Dan Engel and Dan Hedden of Santa Barbara Venture Partners: Making Genuine Investment Partnerships

Startups get the party Startups get the party started. Startups get the party. Startups get the party started. You want tech and tacos tacos and tech you know we got tacos and tech is on smash border green guacamole keeper captains counting beans Contador quentan frijoles found us trying to raise some queso la vida San Diego school of rappy rapping fire tortillas round jalapenos in these modern times a crappy my coding yoga posse fold the body origami we be surfing coronado eating tacos El gordo the taco stand in puesto lucha libre and sombrero Got a shout out to cost angels by the ocean watch the sunset la Jolla shores Entrepreneurs trying to get funded When San Diego Startup Week is popping in the summer Oceanside the Tijuana Estee be full of hustlers from couch surfing to penthouses right on the beach Tech leaders believe stars are within reach we interview and founders who be shooting for the Moon SD TechOS with your host, Neil Bloom. Startups get the party Startups get the party started.

Welcome to the Tacos and Tech Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Bloom, and I am thrilled to have you here on the Tacos and Tech Podcast. We interview builders of technologies, of companies, of communities, and we do it weekly. So thanks for tuning in. Every Tuesday, a new interview and on Fridays we talk about what's new in the San Diego tech ecosystem from a news perspective. So make sure you join us there as well too. We also have a tech newsletter that comes out every other week@freshbroodtech.com you can subscribe to listen to it without further ado. Enjoy this episode and welcome back to the Tacos and Tech Podcast. I am your host, Neil Blum, and I am really, really thrilled to have on the team from Santa Barbara Venture Partners, Dan Engel, managing partner and founder, and Dan Hedden, associate with the team. Hey guys, thanks for joining on.

Thanks for having us. We always enjoy talking to you.

Likewise. It's been fun getting to know you over the last few years, spending some time together in Santa Barbara. It's time to get you down to San Diego sometime soon, physically. Maybe do a little startup train journey where we jump on the train and do startup pitches from Santa Barbara, San Diego and vice versa. Kind of fun, but we have some similar ethos in community building and community investing and domain expert investing that I'm really excited for us to chat about. So Dan Angle, you want to kick us off and tell us a Bit more about what Santa Barbara Venture Partners is all about.

Yeah, sure, I'd love to. So Santa Barbara Venture Partners started kind of in the midst of the pandemic peak in summer of 2020. And I had been working for a few different venture funds and doing a lot of my own angel investing. And I was having a lot of success doing that over the years. And beforehand I had built various software companies as a kind of a serial entrepreneur. Companies like GoToMeeting in Santa Barbara, which was go to my PC before Picasa in the LA Santa Barbara area as well, that became Google Photos. And then I built fastspring which is like a smaller version of Stripe. Works with about 4,000 software companies here in Santa Barbara, which we started from scratch and bootstrapped and we ended up selling for over 100 million to Excel KKR. So I sort of had all that experience building software companies and then investing myself in software companies. And then I decided with, you know, things a little slow around the isolation of the pandemic, I would take things to the next level and open it up to other investors. And so today, you know, we have 75 plus folks who are involved as investors in the fund or funds because we have a second one now. And what we do is we invest in later stage recurring revenue, generally software and subscription based businesses that are still growing, generally 2 to 5x a year. So they're still going really fast even though they have millions in revenue. So we're kind of avoiding, we generally avoid the earlier stage companies that have a decent chance of becoming dropping significantly in value or totally so that we don't have to offset those kind of losses by, you know, hoping for some 500x. We don't want to be dependent on that. We can be really successful with, you know, 3 to 6x and 2 to 5 year time frames for our investments. So that's really what we focus on. And we just don't think it's worth it to do the early stage risk taking because the price isn't that much higher when you're coming in and the company's already got millions in recurring revenue, which is relatively reliable.

Makes sense. Which is why we work together pretty well since we're willing to do the early stage risk part, roll up our sleeves a little bit at pre revenue and believe in the team and then watch the team, you know, run through some walls, make some pivots and hand them over to you for some later stage capital. So very excited about that and continued collaboration. You kind of spoke a little about your Background. I'd love to hear some of the early days, especially what the tech scene was like when you were doing GoToMeeting and GoToMyPC. Like what was there a tech community at that time in Santa Barbara?

