007: Making Decisions and the Truth About Trusting Your Gut

Sometimes you have a gut feeling and it doesn't mean it's going to work out the way that you want, right? Sometimes it gets messy first and then later on, maybe it's years later, you realize, oh, I'm glad I made the decision because it sent me down a pathway that was hard but that led to where I needed to go.

Attention is power and creators harness it better than anyone else, but they're not using that attention to create the biggest impact possible and are vastly undermonetized. Hi, I'm Rachel Rogers. My co-host Nathan Barry and I We believe you can be a billion-dollar creator.

Sound impossible?

Over the last 10 years, we followed each other on our own quest to build billion-dollar companies. We've studied creators and seen how entrepreneurs build traditional audiences and use them as a launching pad for a massive business. And it got us thinking, if it can happen for them, it can happen for us. And if it can happen for us, then why not you? Billion Dollar Creator is a show teaching creators how to capture attention and turn it into real wealth. We will deep dive into brands, celebrities, and entrepreneurs who have done it before and show you how you can apply it to your business as an everyday creator. Join us weekly as we learn from both the wild successes and the missed opportunities, the grand gestures and the integral mistakes, and through that, help you become an expert at building your audience on your journey as a billion-dollar creator.

So we are back after Uh, a whirlwind couple of weeks of travel. Rachel, how are you doing? Are you rested and recovered from New York and Nashville?

I'm just delighted to be home for like a full 7 days without having to leave. Yeah, that's exciting, you know, because we were, you know, it was 2 weeks back to back that we had our first 2 tour stops.

Yeah, so I guess talking through both those, New York was a hit. We had filled out the room in, uh, Roosevelt Island. Sahil did great.

Yes.

That was a ton of fun. I think, okay, I have not, what am I saying here? You have come and spoken at my event. You spoke at Craft and Commerce. And so I've seen you in front of like our whole crew of customers. And there's a lot of overlap since we've been in the same circles for a while. It was interesting seeing you when like in your community, because wow, they came out in force. Like afterwards, you know, we finished the recording and it was like, great. And now we're going to, you know, go grab a drink and like now we have this creator meetup happening and it was a good time. And then you immediately had this line of 50 people. I don't know, you talked to everyone. You were so generous with your time, but you just talked to everybody. And, you know, I think I talked to like 10 people or so that came up, like, maybe 15, you know. And then I like mingled around the room. You like had to have handlers and help working this line. And I think maybe just not having done events— and, and you did your book tour during COVID and everything, so like I think you had probably the step function in popularity that maybe you haven't experienced in real life quite as much. But that was one— or at least I hadn't experienced it— and I was like, damn, Rachel has like diehard fans. And, and that was—

listen, shout out to all the Schmillies who showed up. Schmillies is short for Schmillionaires, which is who, uh, we refer to as our club members who are part of our, our membership community. But But yes, and even people who just read the book came out as well. And I think that is— I think it is an effect of, of a book, right? Like, had people connecting with the book. And it just goes to show, right, like, when I was writing that book and sharing the ideas with, you know, potential publishers and agents and all of that, it was considered somewhat controversial. Like, some people didn't like it. They tried to get me to tone it down, which— do I look like the type of person who tones anything down? Never. Um, to get you to not tone something down, I'm do that.

Next time I want you to do something, I'd be like, Rachel, could we tone that down? If I want to get you to go big on something, I'm like, yes, exactly, let's just play small here. And you're gonna be like, no, turn the dial all the way up.

That's the younger sibling rebellious part of me. But yeah, so it just goes to show, when you have a big idea that even seems somewhat controversial, you should share it. If that's your truth, get it out there, because there's probably a lot of people who do resonate with it. And you know, there's probably also people who hate the idea, and that's okay too, right? Like, you're going to draw your people to you, and you might repel some people who are not down with it, and that's fine because they were never going to be your customers or supporters anyway, and it's all good, you know? But yes, so I think people feel seen by what they've read in my book, and I think that's why they're so passionate. And it's always nice to see, like, when people come out and support these events. And when I did my book launch for We Shall Be Millionaires in 2021, it was all virtual. So we had a lot of people there. A lot of people have read the book since then. And I didn't really know what the impact was until I went to South by Southwest in— was that 2022? Must have been. I went to South by Southwest in 2022. And that was the first time people were like screaming my name in the street. I went like outside of Austin for barbecue and someone came up to me and was like, are you Rachel Rodgers? So that's when people started coming up to me and I was like, oh. 'People know who I am now. This is so weird.' Well, that's a— also, if you, if you put your face on the COVID of the book, that is going to happen. So just know that, because I didn't pay attention to that idea. Yep.

There's a few of those decisions, you know, on the fame side of like known for your name, known for your face, and like you can actually— there's pros and cons to all of it, but you can endure it. And we have friends who you know, have very heavily gone YouTube in that direction and get recognized everywhere. I was with Ali Abdaal in London, and he's got this great, like, productivity YouTube channel. I don't know, 3, 4, 5 million subscribers now. Wow. It's a lot. And I was asking him, like, you know, because we recorded, and then we're like, hey, let's go for a walk. And it's like, how often do you get recognized? He's like, uh, you know, a couple times a day. And then we're going for a walk, he gets recognized twice, you know, by different people. Wow.

Yeah.

So it was one of those things. He said if he takes his glasses off, then he gets recognized less often.

Oh, okay. So that's a strategy.

If it's whatever your signature look is, you can change that up.

And yeah, so like if I rock braids instead of my usual like big hair, I feel like I'll be less recognizable.

Yeah.

And it's also like people are mostly showing love, but it is, it's like sort of like when you're in— I've definitely been recognized at the grocery store when like my 5-year-old is running away from me and I'm trying to chase him and someone's trying to tell me about what my book meant to them. And I'm like, that's amazing. And I so appreciate that, but I got to chase this kid right now. He's leaving. I got to go. So there are those awkward moments in your regular life when you're in mom mode or like, you know, not business mode, right? Like, or author mode where it does kind of shock you a little bit. And yeah, I mean, I heard something recently about Forget his name. Anthony Mackie. He's like— who is he in one of the Marvel movies?

Oh, I'm the worst with—

I'm the worst as well. But anyway, he plays one of these heroes, and I watch all of them because my kids and my husband are super into it. But then obviously I'm not paying attention enough, clearly, because I, I can't remember which superhero he plays. Anyway, it was on the news recently that he was somewhere and an 11-year-old boy went up to him and was like, oh, I'm so excited. He loves the superhero that he plays, and he wanted him to sign his autograph, and and he told him no. And it was like all this backlash as a result. And I was like, I kind of get it. Like, I get it. Like, sometimes you have to have boundaries up, and sometimes you're just not in that mode. And so there was like all these people were debating, like, an 11-year-old, that's cruel, you know? And I would have a hard time saying no to an 11-year-old kid, but, but I also get it because when it's not just one, right, if one says, hey, can I have a photo, then you're gonna have a line. And as he's knows all the people, right? So he's probably gonna have a line of tons of people wanting a photo after that moment. So I get it, it's definitely a double-edged sword. There's lots of benefits and there's some downsides as well.

