they the low thyroid. And I want to explain this to everybody. When your body, you're just imagine this. It sounds really woo woo. But remember, they go talk about going out and ground. Grounding is because Chinese medicine, which by.

The way, grounding means barefoot on grass.

For those barefoot on grass, you're getting the earth's ions, you're exchanging positive, exchanging toxins basically. Okay, but the, the biggest point of that is that in your feet. If you guys can imagine at the ball of your feet, there's one point called a kidney one. And what happens is your body draws a lot of qi, a lot of electric ions up through your feet, up to your kidneys. And this is the point. The kidneys act like batteries, like literally battery packs. If you have an infection in the kidneys or the urinary bladder system, it will make your kidneys very weak. And the point of it is it has to shoot that energy into your spine, into your bones, right? At L2, L3. That's why everybody has a kidney. And bladder infection will have tight hip flexors. Tight low back. At L2 L3, if you watch everything, I'm convinced.

Maybe I'm a hyper. I'm convinced I have this problem.

I'm telling you, I have tight hip flexors. I can never get them stretched. I. Why? Because at L2, lumbar 2, the kidneys sit. The electricity is trying to get up to them. They're sick or they're infected and it turns off the nerves in that part of the spine. And you're like, God, I can't even stretch my hip flexors anymore. And you can do all the stretching in the world you want. You do all the exercise, you're not going to get them undone. And then the kicker is the chi goes into your spine, your vertebra, your bones, and goes up and down your spine. So this. But that helps two things. In menopause, healthy kidneys produce erythropoietin hormone, which signals to your bone marrow to create red blood cells. So you have healthy bone marrow. And it actually will help strengthen bones, kidneys, always associated with bones and Chinese medicine. So you have weak kidneys, you have weak bones, so you've osteoporosis. And your bones will make you do what? You'll have cold bones. So you have everybody. They're like, my hands, my feet are super chilly. Why? Because the kidneys are weak and they help you produce more red blood cells in Your bone marrow. So if you have stronger kidneys, you'll have warmer blood flow. And I'm telling you, like you, you turn on the kidneys and that qi goes up and stop being stuck at the kidneys. It'll go up into the throat, it'll jump into the thyroid, and the thyroid will be happy and you could be like, ah, more energy. This is gonna be great.

Are you guys, are you guys connecting the dots here like I am or am I? I don't know if I'm the only one having aha moments here. But like, because. Because I think we've all heard the friend that went to acupuncture and they're like, oh, acupuncture fixed my. We didn't understand. But I'm starting to understand what you're saying now. It's going to the root, root, root, root, root, and undoing the kink and looking at the thing that we haven't been looking at. And I'll tell you, like, this might be why some people with their low thyroid are saying, but they're taking thyroid medication, but it's not changing anything because we haven't actually fixed the problem.

That's right. Because the thyroid, I mean, my mom had my hyperthyroid. The reason her thyroid got worn out was because her kidney, chi or kidney was so fatigued from infections and her bladder was. It wasn't allowing the energy to get up into the, like up into the fire element. Like basically into the heart and metabolically too. In western medicine, if you have an infection that's low lying and you not finding it. Yeah, your body do. It'll go into a fight or flight kind of situation and your thyroid hormone will be producing thyroid hormone consistently all the time. Done.

Right.

Your body to go fight something. But you're like. But the body knows. It's like it's in the bladder. It's down in the bladder and. But consciously we're not thinking that we know what it is. It's like we don't even know we're in fight or flight. No, it's like my thyroid's screwed up. I was like, this is where you and I talk about investigation. Why would the thyroid be off? Because it's pumping up harder. It's trying to sell your cells produce energy. Because I don't have energy. Right. He's trying to get. So I'm getting a little bit too excited.

No, no, this is good. This makes sense. But then this is making sense. Why when you just add like T3 or you're adding something you might not feel optimal because you really haven't fixed the problem. You're just adding more. And it's just. It's just like a temporary band aid, and it's just making you feel not. It's not helping.

It's not helping because it's basically giving you excess extra T3, which I think is valid. It's great. And your cells love it. Like, they're craving it, but it's because. Why? It's like your thyroid's worn out. Like, it's. It's tired. Like, I always say, you have to give it some love. But, Meryl, you talked about so well. You said, when I got sick, I looked at my gut health, and that's why I was so adamant about it, because you and I, if we have hidden infections in our gut, in our urinary system, and our lungs and our thyroid, and we'd work at it to clean them. Like your friend. Like, neither your friend's telling you, like, cleanse it out.

