How I’m Launching My $5,000 Course in 4 Steps (Coaching Session) | 051

Today on the podcast, we switch things up a little bit. My guest is Derral Vesterfelt, who's one of the best marketers I know, and he coaches me on my new launch for the Creator Flywheels course.

A lot of times people are afraid of selling because they don't want to be inauthentic, right? If you start having the anxiety monster come up during this stage, we got to keep workshopping this until it's believable, right? And it's true.

I'm really excited for you to watch not only what I went through here, but also how you can apply it in your own launch.

Don't punch me when I ask this question, the next one. I see this mistake all the time. Here's what it is. It's this many lessons and this feature and that feature in one line, like what is the transformation that's going to happen?

That's the hard part. This is what we use ChatGPT for.

That's exactly right.

We get into the marketing, packaging, the positioning, the launch sequence, all of the tactics for launching a high-ticket course.

This is a secret point. Like a lot of times people skip this part of the process, Nathan. This is the kind of stuff that is really important for sales and growth to feel automatic is making your Derral, welcome to the show. Good to be here.

So you and I have talked a bunch over the years. You were on the, on the show a year ago or so as we talked summits, uh, and you just know the creator business inside and out. We're gonna do two things. First, I wanna get some quick context on your business, the experience that you have, and then I wanna flip things around. Like I've got you here in the studio, you know launches better than pretty much anyone else I know in the creator space. I have a launch coming up and I just want to get on the board and workshop it.

I love it.

Okay, so quick context. You worked at ConvertKit, now Kit, starting in 2016. 2016. So you joined when we were right about $1 million ARR.

Yep.

Stayed on the team for 15 months. And in that time we went to $7 million ARR, $8 million, somewhere right in there. Like just an absolute wild ride.

Yeah.

Pure chaos.

The reason I think you invited me to be the head of growth is because I knew the at the time, professional blogger world very well. Worked with some high-profile clients creating courses, helping them launch it, growing their email list, etc. So this kind of topic of conversation is something I've been doing for 15 years or so. This is like the world that I live and breathe now. I have an agency that works with top-level creators to build monetization strategies and do launches. I have some of my own companies around this as well. And so launching products inside of the creator world to an audience is something I know well.

Yeah, and so you've built multiple businesses to $2 to $3 million a year in revenue in the creator space just in the last couple of years. Correct. What a lot of people would use on their resume, you know, like over the last 20 years I built this business to $2 million, this business to $3 million. You're like, 20 years? No, 20 months.

I've done that in 24 months or so, yeah.

Yeah, it's wild to see that grow. And then just even in the, like the Hey Creator community. Yeah, you've got a lot of creators who are learning from you and Matt and others.

Yeah.

And you just get to see behind the scenes on what's working on all these launches and your coaching and developing creators and all that. So that's the context. And what I want to dive into today is I have a launch coming up. I have not launched a product, a new product in 10 years.

I think so. 2014 was Authority. Yeah.

Yeah. So we're at, we're at 10 and a half years now since I've launched a product. I'm diving back into it with this Creator Flywheels, uh, course and group coaching. It's a topic that I love. I talk about all the time. I teach it in masterminds and people are like, you have got to make like the definitive content on this. So, uh, last week I sat down in the studio. I've been developing it for like a year and a half of different versions, cohorts, all of that. And then last week I sat down in the studio and recorded the final version of it. So we're basically ready to go. There's just a handful of things in the launch that we've got to figure out.

This is like maybe the most important part of the process is I have made the mistake before of building an incredible product and not having a tactical launch plan and not seeing the results that my product deserved. And so I'm excited to talk about getting this the launch that this product deserves.

Cool. Well, let's jump up on the board and start to map it out.

Cool.

Okay. So it's creatorflywheels.com. And what it is is a course and group coaching program where I'm taking— it could be any business, but we're really focused on creators— into how to build these flywheels in their business and take things that are hard and complicated, and you're doing one-off, you're doing the hand pump version of it, and we want to implement the flywheels. So I've got 15 lessons or so, another 15 like case study examples, like you can use a flywheel copy and paste in your business. Got the spreadsheets and trainings, uh, and then twice a month we'll do a group coaching where, uh, we'll take flywheels that students are working on, workshop them live, you know, figure out, okay, how would you measure this, how would you improve it, uh, and then we also have a like flywheels concierge service where students in the community can submit their flywheel and then, uh, our team will see how to improve it and we'll workshop from there. So that's the offering as a whole.

Cool. So the first step I want to do here is I want to get into the narrow ideal customer.

Okay.

This is something that you and I actually are super passionate about based on our success at ConvertKit.

Yep.

Early days, it was professional bloggers back then. Who is the specific person that needs to be taking this course?

Okay.

And I see this mistake all the time, Nathan, is exactly what just happened happens all the time. Here's what it is. It's this many lessons and this feature and that feature. It's like, timeout, let's, let's fly a little bit higher. Let's make sure that we're really dialed in on who it's for. And the second thing we're gonna talk about is the transformation that person experiences. So who's the ideal customer here?

Okay, so the ideal customer is someone making, we'll say, $250,000 a year as a creator, and they are selling their own products.

Yep.

They probably have one team, one or two team member, freelancer, that sort of thing, a small team. And they're probably overwhelmed in some way. Cool.

Let's talk about that overwhelm a little bit. How is that overwhelm manifesting? And then what is the problems that it's potentially causing?

Yeah, let me write this out really quick.

Yep. So creator, professional creator, $250K. Yep.

1 to 2 team members. And I'll just say overwhelmed.

Overwhelmed. So the next portion of this is what I call the core problem. So this ideal person, what is the core problem that overwhelm, how is that manifesting in their business, in their life? What is that looking like? What is their core problem here?

Yeah, so I think they've always had a direct connection between effort and impact. And that's worked up until this point. They can put in a whole bunch of time and build their audience And then that results in an impact of a whole bunch of sales or new subscribers.

I already know where this is going because I know 10 people who are, who are like this. And so now the amount of effort that they put is not getting the kind of movement that it used to get anymore. And so they've hit the ceiling of the effort that they've put into their business having a direct result back. I think this is a perfect place. I think you and I could list like 5 or 6 people who we know personally where this is the case. I'm trying super hard, but I'm not getting the results I get to anymore. This could manifest probably in I'm making the same amount of money 2, 3, 4 years in a row.

Right.