Yes. Well, the nice thing for our event is it's scoped, right? Like, we can— yes, we show up, talk to— I mean, just an amazing number of people came out, which was really, really fun.

And it was awesome.

Like, people show up in person. It's one thing to be you know, out for a jog and you're like, sure, I'll hit play on Nathan and Rachel's episode. It's another to like show up. And we had two people who came to both, and I don't think they live in New York or Nashville.

Like, exactly. Yes, there are some folks who are like coming to multiple tour stops, which is amazing. I love that. And also the one in New York in particular was in the least convenient place to travel to. Like, Roosevelt Island is actually not that hard to get to when the F train is running. When the F train is not running, you cannot get get there by subway, so you have to battle traffic. It was like also basically squarely during rush hour that they would have had to travel to get there. Like, this was—

United Nations was in town, and so—

oh my God, yes, President Biden was in town! So like, traffic was horrific anyway. So there was a lot of things that, that over 100 people overcame to come out to our tour stop. So we're very grateful.

I was walking, uh, I don't remember what street, but then I was just walking along, like, turned a corner and there was Secret Service and assault rifles and everything everywhere. And I was like, oh, I'll be walking to the next block. And I was like, what was that? And then Dave, who works on our team, was like, oh yeah, the United Nations. And, you know, and then sure enough, later, like a whole caravan of police cars and black SUVs went by. And I was like, oh yes, it was just one of those, like, what's going on? I'm gonna, I'm gonna go the other direction.

It's so true. We definitely live in a world where there's so many virtual options, virtual things to show up to. You don't have to show up in person. So But I do think that there are some wins that happen when you do, like the connections that you can make. They meet friends in Europe who live in your town, you know, so you make new friends and make new connections. There's so much magic that comes from relationships that I think it's important to still leave your house sometimes and go foster those relationships in person. So we have more tour stops ahead, so you have more opportunity to do that.

Yes. BillionDollarCreator.com and see where we're showing up.

I think we need to give some love to the Nashville event because we talked a lot about New York, but we didn't give any love to Nashville.

Well, Nashville is great. First, like, Sanera came out and her story is amazing. If you haven't listened to the episode, go listen to that because I mean, just what she's created absolutely blows me away. She's totally like, has just has incredible ideas, unapologetic about like her mission to take over the world. And, and it was amazing. You know, she doesn't live in Nashville. And so she was there for another event. Was able to say, like, when you asked her, it's like, okay, yeah, I'll like extend my trip a day and come on out. And so she was fantastic. We got, uh, lots of praise for her episode.

And yeah, the audience loved her, and we had a great turnout in Nashville too. And we were hanging out next door to Taylor Swift's apartment. We have to now mention Taylor Swift on every episode. But yeah, we had a good turnout there too. And I was like, this is so cool because I don't they were saying nobody ever comes to Nashville, so thank you for coming here. So that was really cool that people were excited. And I also just love seeing the ConvertKit and Hello7 audience converge and make friends and connect and like the diversity of the audience is really dope. So yeah, that's exciting.

Both events, a lot of people commented on that. Like there's such a unique range of people. That was really fun. The other thing, yes. So both events And we won't do this at all of our events, but at both we hosted a mastermind beforehand where we were teaching about, you know, like the more advanced concepts of being a billion-dollar creator and that mindset and then flywheels. And we had other people teaching sessions as well. And that was fun just to get like 20, 25 professional creators in a room. And there were people like we were teaching stuff and then some of our guests would jump in like Julie Solomon, who I hadn't met her. I'd followed her online, but I'd never met her before. And someone had a comment and she like jumped in and was like, okay, what about this? Have you thought about that? And I was like, I'm gonna sit down now and you can do your thing. Let you do your thing because that was really, really good.

It was very good. And I loved what Tim Grahl shared about, you know, building what that bigger vision is. And he led everybody through an exercise that I had some major ahas during that exercise. So like the masterminds have been great for me. I have like pages of notes. From both of those mastermind days. And like, you know, it's so valuable to get together with a group of entrepreneurs. And it's also another example. There was someone from my audience who's, you know, young Black woman. She's like probably in her 30s. And then an older white man who has, you know, his business. And they were talking and totally vibing and connecting and like sharing ideas. And I'm like, I love it so much. Yeah, it makes me so happy to see.

There's so many great ideas that come from a different perspective. And yes, what's obvious to one person is like, oh, I never thought of that before. And when you can say like, oh, my job is just to get you all in the room and then, you know, we'll go from there.

Let the magic happen.

On that note, speaking of magic, we could do a segment called Lovers and Haters. I don't know what we'll call it. It'll have to be something.

But I like that.

Now that we're a few episodes in, we're starting to get the blend. And maybe we'll start with— hater is too strong of a word. I'm just throwing that out there because I think it's funny. This is not actually—

we'll say detractor, you know, like with net promoter score, promoters and detractors.

Yes, we're going with lovers and haters. Crank it up a notch. Let's go pretend extreme. No, no. So you saw this, this post. Why don't you, uh, run through it really quick on the, uh, yes, the detractor side.

Yes. So we had someone who posted on one of the social media channels, I won't name which one, and her name's Michelle. Here's what she said: a million dollars is not enough. Now it's about being a, in quotes, billion-dollar creator when over 80% of women-owned small businesses don't crack $100,000 in revenue. It's not about a billion dollars or a million dollars. You don't need web celebs to break down Ryan Reynolds' marketing strategy for Aviation Gin. Which I'm pretty sure is be famous, funny as fuck, and make great ads that go viral. Figure out how to pay yourself well and don't give a crap about what the billionaires do, as that won't work for you. So that was her.

We just got called web celebs.

So, so yeah, let's take that.

I, I, that's where I aspire to be. I'm not quite there yet, but yes, exactly.

