003: Behind the Scenes with Rachel and Nathan from Billion Dollar Creator

It's easy to fall into a trap as just a human.

Yes.

Pricing based on effort instead of pricing based on value. Exactly. All the leverage comes in pricing based on value.

Attention is power and creators harness it better than anyone else, but they're not using that attention to create the biggest impact possible and are vastly undermonetized. Hi, I'm Rachel Rogers. My co-host Nathan Barry and I believe you can be a billion-dollar creator. Sound impossible? Over the last 10 years, we followed each other on our own quest to build billion-dollar companies. We've studied creators and seen how entrepreneurs build traditional audiences and use them as a launching pad for a massive business. And it got us thinking, if it can happen for them, it can happen for us. And if it can happen for us, then why not you? Billion Dollar Creator is a show teaching creators how to capture attention and turn it into real wealth. We will deep dive into brands, celebrities, and entrepreneurs who have done it before and and show you how you can apply it to your business as an everyday creator. Join us weekly as we learn from both the wild successes and the missed opportunities, the grand gestures and the integral mistakes, and through that, help you become an expert at building your audience on your journey as a billion-dollar creator.

So I came back from sabbatical. I've been back for a week now. Yes, I am not productive. Like, yes, working effectively is a skill and that, that skill has perished. It is. I'm trying to bring it back, but like my attention span, super short, you know, like sitting down, staying focused. It's like, you know, why don't we read about airplanes instead? Why don't we— whatever else?

Like, that matches your tan because you look very tan right now. You do not look like a man who's been working at his computer, but, but that's real. It's when you go, it's just like, I say this to some of my team members sometimes with vacation, like, and friends of mine, when I go on vacation, it, I don't instantly go into vacation mode. Like, it's usually like a day or two that it takes to like ease out of thinking about my business nonstop, you know? And then by like day 3, I'm like, who cares? Nobody call me. Like, I don't care what happens, you know? Like, I'm free. And then it's the same thing. I think coming back, you have to like ease your way back into work mode. I think the first week you kind of just are like, what am I supposed to be doing again, you know?

Yeah.

Which is actually the point of the business. Like the point of the business is get to, is to get to a place where the CEO is essentially irrelevant, you know, and you work yourself out of a job slowly but surely. So I think that's good that you're not productive. It's a good sign. Nothing's falling apart and you're not productive. These are good things.

Well, the thing is I want to be productive on things that are not vital for like business operations. You know, what I didn't expect is like the inability to just sit down and crank something out. Like, I've always had that, you know? So we're like, we're going back and forth on the podcast and in the doc I'm like working on stuff and it took me forever. I wrote like, what, 20 sentences back to you? Took me an hour, you know?

Well, there's also thinking that's part of that. Yeah.

I like how you're trying to give me credit for all of this stuff and I'm just trying to tell you like, look, Rachel, I'm just not productive anymore. Who you've signed up to start a podcast with.

I was gonna ask you what your DISC is. I'm so interested about like your StrengthsFinders, DISC, Kolbe, like, because you seem like someone who is like, I would guess, like high C on DISC, which is like detail-oriented, very good at execution, you know. And like, that's not my strength. No, no. Like, working a to-do list is a lot of effort for me. It's not like, oh, I can't wait to just tackle that to-do list. I'm better at like talking, writing. Once I sit down and actually clear the space, I can do writing for a long period of time. But like talking, presenting, talking, managing people, like that kind of thing, talking to groups in general is probably where what my superpower is more than anything else. Like working a to-do list is painful.

So I'm pretty good at working to-do lists. I haven't done the DiSC assessment in like 14 years or something.

Wow, but I didn't even know it existed 14 years ago. I only took it like—

I worked for a company, my first and last real job, um, was working for a software startup, uh, and one thing that they did is they made a product that would take your DiSC scores and like give you a They basically took all these videos breaking down all the possible combinations and they took your DISC score and like made you this personalized video playlist, like explaining your score back to you.

Yes.

And that was in 2009. Yeah. Wow. I nailed it with the 14 years. That was actually, that was actually correct.

I'm sure things have changed, you know, since then, like leading a company. I think, I think your personality actually shifts. A little bit like when you are in charge of managing a lot of people and have to give direction, like getting people to understand that getting success with your own actions is so easy, right? But when you have to make success happen through other people, you know what I mean? This is why we understand why, like, the coaches on the sidelines at football games are screaming because it's like they know what to do, but they're not out there to do it. So they have to communicate it, you know, at the right time in the right way so that it's well received and understood so that the other person can go do it. And it's like, God, I just want to do it myself. But you literally can't because the business gets too big and it's not possible. So, yes, it gets complicated.

It's, it's very complicated. But, you know, that's what we'll talk about on this podcast, which, by the way, I think we've just been doing the podcast for a while now.

So, yes, let's just go with it.

You know, we're just going with it.

So we should tell people why, why are we doing this, you know? Yeah, we should ask ourselves, why are we doing this? Why are we doing more things? Why are we adding things to our to-do list.

Yeah, the to-do list that you don't want to—

that you don't want to do. Unless it's an appointment where I'm showing up to communicate, which actually for the podcast—

that's what this is.

Yes.

No, you're showing off to— showing up to goof off about business. That's mostly what we're here for.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah. Okay, the show. Uh, let's see, why did I— so I texted you and said, Rachel, let's do a show together. The general idea is we have all these conversations between you and I, with our other friends, you know, like behind the scenes at conferences and most people don't get insight into that. And so I just think we can share that with everyone. We can get into this, but we have a bit of a unique perspective from both of us running bootstrapped companies, scaling to a pretty meaningful size. And then we also have inside looks into so many other businesses.

Yes.

Both through who we, you know, coach or advise formally or informally, the businesses we've invested in, you know, like in your community, you get to see all kinds of stuff. And then I have behind a behind the scenes look into, you know, tens of thousands of creators and their business.

Yes. Both, you know, who's lying, who's lying about the size of their newsletter, which I love.

Yeah, exactly. There are times This is actually someone I won't name names, but they were not using ConvertKit and they weren't— hadn't switched over from another tool, but we had had conversations with them and talked about switching. So I knew exactly how big their other audience was. And it's just all these claims on social where I'm like, that's not true. And I like looked really carefully and like at their exact phrasing, it was one of those things that could be like, it was technically true the way that they had phrased, like, you know, one of those like reaches millions of people, but The way it had been phrased was definitely intended to make you think that their email audience was however big it was. Yeah, it was like, I've seen inside your Mailchimp account. I can tell you, I know for sure. Now, of course, I just laughed and kept scrolling and then made a mental note to like, okay, if that person tells me something like discount it, like discount for accuracy, 20%, you know, because exactly, I don't think it's trustworthy. But yes, there's there's actually not as much shadiness in this space as I, as I think you might expect.

Yes, exactly. That's the interesting thing. I've heard that from someone who ran software for personal finance, and so he could see a lot of people's personal finance stuff. And he was saying that people are not— like, people, there's way much smaller percentage of people who are shady than you would expect. So there's some shady folks out there, but Maybe not everybody, even not even the majority, you know, like most people just tell the truth or just don't mention it, you know, just don't talk about it. But I hope, I hope we're getting to a place in the world where we're moving past the, like, all of these different measuring sticks, you know, that we use to say, like, I'm better than you because I have 30,000 people on my list and you have 15,000, you know. It's like, who cares, right? Because we're starting to get the nuance of it that, like, but do click, right? Like, do you actually have engagement? There's so much more that matters than just numbers.

I think it's actually what it turns into is less about like someone saying like, I'm better than you or something like that. And really what we do to ourselves where we're like, oh, I put in this much effort and I'm not getting anywhere. And she put in what I perceive to be a quarter of the effort and is getting 10 times the results and I suck and maybe I should quit and whatever else. And so No one out there is saying, "I'm better than you." I think a lot of creators are self-sabotaging and feeling frustrated because they're comparing to someone else who's getting more. It's sort of an inverse. You expect someone's like, "Oh, maybe they're looking down on me because they're way more successful." It's like, first, they're not even thinking about you. And then second, it's really about the stories that you tell yourself instead of the reverse.

