Providing Quality Apps and Helping Small Businesses Grow With Tom Kenney and Allen Wolff of Loyal Foundry

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You want tech and tacos, tacos and tech you know we got tacos and tech is on smash border green guacamole keeper captains counting beans Contador quentan frijoles found us trying to raise some queso la vida San Diego school of rappy rapping fire tortillas round jalapenos in these modern times a crappy my coding yoga posse fold the body origami we be surfing coronado eating tacos el gordo the tacos standing puesto lucha libre and sombrero got a shout out to cost angels by the ocean watch the sunset la Jolla shores Entrepreneurs trying to get funded when San Diego Startup Week is popping in the summer Oceanside, the Tijuana esti be full of hustlers from couch surfing to penthouses right on the beach Tech leaders believe stars are within reach we interview and founders who be shooting for the moon Hashtag SD techos with your host, Neil Bloom.

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Welcome to the Tacos and Tech Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Bloom, and I am thrilled to have you here on the Talkers and Tech podcast. We interview builders of technologies, of companies, of communities, and we do it weekly, so thanks for tuning in. Every Tuesday, a new interview and on Fridays, we talk about what's new in the San Diego tech ecosystem from a news perspective. So make sure you join us there as well too. We also have a tech newsletter that comes out every other week@freshbroodtech.com you can subscribe to listen to it without further ado. Enjoy this episode. I am thrilled to have two veteran tech entrepreneurs here on the channel with me today. Alan Wolfe, Tom Kenney, co founders of Loyal Foundry. Hey guys, welcome to the pod.

Good to be with you.

It's so great to have you here. I've been here in the community building with you guys for a while, been watching and impressed at the companies you guys have built. And now we'll get to talk about a new company you're working on, Loyal Foundry. Tom, you want to give us a quick overview of what you're working on now?

Yeah, absolutely. Alan and I and Ray Green, another local tech guy, founded a company called Loyal Foundry. And initially I would simple mobile app publisher and developer and then quickly, after doing some research in the marketplace place realize there's a a large consolidation opportunity. And so we're acquiring mobile apps and publishers around the globe.

That's huge. And feels like it's sped up even more during the pandemic where you've kind of got these micro PEs spinning up and, and buying up portfolios of companies. We invested in a marketplace for this microacquire, which I think we're going to touch on a little bit because it might be an avenue for you. But let's, let's get to know a little bit each of your background. Where'd you guys grow up? Alan, I think you mentioned D.C. area.

Yeah, yeah, sounds great. So yeah, I was born and raised right outside of D.C. in Maryland, and I went to Michigan for my undergrad. 20 years ago I opened a restaurant. I was finishing my mba and I went to work at a venture capital firm. Really wanted to learn the discipline of high growth investing and realized that it was better for me to be on the entrepreneurial side of the table. So I've spent the last 18 years in institutionally funded high growth companies, largely in the CFO seat and so co founded a payments company out of Denver called Pay simple, which now trades its ever commerce on the NASDAQ exchange. Was an early team member at Crowdrise, which GoFundMe acquired, you know, another San Diego company and then incubated a few companies, one of which is in the self checkout space in the POS and in the vending industry. I moved to Southern California actually. Tom recruited me and we'll chat about our backgrounds and how they overlap. And I spent almost seven years at Buzztime, which is the in venue entertainment solution, which I joined as CFO as my first foray into a publicly traded company. And I navigated that company as chairman and CEO through the pandemic and a reverse merger and a trade sale of the assets. And then had the good fortune to leap over and join Tom and Ray.

Oh, that's awesome. I didn't even make the connection with the other. Your other brother, Wolfs with Crowdrise.

He had no relation, but I know him from college as well as Crowdrise.

Oh, okay. That's super cool. That's a cool story in its own regard. San Diego, just as a home for nonprofit tech, is kind of interesting in that regard. Between Crowderize, GoFundMe and Classy all under one roof now. Which is kind of cool that you're a part of that story as well.

That's great to see.

Yeah, super interesting. All right, so Tom, take us back on your backstory and then we'll talk about the intersection of you two.

