Dawn Barry - President & Co-founder of LunaDNA

Welcome to the Tacos and Tech Podcast where we discover cutting edge technology and the builders making it happen. I'm your host, Neil Blum, San Diego's tech ambassador, and together we're going to uncover what technology San Diegans are creating with our own blend of local lifestyle. This podcast episode is proudly brought to you by our friends at Cox Business, the broadband and cloud services provider to the modern tech company. As a longtime supporter of San Diego Startup Week and the San Diego startup community, Cox also puts on top Tech awards.

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And most recently, quick pitch with San Diego Venture Group and Techcoast Angels. Thanks again to our friends at Cox Business for their support of the community. Welcome to season two of the Tacos and Tech Podcast. I am here with Luna DNA co founder and president Dawn Berry and we're excited to get to know her. Thanks for being on, Don.

Thank you for having me.

Why don't you give us a quick little overview of what Luna DNA is?

Yeah. So we are a health data platform where people permission their health data for the greatest good of research, but also to have the utility of just storing their data. We think that's going to be increasingly important in the future. So by coming to Luna DNA, you have a place to store your data. You will soon have more apps to explore your data a little further, permission it for research, which is going to help reshape research, do research we haven't been able to do before. And what's also really exciting is for the first time, by sharing your data, you have an opportunity to get shares of ownership in Luna DNA. And that's why we refer to the platform as community owned. And we think that's an exciting element of the technology.

Awesome. Really excited to dive into that because that is a wild concept. But why don't you take us back? Where'd you grow up? Where are you from?

I'm from Berlin, Connecticut, which is the geographic center of Connecticut. I am a carpenter's daughter. Grew up in very rural, had lots of gardens and pets and even some farm animals and just really enjoyed nature. Grew up in nature and yeah, that's where my love of biology started.

Oh, really? So carpenter's daughter. But was there science around you growing up? That was the inspiration.

Yeah, we were, you know, we didn't have a lot of money, so we're always building things. And the garden, you know, it was really interesting to have a garden. We had chickens and so we always found very scrappy and interesting ways to get the things that we needed. So, yeah, it was. I just Always had a fascination with nature and biology and this notion that if you take care of it, it'll take care of you back.

Yeah, that's great. So what led you eventually to the genomics world?

Yeah, I went to University of Vermont. I got a biology degree. Again, very steep, steeped in nature up in Vermont they were kind of green before going green was a thing. And I just got a very early interest in genetics. I think because of just the organization of it, that blueprint nature of it and the idea that, wow, if we really knew the blueprint of all living things better, we may be able to be more predictive. It's the ultimate barcode of life. So we could do tracking better, we can do identity better. I just got very interested in the organized nature of genetics, but also the art that happens in the course of developmental biology. So it's kind of fascinating.

Really cool. So with your degree in hand, what was the first job out of college?

First job at a college, I worked for Mike Snyder. At the time he was at the Yale Genome Analysis Center. So I went back to Connecticut and you know, little did I know that he was emerging to become one of the most self quantified people. So he had a deep fascination with his own personal data. Now at Stanford, my job there was, you know, out of college, didn't have a PhD so I was doing a lot of microscope work and doing the lab operations. But it really gave me again a further kind of the application of genomics. So you go from the academic nature of it now to what it could be in an applied fashion and just gave me a good picture of the environment of science. Interesting.

What was the state of the genomic world at that time?

Oh, you're very much in yeast biology. Just, just back to discovering, still discovering genes and how they all work together and again expression and proteins. So this was, Gosh, this was 1996, so not that long ago but still in the early days we would, gosh, microarrays would still be in the future, next gen sequencing very much in the future. So we didn't have the power to do the discovery that we have now.

So did that power lead you to Illumina sooner than later?

Yeah. How long was that? It was a little bit of an interim. So I went from, I spent about a year and a half at, at Yale and then went to a startup called Genesance Pharmaceuticals that was in New Haven and they were using some of the technology that was developed at Yale and that was the first introduction for me of pharmacogenomics the thesis of the company being, you know, not everybody responds to drugs the same way. Could it be their genomics? And one of the early applications was pharmacogenomics. So using pharmacogenomics in the clinical trials process to do inclusion or exclusion criteria, so very much all the things that we still talk about. But this was now, this was 1998, but still kind of ahead of its time. And so from there I got an MBA at University of Connecticut. So I started bringing together the science and the business degree because I was super passionate about the science, but more passionate about how do we put this science to work in a meaningful way in a durable business model in a way that it can be taken up by different institutions like Healthcare Systems or in Applied World. So that's where, where I sort of found myself after I united those two disciplines.