I agree. I completely agree with that. Yes. Okay. But we were talking about why we're doing this podcast. Yeah. Okay.

So giving people an inside look in conversations, I think another thing, there's all these things that I want to speculate on of like, so maybe one side is discussed, like what's going on in the industry, the news, not like politics, the election. I don't, I don't care about that, but what I'm thinking about is like what's changing. you know, in algorithms and industries and what's working and all that. But then another side is sort of speculating on like, what if different people adopted different business models? Or if we ran this creator's business, what would we do?

Yes.

If someone else ran one of our businesses, what would they do?

Yes.

And then also giving this inside look into, you know, what's happening. And, and, uh, yeah, so that's one thing that I'm excited to talk about. What, what are some other things that you would want to cover on the show that we're just dreaming up right now?

Yes. Well, I think it's— I mean, I'm excited to have some guests on the show. It's not going to be every week, but I think it'll be cool to unpack people's different business models and what's working for them and showcasing a diversity of entrepreneurs so people can see people of all different industries, identities, experiences. And what's happening for them. Because I think, like you said, we make up stories like, oh, for me in my situation or with my experience or in my industry, it's not possible. So I think showing people what's possible, right? And in a variety of ways, it takes away our, you know, excuses that there's a ceiling, right? Like, because that's a made-up thing. There is no ceiling. You get to just decide where it is and you get to keep moving it if you want to. So I'm interested in that. And then I think it's kind of like what you're saying. I guess it's less so speculation and more like I just have opinions and things to say.

No, Rachel, you have opinions? I, I've not seen that side of you.

I know, I'm very quiet. People don't expect me to express strong feelings. But yes, I have opinions about things that I'm excited to like talk about that and debate that, right? Like that's always fun and interesting. And also just to bring up like different scenarios like things that happen in business and to, you know, debate it. You know, those— that's always interesting. It's still, I guess, the lawyer in me that still enjoys debate and arguments. Okay.

So on that note, you know, we're going to have audiences kind of like we both have well-established audiences. They're going to be colliding together with this, this show. You brought up the fact that, you know, there's the lawyer in you.

Yes.

Let's, let's cover a little bit about that background.

Yes.

Yeah. Where are you from? Like, where did you grow up and how did you become a lawyer? And then what made you move away from that world?

Yes. So I grew up in Queens, New York, and I always wanted to be a lawyer since I was like 8 years old and just saw people like I saw my mom would watch crime dramas, which I am now obsessed with. Like, that's my guilty pleasure. But she would always watch crime dramas and I— or courtroom dramas. And there was always like some lawyer involved representing like the little guy. And I loved that. And I wanted to be that lawyer, you know, defending the person and justice and all of that. So that was like my very, you know, 8-year-old view of being an attorney. So that's why I decided I was going to go to law school literally at that young age and then just went the whole path. And there were times where I was like, am I still going to do this in college? But I did. And I went to law school and then started my own practice because I graduated during the recession. So that's— I became an entrepreneur just because of the recession. Otherwise, I would have never been an entrepreneur. I was never interested in having my own business, like, at all. I just wanted to help people, really. And I was going to work at nonprofits, and my sister was like, you're going— you're not going to make any money. How are you ever going to pay off these loans? So, yes. So that's— that's where I'm from. That's my background. And then I just practiced law for a while and then discovered through running a business that I was good at it. Like shockingly, I was good at getting clients. I was good at selling and, you know, managing a team. Well, I was bad at it first and then I got good at it, you know, over time. But I loved all of that. Like the running of the business, I loved more than practicing law. So, and then eventually people just started asking for business advice because my business was growing. My clients would ask me for business advice. And so a friend of mine was like, you should probably charge for that. So I did. So that's what led me to entrepreneurship. So now I'm the CEO of Hello7. Which is a company that's focused on providing business coaching and training and community to diverse entrepreneurs and helping them scale their business to 7 figures. I also wrote a book called We Should All Be Millionaires. And, you know, just a very subtle opinion, very subtle title. That's me. Very subtle. I understand. I have 50, 11 children, a husband, and Yeah, that's it. That's, that's, that's it. That's a quick, quick intro to me.

I was realizing, I think the first time I came across your work was from my sister-in-law who— oh, I don't know what year this would have been, more than 7, 6 or 7 years ago probably. My sister-in-law, who's a photographer, was— I think she bought your Business Bodyguard contract.

Oh yes, Small Business Bodyguard.

Yeah, yeah. So you had put together and You can correct everything that I say wrong in a second, but you'd put together this, this package of like all the contracts that you need explaining what they are. Here's how to understand.

That's my first digital product.

Yeah. Okay. So when did you launch that and how did that come to be?

That was 2013. And it was really because I would talk to all of these attorneys. Well, first of all, it was two things. One, I had two babies back to back, so they were 19 months apart and I got very busy very quickly, you know? So I was like, how can I make money? Without being on the phone with clients or without doing legal work? Because it's like kind of like you just, you work for the money, right? Like you got to put in hours to make money. And so I was like, I'm already maxing out on my hours, but I'm not making that much income, you know? So I wanted to figure that piece out. And then I would talk to just a lot of entrepreneurs who needed me but couldn't afford me. So I was like, why don't I just package it all up? So I wrote like this 200-page guide. To like, you know, choosing the right business entity, contracts, copyrights, trademarks, like all of that stuff. And then included templates that I would actually use in my law practice. So yeah, it was a big hit. We made a lot of money from that. That product made me $1 million over 3 years from 2013 to 2016, '17. And then I stopped selling it. But yeah, it made some good money.

I love it. What's crazy is thinking about like that being your first transition from trading time for money to like having the leverage of disconnecting those two things. And then you're like, oh, from there too. $1 million in 3 years is pretty epic.

Yes. And then also it created all this visibility for my practice. So I got a ton of new clients in the business as well. So I wound up hiring some attorneys to work for me and building the team in my law practice before I discovered I actually hate practicing law and don't ever want to do it again. So. Yes.

So now you've got a phenomenal business doing 8 figures a year in revenue and.

Yes.

We got some, some big things planned and we'll talk about all of that. I guess I'll give the high level what I do. So actually, so 2013 is an interesting year because that's the year that I started ConvertKit.

So that's funny.

That was a pivotal year for both of us. We didn't know each other at the time, right? But it was a pivotal year.

Actually, I think I did know of you because you would write about—

you had a great blog and you'd write about ebooks and design and all of that. Yeah.

Exactly. And that's what I was like deep diving on and trying to learn, you know, like on-time learning so that I could immediately use it to create this digital product. So I did know of you and I definitely followed your blog back then, but you talked about a lot of technical stuff and like my tech is not my thing. And so, because I feel like you had an ebook on something related to like coding or design or development. Yes, exactly. Which I probably should have read because that would probably be useful to me in my business now. But yeah, so Also, one thing I will say about you is I think you're a very clear and concise writer, and that is so rare. Like, I— in law school, they drill into your brain that you have, like, word counts when you write legal briefs. You have to be very clear. You have to be very persuasive in a short period of time. And this is your set of facts, and you got to tell the story. And you don't get— it could be a complicated story. You don't get more words. So you have to learn how to be really concise and spin an argument. And so I— and we— they would literally, like, you'd write something and they'd make you go through it, and word by word, you just, like, remove words you don't need. Like, you don't need to say 'about' there, and you'd cross it out and go line by line, right? And so you just become such a good writer in law school. And I feel like you write as if you went to law school. I think you write very clearly, very concisely. You make good arguments. So that's— that's one of the reasons I liked your blog. I still read your blog.

