Making Mental Health a Priority with Melani Gordon and Jennifer Exum

Startups get the party. Startups get the party started. Startups get the party. Startups get the party started. You want tech and tacos, tacos and tech you know we got tacos and tech is on smash border green guacamole keeper countins counting beans Contador quentan frijoles found us trying to raise some queso la vida San Diego school of rappy rapping fire tortillas round jalapenos in these modern times a crappy beer and coffee my coding yoga posse fold the body origami we be surfing coronado eating tacos El gordo, the taco stand in pesto lucha libre and sombrero got a shout out to cost angels by the ocean watch the sunset la Hoya shores Entrepreneurs trying to get funded When San Diego Startup Week is popping in the summer Oceanside, the Tijuana esti be full of hustlers from couch surfing to penthouses right on the beach Tech leaders who you believe stars are within reach we interview and founders who be shooting for the Moon SDTechOS with your host Neil Bloom. Startups get the party startups get the.

Welcome to the Tacos and Tech podcast where we discover cutting edge San Diego technologies and the builders making it happen. I'm your host Neil Bloom, San Diego's tech ambassador and together you're going to put a face to the name of today's tech leaders with our own blend of local lifestyle. This segment is brought to you by Cox Edge. Our longtime partnership with Cox Business has helped their engineering teams develop new tech products for small businesses and startups. Cox is investing in Edge capabilities and working with developers and engineers across the ecosystem to deliver ultra low latency compute solutions, helping customers to improve application performance and to reduce cloud transport and on premise infrastructure costs. Interested in hearing more about Cox Edge? Please visit coxedge.com and mention Neil Bloom or freshbroodtech.com for our partner discount. And welcome back to the Tacos in Tech Podcast. I'm your host Neal Bloom and this week is National Suicide Prevention Week. This is a conversation that we want to have because mental health is a real deal for everyone. I mean Covid has done a number to every single person but for founders, entrepreneurs, execs, people even working at startups even more so, are often twisted and turned in so many ways we couldn't imagine. And so I want to bring on as guests here with me to experience people who've been through this on both sides, who have helped, who have gone through mental health issues and we want to have a real proactive conversation around what can we be doing to help our startup community. So I'm thrilled to have Melanie Gordon, new program director of techstars Anywhere. Welcome, Mel, and congratulations. And Jennifer Johnson, Exum President of JRE Careers, thanks for being here too. Real quick, do you each want to give a little bit of background especially relevant to the conversation we're about to have? Mel, why don't you go first?

Sure. Thank you. I know I've been on the podcast before and shared a lot of my history. I just stepped down as CEO of my own company today, so that brings on a lot of mental well being pieces. I'm the new program director at techstars Anywhere with my dear friend Ryan Cooter and Jen is also a dear friend of mine who's been a huge contributor at our company. And we'll talk about those details and why it matters to founders and leadership. Most importantly, you know, with all that's going on in the world and continues to do so, I think the stigma of talking about mental health and going to therapy is, you know, definitely changing even in my inner circles and so want to help provide resources for that. And so for those of you that don't know, I did lose my younger brother two years ago, sadly to suicide. He was 39 years old. And I recently just got voted onto the board for the American foundation for Suicide Prevention for the State of Nevada. So I'm very active. I'm getting trained in certain areas called Talk Saves Lives. And so I'm really diving in to help support different communities where I can.

Thanks Mel, really appreciate you being here. And Jen, a little bit of your background.