Those individuals always have such a better time with their hormonal shifts because they cleaned out and they took their body out of fight or flight. That's why I love just doing. I'm not saying do a cleanse every day. I am saying, like, really investigate and find out. Like, if you have little symptoms and you're thinking, what symptoms? Like, I'm peeing every night. That's not normal. You've got to get that.

No, but we're hearing that's because of lack of estrogen and vaginal wall thinning. And that's what we've been told. Why we're peeing all the time.

Yep. And that's. And not. There's some. I. I agree there's some things that there. That would say, yes, that's what happened. So I'm not knocking that. I think that does have a big issue. But to me, why your body would keep pushing urine out. Urine out is because there's infection hiding up in your kidneys. It's like, I don't want this here anymore. That's my opinion. And I.

Makes total sense.

And you know as well as I do, like, we believe in, like, innate intelligence. And I'm like, I've seen it. And not being cocky. I'm just saying in my patients, I mean, think 20 something, man. It's been a long time. Wow. But when over the years, you see that people, when you start cleaning them out, they will tell you the small hints. They're like, you know what? When I got rid of that kidney infection, I Stopped urinating and stuff, you know, like, hardly did that.

Yep.

I stopped being so fearful. Like, little things they pick up on in themselves because the kidney weakness means that they're fearful. They don't mean to be. They just feel like either. They feel they don't belong. They're feeling they stick out. They're not in their. Their group. Those little signs. Guys in menopause, I'm telling you, you think they're just little. Oh, this is just normal. Yes. There's a healthy way to do it. It. But I'm. I'm not saying I know everybody, but this is my angle at it. Yeah.

This is so bizarre to me because, like, everything you're saying here, connecting the dots, is the stuff that goes along with menopause. And it's like, I don't feel that this is talked about. This is really wild. Like, what we've heard is the opposite. Like, okay, you're in menopause, so now your thyroid's low, and you're gonna have back pain. You're gonna feel more inflammation, and you're gonna have liver congestion, and you're gonna have tight hip flexors, and you're gonna like, all this stuff, and you just, like, flipped it all the way around and you're like, no, all these things are making you feel this way. This is wild.

I. I mean, it's like. It's a. It's a different paradigm to think about it that way. But I always say, like, with my patients, like, let's go from both angles. Yes, the estrogens can do this and we can go that, but let's clean up. And I'm thankful. I'm just saying I have seen people that have had to reduce their estrogens and reduce things because they got their. These areas cleaned out. And I'm so. It's really, really cool, though. You know, I'm not saying I could.

I get what you're saying. You're not. You're not saying you can't do hormone replacement or any of that. You're saying you can, but why would you not want to just have everything work optimally? So, like, this. This makes sense. Like, this. Like, this doesn't hurt it. So, okay, so this, what you just said, is this, like, standard practice for somebody that does act, that is an acupuncturist or Chinese medicine? Or is this, like, your unique thing? Like, is this. Because I'm, like, hearing this for the first time. Is this your Dr. Chris Motley, these unique things? Or is this, like, a standard thing that we, we're just been missing.

I, I think I, I think that every Chinese medicine practitioner and every, you know, like maybe frequency medicine type individual probably has a, a grasp on it. I mean, I can't speak for everybody. I will say though.

Chinese medicine practitioners, some of them, I've seen that really great with like, you know, fertility. Yeah, I've heard that are really good because they know a lot about hormones. I'm not saying that they think it the same way I do of them probably do. I just think personally like I'm just a big patterns guy. Like I. Yeah, I hope that's not sound. I don't know if that's unique to me, but that's how I think about it. But I say most Chinese medicine practitioners, most all of them would all automatically know kidney weakness. Weak triple warmer. They know that, that totally know that.

What does that mean? Triple warmer.

Oh man. Triple warmer is the three gates. And what Chinese medicine would say is like when the kidneys hold the electricity right.

Okay.

