Fighting Dementia & Alzheimer’s Using Big Data, Genomics, and Machine Learning with Julie Collens

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Cox Business and welcome back to the Tacos and Tech Podcast. I'm your host Neil Bloom here with CEO and founder of Vivid Genomics, Julie Collins. Julie, thanks for being here.

Hi. Thanks for inviting me.

I'm excited to chat about the world of genomics, especially from an early Stage startup perspective and get your expertise. You've worked at big enterprise, you've worked in the startup world, the research world. So let's dive in. Tell us what Vivid is.

Yes. Vivid Genomics is a precision medicine company in dementia. So our goal is to accelerate neurodegenerative disease drug development using genomics and big data and machine learning, and ultimately help drug developers get drugs into the hands of patients faster.

Awesome. This is one of the great San Diego stories where big bio meets big data. We get to take the world of nature and science and mix them with tech and software and code and data. And so this is something that's going to continue to put San Diego on the map, I think, because we're leaning into those two. So I'm really excited to see how you came to solving this problem. How did you get into the genomic space?

So I've always been really, really fascinated with the information that's contained within genomics. So I did my PhD in population genetics and actually did it in a non human space. But I just think the math of genomics and the dynamics of evolutionary biology are just completely fascinating. Population genomics is basically the study of looking at really large sample sets or really large groups of people or organisms and being able to make inferences from the genetics. After I graduated, I actually went to the dark side and I went to Wall street and I was a stock analyst for a few years, and I covered companies that were either developing technology to read genetic information or that were taking genetic information and turning it into diagnostics, primarily in the areas of infectious disease and oncology. And I had an opportunity to go to Illumina, which was the company on our list that was driving the genetics revolution, and held a couple of different roles there. And basically the thread of my career has been identifying big problems in healthcare where genomics can make a difference, and then finding the right tool to fit that need. So that's what we're doing at Vivagenomics.

Okay, so back on Wall street, was this like a hedge fund or what was the focus of the role as.

A South side equity analyst? So basically I was making calls on whether you should buy or sell Illumina and competitors and other life technologies was another company that we covered. So, yeah.

Okay, so San Diego was on your radar already as a big hub.

Yeah.

Okay, got it. So, and from a Wall street perspective, like, could you see that this was a place where just more and more was going to happen, you know, specifically in the genomic space or. I don't know, I'm just curious, like from a New Yorker being in New York, what's the perception of San Diego? You know?

Oh, so I was actually in the Midwest, so Wall street was sort of like broad categorization of anything that has to do with investment. So I actually. My sort of dirty secret is that I wanted to move to San Francisco and I had a couple of different offers at the same time. And I thought that San Francisco was where I wanted to be. And there was actually a big investor who I didn't know very much about San Diego as a place to live. I just kind of knew it as Southern California and, I don't know, didn't have this sort of big city cachet that I was kind of looking for at the time. And this investor was like, yeah, I refer to it as Cleveland by the sea. And I was like, oh, that doesn't sound very appealing. And then I came for the interview at Illumina and I was like, are you kidding me? This place is amazing. I would never leave if I got here. So, I mean, Illumina, I think itself is just such a juggernaut in the genomic space. I mean, you just cannot deny that. And there are so many different applications of genomics, from consumer to veterinarian, healthcare, rare disease. I mean, it's just there's so much across the spectrum. And so I think that that has led to a lot of, you know, small companies starting out as a result of, of genomics and, and particularly people kind of spinning out from Illumina. So, yeah, I think, I mean, I can't think of another city that has the same sort of genetic genome genomics momentum as San Diego.

So you came around 2012, is that right when you got to what was, I'm curious, like even Illumina then compared to now? Like, what was it like as a company then?

So it was sort of, I think there were 2,300 people that worked there when I started. And people described it as still feeling kind of like a startup. And in some ways it did. I think what I was struck by was just, I mean, there were so many incredibly smart, really fun, enthusiastic, energetic people there, and there was this kind of this cowboy mentality of like, oh, I see something that needs to be done, I'm going to go do it. And in some ways it was, you know, it was a fun environment to be in for that reason. I think sometimes it led to everybody doing 20% of somebody else's job, which kind of had its own challenges, but it was just, it was really fun. I mean, it was just, we got a lot done, it was exciting and I obviously can't speak to what it's like now. Yeah. So shortly before I left, there was a pretty big transition of the executive team. But I think genomics is just not going anywhere and I think it's just going to continue to be an interesting company and interesting things that come out of it.