Yes, I need to write for it a little more often than I do, but But yeah, I love writing. And my favorite thing to write about is something that I don't yet understand, where like I can observe things in the world and I think it works a certain way. And but I can't quite tell you why. I give you 25 examples.

Yes.

But like, okay, what's the underlying principles behind it? Why do those examples work? And if I can't quite explain it to you, then that really is— it's basically a combination of something I care about. And like feel like I understand but then can't teach it. And so that proves to me that I don't understand it. And then I like dive in and write, you know, a 3 or 4,000-word essay that I do exactly what you're talking about, where I'm cutting out everything that I think doesn't like flow into it well. And it still ends up long, but it's like almost this mini ebook trying to explain something. So yes, I've got, I guess, 3 of them now. I'm trying to think. The Ladders of Wealth Creation was the first one that I did. I'm like, why do some people make money and others don't? What are the skills that go into this?

I'm like, that is the question.

I think I have to explain this.

Yes, that is the question. Like, I love that. And that article was so good. And, and, you know, it was good because it created all this conversation on social media, which is always what you want when you write something.

Yeah. And it's still— I see people like sharing it. I mean, I wrote it 4 years ago or more and, wow, you know, it gets shared all the time and, you know, has lots of traffic coming back to it and So that one's fun. The other ones are The Billion Dollar Creator. All of these we'll dive into on the show in detail. And then I did one on creator flywheels recently where it's basically like, yeah, how can I take this thing and fully explain it? So that's what I love to write about is something that I'm personally obsessed with and think I understand, but can't quite explain. And then it's like, all right, I'm going to write on the topic and research it until I can have a 3,000-word treatise on it that people are like, oh, that is the definitive answer to like how this works.

Yes. I think we just made it clear to everyone this show is going to be pretty nerdy, but in a good way.

No, with us? We have a software designer and developer and a lawyer who are here to talk business. Yeah, it'll be a little bit nerdy. But I mean, that's the inside baseball look. And I think that'll be fun to give people is like, this is what actually goes on behind the scenes.

Yes.

You're not going to get the, like, you know, you just need to really envision that success and be in your cold plunge. And I don't know what else people say.

Oh my God, the cold plunging. So much cold plunging. I was talking to an entrepreneur recently about like something that they were selling for $10 million, right? Like this beautifully designed thing. And, you know, they have a very successful, like probably 9-figure business if I had to guess. And like, he was like expressing nervousness about like being analyzed and whether somebody would like this thing. And I was just like, oh my God, it just stays the same. Like those feelings don't go away whether you're making 6 figures, 7 figures, 8 figures, 9 figures. It's the same journey. It's just on a new level, you know? And you still get nervous about what you're creating and putting out the stuff in the world. And you still have— you have wins and you still have misses. You know, you have things that you launch or that you try that you're like, well, that didn't work. I think people think that it's just like this rare air and it's just nonstop winning and just swimming through wealth like Scrooge McDuck, right? And it's just— no, it's just pretty regular, but with more resources, you know, which is nice.

Yeah. There was a conversation, or two conversations around money, which money is something we'll talk about a lot on the show because not enough people talk about it, or they do it in a way that's either performative I like people go between either performative talking about money or like secret and opaque.

Like, you can't— not useful, basically.

Neither end is useful. And what I want to do is just have like candid and transparent conversations about money. And one of those, there's two that I think of where people kind of gave me very similar advice that, that was just that candid feedback. And one of them was ConvertKit was building up like our cash balances and we got to the point that we had $1 million in the bank and like on one hand is a huge amount of money. On the other hand, it was like 4 months of expenses, you know?

Right, right.

And I was asking the SaaS, like Slack group, there's like 20 software founders in there. Like, what do you do? There's $1 million in this bank account. Like, what should I be doing? How should I be structuring it? All this stuff. And the CEO, Ian, just kind of chimed in. He's like, hey, Nathan, $1 million is a very normal amount of money to have in a business checking account. And I, like, it took me some time. Like, it's not normal. Like, don't you see? Count them. It's 7 digits.

You know, come look.

Yeah, exactly. And but just the way he said that, it was like, oh, right. Like, we've just sort of gotten to that scale. We need cash flow to operate. Like, the money's going to come in and out and like, That actually doesn't change. It's not like I didn't get a call from the banker to be like, "Congratulations, sir. You now have— Let me welcome you to the secret room where all the magic actually happens." It's like, no, that's actually pretty normal. It's just more of the same as you scale.

Exactly. It's like, where's the confetti falling from the sky? Like, I've unlocked some next level, haven't I? It's like, no.

You're going to have to get the confetti yourself. You can take that million dollars. You could spend $27 on Amazon and bring your own confetti. But the other conversation was with a friend, Mark Chernoff, who is a really talented blogger and creator. And we were talking about investing. And he had been— he and his wife Angel had been running a creator business for a long time, saving, investing very diligently. And I remember talking about like investment opportunities and what do you do once you get this more money?

Yeah.

And, you know, how do you like— sure, index funds and all of that makes sense, you know, when you have like hundreds of thousands of dollars. But what if it's $1 million and then $5 million? And, and he just goes, you know, the Schwab account or the Vanguard account functions the same with $500,000, $5 million, or $50 million. And he's like, you just set something up that makes sense and like, it doesn't matter. And like, to Vanguard, you're even, you know, I don't know what he had invested. I'd guess like $5 million at the time. He's like, to Vanguard, that is like still a very tiny account, you know, like, and so just all these things that we expect to change don't. And then we expect there's a level of complexity. And when we move to that level of complexity and like, if we assume that's there, then we almost create it.

Yes.

And then you're just making poor decisions because now like your, your business operating capital is not in one checking account as it, you know, you have it split up between all of this stuff. Or on the personal side, like, I need a wealth advisor, I need an executive coach, I need— you know, you probably have like a ton of things that you're listening to.

Oh, totally. I did, and I did all of that, like the financial advisor, the— I tried the Profit First, which I'm just gonna go ahead and say I hate. All right, y'all, I'm just gonna be honest. I know for a lot of people it works, but for me, I just don't want 50,000 accounts. Like, it's just annoying to move money around constantly. I guess, you know, I think you can build the discipline, you know, if you need to or whatever. I don't know. We can nerd out on Profit First at some time, but I definitely did all of that. And then I really researched investing, learned a lot about it. I learned some things from you in particular around investing that really like unlocked my brain. Like, oh my God, that's how that works. So that was awesome. And that's in Your Money newsletter. Quick plug for that. Y'all should get that for $100.

Because I like to talk about money. Turns out.

Yeah, exactly. Such a good deal. But anyway, I did all of that and then I realized, oh, I actually know what to do. I actually don't need a financial advisor. I don't actually need to give them 2% of the value of my account on an annual basis, you know. And I— then when I started researching like what I would invest in versus what my advisor had invested in, I liked what I invested in better. The numbers were way better, you know. And then I started talking to friends and they're like, yeah, I just do all that myself. And I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna do the same. And I felt so empowered. And now it's like I also don't want it spread out because I just want to see one pile of cash sitting, you know what I mean? I don't want like a bunch of accounts with tiny amounts in it. Like, that's it. I want one big account with a nice pile, you know, watching it grow and being like, oh, you know, every time you check it. So, and then it's so simple. It's like, literally just don't touch it. Like, that's all you got to do is just put it in. Don't touch it. Don't mess around with it. If it goes down, just look away. You know what I mean? Like, that's all you got to do. It's so simple. And then we way overcomplicate it. So yeah, I agree. And I think in business in general too, it's— we overcomplicate things, like adding too many things to something or overcomplicating the messaging. And just, you know, and it's like so funny when you go back to like old notebooks or you look at old things that you did and you're like, oh, that worked. Why did we ever stop doing that? Let's just go back to that thing we were doing 5 years ago that worked really well.