Got it. Interesting. I'm curious at that time, looking at how much data science is at play in the genomic world now, was it as evident then that code is code and human code is the same as computer code in that regard?

I don't remember thinking it that way. I'm sure there were smarter people who were already seeing that way. It felt like at that time. So now we're like early 2000s that. It was to me the question that was top of mind, if we could just generate more of this data at scale in a cost effective way and figure out a way to crunch through it in a meaningful amount of time. Because now you're in the period of the Human Genome project where it was just can we sequence a genome? Not what the heck would we do if we had millions of them? It probably was evident, but the problem of the time was how do you get these genomes cheaper, faster, better and with accuracy and all that stuff.

Got it. Okay. Interesting. I love to plant the stage of just what was happening at that time. So the Human Ventures project was still.

Going on, Human Genome Project, Human Genome.

Project was going on. When did that, I mean, what did that kick off for the whole industry?

Yeah, so that was 1990 to 2000. So it was a 10 year period. It would be about three years later in 2003 that the final draft form of a single human genome would be produced. So think about that, like 13 years, $3 billion on budget and on time. And so now we've got this sort of single blueprint of a human. But now we understand that's not scalable. So we've got to understand the differences in humans. We've got to get to scale and scope and diversity and then also recognize that it's not just about our blueprint. Right. It's about just like a house. It's not just about the blueprint, it's what happened, the environmental factors, other factors to predict what the ultimate structure is going to look like. So as soon as we got to genomes at scale, it became, okay, how do we have contextual information around it, how do we get to RNA and proteins? We're still in the early days of bringing those multifaceted data sets together. And that's really the question now is how do we create the information around that genome information?

Got it. Almost 30 years after the kickoff is still. Yeah, it's, it's really cool to see all the layers come together though.

Yeah, they're coming together. Yeah. Because a lot of the research that we've been doing is I'll say retrospective in nature. So can we get your clinical medical data largely in a retrospective capacity and have your DNA information and see if we can do correlative analysis with that? The next generation research and why I firmly believe people should and must be at the center to have this is, it's not just retrospective and DNA, it's environment, lifestyle, nutrition, more of the time horizon of the things that we do. What are we thinking about, how are we treating our mental health that becomes now a really rich data set to do next generation discovery. But to me that can only happen is if we engage people as research partners in a way that honors their needs for transparency and control and privacy and balance of value so that they can continuously permission that data and that data can be used as an evergreen research asset. That's what I'm super excited about.

Yeah, I mean, so inclusive sounding. It's really refreshing.

It feels good because I believe it's the right thing to do for people. We are acknowledging right now that data is valuable. Well, if it's valuable, it's yours. You should permission it, you should have rights to it, you should share in value created from it. So that's good. That feels good from a people first principles point of view. But it is also what we need to do for research. So good for people, good for business, good for the next medical breakthroughs.

Got it. Well, take us a little bit back towards, I mean how, what was Illuma like? Was it on your radar as an up and coming player or how did you find yourself there?

Yeah, so I was at the company, I mentioned that startup Genesance. I think I was there for about seven years.

Okay.

And again enjoyed this wonderful growth Phase of a company. And then Illumit at the time was about 300 people. Affymetrix was out ahead in terms of microarrays, but it was super exciting. It was this next player with some great leadership in a space that now I'm thinking like, how do you get this stuff at scale? So they were very interesting and I applied thinking, I'm not sure I'm going to get this. You're not confident in your skill set or whatever. And one interview led to three and four and five interviews and then ultimately got the job. So I joined very lean and mean sales force. I was the first sales specialist. I think there were about seven of us at the time. And so once again back into, you know, not hardcore startup, but still a very small company looking to lead Illumina's effort to get the technology into the pharmaceutical space. So they had really nailed the academic space. Now how do we start getting into the industrial space? So that was my first job at Illumina. It was super exciting.

That's pretty fun.

It was great.