Yeah. So my role there was I produced a lot of the revenue. I didn't start the company. They had already been around a couple years and had a approach that hadn't worked. And so we tried something different and it eventually did work. But yeah, I mean today Santa Barbara has over 400 tech companies. And back then, so now we're talking like 2003, there were a lot of tech companies because of kind of the.com period. I don't know if there were quite 400. There certainly weren't as many software companies. Most of them were kind of.com firms. But yeah, the town was already kind of getting some making some noise. There were some really interesting companies that were here, some of which did pretty well, like Commission Junction, that became a big part of Internet affiliate and some others. And historically Santa Barbara didn't have that. If you go back 25 plus years, I think there's a lot of aerospace and defense and telecommunications then, but not so much kind of Internet software and tech, this type of tech. So fortunately that has very much evolved and people out there have really little idea of how much tech action and entrepreneurship is in Santa Barbara, despite the fact that we're not a big city.

Yeah. And I think what speaks to a bit of that though is that there's some companies that have had success that people have stayed and worked on the next thing. Right. So I think gotomeeting or log me in had a number of people who are still in the tech community doing other companies. Right. John Grady and others who.

So originally it was called Expert City. And so we call it like the Expert City Mafia, you know, wannabe for PayPal mafia. But we've actually created a lot of really valuable companies that have employed a lot of people around here and made it so people can stay in town. That's part of what the community is today, is kind of the results of so many companies 10, 15 years ago that were built up successfully and then got acquired, stayed local with whoever acquired them. And then a lot of the people left eventually, not just the founders, but the employees, and seeded their own companies, oftentimes with capital from, from the original investors and founders of those companies that had the original success. So it's a process.

It sounds like part of that ethos was to once you had success, whatever that means, whether that's financial or just obtainment of new knowledge to know how to build it. Again, a lot of people went and built more like you. You went and built some more companies, but you also were starting to learn to invest. Were there people coaching, training, saying, hey, here's how to start angel investing, or how did that part of the community start learning how to recycle capital?

You know, I'd say Santa Barbara is a town where you have a decent amount of kind of tech and investment, education and collaboration. There's a lot of people here who want other people to succeed because we want Santa Barbara to be bigger and bigger spot on the map and be a place that more and more people, including our kids, eventually could settle. Right. And so I think there are a lot of like, you've been to some of the events locally, you've put on some as well. There's just a lot of that on a regular basis. So if you want to really jump in about how to do this, both from the investment and the entrepreneurship side, I just think there's a lot of opportunities here to do that. And obviously there's a lot of entrepreneurs and investors.

Absolutely, yeah. Dan Headen, like, when did you, when did the tech community come up on your radar and how did you know that you wanted to be a part of it?

Yeah, good question. I was actually surprised. So I'm from Santa Barbara, born in the 90s and kind of speaking to what you're talking about before is when I was growing up, it was mainly defense, aerospace, maybe some legal services, accounting. And there were some tech companies that I knew of, but not really. And then fast forward a couple, a few decades, we have the AppFolio Procore is going public, Yardi Appeal Sciences, Umbralabs. And when I got done with my undergrad at Cal Poly, I was surprised to see how many jobs were available for folks that wanted to get into tech. And I had a lot of friends who were loving the problems they were solving. They're making good money and they were living in Santa Barbara and had that lifestyle that I was used to growing up with. So I wanted to get back involved in. And so I interviewed with some of the companies I named and I ended up choosing a logic monitor where another big company in town. Now they have a huge presence across the country in Texas and New York. And during that time they got acquired by Vista Equity Partners, another acquisition locally, which is a great milestone and I'm very fond of those days. Those are the early days of crash course sales. And I look back on that. And a lot of that plays into what we're doing here today at Santa Barbara Venture Partners.

That was great. Yeah. The Vista exit is both great and bittersweet, as we've seen in a lot of communities where financially great and then sometimes move the team out. Right out in Texas, but luckily in Southern California, the talent doesn't move. Right. So the talent's like, I'll find another thing because I ain't leaving Santa Barbara or San Diego, which I think is what's benefited a lot. Right. The talent is there and ready to do the next thing. Then angle when you've built and sold a few companies so you knew you were a serial entrepreneur, wanted to build the next thing, what was it in your mind that said, I'm ready to go full time investor? Because that's a big change up after serially starting companies?