I'm trying some different things and it's not working in the same way, or I'm doing the same stuff and I'm getting diminishing returns from those efforts. Revenue is flat. Question I have for you here, is this something you've experienced personally?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Where in your life can you point to a couple of points in your life that you could say I was experiencing this in this particular way?

Yeah, so I've experienced it at KITT where a particular channel has stalled out, or actually the one that I've experienced the most at KITT is when you stop focusing on something. Someone described it once as like the Eye of Sauron in Lord of the Rings, where it's like whatever it's looking at, you know, wherever your attention goes, that goes really well, and then it moves over here, and then it's just nice.

So as long as you're pumping the flywheel, it's working, but as soon as you take your hand off, it's not working.

Working anymore. Yeah, exactly.

Cool. That makes sense to me. So this is what's key about this is I think the best copy and positioning comes from empathy. And so if you have the ability to tap into a moment in time where it's like, I've actually experienced this before, that's where the supercharge in positioning comes here.

So one example of that is in one year, I built my audience on X from 30,000 followers to 100,000 followers. and it was this big push. I put a lot of effort into it. Yep. And we figured out what worked. We built systems for that. And then if you looked at that trend line, you would've assumed that the next year we'd go from $100,000 to $200,000. And instead I went from $100,000 to $120,000.

Yep.

And so it just completely tapered off.

Good. This is becoming really clear to me, right? So now we know the ideal customer. We know the core problem here. You've experienced this core problem.

Right.

Now, what is the transformation that this flywheels concept is going to give somebody who is experiencing this core problem?

Yeah. So what it's going to give is consistent results over a long period of time.

Great.

And the systems and structure that you or a team member can, can keep this running. And it's going to give you a disconnect between effort and impact.

Great. So say that in one sentence for me.

Oh, that's the hard part. This is what we use ChatGPT for.

Exactly right. It's actually a good, it's actually a good tool for this.

It is where it's like, all right, here's all this and distill it down.

We'll have to pretend like it's 2021 without AI.

Exactly. Old school.

Old school. We have to use our brains here.

So are you thinking going into the getting the pain point in there?

So the transformation, I think you did a good job of saying it, but it was Too long. I started checking out halfway through, right? So in one line, like, what is the transformation that's gonna happen? Key phrases that you said were consistent results. Yeah.

Do you think the effort versus impact line?

I think that's good. That's good? I think that's good.

Or is that?

Okay.

So I'm thinking about like how to disconnect effort from impact to get compounding results.

Yeah.

How to disconnect effort and impact to drive compound growth.

Great. This is okay, it's messy right now, but that's, we're making progress towards this, right? So we're going to say compounding impact for the effort in my business. And so that's, again, still a little bit messy. We can refine this a little bit later, but I think that's a good starting step. The next question I have is like, so that what? So that what happens? So I'm going to get compounding effect in my business so that what? So what we talked about is we talked about an external thing that's going to happen. And now we're getting into kind of the internal piece of it. So that what happens in my business?

I would describe it as this like feeling of settling.

Yeah.

Of like, oh, my time is freeing up, my calendar is freeing up, my anxiety is decreasing so that I can grow the business without burning out.

Yeah. Great. I mean, this is good. Also, by the way, I'm okay that this is a little bit awkward.

Yeah.

This is taking time. Like, this is a wrestling process that I think is really important because Intuitively, you know exactly why you've created this course.

Right, but we have to articulate it.

What we're doing is we're wrestling with the positioning, which I think is a very, very important part of this. So I think it's okay that this is a little bit of a struggle, that we're kind of workshopping some of these phrases a bit. And so positioning here, exactly right. So that I maybe can avoid burnout, so that maybe I can like my business again, so that I can feel like it's a path to freedom, not another job that I just don't like. Some of these phrases are kind of what I'm hearing you say.

Yeah. One phrase, I was talking to someone at the event we were both at in Atlanta, and we talked about, we came up with the line, like, this used to be fun. You know, and talking about that aspect of it. I can't remember if they were using that for one of their products, so I don't remember.

So this is a good callback to ConvertKit. Remember, this is what we did kind of unintentionally. Is Seth Spears, who's a friend of ours, one day was like, we were workshopping this, we were kind of wrestling through what ConvertKit is, and he said, it's the power of Mailchimp, or it's the power of Infusionsoft with the simplicity of Mailchimp. It's like, that was a thing that we held onto for years, actually.

We sold millions of dollars off of that.

So this process is what we're trying to get to, right? We're trying to get to a thing where it's like that easy to communicate what this course and product is.

Let me go back to the positive side, make sure I get something written down here. What was the, Calm, stress-free. Yeah, so that's in the, of what we're delivering. I'm just thinking about how we positioned the effort versus impact. It was like, was it disconnect effort and impact to get compound growth?

Yeah, compounding results by disconnecting effort from impact. And again, I think that's still clunky language, but again, we're moving in the right direction. And I think this is a secret point. Like, a lot of times people skip this part of the process, Nathan. And this is the kind of stuff that is really important for sales and growth to feel automatic, is making it really easy for people to understand. I think that's what we had, the magic of Kit early on, was that we had that simplicity and the positioning done really, really well. Okay, so I'm gonna do this again. We're gonna avoid stress and burnout. We're going to experience calm, lower stress, so that what?

Let's see, so that you can grow the business. I mean, removing yourself as a bottleneck. That's probably a line that people hear is like, oh, you're the bottleneck in this.

So I want to avoid burnout so that what? So why do I want to avoid burnout in my business?

So I can do this for a long time.

Bingo.

Compounding results.

Yeah.

Like, we need time. We need longevity.

Yeah. This is great. You're gonna notice a trend here. And don't punch me when I ask this question, the next one. We're gonna have longevity in our business so that what?

We can build long-term wealth. We can love what we're doing.

Yeah.

And we can have the impact.

So wealth, enjoyment, and impact. Great. Let's write that down. And I promise, don't punch me when I ask this next question.

I know where this is going.

Why do I want to build wealth? Why do I want to enjoy my job? And why do I want to make an impact? So that what happens?

I mean, for me, so I can reach my full potential.

Yeah.

So I can achieve what I know I'm capable of.

Okay. Did you just feel that?

I feel it, yeah.

That's what I call the drop moment, right? And so I want to keep asking this question, so that what, so that what, until we get to this moment where it's like we actually have a physical reaction to that, right? So say that again. So that? I can reach my full potential.