Yeah, the, the entrepreneurial desire that when something works, to then go find the next thing. I'm the genius that came up with this thing that worked, so let me go come up with another— use the same smarts to come up with something else that's probably going to be even better. And it's like, no, you genius, keep doing the thing that worked.

I can't tell you how many coaching calls I've had that are exactly like that, where they're like, well, I did this launch and it worked really well, and now what should I do now? And I'm like, like, so the launch worked really well? Yes. And you were really happy with the numbers? Yes. Okay, so why aren't we just doing that again? Why are we changing it? And they're like, oh yeah, you're right, I could just do that again. I'm like, yeah, run that play again. Keep running it until it stops working, you know what I mean? Like, why are we creating something else? It's because entrepreneurs need hobbies. That's why. Like, we need to find other things to do, like podcasting, you know?

There you go.

We need hobbies to you— like, to overanalyze those things or like to just take up brain space. Because I think there's just sometimes we're just wanting to either be creative or just bored, you know? Because that's the thing, an 8-figure business is a boring business. And if it's not boring, there's probably something wrong. Well, there's always something wrong, there's always something to fix. But like, business gets more and more boring as I imagine you climb and grow. And I mean, the What makes it fun and exciting, I think, is team, like having a team and working with a team and creating an awesome team culture and like all of that is fun. But I feel like the actual mechanics of the business, you don't need massive change to make it go anymore. You can still have creative ideas and, but you shouldn't be launching every idea that pops into your head, right? Like that's, then you're just creating mess and busy work and distraction. But one thing I will say though is I think we were in the middle of your intro. I don't think we ever got to it.

Okay, so nothing— this show is going to stay on track and we're definitely, uh, disciplined. Yeah. Uh, okay, my intro. So as you mentioned, I come from the world of software design, as we talked about, and I got into this like content creator world following people like Chris Guillebeau and Tim Ferriss and trying to think who else. Amy Hoy was someone I followed a lot in the early days. And so I wrote a book called The App Design Handbook, and I was— because I'd been building iOS apps on the side, like the iPad came out, I built apps for that, and then I was doing freelance design. I got this idea that I would write the book on designing iOS applications, and then people would hire me as a freelancer to design their apps. Like, who— you, you want to hire the guy who wrote the book on it for sure. And I think that strategy I think that strategy would definitely work. It didn't work for me. And the reason is that I thought if I can get a bunch of client gigs and make $10,000 over the entire lifetime of the book, like that would be a success, right? And so I launched it. I built it like pre-launch list, 800 people, a little landing page, all of that, launched the book, made $12,000 in the first day, and then never took on another design client. And then like that book went on to sell probably $400,000 worth over its lifetime. And then I kept writing. I had this little app that I'd built that would help you build a streak and just ask you like, are you going to write today? And so I kept going and I wrote another book and then another. And so yeah, I made about $1 million, probably just shy of $1 million over the next like 3, 4 years on selling digital products.

Yeah.

And then I wrote about the whole thing. Like I would launch a book and I think this is where a lot of people found me.

Yes.

Who didn't care about the design world necessarily, but I would launch a book and then it'd be like, here's what I did and here's how it ended up. You'd unpack your own launch. Yeah. And I wouldn't do it from like, I'm up on the ivory tower telling you this is what to do and here's the perfect strategy. It's just like, here's what I learned. Here's what I did. You know, take it or leave it.

Right.

I hope something was useful.

Here's what didn't work. And that's always the best. Like, those articles are so helpful to know. And just, I think everyone is looking for honest people that they can learn from. Like, you know, people who are honest, who are transparent, who don't just share wins, but also share losses and when things don't go their way and are not trying to claim that they have it all figured out. You know, like it's more like, I'm figuring it out as I go. Just like all of us, right? So, and I, I think that's a reason for this podcast. I actually had a conversation with some clients recently. One of them said, how do you keep your mindset positive, right? Like when things are hard, things are difficult in your business, or you're just going through a rough patch for whatever reason, something's not working and you keep trying things and like, how do you stay in a positive place and not just throw in the towel during those seasons? Because there's, oh, for every business, even, you know, the largest companies in the world, goes through those seasons. So like, how do you stay positive when you're in those seasons? And I said, well, I just like keep things in my ears, like, or reading things that are positive, like reminding myself that even though I'm not winning right now, somebody out there is winning, which means that winning is possible. And let me hear what they did and, you know, just like be encouraged by what they're talking about. And then I'm gonna go try it myself. And so we had that conversation and they were like, oh, that's brilliant. Like just always listening to either a podcast or watching a video or watching somebody's webinar or reading a book, like something that's encouraging and inspiring. And then I realized, like, I've been kind of lazy about creating encouraging and inspiring content. I've got— I've gotten very much in my, you know, just like on my laptop talking to my team and no one else, you know?

Yeah.

And I think that's part of the reason why I wanted to do this too, is like so that I can help to create content like that that helps people, inspires them, lets them know, like, no matter what season you're in, you can still get back to winning. Like, it does— it's a— it's always short-term as long as you keep going. The only, I think, failure can happen is if you just give up, right? And even that, right, you can give up on one thing but launch something else, you know? So, and that's all a part of being a creator. So I feel like we need each other, we need conversations like this, you know, to like stay inspired, to know we're not going through it alone, you know what I mean? To keep—

yeah, that's one of the things that I'm most trying to work on. Like, if you talk about personal development for a second, one of the things for me is to be able to like manage my anxiety and stress when stressful things are happening. Because I can let something going on in the business or the market or something like fairly outside of my control, like, start to get to me. And that's one of the things that I would like most want to work on now is to be able to observe something out there and go, oh, that's interesting. And make notes of how that might affect things in the future and then set that aside for when it might be relevant instead of being like, oh, let me just hold on to that in the back of my mind for like the next week.

Yes.

And then maybe like have my wife ask me like 3 or 4 times over the next week, like, what's wrong? Oh, I read this tweet, you know, that has me thinking about, you know, and, and you're like, oh, that's, that's not useful. So that's something that I'm personally working on is like being able to have that consistent execution even in the face of things where you're like, okay, yeah, that didn't go well, or that is concerning, but it's not worth me being worried about.

Yes, exactly. I love things outside of my control because I'm like, oh well, can't fix that one, moving on to things I can. I don't know, maybe it's the— it's— I don't know if you get like 40 plus and you're just like, I don't care about those things anymore. I, I feel like there are these milestones like every 5 years I, I think the first time I felt it on a really big level was 35, where I was just like, wow, I feel like I've just— I'm free from all these things that I used to care about and obsess over, and now I don't care. And then, you know, I got to 40, and, and it's a whole new level. And I don't think I really felt it fully until I was like— it was like approaching 41 that I got to that place of like, wow, I used to freak out about things like that, and somehow I don't care.

Well, great, you can, you can coach me on that so I can—

yes, exactly, we'll work that.

Yeah, and welcome to Nathan and Rachel's Therapy Show.

Yeah, so we have some things in common, like we have, we have 8-figure businesses, we have kids, several, many, some would say 3 each.

Yes, I think we established this already, but I forgot, are they similar ages? Mine are almost 12, 9, and 3 and a half.

Yes. And I have, I have 11, also almost 12, 10, and 5.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we're, yeah, we're pretty similar.

Yeah. And then I have, I have a bonus daughter who's 23 now, which is wild because she's been in my life since she was 5. So that's crazy. Yeah.

Wow.

Time flies. So people always are like, you have a 23-year-old and a 5-year-old? I'm like, well, I have 3 that I birthed and then I have my bonus child. So yes, 4 total. That'll keep you busy. So yes, this is not the show where if you're looking to like be like, well, I have kids and so I can't build this thing. Not, not, not if you're talking to me and Nathan.

No.

We, we're building and having lots of kids while we do it and it's great. You know, it all works out.