Shoot into your spine, you have three gates that, that qi goes through three. So usually it's like upper which is like the heart, the lungs right here. And you'll have the stomach which is your digestion and your food and your adrenals right there. And your lower which is your testes, your ovaries. That's. Those are the three gates. So what they're saying is you want a lot of strong kidney qi so that, that you have a healthy heart and lungs, you have healthy digestion and you have healthy sex. Those are three ways like. And so got it. That's why watch this. Now ask all your patients this on their wrist, it's called Triple Warmer 5 and it's like little bones right here, like right in the middle. And you don't have to. But I'm saying ask them do you ever get sore wrist or like carpal tunnel? You watch A lot of them do have sore wrist. They can like when I do a push up or when I do. I was like triple warmer, I'm telling you. And that meriting goes up the arm and into the neck right by the thyroid. So I mean it's a lot to take in here.

No, this is good.

I'm sorry.

Now you said, you said something else that I want to. That you, you popped over and you said and I want. I picked up on it. You said frequency medicine. What does that mean? And is that like. Because homeopath, homeopathy would say frequency medicine. Is there parallels there?

Yes. I use, at the office, I use Tons of homeopathic. And I use the desk bio shout out to desk bio. They're a great brand, great company. They have really good brand. But I use a small biofeedback device I was taught by my mentor, Dr. Doughty. He's out in Wichita, Kansas. But he used. He created a biofeedback device that allows me to like, literally scan for frequencies.

Tell me what that means. Tell us what that means in English.

If the body is the electricity that's running through our bodies. Right. So you guys just imagine this. Close your eyes. Picture this. But you have electricity run through your body, and it's like wiring in your house. And all the electricity is flowing. It's good, but it emits. Emits a wave. And so it's a bio wave. It's like a. Literally a biofield around your body. So you do have like an aura. Some people say it's an aura, some people say, you know, it's like a realm around you. So there are some individuals and there are certain devices that can measure the frequency output coming from your body. That's what. And there's a lot of them out there. There's a lot in Europe.

No, like, I use a sleep one. Something for my sleep. I use like the soul tech for my sleep that does that.

Y.

So that's all I hear. Frequency. I just didn't. I don't fully understand it yet.

Totally. And now what we do is like, we just measure the frequencies and measure if the frequency coming off an organ. Sick. Okay. And then we find the homeopathic that actually can absorb the sickness out of the person, basically. And that's. And it works really well.

Homeopathy and acupuncture are kind of complimentary, I would imagine that.

I think they are. Totally. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So most acupuncturists, they understand or they learn homeopathy too. Is that accurate?

Not all of them.

No, no, not all of them.

No. I. I'm just a nerd. I just.

Okay.

Yeah. I try to learn more, but. Yeah, but not all of them, though.

Okay, so when you say frequency medicine, you mean you're testing the frequency on specific things and then matching that frequency to heal it? Is that.

That's exactly right. Because we have devices that can measure me. I told you, the points and such. You can measure those. The frequency of those points, and then you can then match it up to homeopathy therapy. Like, and you can find out which one would cure that blockage or that frequency. Yes.

Wow. Okay. So typical woman comes to you with Aging symptoms. So, Perry, I'm not talking perimenopause, menopause, post. They're. They're all the things. Like, they're like, I'm foggy headed. I'm like, I'm not sleeping. I'm hot flashes. I'm sweating. I'm hot, I'm cold. My. Now I'm telling my thyroid. So what's your process? Like, what is your. How do you. How do you work with somebody? Or like, how. What's the process there?

Okay, I'll try to. And Natalie, seriously, stop. Because I don't want to get like, too nerdy and get. Get lose a listener. I know how it is. I get. First thing I do is when they tell me they sweat off and on and they have brain fog. The first thing I usually go after is their constipation. If they are their poop or go check their colon and their liver. The first two things.

Got it.

The first two things. And then I find out if there's any infections that I believe that are in there. We start working on that. Because naturally, when you clean out the liver and colon, their liver's methylation. Right. Their methylation process works better. Their cholesterol and their hormones start to get eased up. They start to feel better, and they. Okay. Then I go to the kidneys. I find out the kidneys are sick. So right off the bat, when they're saying I'm sweating all the time, my brain fog. The reason their brain fog is usually coming up is because congested liver and congested colon and kidneys means congested lymph flow. And they're going to have sudden infection up in their head. So those three organs, I clear up. Then I check their sinuses in their head. I ask them strep, staph, mono, anything in the past, and they'll say, oh, I had it when I was a kid, and I don't think I have any more. I was like, no, if you never really try to clean it out, it's still. And it's pooping in your brain. That's why you get brain fog.