So I can reach, yeah.

Yeah. And here's what's amazing about this, Nathan, is your story, we've now connected your story 10 years ago, right? So you talk to me about this a lot where what was the reason that you doubled down on ConvertKit versus going back to your creator business?

Right, because I wanted to know, can I build this? I always thought I was capable of it, but I never wanted to have this disconnect and be the person who is saying, I think I could have done that if this had, if this had been different.

Or yeah, so that physical reaction, our hair on the back of our neck stood up, on our arms, it's like, so I can reach my full potential. Because you actually experienced that, you've had moments in your life where it's like, wait, I'm trying so hard, but I can't get the results that I know I'm happening. Now all of a sudden we're talking about the story of this course in a way that is way more impactful than, hey, like, learn this process so that you can—

10 hours a week.

Yeah, that's, that's cool, and that's great, but it's not this transcendent idea that I think is super important. So this right here is actually what we're selling. Creator Flywheels is not just a process to help you get 10 hours a week back. That is not very valuable. What it is, it's a process that you can reach your full potential. And that positioning is going to change the entire way that this is, this is going to go out.

I'm just going to get this bridge in here so that, so that Yep.

And then so on down from there. So how does that feel now? Like, it feels like this is a little bit more clear of like what this transformation is going to be.

We went from tactical transformations to like identity-level transformations.

Yeah.

All right. I like it.

Good. So now we've kind of got our ideal customer. So what I want to push here too is like, can you think of a person that is very specific that you wanna talk to here? And maybe it's a younger version of yourself, or maybe it's like a specific person that you like really can identify as somebody I'm gonna talk directly to here.

If I go to a younger version of myself, like I was at $250,000 in revenue, and then I had this idea that I could focus on building ConvertKit at the time and maintain the creator business. What actually happened is the moment I stopped pumping it, the creator business went down and then, you know, it grew ConvertKit.

So I think this is brilliant. So I think the businesses that I love the most is that the ICP here is actually a younger version of yourself.

Okay.

Right? Because really what you're able to do is you're able to like, all of the messaging of this course is a love letter to a version of yourself that you can really intimately talk to.

Right.

So that's great. That's who we're gonna talk to. We're gonna talk about 2014 Nathan.

Yep.

And like, Hey, if he would've known this flywheel process, there could have potentially been a different impact than he had. So now we're super intimate, we can be really empathetic because all you have to do is close your eyes and remember that time to be able to talk to this person. So I think this is a good kind of positioning point. Now let's talk a little bit about the offer. And so this is the first thing that you started talking about, which I think is actually the second thing that we talk about. So let's go over here and actually write down the offer that you have here.

Okay, so getting into which aspects of the offer.

So how are you going to help somebody reach their full potential? Like, so there's training.

Yeah.

There's the actual, like, the actual education of it.

And then, so training, coaching, and then I'm just gonna say resources.

Yep.

The actual templates that I use, all that.

And so what are the specific features of the training here?

So they're all videos, and they're walking through a lot of example flywheels in order to unpack the 3 laws of flywheels, you know, and like demonstrate them in real life, and then there's a lot of case studies walking through other businesses and how they've done it.

Great, and then what are the features of the coaching? How will that work?

Yeah, so live calls, having people in a hot seat where we're then taking their flywheel and workshopping it. And then taking questions on that. So it'll be a combination of probably first I'll teach a flywheel that I've come across, you know, or one that we've created, and then take one that's broken and, you know, from a student or something and workshop it and then take questions and learn from that.

Great. And then what will the resources look like? What is the feature of the resources?

Yeah, the resources are, The, a lot of example flywheels that you can clone, you know, copy and paste into your business.

Great.

So making that as much done for you as possible. The templates on like here's the spreadsheets of here's how you would actually measure and track a flywheel.

Yep.

Those would be the two main things. More stuff beyond that, but focus on that.

Great. Okay, so here's the question I'm gonna ask that I think you already know where I'm going with this. Is 2014 Nathan, is this helpful to him in a way? Like, what does he think about this as a way to solve the problem that he has?

I'm a little split on me as the ideal customer because I was trying to automate something so that I could do something else.

Yeah.

Whereas I think most of people that I'm doing want to do the same thing they're doing, want to do the same thing. But if we set that aside, I would want the plug-and-play version of it, right?

Yeah.

So The training is important so I can understand it. The coaching, yeah, is important so that I can put it in real-life practice. Because I think there's a lot of times that you come across courses or material and it's like, well, yeah, that works there, but my situation is unique.

Correct.

And then the resources, I want the plug-and-play version. I want to be able to flip through the book and be like, oh, that one would solve my problem. Like another example of the resources is I have a library of steps that can go into the flywheel. So you flip to the section on, okay, I'm trying to save more time with this flywheel. Okay, here are 8 steps that I can choose from that actually save time.

Yeah. So this is great because you were busy at the time.

Yep.

You had kids at the time. You had business going on. What is the offer that is going to feel so on point that you're going to feel stupid saying no to it? Right? Like, oh, I'm so confident in what is being offered here that it's going to solve my problem, and I want to make sure there's no gaps missing in that. Does that make sense? So plug and play was something that you said right away that stood out to me. So it's like the training's important because you have to understand the concepts. The coaching is important, but I even may be too busy to show up to some of that stuff. Like, how do I actually take this training, take this stuff, and implement it to my business is super key. So let's make sure that our ICP is not having any level of objection to the offer here. So what are some objections that you think that the ICP might have to spending money to solve the problem in this way?

Okay, so let me write down objections. Objections they might have. Time to implement.

Yep.

Let's say time. I like unique business. It won't work for me. Yep.

That's a good one. It won't work for me.

I think another one could be I don't have the team to run it. Yep. Say team.

It's like how will a flywheel actually impact me? I'm a solo business.

We'll say team/solo.

Yeah. How about this one? Is it actually gonna work?

Yeah, like, am I just buying, you know, an idea that's thrown out there? Is this just the hot new thing?

Yep.

Right.

This is a common one. It's like, do I feel confident that if I invest the time and the money for this, it's actually gonna impact? Will it work?

It's kind of a big one.

