013: Build a Community, Not an Audience with Gina Bianchini

I always think events are like the easiest thing. The hard part is getting everybody there, planning it, all of the logistics. Once people are in the room, you almost have to do nothing and they have a good time cuz they're meeting other people like them that have similar interests.

You can sneak upstairs and go to bed.

Exactly. Your work is done and then you get to just watch people like having a great time together and you're like, I did that. Attention is power and creators harness it better than anyone else, but they're not using that attention to create the biggest impact possible and are vastly undermonetized. Hi, I'm Rachel I'm Michelle Rogers. My co-host Nathan Barry and I believe you can be a billion-dollar creator. Sound impossible? Over the last 10 years, we've followed each other on our own quest to build billion-dollar companies. We've studied creators and seen how entrepreneurs build traditional audiences and use them as a launching pad for a massive business. And it got us thinking, if it can happen for them, it can happen for us. And if it can happen for us, then why not you? Billion Dollar Creator is a show teaching creators how to capture attention and turn it into real wealth. We will deep dive into brands, celebrities, and entrepreneurs who have done it before and show you how you can apply it to your business as an everyday creator. Join us weekly as we learn from both the wild successes and the missed opportunities, the grand gestures and the integral mistakes, and through that, help you become an expert at building your audience on your journey as a billion-dollar creator.

It's good to be here. So we've had a lot of fun with this tour. As we talked about, no one really launches a podcast with a 5-city tour, and we're just so grateful for everyone who came out, all of you for showing up and supporting this. And I think we're gonna have a good conversation tonight. I feel really privileged to be sitting here because there's something that I want to learn about, and that is community and how to build a thriving community. Now, I think that right here I've got 2 people who are legitimately the best in the world at this, right? One of the reasons that we started with the podcast tour is because Rachel said, we're going to build a community for this podcast. From the beginning, and we're going to do it in a way that hasn't been done before. And so I really just want to learn from the two of you. I want to start with what is the thing that you see as the difference between just an audience and a community, and how do you see those two things interacting?

So first of all, one of the things that I think is so interesting about 2023 is that we could ask everybody in this room and everybody would have a different definition of what community is. So I'll tell you my definition of community, which is a community brings people together where the whole goal is not to listen to one person, but to actually build relationships with each other. And that in building relationships with each other, ideally towards a big purpose, motivation for connecting, for learning from each other, for sharing stories, experiences, and ideas. And in doing so, each and every one of us in the community can have in their lives and our lives results in transformation that just aren't possible anywhere else. An audience, as I talk out at you, you might talk back at me, but no one's talking to each other. So, you know, I had an idea. Why don't you guys introduce yourselves to the person sitting next to you if you have not met them yet? We'll just practice this like right here, right now.

What do you think? I love it.

Should we just like take a minute?

I wasn't planning that, but it seems like—

I like it.

Why not?

Hi.

So I gotta say, I just met another Gina, and it is not common to meet another Gina. So I'm very excited. Okay, attention all. I'm very excited by this. You guys, thank you so much for participating. This is so good. So anyway, so to me, what is so magical about community is that it's not just one person's stories. Or a small conversation. It is literally that each and every member of a community has something to offer and something to get from the other members, and that creates infinite more value.

I completely agree with everything that you said. I think that anybody who's not building a community around their business is missing an opportunity. There is a loneliness epidemic in the US for sure. And so most of us feel alone. A lot of people feel alone in their daily lives. And so if you create a community around something that everybody has an interest in, like, you know, it could be a Star Wars community, right? Or it could be a community around a particular type of art or around starting a business, whatever it is. When you bring people together, they don't feel lonely anymore, right? They are on this journey, but they have other people on the journey with them. And so they feel like they have people they can relate to, they can share their dreams with, and they're not going to look at them funny, right? That people that share the same identity as them, all of that is a really important piece of it. So if you have a business that doesn't have a community as part of it, right, you're leaving money on the table and you're leaving an opportunity for you to have your business have so much more impact if you have a community around it. The other benefit of community is accountability, which is huge, right? If we go alone, right, we're going to go a lot slower. It's going to take a lot longer. You know, I'll give you an example. I was transferring my mailing list from another provider to ConvertKit, and it was like, it's going to take a couple days. But because Nathan Barry's my friend, I just texted him and said, hey, can you make that happen faster?

The power of community.

Yes, right? And so like, that's what happens if you have friends who are on the journey with you. Then you can say, hey, how'd you solve this problem, right? Hey, do you know someone that can help me with this? Hey, I'm feeling really down today. And somebody else says, Oh, I've been there. Don't worry, it'll pass. All of that is a huge important part of community and of building a community is to create that accountability so we're all more likely to win if we go together. If we go alone, it's going to take longer and the chances of us quitting are very high. There's actually studies that show, right, that you are 90% more likely to achieve your goal if you've got a community around you. You're going with friends, they're regularly asking you about it, you have regular meetings. All of that actually helps you to accomplish your goals. So community is huge and we should all be doing that. We should all have communities around our businesses, no matter what you sell, where you put your customers together, where they're not just like Gina said, talking to you and you're talking to them, but they're talking to each other.

What's an example of a business that you've seen reach another level of scale because of the community that they formed, right? Where they actually took their customers and networked them together into a community. Really emphasized that side of it and went much further because of it.

This business called Hello7 did that.

Fair.

It is.

But I think your story is an amazing one.

Well, yes. I mean, we went from— we had a mastermind, right? Which I think masterminds and memberships are the exact same thing. Literally, they're the same. It's just the price you charge and how many people are in it. Right? So like masterminds have less people, you charge more, it's more intimate. And then you have larger communities where you charge less, but it's kind of the exact same formula, it's the same recipe. And so we went from having a mastermind, and because of COVID we came up with doing a membership instead, and that blew up our business. So we went from $2 million to $5 million, and then $5 million to $10 million, and continue to grow beyond that from focusing on community. So that's our superpower.