So yeah, so I just thought that was interesting. And she probably doesn't— maybe she knows I follow her, probably doesn't care, which is totally fine. I mean, I don't have a problem with people who don't agree, right, or don't like what we're doing. But I think it's an interesting question, right, about relatability or this idea that a million dollars is not enough. I actually— no one has ever said that. I never said that. I don't think, Nathan, that's something that you've said. What we're saying is if you want more, you can have it, and let's talk about how to get it, right? And we are always willing to share what we've accomplished you know, and how, how we've done it and how we see people doing it. And so that we can break it down so that you can do it if you want to. So the idea about Billion Dollar Creator is not that everyone has to be, you know, a billion dollar creator. The idea is that everyone could be a billion dollar creator. And let's break down what it takes to make that happen. I personally don't feel like my goal is not to be relatable, right? Like with We Should All Be Millionaires, the goal was not to be relatable because what's relatable is staying small and having limiting beliefs and, you know, having our income remain low or having a lack of control and power over your career and your lifestyle. That's not what I want. I don't want to relate to that. I want to reach for something bigger, and I've done that for myself, and I want to teach other people how to do the same because I know a lot of other people want that too. So, I wanted to normalize $1 million, right? When I heard no one talking about it, when I started, it was always like 6 figures, and I'm like, I've made 6 figures, and I don't know about y'all, but I'm still broke. So, after I pay my team, pay taxes, and all the other things, there's really not that much left, you know? So 6 figures sounds very glorified and it sounds like it's going to do more than it is for you. So I wanted to normalize that. And not saying that I single-handedly did, because I don't think I did, but there's lots more 7-figure entrepreneurs out there now. It is normalized now. And now let's normalize the next thing, which is building a business that can have a value of $1 billion. It's like, why not you? Why can't you do it? If it's something that you want, why not you? You know, particularly if you have a big mission attached to it. Why not be able to see that mission to fruition in a bigger way? You know, if you have more resources, then there's more that you can do in the world. There's more that you can change. So that's my stance on it. So that's my response. What are your thoughts, Nathan?

Well, I think what you said about being relatable is really interesting because that was when you proposed the name for the podcast. My first thought was, nope, that's not relatable, even though it's based on an essay that I wrote.

Yes.

And so I think it's an interesting problem of obviously you want to spread ideas to as many people as possible. To do that, the common thought is, okay, let's make it relatable. And I've even thought about that during some of our recordings where I'm watching the audience and going, well, quick aside, it is amazing to record in front of a live audience because when it's you and I recording on Riverside, it's like, is this good? I don't know. I'm having fun. Do you have fun? Okay, great. You know, I think it's a good episode. But like when you're recording in front of a live audience, you get like the mm-hmm and you know, you see people go like, I think we got an amen at one point.

Yes, you get that immediate reaction. So, you know, the audience is with you. You can see, you can even see the jotting down notes. Yes, the head nods, all of those visual cues to let you know like that they're with you.

Yeah. So if you ever have that opportunity, if you're a podcast host, record in front of a live audience because it's so fun. But on that note, I was thinking about relatability because we have inherently chosen a topic that is not relatable to a lot of people. And I find these trends, or like this tendency that I have to want to go and make it relatable, like, okay, but here's how if you're starting completely from scratch. And I'm sure there's some content that we'll come out with that will be, you know, the beginner's guide to thinking, you know, or at some point we'll cover that a little bit, but there's a, you know, 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 other shows out there that are talking about how to earn your first dollar on the internet and how to get to $100,000. And so we're not trying to be all things to all people. And like, yep, it's, you know, to, uh, Michelle's point, like, it's absolutely a problem, you know, that most businesses and even, you know, most women-owned businesses don't crack $100,000 in revenue. That is absolutely a problem. And that's not the problem that we're solving with this show, right? You're solving it with so much of your other content and training and your book and everything else. I'm solving it with content and training and a software product. And like, this show is something different. And so I think saying like, yep, this show probably at times, often our goal is for the show to often not be relatable and for you to either decide that's not for me and to shut it off and unsubscribe, or to say, like, I want that to be— like, that's where I'm headed. And so I'm going to keep engaging and listening.

Yes, for sure. I think there's so many people who have big dreams and big goals and are scared to say them out loud. And so I'm like, okay, let me go first, and then maybe that makes you feel safer so that you can— you can say you want to build a billion-dollar business, you can say you want to build a million-dollar business, whatever that big goal that's scary for you to say out loud, like let's normalize saying it out loud and not having people mock that person and say, who are you? Well, here's what the stats show, so why would you be capable of doing that? We say the opposite. We say, of course you can do that. If you want to do it, you can do it, right? And let's talk about billion-dollar execution like we did on the last episode with, with Sunira, right? And we're showcasing somebody like Sunira because I think she's very relatable in a lot of ways, right? Like, her story is relatable. We talked about how she was selling things out of her car when she started out, right? And then, you know, had this idea and decided to go full on and execute on it and created a billion-dollar business. So if she could do it, of course you can do it as well if you want it, right? And so my goal is not to— you know, it's sort of like this idea that like, oh well, we can't count on people to, to get the best grades, or we can't count on this population to make the most money, or we can't Right? We can tell them that of course you can do that, and we can show them how to do it. And then maybe that actually is what solves the stat, not this idea that, well, the stats say this, so don't count on it. No, the stats say this, so— and we say fuck that, and let's, let's crush those stats and make them irrelevant. So that's my feeling on it.

I love it. I saw this quote from my friend Catherine Lavery, and she was quoting Rudyard Kipling. The quote is, if you don't get what you want in life, It's a sign that either you did not seriously want it or you tried to bargain over the price. And like, when I heard that, I was like, oh, okay. If you think about any of these goals, right, like a huge business goal or a health or fitness goal or whatever else, the number of times when you're like, yeah, this is what I want. And you're like, oh, never mind, I don't actually want it. Like, you realize the amount of work that it is. And so you don't do it, or you try to negotiate and you're like, I want it, but this is what I'm willing to pay, you know, either monetarily or usually in the level of execution.

Yes.

I want to be super fit, but it's a little too expensive for me, you know? Right, right.

It's like, only if I don't have to give up cake, you know, for me, that's my, that's my thing. I love sweets.

Same. I'm right there with you. And so thinking about, you know, trying to negotiate on price where you're like, look, this is what I'm willing to do. And sometimes, like, it's an important thing to know your boundaries and, and like what something is worth to you. It might not actually— when you find out the true price of a goal, it might not be worth it to you.

Yes.

But then you have to decide, like, okay, like, that is why I didn't get the thing that I set out to do. And so that quote and Sanira's comment last episode about Billion Dollar Execution just went hand in hand to me. And I was like, okay, do you know that Are you clear on your goals? Do you know what the price is and are you willing to pay it? Or are you over here trying to negotiate of like, you know, I will build that business but only if I can do it in exactly this way, you know?

Yes, yes, that is a powerful quote. I love it. I'm gonna need to print that out because I love the idea of, you know, the idea of trying to negotiate the price and saying, well, I don't want to give that. And I think sometimes the that that people don't want to give, or that that it costs a lot of people, it's not always blood, sweat, and tears. Sometimes it's that, but it's not always more labor. It's what labor you do, right? It's asking for the sale and risking being rejected. It's making yourself visible, right, on social media or YouTube or whatever. And that's what's scary, is like, you know, risking putting yourself out there and people commenting and being mean, you know, or having whatever response. It's always like this fear of rejection that actually is the price we don't want to pay in a lot of cases, which is the price that we absolutely must pay. And we also pay the price, right? And so We live in a world where we can create this podcast and somebody like Michelle can publicly disagree, and that's fine, right? And it's— both of those things should coexist. I'm good with that, and I'm okay with people rejecting the idea. You know, that only— honestly, it only makes me dig my heels in more. So yeah, it only makes me more committed.

