021: Building a Creator Business That Lasts (with Jackie Aina)

I tell this to up-and-coming creators all the time. If this flops, is this something that you're still gonna like doing?

Jackie Aina, the most influential voice in beauty today.

'Cause I was a reservist at the time. I didn't really have that much going for me. You can achieve anything overnight if you're willing to take shortcuts. But do you wanna crash and burn fast, or do you wanna create longevity?

You've got 3.5 million subscribers on YouTube, 1.9 million followers on Instagram.

And 2 Instagram accounts. Just because you have a lot of followers, it doesn't necessarily mean you can monetize that, especially when you Black. Apparently $10 million for me, sometimes not as valuable as somebody else's $10 million. We had this mailing list, sign up to get updates, and it was like 50,000 people, and I was just like, oh my God. What we thought was going to be 6 months to a year worth of inventory sold out in an hour. What? An hour.

I was doing a lot of prep for this episode, this live recording that we're doing, And the prep was difficult, I have to say. It involved me sitting poolside at the hotel and watching YouTube videos of you and John Legend going through your skincare routines.

That was nice.

I really learned a lot, but it, it left me with a question, and that is, what's your number one beauty tip for 2024? Is there a, is there a lip color? Is there a fragrance? What do you have for us?

So my beauty philosophy is very much like, I do whatever the hell I feel like doing.

Yeah, I love it.

Like, I don't care what TikTok is saying. I don't really care what the magazines are saying. Like, I just do whatever the hell I want, and I want to— I want the girls to channel more of that because it's so freeing. Honestly, it really is. So I hope a little bit of individuality comes back. Oh yeah, yes, just an ounce. You know, I love a good trend, but sometimes people take them a little too literal. So I would love to see more of like just people doing what they want, you know.

Yes, I've enjoyed that at this conference, just watching everybody represent themselves, seeing how they like to dress, how they like to show up. You know, we have people in everything from like high heels to sneakers to Whatever. It's like, do you and have fun, right? Represent yourself. I love it. I love it. Let the people know who you are. So today you have millions of fans who love your posts. They love your products. They love your entire beauty world, right? But let's roll back to the beginning. Back in 2008, you were in the United States Army Reserve and you were 21 years old.

What? Yes. Why y'all pulling me out of retirement?

And you were in a marriage that was struggling at the time, right? Like, you were having a rough time in your life, and that's when you started making makeup tutorials online because I think a friend made a suggestion that you should make videos. What was that like? Like, what was it like to create the first video? What caused you to do it?

It was actually so embarrassing because I was like, what the hell am I doing? Like, it was so— y'all, this is like 2009, and nobody talked in front of a camera by themselves. Like, it was like, are you okay? Like, I wasn't okay, but like, you'd have to like rub it in, you know what I mean? Like, it was, it was a little weird. This is like the first generation of vlogging, and yeah, it really just kind of started out of like boredom. And honestly, so I had, just for context, I had been into makeup since like Probably like my first year of college. So that would have been like 2006, 2005, 2006. And I didn't make a ton of money. And so what I would do is I would buy like samples of, which is, please don't do this. Y'all probably don't got to worry about none of this, but I would buy samples of other people's makeup on eBay. Like that's how down bad I was. I did not care. I was just like, ooh, these pigments. Some products, they come with a lot, and so there's no way you can actually finish them. So that's what people would do. They would sell them.

Sounds very strategic and financial.

I mean, hey, I love a good business. Chess, not checkers. Like, OK. And so I would— that was the way that I could afford to get into makeup. And this is at the time where everything was orange. Everything— if you were like— literally, if you were darker than a paper bag, Everything was orange or red. And so I was always finding ways to like finesse stuff and like—

Blend and—

Yes, I would just figure stuff out. So I was always a makeup girl, and I wore makeup in ways that like at that time, Black girls didn't really wear like color. Like it was just not really celebrated as much. It was like, oh, you can't— like that stuff doesn't look good on your complexion. But I was wearing it, and I was just doing it anyway. And so So that's why my best friend was like, I don't know, I think she was trying to tell me like, girl, your life is so shitty, like get on YouTube, figure out something. So she was just like, you should show the girls like the looks that you do. So I was just like, I mean, not really interested. And I literally told her that for months. I was like, no, I don't want to be on camera, like please leave me alone. And then eventually I was just like, well, I guess, yeah, I don't really got anything else. Going on because I was a reservist at the time, so I wasn't active duty. I didn't have a full-time job. I didn't really have that much going for me. Nothing. A lot of things that weren't positive going for me. And so I was like, well, I mean, at worst it's something to do. And so I did. I uploaded a video which was actually like a picture slideshow. This was when it was—

that was the style back then.

Yeah, you remember it was, it was kind of a thing back then. A picture slideshow? I do not remember that. Yes, it was. OGs know.

It wasn't the same like sit down, talk to the camera.

No, it wasn't.

It was like I made a keynote presentation almost and I'm talking over it, or like here's— it was words and text on YouTube.

Oh, I do know what you mean, yes.

There was a lot of that.

So with makeup, you would like, like you would put like one shadow down and then that would be the picture, and it would be like start with this in your crease, Yes. And then the next picture would be like, blends. And then the next picture would be like, apply this to your lips. So it was like that. So then after begging me for months to start a YouTube channel, I sent it to my best friend and I was like, what do you think? And she was like, it's terrible.

You gotta love friends like that.

And I was like, girl, you're really trying my life right now. And I was like, well, why don't you like it? And then she was like, because why would I go on YouTube to read stuff? Why don't you talk? Good point. And I was like, fair enough. All right, you got me there. So then, yeah, like the next post, was not a picture slideshow, it was a video. But if you like watch all my old content, it's still there. And if you watch it, it's like a completely different person because I was so like timid and like almost whispering because I'm telling you, listen, it was giving girl institutionalized. Like nobody was talking about you. It was very much giving like lock her up. Like it was weird. But you know, I just was like, I don't really, I don't really have much else, you know, like let's just do just try it. And honestly, after a while, when I started to realize, like, oh, like, people are commenting, like, it's picking up traction. And I noticed that the people that at the time I was subscribed to and that I like to watch, like, my, my content was getting a bit more traction than theirs was. So I was like, maybe I'm doing something right. Like, I don't know. So then that's kind of like the— how it started for me, how I, how I stayed consistent, because I was No, absolutely not.