And I think the other thing that happens, I think it happened for you guys too, is when you have a community, and I would even go as far as to say start with a community, you also learn what your community wants. And therefore you have a built-in 24/7 focus group about what to build next and what people want from not just you, but from the purpose that you represent and the purpose that you have brought people together to navigate, to, you know, go through together, to achieve results and transformation together. And so, you know, I think there's any number— we have a number of them on Mighty Networks, but, you know, one that I love is Mary Heffernan and what she's done with Now Five Marys Ranch. So it started as her posting on Instagram about her family's farm where they raised and sold beef and pork. And then what she realized is in bringing this community together, it certainly started first with building an audience, but she realized very quickly that there were family farms and ranches all over the United States that were doing something very similar to her, which was she was the marketer, she was the brand builder, she was the person that was actually selling their family's products, and her husband and children and she were working the ranch. And then she started 5M entrepreneurs to essentially bring— not just teach, but bring people together to do the same thing. Then she started Ranch School, which was basically to teach kids all over the country about life on a ranch and like how to actually do stuff, which she did during COVID And then she launched cookbooks. And now is launching homewares, all because she didn't stop at having an audience. She looked for ways to bring really sort of her supers together, her super consumers or super members, the people that were looking and looking even more closely. And one of the things I think is so important in just that example, and I think what you've done as well, Rachel, is when you want to build a community, the faster it moves from being about you to being about them, and that the identity is about what your members want to get. Again, so that everybody has something to talk about. Like, again, if we just come back to tonight, we're all here for a reason. We're all here because Nathan and Rachel have put together a really amazing— I'm seeing nodding— like, point of view on, wait a second, There is a specific framework for a creator to go from, hey, it's about me and my audience, to wait a second, I have the opportunity to have an even bigger impact on the world around me in the way that I want to have an impact on the world around me. If I can bring people together and say, this is an identity, this is the way in our community and in our culture we are going to interact with each other, and this is how we're going to help each other. This is how we're going to show up. These are the things that we do. And, you know, one of my favorite things in the world is when people recognize that one of the worst things that we do for community, one of the simplest ways to fail at community, it's real simple. When somebody shows up, have community guidelines, which basically make everybody feel like a potential murderer. So it is to me, when I think about it through this lens, this lens, it is the craziest thing to think about the fact that when most people show up at community and you don't know what the vibe is, you don't know what the culture is, it's even harder to kind of figure some of these things out in digital communities. And then there's the community guidelines, which are don't be horrible. Don't be a horrible person. Show up, you're here, and I'm really glad you're here, but it's gonna be really important that you're not horrible. And then, you know, the next question people ask me, why doesn't my community have any engagement? Engagement.

Why? Because you've scared them out of it.

You have scared them out of it.

I think it depends on the community though, because we have very strong guidelines in the club.

But you also have a culture that says, this is why we're here.

Yes, exactly.

And this is how we interact with each other. And I think that's actually— most people lead with the guidelines.

Yes.

For most communities where it's not clear what the culture is or clear what the purpose is, That is the problem.

Yes. If you want your business to do better, build a community brand instead of a personal brand, right? Like we're all taught, like that's why you say you a lot in your copywriting, right? You're talking about the person and you're trying to apply it to them. And when you have a community and you make it all about the community and you ask the community, what do you want? And then you go build that thing and give it to them, right? Then you're creating that, that two-way relationship and people will be obsessed with the community brand, not you. And that is infinitely better, right? People get so much more out of it and then they get to create it. I feel like our community is far beyond me, you know, it's about the members of the community and they shape it. We survey them every quarter, we ask them a ton of questions. We're asking them questions all the time about what they want. I even asked them, like, we have an upcoming conference and I said, who do you want to speak? And they told me and I said, okay, great, let me go get her, you know? And then I did, right? So it's like you said, it's a focus group. You're making it about them and and they're happy to be there, right? Because it's a community built specifically for them instead of them having to buy into you personally, right? They get to buy into each other, and that's so much more powerful than just a personal brand. So, and it will— it's not just an altruistic thing. It is an altruistic thing, but it also makes you a lot of money, you know? So like both of those things can be true.

I think one thing in that is who is the hero of the story?

Yes, exactly.

It's something that you did. You said before the stop in Austin, you were up in New York doing a brand photo shoot and most of the photo shoot was your community members, right? Like the banner on your website, if I understand, does it even have you in it?

No, I'm not in the photo.

And that, like, that's very purposeful. Like something we do at ConvertKit is we want to make our customers, make creators the heroes of the brand. And so there's people here like Kimberly Brooks, Kay He is here. Where you can go on our site and watch documentaries about them telling their stories. And that's very important. It's much harder to build a community when you're constantly saying, "Look at me." You know, "Oh, you don't need to meet each other, right? Pay attention to me." But if instead you're making those connections and saying, "This person is amazing. Let me tell their story. Have you met her? Have you learned about what he had to go through to accomplish his dreams?" That is so, so powerful. If you've ever read Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey, You're not trying to be the hero. You're trying to be the guide. You're not Luke Skywalker. You're Yoda, right? And that's where it really makes a big difference.

This is why I'm always harping on testimonials, like get the testimonials, get the case studies from your customers, and then tell those stories constantly. You can start a community by telling your own story. Then people are going to relate to your story and they'll join your community and those will be the early folks. But then after a while, your community wins will come out of your community. Stories will come out of your community. and then you start telling those stories instead of your own, right? You wanna have that shift at some point so that now you're building a community brand and not just your personal brand. And that's an element of building a billion-dollar creator business, right? Is not just having a personal brand, but really having a, a larger brand that serves your people.

Yeah. I talk about it as moving from hero to host.

I like that.

I like that too, cuz that's what you call your Mighty Networks customers, right? Hosts.

Yeah.

Wording is very important. And I think sometimes we're just, we throw words out there because it was the version that, you know, something that we heard someone else say, or it's the common thing. And I get the feeling that the word host is very deliberate. Like that did not happen by accident. Tell me more.

Absolutely not. Because when you think about any community, especially, you know, we have communities on Mighty starting from scratch. Every day. And so for a community to start from scratch, you kind of need 5 things, but you need somebody to do those 5 things and really start, put the seeds in place. And that person is a host. And that's why, you know, from day 1, whenever I saw someone new come into our company and want to refer to either the hosts or the members of a community on Mighty as a user, I was like, stop. There are no users on Mighty. There are hosts and there are members. And if you would like to change the name of member or host to instructor and student or workshop facilitator and workshop participants, you can. But we are not users. We are hosts and we are members. And And that has permeated everything we do.

I like that. I think it's important to tell people more about your experience and why you're an expert on community. It's not just because you're the CEO of Mighty Network, right? You have some other experience as well. And so I call this the Put Some Respect on It segment because I think it's important to know people's backgrounds. So will you share a little bit about what you did before Mighty Network?