I was gonna say, if you have anything negative to say about the podcast, please post it publicly and make sure to link to the episode so that other people can listen and decide if they agree or disagree.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

And honestly, go ahead.

I was— one last thing I was gonna say is sometimes, like, what I was wondering too is, you know, I wonder if she's actually listened to the episode or if she's kind of just going— yeah, or just saw the title or is going off of the essay and not necessarily, you know. So I think there's a lot of that too, where we see a headline or a title and we fight with that but actually don't consume the content. So I just think, like, if you're going to be a hater consume the content so you have more reason to hate, you know what I mean? Like, you can strengthen your hater argument.

We will give you lots of ammunition.

Feel free to use that.

There will come a time that I'll say something really dumb on the show. Probably already have. Um, and then, you know, then people have legitimate reasons to hate on it.

But exactly. And also, we're open to feedback, right? Like, sometimes, sometimes people will reject it or not like something we say, and they're making a good point. I'm like, you know what, yeah, you're right. Thank you for sharing that with me, you know. You know, so I could do better. So yeah, I'm not a— I don't think that I'm perfect or above feedback.

Yeah. And our— I'll just throw in there again that our, our lovers and haters category is a joke.

Yes.

I don't actually think that—

yes, we actually send love to everybody who's, who's even given it a try or paid attention to this podcast. Even if you haven't listened to a full episode, thank you for even trying it, right? Even if you decide it's not for you.

No, for sure. On the lover's note, we got a note from Kat. She says, I listened to the episode with Sanira last night and I can't say enough about the impact. I laughed at myself for wanting to cheer out loud multiple times with the pure gold she was sharing. And she goes on from there. But, uh, yeah, there's just lots of times— I love that feeling when you're listening, you're like, that's right, and you realize like, oh, I am on a jog right now. Okay, you know, it sounds like she had some of those, those moments where you're totally into it and then realize if I, you know, I'm not in a room full of people who are hearing the same thing.

Exactly. I've definitely done that, especially laughing out loud, like, while I'm out on a walk or run, and people look at me like, what is she listening to?

Look, I'm just having a better time than you are.

Try not to be too jealous. Yes. So yeah, I appreciate the feedback. Please keep giving us feedback. Definitely send us love. Definitely send us, you know, things that you want to see us cover or talk about on the podcast, and we'll keep honing it.

That's right. One thing that— a topic that I'm fascinated by is decision-making. And, you know, everyone says like, oh, trust your gut. And I've had this idea in my head of like, okay, but should you? Like, there's the qualitative side of like, oh yeah, you know, And we all have those moments where we've done something where you're, you're entering into a situation, you're like, I don't think I should trust this person. And then later, you know, you find out that they ripped somebody off and like this deal went terribly wrong. Or, you know, you see something in the news about them and you're like, my gut was right. And I think there's something to it. But what I wanted to know is if my gut feeling on a decision, like, should it be trusted? And can I have this track record of decision-making to learn? Like, do I make good decisions. Uh, my mom used to say something, I think someone as a joke to my older siblings, I don't know, but when we'd leave the house, she'd be like, make good choices. And it's something that she kind of teased us with because I think someone else, I don't know if it's from a TV show or something, but you know, that stuck with me of like, okay, do I make good choices? Not just like, you know, are they morally right or some of these things, but are they leading to the outcomes that I want?

Right.

And so something that I do is I keep a decision journal and whenever I remember, it's not for every decision, but whenever I remember, I try to write down what the decision was, what the options that I was weighing between, what I chose and why. I think this is especially important for hiring decisions because I feel like I have a pretty good hiring track record, but it's definitely below 100%. And you can't hit 100%. And so like, even be able to see like in the hiring decisions, You know, you're usually trying to choose between like 3 really solid candidates at the end. So, you know, what are you basing it on? Like product strategy decisions. What times did I go down a path where I thought, okay, this is going to be the future of the company. And then 6 months later, I'm like, yeah, nevermind. This is going to be the future of the company.

Exactly.

So anyway, that's something that I do both write down the decision and the details about it. And then also write down, like, if I were to check in, say, at 90 days, I will know this decision was a success based on X, Y, and Z. And I know this was a failure based on these things. And that really, really helps me because there's times where I'm like, oh, it's going poorly, but, but, you know, we'll turn it around. And then I'll pull up a decision journal and be like, wait, it's going poorly for the exact 3 reasons that I said. If this doesn't work out, it'll be because of this. And I'm like, all right, past me called it. Like, it's time to pull the plug on this.

Yes. That, that is so valuable, right? To see, because so many times as an entrepreneur, especially as your organization gets bigger and bigger, it is not in a playbook. There's no textbook that's like, do this in this situation. You're gonna have situations where you're like, I have no idea what to do, you know? And you have to go and think about it. And at some point you gotta make a choice. And sometimes it's literally 50/50. You could flip a coin. With some of the challenging decisions that you have to make. So if you actually have a track record where you could say, you know, it's particularly on this kind of decision, or just on these big decisions that I've made in the past, how many times was I right? Right. It's almost like checking your work on your gut, right? If your gut says to do X, right, like, was your gut right most of the time, or was your gut wrong? And I actually suspect that— first of all, I think that, like, follow your heart or use your gut is good advice in some circumstances, but not everything is a matter of the heart, right? Like, not everything is something that you have a strong gut feeling. Sometimes you first of all don't have a strong gut feeling, so you don't know what to do. And it's also your gut feeling could be wrong, right? Like, it's possible to be wrong. One of my friends who's actually a life coach was really helpful to me when she said, like, saying use your gut— your gut is one source of data, it's not the only source of data, right? So your gut says this, What does your team, people on your team say, right? What do the stats say? You know, what data can you point to? What objective information do you have that you can use that are other points of data to help you decide? There are some times where you have a gut feeling or you know in your heart what you need to do, and at those times, just do it, right? Like, that's what you need to do. There's plenty of other decisions where you have no clue what to do and your gut ain't saying nothing, right? Or you're trying to make it say something that is not actually there, right? So, I love having that. Check on it. Like, actually, is trusting my gut an effective solution? So of course I have to ask, how often are you right? What do the stats say about you?

Yeah, well, the hard thing is that often— and it's true for a lot of decisions— often it's not clear-cut down the road. And there have been a lot of times that I've been right for different reasons than I expected. And it's easy to say, like, I made this thing and it worked, and see. But then you look, you're like, I made this thing, it's going to work because of X, Y, and Z. And then you, you end up like, it did work for entirely different reasons, and your assumptions were not, were not accurate.

Yeah.

