Amy Chang - Entrepreneur & Angel Investor

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And welcome back to the Tacos and Tech Podcast. I am here at Nest, coworking with their podcast studio with Amy Chang, entrepreneur, angel investor and healthcare analyst.

Thank you. Hi.

Thanks for being here. This is great.

This is awesome. Thank you, Neil.

Well, we have a lot to talk about and not so much time. We love chatting about angel investing.

We do.

Which is probably what we're going to talk about mostly.

That's cool.

But we're going to get to know you a little bit, too. Can you tell us how you got started down this whole crazy road? Where'd you go to school? Where'd you grow up?

I grew up in West Covina, California, which is in.

It's east of east la. And then I went off to college. College at UC Berkeley. Was in the Bay Area for nine years, came back down to Southern California. So I've been here in San Diego for quite a while.

Okay, what actually brought you to San Diego?

I had an ex husband who was in biotech.

He actually was at Illumina in the.

Early days and we thought San Diego.

Would be a place where we could both have a career.

Okay, and what were you doing right out of college? Like, were you in the biotech space too?

No. So I was not an entrepreneur until in my 40s. I took that total corporate route out of college. I worked at kpmg. I was a cpa.

I just thought there's got to be.

More to business than accounting.

So I went back and got my.

MBA at Cal and then did strategy consulting for a few years. After that I came down to San Diego and I had this great job at AMN Healthcare where I advanced my career. I became the VP of Strategy and Investor Relations. I was there for a total of 14 years before I left. I was a complete wage earning corporate person for a very long time and I kind of grew up with not a huge risk appetite. When you grow up in an Asian family, your parents are like, just go get educated and go get a good job.

Got it. Tell us about what was AMN like right when you got there for 14 years? I mean, you must have seen some growth.

Yeah. So AMN had just gone public when I got there.

We should explain what kind of company it is.

AMN Healthcare is the nation's largest healthcare staffing company. And that's actually why, even though I'm an angel investor and also an entrepreneur, I'm also a healthcare analyst. So I work with sia and I'm the covering research analyst for the entire healthcare staffing industry now. So I do all their benchmarking studies, I write monthly articles and I get to talk with all the business owners. It's super fun for me because it's kind of where I advanced my career. But AMN Healthcare is publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange and it's the nation's largest provider of healthcare workforce solutions.

Okay. And headquartered here in San Diego.

They have dual headquarters now in Dallas and San Diego.

Okay, got it. But still, when you got here, this was the hub.

Yes. They had just gone public. They actually were located in six different office buildings in Carmel Valley. And so I had to drive between the office buildings to go to different meetings.

But it was a fun time.

So what did I mean, over 14 years, what did that growth look like?

The gosh, I don't remember what they were at. They were in the hundreds of millions when I got there. And then by the time I left, they were I think at one point to 1.3 billion. And then today they're probably, if not already at a couple billion. They're getting there.

Actually.

They just acquired a company for over $400 million. So they're going to be there.

Wow, we're going to get candid here. Are you still a stockholder in amn?

Oh, no, no, no. It's not because I don't believe in.

The company and it's not because I don't like the company.

It's because I look at strategy from an individual risk mitigation perspective. For me, it made sense for me to take my money off the table. And that's one of the reasons why I was able to become an angel investor was because I did nicely there.

Okay, so you're there 14 years. What, what made you want to leave?

It was, you know, I have this saying, it's kind of sometimes to grow, you have to go. And, and also the year before I left, I paid my house off.

And like, weirdly, when you pay off your house, it kind of changes your.

Your feelings sometimes and it makes you feel like, oh, maybe I can, you know, have more, you know, freedom to pursue other, you know, opportunities and just the freedom to take a look at other things.

So did you leave having something in mind or you said, I'm gonna leave first and then figure it out.

I just left.

Really? That's gotta be a really freeing feeling, but also like jumping off a cliff.

Yeah, I mean, I had a date in mind because I knew when my like, next large stock vesting was gonna happen and I knew when bonuses were gonna get paid out. And it was a good transition. I mean, I, you know, I have a very good relationship with them, always have. And we sort of pre planned it and so it was not done in any kind of disruptive way. And so I think it's nice when we're able to do that.