Yeah. Another thing that we have in common is we, we both grew up in low-income environments and have very strong personal drives. To make money. Like, there's a lot of things in our head, like, that we lived through, and it's like, I don't need to go through that. I don't need my kids to go through that.

Yes.

And yeah, yes, exactly.

It's very motivating. And I think sometimes too, like, I, I think when people say I don't care about money, I'm like, really? You must never have, like, worried about where your next meal is coming from or had your lights turned off or just experienced some of those things like, you know, insecurity around housing, food, all the things. And if you haven't experienced that and you say you don't care about money, it's like, okay, well, I see why you say you don't care about money. But if you do experience that, you understand how important money is, right? Like money is not— it's not about the money. It's about the well-being it provides. It's about what it provides for family, right? Like even the freedom from stress so that you can focus on your family. Family, right? Like, and enjoy your family's company instead of being stressed when you're together, worried about whatever, how you're gonna put the next meal on the table. I know that's what my parents were dealing with, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna figure out how to make money. And I, I used to— you know those guys that do that, like, they like just go up to people's houses, knock on the door, and be like, what do you do for a living? Yeah, that was me as a kid. Like, just roll up to people's house is 'How'd you get that?' Yes, exactly. See somebody driving around in a Rolls-Royce, 'Yo, who— what'd you do for a living?' So as a kid, that was me. I was constantly observing, like, what do these people do for a living? Like, what are they— how do they have money? Like, what's their jobs? Because I want to do that job so I can make some decent money. So I was very interested in money, like, even as a child, because I just— I saw that as the solution. Like, 'Oh, if I could just write a check for the Con Edison, like the electric company right now, our lights wouldn't go out and my mommy wouldn't be sad, you know, and we wouldn't be sitting in the dark. So that's the solution. So yeah, that can be very motivating.

Uh, so did you have like an early entrepreneurial venture or were you getting jobs early? How did you approach that?

The first entrepreneurial venture that I remember— I feel like there might have been another hustle at the park And I can't remember exactly what it is, but, but the first one that I remember is in high school. I used to write people's essays for class. This is— I was a freshman in high school.

Always been a strong writer.

The seniors in high school that didn't want to do their work because they just had senioritis, they were over it, they're like, just write this essay for me so I could pass this class and get out of here, you know. And so I wound up in a class with a bunch of seniors and I talked to one person. I think they approached me or maybe I don't know, I don't remember. But once I had one deal going where I was getting paid to do their essay, I was like, hmm. And then they told their friends. So like the power of referrals, right? And so I had like a whole thing going with a bunch of people and was writing their essays in high school and, you know, getting what was the going rate for an essay?

And did you appropriately raise your prices as demand increased?

I think I started at like $30. It was like $30 to $40, which is a huge sum of money to like a freshman high school student, you know. Back then I was like, this is awesome. And I think I took like one person's because I was already writing an essay on the topic, so I could basically have the information and I could just—

right, you didn't have to do original research.

Yes, exactly. So then I was like, I think I did somebody's for like 18, and then I was mad that I did it. And then I had a guy that was interested in dating me at the time, and so he was kind of like my muscle. Like, one time somebody tried not to pay me, and I was like, hey, can you go see if you can talk to them?

Go collect my $18 for this essay.

I gave them the essay, they passed, and they didn't pay me. Or like, they paid half and then they never paid the second half or whatever. Oh yeah.

And did you collect a deposit? This sounds very lawyer-y, and you know, yes, exactly.

First of all, always required money up front, you know, and it's like, why did I know that then? And then you get older and you kind of don't do that. It's not smart. But, um, but yes, so that was my first thing. But it got really stressful as I got more clients. I was like up all night writing essays, and my mom started to get concerned, so I stopped doing it. And you know, then I just got like a part-time job at a pet store, much more normal.

Were you doing ghostwriting before it was trendy on Twitter?

Let's call it that. Ghostwriting.

There's something interesting in there. There's a way that people expect the world to work. I think anyone who doesn't understand business or, you know, there's someone who goes into like a clothing store or something and they're like, the markup on these clothes is 50% over manufacturing costs. Like, that's crazy. They're ripping people off or what, you know. Something like that. And anyone who has ever come close to running a business understands there's a crazy number of other costs. And, you know, like, these are the margins when it goes well. And, you know, what happens if your containers don't come for months because of, you know, supply chain issues or whatever else? But what's interesting about what you did is, you know, you're selling one essay for $30 and you're like, oh, I did the work already, I did the research already, so I can sell the next one at $18. I think a lot of people think in that, like, like cost plus, like, yeah, the effort took me plus 10%, right? Instead of, you know, at some point you make the switch. Yes, right. Because if you'd followed that mindset with the Small Business Bodyguard, it, you know, like the first one would have cost many thousands of dollars. Actually, it kind of did because you did it for clients, you know, one-off, right?

Exactly.

But then you get to the point where you're like, oh, let me just make it cheaper and cheaper over time. It's like, Like the value is still there. And so it's just interesting of it's easy to fall into a trap as just a human.

Yes.

Pricing based on effort instead of pricing based on value.

Exactly.

All the leverage comes in pricing based on value.

100%. And this is something I learned quickly as an attorney because hourly pricing was like sort of something that was obviously very well established in the legal industry. But there was a new thing that people were talking about value-based pricing and pricing according to like like, you know, the work, right? Like valuing the whole work and the value of it instead of just hours. And that was a huge debate. So that was something I learned early on related to pricing. But yeah, that was my— and I think, you know, there's so many lessons you take from it that you don't even realize are in there that are like working, that are giving you information that you're using. So I feel like that is what I want people to do more than anything else, is just take some kind of action, any action, even the wrong action. Just try something because then you learn from And it like propels you to the next thing even, or it works, in which case, great. Right. One of, one of two things will happen.

One thing I'm wondering about is you talk about hourly rates as an attorney and it makes me think of status and what status games you end up playing that are useful for gaining status and harmful for maybe your end business goals.

Yeah.

So is there in the. World of practicing law, is there a status game around like, oh, he charges $200 an hour, but she charges $400 an hour? Is that like— because those are public, not quite public rates, right? But we know, I know in the law firm that I work with what, you know, each of my 6 different attorneys who do various things, what they each cost and when I want the associate to do it versus when I want the partner to do it.

Exactly.

Um, yeah, is that Is that a thing like across firms and like that you'd even be aware of?

I think for sure. Yes, definitely. And like, it's kind of like, well, I can charge this. So it's like people are impressed because people will actually pay this higher hourly rate for your time. And I think it's true in coaching as well. And it's actually something that I've struggled with because now that I have this 8-figure business, sometimes people come to me and they want like one-on-one coaching of some kind. And I'm like, I've kind of priced myself out of it because like if I take a day away from my business, what I have to charge for that is pretty significant to make it the value greater than the value that it would be to like just spend the time with my team training them or to spend the time working on something related to my own business. So it's interesting how that happens too, like in business coaching and really anything, right? Like, you know, or like, you know, do you remember when it was really popular? And there's probably still websites that do this where you like, you could buy an hour of an expert's time.

Yeah.

And you know, like, that's, that's a total status thing too. Like, do you charge $5,000 an hour, $10,000 an hour, $500 an hour? Like, what is about— what's the value of an hour of your time? So there's so many.

How do you want it to be perceived? Yeah. What's interesting to me is you could end up in this game where the higher our hourly rate both makes you more money in the short term and increases your status and further traps you in this low leverage path or medium level, right? If you're charging $500 an hour, like, I'm not going to say that's low leverage. You're doing just fine.

Yes.

But the high leverage thing is for, like, in your case, to fully opt out, you're like, hours? I'm not playing that game at all. I'm going to productize my legal advice and I'm going to make $1 million over the next 3 years off of it. But it doesn't have the same— you like, you have to stop playing this hourly status game that, yes, the legal industry is common for and just opt out of it entirely, which is probably, before it works, is a low status move. Yes.

