From Ice to Innovation: How Hockey Happens with Colin Loveless of the Vegas Golden Knights
Podcast interview (Dec 2024) with Colin Loveless, systems administrator for the Vegas Golden Knights, describing his non-linear career path into sports IT, the blend of physical arena operations and networked infrastructure, and tools/partners the team uses. Key points: a small four-person IT group supports multiple sites; arena conversions use a "fiberglass puzzle" deck to protect ice (sheet of ice takes ~4–5 days to create, deck set-down ~1.5 hours); monitoring systems (Simcoe) track ice/compressor status; analytics tools such as Exos extract player possession and shot data from overhead video; the org runs an all-Meraki networking environment and recently partnered with Solus for upgraded intrusion detection/protection; uses automation tools like Microsoft Power Automate and Copilot. Discussion also covers cybersecurity trends, AI for analytics and Wi‑Fi optimization, fan experience expectations, and career advice for tech pivots into entertainment/sports.
Questions this episode answers
Four.
2018.
Exos.
Meraki (all-Meraki environment).
Solus.
Something that the team uses that I can speak on a little bit. It's a system called Exos. It's one of the coolest things I've ever seen. It takes a game feed, just a video of the game and it can spit out analytics for player possession, time zone possession time, shots on net, where the shot was from, all just from a basic overhead video feed. And so they take that again, analytics, they take that and use that to crunch the data for something that we used to have to have a person sitting and kind of watching the whole film and making notes on. It gives a lot of time back to the coaches.
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And welcome back to the Tacos and Tech podcast. I'm your host, Neil Bloom, and I am thrilled to have Colin Loveless of the Vegas Golden Knights on the pod. Hey, Colin, thanks for joining us.
Hi there, Neil. Thanks for having me. Really excited to be here.
No, I'm excited to have you personally. Huge hockey fan. So excited to nerd out on the back end, backside of what makes hockey run, which is you, honestly, as systems administrator, making sure that everyone and everything is connected. So I'm excited to dive in here. You want to give us the super high level of just like your area of purview and some of that that you work on.
Sure. So a lot of people don't know this. There are only four of us total taking care of the, the whole shebang there for Vegas Golden Knights and all the other IT under Foley entertainment. So day to day we do everything from user support, you know, end user help to, you know, more deep stuff like network administration, cybersecurity, kind of everything that comes with operating the Internet for an organization. It's in the macro level. It's not too much, too different from, you know, from any other organization.
All right, well we're going to dive deeper into some of that because there is a lot of magic that goes into to make sure that both the fan experience and the player experience is, you know, pro level, that's for sure. But you know, you've had a long journey up to this point and of just recently won a top Tech Las Vegas award to showcase all that you've put into your career. Can you take us back a little bit? Like how did Colin find his way here at the top of the entertainment world?
That is actually an interesting story. My whole life I've kind of been drawn towards the jack of all trades, master of none mentality. Some people would just call it adhd, but for me it's been more of a mindset. I'd rather work on a broader broad range of things. Mentally, that's kind of what brings me joy, is to learn a bunch of new things rather than to dive very deeply into any one topic. So that being said, my first job was as a volunteer firefighter. I was, I'll say, lucky enough to grow up in a county in Southern Maryland where all fire and EMS were volunteers. So my grandfather was a firefighter, my father was a firefighter. So I thought, I'll be a firefighter as well. My first ambition was to be a career firefighter. But as it turns out, a lot of people want to do that and jobs are actually pretty short in that category. It's a long waiting list and you have to be ready to drop everything. So after that I started working as a cook. I've done everything from working as a cook, working as a scientist in a lab. I taught music for a couple years. Seven years ago I moved to Las Vegas and That's where my IT career really kicked off. When I first moved here 2018, I actually worked two years in arena conversions down at T Mobile arena, which is where the Vegas Golden Knights play conversions, is responsible for swapping the arena between events. So say you have a hockey game Friday night in that concert on Saturday, right. It's their responsibility to. To convert the whole arena over. So all this to say, I didn't always work in it. I was always a huge nerd growing up. Definitely a geek in high school, video games, HTML code, the whole nine yards. But I didn't make a career out of it until I moved here to Las Vegas.