Yeah, so I've been in the human resources community in San Diego for over 15 years. I've worked with a lot of startups in the tech space as the Director of People and Culture. And I've been able to in the last couple years pivot my HR skills to being a career coach and helping people navigate their careers, their jobs, what they're doing in their lives, and helping them find appropriate places to be in their lives that work for them. And so over the last couple years, I have seen some amazing epiphanies of people where they've been that have been. I've been in a toxic workplace. I've been somewhere that's not healthy, I've been somewhere that's not safe and preemptively having relationships with clients where we're just talking on a monthly basis to talk about the challenges that are faced at work so that people have an outlet to be able to talk about the challenges that they face. So I've had a chance to really be with a lot of people. And taking care of other people also puts your mental health on strain. So the last couple of years, last 18 months, I've had two teenagers in my home for 18 months while trying to work full time or working full time. I wasn't trying. I actually did it. And taking care of people all the time, you know, taking care of other humans, being that support to a lot of people, it takes a real toll on your mental health. It's one of those things where I have to keep stepping back and making, doing a spot check. Am I taking care of myself? Am I doing what's right? So I'm really excited to be here today. I've been able to be a really big support to Mel and we've had a really great relationship for the last 18 months, for sure. Navigating these crazy waters that we've all.

Been through, can we dive into a little bit of just like some of the actual experiences, Mel, that you and your team have gone through? Even, even before, you know, Covid, I know you guys embarked on a big change. Going remote before remote was cool or a necessity. Right. Give us a little bit of like what resources were in place before that and when did you realize and have epiphanies. You needed extra resources, you know, for kind of the well being of your team, maybe that'd be helpful.

So I think a lot of people think about hr, you know, it's more transactional. Are you in compliance with, you know, all the stuff that you need? And Jen's mom, Michelle was one of my many executive business coaches probably seven years ago. She quickly became mine and my co founder, who's my husband, marriage therapist. We were doing fine, but like, definitely some communication barriers. And so I'm always a huge proponent of finding a business coach who has a knack for the communications and kind of family origin side of things. It isn't just straight strategic. So we got very lucky in meeting Jen and Michelle and her family because that's what they do bring to the table. When we reorg the company, I definitely needed support to wrap my brain around that I was letting go of a lot. We went remote before, 100% remote before COVID And we also had Jen as a part of our team even before then. But she was aware of that change so that she could actually coach those who were leaving the company. Right. So we, we paid for that, we invested in that because I truly believe that As a leader and a founder, like, my reputation is critical. And so it was important for me that those employees that were. Were off ramping where it was done professionally. And I still talk to those people today. And then for those who were staying on board, I couldn't just walk around with the weight on my shoulders any longer. It really took a toll on me. I did hit burnout. There were some really bad situations. And so it was like, I gotta ask for help. And more than just hr. That's very, very clear. And so Jen stepped in to help. Career coach, therapy coach. Lots of confidential stuff that I don't even know about. Right. That our team just loves. Jen and I would check in periodically to make sure that she was the right person, that the investment that the company was put into that was being used as a resource. And so I have no shame in saying, like, we paid for a therapist to be on our team. I mean, literally. And. And so I feel like it's becoming more of a common. It's not a perk. Right. It should be something that leaders take a crucial look at because the stigma in health care and therapy isn't widely available to everybody, even if you do have health benefits. So, yeah, so that's the. The short. The short part of it.

And Jen, maybe you can take us through. Obviously not pick anyone's name out, but what are some of the things that employees go through? I mean, maybe be cathartic for listeners to just hear what other people are saying to you of, like, what they need help with and things like that.

Well, you can imagine if, you know, 95% of your team is eliminated and you're kept. There's some survivor's guilt. Right? There's some idea that, why did I get picked? And now I feel really bad. Most startups, you get really close with your colleagues. You get really, really close with the people that you build something with together. And so this team had built something together and they really cared about each other. And then seeing people let go and a couple of, you know, a handful of people got to stay, there was some real guilt in do I deserve to be here? And I feel bad for my teammates. And we had to talk through some of that process of it's okay to feel sad about that. It's okay to feel a little bit of guilt that I got left behind and also understand that every single person landed on their feet and that we supported all of those individuals to land on their feet. We helped. It was so important to Mel and Flash and Tap Hunter to be able to support their team even in the transition, like Mel said, even off ramping individuals still giving them the same support. So many companies say, oh, we have an erp, right? We have an employee relationship, we have this go use your benefits. And I don't know if any of you have ever tried to navigate one of those systems, but I mean it's not really helpful. It's not personal, it's not somebody actually caring about you. It's very transactional. People need a place to talk. They need a place to talk to share what's going on in their heads and their hearts. Because once they do get that out, they end up doing really good work. And this team really was able to take what was a large team to a small team and able to do incredible work for this organization. And they knew they had the support, so they knew they were cared for and not to go into a different direction. But we keep talking about this great resignation of 2021, right? All of these individuals leaving their companies. And there was a great article. I'll share it with you as well. Neil. Again, another link. The number one reason people are leaving is because they're not cared for, they're not taken care of. And so people aren't leaving their jobs because the work's too hard. They're leaving because their companies aren't caring for them. And so it was so important to Mel to make sure that her teammates were cared for and that they had a place to go to talk.