Wow.

And so you have to clean out those organs to allow the body to go tell the rest of the body go, hey, it's open. I can drain. And when you clean it out, they start draining their sinuses. I do a lot of spinal work along the points that are associated with the organs. Yeah. Get them pooping, whether it's using the magnesium. We talked about using magnesium, using good herbals to help clean that out. But when you get them to flush. That's the first step. And I hope that's not too much, guys. No, that's good. Good. But I always say I'm not telling everybody out there, go get, you know, a whole bunch of liver, you know, decongested. What I am saying is really look at the herbs to help clean out the liver and clean out the kidneys, and then really be really soft and gentle with it. And then after that, that's when I start doing some testing for, like, different nutrients, like, that they may need, like, minerals and vitamins. That's how I. I approach it. And it really does sell out pretty well, because after a while, Natalie, they start cleaning up all their. Their toxins, and they'll be like, you know what? After I got rid of that, such and such. This part naturally came back. Like, this healing. I don't sweat as much.

Right.

Like, I'm not. I don't have much brain fog. And so it's because now the body's energy is able to do what it wants to do, which is really amazing. Yeah.

Well, my mind is, like, completely blown. I feel like I'm like, how have I been on this planet 53 years, and I never looked at this or understood it? And it's not that I haven't seen practitioners. This. I just never. Nobody's ever explained it to me like, this. This is, like. This is making. Makes so much sense.

Oh, I'm telling you, I can't take any credit. I'm just. I learned from mentors like Dr. Doughty, and there's a Dr. Michael Leibowitz. Lebowitz. He's out of. He's out of Hawaii. And they. They were always adamant when they used to tell us about hormones because, you know, they're very, like, yeah, in their heart because they've had a lot of patients. They said, you just got to make sure that the doctors who do hormone therapy do their best. You know, that they're going to. But we can help by, like, cleaning out the. The. Cleaning out the system. And that really is. I mean, I'm thankful. I've seen a lot of people go to a lot of, you know, totally healing of the thyroid and. And. And the ovaries.

So what's your. And I'm asking your opinion now. Not. And I know you're gonna. Your tendency will probably be to be, like, not offending anyone or not like you're. You're being very, like, nice. Like, everyone has a place with what they teach. But, you know, I featured a lot of doctors on here that are very, very specific about hormone replacement. I've also featured a lot of experts very specific about thyroid replacement. What do you want my listeners to know about this approach, what you're talking about? And I want your opinion. Like, do you think we jump the gun too early with traditional thyroid and hormone treatments? Like, do you, like, I just real, I'm just really curious where you're training. Like, what, what your thought process is around.

Truly, Truly. And I, you know, you're right. I don't want to offend anybody. The doctors out there, they have their thoughts and they could disagree.

I, I, I'm giving you a pass there. No one's gonna be clear. I just really want your opinion.

Like, what would you, I'm with, okay, one aspect is this, okay, but I'm gonna preface this with this is that when you get to a point where your blood work's already showing it, then we know you've, you've gone really far. Like, okay, in that condition. So I have to keep that in mind. But I do believe that we do jump the gun in some ways when we do get these in these hormone levels that are off, off. And I wish that we would investigate minor infections, minor bacterial infections, minor viral infections in the body and go after those and clean those up. That's my opinion. I think we do go first because you, you and I know this, that remember, guys, the hormone systems is only reacting to, trying to help your body adapt to something going on internally. And, and I'm with you. I, I think it's, for instance, I've found, like, there's one called cytomegalovirus. You've heard of it before. Coxsackie virus, hand, foot and mouth. Those don't naturally go away, and they'll go into certain organs and they'll make those organs sick. You need to flush it out. And I just want everybody out there to listen. Is this that, I do believe that if you do have this going on, it's like, find like a Chinese medicine practitioner, a good, you know, kinesiologist, muscle tester, somebody that can go and investigate and work, work with your doctor to find out. But I'm, I think we do jump the gun, honestly, and I think we don't, I think we've pushed aside good herbals that could clean up a lot of infection. Because you know as well as I do, there's some docs out there that will say stuff like, oh, there's no, you know, people don't have parasites. And I'm like, yeah, I get pictures of Poop every single day, literally. And my. And I'm telling you now, I mean, like, literally. I'm so used to it. They're like, doc, does this look like a worm? I. I'm like, that's a worm. And I'm like, yeah. But anyway, that's my answer, though.