Oh yeah, great. So I grew up in Philadelphia, went to school at the University of Texas in Austin, and then followed a girl to dc. I was a finance major and I was lucky enough to hit DC when the mobile marketplace was taking off. Nokia had come into the market at&t. They were all buying Spectrum. I was enamored with the mobile device and the possibilities and I kind of lucked out. One of my friends was at a big startup called GO Communications and got me in there and early and I've been in that space ever since. And so I did that job finance. Young guy, learned a lot, went to another startup in mobile and then ultimately Nokia, which was a big investor in go, hired me in their corporate development group. And I spent eight years, eight to nine years with them. First in corporate development, doing M and A transactions around the globe and then in the venture capital group where Alan and I met. So Alan and I were young DCs running around the Mid Atlantic market looking for deals. We got along quite well sharing deal flow together. In 2005 I always wanted to start my own business. In 2005 I left Blue Run Ventures and started Verve, which is a location based ad platform. And in 2006 we moved Verve from D.C. washington D.C. to San Diego. My brother in law, Greg Hallonan was an investor and then I hired him as our initial cmo. He had started hiring folks here against my command and started building a little office. And finally we had more folks out here than we had in dc. So I, my wife and I really did love California. So we decided to come out and join him. And we ran Verve for 15 years. So 2005 we sold it to a German company in January of 2020 and then in February 2020 we incorporated Loyal. And you know, I was never going to leave the market. So we were excited to get going with Loyal Ray Green and I. Ray Greene, the other co founder, worked at VERB for about eight years, nine years.

Got it. Super cool. Interesting that you Both were in VC and pivoted out of VC at the time, like early 2000s. Was that kind of typical? Like it was like a stopping point for a lot of entrepreneurs to kind of see the other side. Or was it already kind of a career kind of role and you guys were just rebels?

That's a great question. Actually. I think when I left Verve, when I left Blue Run Ventures, I was all excited and then within a year I was like having a really hard time raising money. And then I was like what was I thinking? You know, a great job. And it was much harder than I thought it would be if I had known it was going to be as hard as it was to raise initial capital for verb I don't know.

I think my impetus was I'm. I'm somewhat of a serial entrepreneur and just an entrepreneur at heart and a student of entrepreneurship. And I felt like I could have more control of my destiny by being on the entrepreneurial side than on the investor side. And one of my mentors, you say to me, you know, it's not our job to run these companies. And I think that was my cue that, you know, I need to get over to the other side. I also saw that the discipline of high growth investing, there was so much opportunity to give people access. And I think that'll come back to the discussion when we talk about loyal. But at Paid simple, we had 72 shareholders. I think Verve had a lot of shareholders from my grandma that invested, you know, about 20 grand to a buddy that invested a million dollars. So I think, like, you know, this was before angellist. The opportunity to give people investment opportunities and high growth, credible, you know, trustworthy companies, I think was a really strong, compelling desire of mine on the entrepreneurial side.

Interesting. And you both were in it before mobile was a thing. Well, mobile was very different then, I guess. IPhone changed the world. And you guys have spent significant amount of time in the app space since. Tom, you want to take us through a little bit of the arc of, like, apps, what the world is like for mobile apps and why you're so enamored.

I was a mobile fanatic from day one. I used to, I tell people early on when, you know, it was pagers, they really didn't have phones yet. They had those big boxes you could have, but they also had car phones. And I literally was driving around D.C. i had a. I was young, I had no money. I had a $400 Honda Civic that my roommate traded gave me for my cowboy boots, and I had a $400 car phone, you know, and I was crazy about it. I used to call people and it was like $3aminute. And I'd be like, hey, how's it going? I gotta go. I just let them know I had a car phone. So I was. I couldn't get enough of it, you know, and I was really lucky. I mean, honestly, pure luck to be in D.C. when it was all formulating and coming together. And so I had always wanted to start my own company. I had a lot of ideas. I was always coming up with business ideas. And then I'd been in Nokia so long. And I realized, like, if I'm ever going to do it, the time, it's now. And honestly, that's why I left. I was like, you know, if I stay here any longer, I'm not going to leave. And I really do want to, you know, create something. And so when I left Verve, or when I left Blue run, it was 2005, and I honestly felt like I had a good team with me. I had a. I had, like. Our CTO was in the Nokia Research center, had developed Nokia's browser. Right. Like, I had this, like, incredible team, and I felt like this is going to be really easy to raise a lot of money and start this company. And I was. I was deep into the idea of location being really powerful for local businesses of advertising, marketing, et cetera. And I Remember running around D.C. presenting, presenting the plan, and people saying, that'll never, ever happen, you know, ever. And I'm like, are you kidding me, dude? Like, what? And there will never be an ad on this phone. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is gonna be a lot harder than I thought. So, like, the first four years of Verve was really difficult, you know, and, like, I saw it clearly, and you would be shocked how many people were just like, that'll never happen. Like, it was really interesting.