What were you seeing as that traction in those first few videos? Was it— or maybe those first 25 videos? I don't know how long it took for traction, but I would say I started to notice traction maybe by like—

oh God, I couldn't tell you exactly how, but I know that within that first year, okay, I was like, oh, we're locked in. Like, people are actually watching me.

Yes.

And they're watching me more than some of the other people that I follow. So I knew it wasn't like 300 views, it would be more like 5,000. It was like, and at that time, I mean, right now I know the standards for virality are very high, but I mean, back then, like, if you got like 10,000 people watching your videos, that was pretty good. So that was when I was like, okay, like, people are watching, let me see where this is going. Keep going.

Yes, okay, I just want to point out, you— so you say you did this for a year before you saw significant traction?

Yes, but that's not when I started making money. Yes, no, I know, whole separate conversation.

Yes, and I want to get to that, but I just want to make sure y'all get that you have to do it for a while before you start to see a return, right? Like, the same day that you plant is not the same day that you're gonna see fruit, you know what I mean? So I think sometimes we are impatient and we just want everything fast, fast, fast, but you got to put in work and show consistently for a while, and then you start to see traction.

Yeah.

Okay. I just want to make sure they got that word.

You know what? Also, I think I tell this to up-and-coming creators all the time. You have to stop. So for me, traction was like 50 comments.

Yes.

So like, these are just people who are being nice to me. Like, this is at a time where I was not around a lot of people that were nice to me. So if 20 people said, girl, you look amazing. Yes. Period. Like, I'm popping. We in there. Like, 20 people like me. Like, I do not care what y'all say. Nowadays, people might be like, oh, like, I only got 3,000. You know what I mean? Like, yes. But I think that really comes from, one, an extreme amount of gratitude. Like, I had an extreme amount of gratitude. The fact that people were watching me I didn't care. That was all that mattered to me. It was a community. It was the first, and it was also the first time I met other Black women who liked makeup the way I like makeup. 'Cause this was like kind of on the verge of the natural hair movement, which completely, completely, completely by far really, really overshadowed makeup for us. At that time it was like, Black girls don't really wear makeup like that. There was always that kind of undertone at that time.

Yes.

And it was like hair, hair, hair. That's where all the opportunities were. So this was really before the big boom of the beauty industry. And so I guess I just had a lot of time to just plant those seeds. And I didn't really have anything else to compare it to.

Yeah.

So yeah, traction for me was like the 5,000 views, the 10,000 views. And so for me, I feel like I had— immediate traction when I started my channel.

Yes.

I don't know how they found my content, but they were definitely watching and they were engaging. And it was other people that I was just excited that loved makeup the way I did. It was not popular like that back then.

I think that's important to stay in gratitude and recognize the opportunity. Like, if, if, if 50 people are commenting, that's 50 humans who are— who care enough to pay attention to your stuff, to watch it. Like, you got to stay in the miracle of that. Like, The fact that we even have these tools where we can reach 50 people who like what you like, right, where you can reach your people, that's amazing. I think we miss that sometimes. We're like, it's not enough, you know? And it's like, listen, get out of that, right? Get out of that mindset because it makes you cut off an opportunity because you're like, it's not enough. So I love that. So I have a follow-up question, which is, all right, so it took you a year before you got like 5,000 people, you know, watching. How much longer after that did you start to monetize?

Okay, so that's a whole journey in itself. I think I started— the YouTube Partnership Program was created right around the time I started my channel, so I think creators were only even able to make money on YouTube like within the same year that I started.

Yes.

So that was an option that didn't even exist before. And then I think I became eligible maybe like 3, 4 months in. I don't remember. It was maybe like— because I remember still living in Hawaii when this happened, so it had to have been like 6 months or something like that. But the thing is, is like everything was a process. So I was making money, but I was by No, it was like gas money, like barely even that. Like, it was not livable money at all for a while. So it was like every time I would get like a crumb of success, I would just, okay, this is where we're at right now. And then I would get the next and then, all right, this is where we're at right now. So yeah, I started monetizing also pretty early on, but it was not livable money by any means. Like, definitely could not quit my day job. Well, I didn't have no day job because, you know, I was in the reserves, so it was like They would call me twice, 2 days a month, and then I would go back to, you know— and well, I did work at MAC for a little while as well. That was really fun because it happened at the same time that I started my channel. Yeah, so really the tea back then is like you would go on YouTube and the girls would make videos about how to get hired at MAC. So then I was on there, you know, doing my research, and I got hired at MAC. So then I started doing similar content as well, so that kind of added to maybe how my content picked up some traction.

Yes.

So yeah.

I like it.

So you're talking about those early days of getting the first revenue from monetization on YouTube. What was the moment— I think we've all had this, or many of us have had it as a creator— where you realize, whoa, there's a huge amount of leverage here, or I just made an amount of money maybe from a brand deal or sponsorships or product sales. Was there a moment for you where it tipped and you kind of had that shocked feeling of like, wait, this has gotten way bigger than I ever imagined, either on the audience size or on the amount of money you just made from it?

I feel like that click for me happened with the community aspect before the money did. So again, another really unique experience to me because, yeah, like making money is amazing. Like, I'm not going to say it isn't. But I had the community first. And that was what I valued. And that's what I cared the most about. And then the money came like as a byproduct of that. And not a lot of people would be willing to, which is honestly, we live in a capitalistic society, child. Like I can only expect so much from other people. But a lot of people would not be, I'm just, facts, okay? Like people gotta eat. I get it. I'm not saying that everybody can do what I did and everybody can hold out the way, the same amount of time that I did. It's honestly not realistic, but I was just like, well, people— like, I'm talking to people who've been through stuff that I've been through.