So what did you do right away.

After, after that I had become an angel investor. I was probably on my fourth or fifth investment. So I started investing in 2015. And after I made my first investment, I thought. And it was because I didn't even know about angel investing.

Actually, I didn't know about being an entrepreneur.

I didn't know about angel investing. And a really good friend of mine suggested that I invest in a company that he was going to go be the CFO at. So I did it. And then I thought, gosh, maybe I could keep doing this. But if I'm going to do this, this is the riskiest asset class that you could possibly be a part of. And so maybe I need to be more methodical about this, do some learning around it. So I decided to start going to events, start learning, start talking to other angels. And so I kind of networked into that and I learned a lot from a lot of people. So I did that. And probably the fourth or fifth investment that I made was in a company called Delta Nutrissentials. And it's a vitamin supplement product called Essential82. I actually take it every single day because I have ALDH2 deficiency. And this product helps to protect our liver because people like me who have this genetic mutation, we have higher rates of liver cirrhosis in the long term by three times, esophageal cancer by two times, osteoporosis by two times, and Alzheimer's by one and a half times. So it's something to consider protecting your liver around. And the way you know you have it is if you're East Asian, 40% of us have it. If you turn red when you drink alcohol, you might have ALDH2 deficiency. And I have the single mutation variety. So that's why I can have an occasional beer. But like, don't drink too much.

If you have the double mutation, I.

Highly recommend you don't drink. Okay.

So it's okay. We're having, we're having craft beer while we're talking.

Yeah. Because I take this like every day, so I'll be fine. But it's, you know, I started, I became an investor in that company. They asked me to join the management team. I was happy to do so. I'm still part of the company today. We're still growing the company. We are looking to launch into Chinese speaking countries later this year.

So.

And we'll do it. It's all through E Commerc. So that's what I've been working on since I left amn. But at some point I also decided to do some other types of work too. So that's why I'm the healthcare analyst at sia.

Yeah, we jive on a few different areas there. Staffing.

Right.

We love the convergence of tech and staffing.

Absolutely.

I know we've talked about Trusted Health.

Right.

We both have some friends there.

Yep.

We do.

Nurse staffing. Tech company, if you want to call it that. Hired for nursing is how I know it's.

Yep.

Because it's like a whole bunch of my former colleagues that hired are all there.

Yeah. I mean, it's an $18 billion industry, so it's. It's very. I'm. I'm still totally into it.

Okay, so let's dive a little bit deeper into the angel investing side. The first deal that you did, you said it was just kind of a colleague at.

It was. But that. So I have so many lessons learned to teach people, because the first investment I ever made was a complete disaster. Okay, so there's a difference between a failure and a disaster. A failure, you just lose your money. A disaster is when the company that you invest in, it turns out that the CEO or the founder is a con artist and embezzles the money from the company. But then when you figure that. Oh, and then, like, asks you to be a board member, not because they need your business acumen, but because they just want to get closer to you so that they can try to get you to put more money in the company. And so. So, okay. I was an auditor when I first started out my career, and I'm like, something doesn't seem right and there's like a disconnect. Right? So I, like, wanted to start looking into things. And, you know, the cfo, one day, he's like, amy, I think there's been embezzlement. And I was like, all right, let's check this out. And, you know, I think that. Well, I know there was embezzlement and many, many instances of it. And so the board decided we need to remove this person as the CEO. Can't have a CEO that's like stealing money from the company. So we did that, and then he and turned around and decided to sue all of the board members and the investors. Not all of the investors that. The two that were board members. So he turned around, sued all of us personally, even though it's an llc. And so then I had to defend myself personally in a lawsuit, and that took three years to resolve. So today we have a default judgment against this person for a lot. I have no idea how we're going to collect it, but that was a three year long road. So when you lose your capital contribution and you have to pay a ton of attorney's fees on top of that to defend yourself, and then through a miracle, you actually get a default judgment against the person. I mean, it was just. It was a crazy time, and I'm glad that that part of it is over. Weirdly, I decided to keep investing.