So what technology area were you focused on at Illumina? What were you building?

So I was actually in market development and strategy roles. So the first role that I held was stimulating the market for whole genome sequencing before we launched the instruments that enabled the thousand dollar genome. So at the time I think the list price for doing whole genome sequencing was like $10,000. And there were a handful of genomes, honestly, that had been sequenced at that point. So we knew that we were coming up with these instruments that could do a genome for $1,000. But if you're selling an instrument that is predicated on that being the selling point, then you need to make sure that people understand why it's so important to do genomes. So that was the first role I held. And we had more than 100% quarter over quarter growth for two years and then launched the instrument and kind of the rest was history. And then I took a role doing market development for complex disease. So I was basically looking for areas of healthcare and research where genomics could make a difference and where we could accelerate the adoption of genomics, but they just hadn't historically or traditionally been done for whatever reason. And complex disease is anything that has multiple genes and an environmental contribution. So it's like a huge, huge set of diseases. A lot of late onset indications, things like psychiatric disorders, autoimmune diseases and dementia and neurodegenerative diseases. So I was the point of contact internally for a lot of these really large genomics consortia and got to know what was going on and just saw a huge, huge unmet need in dementia.

Got it. Okay. So I'm curious, kind of your entrepreneurial journey, like when, when you had the idea versus when you actually took the leap and, you know, quit the day job, what was that like?

Oh, what was that like? So my, like I said, my role at Illumina was to look for these areas where we could accelerate adoption. And so, you know, I was kind of looking for opportunities that we could push forward and say, look like this is, this is how important it is to incorporate genomics into whatever area. And I just saw such a huge opportunity with dementia and Alzheimer's specifically because the genetic contribution is pretty high and yet the unmet need is just massive. Right? I mean, there's like, Alzheimer's disease is the third leading cause of death in San Diego and is. The numbers globally are expected to triple in the next 20 years. So it's a huge, huge problem. So I had been working with a couple of few researchers that were starting this company and they wanted to get funding to do this really, really large project. And I was kind of helping them from my background as an analyst and trying to just sort of organize their thinking around it. And I was like, it would be great if I could use this as an example. They ended up not making a go of it, but that sort of got me thinking. I was like, wow, I'm trying to get attention for this within Illumina and trying to get funding and support and push within Illumina. And I kind of got to the point where I was like, you know what? I think if I really want to do this the right way, and I have such belief in it, I think I just have to go do it myself. So, I don't know. I guess, I mean, in some ways I feel like startup has always been my long game. So, I mean, to say, like, when did I start thinking of it? Like, probably even before I worked at Illumina. So, yeah, I mean, it was. In some ways, the timing just was right. I felt like, I mean, Illumina was such a high for so long, it was such an exciting place to be and we were doing so much, but at some point it was just. It was less thrilling. And a friend of mine kind of described it like breaking up with a boyfriend, where you're like, well, you know, I still really care about you and I hope it goes well and tell your mom I said hi, but I'm going to go on and do this next thing. And I was excited about it. So that was. That was the beginning.

Okay. And it sounded like it was a pretty entrepreneurial culture. You said people, you know, just went and started things, even if someone else was working on it. So, like, that was probably already part of the DNA. But did you see a lot of people leaving to start their own companies? Was that pretty typical?

Not then, actually, no. I think it was. Well, I guess it's sort of a. You know, there's an observation bias. Right. I mean, I see it now because I'm on the other side and I've left and I can see who else is kind of left too, so. But it did feel like it started Happening around the time or after I had left. I don't feel like I had a lot of examples to follow from that perspective.

Okay, got it. So what'd you do? What was the first thing to do to start, besides incorporating? Maybe, or maybe that came later. What does starting look like when you have next to zero resources compared to Illumina, at least?

Yeah, I mean, basically just, what's the business plan and where could we make money? And does this make sense from a. Is this something that is going to be a viable company and that can be really successful and can help a lot of people? And that was a big, big thing for me, too. It was like everything that I'd done so far was sort of watching things from the outside, and I want to have a difference. So, yeah, it was building the model and just realizing that it was something that we could make happen. And then rather than trying to get investment internally, it's like, then you can kind of get investment from wherever you can get investment.