Mel, how'd you know that your team would need that? I mean it's very easy for founders to have a little bit of blinders on and just say I'm focused on my role and managing people, but not necessarily like managing the things that the soft skills like, how did you know that?

I unfortunately knew it because I had nothing left to give. So I myself personally hit burnout. And so it was, unless I'm just not going to care and go silent, everyone on this team will quit. And so I knew that I needed to bring support in that could handle that level of support for the people on our team. You know, we're talking about employees who have been with us for seven years, like I know them and even those that hadn't we. Jen's mom, Michelle worked with us after we raised, you know, a million dollar round employees that had been with us for three or six months had access to her. So it's always been an ingrained part of personal development. I mean, one of the main reasons I started my company was so that I could help build other people. And then that was just kind of a piece that, you know, that was a piece of our formula that I think special but needs to be more common day. Right. We're working in remote environments and perks of kegerators and ping pong tables are not a thing anymore. And just sending someone a benefits package of, you know, health and 401k isn't going to do it anymore. And so I think it's really important for teams and leadership to really rethink about, you know, the types of things that they're offering their employees. If someone's stuck in at home and isn't talking to their partner, roommate and nobody else and their stigma around getting a therapist, they couldn't even imagine it. It's like you'd be surprised, you know, if they know that there's a gen resource on their team. Like what? And I've seen the impact of the transformation of people on our team because of it. Right. So being patient but then seeing the amazing work and personal development and growth that the employees have. Not to mention retention. Right. So a lot of people jump and ship right now and there's nothing worse than trying to re recruit or bring new people onto a team. So that was really the other piece of it is I know how hard it is to recruit, interview, train and onboard employees. And so I think it was that retention mentality for me it's like what are all the ways that we can retain good people? Right. Not everyone needs to be on the, on the ship. So it's like how can you retain, you know, good people?

Wow. I mean first of all it feels unique. I feel like this is maybe every company startup does this, that raises a million plus. I don't feel like they do. So I feel like you're super forward thinking in that regard. But I know Mel, that you've got a long time CEO group that you've been a part of. Can you speak to like does anyone else do that? Have you shared these kinds of tips amongst you and what kind of support, mental health support you think like the group provides for each other?

That's a great question. So I've been a part of different CEO peer groups for the better part of 10 years. One I've been in like two at the same time at any given time. But the one I'm in now has been the longest rating. I've been pleasantly surprised by the level of sharing that's happened in that group. And the men asking for each other's marriage counselors was really A breath of fresh air for me. And it's changing because it hasn't always been like that. And so this was pre Covid and so you get like minded people who trust each other in a confidential group with no outsiders in there. And it creates a safe space for CEOs that have the weight of their, you know, of the world on their shoulders to really start to support each other. And just a couple weeks ago one of the members said, oh, does someone have a therapist that they like? One of my employees is asking. So now it's trickled down like it's okay for CEOs to talk about having, you know, you can say you have a business coach, but I'm sorry, my business coach was also my therapist. And I'm very open. Like I have a, a new therapist that I've been with for the last few months and I'm very open about it and I think everyone should have one. They need to be a match for you. But I've realized that group, since we've talked about ourselves, it's starting to trickle down into their teams. And so One of the CEOs had an employee come to them and say, I'm looking for a therapist. Do you have a recommendation? Like that's that I get the goosebumps. Like it, it's not great and where it should be, but things are changing and people are, you know, helping by talking about it lessens the stigma. And so my wish for this is that there's literally one person listening that is like, oh my gosh, I have permission. Or even if you don't tell anyone, you can still, you know, there's great apps. I'm looking, I know there's like BetterHelp and stuff that I haven't heard great reviews about, but there's new ones out there. They're getting millions, massive funding. So like one is cerebral that has a whole new take on online therapy. So I'm very excited about where technology is going with mental health and apps and not just like the standard better help where you get like a 10 minute chat with a therapist. There are some very, very exciting big money being dumped into mental health and technology right now, which is long overdue, definitely.