Yes.

The money's cool and everything. Like, yeah, I guess they're cool, but like, I valued that more than anything else.

Yes. Did you feel uncomfortable at the idea of monetizing? Because I know a lot of us do sometimes, right? We build a relationship with an audience and then you're like, okay, how can I make this sustainable? And in order to make it sustainable, you gotta make money at some point, otherwise you don't have time. Like, you gotta get a job, right? So did you feel uncomfortable about that, that going from— because I've heard of like of bloggers or creators who created for a long time before they monetized, and then when they finally monetized, people are mad at them, you know? And that happens sometimes. Did you— were you worried about that at all?

No. I'm a Nigerian woman. And I feel like I paid my debts to society, child. So look, I'm just a Black woman in America. Y'all can pay me and y'all can pay me very well. I'm not going to feel guilty about it. Like, No, I definitely internally at some points, like when I started to make more of it, I had this like, like I'll never forget it. One day I was like in my car and I got this email and it was the same email, like it was an offer for something, I don't remember what it was, and then immediately after I read this email there was a voice in the back of my head that was and she was like, what makes you think you deserve this? And I was just like, where'd that come from?

Whoa.

That scared the crap out of me because it was almost like a foreign voice. And I was like, who the hell was that? And I immediately, immediately had to like talk myself down from that. So I've definitely experienced things like some versions of imposter syndrome.

Yes.

Especially for those of us that have come from like marginalized communities and impoverished backgrounds. When you're the one person who makes it and you can't hand-carry everybody with you, that comes with an insane amount of pressure.

Yes.

And so some of that, you know, that's a whole different conversation.

It's a whole conversation.

Yeah, so sometimes, sometimes I do have to, you know, do internal check-ins dealing with that, but the making money part—

You got that covered. I like it.

Not a problem.

Embrace that part.

I love it.

How long was it from starting the channel to earning a full-time living from your content?

I could not comfortably quit my day job until year 6. Wow. That's how I be saying, everybody ain't gonna do what I did, and I don't expect them to. But it was literally, yeah, because it was 2017 when I signed with my first agency and they were really bringing me money and opportunities where I was like, okay, I feel good. Like I can actually like let go of all the other things I'm trying to do.

Yes.

That for me was 2017. So I started my channel in 2009. So that was year 6.

I love it. So Tabitha Brown was on this stage earlier.

We love Tabitha.

We love Tab. And she was saying how her middle period was long, right? And there were times like her mom was sick, and so she was going back and forth for that, and she couldn't focus on, you know, her next steps, right? And creating her vision and whatever other— having babies and all of the things. And I think sometimes we just are in such a rush, and we're just like, it has to be fast, but some— you build a bigger foundation when you take your time, right? Everything doesn't have to be in a rush. You can do it faster now, there's so many tools, right? Like, there's so many ways that you can make it happen, but it doesn't— like, don't be in a rush. Take your time, right? Like, that's a— that's something that is a commonality for some of the people that we've had on the stage. Like, even Ivy yesterday from Be Good was talking about the middle, right? Like, just it's okay to be in the middle for a while. 6 years to commit to something before it's making you enough money to quit your job. I don't know if I could do it. I'm gonna be honest.

I don't know if I could do it again. Like, I don't even know what the hell I was thinking. But, you know, yeah, I mean, I liked what I was doing. So it was just kind of something to do for a while. It really was.

So now the audience, you've got 3.5 million subscribers on YouTube. I think 1.9 million followers on Instagram.

Mm-hmm.

And so—

And 2 Instagram accounts.

2 Instagram accounts.

About to hit a milli on the other one.

Ooh.

My backup Instagram account has— No, I'm kidding.

I love it. So you're, like, combined 6, 7-plus million followers across all of your channels. If someone is looking at what you're doing and saying, OK, I want to— build that, might be for a different industry, but follow your style and all that, what advice would you give to them beyond it takes a long time, show up consistently, but what advice would you give for building a following of that size?

Well, first of all, there's no guarantees, so I would have to tell them you could be doing what everybody else is doing, but I can't guarantee success in any industry, so you have to be okay with that.

Yes.

I would also say you can achieve anything overnight if you're willing to take shortcuts, but do you want to crash and burn fast, or do you want to create longevity? And I think when you are willing to sit back and learn and also take your time to build something, also be consistent with something, also make mistakes, like not be afraid to flop, not be embarrassed. You have to be— to be a content creator is to have like an ounce of audacity because you are like almost like really putting yourself out there and you have to be ready and prepared for people who know you in real life to be like, who do you think you are? But that's what it is and what we do. And you have to look past that and Yeah, I think to my point earlier, being able to create longevity requires you to like not see overnight success. Like if you blow up overnight, yeah, that's good. But I don't know a single person that I saw blow up overnight when I started that's still even doing this as a job.

It's so true.

And that's not a bad thing. They could have gone on to do other amazing things, it doesn't mean they're not doing anything in life. But like, I don't— I literally do not know what they're doing. I don't even know, like, I don't even know if they're still creating content. But, you know, and so to me at that time, it's like, oh my God, that's my dream. Like, why did it happen quickly for them? Why did it happen overnight? Yes, for them. And now I look back and I'm like, I'm actually glad it took me longer because now I know exactly how to keep replicating that. And because I've done this for so long, That's what I would suggest to someone else. Figure out what your voice is. And I think also having a why is really important because my why was not about the content creation part. That was just like what I used to talk about what I loved, which was like making darker-skinned people feel beautiful in cosmetics and beauty. I could have done that on TV or writing a book. That could have been done through any avenue or any means. It just so happened that I had a camera and nothing else to do. So I used social media as the tool, and that's how the messaging has always stayed the same because I've always had the same end goal. So I wasn't chasing like followers, like I wasn't chasing, oh, I want to, I want to do this and I want to have this many followers. Eventually those goals come later naturally as creators, but my why was always and still is always the same.