Was San Diego an epicenter for genomic research already?

You know, I feel like it was definitely beginning to be, you know, the ABI thermal would come a little bit later. So I think it was beginning to be certainly not the space that it is right now. And at that time I was still working from Connecticut, so I was working from home, so to speak, but traveling like crazy.

Sure.

But certainly San Diego was starting to come up, especially in the genomics epicenter.

Got it. And Craig Venter, was he based here the whole time that he was doing his research too?

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, it's already.

Yes. You've got Jay Flatley, Greg. Yeah, yeah.

Really cool. Yeah. Okay, well take us quickly. Kind of what was like to go from a 300 person company to. To where, where it was when you left.

Wow. It was, it was a rocket ship. It was, it was a wonderful time in genomics, in what's possible, in the accessibility of genomics, in the application. So we started not just thinking about humans but, but microbes and crops and livestock. And so, you know, the accessibility begets additional opportunities to use this wonderful barcode of life. And so that was just tremendously exciting. But then growing a team and growing and seeing a mission, it was just a tremendous time. I mean we were a band of unstoppable people who, you know, competitors would be there, but we just had this steadfast commitment, belief, energy and just the attitude that we're going to do this thing and one thing after another. One success after another. Whether it was leadership in microarrays, to getting into ngs, to starting to lead ngs, it was absolutely a tremendous time as a company, but in the sphere of genomics as well.

Wow, that's really cool. Pretty cool to have such a brain trust together too.

Yeah, tremendous. In those early days, you're not really thinking about job descriptions or somebody telling you exactly what to do. It's just, just, you know where you need to go and you get there by any means. So it was a great time to be in.

Yeah.

Startup.

Everyone acting like an owner.

Everyone acting like an owner. That's very well said.

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah. So obviously a small group of you came together for, for something new and. And there's been a few companies that have spun out, I would say out of Illumina for sure.

Yeah. Informally or formally.

Yeah. And. And just because of the brain trust that was assembled to just run through walls. But you got, I'm curious, just when did the genome come together for Luna DNA? What was the genesis for it?

Yeah. So Bob Kane was obviously at Illumina for a very long time. He's credited with really being the engineer behind the thousand dollar genome. Getting that roadmap to really get the optics and the fluidics and the engineering down to get that not only that genome at a low price, but also what's lost in that the Moore's law graph that everybody shows was this increase in quality while the output was increasing. So that graph is even more exciting than it's often presented. But anyway, he also, as the cheaper, faster, better equation was starting to get tackled, was saying now what? How do we bring this data together at scale to do discovery? And was observing various data silos. We know lots of data is out there, but it was in silos. And the ability to federate that data wasn't clear. Some real restrictions, some behavioral restrictions. And so he was starting to organize groups to talk about how do we bring this data together at scale. Meanwhile, I was thinking about it more from a community perspective. How do we get the community involved? I was really thinking about our lack of diversity, our lack of engagement with people in their real world situations to be able to contribute to that research data set and generally how do we make the science more accessible? We been in an ivory tower with a lot of this science for a long time. And so, you know, in 2016, did the TED talk to just sort of my perspective is we need to get the community involved. It is time. And so Bob, from almost an Engineering perspective, me from a community engagement perspective. And then David Lewis, who is our CFO and a co founder, was thinking about it from an economic perspective that this asset looks valuable. How can we bring people together to honor that value, that value that they inherently have from it and the value that can be created from that. And so economics met, engineering met almost engagement. And the three of us sort of came together from very different point of views, but all seeing what the future could look like if we tackled all those elements in a cohesive way.

Wow, that's pretty exciting. And so what did that look like to take the leap?

