Providing Safer Skies With Grant Jordan of Skysafe

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Welcome to the Tacos and Tech podcast. I'm your host, Neil Bloom, and I'm thrilled to have you here. On the Tacos and Tech podcast, we interview builders of technologies, of companies, of communities, and we do it weekly. So thanks for tuning in. Every Tuesday, a new interview and on Fridays we talk about what's new in the San Diego tech ecosystem from a news perspective. So make sure you join us there as well too. We also have a tech newsletter that comes out every other week@freshbroodtech.com you can subscribe to listen to it without further ado. Enjoy this episode. Thrilled to be joined by Grant Jordan, CEO and co founder of SkySafe. Hey Grant, thanks for being on the podcast.

Hey, yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's good to see you and catch up. It's been quite a few years. A whole pandemic and a half. I think we first connected at a cool company's event, like maybe 2016 or 17. When were you first a cool company? By Samuel Venture?

Either 16 or 17 for sure.

Okay, awesome. Well, you want to give us a quick one minute overview of what skysafe is?

Yeah, absolutely. So we're a San Diego based counter drone company and really what counter drone means, it's all about keeping drones out of places they're not supposed to be. So whether that's prisons, stadiums, airports, military environment, Border protection, all kinds of places. And I also like to talk about, you know, I think a lot of people hear counter drone and they think like, oh, no, we're against drones. And it's really the exact opposite. You know, we're looking to encourage and enable the commercial drone industry. It's about having rules of the road and enforcement mechanisms so that we can have the good things out of drones, have the inspection and delivery and all of these great things. But you can't have that if you don't have people following the rules and ways to actually enforce them. So that's kind of where we focus on.

Awesome. Well, what a relevant topic to be having right now when drones are unfortunately being seen so much in the war that's going on in Ukraine against that backdrop, but also to the good commercial proliferation that's coming in everything else of the world. So we're going to have a good conversation about that. But I want to get to know how you fell into drones. Where'd you grow up? How'd you end up in this crazy tech world?

Yeah, yeah. So I grew up in Central California, in Fresno. Went to school for undergrad at mit. And then what got me into the defense space was after mit, I was an Air Force officer for four years. So I worked in the Air Force research lab doing small UAV systems and counter IED sensor systems. So I got to see firsthand a lot of the issues of technology and issues of drones in these different spaces. I think obviously the DoD was both the first adopters of small drones, but also the first to see their, their capabilities and their dangers. So that was some of the stuff I worked on while I was there. My, my shop, we were involved in some of the DOD's early counter drone testing, basically testing out all different kinds of systems that could be used to take down small drones and protect forces. You know, literally everything from what you would normally think of as, you know, bullets, missiles, things shooting stuff out of the sky, but also giant laser systems and jammers and radar systems and all kinds of stuff, and really got to understand what works and what doesn't.

Fascinating. Did you always want to go the defense route because, you know, a lot of electrical engineers and I'm guessing a lot of your classmates didn't end up as a military officer. How did you, how are you leaning towards that?

Yeah. Well, the answer is pretty simple. They paid for school for me. They straight up paid for five years of MIT for me. And then I went and did my service with them. And then after I left the Air Force. Came out here to San Diego, where I am now to go to grad school at UCSD in the computer science department doing security and cryptography. I was part of the security and cryptography group there under Stefan Savage. An amazing group doing incredible security work. So we looked at all sorts of crazy stuff of botnets and underground criminal economies and all sorts of diverse things. You know, I think for me, that's always the draw is, you know, just totally different types of challenges and problems. And the security world is just full of weird stuff all over the place. So that's what's always gotten me into it.

Got it. Fascinating. So the drone world, which has gone through a lot of names like UAVs, not really, it seems like, not really used anymore. I don't. And now drones and other things, like take us through how you've seen the evolution of just that world from student to military to now building a company in it.