Okay, so has that original idea. Has it changed, pivoted a good amount, or it's still pretty. Pretty much what you were trying to build even internally at Illumina?

No, it's definitely different from what I was trying to do at Illumina, which was sort of like broader adoption across different complex disease areas. Yeah, the original idea that I had was that this could potentially be a diagnostic because the alternative diagnostics are either a cognitive test that you get repeatedly over time, or lumbar puncture, which nobody really wants, or a really, really expensive PET scan. I saw that as an opportunity, like, well, at least we could screen and enrich for people who are going to need these other kinds of diagnostics. And I quickly realized that the world hates diagnostics, and without a drug in Alzheimer's disease, there's really no economic clinical utility case to make for why you should even do that. So then I kind of looked at the landscape and the ecosystem of what goes on in clinical care and drug development and just realized that drug developers like Alzheimer's disease and neurodegenerative disease, is just this graveyard of failures, and it's notorious for failure. There have been more than 150 failures in the last 20 years. And so the people that need the most help, that have the most interest in understanding what's going on with the patient populations, are the drug developers. And, you know, they're the ones that are, you know, going to benefit the most by understanding, like, does our drug work in the right population and who is that population?

Okay, so. And Most of our audience is probably going to be more software tech. So let's break down a little bit of that. The diagnostic side being you're saying there isn't a market for diagnostics usually because more from the payer side, like insurance and like won't pay for something unless there's some treatment or something else for it, Is that right?

Yeah. So if you're going to say, diagnose somebody with having a disease, usually it's the clinician who is trying to make that determination. Right. So it's like your neurologist or your doctor, and the reason that they want to know that information and the reason that a payer would pay for that information is because it's going to give them something to do next. Right. So you say, okay, yes, you have a diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease. What are you going to do next? So you're going to give somebody a drug or you're going to put them through some course of therapy and it's going to save the insurance company money because they're not having to do all kinds of other downstream expensive things. But in the case of Alzheimer's disease. Okay, so now you have a diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease, now what? There's no drug, there's nothing to do. And so that's. Yeah, it's just, it's, it's a hard business case because in diagnostics there's always this question of, well, who's going to pay for this? And you know, what, what, what is the value of that information? And it's just a. Yeah, the dynamics, at least within the US the dynamics change a lot when there is no drug.

Got it. So it's almost like going from like a B2C to a B2B focus. Right, B2C, meaning this is be the clinician. Yeah. Right. So the clinician is now your customer and you're helping them develop a cure. Right.

The pharma company is our customer. Yeah.

Right. Okay, got it. That's awesome. So how long ago was that kind of pivot or change of focus?

Within a couple months of starting the company. So that was the original intent and then. Yeah, had to change from that pretty quickly.

Okay, so what's it like starting a company in San Diego? Are there like local resources specifically for genomics founders or what are you utilizing there?

I wouldn't say there's formal structure for helpless genomics founders within San Diego. But, you know, like I said, there have been a bunch of people that had left and had started companies around the time or Shortly after I had so, you know, all those awesome, smart, energetic people that I was working with at Illumina are now doing their own thing on the outside. So I think that's been a, I mean that support system has been awesome. Outside of that. Yeah. I mean we went through the AD Astra accelerator program with Sylvia Nvidia and Alison Long and they've been really helpful and the mentors that I've met as part of that have also been great. We're also in JLabs. We were selected as one of the 2020 Cool Companies actually. It's really interesting because it wasn't anything. I came to San Diego to work at Illumina and then to find this other whole, you know, entrepreneurial activity going on is just been really fun.

Yeah. So take us through kind of where the company is right now, like from a technology development perspective. And what are you working on next?

Yeah, so we're actually kind of at a cool point. I'm really, really excited about what we're doing next. So so far we have, our approach has been to pull together really gold standard data and match genetics. So we're looking at 10,000 samples at this point. We've put together about 10,000 samples worth of data and where we've got both the biological data and the matched genetic data. And then we've developed algorithms to identify the genetics that are informative for the characteristics that we're looking at. And then we've been using machine learning to find the weightings and the combinations of those variants that are most predictive. So that's what we've got so far as an analytical platform for identifying genetics in DNA for this characteristics that matter. Now we're taking a much broader approach where we're actually looking across different data types and bringing in not just DNA based data, but expression data and EMR data and looking at even methylation and incorporating all of that. So, you know, ultimately the goal is to, you know, understand what's going on on a biological level that's driving disease and that's really what's going to give drug developers the most information and the best chances for having their drugs be successful.