It's kind of a big one. And here's one that I just would like— spoiler alert, this isn't for everybody— is, is it worth it, right? Is the value there? That's, that's an objection that whether you're selling a $9 product or a $9,000 product, I think is always there. So let's talk about each of these objections really quickly and just kind of verbalize some of this out. And if you can be recording— and we actually are recording conveniently— but while you're doing this at home, if you can be recording this, like, either in like kind of like just stream of thought journaling, or if you can record yourself talking it out, whatever is easy, this is going to be the gold in the copy that you write down the road.

So that's something where if we weren't doing this in the studio, live, we'd have our phone on the table talking it out. Or record the screencast, you know, of just working the Google Doc, brainstorming things.

Correct. So, time to implement. This is gonna take me too long. I'm already busy. I'm already overwhelmed.

In the course, we talk about what flywheel you should build first, and it's the one that frees up the most time.

Yeah.

And so we've already tackled that and we have the plug-and-play resources to help you.

Yeah.

To take as much of it out of that as possible.

Yeah. So is that the first thing that you learn when you come in is like which flywheel?

It's not the very first thing, but it's, it's pretty early on in the course. Yeah.

So there's a term here, an old school term here that I'm gonna hit on. It's like risk removal here.

Okay.

So how can you remove the risk of, hey Nathan, I'm already overwhelmed, I've already got too much time, I don't have time to even do the things that I know I'm supposed to be doing, how can I even make time to learn something?

Right.

So why do I, why can't I afford, what's the risk removal that you can create for me here that makes it a no-brainer for me to say I have to invest the time?

Yeah, there's two ways that I could see going with this. One is talking through how easy Or like, I actually never want to make something sound easy. Like, that's just one of the things in the way that I sell.

It's inauthentic and it's not true.

Yeah. And so I want to, I tend to talk, you know, if I'm recruiting someone to my company, I'm like talking about how hard the problems we are to solve, here's why they shouldn't join. So I almost want to do the same thing here. But the—

And by the way, I want to pause here for a second because I think this is a huge deal. I think a lot of times people are afraid of selling because they don't want to be inauthentic.

Right.

Right. So this has to be believable too. Like we can't just make something up like, hey, in 15 days you're going to get 2x the result. Like we all know the companies and the creators that do that and we just don't believe them. It's not believable. You want to be authentic here. So I think this is a huge point is like if you start having the anxiety monster come up during this stage, it's like good news. It's like, we gotta keep workshopping this until it's believable and it's true. We're not lying to somebody here. I think that's super key as part of these objections.

I think, so on the time, what I would say is two parts, or three things. First, it's gonna take a lot of time. Second, not only is it worth it, but you actually don't have another choice. Because we think about burnout and longevity and then reaching your full potential. Like, if you're actually pursuing those things, you have to do it. With systems and flywheels, and, you know, you will not last as a business. That might be too much fearmongering, but like, you're not going to achieve your full potential if you don't do that.

Yeah, it's like you can't afford not to.

You can't afford not to.

Yeah, because the result of you not doing this is more of what you currently have.

Right.

And you already are feeling overwhelmed. You're already feeling like, I know my potential is here, but I'm actually right here, and there's a gap between those two things.

And then I think the third thing as it relates to the time objection is that you don't have to overhaul everything. We're going to start with one simple flywheel that frees up the most of your time. And even if that's the only impact you get out of this, we're freeing up 5 to 10 hours a week that then you can, you know, use to implement more flywheels or even just stick with like only that flywheel, that's all I got. And it's like, okay, cool. I just saved, you know, 3,000 hours a year. You know, it wouldn't be that much, but you know, you get the idea.

Cool. That's a good, that's a good objection, a response to that objection. It won't work for me. This is something I want to dive into again. We're kind of risk removal here a little bit. Social proof. So what's really cool is you've talked about the creator flywheels so much so far. Is you have case studies of different types of people who've used this.

Yes.

Right? So it won't work for me. The way to overcome this objection is who are the stories you can tell of people using this framework who have maybe a diverse background that people can say, oh, I see myself in this person and they've used this process and it's worked for them. So I think that's one here. So tell me a couple of like maybe wide array of people. I know that you talk about Sahil quite a bit.

Yeah, but another one, He was actually a student in one of the early cohorts, is Jay Claus, who then went in and implemented the content ideas flywheel, and we now have this beautifully produced video that the kit team did of him talking through the impact that that's had on his business. And that's a flywheel that, for anyone who produces, you know, a weekly newsletter or something like that, which is a lot of my ideal customers, they implement even just that one flywheel, you know, it'll save a few hours a week, and they'll start to, see those results.

So that's a good example. You probably want to have 2 or 3 diverse stories or testimonials like that in your sales messaging on your sales page and in your emails whatsoever. So that's a good example. We won't dive into all of those, but that's great here. So how about the objection of, I don't have a team, Nathan? Good for you, buddy, but you've got 60 employees at Kit and you've got personal people who help you record your content. I don't have a team. I'm just a solo person. What about the objection for that?

I think that in that case, this is even, even more important, or just as important. And the reason is that if you don't have a team, you also don't have a boss who will keep you consistent and on task. And if we're trying to create compounding results, we need to find a system to do the same things over and over again for a long period of time. And so you can reach your full potential. But it's that, like, I think so many of us who have built solo businesses at one point in our careers do this thing where we just jump, we're scattered, we jump from thing to thing. And so it's so important if you don't have a team to have the systems and the accountability to stay consistent for a long time.

That's good. Okay, so objection here, will it work? This kind of ties back to here as like the testimonials and the social proof here. It's really cool if Nathan tells me that it works, but Nathan has a financial incentive to tell me that it works whether it works or it doesn't. So this is great here to overcome these objections of will it work is testimonials and stories. That is key, key, key here. It's like let Jay tell you how it works. Let somebody else tell you. Because again, cool if you tell me it works, even better if somebody tells me how using Nathan's process has worked for them. So I think that's good here. And then is it worth it? It's here. So this is gonna like lead into pricing a little bit.

Right.

So let's, let's put a pin in this. Let's talk about the price of it. So what were you kind of thinking as far as pricing the product? And I know you've done some cohorts before.

Yep.

So what have you seen working as far as pricing so far? And what were you kind of thinking? Let's, let's kind of talk through that.

Yeah, so I've done 2 cohorts, each of 10 people.

Yep.

The first one, I taught all the material live. And saw what questions we had, you know, went from there.

Which is brilliant, by the way. Good job.

Thank you.

Take a lesson from that, anybody who's creating a course or a program for the first time.