Yes, I think it helps to build the brand when you have a mission and a vision, you know?

Absolutely.

And it's the thing that keeps you going and gets you excited when it's hard.

Yeah.

And when no one's responding or commenting.

Well, and that's the thing, when at the time when you're down, like, we think of the journey, we think of the emotional journey as a creator probably going something like the follower count. Yeah, where it just increases steadily over time. There's never really a dip, and we kind of make this assumption that, you know, our experience is going to be, oh, just steady progress, you know, and this reward one after another. And the reality is that one day we feel like we're on top of the world because a video got a ton of views, or something else happened, or we, you know, made money from a product, or got compliments from someone that meant something to us. And so we are up like crazy, and then And then something else happens that we thought would go well and it bombs. And so there's just this crazy roller coaster. And I think when you have the mission behind your company, all three of us run very mission-driven companies, then what you end up having is when you're in that dip, you end up with your community coming alongside and picking you up and carrying you and saying, "Hey, this is why you do what you do." And so if you try to build without that, that mission and drive and that community-first mentality, then you, you find yourself alone in those down moments instead of finding yourself really well supported.

True. I completely agree.

It's hard to keep going when you don't have a purpose in it, you know what I mean? When you feel like you're reaching someone and you're helping someone, it's exciting and it's fun to watch people get wins, you know what I mean? Like, that's what gets you excited to keep creating content.

Agree.

You talked about shortcuts. Was there— I think a lot of people are tempted by shortcuts. Is there an example of a shortcut that you took and didn't work out? One that you were tempted by and decided, nope, that's not for me, or a creator— you don't have to name names— but that you saw take shortcuts and that didn't work out? Because I think we're all tempted by them.

I mean, I'll just say some Apps, Favour, because this is all like technology, right? So like these algorithms and these apps, they know what you look like, they know who your audience is, they know what you're passionate about, they know you're a Black viewer, they know you're a Black user. I will say when I started, probably like the first, like before beauty really became like a the big industry that it is now. And some of you guys may or may not remember this if you've been a YouTube viewer or a creator yourself as long as I have. There was a time where, like, really the only option you had to grow if you were like a dark-skinned Black woman was like going the comedy route. But it was a very specific type of comedy. That personally I was not a fan of, which oftentimes was super like racial stereotypically driven. That's the kind of stuff that was like, oh yeah, if you just make fun of, you know, come up, come up there and like do the whole like, like just doing crazy stuff. Like they like, that's what the algorithm would favor and that's how you would grow and it would be like these these exaggerated stereotypes of Black men and women, Black women specifically. And so that was stuff that would really, really take off for some creators. Also, like, really niche things, like randomly, like interracial couple content would go viral. I wasn't dating anybody, so I was like, well, I can't really do that. There's nothing wrong with interracial dating, but it was just like, it's so It was so random, like, so, but there were totally some people that would, like, you could tell they were, like, playing into it.

Yes, like seeing what was trending on the homepage of YouTube or something like that and going, okay, I will make that, but it was like, watch them jump from thing to thing.

Yeah, that's exactly what they would do, but it was, like, not good enough to just be, like, a normal Black person. You had to be, like, a stereotype, or you had to, like, be dating a white guy, or you had to be, like, Yeah, it was rough. It was like, there's apparently no room for just regular Black people. Like, I don't know, it was strange. But I wasn't willing to play into that just because it wasn't me.

Yes.

It wasn't my reality. But there was definitely some people that I'm like, mm.

Side-eyeing that a bit.

You know what you doing. But, you know, it is what it is.

When your audience knows what you're doing, too.

Yeah, yeah, they know they don't care because a lot of times, like, for example, like the content creators that would do like Black stereotypical jokes, like most times they would have a non-Black audience. So they were like pandering to people that that's what they think Black people really act like. So no, no, no, kind of. Yeah.

Yes. I don't want to put— I literally had a teacher tell me this is my first year of college. I took a music class. It's an elective. Like, my major was political science, so it had nothing to do with what I was trying to do. But this music class, so I was just like, you know, whatever. Like, I'm just— this is not what I'm worried about. I'm worried about this other class, you know? And so I just turned in some paper or something we were supposed to do and just gave it to her. And I didn't work that hard on it. And she gave it back to me, and she gave me a bad grade. And she said to me when she handed it to me, she said, Rachel, 'Never put your name on something you can't be proud of.' And that has stuck with me forever. And I think it's so important as a creator to, like, do not create things that you're not going to be proud of, right? Just because you're trying to get attention. And I have definitely seen it. Okay, I think we have all seen it. And it's— it usually is related to negativity, right? If you put out some drama, the algorithm will reward the drama all day long.

They love it.

Yes, but it's so much more rewarding to build an audience who actually cares about what you have to say, your expertise, right? What you have to share, your personality, versus just doing something dramatic, right? So that you can get attention. That does not lead to paid customers, just so you know, right? So like, it might give you a little bit of attention that makes you feel good in the moment, but it's actually not going to— like, it's better for people to recognize recognize you and value you rather than value, like, gossiping and drama or whatever it is that people do sometimes just to get attention from the algorithm. And it's, it's sad. Like, social media rewards negativity sometimes.

Yeah, unfortunately. Yes, it rewards things like oversharing. So the more— yes, oversharing. Yeah. And I don't even like to see, like, with people's kids and stuff. Like, it's just, it's weird. Like, why would you post that? Like, yes, that's strange.

Sometimes it is It's a little like, okay, like, y'all bugging, girl, sir.

I'm just like, I just don't like to see like people who can't even like consent to being online. Like, these are like kids. Like, I agree, it's weird.

I agree, it's weird.

Exactly. All of them are not weird, but some of them are very strange. I'm like, yeah, you knew, you knew exactly that this was going to get mad views. And again, I consider that another shortcut because you're basically saying like, well, I don't really have the personality. Let me let my kids do the work for me. And that's kind of not really fair to them.