You kept going?

Yeah. Because if you believe in angel investing, it's kind of hard to not do it right and so, as of today, I've made small investments in 34 different companies. So I've grown my portfolio. And one of my lessons learned, and this is what I tell all new angel investors, is don't invest a lot at the beginning. Really take your time and get to know the companies and don't be in a hurry to invest. And when you do it, try to write smaller checks in the beginning and try to diversify. And that's probably why I'm in 34 companies now, right? Because that was my. I realized this is so risky that you really need to diversify as a strategy and so start out slow. Most angel investors look at 30 or 40 deals before they pick one and write a check. I think a great way is to. You could join an angel network to really learn a lot. So you can join, for example, Techcoast Angels. They have a fund, you can put a little bit of money in the fund every year. I think that's a great way to get started because then you watch how the fund decides to invest. How do they do due diligence? You get to go to the meetings, you get to watch the company's pitch, you get to give your input, but you hear everybody else's questions and what they ask. You see the documents that they're looking at. And so I think it's a great way to learn about the due diligence process for a person.

But you didn't do that. You went all on your own, probably did most of your deals until you joined NHL.

I don't know if I can cuss, right?

But I was being a dumb. You know what? So I was being a dumbass, right?

And part of the reason why I didn't join TCA immediately, which I probably should have, was that I kept telling myself, I'm gonna stop, right? So when I got to 10 companies, because I was being risk averse and I thought, at 10 companies, I'm like, okay, that's enough, I'm gonna stop. But I kept meeting these compelling founders that I really liked who were doing really interesting things. And so then at 15, I'm like, no, really, I'm gonna stop. And then at 25, it's like, no.

Really, I'm gonna stop.

But today I'm seriously taking a break.

So don't ever come pitch.

Exactly. I'm seriously taking a break. But you know that it's just, it's been awesome meeting all of these founders, but I probably should have.

And you know, I was already in some angel networks.

I'd been In Koretsu Farm for a while. I'm still a member of Wharton Angels. I was with Hera Angels, so it's not as though I didn't join any networks. And I also had already met some folks in tca. They were like super helpful in terms of like mentoring me and meeting with me and like just kind of helping me.

Yeah. So some of those angel networks obviously come with a lot of deal flow. Did that help with you or were you finding your own deal flow? Just being out there and you bring them to these groups.

So weirdly, not a lot of my portfolio overlaps with the TCA portfolio or even the companies that have pitched tca. I think it's because some of the investments that I've made were pretty early stage, maybe a little bit like earlier revenue traction than TCA might want to see before they put a company in front of everybody to pitch. And so there's actually not a ton of overlap. And so me putting a little bit of money in the fund actually is a further diversification for me because there's no overlap. So TCA is investing in things that I normally wouldn't look at. And that's because, for example, I rarely invest in therapeutics. I have, you know, I don't have the background to really understand and dive into therapeutics. I'm not a scientist. Anything that has to do with chip technology, I don't really understand that space. So, you know, I tend not to look at those things. But you know what, TCA does have some experts in its angel network and so, you know, they do have a way to do some due diligence there.

Sure. And I'm not even going to ask if we can announce this, but we got our first exit already in fund 19.

That's awesome.

Which is pretty cool. We started fund 19 November, December 2018. I think our very first investment that the fund put money in, which was a Phoenix based company, just got acquired yesterday and I think it was a 1.8x.

That's pretty good for a one year return, right?

Yeah.

Because the other thing I realized is I shouldn't be calculating roi. I should be calculating IRR and taking.

Into account the value of time.

Yeah, but that's okay. You came in in year 20 and we're going to have the same thing a year from now too.

Yeah, well, so Neil and I have this thing because. So he and I actually have co invested in some overlap in some companies in our portfolio.

Five or six.

Yeah, I think we have at least five.

I highlighted. Let's Talk through it on my spreadsheet.

Yeah, we joke that we are the pre TCA team. Kind of some of our investments. What do we make a hashtag out of our name?