Then the second cohort, I had created scripted lessons, and then I recorded them all, but, you know, home office, put them all on Loom so people could leave comments anywhere they had questions, 1.5 speed, you know, whatever. And then So it was basically sort of like, if anyone remembers Khan Academy, right? It was where, you know, traditional classroom is you learn the material in class, you do the homework by yourself, and it's like, no, no, no, let's flip that. So this was the homework is learning the material, and then our in-class time was workshopping and answering questions.

I like that.

Working through flywheels. So I was the second cohort, and then now we're coming up on, you know, the third iteration. And so what I'm thinking about now is just how to package and position that. But you're talking about, is it worth it, or where were you going from there?

Yeah, so like, what is your kind of intuition saying as far as pricing goes on this?

Oh, right.

Let's start with the intuition, because I think that's a good starting point. It is not the only starting point, but it's point one in the framework of how you think pricing should work here. So what's your intuition about pricing?

First, I want to focus on professional creators who really value their time and my time. I wanna create transformations for people at that level. And so I wanna price this high, the highest I've ever priced anything. And so talking to other creators, like I've learned from Dan Martell and others. So gut feeling is to do something like $8,000 a year for the group coaching for everything. And then I do want to make the material accessible. Like, that, that's a high price, right? And a lot of people won't be able to afford it. And so thinking about something like, uh, $3,000 for the training and the resources.

Great.

Uh, but not—

so let's write that down, kind of like your pricing up here. Let's get over here. Is your intuition is saying somewhere in that $8,000 to $10,000 or $8,000 range for the year? Yeah.

And then—

Cool. So tell me really quickly the difference between these. So this would be access to the training and then a year of the coaching.

Yeah.

And then also you have access to the resources as well. Is that kind of how it would work?

Yeah, exactly.

Great.

So this is the— what is that, $600 a month? Yeah, something like that.

And then the $3,000 would get just access to the training and no coaching? Correct.

Training and resources. No coaching.

Great.

And that would be a one-time payment of $3,000.

Great.

Yeah.

And would this have the ability to do monthly, or how would that work?

Yeah, trying to figure that out. I could see doing like maybe it's 3 months for $3,000, or there's something where it's a much higher price per month, but if you don't wanna make that commitment. 'Cause the one thing that I'm wrestling with is I want to price it high enough that I'm only getting people in who are really committed, and where the transformation is meaningful. There's gonna be people who are like, oh, if I free up 10 hours a week, that's actually only worth, you know, a few hundred bucks a week, and it's like, sorry.

You can't even in good conscience say it's worth spending that money if you're not getting good results.

If you're not making hundreds of thousands of dollars in your business already. And I say $250, but like, I've already helped people who are making $1 million, $3 million, or more.

Correct, but that's at least the baseline. That's the hurdle to jump over.

So yeah, there's some monthly offering or some lower-priced offering that maybe comes out to $1,500 a month or $1,000 a month.

Yeah.

'Cause $8,000 is a good amount of money to commit to something.

I agree. You and I have kind of talked offline about some of this. I think I'm actually coming around to this $8,000 price point more and more. One framework that I want to talk about here that we can't do in this context right now is, I think about real estate. So if you're gonna put your house on the market tomorrow, what's the first thing the real estate agent does?

They look at comps.

They look at comps, right? And so one thing that can help you, especially with a new product, is looking at comps. So are there similar programs out there for similar people that is in the same range? And am I in the right neighborhood here? Because What you don't want to do is, especially without a ton of context here, and again, the more people that go through this program, you'll be able to kind of find your footing of what is the best pricing long-term. But do we have comps? Like, can I tell myself a story that's believable that $8,000 is an amount of money that people in my ICP are going to pay for the transformation that we're talking about here? So that's some homework that I want you to do a little bit offline here is looking at other programs and seeing if the comps are kind of in that right range.

Yeah, I think of two people. So I mentioned Dan Martell. This is the pricing that he uses, right? I was asking him what should I do, and he's like, honestly, this works great. I would go with that. Another is Bonnie Christine. She has a program, pricing is similar. She's got it structured a bit differently. And then there's someone else, Mike Brown, who has a course and community called Unbreakable Wealth. And so they're all roughly in this range.

So this is a believable story that this is the right range based the comps that you've looked at?

I think so.

Cool, great.

Now I'll just say that on one hand I'm very confident in the value delivered.

Yeah.

Right, some of these flywheels, like the ones that I teach in the course that work with Sahil Bloom, I mean, that flywheel has made millions of dollars. And so like, you know, $500, $600 a month for that level of content, that's absolutely huge. But I do have this like, oh, am I charging too much for it? Or, you know, when we're talking back to 2014 Nathan, I'm thinking about the products I was selling then were like $40, $250. You know, like that was the range. And so this is entirely different territory. But then at the same time, I'm like, look, I've built a business to $40+ million a year in revenue. Like for this to even be worth my time, It needs to be something. I gotta charge a lot.

You're hitting on some really great points, and I want to just like normalize this for anybody who's thinking about pricing is like, even Nathan, who's built a $40 million a year company, is like, is this too much? Like, is it worth it? That's a normal part of the process. And so you kind of know that you're in the right range when you're feeling some of those like questions popping up. So I just want to affirm that a bit. The one strategy that we can do here is because the more social proof that you have, the more powerful overcoming these objections are. The more powerful it becomes seeing people actually have this transformation is, like a founding member pricing. And I've seen this often work really well for people is, hey, the first group of people that come through, it's normally gonna be $8,000, but it's gonna be $6,000 or $5,000 the first time through. I'm gonna limit it to 50 people and that's it. So some sort of like founder member pricing I've seen be a really positive strategy. That will also then give you the confidence of like, Oh wait, people are really responding here. We can build some momentum, we can get some more case studies and testimonials as well. This, what this does, why I like this strategy is because there's a network effect that happens when you have people taking the course.

Right.

Right? And that's a natural way for this to grow is some of what we're doing is like making this feel automatic a bit. The positioning is going to allow it to feel automatic because people really clearly understand And then it's like when other people are selling on your behalf because they're having a transformation, they can't help talk about the transformation they're having, it's just, it's beneficial to you. So I like this founder member price. As I say that, what's your intuition say about maybe a founder?