Well, to be honest, like I was alluding to before, it was kind of the pandemic. You know, I was working just a couple days a week for other VCs, helping find deals and work on investments and stuff like that. And when we all got sort of stuck at home, it's like, all right, this isn't going to work. Need more stimulation. I'm not that old. I don't want to be semi retired. And so I just decided to take it to the next level. And I went back and looked at my results to see what kind of of IRR had generated because it seemed like things had gone really well. But as an individual investor, I hadn't really like gone back and done all the, you know, compilations and what. And it came out to something like 60% a year over about an eight year period when I looked as the IRR. And so I thought that's a pretty good track record I can run on. So, so I did got it.

So what was that? Was it a pretty easy conversation going back to prior investors who maybe backed your companies and said, hey, now I'm going all in on a fund or who would you approach first about these ideas?

Well, so fast sp we built up with just 30 grand, so there were no investors until we sold it. But in terms of who I went to, what's interesting, it kind of evolved. So I started going to people that I knew that I had worked with over the years. And what I noticed is a lot of them like me were in customer acquisition and marketing, demand generation, growth, hacking, that kind of thing. And so I started to notice, well, wait a minute, we're starting to get a bit of an expertise here that Our investors. I've got one who's an expert in brands. I've got one that expert in SEO. I've got one that's an expert in influencer marketing. I've got one that's an expert in strategic. And so we were able to kind of create this differentiation relative to other funds in that we're able to help portfolio companies with customer acquisition and marketing, something that is not an area of assistance generally for most any other VC fund, big or small. And so that became kind of the reason why we were able to find the kind of deals that we did and now have the success with fund that we have because of that differentiator and advantage and the fact that a lot of times CEOs and boards just want to find a way to get us onto their cap table so that we start helping them. Because who doesn't need help growing their revenue faster?

It's totally true. I think it's often talked about in the very early stages how much companies need. But it's throughout the entire life cycle, every day the founding team is learning something new and could really rely on domain expertise or people who've been there, done that before.

Yeah. And some of it is, you know, guidance and whatnot. Some of it is referring our companies to service providers. Okay, it's time for you to do PR for your fundraise. Well, here's someone I've worked with for 20 years. They're reasonably priced, like you can count on it. You don't have to go spend your time doing due diligence and find other firms. And then, you know, half the time it doesn't work. I worked with a lot of different solutions over the years and so I kind of bring that to the portfolio company so they can benefit from my couple decades of marketing the heck out of software products.

Totally Dan hidden. What attracted you to jump to the investor side after working at some startups?

Yeah, yeah, I think that came through. So after, after Logic Wander, I had the opportunity to go back to grad school where I was interested, being in sales, intrigued by how we, you know, customer segmentation, coming up with quotas, coming up with commissions, revenue, operations. I wanted to get more of a finance background. And so I speaking of Santa Barbara, one thing that is we have going here is UC Santa Barbara and the whole technology management program. I mean Appeal Sciences, many companies have come out of that that have been a success. So I was really attracted to that program and I wanted to go back because I knew that would get me into maybe a startup or into a career that would be meaningful. And through that graduate degree, I met John Greathouse, who I know that, you know, we've talked about already. And I didn't know that John and Dan had worked together during, what was it? Gotomeeting. Yeah. And he was looking out, introducing me to folks, and he's like, hey, my friend Dan has a. He just launched Sandal Bar Venture Partners and he's looking for someone to maybe help him with some sourcing. And I hadn't considered investing, and I knew of Dan indirectly. And I started reading about Dan, I was like, oh my goodness, this seems like a great opportunity if it works out. And I think we had a trial run at the beginning. He was trying me out, seeing what could happen, and I loved every moment of it. Dan's been a great, great coach. Mentored me, answering questions, slowing things down, putting in perspective. And I kind of fell in love with the space and what we're doing. And it's really nice. We. I think we're aligned on, you know, some of my backgrounds in environmental sustainability. And Dan likes kind of the impact focus. So it's been fun aligning on thesis is there and also more of a value investor coming in late, predictable revenue, which has been really fun to learn about. So I'd say I'm still early days. I think I'm loving this space. It's been great to have someone like Dan to work with.

It's great. And having the dance together, also great.