Yeah, it was, it's super exciting. So it's sometimes nerve wracking and terrifying and exhilarating and all those great things all at once, such as, you know, the, I guess the adventure of a startup in the beginning. So we found it in October of 2017. A lot of the cryptocurrency, ICO, Bitcoin, that consumer hype cycle was going wild. But it looked like there needs to be this sort of disintermediation and this value exchange for data. So that was a good thing. That conversation was starting and so we felt good about that. But we did have to pivot because we didn't see the SEC really providing clear guidelines on how the rules, the governance, the oversight, et cetera, and even a lot of bad actors in that space. And so still honoring our mission and recognizing the tools that we could use. Blockchain as a tool, not your business model, but a tool you deployed in the business model and just other changes along the way. So the early days were really being honest about what's the vision and what are tools, not leading with tools. And so that kind of quick pivot to say, you know what, if it's really about fixing imbalance and value, let's approach the SEC about data as currency. So that was one of the examples of in the early days how you really, really have to separate vision from tactics and have a team that's willing to sort of say, you know what, tear that up, throw it away, let's start a new way. But on the vision. But we were super excited to have really engaged investors like Illumina Ventures and Arch Ventures that give you that support and guidance and clarity along the way. So very great in the early days and even better now we have 13 people really now are in execution and kind of prove it mode. So it's been a wonderful year. But one year from those kind of contemplations to where we are now, even less than A year actually.

Wow, that's crazy to see.

It's fun. It's a testament to having a really motivated, excited, self starting team.

Yeah, for sure. And you guys are still in a sense pre revenue, pre market almost.

In a sense we were definitely pre revenue. We went live. It was a very soft launch on December 5th, right. Following the SEC qualification. So following, you know, the minimum viable platform principles, get something out there because it's really the only way you can listen, learn and really then amplify what works well. So we've got our soft launch and our earliest lean and mean platform out there and we're excited with the uptake. We have lots of members now, which is exciting. And now we're starting to ask questions. What's working, what's not clear. What would you like to see more of? How are you feeling? Will you, would you refer somebody? So we're getting all that wonderful intelligence now so that we're ready for a formal launch which we expect in the months ahead.

Okay, that's exciting.

We're open. We're open, but very little quiet about it.

Yeah. So if someone, let's say they hear this, they want to join in in a sense they submit previously gathered data from A23andMe of some sort, right?

Correct. We're not, we're. We believe plenty of data is out there and there are plenty of data generators. So our focus is aggregation, organization, structuring and making data research ready through people first principles. So indeed the current types of information that are shareable on our platform are DNA microarray which you would get from a consumer DNA testing company and you should get download that data as well as health surveys and we will fast follow with lots more data types and utility tools around those data types. So you're not only sharing data but you'll have opportunities to further explore that data. But even just storing that data so you can start personally keeping a health picture I believe is personally valuable to you and then you have the added benefit of being able to accelerate research. So I think we've got a good start here.

Yeah, absolutely. Tell us a little bit about what you're seeing for this year. I mean so much growth obviously last year from starting to building this team.

Yeah, last year was the year of like, you know, get it up and out and now it's all about execution. So we're particularly excited about the partnerships that are coming. We're very excited about adding more utility tools. Like I said, you know, permissioning your data is awesome. Getting to know more about your Data in the process is even better. We will amplify other types of activities in the area of altruism rewards like community and belonging, and as I mentioned already, utility. And then look forward to having more members so that we can engage them and ask the questions. What needs to come next? What are you missing? What do you want to do more of? But philosophically, as we look very far ahead, we believe philosophically that every community, any community, should be able to organize under a research question. And then in the future, as tools become more ubiquitous, anybody can become a researcher through those principles. We think we can absolutely reshape science. But you got to honor people first.

Yeah.

Because they're the true owners and controllers of the data. They are the best curators of their health picture. And research needs to be continuous and longitudinal. We don't want to do research on what happened, we want to know what's happening. That's the essence of prevention. Right before something goes right off the cliff. What are those early indicators? So that's the next thing, and that's what we're super excited about. That's why we get out of bed every morning and that's why we form this platform.

Yeah. It's so inspiring. Can't wait to continue to follow along, that's for sure.

Thank you.

I appreciate that. Want to know a little bit more about your just connection to this community. Geographical. You were on the east coast for a while. What eventually made you take the leap to San Diego?

Yeah, so I always wanted to move here.

Oh, really?