I think it makes sense overall, what you're talking about, that flywheel that word of mouth drives. So I think of a couple things that more members helps with, right? It's driving word of mouth. It's also making the content and training better. 'Cause if we're overcoming the objections of will it work or it won't work for me, and then time to implement, those are things that better resources and better training and better coaching help with. And so I'm not worried in the short term, but like I have I think 15 flywheel examples that you can copy and paste in your business. My dream over time is to get that to 50.

50.

And, you know, I want this huge library that you can flip through and see all these examples and you're like, oh, here's it working for all of these students. And so having more members gives me more flywheels to workshop and fix and then to put into my library. And so the founder member price of maybe something like $5,000. Yeah. I think fits well with that of I can get, you know, another 20, 50 members in at that price, then I know it will get that much better and will create even more transformations. And we'll do it more officially. Like a lot of the transformations I've created have been like an in-person workshop that I've been teaching. You know, and it's mostly the same material, but like that even was as I was workshopping this year.

This is now taking its final form.

Its final form.

And so this is a great way to get the momentum in the final form here.

What do you think? Like, how is $5,000?

That feels right to me. That was like my intuition as well. I think $5,000 is great. Now, a question I have for you is, are you gonna wanna limit the amount of people that you make this pricing available to?

Oh yeah, every launch needs scarcity of some kind.

Yeah, exactly right. That was a softball setup for you. So let's talk about scarcity for a little bit on the launch here. There's gonna be two levers of scarcity that we wanna hit on. One is there's a limited number of opportunity for this deal, and this is an amazing deal. I don't know what the percentage off here is, but it's pretty significant. 40-something percent, probably. So percent off here and then a time frame. Like you can only get access to this deal for this period of time. So you're kind of like dual scarcity here, which I think is interesting.

So time and count?

Time and count. Okay. So time and count are going to be our scarcity levers that we pull on here.

So let's go time. And then I'll just say seats.

Yep. So let's talk about seats first.

Yeah.

How many seats make sense for a group of people coming in initially here?

You know, the previous two cohorts have been 10, and that's where I can really invest individually.

Yeah.

But I was really, you know, I spent a lot of time on their individual flywheels and all that because I was developing the material. I don't think 10's not really worth it at this stage for my time. You know, this is a pretty privileged position to be, but if we're going just 10 times $5,000, it's $50,000. Kit made that yesterday.

Yeah.

You know, like, that's not—

By lunch yesterday, yeah.

That's not that meaningful.

And you've also hit that number before. Right? So we're wanting to stretch here a little bit to see what the possibility of this business line is for you.

Yeah, so that's the, that's probably the absolute floor that would make any sense. 50 feels kind of like the top end of—

So 10 makes it worth it. 50 is maybe our stretch goal. So maybe let's put like 25 as like, hey, if we hit 25, this would be a home run. Yeah. Or it'd be a good hit and the home run would be 50.

We're on base.

We're on base. We're on base. We're in business here. I like that. So kind of our range here is 10, 25, 50 as far as a goal here. So this is super important for the goal.

So let's just, I'll just write that. 10, 25, and 50.

Great.

So 10 would be, this is actually something I've wrestled with, is like doing a small launch Like, hey, you know, we did, we've just iterated through this. Especially because this is kind of my side hustle, right? It's like, the main business is obviously the focus. So I've done these 10-person cohorts, and so then it's like, now it's in its final form, let's do another 10-person cohort in order to test it out. It was kind of where I was at, but then now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, no, we've done the test iterations, like I know this works, and so something bigger. So actually, for me, it's 25 or 50. Yeah, look at that. Look at the progress we're making.

Yeah, 25 or 50. That's great. So this is the range that I think you'll feel really comfortable in, right? So no more than 50 can be there, but we want to really hit 25. So here's how I do the math on a high-ticket offering for 25. I think a waitlist strategy to some kind of launch— we'll talk about the specific launch in a little bit— would be key. So I think of a waitlist, building a waitlist, there are some factors here that are super important. Number one is that people know this pricing, right?

Which at the moment they don't.

They don't. So I think you've built a little bit of a waitlist around the Flywheel stuff, a bit.

Yeah, so we have 1,000 people on the waitlist.

Great.

Some of them will, some of the early people will have known the price of the previous cohorts, but most people don't know the price or the offer.

Great. And then the Bigger email list that you're gonna promote to is how much?

49,000.

49,000, great. So the math I do in my head here is high ticket, if they know the, so they know the price, 7.5% conversion of a waitlist. So people who are raising their hand saying I'm interested in this thing you're selling and I know the price to get to 25. So let's do the math backwards of this.

So if you're 1,000 people, if they knew the price, then you'd be going to 7.

So let's start with 25 If 7.5% conversion equals 25, what is the waitlist number goal that we're working towards here?

Is that 330?

That's good, you got a phone. Let's use your calculator here.

Okay. I think it's—

So 25 divided by 0.075.

Yeah, 333.

So 333 people is the goal here. What's that for 50 then? 666? Yeah. We'll call it 667 just to be safe. Exactly. So these are kind of the goal numbers that we want to have of people who are raising their hand and saying, I know the price, I know the content, and I want this course. And I think that will set us up for success here as well.

So what's the 7.5%? What's that based on?

Based on 15 years of doing this and just kind of knowing the range of this. So I've done at this point dozens and dozens of high-ticket launches before. So I just kind of in my mind know that's a goal that I'm moving here to. Towards that.

Now one thing that I'm thinking about is I've got people on this from quite a few different sources. Some is from my list, others, you know, I talked about Flywheels on the Mighty Networks summit, right? And so one thing that I did is I gave away a bunch of these resources and people were signing up for the waitlist in that. So, you know, you're getting some very, very warm traffic and some very cold traffic.

So what we have now is we have a few phases of your marketing. So we've got all the public stuff, the social, the podcast, the things that are— people have not opted in for yet. That's one phase. Another phase is the email list. The next phase down is the waitlist as is. And so we want to create strategies for each of those phases that drives to this new waitlist between 333 and 667 people. So We kind of want to forget about the people who've raised their hand so far, and we want to think about a timeline over the next few weeks before you launch this of getting this many people on a new waitlist.

Okay.

And saying like, hey, it's actually here, it's actually coming, this is what it looks like. And we want to talk about, we want to hit on the ideal customer, we want to talk about the transformation, we want to talk about the offer, we want to overcome some of these objections. And what we're really trying to get to is this number of people on a waitlist who know the price, and then also know the timing of when it's gonna happen. And I think the ideal timeframe is 4 to 6 weeks before you want to open the cart on your offering here.