Sure. So, well, I'll start with the fact that I am absolutely obsessed with breaking down and building back up. How do people come to community? How can you create a community from scratch? Creating a community from scratch is so much easier than most people think, than all people think, actually. And my mission is to make it radically easier, create communities that run themselves. And how I got here is back in the first wave of social networks and social networking companies. 20s, I founded a company called Ning, which gave people a way to create their own communities. And we built Ning to— I, I see Kyle in the, the audience— but 100 million people around the world using it, 3 million networks created, 300,000 active on a monthly basis. And then when we sold Ning, I wasn't done. In fact, I hadn't even really gotten started, because the thing about community is that Technology is a great innovator in terms of what we can do and how we come together. And I know even like 15 years into social networks and social media and all of these things, and we're lonelier than we've ever been and we're more anxious and we're depressed. And here's what I know to be true. I believe that the next 5 years is going to be a renaissance in being able to discover the best in other people faster than at any other point in time, and to be able to bring the best of ourselves to rooms like this, to people both online and in real life. And I got here by being absolutely obsessed with this. So Ning, we reached a lot of people. Mighty today. In fact, actually, this was something that I made my team look at because I knew I was coming here. We have— speaking of making money, because the other thing that you also didn't mention is people pay attention to what they pay for. People pay attention to what they pay for. So we have actually seen that when you are able to create a big purpose for your community and bring people together around a common purpose, an interest, passion, a goal, a result, a lifestyle, and you charge for it, it's not just about making you money. It's actually about helping more people get results and transformation that they won't be able to get on their own. And so $370 million of creator earnings this year on Mighty. But every day, why is this growing so fast for us? It's because we start from a very different place, that it's not about starting with an audience. We actually believe that if you start with a community, not only can you make money faster, and because you're getting people results and transformation, not just from you, but you as the host and facilitating the connections and relationships between your members. Guess what happens? People talk about it. They talk about it to their friends. They talk about it to the people they meet on the internet. They talk about it to people that they want to help, that they want to have an impact with. And so I would actually argue that if you want to build an audience, starting with community can accelerate the speed in which you can have more people come into your community, more people come into the results and transformation that you're able to generate. And really, a community is, in many respects, people talking about you when you're not in the room. And guess what happened? Like, a brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. If you are able to help people make connections as a host, You are gonna do a lot less work. You're gonna help a lot more people, and you are gonna watch something magically happen because it's the stories and experiences and ideas of the people that you've brought together.

That's a very good point, that community, like, you can actually do that first before you build an audience, cuz that's actually what I did, which I've never thought about it that way. But when you said that, it made me think of that because one of the first things that I did was I would just join other people's community and I was a lawyer, so I would just make myself useful in the community. That was my goal. And so I joined people's Facebook groups where like there were a lot of entrepreneurs or small business owners, and then I would like search the group. And this was not a lot of time. I probably spent like 2 hours a week because I had little young kids and I was practicing law. So I was like writing contracts at midnight, you know, mostly because I was procrastinating because I hated doing it. But that's besides the point. I would go into these Facebook groups and I would literally search the term trademark copyright, contracts, attorney, legal, lawyer, right? So that I could find all the posts that were in the last week that were asking legal questions or within my expertise. And then I would just answer them and give them like free advice. And then they would say, you know, not all of them, but a lot of them would say, I need a lawyer to solve this problem for me. I want to hire you. And so I got a lot of my clients just by making myself useful in other people's communities. And then the next thing I did was create a free Facebook group, right? It was like a free community for me to, you know, engage with people. So yeah, so like creating community can come first and it was, you know, a way to sort of gather people and connect with people all the time. And I just found like sharing there in the community was a little bit easier than, you know, like I could share in the community every day, but it was harder to email every day. Or I could even share in the community 3 times a day, but I can't necessarily send 3 emails a day, right? So it was a way to like, you know, just engage with people.

But you can with ConvertKit.

Send emails 3 times a week with ConvertKit and then post several times a day in Mighty Networks.

I actually use both of these products, so that's why we have you surrounded here. So a lot of the listeners for the show are creators who have built really established audiences. It might be, you know, on social or on email, these platforms that are not inherently community-focused. Right? And so if I'm like, hypothetically, I've got 50,000 subscribers on Instagram and 20,000 on my newsletter, and I'm like, okay, what do I do in very practical terms to turn that into a community rather than just an audience?

So I got an answer for you. Let me preface this by saying social media and writing is hard. What is fascinating to me is that what stops people from creating communities is that they think it's as hard as social media. And so it actually, the biggest myth is that a community is as hard as another channel that you have to figure out. Because it's like, in a community, there's going to be some kind of kabuki algorithm you got to figure out and you got to pray to the Facebook group gods and hope that they like don't do something different. And also there's going to be some weirdo who shows up in your free Facebook group because Facebook's culture is drama.

Truly. Like, the algorithm—

I was trying to find a nice way to say that.

No, let's not find a nice way. The algorithm, it rewards drama.

And I'll give you an example of this. So Yoga with Adriene, started a Facebook group and started a Facebook group, 35,000 members. And they were finding that on the topic of yoga, people were coming in, in their words, hot.

Oh, so like hot yoga?

Not that kind of hot.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Not that kind of hot. So people were coming in, and in part it's because the way Facebook is set up, where a Facebook group, it's one post, so it's the most charged post, is showing up next to your political views and your, like, friends' baby pictures and, like, somebody graduating from high school and somebody's wedding, but then another, you know, totally charged political issue.

And 24 ads. Don't forget the 24 ads.

Oh, and 24 ads. And so they came to Mighty, created their own Find What Feels Good, Coola community app, whole sort of own world. And what they did is they started testing posting a question or a challenge in both places. Fundamentally different answers, fundamentally different connections. Fundamentally different ways that people showed up. And a lot of people don't believe— oh, by the way, happy ending. They moved and now they have over 230,000 members. Because again, what's the other myth? Well, I got to go where people are. I got to go where people are.

I've said that. I literally have said that.

Yeah, nobody's going to follow me to like my own app or my own community. And I I am here to tell you I have got the data behind me that says yes, they do. And in part, what is so beautiful about community is that you have the opportunity— any of us have the opportunity in 2023 and 2024 to say, I am going to host a community. I am going to create this kind of culture where I want my members to be able to show up for each other in these ways, you can create your own culture that will in fact drive engagement because the software has gotten good enough and is only getting better from here in terms of being able to surface the most relevant members to each other. Break the ice, bring people together for interesting challenges and collabs and workshops and everything in between. And so coming back to the question, Okay, great, Gina, how do I do it? You need 5 things. 5 things, super easy. Number 1, you need a big purpose. There has got to be a reason for your members to show up, and it's not to learn, share, and grow together. That's like Peanuts adult voice. Nobody knows what that means. Nobody knows what community means. So it is getting specific about who you're bringing together, what you're going to do together, and what members are going to get for doing those things. So it's like you got to answer the question, what's in it for me? Why would I show up? Well, number one, you want to be really specific about who your community serves. Rachel, I think you do such a great job of this. It's good that I know how to project to the back of the room, especially with a microphone. I'm competing with Venice is a happening place. Some sweet tunes. Some like slow, super chill vibes.

It's very California.

It's very California. I mean, who's not trying to talk about community design next to some sweet tunes?

That's right.

But I'm going to keep going. So big purpose, clearer you are with who it's for. So even if your community is not for somebody, They can see it. They're like, oh, that's cool. Now I'm still interested about the fact that ideal member, the people who need your community the most right now, all caps, right now being in all caps, and then what you're going to do together. So, okay, I can picture myself doing those things or I can picture other people doing those things. That's pretty cool. So that we can— what are people going to be able to do as a result of being in your community? So that's number one. Number two, The best communities are about progress. So what are your— we talk about it as your year in the life, the year in the life of your community. And starts with your members, which is what can your members do a year from now that they can't do today? And here's what's really fun about that as a brainstorm. First of all, it's just really fun. And then second of all, the next part of that is to say, well, wait a second. If my members a year from now can do that, what does that mean for me? And then you have this moment— wait, is this a— are we allowed to swear?