And it's also scary because you're like spending— like, it cost me $15,000 to design Small Business Bodyguard, and I wanted a really good designer. Like, the design really mattered to the function of it.

I mean, I remember the look of the website even. Yeah. 10 years later. So yeah, it looked good.

And it was— the branding was hilarious because I wanted to make it clear, like, this is a different type of thing. It's fun, like, it's not dry, you know. But anyway, that spending that $15 grand on that designer was terrifying, okay? I was like, what am I doing? Like, this could, like, feed my family for the next, like, 5 months, you know, or, like, take care of my rent and everything for the next 5 months, or pay this designer. So you have to make these investments and these bets, which is really scary in the moment. But then when you look back, you're like, I was so smart. No, I wasn't. I just— I was shook. I just had courage, you know, enough courage to do it. But yeah, those moments, those moves are scary, but those are the ones that can really pay off, I think.

Yep. I like it. It makes me think of something that we were talking about a couple weeks ago of like revenue per employee and something we both obsessed over. At different times because companies in the world of not wanting to share income or specific revenue numbers, people talk about like how many employees, how's business going? Oh, great. I've added 10 employees.

Yes.

You're not saying like, great, I added $1 million a year in revenue. You're like, oh, I added this number of employees because for whatever reason, saying you added $1 million a year in revenue is like braggy, tacky. I don't know what. But saying you hired all these employees, that's like, I don't know, you're doing good for society or something.

It reminds me of people like that go to Harvard and they're like, oh, I went to school in Boston. You know, it's like they don't want to say Harvard because it sounds too showy. I'm like, well, if you went to Harvard, say you went to Harvard.

But you know what's funny though, because I think they, they expect that everyone knows. And do you have an idea of where I— like, I was homeschooled. I grew up in the mountains outside of Boise. I met someone once who was like, oh, I went to school in Boston, who did that, like, I went to school in Boston, in the way that like, they know that you know.

Right.

I didn't know. I had no idea. And so I was like, oh, where'd you go? And they're like, oh, you know, and then they had to say like, you could just see it got super awkward. They had to say like, I went to Harvard. And I was like, why didn't you just say that? But I had no idea. The thing that all of society knew about how, you know, yes, underplay.

Okay, not to take us down another tangent, but that is hilarious because it's, it's, it highlights something that is so interesting about building wealth, right? And like making money or having success of any kind. It's like, it's like everyone's rooting for you when you're the underdog and like everything is against you and you don't know what you're doing and you're figuring it out and you're like having maybe small wins along the way. And like everyone's rooting for you, then you win, right? Like, and I don't know, there's no defined win, but there is a certain point where things shift in how people are responding to you, you know what I mean? And so you're like, oh, I've won according to the world, right? According to like— and so you win, and then once you win, then everyone hates you, and everyone's like— you're like, oh, such a show-off, right? So like, you can't say you went to Harvard because you've won too big now, or you can't say you've made a million dollars because that's too much, right? Like, and it's so funny, it's like we're all rooting for you along the way, then once you get there, it's like we want you to win until you've actually won, then we hate that you've won, you know, as a society.

Yeah, there's, uh, I know it's a thing in New Zealand, I'm not sure where else, but the phrase tall poppy syndrome. Oh yes, if anybody rises above You like cut them down. The tallest, right? Right. Gets cut down. And I've seen it play out in a bunch of different scenarios, but it's basically that idea of like, oh, we're all in this together. And but then you rise above and it's like, oh, you think you're better than us? You think, you know, whatever else. But there's so many people where, like, in society right now, wealth is treated in such a weird way, right? Where everyone wants it and simultaneously hates the people who have it. And it's just interesting. I think you can't have that mindset without a lot of subconscious self-sabotage where if you're like, it's easy to say you hate the billionaires or whatever, right? Right. But a lot of people are even down to like, oh, I hate landlords, right?

You know, business owners.

Yeah, right. Oh, here's this greedy business owner who is charging this markup on their products. It's like, I don't think it's that much of a markup because everybody's paying it. No one has a cheaper price. Like if it was a crazy markup, someone would come and undercut them. But in that, you know, on one hand, you're like, oh, landlords are terrible and they're gouging on rent or whatever else. And then over here, like, I'm just really struggling to get my finances together and to understand how to build wealth and all that. It's like, right, well, you spend a lot of your energy undermining and talking against the very skills and behaviors that you need to learn in order to get ahead. And I think it's really hard to separate those two things if you have those mindsets. And there are lots of shitty people out there who have tons of money, but like, I don't know, there's a lot of negative energy that just hurts you more if you spend time there.

Yes, I agree. I had a really interesting conversation with Rachel Cargill, who's an activist, and Sonya Renee Taylor, who's also an activist and author, and at ROI about this exact, like, is it okay to make money, right? Because I think people struggle with that. Like, am I going to become a bad person if I make money? I think what we're grappling with right now is like, we're trying to— like, I feel like we're in this place, and maybe I don't know if we've ever been there before, where we're trying to make the moral more equal, right? Like, we're all trying to be— not all of us, but clearly not all of us, but some of us are trying to be good people, right? And I think we struggle with like, at least 50% of the people on this call. So it's like, how do I reconcile my desire to make money and also the harm that can happen from capitalism or the fact that there are terrible wealthy people and there are also good, really good wealthy people too, right? So, and I think that's something that we can talk about on this podcast and, and grapple with because I think it's a, it's a question that everybody has in their mind right now. Like how much is enough and what do you do with the money once you have it? And then what does the world look like when when there's a more diverse group of people who are all making money, right? When people of color are having highly successful businesses and there's diversity with wealth, more diversity with wealth, right? Then it brings up all these questions of what you can do when you have access to those resources rather than somebody else. It's always like this other that has access who is making decisions. And it's like, what if we get the power for ourselves? What does that look like, right? So So I think it's important to have these, these conversations and grapple with these questions because you're right, like they can affect our mindset for sure.

Well, just it's like the mindset and the information that you get access to along the way. Like if you imagine someone who, I don't know, they're, they're a billionaire or worth a huge amount of money. They went to Harvard, all their kids will go to Harvard because of some giant donation that happened. Like, I imagine that that person— well, first, they're probably a business owner, right? Because most— I think it's like 70 or 80% of billionaires right now are first generation. Like, they built their, their wealth. It's a huge, huge amount. Turns out people are really bad at keeping wealth. It's usually gone after a couple of generations. But there's a lot of conversations that that that, you know, wealthy family is going to have with their kids, both spoken and unspoken, right, over time, that then give those kids a huge advantage. Yeah, not just the money advantage and everything else, but it's like, oh, this is how the world works. Yeah, the basic things that someone who's like financially savvy and upper middle class, just saying things like, hey, you could use a first-time homebuyer's loan to buy a triplex, live in one unit, and rent out the other two. And like, if you did that, well, first, if you had enough money to be able to get, you know, a 5% down payment on a first-time homebuyer's loan, which that's a lot of money. But if you made a move like that at 23 years old, yeah, like that would turn into an insane amount of money, you know, at 40 or 50 and give you the stability and cash flow and this understanding of the world. And so I think that's one thing I want to do with this podcast is if you didn't grow up in an environment where people were having those conversations around you and be like, oh, this is how it actually works. No, you shouldn't go buy that car for 20 grand. You're actually halfway to the, you know, a payment on this property that could change your life. Like, that we can actually have those conversations. And because that's a big way— like, we're not going to go around giving money to all of our listeners, but we can go ahead and give it.

We have money, but not that much.

Not that much money. We plan to have more listeners than money.

Um, yes, exactly. Like, it's so funny, sometimes I'm like, No, like 10 million, 20 million, 30 million is close, still closer to zero than a billion.

So it's—

Oh yes. So much closer.