So I've had that with like marketing campaigns at ConvertKit, people that I've hired that have really surprised me. Like, they ended up not being good at the thing that I hired them for, but they were entirely excellent at you know, a new role that we found for them. And yes, their work ethic—

yeah, yes, that has happened at Hello7 as well, where we hired somebody for one role and they did a good job in that role, but then this other role that we gave them that we wound up doing sort of by necessity, asking them to help out with it, and they wound up crushing it. And we're like, oh my God, you're the new person to do this now. Like, forget this other role we had for you. So Yes, I've had that experience as well. And it's interesting too, because one of the things that I was going to say about following your gut that I was kind of nervous to say, but now you're making me bolder, um, is to say like sometimes you have a gut feeling and it doesn't mean it's going to work out the way that you want, right? Sometimes it's like there's a path that you're meant to follow. Maybe it's so that you can learn a hard lesson sooner rather than later. So it's like just because you followed your gut feeling doesn't mean that it's going to work out neatly, right? Sometimes it gets messy first, and then later on maybe it's years later you realize, oh, I'm glad I made the decision because it sent me down a pathway that was hard but that led to where I needed to go, you know. So I think it's— we sort of think life is going to be this linear path and it doesn't always work that way. So sometimes you do need to follow that, your inkling, following your instincts. I feel like in therapy this is something that is a common theme that I'm working on with my therapist, which is like following my instincts, you know, because if you think about it, right, you're the most experienced person on the team. Building this business, right? No one has been doing it longer than you, and no one understands the nuances better than you, typically, right? It does start to change over time as you get bigger and bigger, but right now, like, that's still 100% true. So like, you're the star player. So like, following your instincts— you have so much data that you've taken in over many years, right, that are leading to that instinct. And so it makes sense that you would follow that. And a lot of times it's like doing the opposite of what the team wants to do, which is the battle that you have all the time that I have, right? Where my team's like, we should do X. And I'm like, we have tried X like 12 times over the years and it's never worked. And I don't think it's gonna work this time either.

Well, I think that's so important of the experiences that you have that the team might not have been there for. And then like how that feeds into the instinct, like something about me is that I will, if I see evidence that something is working, I will stay on it for a very, like, an unreasonable amount of time.

Yes, you're patient.

I am. Someone said this actually at one of— at the New York event, I think at the Mastermind, and I'm gonna totally get the quote wrong, but it was basically being impatient with action and patient with results. And that's the way that I think I am, of I will I'm like, we have to execute on this now. Here's how it like, you know, every day matters. And I really think about that, like when you're trying to do something big, trying to get to, you know, millions, tens of millions, $100 million in revenue or more, you need that compounding to start absolutely as early as possible and to go as fast as possible because we're just trying to get to goals that are absolutely massive. But often that compounding takes a very long time. Yes. And so I look at experiences that I've had of customers I've tried to land for ConvertKit where it's taken me 4 years or more to get a single customer. Not that that's the only thing I'm doing right, but of these touchpoints over the years, following up every couple of months, staying in touch, saying, hey, can we do this project for you? Any of that, or even the early days of ConvertKit, like 2 years in, ConvertKit was at $2,000 a month in recurring revenue. And lots of smart friends were saying, you should shut this down.

Yeah, I would have said that. Yeah, I would have been like, this isn't going anywhere.

And so now I have this trait of if I see positive signs on something, I will keep going, right? My team wants me to say, okay, but if we don't have X result by Y date, we're going to shut it down, right? And I'm like, yeah, those seem reasonable. Like, let's definitely reevaluate on that date if those things happen. And they're like, no, but commit in advance to shutting it down. Because I also have a tendency to spread the team thin. And what I realized, like, we're facing this with our sponsor network right now. I thought— so we're doing about $350,000 a month in sponsorships, which on one hand is a huge amount of money, tons of money getting paid out to creators. It's fantastic. I thought we'd be closer to $750,000 a month by this time. Like, my forecasts say we'd be $750,000. It'd be faster by this point.

First of all, can I also just pause and say we literally have to lie to ourselves, otherwise we would never start these journeys that take so long. We have to like be almost semi-delusional and be like, it's gonna happen in 6 months.

And it's totally—

6 years later, you're so glad you did it, you know what I mean? But like, on day one, if they would have told you 6 years, you'd be like, I don't got 6 years in me. You do though. You just don't know that you do on day one, right? So it's like, just pretend that it's gonna happen in 6 months.

When I grew we'd do lots of stuff in the outdoors. And so I remember going backpacking. I'm like, you know, as a 12-year-old, I'm like, I'm so tired. Like, are we almost there? And my dad's like, yeah, the lake is just over that next ridge. You know, you get there and you're like, he's like, no, no, no, I didn't mean the little ridge. I meant the bridge past the big one behind it. But like, and then you get there and you're super excited about it. And, you know, his little white lie about how far of a hike we still had, you know, helped get me there. And I think we do that to ourselves. Where there's actually a quote. I mean, there's all kinds of things to bash on Elon Musk about, many of which I agree with. But he— someone asked him, like, you're always wrong. Like, you keep saying this is going to be out this year, this is going to be here in 5 years. Like, all this, you're just perpetually wrong on timelines about everything. And he just said, like, yeah, I look at the track record and you're right. Like, I am always wrong. And the, the thing is That, like, I think what he says is, I'm an optimist in a way that, like, I have to think in that positive way, otherwise I wouldn't tackle it. And so he's like, I'm like always able to pull off some version of it and usually very wrong. Like, I think this is possible. Like, I gen— I'm not lying to you. I genuinely think this is possible within 3 years, you know, or whatever. And I'm continually wrong and I continually create these big results. And so it was just interesting. Thinking about that of when do you— you don't want to be delusional, but some amount of that is required. But then you also want to be aware of the mistakes that you're making so you don't repeat them and do them consistently, because that's where you could end up— like, let's say you get into a situation where you're like, okay, I have this bet and it has to work within 12 months because of this amount of money that I'm spending on it, and I don't have more money to throw after it.

Right.

Then you could get yourself into a situation where your company has to shut down because you didn't pay attention to your track record that says like, oh wow, this always takes twice as long as I say it will. And my team always tells me I'm under, you know, underscoping. And so like, if you're not keeping the history, then you're going to, you can get yourself into real trouble. And so it's an interesting balance.

You could, and then also you could say like, we can only do this for 12 months because we're going to run out of money in 12 months. And then some like new partner or new revenue stream could emerge that you didn't expect, and now all of a sudden now you got another 24 months of runway, you know. So it's like you got to be open to— and that's, I mean, that sort of sums up what I love about entrepreneurship. It's like you just never know what the hell is gonna happen next, you know, and you just stay on the journey and, and trust that you will have a good enough answer on the day that you need to have it and just keep going, you know? Like, that's really all it is. It's like you have to trust that you can handle whatever is going to be thrown at you and not try to over-prepare. You do need to prepare somewhat, right? And obviously learn from your mistakes is key, because if you keep making the same mistakes, it gets really annoying. It's like, really, did I do that again? Damn it, you know what I mean? That's really frustrating. So I think tracking your decision-making for that reason is really valuable. But I do think you just, you have to trust that you are going to have the right response and you have the skill and the ability to figure it out when it happens.

Right.