Because I had been at Alumina for 12 years and had a great, you know, kind of ascent up the career ladder. Always new and exciting opportunities and. But I was. Someone gave me the advice, like, never move for your job, move for your family. And for a while, like, that didn't compute. It's like people move for their job all the time. But what started to happen, you know, about eight years ago is my mom and my dad both got sick with cancer about the same time. I lost them within a year of each other. So there was a period of time where I'm a mom, I'm a professional, I'm taking care of them and their house and their healthcare and what a crazy time that was. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. So, you know, I couldn't move. I couldn't move because I had family responsibilities. But when everything came to pass and the light was sort of coming up again, it was like, it's time to move and I'm moving for my family. And so it wasn't, you know, it made clear that advice I got early on. And so the family was super excited for a fresh start. The opportunity to sort of take the next leap in my career, to continue to move up the ladder at Illumina. In a community where, you know, collaboration and authenticity and impact is king. East coast isn't. Doesn't really like that. Right. It's very by appointment only. It's very pedigree. I don't mean to. I don't mean to trash that, but. But. But out here, anything's possible. And even as we built the business model. Does this make sense? You can. You can go reach out to anybody to validate your model. I need investors. Everybody will open up their Rolodex to investors. I need some members. I need people to come in and beta test it. You get all these people who are willing to help you beta test that. That just happens here. I think that's uniquely. That's uniquely San Diego. We want to see each other win. We've got this city pride.

Yeah, that's cool. To validate. I mean, it feels like we give before we get here, and it feels like a San Diego thing. It's hard to know if that's how other cities are or not, but it kind of sounds like there's something unique to that here.

Yeah. I can definitely say where I was. You know, maybe without a PhD, you know, without a title or whatever. There was a certain limitation. But out here, I don't think anybody cares about that.

Yeah.

Where have you been? What do you want to do? What kind of person are you?

Yeah. How do you do something together?

How do you want to change the world? Let's start there.

Yeah.

And then I'll sort of assess your credentials if I need to later.

Yeah, totally.

It's really great.

It's a beautiful thing. We're really happy you are here and that Luna's here too.

Thank you so much.

Awesome team. Tell us some of some of your favorites about San Diego. Your favorite taco spot.

I like. I like Las Olas.

Oh, yeah.

Just because you can wander off the beach. I love. I love the Cardiff beach. So it's. It's just so convenient. You're off having tacos with sandy feet, so I love it. It's just walking as you are, that's pretty great.

That's for sure. Yeah. And it's like minutes from your office.

Yeah, that's pretty good, too.

What about a favorite coffee spot?

I'm going to stay. We're on Seadro, so I'M going to stay with Cedros just because that's where we spend many, many, many hours. So I like Lofty. You can just hang out, you see people, you know, get the WI fi, get a little change of scenery, some fresh air while you're drink.

Caffeine I run into very often.

I know it's like Cheers, but with coffee. Exactly.

What about beer? I mean, our culture is right here too. Do you have a favorite brewery?

I, I, I prefer wine, but I do, I have been introduced to beer now and I, I do like culture. I think it's really great. And I like the Mosaic ipa. I've had that the most there. It's just. But all of them are really delicious beers. And again, another environment. We just kind of walk off the street.

Yeah.

And hang out.

Yeah. But also a really interesting community. The craft beer community being so strong here as well as just craft beverages now.

Yeah.

Craft wine. I mean even wine now. Crothers. Right.

Love crew. I'm a member there too.

Yep.

You can't afford not to be a member. It's like $38. You get a bottle every month and two glasses every week. Like it's kind of a problem. Like. But I met, I met some of the folks who were early investors. Like neighborhood people in culture.

Yeah.

And that, that's what I mean. It's just.

Yeah.

We'll just help each other out and get things going together for sure. So cool.

It's a beautiful thing. Well, you know, loved having this discussion. It sounds like. Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot for us to watch for you guys, you know, and to just get engaged and be a part of your guys community too. So we'll make sure that everyone knows, you know where to find Luna. But anything specifically where to find you. Are you on Twitter? LinkedIn? What's a good place?

Yeah, I split between Twitter and LinkedIn. I'm not an awesome social media person, but. But I definitely like those two platforms. So Twitter and LinkedIn are where to find me.

We'll link to it in the bio.

Thank you.

Thanks so much, Don. Appreciate the time.

Thanks for coming out.

Absolutely.

Great.

Thanks for joining us on the Tacos and Tech podcast with Neil Blum. Thanks again to Cox Business for helping make this possible by expanding the reach of the San Diego tech ecosystem. This has been a partnership with the San Diego Venture Group and the San Diego Regional Economic Development Corporation's SD Life Changing campaign. You find Neil Bloom on Twitter eelbloom and on LinkedIn.