Interesting. And so seeing how I mean, one, how'd you even the stadium flipping overnight? Like, tell us a little bit about that. What's the magic that goes into it? What's kind of the secret sauce to make a fast turn? Happens flawlessly.
So one of my favorite things to tell people, because I feel like a lot of people don't know this at most arenas, I don't want to say all, because I can't speak for everyone, but at most arenas in the season, so we're in hockey season right now. If there's another event that's going on at T Mobile Arena, a concert, UFC happens at T Mobile arena all the time. There's actually a big fiberglass puzzle that gets set down over top of the ice. It takes about four days, four or five days to make an NHL grade sheet of ice. So melting it every time is just not an option. So that's the first step in any conversion. It takes about an hour and a half. With a good crew, you put down this big fiberglass puzzle over top of the whole rink, and then you're able to build whatever it is on top of that. Basketball, the ring, doctor gone. Excuse me, for ufc stage and a chair set for concerts, whatever it is. So a lot of manual labor, a lot of physical, you know, physical tasks. It was definitely the most in shape I've been since high school.
I bet. I mean, just think, well, obviously one ice is the priority, so you get that for sure. Does that even mean there's like connected devices to the ice to make sure the quality stays and everything? And so therefore there's even an IT infrastructure on just the ice aspect as well, too, certainly.
So at the moment, we're actually tenants in T Mobile Arena. MGM is the owner and operator. But for example, here at Lee's Family Forum, we own and operate this building, so I believe Simcoe is the system that we use. But absolutely, there's a ton of remote monitoring that goes in because so say the ice is covered by the big fiberglass puzzle. But maybe one of your compressors goes down so you start to. The temperature starts to rise. You need to know about that immediately. Because if that ice melts underneath the. The fiberglass puzzle, the deck, the ice deck, as we call it, not only is that a huge safety and structural issue for anything that's sitting on top of that, but as I said, it takes four or five days so to build that sheet of ice. So it's a very bad thing if you lose a sheet of ice completely. So you want to try and fix that as soon as possible. So that remote monitoring is a huge part of it. Yes.
Yeah. Wow. So you had a bunch of physical labor, but also technical labor and technical expertise you had to learn. On the flip side, what made you want to kind of go in house to the team side and go in specifically on the technology piece.
Yeah. So that's kind of the awesome final step of that. That's that long winded story I was telling about my origins there. I did that arena conversion job for a couple years with a good attitude, even though I felt like, you know, in my heart this isn't really what I want to be doing. But it was a good job, it paid well, lots of hours overtime sometimes. So that good attitude made it so that during my annual review, my supervisor asked me, he could tell, you know, what do you really want to be doing? And I said, hey, I've always had kind of an affinity for technology. Grew up around computers. You know, it's. I was born in 1993, so I, I grew. I was just old enough. I am just old enough to have used dial up DSL modem and now, you know, high speed fiber. So it's. I've really grown up with the Internet. So I told him so. And the very next day, because I had had such good work ethic and kind of showed myself worthy, he put me in front of the IT director at T Mobile arena for an interview and said, yeah, we're sad to lose you, but you're gonna do great. And yeah, I got to work that job for three or four months before the pandemic hit and we all got laid off. But as I'll go into in a little bit, that, that four months was enough to get some serious networking done. And that's kind of how I made it over to the team side from the building operation side.
Amazing. Wow. Take us through that. A little bit of just because now you've. I feel like Jack of all trades, but also a journeyman of all sides of the business. Right. From then to now. I mean, first of all, Covid affected everyone. And the ability to one, be a jack of all trades and find career progression forward is commendable in that regard. Take us through kind of the path to now from there.
Sure. So pandemic happens. We were actually mid NCAA men's Basketball tournament. There were four games that day. I think we played one of them. And they told us, hey, go and set up an emergency press conference. So from the IT side, of course, that's telco and. And all that. They announced that everything was being suspended, the tournament was being suspended, everything at the arena, basically the stay home order was coming out. Right. So that was. It was kind of an immediate and total furlough is how they referred to it. And so that was that. So spent a few months unemployed. And I was actually reached out to by a company called Vision Technologies here in Las Vegas. They take care of the school system. Clark County School Systems Network. So all this to say, I learned a lot about layer one and two networking, their kind of fiber types. It's a very large network. It's either the third or fourth biggest school district in the country. I think it was third and recently fell to fourth. So all this to say it was a perfect storm for when my supervisor Harvin, reached out to me. We had met during that brief time at Timo Ballerina. IT as vgk. Our tenants there, they have some network. We have some network elements that kind of sit on top of Timo Ballerina's network infrastructure to provide our network to coaches and staff when we're there. So he reaches out and says, hey, we're opening this new arena, the one that I'm sitting at now, Lee's Family Forum. And you have the perfect blend of arena operations and IT knowledge and network, administrating knowledge. So we would like you to join the team and help us to get this building rolling. So really, it was every step of the journey, even when I was just basically lifting and putting down heavy objects for arena conversions. That was all. Those were all pieces of the puzzle that came together to make me the perfect fit for where I landed. Now. So truly stick with the process type of story.