You are absolutely allowed.

Then you can have this moment of like, holy shit, not only am I having this incredible impact on people's lives because they're going to be able to do all this cool stuff a year from now that they're not able to do today, but I'm going to be able to invest more in that. Because again, people pay attention to what they pay for. So now I've got this whole framework for how I'm gonna be able to help more people. They're gonna be able to help themselves. And I'm gonna get the resources, not so I can go buy a Lamborghini, but so that I can invest to make more epic experiences for my members and myself. And it just starts to feel really good. I mean, it sort of starts to feel like a flywheel. I don't know. Kind of feels that way, right? Okay. So then we've got progress. We got the year in the life. We got 3 simple things to execute from there. Monthly themes. Why monthly themes? Because people get bored. And a monthly theme—

That's so true.

People get bored. So a monthly theme is there to create novelty. And you can unveil it and it can be a—

Oh, we do a whole thing.

Oh, you do a whole thing. Because it's fun to do a whole thing. So monthly themes also give members another thing that they can go and talk about with each other because, again, you're building a culture. So monthly themes all then ladder up to that year in the life. What are your members able to do a year from now that they're not able to do today? Then what are you able to do a year from now that you're not able to do today? Again, laddering up to that big purpose. So monthly themes is there for novelty. A weekly calendar is there for habit. So Tuesdays at 9 AM, that's when we post our Give/Ask Day. So we'll have a member that we are going to profile, and it's going to be why are they awesome, what are they here to give other members of the community, and what is their one ask for the community. And that order, by the way, is really important. Or, you know, Thursdays at 4 PM is when we livestream. And we just, we hop on, we talk about what is the question of the week or what is the topic of the week that probably ladders up to that monthly theme, which then ladders up to that year in life. And you guys are with me, you're getting it right. Okay. So that's the weekly calendar. Here's the other benefit of a weekly calendar. Your work has a multiplier effect because if you do the same thing, the same time every week, even if somebody doesn't come back into your community, they got that notification. They got that email. And then what happens if you do this 4 weeks in a row? They kind of come to expect it. They kind of like it. So even if they might not be coming back, you're building your brand and you're bringing them value and you're doing it with less work. Last piece, daily actions, daily polls and questions. What's that there for? Polls and questions, by far our most popular feature across all of the networks on Mighty. And the questions in the polls are there to help your members meet each other. So that's the connection. It's not to give advice to each other. It's for them to be able to share stories, experiences, ideas. Because here's the problem with advice. Advice shuts the conversation down.

I mean, and some of it's bad.

Some of it's bad. But what's also—

I mean, let's be real. Sometimes I see it and I'm like, okay, Okay, I'm gonna jump in. You're like, I'm gonna jump in here because, you know, that's not what she should do.

And this is the thing that, like, if you think about it, it's like in your relationships, we've all kind of had that moment where we got like really like amped up because we had too much caffeine, not speaking from personal experience here, and it's like, oh my God, you should totally break up with them. And then they don't, and then it's kind of awkward like afterwards, and you're like, oh yeah. That's advice. But if you share your story or your experience or your ideas, you've got a whole different— it's a whole different ballgame. So those 5 things are it. You can literally put a community, once you get these things going, on autopilot because it's not about posting 7 times a day and like being in every conversation. It's about, hey, We want to set this community up so that you're getting value from each other and I can go upstairs and go to bed. And that is fundamentally different than what, like, every major social media platform says about how to build an audience.

I love that. And I think that it's so much easier to build, like, community, like, if you have people connecting with each other or events. I always think events are, like, the easiest thing. The hard part is getting everybody there, planning it, all of the logistics. Once people are in the room, you almost have to do nothing and they have a good time. Like, because they're meeting other people like them that have similar interests.

You can sneak upstairs and go to bed.

Exactly. Your work is done. And then you get to just watch people like having a great time together and you're like, I did that. I'm going to sit back and enjoy it.

I was really tracking with everything that you were saying because I'm seeing a bunch of the mistakes that we've made in—

You've done none of that?

You know, I'm here to learn. Both in running our own private community for ConvertKit and then also, you know, in the Facebook groups and all of that. And just without that intentional structure, without that flywheel, the community ends up going all these different directions. People are just there for support requests or, hey, I'm stuck with this problem in my business. They're not forming connections. There's all these other things. And so it's on one hand, it's, you know, simple or trivial to go through like, okay, do these 5 things. But I can say from personal experience that if you don't do that, then you absolutely don't have a community. You have a hot mess and like it will actually cause problems for your business.

Like, it'd be bad for your brand.

Yeah.

The reason why we're talking about community is because we want you to be billion-dollar creators, and we know that a community is a jumping-off point to help you do that. Right. And we share on the podcast examples of people who have done this, taken their audience, their community, who are engaged, who are willing to take action, right? You know, buy their products or support their products or even fund a Kickstarter so that the product can even be created, right? That all of that, becoming a billion-dollar creator is a lot easier if you have a community. So one example, Nathan, maybe you can tell this story, is Joel Runyon, right? We haven't shared his story yet on the podcast. Do you wanna talk about him and how he went from community to products.

Yes.

Yeah, so Joel is someone that I've been friends with since I think 2012 or 2013. To give you an idea of what he does, the first event that I went to, this conference called the World Domination Summit, which by the way is—

what's the— what was the goal of the conference?

It's really hard to tell.

Great question. I've been there and I don't know.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what it's about.

World domination.

Inside the— when I went there for the first time, it was 2012. I was going there for year 2, and it's in Portland. I didn't know anyone in the community, and I'm like, okay, I just have to show up and go with it.

That was my first time there too, you know.

Okay. And we did not—

did you guys meet there?

No, no, we did not meet.

No, we met years later. Well, we talked online, and then we met in person at another event years later.

So I fly into Portland, and I'm taking the MAX train into the city, And I knew that there's like 1,000 people going to this conference all showing up at the same time. And so I'm like, surely I'm just going to run into people, but I didn't want to say hi. And someone had that like creator sort of vibe and they started talking to me and they're like, "Oh, what are you in town for?" And I said, "Oh, the World Domination Summit. Are you here for that as well?" And they went, "The World Dominatrix Summit?" I was like, "No, I guess you're not here for the same event." Never mind. So anyway, at the World Domination Summit, which was put on by Chris Guillebeau, and it was really just about living an amazing life and serving your community. Their theme was actually community, adventure, and service, right? Was their three themes for it. But Joel Runyon was there. I didn't go to this, but to give you an idea, he hosted a meetup for this, as many people did. But his meetup was everyone went bungee jumping. To give you an idea of what type of person Joel is. So Joel created this business called Impossible, and he owns the trademarks for it. If you ever want to ask him about what it's like to be sued by a billion-dollar company over trademarks, he's been fighting that battle for years. And like, more power to him because he's an amazing creator, and I love that he is fighting and defending his trademarks against like a giant food brand. But you'll never guess who I'm talking about. But so He's built this community around people doing things that are said to be impossible. And so he has gone to run a marathon— not a marathon, an ultramarathon— on every continent. And so he's done that in Antarctica, you know, and the other 6 continents.