Yes. Having some standards.

Having some standards.

Yes.

Yeah. Okay.

So tell us about getting the agent, because I think this is something people are curious about. Like, how do you get an agent once you're a creator for a while? I don't think— I saw a conversation on Threads recently where a whole lot of women of color creators Specifically, we're talking on Threads about how like they can't get representation from agents or there's not enough agents or even the agencies that they do have don't know how to sell them. And so there's a lot of talk like this apparently is a need because there's so many creators out there who want to— who want somebody representing them. But so how did you get hooked up with your agent, your first one?

Yes. So I think it ultimately boils down to having the Having enough momentum to where they would see value in wanting to work with you, that comes first. So sometimes I hear like a lot of like, oh, you need to get an agent so they can get you, they can help you blow up. Or at least that's how it was kind of framed when I first got my agent. They almost packaged it as like, this is going to be the person who puts you on and like makes you grow. And first of all, they don't do that at all. Like, you're responsible for your own growth. But they can help you with like job opportunities and stuff like that, but they also have to have like something to monetize in order for them to do that for you. I'm also not really surprised that this is an issue specific to Black women because much like what I experienced at that time when I first started looking for an agent initially, it very much felt like people didn't really understand like my content, like the value that they could bring to me or vice versa. So yeah, I'm not surprised I'm not surprised to hear you say that because it was an issue then. So yeah, I'm very much not surprised to hear it's an issue now. But like, honestly, it really just boils down to having momentum and having maybe like a very clear brand vision that someone would be like, yeah, I like your content, I love that you're doing this, but I could also see you doing this, this, and this. I don't think it's even good enough to just like want to make money. I think the person has to to really understand your brand and your personality from the full picture and be like, here's how we can now monetize it and take it to the next level.

Yes, I agree. Like having a brand and having a specific point of view, then people can see how they can partner with you, right? Like they gotta see the connection.

'Cause I think even like having the followers isn't good enough. Just because you have a lot of followers, it doesn't necessarily mean you can like monetize that or do anything with that, especially when you Black. Straight up, like, I realized that, like, apparently $10 million for me is sometimes not as valuable as somebody else's $10 million, because you could literally be doing pretty much nothing and blow up if you're a non-Black creator. And that's just facts. Like, I've been on the internet, like, I've been a digital creator since this started, and I see that the playing field is 1,000% not equal at all.

Yes.

In what But some industries are willing to be like, "Yeah, we want you to be the face of that." And it's like, but they wasn't even doing nothing. Like, I'm confused. But I can't, like, I also can't focus on that. That's also one of my big strategies is I don't like comparing myself to other people. But you can peep it and be like, "Okay, well then that means I'm gonna have to maybe tweak something. I can't follow that person's path. That may work for them, but I gotta do something a little different." Yes, and it's not surprising, right?

Like, all of these different platforms reflect the world that we live in, you know what I mean? So if there's systemic racism and systemic sexism, we're going to experience that in every platform, right? Whether it's television or YouTube or what have you. And that's one of the benefits of creating your own pathway, not having to worry about— well, I mean, you are worried about it, you're irritated by it, but you get to step into your own power and do it your way, you know?

Yeah.

Speaking of which, so tell us about, like, you started— you've done brand partnerships and you still do that, right? And then you decided to come up with your own product. Tell us about that pathway, like, what, what led you to do that?

So yes, so I'm the co-founder of Forever Mood, a home fragrance brand. And my other— thank you— and my other co- co-founder is right front and center over there, that tall handsome man, Mr. Dennis, our co-founder. Um, so that's actually quite a bit of a long story with how Forever Mood was born. Basically, way, way before I became a beauty girl and a fashion girl, I learned very early on that I had hyperhidrosis. And I didn't even know that that condition had a name. But basically, hyperhidrosis, if you guys aren't familiar with this, are people who sweat profusely. Like, I used to sweat so much, and it started like right when puberty hit. And so it affects some people differently. Like, some people are like feet sweaters, some people are like scalp sweaters, some people are like underarm, hands. I used to sweat a lot under my arms, and I didn't know this was like a thing. Like, I thought everybody else had this issue until I would go to school, and I remember like being a kid and we wore a uniform. And if you have hyperhidrosis, then you know wearing white linen tops is like the bane of our freaking existence.

Oh my gosh.

I remember like the days like— and I grew up in the part of LA that it was really hot. And so I would come home from school and there was like these huge pit stains under my shirt. And when you're a kid, you're already embarrassed to just like exist. Exactly. So that was like really embarrassing. And when I was younger, I promise you I'm gonna land with story. When I was younger, we didn't make a lot of money. One of the few things that we could actually afford to splurge on was fragrance, was perfume. So when you have hyperhidrosis, you're like hyper-aware of what everything around you smells like because you're always like, oh my god, do I smell? Does my house smell? What does my car smell like? Are people gonna smell me sweating? And so from an extremely early age, I became a perfume girl. It was the one thing we could afford, one of the few things we we could actually afford to splurge on. And it was really the way that I kind of gained my confidence and not feeling like, oh my God, everybody can smell my sweat. Then it turned into like, hopefully they're smelling my perfume. So that was really kind of like how I got out of my shell, how I developed some of my confidence. And yeah, just a way to really get me to like not be weird and like wearing big puffy jackets in 90-degree weather because I was so— oh my God, I was so embarrassed. Like I I was so embarrassed. And so I became hyper-aware of smells and huge, huge fragrance girly. And so naturally that went from like a perfume lover to like candles. And I became a candle girl pretty much since college. And I started to realize after years and years of using everything, and then I started making more money, I start like transitioning into higher-end candle brands. I started to realize like either the quality is not that great or the throw is not that great. And I just started to pick up on things that I would love about one brand but didn't like about another. And so I started to realize, like, I think one day I would like to, you know, maybe just for fun, little passion project, I want to have my own because there's always something missing. There's always something missing. But then also, like, when I started to become a higher income earner, like, yeah, I can afford a $90 candle, but everybody else can't. Why do I got to spend $90, $150 $60 just to have something that smells good, that don't seem right.