That's right. So we can confuse people. And thanks to Dan being part of what we're doing, we were able to complete our 10th acquisition, our 10th investment in the fund. We did it all in 19 months. We certainly did not anticipate that, but we had the deal flow and we were able to see over, you know, 1500 companies over that time period. And we're fortunate that we were able to find these needles in the haystack over that period of time.

That's great. I know there isn't a specific geographic focus, but there's a network bias in all of our networks in that we've built and worked in Southern California. Do you find you're doing more Southern California deals just because you're meeting so many other local VCs or where is how is like sourcing and the focus?

So we did one Santa Barbara deal out of 10 in the first fund. We did one in Ventura, so two in the area. I'd say maybe three are in different parts of California, and then the rest are other places, Minnesota, Washington, D.C. georgia. And we prefer to make investments in places where everybody's not paying as much attention and driving up prices and we don't have as much competition with big funds and stuff like that. And we're actually looking at a deal right now in Israel through some partners that we work with. But we work with over 100 different VC firms on the deal flow side. And what we do is we try to bring them the kind of deals they're looking for, and they often will collaborate with us as well. And we prioritize the firms that are the most collaborative. And so we get a lot of our deal flow by talking to 100 different VC firms ongoingly about what they're seeing, what we're seeing. So that's one of the many ways that we find deals. Sometimes they get referred by our existing portfolio companies. Sometimes it kind of comes in cold, Sometimes it's from research we do. Like, we'll go through, you know, the Inc 5000. There's a lot of companies on there, or Crunchbase or, you know, who are the top 10 software companies to watch in Oklahoma City. You know, we'll look for those kind of things so that we really get everybody on our radar and find those gems.

Yeah, I know. Just my own relationship with Dan Hedden, like, it's very collaborative and talking and sharing companies very freely. I think the VC to VC relationships interesting around sharing deal flow, especially if we're up or downstream of each other. But then there's also the. Sometimes for firms that are trying to get into the same deals at the same time, there's also that part too. And I think you guys handle it really well in terms of being collaborative with many of.

Thanks. Yeah, we think that's a big part of it. I don't really understand that much about how possessive some investors are. But, you know, sharing is caring. And the more we help others, the more they seem to want to help us. And we can't cover everything all over the country and ultimately the world, so we have to rely on the number of deals other people are doing too. Not just 1000 plus that we look at.

Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. And to add to that a little bit, I think, you know, Dan spoke of the marketing customer acquisition differentiation, but I think at times we're not seen as competitive. We're typically writing checks in the 1 to 2 million dollars range. And we can fill out rounds, whether it's a primary round, Series A to Series D, but also on the secondary side, I think folks look to us to come in and purchase secondary from Founders or take some angels off the table, which can provide flexibility and not seen as, as competitive to some firms that are leading it.

Yeah, not seen as competitive, not really a threat. You know, a lot of times the Companies are writing 10, 15, 20 million dollar checks are just one or two, like Dan's saying. But also when they take our money, they know they're going to get help for their portfolio company and marketing for years to come. And they generally not want and often need that. So there's a lot of benefit to them involving us relative to other options they have or keeping themselves.

And I think the secondary part, especially in communities that maybe don't have as much local capital, so outside the big three cities, offering secondaries is kind of new and almost refreshing to the founders that they didn't even know to ask for it. So I'm guessing you're coming in and offering, you know, a release valve to founders who probably didn't even know to ask for it from their deal lead, potentially, which is also helpful to get into deals too.

Sometimes for us it's a great thing because, you know, normally a venture capital firm, they come into a company that they might be interested in and they say, hey, are you raising money? And then the company says no, and that's the end of it. Or maybe, you know, they follow up in six months and see for us, when the answer is no, it's like, okay, you're not raising money, I get it. You don't need working capital. How about some of your shares or some of the other founder shares or some legacy investors or someone you want to get rid of? What about their shares? We'll look at that too. And often that opens the door right back up for us.

Yep. And I think you have told me a story. I'm putting you on the spot here about Scott at classy Scott Chisholm, where that kind of conversation happened, right? Where over time, continuous conversation to see when you're ready to join, to let some of our venture partners.