But specifically—

way to just summarize that. That was a great summary.

Story type.

Very good.

It could have gotten out of hand. But so, like a community of people doing things that they believe were impossible for a bigger purpose, right? So he ran 7 ultramarathons on 7 continents to build 7 schools, to raise money to build 7 schools with Pencils of Promise, right? And so he's going on this epic quest and he's helping other people to do it. And so you'll see people wearing these shirts that say impossible, but there's a line through and I see this all the time on social media where he's built this brand and I think he's always been in search of what the product is for it. Sometimes you see people building a brand and you're like, "I don't think that's going anywhere." The name isn't quite right or something just doesn't— or they're not thinking about it big enough. What I love is that Joel has always been thinking about it really big from the beginning and it's kind of been this brand in search of the right product. And he was hanging out with us in Austin at our event, and it was just a great opportunity to catch up on what he's been doing. And so he's been building all of these supplements and other products around doing big things, like being a high-performance athlete. He has a sleep product called Impossible Sleep, which is about— it's a magnesium supplement and it's got all of those things that are going to help you sleep really well. But what I think is interesting is that he's taken it from digital products early on, you know, in this community, and then now he's focusing on these types of products that can scale really well. And there's no reason that he, he can't build something that's absolutely massive. And so he's got a few of these early products that, you know, are now doing, I think, low single-digit millions in revenue. And I, it's just one of those brands that when I see it, I'm like, okay, that is going to be a billion-dollar brand. And the biggest reason why, like, the thing that I admire the most about Joel is he is absolutely relentless. Like, how many people, when you come up with a perfect brand, you own the trademarks from it, you like lock down all of your IP— we give them a quick rant really quick as an IP lawyer on why they should lock down their IP. It's very important.

Well, yes, because otherwise you will have to— you don't want these large companies coming after you. Right? So protecting yourself obviously is what you need to do. And if you're going to build a whole brand, like imagine if I built this whole Hello7 brand, never protected the trademark, and then somebody else builds a business with the same name, and then I have to prove that I was there first. If they register it first, they're gonna get the registered trademark, and now I'm on defense, right? And I've got to fight them on it, and it's extremely expensive. It is way, way cheaper to just register the trademark, like spend the $2,500. You know, if you think that's expensive, try a trademark lawsuit, find out how expensive that is.

Yeah. So when I look at these attributes of what it's going to take to build, like to be a billion-dollar creator and build a brand on that level, like I think the most important trait is just this resilience and perseverance. Like to give you an idea, Joel owns the trademarks for Impossible. He is being sued by Impossible Foods and he's been fighting a battle with them for years and years. And he is an individual creator.

That's the thing about lawsuits too. To, they take forever.

Right. It's been appealed and all of this stuff. And he is absolutely going to win because he will not back down. And so then like this brand would be massive by now, except that he's been like defending what he had first.

Time, money, energy.

Yeah. And so I just think he's got the ideal brand and this like absolutely unstoppable resilience. And so like seeing the combination of those things, like he's going to turn this into Like, Impossible is going to be a brand way bigger than like Onnit or any of these other like health and fitness brands because of the way he's going about it and because he's just never going to quit.

And also because I gave him a great idea the other day.

What'd you give him?

What'd you give him? That part too. You were going to say that too, right, Nathan Barry? But I was telling him around his sleep product Speaking of community, right? He has this physical product. I think you should add community to everything. Software, a physical product, anything, right? Like whatever you sell, you should add community around it. So he has this sleep product that like helps you sleep better and you have to like, I think you take it for like 7 days or something before you start to see the impact. And so I was like, you should do a challenge, right? Because he has this trial pack.

For 7? Yes.

And he was like, I'm going to send this trial pack and people can try it for 7 days. And I was like, cool, right? You're gonna send it to them, they might try it once and be like, mm, that doesn't taste that great, never mind, right? Or maybe it tastes delicious, I don't know, but then they forget on the third day and they don't ever get the thing. So I'm like, it's much more likely that people will actually do it if you sell them a challenge instead of the product and include the product in the challenge, right? So like sell them a $39 challenge where, you know, they have to show up every day for 7 days but in community. So now there's a whole bunch of people that are like, we about to get our sleep on, right? Right? Together. They get this product in the mail just in time so that they can be in this challenge together. And then like maybe they're so-so participating, but on day 3, all these people are like, oh my God, I had the best sleep of my life. Right? If you're a middle-aged person, like if particularly if you're like 35 plus, sleep is— there's nothing you brag about more than when you get a good night's sleep. Right? Like if I get 8 hours, if I wake up and I'm like, what? Did I just sleep 8 hours? I'm like, Mom, guess what? I slept 8 hours. Robert, right? My best friend. Guess what? Guess how much I slept, right? I'm like celebrating. So they're going to be celebrating in the group. And then the people who aren't participating are going to be like, let me get this win too. I want 8 hours of sleep. And then they'll start doing it.

And all of the other stories of all the other people who are in the challenge, are why you're going to remember to take it. Yes, exactly. And that's, I think, one of the most interesting things as well, and is that when you push yourself to build a community or build a challenge, or like, what's something— you have to actually, as part of it, again, have that big purpose, have that reason. Why is someone going to care? And your physical products get better and more meaningful and more memorable if they live in a community of why you should care. And so that bigger purpose of whether it's sleep, whether it's how are you living a possible from impossible life. Again, what are you able to do a year from now that you can't do today? What is that thing that is impossible in your life? And I think this is what you're saying, Nathan Barry, it's a powerful idea that then the physical product is an ingredient into that bigger purpose.

Exactly, because no one cares. Like, this is what I tell my community all the time. No one gives a shit about what you're selling, okay? They don't care about your product, they don't care about your service, they don't care about your brand, right? They care about themselves. So how can you make it relevant for them? How can you make it matter for them? And I think, like, I want to join this challenge, so that's why I need Joel to create it. I mean, I sleep well, but I could sleep better I love that.

And to me, the biggest shift that I've had in my life, professionally and personally, is that simple phrase, "So that we can." Because "so that we can" is why should you care? It's the answer to why we should care. So can I just add one other thing about a great name? Don't try to create an acronym too early. There is a community on a different platform. So right there hurts me, hurts me. But I get an email from them that is CLI. I shouldn't even say that because that's probably mean that like somebody is like listening to this because again, they probably want to be a billion-dollar creator and I just just called them out, but I don't remember what it stands for. They are in my inbox every morning and I don't remember what it stands for. When you're thinking about a name, this is again, Rachel, I love your brand because there's a purpose behind it.