Especially because it sounds like it's fallen on, you know, the non mental health professional, like an HR person who isn't trained in this is falling into this role. Jen, maybe you can talk through like some of the unique roles that companies should be looking to outsource for someone like this because it's not, like I said, not Just hr.

It doesn't have to be hr, but sometimes just a place to listen. And we know most HR people and we know startups don't always put HR in the. In a role right away. We wait till there's 50 employees, 100 employees, employees, and we outsource every bit of that. And yet maybe having that person in sooner to learn the team, to learn all the personalities, it's not transactional of processing payroll, although they could do that. But the idea that there is a place for people to go to talk about their work, inside their work and someone who understands their business. Right? And so having that person on staff, it's what I did in every one of my startup roles as an HR capacity is. I was the place they went to. And not to toot my own horn, but most said, you're the best HR person I've ever had because I listened. And I know it's not that other HR people aren't great. What's happening is they're just too busy, right? They're too busy or don't have the time to be able to give their employees the time. And yet isn't that what human resources should be doing is being a resource for the humans, being the person that's in charge of people and culture. That's not about benefits and payroll. Those are perks. Those are ancillary things. And there are things that easily outsourceable because they're tactical, transactional things, versus having a human that actually cares about the staff. So, you know what I tell startups is get your HR person early and get a person that matches your culture. What's your mission and vision for the company? And does that HR person speak to that in their interviews? Do they really understand the growth of an organization versus processing payroll? Should employers think about more ways to talk about if you need a mental health break? Right. Not just taking sick time. And we see so many companies doing unlimited pto, but you still have to plan ahead for that, right? When you use your pto, usually you have to ask for permission weeks in advance to be able to use that unlimited pto, which is a great value. But maybe there's a way to also say you also have days where you might just call in that day and say, I need to take a breather and allow that to be okay, without a stigma of this person needs a break. This person has hit the wall. And Mel's talked about that. She hit the wall. Sometimes we just hit the wall. No matter how much we plan and prepare, we just hit the wall. How great is it? It's a lot harder to pick yourself up after you slapped into a wall than if you can get the help before you've run into something hard. But to get some foundational basics on how to do some deep breathing exercises, how to drink more water, how to take a walk when you've, you know the next person that walks in your office you're going to freak out on. So giving people some of those tools earlier before they hit the wall. And startups are wall hitting all the time. They're just busy. It's just the nature of the beast. And get your HR person who meets your core values in sooner than later.

Jen, I have a question for you because I have some answers and examples I can give, but I'm just really curious how you can start to pinpoint these behaviors. Like what can leaders and founders and managers look for that they might not be thinking about?

Absolutely. I think easily simple stuff like is it taking forever for people to respond to emails? Sometimes. Sometimes doing the most basic task is exhausting. I know all of us have known somebody who dealt with mental health. Sometimes taking a shower is the hardest thing in the day to do. And I know when I talk to people who are battling, we go, I took a shower today. And we like cheer in the air. Because sometimes just the most basic things are the hardest things to do. So when you see someone who is always on top of it is now not answering emails as quick as they used to. People who are taking time off just kind of are arbitrarily and it's not planned and they're just needing more time away from the office, but they're not really talking to you about it. I would say unfortunately in the time of remote, we're not seeing each other in the office and we see someone whose office door is closed. But are they turning their camera on when they normally did? Are you getting to see their face and see what's going on? Do they look a little disheveled? You don't have to get beautified every single time you get on a zoom call. But you know when people's general personal health is starting to decline a little bit and just minor changes, somebody should be paying attention to that. And sometimes with startups we're so busy, someone's just not paying attention to that.