Okay, so we're going new waitlist.

New waitlist.

And this is, it's basically just downstream of our previous offering.

So you have 1,000 people who are the most highly qualified people so far, but we have to qualify them in the next level of saying, hey, this, this opportunity is coming up in a few weeks and here's the price, right? So a bunch of people are going to be like, ooh, that's not— I'm not the right person for this, or ooh, now is not the right time. And so what this new waitlist is doing is like right people, right timing.

Okay, so we're qualifying the new waitlist with price and timing?

Correct. So there's We can talk about a bunch of different tactics here, and that may be worth our time to get specific about all the tactics you can use, but I like things like just emails to these people. Hey, let's do stories. Let's take clips from a podcast. Hey, let's record a podcast episode about this coming out.

This will work pretty well for that.

So what just happened is now we've used content that's going to be beneficial for other people, but now anybody who is going to be qualified here also just learned a lot about your course.

Something that I've seen people do is record like a fairly casual Loom to one person.

Justin Moore is the best at this.

Okay.

He does this all the time. I think it's— Jay Claus does this sometimes too. So yeah, I think that's really great.

Where you're just like sending, you know, the— to the 1,000 people that we have and say, hey, just want to give you a heads up of what I'm working on. You know, I've been working through these cohorts. I'm super excited about where the course is, it's dialed in. And so I just wanted to let you know, we're gonna be launching it, here's the dates, here's the price, here's who, you know, some of that. So you have all the correct positioning and all of that, but maybe it's done in a less polished way, like more telling a friend about it versus a perfectly scripted course trailer.

[Speaker] And I think for that 1,000 people, that's brilliant, 'cause they've already indicated they're interested on some level.

Right.

So I think that's a brilliant message. So if we're talking a 4-week window here, I would message those people 4 to 6 times via email to that 1,000-person waitlist to get them to qualify here. Yep. Right, so I think 4 to 6 is about the right amount of touchpoints with those people. So I think the casual Loom video is a great example of that. I think just a basic email like, hey, I've been working on this for a long time. You've been waiting for this, it's coming. An excited announcement, a Loom video walking through the features a little bit, a story, you telling a story of like the full potential stuff here. It's like, let's get that hair standing up on our arm feeling again and create some content that's like a love letter to somebody who feels like they're trying really hard and not hitting their potential. So you can get like a mix of different content types here that are getting that. But I think 4 to 6 emails to that 1,000 person is really key. So the second thing is, to your bigger list, it was like you said 40 to 50,000, 49,000 people, I like teaching, so why don't we do a webinar in the next month teaching the flywheel concept, and we're not gonna sell the flywheel course on that webinar, we're going to move those people into qualifying them onto the waitlist, right? So I think that's a good example of the bigger email list here. I'm signing you up for work in the next month.

Yeah, and so that's driving people into the waitlist.

Yep. And what's really great about that is like you don't have to get super concerned about like, is my pitch dialed in right or any of that stuff. What we're really doing is just saying like, hey, I built this thing, right? 20-some people have gone through it. I've talked about it everywhere. Here's the price. It's coming up in a few weeks. Like, just opt in here.

And one of my favorite things in any pitch is to separate the convincing you you should buy, like making you want the thing and giving you the ability to buy it and having those be entirely separate.

Correct. This was a secret playbook that we had at ConvertKit.

Oh yeah, we did it all the time. And so in this webinar where we're teaching, at the end you might set a, like, hey, here's where you, you know, normally there'd be a pitch to buy something. We're actually not ready to launch it yet. It's coming. In this time period. If you're interested, you know, if you meet these things and you don't meet these disqualifiers, like here's where you can sign up or apply or whatever. And then we can like build that momentum and tease it without actually being available.

And here's why I love teaching so much as a sales strategy is because for that 49,000 people, you can have, again, probably 4 to 6 touchpoints about this webinar, and anybody who's not interested is gonna be like, man, that Nathan's a great guy, he just teaches free content all the time. And I'm not then like pulling deposits out of my list by doing pitches when it's unnecessary.

So anybody— Yeah, so we're getting, you know, maybe, right, 'cause we're trying to get to 600, 700 people. And so, yeah, we're just trying to hand raise from there.

Exactly right. And so if somebody doesn't register for the webinar here, they're probably not the right person at the right time ready for this content. They probably aren't resonating with the positioning here, or they're not the ideal customer. And all they've heard is that Nathan teaches free content, and again, like that's a benefit to them. And then I think for the top level stuff, social, the webinar's also really great and easy to convert to. So now we're moving people who are on social that are not on the email list that we can really talk about.

Yep, that makes sense.

Here's the next level. You've had how many people go through the, The previous cohort's about 20. So you've got 20 people who could also help you share about this webinar. Hey Jay, would you be willing to share about this, this thing that you had a positive impact on? Would you be willing to like, you know, do something on Instagram together, a social post, or send an email or mention it in your newsletter? And if you really wanted to, you could figure out some sort of affiliate commission on that, or even just see if people just want to help. So you kind of now got 4 phases. Here, which is the really qualified people, the 1,000, the 49,000 people. We're going to do this with a high-value webinar, the social people, and then you're asking, giving the ability for other people to share about this as well. So all of this towards a goal of getting this many people on the waitlist. And then we're just going to run a sales sequence to these people for that waitlist.

Yep.

When the time's right to open the cart. And I think The ideal timeframe here is because again, we've got both a time and seats. So the timeframe here is like 7 days. So probably a 7-day email launch sequence to these people. And this is like, this is the old school stuff that we've done for a long time, right?

Okay, so we're going a 7-day window on the launch.

7-day window on the launch. But the other caveat here is that like there is, like that 7-day window could be gone in 3 days. So we really want to amp up the urgency of that early on because we have a dual, dual urgency here. So I would be sending an email per day to this waitlist for 7 days. Yep. And starting there, one kind of other caveat here is a $5,000 purchase is not insignificant.

Yeah.

Even for somebody who's making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year.

Oh yeah.

So what we can do outside of the emails is maybe opening up a couple of Zoom calls where you could do like group sales. Okay. So that way it's like maybe, you know, on day 3 or 4, you're saying, hey, I'm actually gonna open up an hour on Zoom today where I'm gonna answer any questions. And that Zoom is only for the people on this list here, right? People who are qualified. So you're not getting, some random person who wants to ask Nathan about a SaaS startup that he's got going on or whatever else. So it's the qualified people, giving them an ability to ask some of the questions they have live. And what's really cool about this is you could potentially even hear objections that we haven't thought about here yet, in real time.