And, and come up with the next move at that time and not overly course correct for what could go wrong. It's 'cause that's what creates being really risk averse, which prevents you from taking those big swings that are actually what results in these big opportunities. Not just, you know, being, what is it, famous, funny as fuck, and making great ads that go viral. It's not that that makes you a billion dollar creator. It's showing up every day doing the work. Yes.

Well, on that note of thinking about the, like the mistakes that you make, there's another list that I track and that I, it's just in, in the Apple Notes app. It's not tracked in any fancy place, but it's just a, a note called Unforced Errors. Now, if anyone doesn't know from sports, an unforced error is defined as a mistake in play that is attributed to one's own failure rather than the skill or effort of one's opponent.

Right.

So this is like, you know, you dropped the ball, you dropped the ball, you know, whatever it is. That was an entirely catchable pass. The tennis swing, like it was all you. No one made you do that. And this is the list. I think as an entrepreneur, as you get more and more successful, you get more positive feedback like, oh, Rachel, you're so amazing. You did this, you did that, you know, totally. And then that can get to your head and you're like, oh, I should trust my gut on 100% of these things, or I don't make mistakes or Now other people get too far caught up in the other direction, but you know, you have to realize that that feedback is going to keep building you up. And so having the list of, okay, where have I made a mistake that it's not through— like, I was trying to choose between A or B, I went with B, you know, it turns out A would have been better. That's not an unforced error. An unforced error is when you're setting a strategy on something and— or you totally miss an opportunity that you should have seen. Yes, I have a couple of these that— yeah, but you want me to?

Yes, I would love you to. And one thing I was going to say too is this is why I have a sort of personal policy that I trust no one's opinion of me. And so that means when people are sending me love all the time and being like, you changed my life, or I love your book, or this or that, or you're the best, I'm kind of like like, maybe, I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, I take it with a grain of salt and I'm like, I'm gonna accept the compliment. And it's sort of like, I accept it, I'll hold it in my hands, but I will not let it get into my veins. I will not let it like permeate, you know? And it's the same thing with hate, right? Like with people who are like, you're the worst, you're evil, you're this, you're that, whatever. I'm sure there's all— you could probably Google it and find plenty of things, plenty of adjectives that people have said to describe me. I don't trust those either, right? Like, again, it's like I can hold it in my hand and I can— I even when I get that sort of negative feedback, I can look for it and say, okay, let me ask myself, do I feel like I was out of integrity? Do I feel like I did something shady? You know, let me ask myself really and think about it. And I ponder that because I— you got to ask yourself, you got to always be 100% honest with yourself. But I just have this policy that I like don't trust anyone's feedback. I just have to trust my own. Do I feel like I'm in integrity, you know?

Right.

And of course, I have those close friends and, and close family members who tell me the truth about myself, both the good and the bad. And I'll, I'll take what they have to say with more weight. But I think you just have to have a policy of not, not accepting too much praise and not accepting too much hate either. Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. You're not the best thing since sliced bread. You're also not the worst thing, you know what I mean? You're somewhere in the middle. And I feel like that's a great way to stay even and not let shit go to your head and also not beat yourself up too much or hate yourself because you made a mistake. You're allowed, you know, we're all human. So anyway, that's just an aside. Before you go into unforced errors, you were going to say something about the Creator Network, about getting to 350. Yes. And I feel like people are going to be mad at me for cutting you off, so I want to make sure we're going back to that.

We'll just jump around between a few things. So I realized that I have this tendency in myself that if I'm seeing any— let's see, I need two characteristics to be there for a project. One, I need to see any positive momentum.

Okay.

And I need to fully believe in the, like, its eventual role or place in the business.

Yes.

And if I have those two things, I will stick with something far longer than is reasonable. And it's because if I look back in my, like, entrepreneurial career, I have like these 4 or 5 moments where any reasonable person would have said, time to shut that down. And many people did say that, and I chose to stick with it, and then it resulted in something very, very successful. And so I have to make sure to bridge the gap. Like, this is something for our sponsorship network where now it's getting real momentum, but the team kept saying like, okay, you know, here's your spreadsheet of where you said it was, here's where it actually is, like it's inconsistent, all of that. And like, I had a hard time articulating a why, like against all data, we just needed to stick with it. And I'm like, no, 'cause creators need this service. And I'm seeing like, yes, that was a big problem. We figured it out and we'll figure out this next one and on from there. And so I think you have to be able to tell that story to your team and not just saying like, my gut says stick with it. And I'm like, I can't make business decisions off Nathan's gut. Like, but then if you can tell the stories and say, this is why, this is the track record. That tells me if I stick with things, you know, longer than is reasonable, I will often get great results. And so that, you know, I'm willing to keep investing, stick it out.

Yes. Yeah, I love that so much. And I do think you have to sell ideas, right, to your team, right? Like you have to share the narrative that's in your head. They need to know it too, because they need to know why they're getting out of bed every morning to work on this thing, you know, that they think is a fail. If you don't show why you think it's a win, You know, they're going to still think it's a fail and be like, why am I working on this waste of time project? Yeah.

There's this idea that, you know, I've heard people say like good ideas should sell themselves or stand on their own or whatever. And it's like, no, so many good ideas require great marketing and packaging and then relentless sales until someone actually understands it.

And so that's your job. Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's true. Having an insight that this is something that needs to be in the world or a belief that this is something that needs to happen in the world. And I'm okay to wait to get the win. I don't think people understand that enough. It's so easy to be like, well, they're just in it for the money, it's all about the money. And I'm like, that is so one note, and it's so not true. I mean, maybe it's true for some people, but I think it's pretty obvious who it's— you know, like, the people who are in it for the money, it's usually obvious that they're in it for the money. But I think that the fact that you can create something in the world that makes a positive impact, and that, you know, you have to you have to take so many losses, so many hits sometimes along the way to see that win. And it's like people just see the win and they're like, they're just in it for the blah blah blah. And you're like, do you know how broke I was for so long? How long I was working on this by myself? How everyone told me I was crazy? I was basically building Noah's Ark and everybody came to town to tell me I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And I just keep building anyway and embarrassing myself before you ever get this win. And now it's like you're judged based on the win alone. Not all of that effort that it took that you were doing in private to make it happen. So, but I think I'm glad we're talking about this because I want people to know, like, that's so normal. People who, you know, other entrepreneurs who have this insight or have this idea, and even though they're not seeing tangible wins yet, they truly believe in it, then it's like, you just got to see it through. And there's no guarantee because you're seeing it through that it's gonna win, but maybe you learn something else that's super valuable, or maybe it does actually win eventually. And I feel like 9 times out of 10, when you stick with something and you just keep pouring into it and you're relentless about it— it— well, maybe not 9 times out of 10, but more often than not, let's say 6 out of 10.

Most people make a failure of not acting rather than acting on something for too long.

Yes, exactly, exactly right. I completely agree. So good. I'm glad you finished that story. So long story short, the sponsorship network is here to stay.