Yeah, you know, that's a great point. I mean, just the evolution of the drone space. I think the biggest, most amazing thing in the drone space is just how quickly the level of capability has evolved and the cost has gone down. Sort of like any space, really in tech, but in the drone space. When I was in the Air Force, when we were thinking about what is a small drone and what are the concerns we have to think about with small drones, the DOD at that time was really thinking about a small drone. Not in the sense of, oh, you can just buy one off the shelf. Even then, this was around 2008, 2009. In that day, what was considered a small off the shelf drone was like a $50,000 piece of military hardware. And it was small and it was portable, and it was in the scope of defense systems, very inexpensive. But it's still $50,000. We weren't talking about a small DJI drone off the shelf. And just a few years later, we're talking about thousand dollars drones off the shelf that really eclipse the capabilities of those defense drones that we would have been looking at 10 years prior. It's really amazing. You know, I think one of the funny things, being a counter drone company, we essentially look at every single drone on the market. We try to own every single drone on the market. So we have a massive drone fleet. We try to have nearly every model of every drone that every manufacturer has built. I often joke that we really need to start a side business of being a drone, unboxing and reviewing, like YouTube channel, because we literally, we buy them and fly them as soon as they come out for every single model. So I think that's our pivot. If, if the counter drone world doesn't, we'll, you know, maybe we'll, we'll collaborate with you. We'll do a podcast about it. It'll be great.

Yeah. Once Apple builds into that, the standard software that just like drones don't happen in a certain geo, of course, like they did to Facebook, just turn off certain things. Yeah. That's your next thing. Absolutely. Exactly.

Exactly. But that's the amazing thing is watching even just over the last five years, watching each new generation of drone come out from each manufacturer, each one, each new drone is just like a whole step up in capability and ease of use, low cost. I think when we first started, drones were still a lot closer to manually flying like an RC plane.

Right.

It took some level of operator skills. It took really being on top of things and like watching where that drone was and moving the sticks manually. But then I think the tipping point was somewhere around probably like 2017 or so, I think the models of drone that started to come out, they started being able to integrate a lot more different types of sensors, a lot more types of kind of active control on the drone side, where suddenly you had a lot more. Like you had ultrasonic sensors added so that it could judge its distance from objects around it. You had optical sensors all around it, where you've got some of the current best drones on the market today. Like you look at the drones built by Skydio, right, And they're running fully autonomously. They're running machine vision on board, and it's essentially covered in cameras. It's got cameras 360 all the way around on all sides, and it's visually mapping the environment and it's reacting in real time to that environment in ways that are just amazing. Current drones, like the skydio drone. I love what skydio has done just as far as, you know, different drones and manufacturers and stuff, they were really focused on the autonomy side and the machine vision side, to the point where, you know, with the skydio drone, you just, you tap on a person and it just follows that person. It flies around perfectly, cinematically. It's just beautiful and it's incredible. And I think in all of these areas of technology, I think the exciting thing is when something moves from being a tool that specialized, highly trained operators can use to being a tool that just about anybody can start using, I think that's when you start seeing, like the creativity come out and the use cases you would have never thought of before.

Absolutely. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head on the RC part. When we started the UAV Club At UCSD in 2006, we were taking the AIAA's RC plane competition. We were marrying it with a $15,000 autopilot from NASA that we had to like beg them to kind of loan us or sponsor. And then we still had to build the plane kind of out of like balsa and other things and integrate this somehow be. Integrate this really smart computer with like a terrible built wood box. Right? Yeah. So it's come super far, which is super interesting. On the flip side, the enter, let's call it Enterprise and San Diego is part of this Northrop and General Atomic Building. I think they're called drones as well too. Like some of the largest autonomous flying planes. How do they fit into this world? Like that class of drone or uav?

Yeah, well, it's true in some sense. The word drone isn't very specific. It's not very useful. It's just like us saying computer.

Right?