Yeah, that's wild. God, this is so fascinating here. Okay, y'. All. Okay, so Dr. Chris Motley, he's got a. Tell us about your podcast a little bit. How would you. I mean, it's so good. I mean, it's tell. How would you describe. Who is your podcast for? Is it for everyone? Is it for.

Yes, it's. I always say this. It's for everyone. And I just think it's Ancient Health.

By the way, you all.

Ancient Health podcast. And I just try to make it. I want a simple, easy format that just gives. Gives people that felt lost about health. I want to give these alternative thoughts and processes for you. Like the mother of three that doesn't know what to do when they go to the doctor. That's always my. My passion. So it's like, I want men and women to be able to go in and say, okay, use Ancient Health. Like, use ancient herbs, some minor supplements to help them along, and then give them things about their emotions. So we talk about emotions and how that. And that. How that programming can set your organs up to be not so healthy, sick. But what can we do to help bring them back? That's the whole thing of Makes sense cast.

Yeah. Yeah. Super informative. I like how you break things down. Simple. And you. It's. It's very helpful. Like, you're the first one who's really got me looking at this differently. I just literally never understood it before. Where do you want people to go find you other than obviously, your podcast, but where else are you most active? Where do you want them working? How can they find and work more with you? You.

Okay, Ancient Health podcast, but it's also Dr. Motley. It's all spelled out Dr. Motley spelled out because I couldn't get Dr. Motley, but you can go. But now. Now I got the website. You can go to doctormotley.com we got a new website up, which is great. I'm gonna make it easier and simpler at Dr. Motley on all the platforms, Facebook and Instagram. I do a lot on. On TikTok doing more, and that's where you can find me. And if that's where I'm at and if you guys like the info, just let me know and Hopefully I'll keep putting it out there, there.

And what I love about you is you're not like, this is the only way. You're very much the whole approach. You're like, there's a lot of different things we can look at a lot of different ways or a lot of different modalities. And you want people to consider this as, like, as the way to get the kink out. But you're not against, you're not, you're not saying this is the only way.

No, no, I, I, like, I, I could go through a story. I had. I had a ruptured ulcer one on 2017. And I. Modern medicine saved my life. So I'm not going to go and say you don't get a painkiller killer or get like, in surgery. I mean, no, I, I needed it and I'm thankful I had it. So I just want people to know that there are possibilities like you and I were talking about investigating that there are other things that could contribute to a diseased organ and in the mainstream, most of the time they're not going to discuss it because they just dismiss it. So that's my goal, is to get. Just inform them, like, hey, you can use both. Like, and I. And I know we got to sign off here, but I'll just say, I know, like, antibiotics can be not so helpful with the gut and such, but I know you've seen it too. I've had some patients come in and they had a really infection in the lungs. And I, I found it and I was like. And one time I had a patient, she had such bad lung as she kept having heart rate issues. But on my Chinese medicine practice, I said, something's in your lungs because the pathway keeps getting deficient. And so her whole family had rheumatoid arthritis. Everybody in her family, right? This is a kicker. And then finally she almost went to the hospital because she kept having this, these, this lung stuff. I said, you need to go get it checked. They finally, a great doctor finally took her to the center Disease, you know, doct doctor and found out that her lungs was filled with fungus, like this really weird fungus. And she came to me and she was like, oh, doctor, Dr. Motley. Like, they want me to take an antifungal. And they showed me the X ray. And I was like, you need to take the anti. Yeah. No, like, they put her on for a year. And some people say, I wouldn't do that. I'm like, as bad as it was when she started taking that her heart rate went right back to normal after after 40 something years and then her rheumatoid stuff started to go away.

That's wild.

And I'm just saying always investigate. Always find doctors that can good to work with our doctors. That's all.

My goal is so good. Thank you so much for being here today.

This was oh Natalie, so yo, you're so sweet. Thank you so much everybody. Thanks so much.

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