Yes.

Even ConvertKit, it's kit that makes me convert people so that they do stuff.

Don't try to change it.

Don't try to change it. So I just— it's one of these things about "so that we can" gets us out of our own head, gets us out of our own story, gets us out of like, "Let me tell you all the amazing things about this supplement because it has magnesium," and somebody is like, "What's magnesium again? I think that's great," versus like, "I'm gonna put you in a group of people that are having the absolute best sleep of their lives. You know what they're doing?" when they have the absolute best sleep of their lives? They also talk about it, but also they're more witty. They're more charming. They come up with better ideas. They are active and engaged, and people like them more. Because you know what people don't like is when you show up on 4 hours of sleep and you're an asshole.

Correct.

Nobody likes that person.

Which I am if I only have 4 hours of sleep. It's true.

It's this simple shift.

See, it's very relatable. So we call the members of our club Shmillionaires, and that word comes from Cardi B. She was the first person I heard say it. She recorded this video saying, I'm a Shmillionaire, and I'm like, oh, I love that. And I think if you're going to name something, right, name it. It should be aspirational. Like, What do people want to accomplish? Where do they want to go? And name it that, right? So I call my, you know, members Shmillionaires. And actually, if I remember correctly, I might have said this a couple times and then they nominated this as their name, and it's Shmillies for short, right? But like, I call them Shmillionaires even if they're not a millionaire yet, right? Because they're on their way to that. So it's like, focus on the aspirational part of it, right? Because if you talk about like, You know, like if you talk about not getting sleep, that's depressing and sad. Nobody wants to be associated with that. But if you focus on best sleep ever or whatever, sleep heroes, I don't know, whatever you want to call it, that's where people want to go. And so they want to be associated with that.

There's something in there about identity that's a really important thing in community. Seth Godin has this line where he talks about the best communities are formed around one like one phrase, people like us do things like this, right? And so you get to describe what people like us is, you know, and then what do we do, right? This is how we operate.

And I would add that last piece, so that we can.

Okay.

So that we can. So I think it's 3 pieces. It's who do you bring together? So that's people like us. 2, these are things that we do. So that we can. And the way a brain works is they're listening— they, all of us, we're always listening for those 3 things. Is this relevant to me? Yes, no. Can I vividly and viscerally feel what the thing is? That's the, that to line. And then so what do we get for it? What's in it for me? And when you make that hot shit sexy, you can attract anyone to a community and they show up excited to build those relationships with each other. I think this is one of the things that's really interesting. The absolute best communities very quickly get to what is the identity of the member. And so you've done that beautifully. And it's one of these things where The faster that you can, again, start with your members. What are they able to do a year from now that they're not able to do today? And what is an identity that again captures that motivation? That's where the magic happens.

I love that. Before we go to questions, which we'll do in just a second, so think of what you're going to ask. Who are maybe one or two other examples of creators who are building something on a much bigger scale than they normally would because of using community as a throughput.

Yeah, I'll give an example. Nancy Anderson is a celebrity trainer, half a million followers, and could have turned that into sort of the same type of celebrity training business that you've seen from lots of other celebrity trainers. Actually created something different, which is called the Birth Recovery Center. And the Birth Recovery Center is digital, And it is about how are you, you know, preparing for birth and how are you recovering from it. It is an incredibly successful business.

Why?

Because it's not just about Nancy Anderson. It's about what it is for. And the name is super clear. Again, you kind of know who it's for. You probably know what you're going to do together. And the 'so that we can' is also really clear all through the name alone. And I think that is such a powerful example because she has built an 8-figure business and growing rapidly by really starting not with her following or her personal brand, but what the member is going to get from being a part of that community.

I love that. So good. Another example that comes to mind on somebody who's great at building community is Pinky Cole, who is based in Atlanta. She has a restaurant called Slutty Vegan. She had one restaurant and now she has several. There's always a line out the door regularly. Like, they're always posting videos. She has about half a million followers as well. But one of the things that that's, I think, unique about her is that she is not just doing social media like kind of being outward-facing, like posting stuff, you know, and just talking about herself and not really sharing anything else. She's using her platform to always be engaging with her audience, and so she'll ask them questions, ask them what they need. She'll, you know, give them things, right, do giveaways and things like that. She— what she said in the past is that— I don't know if she's still doing this, I hope she's not— but she responds to every DM. But the thing The thing that's most interesting, so Slutty Vegan is her, like, first business, or like, not her first business, but it's the business that she's most known for, valued at $100 million, like, last year. It's probably already worth more than that. But she has a second business that she created called American Sesh. And the idea behind it is you have a sponsor, so she gets, like, a corporate sponsor to sponsor this experience. She gets celebrities in the room through, like, her network and her relationships. Partnerships, and then she has regular creators who are just part of her community. And the way that you get in is you just raise your hand and say you want to be in, and then she DMs you a blue couch emoji. That's like, that's how you know you're in, right? And so it's like, awesome. Yeah, so it's a small group of community where like regular folks get to meet, you know, celebrities, and then they're sharing their businesses and their ideas and they're masterminding with them. So she's there, These celebrities are there. And so the way that she's taking this to the next— because I'm like, what's your plan with this, right? This is interesting, but it also doesn't seem scalable. But here's what I think she's doing. I don't know for sure, but I know she's posted recently with like the head of Netflix. So she's— and she's talked about, like hinted at that she has a TV show coming. I think the TV show is American Sesh. I think she's going to like create these situations and then and put them out like as episodes of a TV show. And she's doing the first live session where it's like usually these are closed sessions, right, where the celebrities are there, the small group of entrepreneurs are there.

Do they take video during it or is it just like—

it's like completely closed. They take their phones and it's like this really, this place of sharing and growing businesses and solving your challenges as an entrepreneur and figuring out like your next level, creating the network and the relationships right? But now, for the first time, they're doing this in front of a studio audience, and it happens to be at like a television studio where it's being filmed. No way!

That's such a cool thing.

Yeah, so it's this Sunday is like the first time they're doing it. Sold out. They sold tickets to it, and I have a feeling that's going to be the TV show. But just such a genius idea and such a way to serve her audience to say, I have this dope network and I'm going to bring this network to you.

And I think that's such a great idea.

Yeah, it's like a great way to create that community, and it's a— she gives back in major ways. And I think that that's how she's building community.