Wow. Okay, so are you in fundraise mode right now too, to build more tech and team or what's the kind of corporate status that you're up to?

Yes, so a lot of the independent biomarkers and data types that we're trying to incorporate, we're in the process right now of developing those, or I should say develop the relationships we're now Setting up the contracts to work together and collaborate and then also expanding the team. I took a pause on fundraising when the whole Covid thing happened and getting ready to go back out in a couple of weeks.

Okay. Did you get some kind of signals, indicators that people are just not writing checks or you just wanted to focus on something else?

Yeah, I would say that it was explicit. Like, we are not doing anything for six to eight weeks. And. Yeah, it was. I mean, I think for everybody, it was just a really, really chaotic, confusing time. Right. And things were just changing so quickly that, you know, I could come up with a model and some scenarios one day, and it didn't matter at all the next. So, yeah, just made sense to take a pause.

Did you even look into. How could you lean into the cause? Could there be something that you did related to Covid or. It was really. Nope. Stay focused and just work on dementia.

Yes, I thought about it, but it was such a weird push. I mean, I think it makes sense if you have a platform technology, and it could be applied to a bunch of different situations or disease areas, and then. Okay, well, then we can direct and go after things related to Covid and Covid market. You know, in our case, it just felt like too much of a stretch. It's possible that there's a Covid dementia interaction, and certainly dementia is one of the risk factors for Covid, but it just didn't make sense. It would have just been too far side.

Got it. Okay. Are you guys back in jlabs or. Still kind of working remote as a team right now.

Still working remote.

Okay. So not able to get out there and get some San Diego tacos or other things?

Not yet, no. In fact, I rode my bike past my favorite taco shop, and it was boarded up, so. No.

That's sad. What is. What's your favorite taco shop?

Salud. In Barrio Logan.

Yes. Fantastic one. Weird to ever think that place wouldn't have a line, so that's got to be a weird feeling.

Yep.

What else are you gonna. Once things open back up, what's the first thing you're gonna go do? And eat.

Go eat. I think we've only gotten takeout, like, five times since the whole Covid thing started. I've gotten pretty comfortable with just being at home, actually. So. Anything about what? Opening up the thing I miss the most right now. I'm from Canada. The Canadian border is closed, and I was really hoping to go home this summer for a little bit, and I don't think that's going to happen now. So yeah, I think that would be the first thing I would do is go home, see my friends and family.

Awesome. Well we hope we get there soon, that's for sure. Julie, where else can people find out more about Vivid Genomics and you online, anywhere? Social. Social media?

Yep. We have a our Twitter handle is vgenomics and website is vividgenomics.com and I also did a TEDx women's talk in December and that's online and that really goes into the problems of drug development and dementia and why I think genomics can make a huge difference in this field. So if you want to hear more of the story there, that's available as well.

We'll link to in the show Notes hearkening back to your analyst days. Is Illumina still a buy?

You know what, I was constantly wrong on Illumina. I never thought Illumina was a buy even when I worked there. Yeah, it was funny. We were the only sell side shop on the street that was neutral on Illumina when everybody else was outperform. So is it still a buy? I don't know. I mean I would buy genomics all day long. Is the company itself as a stock a buy? Okay, yeah, I am long on genomics though I will say that that's the.

Right answer for sure.

Yeah.

By the industry. Is there a genomics etf?

I don't know. I don't think so.

Okay, now we got to go start one. Well Julie, thanks so much for being on. Really incredible what you're building. Huge, huge potential to obviously change some lives and save an incredible amount of lives. So we're incredibly excited for what you're doing and best of luck, especially navigating short term but long term too. So thanks again for being on.

Thanks. I appreciate it. Neil.

Thanks for joining us on the Tacos and Tech podcast with Neil Blum. Thanks again to Cox Business for helping make this possible by expanding the reach of the San Diego tech ecosystem. Big shout out to School of Rap for our rad intro music. And thanks as well to Nest Podcast Network where we are recording live inside their studio at Nest Co Working in Bankers Hill. You can find Neil Bloom on Twitter eealbloom as well as fresh brewed tech and tacos in Tech Pod on Twitter too.

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