It was Precede Yoda.

Precedyoda.

Have some foresight.

Uh huh. Not Baby Yoda, just pre seed Yoda. Our first one we did together was a fund, actually it was the Canopy fund.

That's right.

Where we invested what, two and a half years ago maybe.

Yes.

In a cannabis adjacent or cannabis growth adjacent accelerator.

It was Cannabis Tech.

Cannabis Tech.

Remember their whole thesis was that you should invest in the axes and picks of the gold rush and not in the gold itself. Right. And I do believe in that thesis because the business models that they were investing in, these are business models that.

Have worked out very well in other industries.

It's just that they hadn't started yet in cannabis because the big players that ideally should be doing it are very risk averse. And there was at the time and still is federal legislation against recreational marijuana.

Nobody wants to get in trouble. So it was these small niche players.

And startups that were building out these platforms which we know work in an industry because we see it everywhere.

Yeah. So we got in, I think early into the cannabis scene, maybe too early because it wasn't legal in California yet. These companies are still, some of them are still growing. And you invested personally into a few of them. A few of those companies, it looks like.

No, actually the other two that I have are not.

Oh, they weren't in Canopy.

No, they weren't in the Canopy. They were not in the Canopy fund. Of the two, my favorite one is CB Therapeutics.

They are, they've actually transitioned into being.

A biotech in Carlsbad. And so they're developing all sorts of cannabinoids that are based on biosynthesis. It turns out cbd, the prices have plunged so much that that's actually not where the money's at anymore. And there's these specialty cannabinoids that could be very helpful. And then there's some other areas that they're going into as well. Got it.

I remember seeing them at Quick Pitch. Right, they were in Quick Pitch.

Yeah.

So the way I met Cher, the.

Founder CEO was I met them before Quick Pitch. It was the start our demo day in ucsd.

That's where I initially met him.

And it turns out I was the third investor in their company.

Really?

I didn't know that someone was like.

Whoa, Amy, that's bold. And I was like, that's cool. I didn't know. I was being bold.

I just.

Yeah, I just.

I got to know him over time. You know, I have coffee with him.

He's just, I think, a pretty great guy and very coachable. And so I've been watching him, you know, kind of progress the company. They have a great team.

Awesome. Next one on your list here. And, Amy, this spreadsheet's incredible. We will. I'm ashamed to show you mine, but. Concert Health.

Yes.

Spencer Hutchins.

Yes.

We love Spencer.

Yes, we do.

We haven't had him on the podcast yet. We need to kind of a staffing play, which is a little tractor, I.

Think, that is fractional placement of behavioral health.

It helps them to, in a very turnkey way, utilize the billing codes that exist now to help with care coordination. Also, behavioral health services is sorely needed in our patient population, and so he's figured out a way to provide that in a very turnkey way. And I think the reason why you and I sort of believe in that model is because, you know, we come from the staffing world. And so, you know, I mean, I came from healthcare staffing, so I know that there's a place for this kind of business model to work. And not only that, it has a billing code, so that's why Medicare is paying. Yeah. And of course, I think we always look at the founder first.

Right.

And whether we think that that person can carry the business the whole way and really grow it and be on top of it. So I think that's the other reason. But I think you and I are fans of that industry.

Yeah, absolutely. A few other. We share Backstage Studio. I mean, it's hard not to love Arlen and her mission, but then on top of that, the things she's done, 100 investments she made in a really short period of time, surrounded herself with some amazing advisors.

Yeah.

Arlan has focused. We invested in Backstage Studios, which is the shared services component that supports all of the companies in the portfolio. But what Arlen's done is incredible because she really targeted the underserved community of founders who maybe don't get as much visibility, and she's helping them to get that visibility while also helping them to grow their businesses. That was just, I think, an interesting thing to support.

Absolutely. Trials AI. We just had Kim on the podcast. We love what they're doing, too.

Absolutely.