I, you know, one other thing, just as you were sharing that example, that I think is a super important thing to also keep in mind about kind of the moment that we're in, which is if there's one thing that I could leave you all with, it's things that seem hard are getting radically easier and will continue to get radically easier. You have the ability to do more of them. For example, that 7-day challenge can then turn into an Impossible membership, and that Impossible membership probably could break down into different challenges or quests that happen in whether it's different workshops or different trainings. And then obviously there's a certification in running those kinds of quests, those kinds of trainings or challenges. And in the past, you used to have to do these in 14 different places in 17 different ways. You had to have a big team to do them. And what I see so clearly from my little perch in Silicon Valley is that software is going to increasingly make all of these things smoother, more natural, easier, where members are able to help each other. To be able to do more of these things. And the power of that billion-dollar creator is understanding that value journey from the first time they learn about you, the reason they show up, and then taking them through that value journey as people are able to really connect in smaller groups. In more conscious and intentional ways to what? Achieve results and transformation that none of us can get on our own.

I love that. All right, let's go ahead and take a few questions. I think we have another mic.

Hi, my question is, you've got your hosts, you've got your schmillies, of which I'm one. I don't know what you call them, convert kidders?

That's a good question. Internally, it's Convert Kittens.

Convert Kittens? First of all, you should definitely make that a thing.

That's amazing.

That's really good, actually.

And we have lots of Slack channels. There's Convert Kids, where you can post photos of your kids. There's Convert Pups. There's a whole series of internal Slack channels.

This is amazing. My question is, so So it's like a multiplier, right? It's like community, but how do you work or think about making us or them the star?

How do you make them the star?

Yeah. So it's like building community, but you're, as a billion-dollar creator, you're no longer building your own community. You're trying to multiply all the convert kitties. So this, I, so I love this. So when you think about your community, so first of all, if you're thinking about it as who's following you, the, like that's your audience, that's your audience. If I could offer the reframe, it would be a community is how you are hosting and facilitating the people who are following you becoming collaborators and friends and network that gets more valuable to every one of your members with each new person who joins. So you become a convener, you become a host, you become a facilitator for your members to build relationships with each other. And it doesn't mean that there isn't a place for you to be able to build that audience to bring people in. And every massive Silicon Valley social network, now social media platforms, did the exact opposite. They started with the community, or in nerdling, a network effect, and built out the network effect. And by building out that network effect and thinking about it as, oh my gosh, as more and more people are getting results and transformation, and by the way, paying for the attention that they want to give to it, that then scales out. If we're talking about billion-dollar businesses, there are more examples of billion-dollar businesses being created through network effects than any audience. Full stop. Period. Mic drop. But I'm not going to drop the mic because it's somebody else's. And I'm not going to suggest it's a conspiracy theory, but But there's a lot of people in my world that are like, yeah, you guys just keep building audiences on my platform. It's cool. And each and every one of us have the opportunity to do the opposite.

Can you explain what network effects is, Nathan? Because I think some people don't know.

Yeah, I'm probably going to forget the dictionary definition, but it's—

Oh, I can give it.

Go for it.

A network effect is a network that gets more valuable with each new person who joins and contributes. So, as each new person joins and contributes to a network, the network itself gets more valuable because there's more information. Right. Remember.

Yeah.

And then each of those members are connected to more people who could come in.

So, one way to think about it is if you have a community where we have— it's small, it's intimate, and there's something special there, and if we add more people, it's going to lose value. That is not a network effect. There are many communities like that where you're like, "Oh, this is special because the 12 of us are here and if we went to 100, it would get worse for everyone, so we're not going to do that." But a network effect is where people are like, "Wow, this is amazing. We need to bring in other people so it gets more amazing." And so, some communities have network effects and some communities have have the inverse of network effects, right, where it's actually getting worse with scale. So it's an interesting thing to think about.

One of the things that I think is important to make it get better for everybody else is to be a good host. And being a good host means being in charge. And I think a lot of people don't realize that— leading and saying and setting ground rules and saying like, okay, when you're part of this community, here's what we're going to do, here's how we relate to each other, here's opportunities to connect, right? And like leading the community. Because otherwise, like, people give over their time, they give over their energy, like, you're taking up space in their life. And if you allow chaos, now it's chaotic and they've given themselves over to chaos. It's like if you go to a dinner party, right, and like, you know, the host is not guiding people, like, you know, they put food out, but it's like, can we eat it, or is it time to eat? You know what I mean? It's like, tell us what we're supposed to be doing now, right? Do I take my shoes off? Do I not?

Like, can I sit on the furniture?

Yes, laying the ground rules. And there's a great book about this, which is The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker, which I highly recommend. And she's an amazing facilitator for all different types of scenarios, but she really teaches you how to lead an event. And being a good host means letting everybody know what's going to be happening and then leading them through it. Otherwise, everyone's trying to figure it out on their own. And if people have come for you and you're the host, but then you let somebody else lead, right, that they didn't come for, and now there's like this different experience that's not on brand, people won't like that. So I think that's how you have to make sure that people are continuing to get value as it grows. And the way that you do that is by being a good host and really thinking through what is the experience people are going to have and facilitating it happening.

Absolutely. And I would just, I would build on that by shifting it to, and how How do I set the culture?

Exactly.

How do I set the culture? And again, if you think about big purpose, year in the life, monthly themes, a weekly calendar, and daily actions or daily posing questions, that's how you build a culture.

Yeah. And like for— so we have community guidelines and we didn't at first, and I think when you're referring to community, you know how you join a group and it's like, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. right, like that kind of list. That's not really what we do. We have a whole orientation.

Yeah, here's our culture.

And a series of videos that's like, here's the language that we— here's what schmilly means. Here's how to spell it. There's no C, you know? All my schmillies know. And like, you know, here's some of the language that we use. Here's language that we don't use. Here's how we're being inclusive, right? Here's how we're being committed to anti-racism in this community, right? This— you don't have to— certain things that we're not— you don't have to defend yourself or educate people about your identity, right? We'll do that. You don't have to do that part. So it's like letting them know, here's how we get down here, particularly because there's not a lot of communities where it's a diverse community and every identity is being centered and celebrated. And that is the goal of the club, which is unique. It's rare to find that. And so that's new and different. And we used to have people of different identities fighting each other, right? And we're like, okay, we don't want the oppression Olympics. We're all in this together. Right? How can we support each other, right? How can we celebrate each other's identities? And teaching them how to— when you are the person with the most privilege in the conversation, fall back and hear the person who has the least privilege in the conversation. They don't know to do that. We have to teach them that. And so that's what we do. And all of that sets the culture. And because the culture is set now, they enforce it with each other, so we don't have to anymore. You modeled We modeled it, yes. And then they did it, and now they will check each other, right? So in the beginning, when we set these ground rules, there were a lot of people that got kicked— not a lot, but quite a few people got kicked out because I will do it. I have no problem.

And here's the thing I would build on is that if you are building or if you have built on existing social media platforms, one way to think about it is each of those platforms has its own culture. There are things that people expect to be able to do and then expect to get in trouble for, but still expect to do it. And what is beautiful about thinking about creating your own culture in your own spot is that you get to start that from scratch. And at least you don't have the— they'll still be there because we've all, you know, spent a lot of time on platforms that have these cultures. So, what I love about what you're talking about is you modeled how we are going to unlearn the things that we may or may not have done on other places because we are building differently here.