It's amazing how much you can spend on a candle.

Yes, especially me. Very expensive habit. So yeah, so then me and my co-founder, Mr. Dennis, we started talking about this project in like 2017 was when I mentioned like, I want to have my own brand. Like, I'm sick of tussling and experimenting with whatever's going on out there. And so that was when we started to have the conversations and meet with manufacturers and meet with vendors and stuff. And then we were also working on another project at that time, which never ended up seeing the light of day. So the candles was like my, my plan B. And then I was leading with another plan A. I'm not gonna say what it is because it's not coming out.

But it was also a product.

Yes, it was another, another product line. And then COVID happened. So this had been in the works for a minute.

Jacked up a lot of people's plans.

Everybody. Pack it up, okay, go home. And then we shelved everything. But then maybe like a couple months into which would have been 2020, Dennis was like, I mean, You're at home and you're still burning candles and you're like, everybody else is at home. And mind you, this was before, like, do you guys remember the end of 2020 when everybody was doing candles? Like, this was before then. So I'm thinking like, I don't know, like, this is weird. I'm scared. Mom, come pick me up. Like, I was like, I don't know. So Dennis was like, we should do this. At the time, we were thinking about doing this with like investors. We were thinking much bigger. And we were at home and Dennis was like, I mean, I think we should just do it and try it and just see like how things work out and self-fund. That was like, I'm scared. I was so scared of self-funding it.

What was scary? Like putting the money out there?

I don't want to spend my own money. Get somebody else to do it. I was scared. I was just like, what if it flops? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I think I was just I was just probably just paranoid, you know, because at the time I had never done that before. So I was like, oh, like, I would feel better if we had like a safety net or if we had like some type of support. But we were just like, the worst thing that can happen, we can start small. And we were thinking really small. Yes, we were thinking, because I'm not really known for fragrance, we were thinking this would definitely peak the interest of some of my followers, but not the majority. Found out the hard way that was the exact opposite of what, what happened. Basically, we had about what we thought was gonna be like 6 months to a year worth of inventory, and then we announced the brand and we told everybody Before y'all get excited, it's not makeup. So everybody calm down, because everybody was expecting makeup at that time. And we were like, it's not makeup, baby. Like, it's just candles. So then we thought like, okay, that'll like fan the flames, because we had this like mailing list, like sign up to get updates, and it was like 50,000 people. And I was just like, oh my God, like what the hell just happened? So we told people like, it's not makeup, just So y'all know before y'all get too excited. And when we pre-launched, we did like a presale before we launched like 30 days later, what we thought was going to be 6 months to a year worth of inventory sold out in an hour.

What?

An hour?

20,000.

Candles.

Wow.

20,000 candles.

Girl, I was scared. I was like, oh my God.

That's like a 50% conversion rate.

I was like, I don't want this problem right now. This is too much. It was too much. We were very— we had to scramble because we were not prepared to ship 20,000 candles. And that was the year when USPS was losing everybody's stuff.

Oh yeah, and shipping containers were crazy expensive.

Oh my God, yes, they were at the bottom of the ocean.

Yeah, it was all logistics was a nightmare.

Yeah, it was. And so imagine this not only being your first time starting a brand, but the year of a global pandemic. So there was like unprecedented for every business that existed at that time. So we were like, oh Lord Jesus. What are we gonna do now? But it was a great learning experience, needless to say, but it definitely taught me like, okay, well, you know, the girls are ready. So we just had to completely— we had to completely restructure and re-strategize like what we thought was really gonna be passion project, side gig, completely. We're like, okay, time out. What? So now it's obviously like such a big part of my life now, both of our lives now, and yeah, it just kind of took on a life of its own.

Wow. So what are the things that went into that launch? Actually, maybe let's back up a little bit. Did you do all of that on your own, or did you— as I understand it, you might have worked with a partner that didn't go quite so well. And I think a lot of creators have this idea of, I have this audience, and then someone else comes along who knows how to do product, and the pitch is like, we'll handle manufacturing and shipping and product development and all of that, and you be the face of the brand. And so I think that's a very common pitch. I know a little bit from talking before that— Tell us how that didn't go or how that did, didn't go.

Yeah, so we basically had what you would, I guess, consider like a manufacturing partner when we first started our brand. I didn't actually go to the fragrance houses and tell them what I wanted. We went to a business that already had everything in place because they had their own in-house brands and they would just make it for us. It would be our brand, our name, and yeah, we kind of work with them like a partner. And honestly, in an ideal scenario, this is a very normal transaction. Like, this is not abnormal at all. It's actually quite freaking amazing when it works out great. Yeah, because if you've never done it before, they've already figured out the kinks of like starting and building relationships with vendors and stuff, because that's a lot that goes into that. There's a lot that goes into that in itself. And yes, and we quickly, at the time, like when we first launched, the things that were like glaring red flags flags we didn't know were red flags, but— and our audience already knows this because we were very candid with sharing this with them. I want to say it was like a year when we did our rebrand. We relaunched and rebranded, and we just really was super candid with our audience and told them like, honestly, when we started, yeah, it was amazing selling tens of thousands of product, but we wish we would done it with a manufacturing partner that was more skilled and more trustworthy.

Yeah, trust kind of matters.

I know. They would say things that they were capable of doing, but they kind of weren't. And no one— honestly, like, the thing is, it's like nobody teaches you how to do these things at all. I don't care how many followers you have. I don't care how many people love you on TikTok, Twitter, whatever. It does not matter when you walk into a room, because if you really think about it, like, the creator and the small business owner is like the itty-bitty puppy compared to like a company like a Bath Body Works that's selling millions of candles a year, so, or a month. So they're looking at you like, who are you and why should we care? And you have to kind of prove yourself. And so because of that, like, there was just a lot of of things that they were not as transparent about as they really should have been. And so we eventually had to walk away from them, work from working with them. And yeah, we shared it with our audience and we were like, this is why we're rebranding. We completely repackaged our candles, we changed, um, some of the— we changed the formulas, we changed everything after we ended that partnership with them because we were like, we want to start over and reintroduce ourself to our customers and our audience in ways that they're like, okay, now this feels like a different brand. Because we had started and we started so big, like I said, it was like a domino effect. And unfortunately, it also came at our customers' expense.