Kim is the perfect example of that founder who lies awake at night and can't sleep because she can't drive. What she's doing forward fast enough because she lost a friend to cancer. She's so mission driven. But that's kind of what I love about the founders, especially in healthcare. Every one of those founders has an amazing story about why they care so much about helping the healthcare system and doing something better. You ask each of them about their personal story and they all have a really, really interesting, you know, story where you're like, ah, I get the passion.

Yep. And the last one is the recent ACE TCA fund.

So I was guessing that you also invested in that.

I did, yeah. I'm excited about that and I'm bringing a company through right now. We'll see.

I was wondering if your T shirt.

Was part of their I'm representing upcycle right now. And by the time this recording's out, hopefully the fund did the right thing and invested the money that we want to raise from tca. I'm personally investing in the company.

So.

I'm excited about them. Look, you have a lot of data. You've got a lot of companies. What do you do with all this? What are you looking for in terms of do you keep track of. You ask them and put in here, how's revenue going quarter by quarter? Or what do you do with the data you get from your founders?

One thing that I noticed is because I've only had two positive outcomes so far. But hey, I'm happy because I've only been doing this since 2015, and to even have a couple of positive outcomes feels kind of good. What I did was I took that money and immediately reinvested it in other startups as we learn and grow, that hopefully the reinvestment would improve the overall quality of our portfolio. Because maybe I didn't know what I was doing in the beginning. Although actually I'm trying to think at least two of the investments that came out, they were within my first 10 investments. Maybe I wasn't as lame as I thought. I don't know. I don't ever want to think that I'm not lame.

But what I noticed is a pattern.

Is that sometimes you hope for that company that goes all the way and they get sold. And you make a lot, like many times multiple your money, you hope for that. My first two positive outcomes were kind of like they weren't like a grand slam home run, but what they were were at least a single or a double. And I'll take singles and doubles all day long because at least that's a positive outcome. And this is such a risky thing to do. The thing that I noticed is when they get to a certain number of range of millions of dollars of revenue annually. And if they've been growing very quickly over time, when they get to some millions of dollars, especially if they get close to break even or profitability. But maybe not. Maybe it's just they get to some revenue range, the VCs start to look really hard. In the first case, the VC dogpile happened and I got an offer to buy out my shares. At that point I decided to take it because I wasn't sure that that company had a very strong strategy and intention to get to profitability quickly. And to me, profitability. So I'm a strategy. Profitability matters to me. And I see profitability as being stability for that company. I don't like to invest in companies that plan to be unprofitable for a very, very long time and do successive rounds of financing where the original early stage seed investors get totally diluted, then we're upside down, we have nothing to show for it, but we took all the risk and they're still not profitable. Because one day the time may come where the investors are just like, yeah, we've invested so much money in this that we're just tired of investing. Your pricing model doesn't work because you can't seem to get profitable. I felt like they didn't have a clear path to profitability, so I was happy to take my money off the table. The second example, they skipped the VC route entirely and then went straight to, I'll get to millions of dollars in revenue, I'm going to get to profitability. And then they had a PE firm decide that they wanted to recapitalize the company, but the PE firm wants more than 50% of the. I got an offer to buy out my shares and I really like the company. Like the founder. It's just one of those things where actually this is a weird story. Two days before that, I was like driving around in my car and I was talking to God and I was, hey, hey, God, it'd be so awesome if you could have something exit out of my portfolio. And then I could take the money and I'll join TCA and then I'll put the money back into startup companies. And then two days later, I'm in like Memphis, Tennessee, and I get this email offering to buy my shares back. And I was like, no way.

Are you serious?

Yeah, like that really happened. And so for a minute I did consider maybe I shouldn't take my money off the table. But one of my friends who actually is an atheist said, yeah, but Amy, it just seems to me that you wouldn't want to renegotiate with God. And I was like, you are right.

Yep.

I don't think you. Because I asked for. I had a very specific prayer and it was specifically. And I'm like, I better execute on this specifically. So, yeah, I took the money and I ran and I reinvested in. In some other companies, actually. So then I reinvested. I put a little bit more money into injury because I think they're having a catalyst moment. I invested in Family Proud, which is in healthcare. I invested in Ellie Health. I joined tca. I put money in the fund, and then I invested in Vigilance Risk Solutions, which is a tech enabled security company here run by a team of Navy seals and Secret Service people. Yeah. So that's an awesome team.