It is here to stay. It is growing well. I think we grew another 10% just last month on it. And so it's like, there we go, right? But you gotta stick with those for a while. Unforced errors aside, two of these— now I'll share three. One is, uh, you were around for this, is, uh, not that you had anything to do with it, it's just that you were an observer on the sidelines, is rebranding the company from ConvertKit to Seva. And that was something where I really— I've always been inspired by brands like Nike and others that have like these names that you just know what they mean, and they can really build an iconic brand around it. And it's not just, you know, a software company or a shoe brand or something else. Like, the brand really means something. And so I was on this like multi-year quest to rebrand ConvertKit. I've written about it. I won't go into it like the whole story, but the short version is we bought this domain, seva.com, S-E-V-A. Seva in Hindi and Sikh culture means selfless service. And so I was like, that's great. Like we are here to serve creators. That fully resonates with it. So we bought that, rebranded the company, announced it on stage. I had a bunch of people being like, that's the dumbest name ever. Why would you do that? And I expected that. And it's like, give it a few years. Like so many companies.

Yeah.

You know, like, it'll take a while. And then what ended up happening is realizing we started to get a different category of feedback where people were saying, not like this name sucks or something like that, but they were like, this name is sacred to me. And I'm like, hold on. You know, like in the hate mail, you're sort of like, Whatever, whatever. What's that? And I knew that it was a Hindi word and it was a thing, you know, a Sikh word as well. And in Hindi, the research that we'd done, like it means service, right? Like the, it'd be pronounced Seva, but the, the passport service, you know, is basically Seva passport, you know, and so where you would go to get your, your passport, but in Sikh culture, it means like giving without the expectation of anything in return, like the highest form of worship.

Yes.

And so that you realize like, oh, that's like something really, really important. So I went through this whole journey and there were like different layers of it. First is like it's something from someone else's culture, like that's not ours. And then second, like it's something very, very meaningful. And so I ended up changing the name back, you know, undoing all this, getting a new wave of backlash because now it was like, oh, you've given in to the social justice warriors. You know, and he was like, oh my God, you know, trying to say like, no, here's the journey that I went on and here's why I think this is the right decision and the best. Like, if you truly understand what SAFE means, like the only option to do is to not use this for like your for-profit company. So there's a lot of things in that, like sometimes stuff will happen that you make a mistake and, you know, learn from it, move on, apologize for it. But the unforced error in that is really like, this is research that I could have done in advance. You know, I did whatever, a day's worth of research, you know, a couple of weeks, that sort of thing. And to make a change of that size, it's easy to say like, oh, some people will hate it, some people will love it, and we'll move on. But like, you could— this was all knowable information.

Yes, it was foreseeable. Even sending a survey to a segment of your like most passionate or your like biggest users, you know what I mean? To say like the people who are most committed to the brand or whatever and getting a cross-section of feedback that, you know, so it's, you know, making a mistake sucks, right? We all beat ourselves up when we make a mistake, but it was such a public mistake that it's so painful. Like you're like, hey, this is our new brand, we're here, yay. And then it's like, oh, we fucked this up. Goddamn it. Yes, but honestly, I think that what people fail to realize is so many times it's like making the mistake is rarely the problem. It's always the reaction after you learn that you've made a mistake, right? After you get this additional new information, you could have dug your heels in and said, I don't care, right? But you actually listened to your audience.

I think it would have worked out fine if I had done that. Like, yeah, I think whatever controversy would have blown over people would have moved on, right? There's plenty of companies, you know, words like Prana or Asana, right? Similar cultures, similar, like giant multi-billion dollar brands, and everyone's like, yeah, that's fine, right?

Right.

Now this is a diff— probably a different level of importance on the word, but on one hand I was thinking about that of like, okay, this will just blow over, people will move on. But it was really the moment of like, okay, what are my values? What does this mean?

Yes.

And so it's not just—

you gotta be honest about that.

Yeah. And here are the consequences. If I go down path A, it'll be this. Path B, it'll be that. And it's not like just weighing it back and forth. It's like, okay, what do I think is right? And that's the thing that made, like, made the decision.

Yes.

And so then, you know, in my decision journal and in my list of unforced errors, I have notes on like, okay, on decisions of this level, right, here's types of things we can do in the future. Let's carve off— I have 200,000 people on an email list, like send an email to like 5,000 of them across and see, like, like test this out. Another example that I loved is the company FreshBooks. They make accounting invoicing software, and they had a new version. They decided to rewrite their software from scratch, totally new version, but they knew that if they rolled it out some people and we're like, here's the new thing. Some people would be really upset.

Yes.

And so they wanted to know, they wanted real feedback and to be out there in the market for as long as possible with the new version and keep improving it without all the preconceptions of the old one.

Yeah.

So they founded a new company, gave it a different name, never told anyone. And then there was just this new player in the invoicing space that started competing for the same customers. And started competing out there in the market and it was able to like build and grow and get feedback. And then only like 18 months in after doing this did they then say, actually, just kidding, we're the same company and we now have a really solid, compelling product that we've been testing in the market for 18 months and we know what's better and we've closed all the gaps because they could say like, hey, switch from FreshBooks to this one. Someone's like, no, I love this feature in FreshBooks.

Yes.

And they're like, great, we missed that in our, you know, in our testing. And so they could build that out and go from there. So I think just this idea that there are ways to test things and are like big, bold, as an entrepreneur, someone's going to hate this, so I'm, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Yeah.

Can really get us into trouble and it really easily mitigated trouble.

Yes, for sure. I think that's so true. And I think with a decision like that, first of all, if you don't feel good about it, you're gonna carry that forever, right? Yeah. If you would've stuck in. And also you could also have just a, a group of people, even if it's a small group of people. People that forever hate your brand, or just people will forever remember how you handled that, you know. And I think because of the decision that you made, people will forever remember how you handled that. And I think it just builds so much trust and so much love and draws people who actually are aligned with how you think, right, and you're in your belief system, your values, to you. So it's a beautiful thing. So like actually making big mistakes and embarrassing mistakes can be so much growth opportunity, right? And even like growth opportunity in terms of more people are drawn to your brand because of how you recover from the mistake and your willingness to listen to other people. You know, all of that matters so much. I think people underestimate how valuable that part is.

Yeah, I think you're right. The two other unforced errors that I'll share to just encourage people to keep their own list because, yes, I hope this is sparked, you know, someone's going like, oh, You know, now I have a list of things. One of them is in the email marketing world, there was this debate for a long time between like simple plain text emails and like beautiful designed emails. And we stayed, we ran a bunch of tests and we found that the pretty much always, like in a statistically significant way, the plain text looks like I just sent it from Gmail email would almost always outperform any level of like beautiful design and branding. And so we stayed focused on this idea of like people say like, oh, I want to be able to make like this beautiful email. We're like, no, you shouldn't. Like, we're here to help you make money. Do this instead. And what ended up happening is basically the market started to shift. And what was like, hey, I'd like a beautiful email design, but I'm okay with anything. Then people said like, no, this is really important. And so important that a company called Flodesk came out and that was their only value proposition. They're saying this is all that we do is really beautiful email templates. And they ended up building a business to, I would think, over $15 million a year in revenue, carving out a section of our market, all because we like stayed true on this one thing that we believed in and excluded people who are like, okay, well, I'm going to go find a solution somewhere else. And that was something that, like, the reasons that we focused on plain text emails was still like, they're still true today. If you run the same test, it still performs. And most people are just like, I don't care. I wanna represent my company in a way that I'm really proud of.