Laying the physical and metaphysical fiberglass covering over the ice to keep you moving forward towards career progression.
Absolutely right.
Yeah. Amazing. So what is everything and what's your job fully encompassed now? I would imagine, you know, always more things to do and more. More. Not enough hours in the day. But what are all the aspects that go into running multiple teams?
Yeah. So as I was mentioning right before we kick the, kick the segment off here, it's my title is systems administrator and I've heard it called the most feared job in IT because it's very all encompassing. There's a lot of different things that it can mean, and at different places, it means different things. For me, it means everything from we try to offer what we call a white glove service to our users, right? They have, you know, very demanding jobs, ticket sales, sponsorship, things like this. They need their technology tools to work. Their job is already hard enough trying to sell tickets and sponsorship deals to folks. You know, prices for events are high these days, so it's a tough job. They need their tools to work, so we try to provide a premium service to them. One of my favorite examples for us is we don't use a ticketing system. We try and take care of things right away. And luckily we're still at a, at an organizational size where we can do that. We can provide individualized white glove service to folks. So there's that aspect of it, the user support, anywhere from, you know, the account executive that started yesterday to the vice president of building operations. These folks all need their technology tools to work. We also take care of the network. It's as the company grows, we're not just in Las Vegas anymore. We have several hotels on the West Coast. Even in town here, we're a bit separated, I think City, national arena, where the headquarters of the Vegas golden knights, it's about 25 minutes up the road. So all of these sites need to talk to one another as well. As the company grows, resources need to be shared. So making sure that we're able to share those corporate resources safely across those distances is another big part of the job.
Wow, that's a lot for sure. And you bring up great points of just being able to help the team itself grow. Which gives you more to grow on as well too, from venues and networks in all that regard as well. To do split up like fan engagement, player experience, front office, back office, or how do you guess, split up your own kind of areas of focus.
Yeah. So there are four of us total on the team. We've got two IT managers, Harvin Chavez and Kyle Merritt. Kyle sits up at City national arena and Harvin is my direct supervisor down here towards the Henderson area. And then we've got our security systems administrator, Brittany Rodriguez. She's actually last year's top tech winner from this category. She is our security wizard. She takes care, she takes the lead on everything. Cybersecurity and makes sure we get user training out. We're updated on any threats that are coming out, mitigation for attacks that come in. It's an interesting trend. The better that VGK does, the better our record is. We see a similar correlated uptick in cybersecurity threats and incidents.
Wow. So what does that do from a one, you can't let the fans ever see that, obviously. Right. In a sense like this just has to be impervious. So what do you do to kind of build the fan experience so that it's everything is just kind of seamless? Like you never even think about tech in that regard from a fan?
Well, you hit the nail on the head. And not just the fans, but we try and make it that way for our users as well. Right. That's, you know, the last thing they need to be worrying about is, you know, is this phishing or not, you know, is this email legit? So we try and shield everyone from that as much as possible. And then for the things that we can't, that's what the user training is for. When it comes to fans especially, you hit the nail on the head. The fan experience that we aim to offer here in Las Vegas, you know, we're aiming to become the sports capital of the world. I would say it has to be seamless. People expect it to be seamless, rightfully so. So when it comes to things like service reliability, wi fi service reliability or even for our tenants in the arenas in lease family form, which we own and operate, people expect a certain degree. Right. A certain echelon when they come to Las Vegas. And we aim to meet that.
Yeah, you bring up a great point with it's already the top entertainment capital of the world now leveling up to be the top pro sports team capital of the world in that regard. And you mentioned some of the cybersecurity pieces. Anything else that's like super unique of kind of the tech environment, tech world that you face on a day to day basis.