Yes.

Meaning it could have been things like poor quality and inconsistent quality, because one thing we started to notice after a while is one person would be like Or it would be like for every 10 people that's like, we're obsessed, this is the best candle I've ever used, it would be like a couple people that'd be like, I don't smell anything. Wow. So then we'd be like, I'm confused. How are you not?

How do you not smell something?

Right. And I'm like, well, the customers aren't lying. So that's what started like the deep dive in like how much things were not quality controlled the way that they really should have been. And so because we had this so much work on the back end, to like completely restructure the company. We were like, we want to take the customers along with us. And we just started from scratch, rebranded, and shared to them everything that we went through. And honestly, I'm so glad we did because for every— like, I think people see that what I do and people in my position and they're like, you can do anything you want and you can start this and you can get into this and you can get into this. And yeah, that's technically true, but like, I want to be good at the things that I attach my name to. I want to be good at the things that I start. And so it means so much more to me to have like quality behind everything that I put my name behind.

Yes.

And not just quantity. And honestly, we go through the exact same kinks that every small startup goes through, every single one of them. I promise you, having followers and being well known does not shield you from any— like, it does not shield you from anything. I think the good thing is people are more forgiving if they like you, which is good. And I think that speaks more to like your community building.

Yes.

But yeah, we go through the same things. I think people need to see more of that.

Yes, exactly. Like, it's like the marketing is in a lot of ways done for you, right? Like the audience is there, you already have a relationship with this audience, but it doesn't take away the backend labor involved.

And it's work. Yes, work, honey. Like, it's a lot of work.

So if you were advising a creator making that shift, or saying basically I'm making money off of sponsorships and I'm looking to become my own sponsor in a sense, right? Take this attention that I have and instead of getting paid, you know, $5,000, $25,000 from a sponsor, I want to drive that attention to my own product where I actually own that equity and I am, you know, building a company where, you know, I own a substantial amount of it or all of it. What would you say of some of those red flags to watch out for in partners, or some of the missteps that, that you can make in that process?

Okay, so first I would say, if this flops, is this something that you're still gonna like doing? It's the first question I would say.

Such a good question.

If this flops, are you still down? Yes. Yes, because for me, I'm like, if y'all ain't buying these candles, I'm burning my candles, okay? Thank you, 'cause I love 'em, period. So I went into that thinking, if this doesn't go great, it's still something that I've always wanted to do. That's what makes me happy.

You'll burn those 20,000 candles yourself if necessary.

Oh, it's very easy, okay? I'll put one in every room and every bathroom, and I got a big old house, so that would be very easy to do. So I would first and foremost ask someone tell the person to ask themselves that question because again, it kind of goes back to your why. Like, if you're passionate about something, there's a lot of stuff that you're going to be like, okay, moving on. Yes, try something else. Maybe let's try something again, you know? And I think also the disappointments won't be as harsh when you know, like, okay, I didn't get it right this time. That's fine, right? I'll try something else. Yeah, I still want to achieve that. Like, I'm still very much so passionate about home fragrance. And also the missing element that I didn't get to mention earlier, when we started Forever Mood— when we started Forever Mood, some of our marketing slightly shifted because it was 2020, and this was like when it was such an insanely like tumultuous year for a lot of Black Americans with Black Lives Matter. Really picking up way more traction than it ever had than before. And so when I started Forever Mood, I really wanted to see Black women taken care of in marketing in a way that I didn't really see before. You know, wellness has been an upwards trend for a while, but I always kind of felt like wellness only looked like one thing. Yes, we're a wellness brand, sort of, but not really. It's more like wellness lifestyle home fragrance.

Yes.

And so it was extremely important for me to see positive images of people who look like me being taken care of. And because that's still and will always be important to me, it completely— like, I'm able to handle rejection better, if that makes sense. So if you don't lose focus on your why, there's a lot of stuff you're going to be able to tolerate and move past. Yes. Like sometimes I almost don't even— it's strange because I'm a very passionate person, but when it comes to my brand, if people don't like something, I'm like, okay, what's next? Like, I'm able to somehow like separate the emotional part from it.

Yes.

Like if they don't like it, they don't like it, okay, move on. Or if this is a misstep, then just move on. And so that is really important. I think too, hmm. Stay away from cash grabs. I know they're tempting, but just because something looks easy, it doesn't mean like, ooh, it doesn't mean it's actually going to be easy in the long run. And again, to my point about getting into content creation, things that happen quickly are not always in the long run the fruitful business opportunities. Like, they're just, they're just not. And so I would say look up, look out for that. I would say desiring transparency is really important. So if you wanted to have like a business partner or if you wanted to work with like an incubator manufacturer, transparency is extremely important. Look for that. I mean, there's so many. It also depends on like what you're trying to do, right? So I think the advice would be tailored based on what those things are. But follow your gut, like really follow your gut. If something feels weird or if something— I remember one time I met this like executive and I was at a place where people were meant to be like mingling and making connections with people. And I was talking to this guy, which being a woman business founder is a— I feel like that's a extreme sport in itself. But I was like having a conversation with this guy. And again, it was not a networking event. And maybe I'm petty, maybe I'm a Leo, I don't know. But it was just like we were having a conversation, conversation was going great. But the guy like in the middle of the conversation, before he was going to end it, took out his business card and was like, yeah, here's my card. And like put it on the table, didn't even make eye contact with me, didn't even look at me, and was like, "Here, card." And I was like, "Okay." Like, you couldn't even like hand it to me, you couldn't even look at me. And to me, like, that was a red flag. I'm like, I'm not going to business with nobody who can't even look at me, acknowledge me, nice meeting you, nothing. It was more just like a, "It's my card." And it actually would have been an extremely valuable contact, an extremely valuable contact. Maybe I was a little petty, I don't know. But I was just like, uh-uh, I don't like that. I don't like that. I feel like I wouldn't want to go into business with somebody who couldn't even like acknowledge my presence or like look me in the eye, or I just didn't like that.