Yes.

It's really powerful.

I love that. Curating the community is very important for that.

We probably did a bad— we've gotten to one question.

Yeah, I was going to say, let's go around the fire. We're nailing this Q&A.

We're nailing it. Nailing it here. Hey guys, so nice to be here.

This has been an incredible evening and I teach a course called How to Actually Sell a TV Show Organically. We just did the first round that went really well and a few people are actually already getting meetings with their dream showrunners and exec producers and the community space is popping off, but it's not the ideal community space, especially if I wanna grow or scale. So my question is around how do you do a successful move when something's going well, but it's not structured in a way it's scalable, what's a way to move a community to Mighty Networks?

Is that for me?

Yes.

I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding. What makes for a successful community move?

Number one, being super clear. Going back to what you were saying, Rachel, in terms of like being the host, it's that moment where you're like, all right, everybody, We're moving next door, and next door we're going to be able to listen to some sweet tunes because that is happening next door.

There'll be cocktails. Cocktails.

And so what I would say is, again, coming back to those community design principles and giving people a reason for why we are moving. And then I think the most important thing, and this also goes to, I think, having, again, confidence as a host. Is how many people have gone out with a group of friends where you're like starving and you're like, okay, where are we going for dinner? And all— exactly. And like, and the group's like, Rachel's out already. It's like, I don't know, where do you want to go?

Well, what I do is I don't know, I take over and I'm like, here, we're going here. Everybody start walking.

Exactly. And this is why you want to listen to Rachel as it relates to hosting a community because one of the worst things that you can do with a community is say, "Hey guys, what do you want?" Oh no, don't be wishy-washy. Right.

Forget it. You're asking for trouble.

Or, "We're gonna keep this group open, but we also wanna do stuff over here." The best thing to do is to be like, "Hey dudes, we have got an epic spot over here. We just built it. Here's what it's gonna do. Here's what you're gonna be able to get from it. Those 5 things that we were just talking about, you got a big purpose, we're gonna be able to do so much more together, we're gonna really be able to build relationships that allow us to achieve our goals. And in my experience, 9 out of 10 times, people are like, okay, exactly.

If you lead them, they will allow themselves to be led. If you create chaos or try to have the community lead, forget it, it's gonna be a mess.

If you, hey guys, it is how I think about it.

Yeah. Hey guys. Yeah. And the other thing is repetition. If you want anybody, like if you want a group of people to know anything, be prepared to repeat it 8,000 times. No, sorry, 800,000 times before. And like on the, you know, 795,000th time, they'll be like, oh cool, we're going over here. Awesome. Right? So you have to repeat it so many times. So I would actually start it maybe at least 30 days in advance, letting them know on this date we're going over here, repeat, repeat constantly, and then say on this date it's closing, have you gone yet? Go over there, we're leaving. So I think you have to have change management.

Most people that are doing it, you're starting, you know, we all have kind of this fear of, or maybe I'm just the only one, of having a party and not having anybody show up. And so it's a little bit of like, that's literally where we're like, hey guys, what do you think? And what I would also say is how many people have like sent one email and, and you're like, okay, I guess nobody wanted to do it. So we as people read as human beings, we read into rejection by sending. But I sent like 2 emails.

Oh my God, it's not enough for anything.

Okay.

Nothing will happen with just 2 emails.

Else.

I just need you to know the world would literally fall apart if you thought you were going to get anything done in 2 emails, which is also the power of technology to be able to just kind of continue that momentum on. So we've nailed 2 questions.

Yes. Okay, let's do one final question and then we'll wrap up. This is going to be a rapid-fire question.

Okay, I'm a little wordy, so I don't know, I'm going to try rapid-fire. My name's Alexander. My company is called Pain in the Assistant. I help people get digitally organized.

First of all, great name.

Thank you. I was very nervous picking it, and actually because of like reading your book and then also being involved in ConvertKit was kind of why I decided to like lean into the name and the like, oh, people will like that type of thing. Anyways, I love this idea of a community, and because I help people get digitally organized, it's the community aspect around like just a community of people who want to get organized and stay organized, and then what the heck does that look like? Like, and I hear, like, I hear, oh, listen to your community and they'll tell you what they want, and then I also hear, oh, you got to say no, this is what you're here for, and I'm a little bit, you know, yeah, I just, I want to know, like, what does that look like for a community?

My follow-up, which is not, this is not going rapid fire, but follow-up is, so what does the company do to solve the, you give, like, advice, or are you placing assistants?

It's, so it's a little of both. The first step of it is that like I will get you to inbox zero and then I have an assistant who, or like you will have an assistant who comes in and manages that and maintains that on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, whatever works for you. So it's inbox zero, it's your digital filing, it's calendaring and scheduling.

Okay. So my quick advice is what if the community was for the assistants, like to help the assistants actually be better and stronger assistants, right? And so like if the service is better and you have this whole community for the assistants, Maybe you add more people who can serve the customers through that, and maybe they even pay for access to that community. I don't know, my— because I was thinking like assistants need community as well. So like there, I feel like there's an angle there as well.

I love that. Building on it, because I like building on whatever Rachel says. I'm like, no, the other thing that I was going to say just to answer the question of the listening. So the way I think about it is I think about it is you want to start with a point of view and then you can adjust. So it's not about just telling people and it's like my way or the highway. It's I'm going to put something out there that I believe will guide the community in the right way. And by having a point of view, I'm going to get feedback. I'm going to learn whether that is something that resonates with people in the community or that I'm gonna get instant feedback that that did not resonate, or I'm gonna get like crickets and like nothing. So what I would encourage you to think about is, how do I start with a point of view and then be open to adapting?

And that's where the rejection aspect really is terrifying. And I'm like, oh my gosh, do you just ask someone and then one person—

well, that's— and that's why I think it's so important. And I think what we're saying here is is have a point of view. And what I think you'll find is that the point of view that you put out, you will get 8, I'm making up numbers here, but like, you'll get a lot more positive feedback than negative. Now, as human beings, guess, because we're all trying to not die, will like those 2 other ones, like, you know, the 2 outta 10 that are like, eh, you'll literally like, oh my God, you like, you won't be able to get it out of your head. And so one of the most important things is to reframe to, "Oh, that's really interesting that I learned that, and here's what we're gonna be able to go to." Yeah.

There— you can't do anything as an entrepreneur without facing rejection. Like, everything that you want is on the other side of facing your fears and accepting that rejection is 100% part of the journey. So just let it happen and then you'll grow a thick skin and you won't even care anymore and it's the most freeing thing ever. So I encourage you to go out there and collect rejection. Until it doesn't bother you anymore.

I think you absolutely nailed that, right? Everything that you want in your pursuit of building any business is on the other side of rejection and facing that fear. And that's absolutely what you have to do. So thank you all so much for coming out and hanging out with us tonight.

Thank you.

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