Scott is great. He was busy. He just wasn't the most responsive. So it was through our unrelenting persistence that we got that deal. And that frankly, we get a lot of our deals. Sometimes the CEOs or entrepreneurs are just like, you know what? You know, we're all set. We've got all the investment we need or we've got all the investors we want. But you guys are just so damn persistent. Like, we got to get you involved here. We know you give a damn. So it's worked to our favor being Kind of relentless in pursuit of deals we're interested in.

Absolutely. And shout out to Scott, who's been a multi time podcast interviewee and I know listener. So we love seeing that happen. That company eventually got acquired classy by GoFundMe, two big nonprofit tech powerhouses. Have you seen other Successes already within 19 month deployment cycle like that, you know, you said you deployed within 19 months to already have some acquisitions there is pretty great. Do you have some other successes that you can show or speak to?

Yeah. So Classy got acquired maybe eight or nine months after we made our investment. So we're very fortunate with the timing. And GoFundMe paid the equivalent of around two times what we paid just nine months before. Hopefully we can do that with all the other investments as well. In nine months. No, but we've had a lot of success in that. I mean, Dan was kind of alluding it to it before that we kind of were seen as kind of somewhat value investors in SaaS, which is a little bit of an oxymoron. We end up getting really reasonable prices in the deals that we come into partly because we just sort of we time it right. We come in between an old round gets opened up again or you know, like I said, the CEO finds a way because they want help. And so what happens then is thereafter they do a round that's maybe a little bit more at market price and we benefit from that. And so the results of that is, you know, we've got a fund of 10 investments, but over a holding period of, I think it's about 14 months now for our average holding period, we've generated a fund level return on paper of an estimate is a 60% increase in value, which, you know, generally 13 months, 14 months after holding investments, nothing happens. And it's really hard to get the entire fund to grow that much. It means, you know, you have to somehow offset the ones that haven't raised additional capital or done transactions after your transaction so they don't get revalued. And we've been able to do that by so many of our companies within six to 12 months after we invested, taking in new money at often twice or more the price that we paid.

That's great. Dan Headen, what are, how early do you want to meet companies? Like, I think it'd be interesting to just our listeners to know when's the right time to meet you.

Yeah, it's a great question. I think for us it's across the board. I think with certain founders we'd love to Meet them, you know, right when they're getting going, right when they have a product to market. I mean, ideally if we meet them, the timing would be, you know, they have several million in revenue and they're looking to raise a series A series B that we can talk to. But I think over the last two years it's been nice getting to know founders when they have raised a little, maybe a pre seed, a seed round, we get an idea, we build some rapport and then we can just have an ongoing conversation over a year, two years so that they know, you know, who we are, what we do, what we bring to the table and then we'll be ready to really give it a good look when it comes to the place that we like to enter. But I prefer earlier conversations and getting to know people just so we have that context in place.

That's great.

Yeah. And I think part of why, you know, we do it at the stage we do when it comes to these recurring revenue businesses, it's because you can really minimize the risk to the future of the business if you wait until the point in time. Not just that there's millions in revenue, but that there's been a multi year track record of retention of customers. So you know, we're looking for industry leading statistics or metrics around lack of churn, net revenue retention, nps, you know, satisfaction in customers. So we're not looking for deals where customer satisfaction shows up at, you know, 40 out of 100 or 4 out of 10, but more like 7, 8, 9. That's where we get excited. And we're not looking for logo retention of 78% or 85% year over year, it's more like 95%. And when you see that kind of a business and it's been doing it long enough, that's a business that meets our definition of being really hard to screw up. And that's what I built in fastspring. We were able to grow 350% a year for three years in a row during the, I guess what we call the Great Recession. It's because we didn't lose clients, we'd add new clients. And I saw how easy it was, relatively speaking, to grow at hypergrowth rates over years. And so I try to find that in the businesses that Dan and I look at.

Are you doing some real deep level data tracking of companies who may be too early, but you get continued investor updates and you're like tracking actual, your own data and trends, lines of them, or is it really just keeping in touch and seeing the progress that they're reporting back to you each time you talk to them. Maybe Dan H. For that?

Yeah, absolutely. We definitely, I'd say our conversations are a bit more upfront. Like we like diving into the numbers and getting a sense of just getting a pulse of the health of the business and we then will track that over time. As Dan talked about their metrics, high level metrics that we like seeing. I mean of course revenue growth, year growth, the retention, the satisfaction, what customers are saying and seeing how that tracks over a given period of time is helpful in our eyes. Then we can see the trend. And I think also it's also nice to, you know, to get to know the founders too and see how they're doing, see what their needs are. Maybe we can help along the way. It was kind of a two sided there, but maybe. Dan, do you have anything to add there?