Yeah. And then the iPhone comes out and changes everything, and ads are everywhere now.

The iPhone was. The iPhone changed everything. We just did a posting on our LinkedIn page about thanking Steve Jobs, you know, I credit Steve Jobs and ATT, you know, AT&T. Like, let them do it, you know, and said, yeah, come on in. Do this. This could be a big deal. I remember I was a Nokia snob, so I held off getting an iPhone for a long time. And everyone around me is like, you're crazy. This is a great device. So I finally broke down and I went to the Apple Store and bought one, and I came back to my office in Encinitas at Verve, and I pulled it out of the box, I turned it on, it worked incredibly out of the gate. I was, like, surfing everywhere on the web, and I called my buddies at Nokia. I'm like, you guys are toast. Like, you are toast. And if I was like, if these guys start building apps, it's all over. And, you know, I haven't been off the iPhone ever since. You know, it's a magical device.

So take us through kind of wrapping up with Verve. Like, what did. Obviously, first of all, 15 years to build a business is like, you know, for some startup founders, they think they're going to build and sell. Most people now who have done it a few times realize, no, it is like a 10 year plus arc from start to finish. And that's the thing. Did you always have an end goal in mind? Like, and what was the mobile world looking like that it was the right time to sell when you did?

Yeah. So it was a long run. And ad tech is hard. Ad tech is really hard. I loved what we built. We built, built some amazing technology. We had like 18 patents. We were like the kings at location. We were like a location service inside ad tech. And ad tech kind of, kind of swamped us a bit. I always would tell people, they'd be like, oh my God, that's a great idea. You're going to be rich. And I go, or poor. Like literally it's a coin flip. It's either one. And I never felt through the whole 15 years like I was going to be either one. I felt like tomorrow could be ugly, the next day could be great, you know, and it was a, a really hectic up and down ride. I will tell you. It's all I did. Like it consumes you, right? Especially as like the founder and kind of the main idea guy driving it. And I love that. I love mobile, so I loved it. But it's all you do, is all you think about. It's like, okay, how do I improve this company? How do I make things better? So it was a long ride. I, I stay, I was committed all the way I go. We're going to see this. Wherever it leads us, we're going to take it. And this is a great technology, it's a great platform. I wanted, I want to find an owner for it. We were lucky. We found a great company out of Germany that was buying up ad tech and we were able to hand it over. And then when we sold it, we had like 100 employees. I think 60 are still there. The business verve is growing like crazy. It's bigger than when we ran it. It's up to like 150 million a year in revenues. The best we had done was 100, 106 million one year. So it's exciting to see where it ended. I'm happy to be out of ad tech though. Ad tech, that's a tough industry and I'm really happy about what we're doing at loyal. One of the things I was always jealous of publishers at loyalty. Because every morning our publishing partners woke up and they had 100% margin to work with. Right. And every morning I was Lucky if I had 45% margin to work with, you know, and we had employees all over the globe and engineers and everything else. And so I really admired publishers and kind of what they were creating and how they took it to market and the leverage and ultimately the value that they were able to build and sustain. So it was, it was always obvious where we wanted to go, Ray and I, you know, after Verve got it.

And that brings in Alan pretty well. Because you were a publisher making, making games, it is that where you know, and you guys were both in Carlsbad based, both your companies at one point, right?

Yeah. I mean what's nice about our connection relationship is we stayed in touch over the 20 year horizon and really continued to, I think, foster that spirit in terms of what these platforms could do, how you'd go about building a company, making sure that you, you know, balance the growth with the scalability and the efficiencies that you want. And I think that joining Tom and Ray and this experienced team, what's nice is the platforms are mature, but from an M and A perspective, they're very immature outside of gaming. And so we have key categories that we focus on and we can share those and talk about them with you. And they're very targeted. And we feel like it's a very opportunistic time that these publishers with a lot of the changes that are coming down the pipe in terms of how the platforms are viewing privacy, it makes sense to be a part of a platform with scale and I say to be part of a platform with scale by either selling your property and moving on to do something else, you know, giving you freedom or joining us. And we think that a lot of our M and A activity will lead to internal teams and category expertise that we'll acquire through, you know, the portfolios of apps that we purchase.