Absolutely. I've experienced that even before COVID But I would say where it was just convenient whether our company update meetings were in person or not, that a good employee just all of a sudden wasn't going Right. Because they were planned to speak but didn't want to or they didn't want to hear the update. And that was like the one time once a month. And so little things like that you do have to pay attention to because it's a very slippery slope. One thing that I've written about and talked about in the past is we, in our weekly standups we would do check ins but they were red, yellow, greens. And this is borrow from Jerry Colana, who's very famous personal development leader in the techstars world. And so it sounds like if the three of us are on a team and we're checking in. I just did this this morning with my new boss and it's like red, yellow, green and green's like you're firing on cylinders. There's nothing standing in your way, you know? Yes, today we were both green. Yesterday one of us was yellow, one of us was green with my team. That's where that actual tool of red, yellow, green created space for people on our team that wouldn't normally open up about anything personal, but because other people were doing it, it gave them permission to say, my uncle is really battling with his health right now. And then so you knew like, okay, so if this employee isn't firing on all cylinders, you weren't left thinking, assuming or other employees growing resentful towards that employee because maybe his head wasn't in the game that day. That tool, red, yellow, green, check ins once a week or however it works on your team. And you can Google it because lots of people have written articles about it, including myself. So that's one tool that has, has transformed our company culture over the last few years.

I was going to ask a good kind of follow up of that. Just like for managers and execs, what's the right way to set the culture to kind of ask, do you need help? Right. And it sounds like one. Just providing the red, yellow, green allows just for people to eventually share. Because sure, you could just lie and say green for a while until you feel comfortable. Yellow potentially. Are there other tactics that you see instead of just saying, hey, do you need to talk to someone when you start spotting people who are not turn their camera on anything else that we should be kind of suggesting for people to do?

Well, I think, and I'll talk about you a little bit, Mel, in that you were transparent with your team. You told them what you were going through. Now some of it they just witnessed whether you wanted them to see it or not. Right at the beginning when you were still in the office, some of this stuff hit pretty hard. Hard. And they kind of witnessed it. And yet also you kept staying transparent. You kept saying, hey, this is what I'm going through. You started the red, yellow, green and saying I'm red today or I'm yellow today. So instead of just throwing it out, let's play this game, everybody. It's like, let's start this process of checking in. I'm going to share today. I'm doing yellow. I this is why I'm feeling that way. Seems so simple, but yet just that transparency of the day's not going perfect for me. The day's not going great for me or the day is going great for me. And so I'm happy to share the wins for today. That allows other people to share. And so being the first person to be transparent about when things aren't working, it doesn't have to be what's going wrong with the company. Right. There's effective transparency that the employees do need to see. Some of that is your personal health. How are you feeling right now? And I would ask leaders to be more transparent than they probably are in how they're feeling that day.

Appropriate transparency is probably my. It's my most favoritest leadership phrase and term I've learned in the last decade. Because as a CEO then you're going transparent. Oh God. It's look for the leaders on the team now sometimes are there oversharing? Yeah, but guess what? I'd rather there be oversharing than not at all. Because you can correct that. You can course correct oversharing. Absolutely appropriate.

We love that one. Right? Appropriate transparency.

Yeah.

How about for the kind of brand new entrepreneurs who are, you know, maybe them and a co founder. Any tips we can be sharing with them to like set the stage right up front and manage that expectation with their co founder of. Here's the kind of culture we want to be transparent with each other, but also here's the culture we want to set for anyone to ask for help when they need it. That kind of thing.