So I don't know.

Call it women's instinct. I have no clue. But you know, just if something doesn't feel right, then don't. Don't do it. Don't do it. And it's okay to walk away from things. Yeah. If you can get it once, you can get it again. I firmly believe that. I've walked away from things and I'm like, well, I got it once, I can get it again.

Yes.

Can you give us a sense of the scale of Forever Mood now?

Ooh, right.

We're at 20,000 initial units.

Oh, okay. So what I can say is We got that Shopify plaque. So our, our business operates on Shopify and we, as of last fall, was it $100,000, babe? It was $100,000, right? Yes. Okay. So we hit that milestone. Shopify gives you like plaques for milestones. So we achieved last year 100,000 orders.

Wow.

But that's just, that's not units though, that's orders. So yeah, we sold way, way, way more candles than that. These are people who are buying like multiple candles.

Yes.

So we hit our 100,000th order, which is awesome. Amazing. Yes, yes.

And that's on the direct-to-consumer side of your business.

That's not even counting Sephora. So yes, so we're also in a retailer as well, and Sephora takes up, it Surprisingly, it doesn't even— it's not the majority of our business either. Wow. The majority of our business is D to C. They're coming straight to us for the tea, honey. They want the tea. I love it. But Sephora is an incredible partner too. It really does put us in front of an entirely new audience because there's people that are like, I didn't know you owned Forever Mood. I'm like, girl, you didn't see my picture in the Sephora store? They had no idea. They discovered the brand first. And then they found out I'm the owner. Yeah, but I actually kind of like that because I'm like, oh, period, you're pulling up for the product. Like, you don't even care about me. I love it. That's what I want. Like, it's, it's, I think it's every entrepreneur's dream is to have a product that sells itself. Yeah. And has its own community and has its own, like, following. Yes. So I love being like, oh my God, you own Forever Room. It's, it actually like kind of makes my day.

There's something really important in that because when we're creators using our audience to really kickstart a product or a brand, the audience allows us, you know, shortcut, right? You know, 7, 10 years plus. Exactly. 7-year shortcut allows you to shortcut the time it would take to build that brand, but effectively what we're trying to do then is have the brand eclipse what we're doing as an individual.

Yes. Yeah. For me at least. Yeah.

It's the same is absolutely true for me. You're doing the same thing.

Yeah. Some people want their— I mean, that's why it's Forever Mood and not Jackie Aina. Like, it's not— it's like, don't use my name. I don't want to. Nope. I want it to have its own brand identity, its own thing. Obviously, it's me at its core, but I wanted it to have a life of its own. So yeah, that was my exact same goal because that's important. Yes.

So out of brand sponsorships, versus having your own company, which do you prefer?

Well, I'ma say I like having my own brand.

Yes.

Even though it's not like my main source of income yet, I love just being like the driving force behind every product that gets launched and really just shaping the conversations that we have around like fragrance. It's really, it's really, it's just like a rewarding thing and it's something that I love doing.

I love it.

I think something in there, I've heard people talk about it being one or the other, right? I can sell my products or I can have sponsors and really you're like, no, I can absolutely have both. You know, you can still be working with the sponsors across your channel and everything else and then, you know, have your brand launch additional products and expand from there?

You can. I think sometimes one will have to take precedence over the other.

Yeah.

But I don't think you necessarily have to choose, per se.

Are there any trade-offs that you've had to make because of having your own, you know, where those two worlds come in conflict?

So Like if it's like a competitor brand, competitor, even though I don't believe in competition, period. But the industry does, so you just want to be mindful. Like if I were to launch something, like, ooh, it would be weird to like promote this brand if it's like in a similar category or something like that. So there's things like that, but it doesn't come up as often as you might think it does. Yeah.

Yes.

But yeah, it's— It is a thing.

Jackie, thank you so much for dropping all of these gems.

Thank you for our audience, giving us the tea and the behind the scenes. Thank you.

Is there any closing words that you would have for the content creators in the audience or the, the people who want to create their first product? Any words of encouragement that you want to share with them?

Oh, I mean, I have a lot, but I would say Probably like my favorite gem is that your loved ones are not always your target demographic. You know, they're not. And just try your best to like not present all of your ideas to people like that because that they mean well and they want to support you and they want to see you do well, but they don't always know everything. So just have an open mind and try to go to other maybe entrepreneurs or friends who are in similar industries that you're trying to be in and trying to enter and you can really gain wisdom from so that there's no conflicting like, "Ooh, now I have to look at my friend differently because they told me my idea was a terrible one." You know what I mean? So just try to, I always try to say try to separate them a bit.

Yes, not everybody deserves to hear your ideas, okay?

That's also true. I mean, I didn't want to go that deep in it. I'm Nigerian, and we are very spiritual beings. I don't be telling nobody nothing until it come out. Like, after it launched, it was like, oh, you was working on that? Yep, I didn't tell you because you was gonna tell me it was a bad idea. I don't say nothing to nobody. I don't want to tell y'all. I don't want to like project that on the rest of y'all, but it is— I'm not gonna lie, sometimes it's more easy to just not share those things with people because I'm like, I know No, they're not. I'm going to have to explain it to them. You know what I mean? Yes. And when you're excited about something or when you're trying something new, sometimes the people that spend the most time with you, they may not get it. And it's okay. It's okay if they don't get it, but they're not always going to give you the best sound advice. So just try to, you know, keep that in mind and not get your feelings too hurt.

Yes. Thank you so much, Jackie.

Thank you.

This is awesome.

Thank you. Jackie Aina, everyone.