So take us through that a little bit. Like what is, what's the world going through right now in terms of apps? Obviously what. We've been at it for 13 years since the Apple's been out, millions of apps have been created. Plus obviously Google Play Store, like what's the current atmosphere of just like what apps are? Can people just buy, build an app and push it or you have to. I mean there's gotta be a bunch of nuances now to build an app compared to where we were in the beginning days.

Yeah, I mean Apple and Google have built like amazing infrastructure globally. Right. What they've enabled is really truly amazing. It's very similar to what Amazon is enabled for third party Retailers and what's going on and what we're doing is similar to what's happening on in that market as far as consolidation. They have built a platform that makes it very easy for a developer to build something very specific and get it out in front of, you know, I think it's like 5 billion people or 4 billion people, like overnight. It's truly amazing. And make money off of it. Right? There's 6 million apps currently and there's 2 million developers. That's how fragmented this market is. And there's big changes coming down. So. So what got us thinking about consolidation was from our own perspective, you know, we need to think about getting to scale as quickly as possible so that we can protect ourselves when some of these larger macro changes happen. And you're seeing one right now where Apple is getting rid of ad IDs and for privacy purposes. And Google just came out today, said they're going to do the same thing. Now that. That is a big deal. You know, people used to ask me a berv what happens if that. If they get rid of the ad IDs and I'm like, it's not good. You know, it's. There's really important pieces of the, you know, the ecosystem. You know, things are going to change, you know, dramatically. I don't know what to tell you, what else to tell you. And so you saw Facebook lose 200.

Billion in market cap because of it, right?

Yeah, no, it's dramatic. It's traumatic because you. There's. You can't do it. It's really hard to do stuff like right now, advertising is so precise and so accurate. And then you can also tell just from, you know, on the back end how well your campaigns are performing. So it's really an amazing system that people built. But then it also. There's a lot of fraud. That's the one thing I hated about ad tech. There was so much fraud all over the place. And it's really hard to kind of get above the fray if you're not a large global brand that people respect and like. So from our own perspective, you know, we like the ad market. We helped publishers. We worked with over 100,000 apps at Verve on our network. And so we love that model and helping them. And so we were like, okay, can we get to scale quickly? That started this whole series of conversations with mobile app developers and publishers. And then we started learning about how well a lot of these guys are doing because of the subscription model that came out in 2017 and 18 that you know, we were ad based so we weren't following what was happening at the granular level with subscription models. And we were blown away like, oh my God, these app guys are doing pretty good. They're making like 65% net incomes in many cases without, with minimal work. You know, got a nice app and a nice category and it, and it does really well organically. And so then we would talk to them about like, hey, what are you going to do when this changes? And they're like what? Like, they're like, I didn't know what you're talking about. And so we realized there's, there is an opportunity to, to help publishers, little guys that want access in our categories that we're focused on. Alan had mentioned that gaming is an evolved part of the marketplace. And quite honestly, gaming drove the marketplace forever. You know, probably the first 10 years making up 75% of everything, downloads, revenues, engagement. But since subscription started taking off, the other parts of the market have really started to grow very fast. And so that's the area that we play in. And since the pandemic those areas have actually even increased even more. You know, 20, 25% year over year growth. So in that part of the market, the non gaming there aren't companies like loyal, you know, trying to grow scale, to protect themselves and build a better platform and providing exits. Right. So I felt like this is actually a really unique opportunity and given the folks that we know, we have a team of 14 already, 10 of them worked at Verve for like 10 years. And so I'm bringing in a crew that helped build all these amazing systems and platforms around the globe. And we know how to work with publishers, we know how to work with apps, we know how to build apps. At one point, you know, early on we built one of the first 10 news apps, AP News, which is still a big app. At one point we were managing over 10,000 plus apps for publishers that we helped build. And so I was like, we can do a good job here and we can provide a lot of exit opportunities for a lot of small developers that you know, are looking for the net. What are we going to do next? Right. So we pulled the team together, we're building out the systems and we've already started acquiring stuff. It's very exciting.