Yeah. I think new founders, if you didn't know each other before, a lot of the things you should be talking about to avoid co founder conflict or team conflict is, you know, like your own personal burn. How much money does the company have in the bank if you haven't put any money in? You know, if you're a bootstrap startup, you might be pre revenue. If you're not and you have some cash in there, great. In the early days, you're probably not paying yourself I think founders being very in tune with what your other founders family life is and vice versa, right. So I've seen founders that were single and didn't have a lot of bills and then the other founders married and just had their first child and it's like there's a total disconnect of empathy and walking in someone else's shoes. I think those conversations need to be had right up front. Even before you sign your co founder agreements. Right. And your equity split. Then you're talking about money and goals and one of those should be not around the culture of transparency but like I guess well being, individual well being should be a part of the conversation, right? It's almost like dating, you know, what's your FICO score? What you should ask your co founder too. But it's almost like what's your well being score right now? I mean this should be common like why, why is there a FICO credit score? But we're not talking about what like what our current well being score is so that you can really understand what, what makes other people tick. That yeah, I like that idea. Maybe I'll brand something.

Yeah, I love it too. I'm in. Co founder, I'll do it with you.

What about the, you know, asking about a history of mental illness in your family, you know, is that where, where should the line be drawn on having that kind of conversation to preempt that, you know, five years from now expecting something to happen or something?

That's a good question.

I'm not trying to make it like a HIPAA kind of question or anything but it's like how can we get it in front of things as a co founder if they are going to be our business spouse? I don't know, just kind of something interesting to think through.

That's a really good question. I know because I know my current boss really well and my previous co founder was my husband. But when I think about even just the check ins I've done the last three days with my boss, we both have stuff going on in our lives, right? And I was like wow, we both know the red yellow green check in and so we just get to level set the day for each other without growing resentful. I mean that it's so crazy. I keep going back to that because it's like he, he knows exactly where I am, I know exactly where he is from like a mental capacity standpoint. And that that happens with red yellow green. Right now we're doing morning check ins at 8:30, so it's happening Every day because we're counterparts. And so I would almost say as new co founders and bless your heart, if you're a solopreneur, there's lots of communities out there like the lonely entrepreneur and startups.com, where if you're a solopreneur, you need to be plugged into a community. But if you have a founder, I would highly recommend that you're doing a daily check in with Red, Yellow, Green.

And making sure that it's a priority that no matter how busy you get, you make that time.

Yeah, well, you guys have both shared a lot of resources, so we'll make sure those are in the notes. But I want to take us to a little bit of the darker side of this conversation. You know, this is National Suicide Prevention Week. God forbid your team experiences tragedy. Let's talk a little about that coping. I was on, I was at a startup that that happened. We had someone on the team who committed suicide and I want to, I want to just talk through that. You know what, what can we do when that happens? What should we. If you don't have a gen already on your team, besides finding someone, take us through just the natural feelings that might happen. Maybe. Mel, if you're open to talking about it as a team and as a manager or an executive, what can we be doing?