And then maybe the objections I hear there, I might write into a day 6 email.

Exactly right. It can affect the copy, the rest of the— the rest of the script through, so.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

So how are you feeling about all this so far? I know we've gone like drinking out of a fire hydrant so far, but how is this feeling as far as the strategy goes?

Yeah, I feel good about it. I think that the new waitlist really clarifies a lot on, you know, anytime you're building a waitlist over a long period of time, you know that there's like 4 cohorts in there. In all these different attributes. And so you're like, okay, how do we build confidence in that? And how do we make sure it's— before it's a waitlist for something about flywheels, and now it's a waitlist. The new one is a waitlist for this offer about—

at this price, at this time, right? So somebody could have joined that waitlist thing and like, man, I can't wait for this $200 course that Nathan's got about flywheels. And they're like, that's totally wrong context.

That's launching in, you know, January 2024 was what they were expecting.

And now it's November. Yeah, exactly right. So what other questions might come up about this? But I feel, I feel this is a good plan for you. But what questions or things are you thinking about here?

How do you think about when to introduce sales? So you talked about group sales here. Maybe that's where we're kind of at, at that price point. There's a lot of people who, you know, are seeing at this, you know, $3,000, $5,000, $8,000, $10,000 price point. That it actually requires more of a conversation with someone.

Yeah.

How do you think about that?

So I like doing this initial founder member launch without sales other than this group sales call first to see what happens. Okay. So if, if for some reason we were to get 18 people here, it'd be a little bit disappointing, but we've learned a lot.

Right.

And one of the things we might have learned is like, actually, people need to have a conversation here. And so that's when you can introduce maybe more of a traditional sales motion to a higher price point here in a future state. But this is like the number one objective of this founder pricing is actually learning.

Right.

Right. Because we're doing something we've never done before at a price we've never done before. So we want to learn as much as possible. So we'll learn quite a bit here. And I think the second time, the second iteration of this is the perfect time to potentially introduce sales in there if you need to have that motion. And you're for sure going to learn that on this founder launch.

Okay, that makes sense. And then as I think about long term, you know, I plan to have some pretty significant budgets around paid advertising. And so that might be—

You have dual strategies, both sales and marketing working hand in hand here.

That makes sense. Okay, I think that's good. Maybe have a seat and we'll recap it a little bit.

Yeah, sounds good.

Okay, so when we were talking about this, I was very excited about the launch, but there's some details that didn't fit together. So a few of those things were, I felt like the packaging or the positioning still wasn't quite right. I think what I was doing is I was targeting like a mid-level need, not a core desire. And so I can reach my full potential. Is—

And we hit that drop moment. And it was like, if you were in the room, you could feel it. You could actually feel that. And I think you want to keep doing that so that, so that, so that until you hit that moment. And that's how you know you've hit something real.

And I liked how you called out, you're like, and you're going to hate me. You're going to be annoyed by this, but you know the question's coming next. And I was like, I don't have anything deep. Oh, oh yeah, no, I do have.

And here's why you do it. Because good positioning, you can never out-tactic good positioning. If you have good positioning here, you could be a mediocre marketer and get good results. But you could be an excellent marketer and have horrible positioning and it won't have good results. So this is part of what I call the damn near automatic principles, is making sure the positioning hits that point where it's like, I'm actually moved, my physical body is moved when I think about this. That allows you to have a wide range of results here. That's the key. That's the foundation of everything. So that's why I started, like, notice the conversation. This happens all the time. It's like, all right, it's 15 lessons and it's this and it's this. It's like, timeout, timeout, slow down. Let's go back up. And this is a hugely important part of the process.

Yep. I like that. And all the other elements of the positioning still matter. Like we'll touch on those too, but through that, through that lens. The other thing that made a big difference for me is the new waitlist.

Yeah.

Because I knew that, yes, I've got 1,000 people, but they're for Flywheels as a whole. And it's a different level of qualification.

Here's how you become a good marketer and also stay aggressive and also a good human at the same time.

Right.

Right people, right time.

Mm-hmm.

Right? So we're gonna talk about 4 to 6 messages to the wider audience, but like this group of people here, we can be more aggressive because they've raised their hand and we know they're interested. So we don't have to have any half measures in our marketing here. And this subconsciously happens to so many people where it's like, I'm not sure if that's it, so I'm only gonna do a half measure of promoting this product because I kind of have in the back of my mind this fear that some of these people might not be interested. Well, guess what? We know that this group, this new waitlist is very interested, so we don't have to hold anything back when we're marketing this. One thing that you should also do in this launch sequence is a link trigger at the bottom of your emails. Hey, if you're not interested in this for whatever reason, feel free to opt out. You'll still get the rest of my content. You'll be able to go. That allows you to have no half measures when you're promoting this. Right. And that's super key when you get there is right people, right time.

Yeah, I love that. And then I think the last thing that stands out is— or two more things. One, on the price, you know, we can say the final positioning is going to be $8,000 and $3,000, but we're doing this founder member pricing.

Yep.

And, you know, gives us another form of urgency. Understanding how more members feed the flywheel, that makes a lot of sense. And then the other thing is the objections, right? As we create a sales page and videos for this, just making sure, did we answer these questions? And now I have, like, I can test it against, you know, friends who fit, you know, the ideal customer and say like, okay, what, What objections do you have? And did it meet some of these objections?

And we've done a good job being really thoughtful about these objections, but you called this out in the group sales call and in the early emails. You want to pay attention to what people are actually saying.

Right.

The replies you're getting from them.

'Cause we're theoretical.

We're theoretical right now.

But by day 3 of our launch, if we do it right, we could be very, like, actually what we think is right.

And here's the best part is you're going to get the actual words from your actual people about the objections they have, actually respond in a way that is authentic and true and helps them overcome the fears or thoughts they might have that's hindering them from making a buying decision.

Yeah, the authenticity all the way through is so, so important.

Yep.

Darryl, this is amazing. Thanks for coming on. If people want to know more about what you do, any of those things, where should they go to follow you?

Just find me on LinkedIn and send me a DM. I'd be happy to talk to you.

Darryl Westerveld on LinkedIn.

Yeah.

Sounds good. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks, man.

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