No, I think you got, I think you got it covered pretty well.

Yeah.

So 19 months to deploy fund one and really starting up a bootstrap business, like let's not forget for two people running this business it is a lot. Right. It's wearing every hat as well too. So you being in on both, you know, knowing the startup world helps also on the VC world of just like spinning up an office.

It does. And we really have four people. We have Jennifer and we have Sarah as well. Jennifer's on the finance side and Sarah deals with a lot of administrative and operational issues. So they're very essential. And you know, I didn't know what I was getting into entirely. Right. I mean you learn research but in the end until you do it right. I think you and I talked about this at one point actually just how much administrative work there is and how there are these service providers that make it seem like you can use them and then everything's taken care of. But in reality you really got to check their work. We learned over time, unfortunately, which means, you know, we're doing a lot of reconciling, we're doing a lot of double checking. We're not relying on our service providers entirely even though we had hoped we'd be able to. It's just, there's just too many times when you know, it's our business, not theirs and we find a little something and it justified that we really can't trust anything when we're working with the other people dealing with our clients, numbers and dollars.

I can relate on everything around that for building ours as well too. Sometimes it just takes a human to get things done, not a platform I totally agree with that. So with that, though, and with the running through walls and the headaches of all that, you want to do another fund because you're seeing success in Fund 1 already. How did you know? And when was the right time that you said, this is the right time to go look at?

You know, we got to a place where we were at our last investment in terms of the cash we had to deploy, deploy into fully new investments. And we ran into a company that we found highly compelling called Spin AI, which is kind of the leader in taking cloud based data, backing it up, and then doing monitoring and security for that data. You know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict what the future is going to be like for that kind of a business. And so when we saw that business and got excited about it and dug into the numbers, we said, all right, well, we got to figure out a way to do this. And that meant starting a new fund. And also I had a number of investors that were very happy with the results so far with fund one. And they came to me saying, hey, are you going to do another fund? I'd like to put in a million here, a million there. And so I was responding to that as well. And it was nice that people were so pleased and supportive.

That's great to hear. Well, good luck on fund two. We hope to continue doing more deals or sharing deals around that as well too. You're being in Santa Barbara, great food scene, great taco scene. Do you have a favorite taco? Dan Hedden, Local or where is the. Where is your best taco?

Oh, goodness. Yeah. I would say local. I'd say I would find myself for a combination of reasons at Monies, which is in the funk zone. Did I take your stand?

That's what I was going to say. We should have coordinated. That's great.

The public market's pretty good too. I'm just blanking on their name.

Yeah, Monet's. But for me it's because they have that awesome salsa bar where you get like six or seven options. Like that's pretty unusual, you know, differentiated their meat.

Their El pastor is incredible. I mean, they have the right. They have it all balanced out with the pineapple and the cilantro and whatever else season they put on there. But then in the salsa bar, like what Dan's talking about, there's nothing like it. You get, I think there's like 12 or 13 different types and they're all blended up and it's super easy to consume. You pour on. They all taste like pistachio, avocado. Some unique ones. So if you're ever back in town, we got to go there. Not that far away from test pilot.

Now I know where we're doing our next meeting for sure. Next month. Yep. And Dan, sounds like we've all got agreement here on the best taco place here.

Well, we're fans.

Yeah. Well, I know you guys are right in the heart of downtown Santa Barbara in Jackpocket's office and newer Santa Barbara company, which is great to see companies.

One of our investments.

Love that. And community builders as well, too, with both, you know, CEO and Ted saying let's open our doors. So we love seeing that.

Yes.

Love seeing VCs working alongside companies in person too. So I hope to come work alongside you guys shortly. And thanks for being on the podcast. Appreciate it, guys.

Thank you.

Yeah, thanks, Neil. Enjoyed it.

Cheers, guys. Thanks for tuning in to the Tacos and Tech podcast. You can find all of our episodes on freshbredtech.com as well as on Twitter at Tacos and Tech Pod. Also follow Fresh Brew Tech on all of our social platforms and make sure to share and give a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Google Play. Thanks again.

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