I would say that sports carries some unique IT challenges with it. We touched on the kind of width of responsibilities already. So it's a very dynamic and kind of constantly changing environment. Things can change day to day, things can change season to season. An example that comes to mind is from a previous season to this season, they might update the, you know, maybe the league updates the rules on video review. And so we're responsible for those video review iPads and the system that enables it. So we need to make sure that we're in compliance. It's that kind of thing that you just never really know what you might come in and find in your inbox on any given day. Saying that it's one of my favorite parts about the job. I think I would be very bored at a job that that wasn't like kind of the same thing every day, you know.
Yeah. You mentioned the add aspect which I think a lot of technologists, honestly and generalists and jack of all trades face, they love new challenges to solve new problems to solve. Any tech that you kind of go to or recently implemented that you kind of like, yeah, I can't wait to do more of that or what's the next thing around there.
Yeah, definitely. Well, we're lucky enough that we run an all Meraki environment and that's I have to touch on. The Meraki cloud is just one of the nicest things I've ever used. I came from background where I was configuring and troubleshooting routers and switches all in the cli which is great, makes me feel like I'm in the matrix a little bit. But at the end of the day a nice GUI is always just a little easier when it comes to more complex problems and hunting them down. So excuse me. Meraki's cloud is a great one. We're getting ready to. I think it was in the news recently we partnered with a company called Solus. So we're upgrading our cybersecurity pretty significantly with them. They're going to do everything from intrusion protection detection to you know, firewall. It's basically as we grow, like I said, we see an uptick in these threats. So it's a nice opportunity to be able to bring a sponsor on for the sponsorship side of things as well as improve our, our safety and security. So really excited to see how that shakes out in the next few months here.
Amazing. What else besides the cyber and security aspect and not to belittle that at all, like what are some other trends that you kind of foresee coming in down the road here on the sports.
Side for sports and you know this is going to be a gimme answer kind of low hanging fruit but I, it has to be. I, I'm fascinated all the time. I haven't seen it really break into the NHL yet but you can watch any given Sunday, the NFL broadcast. You'll see them bringing up the analytics whether a coach should or shouldn't go for it on fourth down. Right. AI is doing that stuff. I think IBM is sponsoring it. Whatever. Whatever it is that kind of. And this is Where I think people are thinking in the wrong direction on AI. People are thinking iRobot, right. I'm thinking more data analysis, big data analysis done very quickly. So I think one of the ways that we use AI is in our wireless system actually comes with an AI analytics tool built in that can do things like optimize the bands that you're using for various SSIDs, optimize the, you know, the APs now have the ability to talk to one another and optimize their power so that you're getting as little interference as possible. So it's got to be AI, but I'm not worried about it taking over, taking anyone's jobs. To me it's a tool, right. It's almost like the loom when it was invented or the printing press. It's only as good as the people using it, but it's should revolutionize everything.
Yeah, and the way you talk about it, you know, on, on live, on the Sunday broadcast, you know, it's a copilot right, in that regard. But it takes having a data infrastructure, a data warehouse set up ahead of time to query that data, which means that you're running that for your own teams and therefore the opportunity for you is on the back end to just make that more that data more and more enriched so that the AI can tap into more of that. So is that more of like an internal team strategy where you use internal team data or is it at a, you think at an NHL or just a sport level that is being pushed?
I think both. Honestly, I think the answer is both. We are always looking to utilize new technology to, you know, do better at our jobs or make our lives easier. You know, like I said, when it comes to big data, it's, it's about taking that human bias out of the situation as much as possible. Someone has to program the AI, so there's always room for bias. But internally, yeah, we're always looking to use that data. I know our sales folks are always looking to process data for leads, things like that, but I do think that we're going to see it more and more prevalent in sports in the coming years for various uses. The MLB is starting to test out robo umpires, right? So who's to say that we won't use AI to make that data better, stuff like that. But like you say, you have to have the infrastructure in place and there has to be somebody operating it happen by itself.
But because you're part of a league, there's like a league minimum that everyone, every team In a sense has to have a certain set of infrastructure or is it on every team to make their own technology investments team by team?