There's two things in there. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it's like, oh, I shouldn't quote this live, but a million seconds is like a week and a half or something like that. And a billion seconds is like 35 years.

Oh my God. That helps to put it in perspective. Yeah.

And then the other joke is, what's the difference between a million and a billion? And it's about a billion dollars. It's about a billion is the difference.

Exactly. Yeah. So it's okay. So to answer the question, it's okay to make a million dollars, y'all. Okay. It is totally okay. And yeah, you're not going to— nowhere near Jeff Bezos status. You know what I mean? Like, it's okay. What you're creating is stability for yourself and others, right? Where you can hire people and there's so much good that can happen with one person making a million dollars. You know, yep.

And I would say 9 times out of 10, there are exceptions, but I believe 9 times out of 10, when someone is making meaningful income or wealth, they're doing it through creating value for other people.

Yes.

And so you're actually making the world better. You're helping someone else. Like, you and I both teach and make products and all of that that people are very grateful for because it helps them make a lot more money. So that's true. It's not in the sense of like it's zero-sum or a fixed pie. Instead, it's like, no, I just make a small portion of what I help other people make.

Yes, I agree. And I mean, I don't know that I agree with your 9 out of 10 ratio. Might argue that, but yes, I agree.

Where would you put it? 5 out of 10? 7 out of 10?

Yeah, I don't know.

That'd be fun to get into.

5, 6, you know what I mean? I'm not that optimistic.

Tune in for a future episode where Rachel and Nathan go through the Forbes 400 list and categorize, did they create value?

But you know what I was thinking about? Like, I've been watching Beyoncé's tour. I went to one of her stops a couple weeks ago, and it was an amazing concert. Like, just absolutely incredible display of creativity. But each one of her tour stops, she has her nonprofit Be Good, which is doing this— like, they're calling it Black Parade, where they're like like doing a luncheon for Black-owned businesses in the, in the same city that she's having the tour at. And so like all of these businesses are coming, they're giving out grants to these businesses and having like conversations with— like the Atlanta stop was with Tyler Perry, right? Like, so you're getting to see amazing speakers that you would not otherwise get access to in this intimate setting. So, and I was just like, that is so cool, I want to do something like that. It's inspiring, right? So I think when we see people who have a lot of money but also are doing a lot of good in the world, it's very, it's very inspiring. And it just shows you like you have more than you can give more, right? We can only give, right, when we have enough, right? And so I think that's an important part of the equation for sure. And definitely part of our, both of our motivation. You, you give a lot to charities and are very committed and have been long, for a long time. And so am I. So yeah. So yeah. See, we're two examples. That's what we can say for sure. You can be a decent human being. We can't speak for those other people. Yeah.

Oh man. Let's see. So I guess what other things should we cover? Should we— we should probably wrap it up pretty soon. Target like an hour-long episode in general?

Yes. Who knows? Yes. So we were, we were going to talk about two things that we're obsessed with right now. So we, why don't we do that real quick? And then we'll—

that sounds good.

We'll wrap up this first episode.

Business side and personal side.

Yes. Yes. So what's one thing that you're obsessed with business-wise right now?

I'd say I'm going to cheat and go with two because I couldn't decide. Network effects. So like how something gets more valuable, the more people join it. It's kind of an interesting thing in the email world. Everything's been isolated. Like let's say you and I are in a mastermind group together and we've got a couple other friends and like I use ConvertKit and someone else uses MailChimp and someone else uses, I don't know, HubSpot or whatever else, right? We can trade business tactics back and forth, but it doesn't really matter that we're all on different platforms. But now with like ConvertKit's Creator Network, Substack has their recommendations and on from there. Like, yes, if you're on one platform, you can't recommend each other, right? So it's sort of like the, the iMessage blue text versus the Android green text.

Yes, exactly.

There's like some lines dividing it and it's fascinating watching it play out because email has existed for 20+ years without network effects. Social networks have had them, email has not. And now all of a sudden they're here. And so I'm like obsessively studying, okay, what makes one network win over another? How do you build a strong network quickly? What gets adoption? What else can we build beyond subscriber recommendations? So I'm nerding out on that.

Really fascinating. And one thing I like, I can see, like with the Creator Network, that is such a brilliant thing that you've just added to ConvertKit that adds so much value. And when I think about like the people that I serve in my community who one of the biggest issues is that they don't have a network. And so this creates an instant opportunity for them to have access to other people's subscribers, right? Like for them to get in front of more people and without, you know, thousands of dollars in ad spend, tens of thousands of dollars in in Facebook ads, right? And so I think that that's a great equalizer and a huge opportunity. So I highly recommend ConvertKit always to my community, not just because I'm an investor, but also because I do think it is the best tool. But also that this creator network is amazing. So network effects is very interesting. I love it. And I think it matters too for community. Like, we have a community, the club, and I like the more people that are in it, the it can increase in value in a lot of ways too.

One thing, yeah, one thing that I want to see more creators do, especially those that are, are teaching, like have their own communities and are teaching creators. So I think of like you or Pat Flynn or Jay Clouse or Mariah Coz or any of these people who have like amazing groups of entrepreneurs or creators, is to use something like the Creator Network and pair them up with each other.

Yeah, right.

Because then someone comes in, it's like, oh, Rachel, I bought your bought your course, I'm, you know, part of your community, and I'm figuring out how to take the information and apply it to my business.

Right.

And maybe you're pairing people up in small groups and say, hey, you should learn from each other. But then to go like, oh, you should like directly partner and grow faster together. Then that person would be like, wow, I added 100 subscribers last week thanks to, you know, who Rachel connected me, who Pat connected me with. And so that's— I mean, it's only been, I don't know, a month and a half since we fully launched the Creator Network, 2 months. But I'm excited for more people to do that because I think that the, the person who bought your material will forever credit, you know, you as the teacher or the one who made the connection with like that growth and business success. When we're out, like the person-to-person connection matters so much, but you're like, hey, you all want the same thing. I'm just going to pair you up and, and point you to the tool to do it.

So yes, that's awesome.

I'm very obsessed with network effects. And then the other thing which we'll get into in future episodes is flywheels. Like, oh yes, that's one of the topics that I could talk about forever, which I won't even get into the slightest right now because it's a giant Pandora's box.

It's a giant Pandora's box. But I— listen, my whole team, all we talk about is flywheels. Like, we're obsessed with our own flywheel. And, you know, we're always like, oh, it's because of this spoke on the flywheel, right? Like, we're all nerdy now about flywheels.

Careful, don't open Pandora's box.

Yeah, I will not open it.

Okay, what are you obsessing with on the business side?

So I'm obsessing over metrics. Metrics and really just looking at, uh, revenue per employee is like my, the new metric that I'm using to kind of measure our success. Because there's a certain point you get to a certain point and then like revenue is one piece of information, expenses is another piece of information, but like what actually measures the success of the business? And I think revenue per employee is pretty important cuz it speaks to the productivity and are we working on the right things? Right. And it's also about culture, right? Cuz if you have a high amount of turnover, your revenue per employee is gonna be low. And that is something that we have definitely experienced at my company where we started to grow and then people didn't necessarily want to grow with us, right? Like they liked it the way it was before and they didn't like that we were growing so much. And now things change, right? Because you grow a lot. And so we did have a lot of turnover at one point. And I think that's why I'm obsessed with culture in general and like measuring the success of our culture. So that and NPS, which is like employee NPS. So we send that out to our team and it's anonymous survey so that we can like measure our success. Us as a company, like providing a great place to work. And yeah, like every time that number comes back now and it just keeps getting higher, I'm like, so geeky, like, yay. Like it used to be, right? Like it, it's so funny. I used to always, it would always be like my clients and what my clients are saying mattered to me most. And now, right? It's like that my team is worried about my clients, which is how it should be. And of course I care about my clients. I want them to be happy, but it's like that making sure the team is happy is how I ensure that the clients are taken care of, you know? So that's my current business obsession.