That's super exciting. And Alan, you kind of been on both sides of the table now in a sense. Like you navigated a gaming app and selling it during the pandemic and now you're on the other side buying those apps. Like what's that experience like for you?

Yeah.

And I think what's fascinating to me, as Khan mentioned, you know, you build on one of these platforms, you have immediate access to scale. And so part of the challenge with the environment I came from is we were always trying to get a larger network. And so if you flip it around and you build something that's completely mobile, I think that, you know what's interesting about this market segmentation, as Tom said, there's, there's opportunities on the advertising based model, but the subscription economy within the Apple and Google Store is really new. You know, it's less than 10 years old and just as we saw with a lot of SaaS, platforms that came to light over the last 15 years that allowed business owners to manage their business in different ways. Whether it's establishing payments or CRM technology with Constant Contact or QuickBooks Online. You know, you can go set up, you're up and running with QuickBooks online for $19 a month immediately. What we're seeing is that there's so many tools available for individual content creators, for freelance workers. And so we see is this, as Tom said, these I'll say, feature rich categories and a fragmented market that really allow us to ingest them and then optimize them and leverage the scale of the portfolio together. So it's very exciting for me to like to your point, to get to the other side here and be something that's totally mobile, really has global reach and allows us to look at, you know, I think very targeted categories are very specific. Casual gaming content and photo video editing, sports and news information, phone utilities and health and fitness. And those are our primary categories that we're going after that will really allow us to build a diverse portfolio and allow publishers that want to join us along the way too to really, you know, exert their influence and be part of a larger ecosystem as they join the community.

It's really cool. Take us through. For developers who are listening to this, publishers as well, like what's the sweet spot for them? What should they be building towards for metrics to kind of build to sale? What's in your sweet spot for what you're looking for?

It's a great question. Maybe Tom, I'll give you a few points from my side and then you go ahead as well. So I think one of the things is an attractive category, I think making sure that you're in a category that when you launch you can get organic success and the performance of your app as well. And it's a very crowded industry, you know, the App stores. Tom mentioned 6 million apps. And so I think attractive category, organic success. The next thing is high engagement and high ratings. So we look at apps that really are successful with the customers that download and use them have high ratings and high engagement on their apps. And the last thing that we look at is profitable. We want apps that are profitable that have really shown that they can achieve downloads, you know, largely organically. We're not, we're okay with paid spend, but we don't want to be 100% on paid spend. And the reason why is the combination of those three allow us to understand and evaluate the growth potential. So if somebody's too weighted on page spend, we know there's limited growth potential. If they have great organic success, high engagement, and they're profitable, we know we can optimize and energize that growth by layering in paid spend to that app when we acquire it and put it into our system.

Anything else?

Yeah, Alan covered most of it. I would just add that we like apps that are live in the Apple Store. Apple has a higher bar of acceptance and so that they handle a lot of the diligence that we would have to do. Whereas Google's much easier to go live with. Google likes anyone to get in and get it up and running. Apple curates their store and so they, you know, they won't let like thousandth of something in. They start cutting off over subcategories. So we like that a lot. And I think Alan covered the rest really well.

So from your end, for searching for apps and maybe whole portfolios to buy, is there publicly available information and sites that kind of kick off these statistics or you have to kind of go knocking on doors and saying, hey, are you interested?

Are you for sale?

How do you, how do you go about it?

Yeah, that's great.

So we have, we're building out a database. You know, there's 6 million apps right now. We're, we're following 40,000 publishers. So probably like, I think it's, you know, 40,000, it's probably like a million apps that we're following right now. And so that's been a really healthy database to start with. And so we've been curating that and identifying potential targets and reaching out to them, we're having some success. I'd say one out of like six or seven emails, we get a response saying, yeah, we'd like to talk to you. And then there's a lot of services like you mentioned, Microacquire. I was on there for about an hour and a half today going back and forth with publishers from around the globe. There's a bunch of brokers that have popped up to support the consolidation e commerce space and now they're starting to get some app publishers and so they've been a decent source. There's a company called Flippa out of Australia that has a lot of little things and we like little apps too. If it's a really well built app and high quality, we're all for bringing it on because we can bring it on on board and manage it quite easily and grow it. So there, there's definitely a lot of different sources and it's always easier to buy something that's for sale than it is to entice someone who hasn't really thought about a sale yet.