Like, what does computer mean? Is it the chip on your watch or is it a massive mainframe in the cloud? Like, it's, it's crazy. So, yeah, I mean, I think drone as a whole or kind of UAV or uas, whatever you want to call it. I think the bigger thing to me is kind of where it fits into aviation and mobility in the long term. You've got the large scale UAVs like you're talking about with things like Predator and Reaper and Global Hawk. I think I. I would encourage anybody who has not seen how big a Global Hawk really is, like, pull up a picture online and see it in context next to humans or next to another normal aircraft that you understand the size of. Because I think, I think everybody rec. Everybody thinks of drones at kind of the scale of like Predator and stuff, which is like kind of a bit bigger than a Cessna. It's like a small plane, whatever. But you see a Global Hawk, it is massive. It's like nearly the size of a 737 or something. It's huge. And because you don't have all of these human elements, like little windows and stuff, you have no sense of scale when you're just seeing photos of them. But I think we're really just on the cusp of everything that the autonomous flight space can give us. I think we've got so much potential in deliveries and inspection. And I think the really exciting stuff in the drone space are when we get past thinking about a drone as an individual tool to be used by an operator and more thinking about how can they be used at scale where once you can break that link of one drone to one pilot, suddenly all sorts of things become possible that weren't possible before. Think a while ago, I think it was Jonathan Downey of at that time, airware that I remember mentioning a little story talking about insurance, like claims adjusters and using drones for inspecting roofs. And he was saying that when you're still just using a drone as a tool for an inspector, a drone is just a taller ladder.

Right.

It's like your inspector still shows up to the house, he still has to unpack his tools and do the thing. And whether he's using a ladder to climb on top of the roof or a drone to fly above the roof, it's still kind of the same operation. You're still doing the same thing. If you can get past this point of a drone as an individual tool for an individual operator and instead think about it as like, oh, we don't even need to send a person out to a place. We just have fleets of drones that fly to the place, do the inspection, fly back fully autonomously. Or maybe even it changes the entire dynamic of the industry where maybe I can just have those drones inspecting those roofs regularly over and over again. Maybe it's not just that I do an inspection after a massive hail storm. Maybe it's just all the time. So. And where we have it, we've barely hit on those sorts of applications of large scale drone adoption. You know, thinking about drones more as this like constant set of systems that can operate beyond visual line of sight at night and be like integrated into the national airspace in these kind of more natural ways.

I think he's kind of hit on or you're interesting the piece around like it's really a sensor package, right. It's a way to collect a whole bunch of data streams. But the scale part, I think what's interesting to see where it's come out right now, like the 3 to 500 drone light shows, right. That happen in or something like that.

Really cool.

That's a very commercial application. So take us through a little bit. Kind of the genesis of SkySafe, like what was the original idea? When did it actually come and how did you start to ideate and turn into to Then when you pulled the band aid off and said, I'm all in.

Yeah. So we started thinking about this problem, my co founders and I, around 2015. And at the time we were actually running our own small security consulting firm. We were doing Kind of. We, you know, we're all from the security world. We're a group of like reverse engineers and hardware exploitation kind of people. So that's what we were doing in that world for a number of years, looking at like, the security of IoT devices and things like that. So around 2015 or so, we really saw the rise in the drone industry in small, off the shelf consumer drones. And we, being security people, immediately queued onto, wow, this could actually be, you know, a danger, this could be a concern. It really becomes the wild west pretty quickly when just like anybody can buy a drone off the shelf and fly it wherever they want, whether that's an airport or lots of other places, they really shouldn't be doing that. So at that time we kind of saw this rising issue and we thought, wow, like, we could apply the same skills we've been doing in these different diverse sort of hardware security areas, apply them specifically to drones. So talking more of kind of the startup mechanics, we actually approached it. We were luckily able to approach it from a little bit of a different direction, I think, than a lot of startups. We were already running our own small shop that was funded ourselves and that was profitable. So we basically started the whole counter drone thing as an internal R and D project to prove to ourselves that we could actually do it, that we could build a system that could be detecting drones and taking down drones, doing mitigation. And so once we had that proof of concept, then we basically proved to ourselves that, okay, this is going to be a real thing. And we were pretty confident there was going to be a need for it, a market for it, and that this rising drone thing was going to have dangers involved. So that's when we formed skysafe. We basically formed that as a new company. You know, our first outside money was actually our Series a, which was 3 million, led by Andreessen Horowitz back in 2016. So, yeah, I mean, for us it was a. It felt like a pretty natural progression, a pretty natural story. And we felt like between our security background and my background in the Air Force, we felt like we understood the problems pretty well. I think one of the funny things for me, right when we started, I didn't see myself as that big of a drone expert, but I think it was funny going out and talking in the tech world with other folks and with investors and whatnot. I realized pretty quick that my experience, because I had experience on the military side with small drones and test events, doing all these things, like, compared to just the average person, I Had way more experience than I even realized because it was just natural to me, like having been in the Air Force and working with these small drones. Like, yeah, of course, like I've flown lots of different small drones. And you know, at that time, in like 2015, 2016, like that was not the case. You know, I think the start of the drone industry was really the only people with experience were either longtime RC hobbyists who'd been flying RC things forever, or people with military experience with small drones. That was kind of it because the consumer drone space was so, so thin at that time. Interesting.