Yeah.

And so being so attached to the data in that, like, I was so attached to the quantitative data that I missed all the qualitative data.

Yes.

And I should have reevaluated that. Now, 2 years ago, we did reevaluate and said like, okay, we can actually build a better, you know, an even better email designer than Flodesk. We can build this whole open ecosystem where any designer can contribute templates. And it's taken us the last like 18 months to bring that to life. And now it's totally live. It's available. It's on our free plan. Like, it's fantastic. But I gave up $5-10 million in revenue.

Wow.

With that mistake and then just really taking too long to course correct.

Yes. Uh, that reminds me of this idea of kill your darlings, you know. That is a Stephen King quote, you know, and it's, it's usually advice given to writers where you like fall in love with some aspect of the story, but it's actually not serving the reader, it's not advancing the story, and you need to kill it and let it go.

And but you, but that scene is so well written or whatever.

Exactly. You're just like, you're in love with it. And it's the same thing, it happens to us as creators and entrepreneurs where we we are obsessed with this idea and this idea holds us back or holds clients back and we're like, I'm going to be relentless with it. Like an example of that for me was, and this is where I made a good decision, but I could have easily gone the other way, which was I hated memberships. I used to always be like, memberships are the worst, screw memberships, you don't want to build a membership business, blah, blah, blah. And I had good reasons, right? Which is basically like a lot of people do memberships because it's cheap. And they don't want to have to sell something that's expensive, so they sell something cheap and often go out of business because they don't have a big enough audience to support it. Yes, exactly. Like, a membership is a serious business, right? Like, you gotta really put a lot of effort in, and you have to have— I recommend that people have a larger audience when they first launch a membership, like a more established audience. But anyway, COVID came, my business was like obliterated. Not gone, but like Lots of revenue gone in less than 30 days because of it. And so I had to decide, okay, I have all this audience, I have this team, I have this content. How can I match it in a way that makes sense for the times? And it, like, the obvious answer was start a membership. And I was like, oh my God, now I have to like publicly do what I've always said I never would do. You know what I mean? And it's like the embarrassment of that is like, that could keep you from doing the right decision. Or you could say, you know what, I'm allowed to change my mind and actually see where I was wrong. And now I see that this is actually the best way to serve my customers. I'm going to do what's best for my customers instead of what's best for my ego right now.

You know, when what's best for your customers and what your ego wants conflict. Yep. I've been in a few of those moments myself, more than a few. Yes. And they're painful.

They can be. Yes. But in the long run, And you're better served when your clients are better served. Like, everybody wins. But it is sort of embarrassing sometimes. So yes, but I love, I love this, even this process. We should just make unforced errors like a section of the podcast.

Well, I don't make any more unforced errors. I listed mine out and I'm, you know, I've got like 6 or 7 in the list and that's so I won't ever—

Yeah, listen, you don't plan to, which is exactly why you will. But it's fun actually to like reevaluate what are some of the decisions, because people always ask like, okay, you have an 8-figure business. What are some of those key, like, points where that made that possible, right? What were those key decisions? What were those key inflection points for, for Hello7 deciding to create a membership? That was a key inflection point because that took us from a $2 million business to a $5 million business in 12 months, you know, which I had no idea that it was going to do that. It would be nice to say I saw that coming. I did not.

All engineered from the beginning. But yeah, when you list these things out, either decisions or unforced errors, you can see those trends. Like in my unforced errors, I have 3 or 4 things on that list that are all the result of putting a single person on a project and basically not resourcing a project well enough. And then it ends up not being successful, which means it doesn't warrant more resources, which means that it ultimately dies out. And so I can see that across a handful of these things. I'm like, okay, that is like a trend that I have. I think of like, oh, I could do this as a solo person, so let me just put one person on it. And then even these things that I like deeply believe in end up dying out because I don't resource them properly. And so now I'm like, okay, when I'm planning something, I'm like, oh, let's just put one person on that, they'll get that done, it'll be awesome. And I'm like, wait, but here's the graveyard over here of things where I made that same mistake. Maybe, maybe that's how we actually get projects killed. And if I believe in it, I have a different strategy.

And so I'm kind of obsessed with this. I can't wait to go like write a list of all of my unforced errors that at least that I can remember.

Yeah, right. Memory. My team.

Yes.

My team.

My husband. My husband. Like, it's so funny because all of my like Strength Finders, it's all— I'm very futuristic. I'm always like thinking about the future and what creating the future, right? And my husband, his highest strengths, I forget what it is, what it's called, but it's like someone who looks to the past to make decisions. So like always looking at data from the past. So like he's like, the future doesn't exist yet. Forget the future. Let's look at past data and let's make present decisions based on past data. And I'm like, let's look at the possibility, right? And let's make decisions based on possibility. And so we clash on this. All the time. And it's almost like we laugh about it now because it's so obvious that we always— he's always looking to pass data. I'm always like, possibility, you know? But anyway, he keeps a clear record of my mistakes. So I'm going to go to him and the president of my company, Brittany. First of all, her memory is like a steel trap. She remembers everything we've ever did. And I'm always like, well, we made this decision. She's like, that is not at all what we did. Actually, what we did was X, Y, Z. She remembers it to a T. So I have all the resources I need, I think, to make my list of unforced errors.

That's good. Well, for anyone listening, if you make your own list of either a decision journal or have a process like that, or you have your list of unforced errors, we would love to hear about them. Twitter, Instagram, any of those places. You can even write them into a review. If you're like, oh, I want to write an Apple Podcast review talking about my unforced errors, go ahead. So long as it includes 5 stars. That's all that I want. To be clear, you're rating this podcast. Best, not the quality of your decision-making. On that note, we will be— let's see, when this drops, we will be in New Orleans at FinCon for a live recording. Yes, the week after this drops. And then we're gonna do Austin and LA in early November. So look for those days. Yes, I'll be on billiondollarcreator.com. Definitely write a review. We have so much more that we want to cover. We just talked too much. And so we're gonna have to save so much good stuff, like a billion-dollar breakdown on Sheila Johnson. For next episode.

Yes, it'll be good.

All right, thanks for hanging out.

Bye, y'all.

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Billion Dollar Creator. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe, share it with your friends, and leave us a review. We read every single one. If there is a company you want us to profile on Billion Dollar Creator, send us a message on social media and we will consider it. Thank you, and we will see you next time.

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