Really. We might have change your nickname. It might be precede Jesus now. Well, you've got a direct line for your returns.

Hey, anyone can have a direct line to Jesus if they want to. Right. But I'm cool with precede Yoda because then you and I can share the nickname and have that in common.

All right, that's good because I'm Jewish, so that works. All right, well. Wow, this is incredible. I look forward to adding to your list and my list as we bring companies that we like. We obviously look for similar things in founders that we want to back. But we got to ask you the one last big question on the podcast. What's your favorite taco spot?

My favorite taco spot. So every other Friday, I like to go to Lahaina's in Pacific beach and eat fish tacos and stare at the ocean.

Okay, what's the right order there?

What do you mean the right order?

What's the taco? Do you have a specific taco that you have to get there?

When you go, it's always the fish tacos.

The like. Okay, the fish tacos.

The battered, like, deep fried fish tacos.

Got it.

It's always that on corn tortillas.

Okay. See, I knew there was like.

Yeah.

Oh, were you gonna ask me about the founders being female and people of color?

Yes, let's do that. Cause you keep track of that, which is awesome.

Yeah.

So I didn't. When I started angel investing, I wasn't trying to go out of my way to invest in companies with a CEO that was either female or a person of color. Because, you know, I have to. I mean, I don't want to lose all my money. I have to care about the returns. I certainly care about the returns. Somehow, some way over Time, and I was tracking my portfolio, I realized that 50% of the companies that I've invested in have a CEO who's either female or a person of color. When people say, hey, I can't find diverse founders, or I can't find good companies to invest in with diverse founders, I would counter and say, I call BS on that, because I really believe that they're everywhere. And I sat through a talk that AD Astra had, which is a local accelerator here in town, where they were talking about unconscious bias. And I don't know if I have an unconscious bias or not. What I did learn from it, though, was that there's two kinds of questions you can ask. You can either ask prevention questions, or you can ask promotion questions. And I'll never not ask prevention questions, which are the, like, you know, the things that help you to understand the investment and de risk it mentally. But what I did realize is I need to ask more of the promotion questions of everybody. Because when you ask the promotion questions, that's when you get to see the founder's bigger vision for the future. And that's where I maybe I realized.

Oh, I should do more of that.

That's great.

Great.

That's really good, actually. Thesis and advice for all of us early angel investors to get better at that. Ask the right questions, but also look at your portfolio and see if you've got a bias or not. We all have something.

Yeah.

So in my segmentation spreadsheet, there's the name of the company. When I invested, I track the annualized revenue as of the last month or quarter. And then I also, for the exit, I track the irr, and I also track the amount invested, what sector, what industries, what sectors. And so I don't know. I guess I'm an analyst strategist at heart.

That's great.

Yeah.

I love segmentation.

We should have you share this within tca, because I'm curious what other people are doing, and maybe we can learn from each other a little bit more.

And then I have labels, right? Like, too soon to tell. Folded, Positive exit, Likely. Positive exit, stable. I have a lot of stables. I'm glad. Anytime a company is stable, that's good.

Absolutely. Okay. This is great. Well, Amy, we're gonna have you on again to talk about the continuation of your portfolio later in the year to see if you really did stop investing.

Okay.

Because there's so many great founders that we just have to back.

Yes.

Well, Amy, thanks so much for being on. Thanks for coming. We'll have you again soon.

Thank you. That was awesome. Awesome.

Thanks for joining us on the Tacos and Tech Podcast with Neil Bloom. Thanks again to Cox Business for helping make this possible by expanding the reach of the San Diego tech ecosystem. Big shout out to School of Rap for our rad intro music. And thanks as well to Nest Podcast Network where we are recording live inside their studio at Nest Co working in Bankers Hill. You can find Neil Bloom on Twitter Eelbloom as well as Fresh brewed Tech and Tacos and Tech Pod on Twitter too.

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