So take us through from first outside funding, which is kind of a pretty big validation mark, especially Andreessen Horowitz. You know, that feels even like a pretty early bet for them. But I'm not, you know, compared to where they feel like they are now, funding wise.

Yeah.

Where kind of take us through the progression of. To where the company is today.

Yeah, well, and it's funny. And also I gotta say, we were Andreessen's first San Diego investment ever. So I was pretty excited about that at the time. And I think the really the startup world, both in San Diego and in general, has progressed a lot since then. You know, in 20, 20, 15, 2016, when I was raising that round, we still got the question every single time of, are you going to move to the Bay Area? Are you going to move your team to sf? And every time I said, no, we're not planning on doing that. There's not really any reason to do that. And I said, I think there is enough talent here. I think San Diego is a great place. It's both a great place to live and to work and to recruit from. But also, I've never found it hard to convince people to move to San Diego. It's a pretty pretty EAS Z cell versus a lot of other potential places. And I think especially early on, we found that. I don't know quite the right way to say it, but maybe, you know, loyalty is much higher in San Diego than in the Bay Area. I think, you know, the folks that joined us, I would say that the average tenure at SkySafe is three years, maybe four. I mean, you know, when people join us to work with us, they generally work for us for a very long time and they stick around. You know, they don't. I think in the San Diego tech world in general, I think there's a lot less kind of just immediate company hopping one year, one year, one year that you see a little bit more of in the Bay Area. But. But yeah, you know, that, that progression for us, as we grew and as we kind of found product market fit, it was relatively natural. It definitely was. You know, the space has changed so much since then. I think we were one of the very first kind of counter drone companies to really raise money. I think there were maybe one or two others also in 2016 that raised money, but there was really nothing before that. And one of the funny things is back at that time, you know, I think a lot of investors were still kind of trying to wrap their heads around the drone industry as a whole and investing in drones. And then here I am pitching kind of a, maybe a second order bet on. Okay, you have to assume that the drone industry is going to be a thing, and then you have to assume that there needs to be a counter drone industry around that. So that definitely took some convincing, but now it's just assumed, right, Because I think people have seen all of these second level effects of having lots of commercial drone, lots of consumer and commercial drones out there. We've seen incidents with airports, right? In 2018, there was this really crazy incident at the Gatwick Airport in London where they had a drone that was flying over their Runway. They had to stop all flight operations, and that disrupted flights for a day and a half. They apparently lost about $65 million over that day and a half, just from what seems to be a single drone disrupting flights. But the key problem that they had was it's one thing to get the report of a drone flying over the airport and you play it safe, you stop flight operations. But then the question is, how do you decide that it's safe to resume flying? What do you need to know before then? If you don't ever actually physically catch that drone, then how do you know it's. Is the drone there still? Is it gone? Has it come back? Were there multiple drones? If you don't have the information about that, just how do you make that decision? And a while ago I talked to the guy who was the head of their flight security operations there at the time. And I can't imagine being in his shoes, being the one who has to say, yes, it's safe to fly again, it's nuts. And so that's now, you know, fast forwarding a few years here we've had, we have systems running at international airports around the world. And the biggest thing that we provide to those airports is that what level of airspace awareness of knowing whether the drone is there or not, whether it's gone, and helping to Identify not just the drone itself, but also where the operator is so that they can have airport police or security go respond to that, confront the operator, have them land the drone, confiscate it, actually know that the incident has concluded that they're safe to fly. Again, um, I think that's the big thing. So with our work, our system changes a situation like that from a 33 hour flight disruption to a 15 minute flight disruption. You may still have to pause flight operations, but you'll be able to actually resolve it. You'll be able to do something. And I think that's, that's what all of these sorts of groups need, and that's what we need to be able to. The other thing too, like I talked about earlier, about enabling the commercial drone industry, when you think about something like airports, our airport customers, they're now getting requests from the airline operators to be allowed to use drones at the airport, to use them to do inspection of aircraft, inspection of their maintenance facilities. Um, you know, there's really great opportunities to use drones at airports, but obviously the airport can't allow that if they can't tell the difference between the good drones and the bad drones, the ones that are actually authorized to be there and ones that's just somebody crazy flying across their Runway. So that's what we provide in our systems for our airport customers. They can import the IDs of all of those drones that are actually authorized to be in the area, so they're tagged as authorized, so that they only get alerts and warnings when there's a drone that's not meant to be there. And it's the, it's these kinds of tools, these kinds of enforcement systems that are necessary to start using drones all over the place and start using drones in more critical areas. So that's kind of what we're all about.