So it's definitely, it's definitely on each team. The league sets out requirements for certain things. So for example, on the medical side of things, right, you have to have a secure way to transmit that medical data, X rays, stuff like that. But outside of really specific stuff like that, it's kind of up to each team how we choose to utilize technology to kind of accomplish what we're trying to do. And I think that looks different even within the league for, for each team depending on maybe what the expectations are, what ticket sales expectations are, how the. Or that's another thing I've learned is, is a lot of these organizations and the NHL are structured a little differently. There are some teams where the owner might own an NFL team as well. Right. So they've got access to maybe a bigger infrastructure. Right. Whereas NHL is not so big in America yet. So since that's our primary team at this time, we're at that level, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, totally. It's super interesting. I mean, the front facing business is the game of sport, which is super competitive, right. And why wouldn't the teams on the back end operate like that is too? Why wouldn't every one of you be competitive and find your own edge and that some that could be technology, some that could be, you know, the city, the geo that you're in and the kind of fan base and all that makes, you know, the whole business, I would imagine, super interesting to play environment wise.
Yeah, for sure. And it really, it comes down to what the ownership group wants to invest in certain areas as well. Right. So maybe one team builds a really nice film room, right? Big TVs, whatever it is, that's not a requirement to have 10 big TVs in your film room, but maybe that team really likes to watch film. Not speaking on our team, just an example. So yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting. Something that the team uses that I can speak on a little bit. It's a system called exos. It's one of the coolest things I've ever seen. It takes a game feed, just a video of the game and it can spit out analytics for player possession time zone possession time shots on net, where the shot was from, all just from a basic overhead video feed. And so they take that again, analytics, they take that and use that to crunch the data for something that we used to have to have a person you Know, sitting and kind of watching the whole film and making notes on it. Gives a lot of time back to the coaches.
Yeah, amazing. That's. That's got to feel really fulfilling to be just pulling in technology to. For everyone to be successful. Right. And like you said, the more that the. The team itself on the ice is successful, maybe, yes, you're more of a target, but that's probably what you potentially want. You want to be the biggest name in sport because that lifts the whole organization up in that regard. Right. Does that feel like, you know, we're all one big team, even from the technology aspect?
100%. And there's a big emphasis in this organization in particular, I can speak on from the top down that everybody is pulling on the rope, and that's from the business side, from the hockey side. Everybody's got that same mission in mind. We're all contributing towards. Towards the same goal when it comes to NHL. That's the. The cup. Right. We're all pulling on that rope. The ticket sales folks are doing their job to make sure other people can do their job, to make sure other people can do their job. Right. The players have to do their job and play well. Like. Like they're able to. So, yeah, it's. It's a really cool feeling and one that I think I hadn't had until I started with, with the organization here of a bunch of people really just giving their all and working towards a single goal.
That's gotta feel really, really fulfilling in that regard. And especially for making this big career pivot. Right. And having, you know, it turns out Covid was a blessing in disguise that it directed you down this path. Not everyone gets a pandemic to shake things up for them, but any advice you'd give towards someone who is just maybe starting a new career, pivot towards technology or is interested in, you know, this path towards entertainment, sports, like, what. What would you look back on and give people some advice?
Around 100%. My favorite thing to say these days is you have to be good to be lucky, but you have to be lucky to be good. And what I mean by that is it definitely takes luck. I have been incredibly blessed to have people take chances on me when I didn't have on paper anything to show I was fully capable. This job has been great to me, and I think I've been a really good fit for the job. But on paper, you would have never known that it took people giving me chances. However, that luck came at a time when I was. When I say good, I was working hard. I didn't think myself above any job. I had a good attitude. I tried to be kind and uplift the people around me every day. You know that kind of attitude. If you're persistent about it, luck will come your way. Luck will find you. I truly believe that. But you have to be ready for it. You have to be ready when luck strikes. As far as it and entertainment for it, I would say don't let, if you don't have a degree, don't let that dissuade you at all. Certifications are an excellent path these days and can honestly prove your knowledge a little better than a degree. Sometimes degrees are fantastic, but something like a CCNA or even an A plus and a network plus, so that kind of thing, if you feel like you've got an affinity for it, just go for it. And don't be afraid to work a job that is not your favorite to get some experience under your belt and try and keep a good attitude about it. Sports and entertainment, it's a lot of networking. I won't lie. It's few jobs for lots of folks. I was super lucky. This is maybe the luckiest I've ever been to combine the nerdy half of myself with the very slightly jock aspect I had. I actually played ice hockey for six or seven years, high school, out of high school, until I got bonked on the head one too many times. The doctor asked me to stop playing contact sports. But it's, it's a lot of networking. But don't be afraid to apply for things that you don't think that you're ready for. That's another good piece of advice. Just apply what's the worst that can happen. I love it.