Absolutely. Well, I think I have some facts up that I think a lot of people are not aware of. So the highest rate of suicide is in middle aged white men, typically between, you know, the ages of like late 20s to like early 40s. And so that's like a huge group that my brother fell in. And a lot of people don't know that. And that also happens to be a demographic of a lot of startup founders. So tying that into the startup world is really near and dear to my heart and making sure that well being conversations are like out in the front. I've coached and mentored a lot of startups and so that's always a big thing there. And roughly 48,000 people a year in the United States die from suicide. And they say that the bigger loss there is all the people that are left behind. Right. So it's the 10th leading cause of death in the US and it's completely preventable through research and education and resources. And so those are, you know, some of the stats I'm trying to get out. Also, startup founders are a lot more makeup and demographic of someone who can have anxiety, ADHD and depression, but they try to hide it because they're trying to start a company and raise money and look great. I think there's a lot that mentors and angel investors and venture capitalists in that whole world can be tuning into and being a support of this. I have a lot of early conversations around it. Some people are open to it, some aren't. So for me, it's really important, not only in my family and my friends. I've checked in a lot on friends this last year. The text will be hi, how are you? Which is also another nonprofit organization around mental health. And then they'll say, good. And then I'll email back or text back and say, no, how are you really doing? I had done that with my brother a bit. Right. But it's really important that people know that they have a voice. And right now I'm working with my local cities in Reno and Nevada around veterans and also first responders. So think of all the firefighters up in this region right now. And so I'm doing a lot of work to bring those programs. And then also schools. So there were late last year some pretty tragic losses at one of the top high schools here in Reno. And so there's these groups, whether it's veterans, first responders and schools and then startup founders, right. Like these are really four critical, crucial groups that need to be reached out to. And if there's anyone out there listening that is interested in getting involved, it's afsp.org so American foundation for suicideprevention.org, their education research policies. So I'm on the policy team getting things changed not only at the state level, but the national level. So there's lots of ways you can get involved. And there's also a lot of great resources on the AFSP website. So what do you do if you think you know someone? How do you talk to them? How do you get support after it happens? And so there's a ton of resources out there that were trickled to us slowly over time after we lost my brother. But now, you know, I'm just trying to be an advocate in honor of my brother and carry it forward so that no other half family has to go through what me and my mom and my dad and his little girl have been through. So yeah, that hopefully that answers your question. One of the greatest things that I saw was there is hope on the way. If a better help type app can get Michael Phelps to be their spokesperson. I will never forget the time that I saw his commercial. I'm like, hope is coming. And I focus on that, that white middle aged male, because that's like the biggest group. And I'm like, when there's more spokespeople, like the Michael Phelps of the world, that's when change is really going to happen. And you're starting to see that. And so I swear to God, I should write like a note to Michael Phelps because the Olympic gold winning swimmer for those who might not be an Olympic dork, like, I am. So, like, my secret wish is that male CEOs of big notable tech startups would like, be more open about this. So if you're out there and listening, me and Neil and Jen want to interview you and talk to you because that's really what it's going to take. Right? Even just to say, I have a therapist, me and my partner went to a therapist or I brought someone into my team. It's like, if you guys are doing that stuff, like, please email or tweet or Slack or whatever to any three of us because we want to hear your stories. We want to hear that that's happening because that's how it's going to help other people.

Mel, write that. Write that note to Michael Phelps on your blog whether you send it or not.

I'm going to. Yes.

Be a great blog article.

I'm doing that. Yeah. And come up with the mental health score, FICO equivalent.

Yeah.

You know, and check in with people, ask how they're doing and then take them out for tacos. Because we know tacos cure most things, that's for sure. And I'm going to round out our conversation here by ending on a taco note. Your favorite taco spots. Mel, you've. I know you gave one on a past episode. If you got a new one, maybe you found one in Reno. That's okay. We'd love to hear.

I'd love to taco about it.

Yes.

All day. Okay, guys, so I moved to Reno and I miss my Tijuana taco tours that my dear husband would plan for us. So we're struggling up here in Reno. Okay. There's not, there's not a lot, so. But the one that I miss the most in San Diego is Lola55. Hands down. Like if someone shipped me or postmates or I don't know how you would get it to Reno, but anyways, I don't know that I found it yet in Reno. So I will keep you posted. And if anyone listening has a recommendation.

For me startup nv, they might know. We'll ask him.

Yes, I know I should ask him.

Well, guys, this was a really important conversation. It all started really? From a post of yours, Mel, that pinged me to remind. Hey, we should have this. So thank you for being so outspoken about it. More of us should learn to be transparent like you. So thank you for inspiring me around that. Thank you guys both for the resources that you shared here and we'll make sure we'll share them in the show notes. And please anyone, like we all three have said, message us even if you need help and we'll connect the dots. Also, share your own stories with us as well too. We'd love to make this more of an ongoing conversation, so thank you both. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Bye.

Cheers.

Thanks for joining us on the Tacos and Tech podcast with Neil Bloom. Thanks again to Cox Business for helping make this possible by expanding the reach of the San Diego tech ecosystem. Big shout out to School of Rap for our rad intro music and this podcast is edited and mixed by Patrick Norton at citizenrecording.com you can find Neil Bloom on Twitter eelbloom and on LinkedIn as well as well as fresh brewed tech and tacos and Tech Pod on Twitter too.

Get the party started startups. Get the party startups. Get the party started. You want tech and tacos, tacos in tech. You know we got it.

Hey.