I like it. Yeah, I'm also a big fan of revenue per employee. I track it not on— it's not a metric you track on a daily basis. That wouldn't make any sense. But I track it on like a quarterly basis and see how we're trending. And I've tracked it for years. But being able to see like, here's this climb. Okay, I made a big hiring push for this particular project. And so revenue per employee, you know, revenue is increasing, but revenue per employee is decreasing. Always graph them together. But I think it saves you from getting into that business owner trap of focusing on headcount. Like, yes, there's a software company here in Boise called TSheets, and the founder would always talk about how quickly they were growing in terms of headcount. They'd say like, oh, we're, we're going to double headcount this year. Be like, wow, that's amazing. And I would always be like, that's terrible. Why would you?

That sounds terrifying.

We're going to double revenue this year. We're going to double revenue while maintaining, you know, 30% gross margin. Like, fantastic goals. I love it. Double headcount. And then, then your whole team, okay, we got to double headcount. And instead of focusing on growing revenue, they're like, okay, how do we get better at recruiting? And which is important, but in a vacuum, like, that's a great way to kill a business. Oh, I love revenue per employee conversations happening more and more because then you're like, what can I automate? And then speaking of being a good business owner, If you have a high revenue per employee, you can pay really well.

Yes.

You can pay profit sharing or bonuses, like any of these things.

Really good benefits.

Yeah. If you have a low revenue— like, let's say you have a revenue per employee of $100,000 a year. Guess what? You cannot pay any employees $100,000 a year. Can't do it. The math just doesn't work.

Exactly. And that's what people don't understand. Like, that profitability is so connected to your ability to provide a paternity leave, right? Like a great maternity leave policy. Policy, right? Like, things like that, they all cost money, right? And so making money is crucial to be able to provide all of those things. So yes, it's so interesting how there's so many ways in which, as a business owner, especially because people will respond to you like, wow, that's so impressive, you have to not get too impressed with yourself. And you have to check yourself and be like, am I obsessed with this number because of ego, or does this actually matter? Am I getting caught up? Because everybody does at one point or another, and you just like want that thing that's gonna like really stroke your ego. And it's the best when you get it, because then you're like, yeah, you needed that. You needed that like wet blanket to the face to come back to reality. So yes, and headcount sounds like one of those numbers that's like— I, I think I've definitely been guilty of that. Like, I was so impressed with myself that I had so many employees at one point. Yes. Okay, so what about personal obsession? What are you obsessed with personally right now?

Yeah, currently I am working on my pilot's license, so I'm trying to learn to fly a small airplane.

Wow.

You know, there are those things that you're like, oh, I'm naturally good at this. I don't think I'm naturally good at flying a small plane. I'm going to get good through a whole lot of time and effort. But yeah, it's a lot of fun. And Boise, where I live, is kind of in the middle of nowhere. Like the closest major city is Salt Lake at 5 hours one direction or Portland at 6 hours another direction. And so, yeah, having a small plane is going to be pretty nice to, to get around. But yes, I've been studying lots, passed my written test 2 weeks ago. And so now I'm, you know, hopefully just another month or 2 and I'll have my license. Uh, probably 2 to 3 months. I should be realistic.

But that sounds absolutely terrifying.

But, um, yeah, you're like, I will never fly with you. And that's okay.

Oh my God. My husband has motorcycles and that stresses me out. Oh, you know? So yeah, I'm not an adventure junkie at all. You know, I like my risks like that I take from behind a laptop. Like, it's like business risks. I'm into that.

You're like, I'm going to risk this 50 grand on this investment and we'll see if it works out or not.

Correct. Exactly. I don't like physical embodiment risks, you know what I mean? Um, that makes sense.

That's the way that you and I are different. I, I like my My wrist. Um, what are you obsessing over on the personal side?

For me, I'm obsessed with longevity. Like, I've just kind of gotten into— I'm starting to wade into that world because I'm just really interested to know. Like, I've seen, you know, I've had family members and friends get like diagnosed with diseases or die suddenly, and I'm just kind of getting to that age where I'm like, okay, I need to start thinking about the future here. And like You know, having less stress, taking better care of myself. Like, what does that look like? And so I've started like reading and following different people and listening to podcasts about it. And there's one common— it's very complicated. And you can definitely, I think, go down a really scary rabbit hole with longevity, trying to control everything. But I think the key to it is building muscle. Like, if you want to be healthy as an 80-year-old person, if you have a lot of muscle in your body you're going to be able to like ward off a lot of diseases, stay very healthy, whatever. So that's— so now I'm like, you know, working out twice a day. I go for a run in the morning and then I go to the gym. And I'm like, used to make fun of those people that do that, that like run into one. I am that person now. Like, that's what I did this morning. I got up at 5, went for the run, got my kids off to school, and then went to the gym for an hour and, and weight lifted. So yes, I used to be a Pilates person, but now I'm like all about building muscle for, for the future. You know, this is like my investments in my longevity bank.

So you're working out twice a day, I'm working out twice a week, you know, we're basically the same.

Exactly the same.

Yeah, 2 times per, per unit of time. No, I, I did actually, after working out on my own for a long time, like kind of sporadically And not that effectively. Um, I did start working with a personal trainer twice a week and maybe like 3 months ago and 4 months ago made a huge difference. Like, yes, I should have done that a long time ago.

Yes. Accountability. I'm telling you, it works for a lot of different things. I basically live with my personal trainer because my husband is super into working out. So he goes to the gym every day. So I just like get in the golf cart with him and go, right? Like, so if I just do that, then I'm good. Right. So. So, I have like my accountability partner is Livin'. He does not get up at 5:00 AM and walk, but he did today though.

He did.

He came for a walk with me this morning, but he turned around sooner than me. I was like, "I'm going to keep going." He's like, "I'm done." So, I just want everyone to know that I'm still better than him because I went a little longer.

You know, we can use this episode or this show to categorize many reasons that you're better than him over many, many episodes. Don't worry. And then we'll make a highlight reel of just all the clips and then you send it to—

Oh my God, that sounds terrifying.

Oh yeah, I love it. But did your partner care, like, or is involved in your business at all, or—

Yes, yes, he's the CFO, so he pays the bills.

Oh, he's very involved.

Yes. And so that's what he was doing in our household. He managed the money in our household, and I was like, hey, could you come do that for the business? Because I keep forgetting to pay bills because I'm just like doing 1,000 things, you know. And he was like, yeah, I can do that. And so now everything's so organized. And I like that a lot. And I don't have to think about it, just make the money come in. And he disperses it all. That's good.

Yeah, my wife is not— doesn't have any interest or care, which in a lot of ways is really good for my ego. Yes. Like something amazing happens. And she's great about celebrating it with me or anything like that. We hit a big milestone. And then also she's like, Who cares? It doesn't matter. It does really great for our savings balance because like I, I'm fairly frugal and she's way more frugal than I am.

Yeah.

So like it makes it easy to, to save money and invest in all that.

Yeah. My husband's definitely the frugal one. I am not.

I must say, I could certainly do an entire episode on favorite things to splurge on and yes, all of that stuff. We should probably leave it there for now. This show is gonna be every week. We're gonna hang out and chat. Sometimes it'll be with the guests, sometimes, uh, just the two of us. Sometimes, you know, we'll be off doing other things and one of us will interview a guest without the other. But I think just regular conversations about, you know, what it means to build a business and the behind-the-scenes look and the creator economy and what's happening and everything else. So it'd be good.

Yeah.

All right, as the YouTubers say, you know, like and subscribe, and, uh, then We'll see you next week.

See you next week. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Billion Dollar Creator. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe, share it with your friends, and leave us a review. We read every single one. If there is a company you want us to profile on Billion Dollar Creator, send us a message on social media and we will consider it. Thank you, and we will see you next time.