Such great advice. Wow, words of wisdom here. One piece. Also I think that I see from you is show up. I mean, you showed up in a new city that is the pro at entertainment and is becoming in sports and you jumped into that. Right. Like a lot of people would also feel intimidated. It's like, oh, it's Vegas. They, you know, I'm not that industry. I'm not. Maybe you don't have the skills yet for. And you know, look where that path took you in a relatively short time. Right. You know, from putting from driving forklift, I would imagine to literally powering tens of thousands of people's experience. Kudos to you for showing up and, and you know, making it happen. So it is a lot on the person. Like your original quote, you got to be good to be, to be lucky in that regard. You got to show up to be even in the arena in that regard, right? So thanks for great, great words of wisdom there Colin. On a day to day you mentioned AI. A lot of us are using GPT on the side on our phone, helping us on our day to day. Do you have any other little personal tools and tricks that you rely on right now just to kind of help power your day?
Well, I tell you what, and I'm not sponsored by them or anything, but Microsoft Power Automate, we're lucky enough to have it included in our license. It has been really interesting. Not only I come from a small scripting background when it comes to Python, but never really used a GUI based scripting system like Power Autom is. It's been very useful for automating repetitive tasks, onboarding tasks, ad account creation, stuff like that. Now I will put a disclaimer. With automation you have to be very careful because if one line of your code is wrong, all of a sudden you've automated a hundred things incorrectly. Right? So Power Automate's a great one. Always love good old fashioned putty to SSH in. I've been using that for years now, so I gotta mention putty I think that's about. Honestly, it's on a day to day basis we try not to get into anything too complicated because like I said, automation can, can get you in trouble pretty quickly and we're still not too, too big where we have to automate too much. But yeah, ChatGPT, honestly Microsoft Copilot is pretty decent as well. They've got that built into to Power Automate and into Edge. So it's come a long way.
Yeah, for sure. In a short period of time for sure. Soon it will be building itself, that's for sure. Well, nothing powers us up. Be the tech as the food. And this being the tacos and tech podcast, we got to know what tacos power your day. Colin.
Sorry about that. I've got actually kind of a controversial take on the taco. I don't think a lot of people will resonate with this. The place maybe, but the dish not so much. So there's a place right near the arena here in Henderson called Tacos Los Barrios and they're excellent, they have a great social media presence. Their famous dish that they put on social media all the time, they actually have a birria ramen. So kind of like, yeah, it's really, really good. On a cold day like in the wintertime, summertime, it's a little too hot for soup. But I always When I go to a taco shop, I know it's a good taco shop. If they offer lengua. That's cow tongue. I gotta tell you. If you haven't tried it. Anyone listening? If you haven't tried it, try it. It's like the most tender roast beef you've ever had. It's very flavorful. Just don't think too much about it. My mom says she doesn't want to eat anything that's tasting her back while she's eating it, but, you know, I don't think that kind of.
I love it. That's. We love a good hidden hit. We love controversy for sure too. You know, there's no wrong answer to this. It's just a personal preference in that regard. And that's what we love about, about tacos and tech.
It's.
It's preference in that regard as well too. Colin, this has been awesome, man. I, I loved nerding out here as a hockey fan. Also someone who relates with getting too many concussions and having to stop playing contact sports. I understand. That happened for me in surfing and in hockey as well too, so. But yes, love hearing it. Excited to stay connected and watch your, your, your star rise. So thanks for powering a great experience, giving people some great advice and congrats again on the Top Tech Award. It's well deserved and I'm excited to have you here. So thanks again for being on Neil.
Thanks so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you again.
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You want tech in tacos, tacos in tech, you know we got it.
Hey.
Startups get the party Startups get the party started? Startups get the party Startups get the party started? Startups get the party Startups get the party started.
You want tech and tacos, tacos in tech, you know we got it.
Hey, 80.