Absolutely. And I actually worked with the Flipa co founder Matt Mikkiewicz@hired.com so is fun to be a part of both of those marketplaces and finding new relevance and pieces there. Take us through. Are you going to is the whole goal to buy and buy and hold and own the largest portfolio of apps or are you kind of building to optimize to then take these to the next level and sell them again? Maybe to you know, I mean we're open.

I think that you know, we have a growth playbook and I'll say that it all starts with adding value. Right. So give publishers that want an exit or publishers that want to join a larger umbrella the opportunity to join us. And it's our growth playbook is bubble. So double average revenue per user, double downloads, double engagement. And so I think it all starts with, you know, adding, starting, building scale, adding the value to the properties that we acquire and then on a case by case basis determining what's the best use of that asset. So from time to time we might build an asset and decide that it has a better home somewhere else. And then our opportunity I think though is to build a long term company of sustainable value. And so I think that we're all in this to build a great culture, be committed, you know, primarily in the San Diego area is where the majority of our team will be, which is great. As Tom said, most of them, you know, we worked it in the past and we want to build a great environment, embraces hybrid, you know, work from home environment and allow people really to impact the products that we buy, add great value to the people that we touch. And really this tagline we've come up with is essential apps for an essential life. And really like looking at all the apps I'll give you an example. Our first portfolio is just over 150 apps in the sports and news information space. And it's called News Fusion. And it really allows you to almost like the old, you know, customize your book type of journey that we read as a kid. It allows you to customize your news experience so you can have science news or crypto news, or you can actually go in and, and get news pushed to you in certain areas. And so I think, like, that's a great asset that we have and foundation, one of the foundational, you know, app portfolios we acquired that we're going to continue to build upon. And ultimately we think we can grow those users and it'll be part of the portfolio and, you know, allow the team to. Allow it to mature and have an impact on the lives that we touch with the users.

Congrats on that. It's super cool what you guys have built, the experiences, the teams coming together to kind of build the next generation of where apps go, because obviously, 6 million, like you said, it's got to consolidate, but finding a good home for them and finding use and utilization, because everyone, that's what everyone wanted, right? Everyone wanted to build an app that someone used and utilized.

It's interesting, Neil. We're. We're incubating a few app ideas on our own as well. So we have three apps under development as well. So we're, you know, kind of dogs got like the dog food, right, these apps. One of the things that we're evaluating is what's the time and the level of effort to build our own app and bring it to life versus actually going through a process of, as Tom said, leveraging one of the platforms, Microacquire, which is great. Finding it, you know, a publisher that's put a lot of heart and soul into building something and taking it over from them. And so it'll be an interesting test for us over the first, you know, few months. I would say a majority, a high majority of our asset and our, you know, capital will go to acquiring assets. But we're also going to be sensitive that, hey, we're going to build some on our own and, and make sure that we know what the publishers that we're talking to go with to, to bring an app from inception to going live and hopefully grow.

Very cool. Well, loyal Foundry here in San Diego, I was going to have a big city team and the team's got to eat, just like you guys did, too. You have a favorite taco spot, Tom, what's yours?

Yeah, mine is Las Olos in Cardiff. That's where I have all my lunch meetings.

Oh, yeah, good one.

Can't beat that one. How about you?

Yeah. Rudy's taco shop on La Costa Avenue right there. Hard shell tacos are my favorite.

Ooh, good one. Solid. Well, I know where to have our business meetings next time we get together then. Cheers, guys. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. Congrats.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you.

On Loyal, I think you got to get like a San Diego loyal to soccer team. And you guys like a partnership as well too. We got two loyals in San Diego.

Here I had created loyal name, Loyal Foundry and all that. And then a week later, I see San Diego loyal. I'm like, oh, my God.

Like, I had already incorporated it, got the logo.

I was like, it was so weird. And I was like, oh, my God, that's so weird.

Serendipitous. Well, it's another investment of ours as well. We're invested in the loyal, so love seeing it here in San Diego. And congrats, guys, and excited for hearing what's next. So thanks for being on the pod.

Thanks. Thanks, Neil. That was awesome.

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