Really interesting. So, so in a sense, it's a display that someone can look at any time. Is there now this whole new created role at every airport where it's someone's job like chief drone safety officer or something like that, or what's, what's been created now to, to manage?

Well, I think, I think one of the keys to delivering real value to these customers is trying to make sure that you don't need to create a new world. Right. Because nobody, no matter the industry, nobody wants have another person on the headcount just to cover this one particular area. So I think it's about understanding their current structure, understanding their security operations and figuring out how to integrate into that, how to make it so that. I mean, number one, just like with any sort of security system, you know, questions of false positives and false negatives are huge. If you're giving a false positive all the time and claiming that you think there maybe is a drone there, that and it's not the case, then people are going to stop trusting your system, they're going to stop looking at it and it's just going to be another screen off in the corner of the operations center that nobody ever actually pays attention to or that people turn off the sound on because it's too annoying. So it's a matter of, you know, building technology and systems that can be trusted by these folks and that doesn't add another burden to their job. But that when there is a real issue, when there is a real problem that they should be aware of, that it's able to get their attention and give them the information they need to actually take action and make real decisions in real time. Interesting.

So because this is a cloud platform, I would imagine, right? Not a on premises kind of thing. So the data, you actually can see data across kind of all deployed dashboards across the world, I would imagine. So is the, are incidences in general just creeping up everywhere of drones being in places they shouldn't? Like, is that something you guys can track from like a worldwide and zoom in?

Yeah, it actually is. So we sell it both ways. So we've got traditionally, especially at the beginning and especially for our, for our defense customers, for the military folks, we're selling them the hardware, we're selling them the systems and they're operating it both in country and, you know, around the world. But for the commercial side, when you're thinking about airports and stadiums and prisons and things here in the US that's exactly it. We're building out cloud based coverage so that we're able to provide that monitoring where we're able to provide kind of real time support all over the place. And I would say, yeah, it's shocking to me the number of interesting incidents that we see more and more. I think it's the kind of thing where the more systems we put up in more places around the world, just the more stuff we see. And from like a sampling statistics perspective, it really makes you consider that there's just incidents happening all over the place all the time. Right now we've literally tracked drones smuggling contraband into prisons. It's nuts. And we've tracked that in situations where we weren't even trying to watch a prison, it just happened to be that there were prisons nearby and suddenly we're seeing a drone fly over it at 2am in the middle of the night and we're like, huh, that's kind of odd. I wonder what that's doing. And sure enough, it's a real incident.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, especially I got to imagine San Diego where we've got such dense clustering of border military, prison, sports stadiums. Like you don't have to be very far to cross a lot of different airspaces in that regard too. So it's got to be fascinating.

Yeah, exactly. And it's proven to be a good testing ground for us to be able to deploy our technology and refine it and figure out how best to deploy it in different types of areas, different types of situations. As you hinted at, you know, border protection is a big thing. Airspace safety is a big thing with commercial aviation. You know, I mean, the San Diego airport is a pretty uniquely situated airport with the way the approach path is and kind of how dense it is around everything else. It's not out on its own way in the middle of nowhere like some airports are. So it's a good opportunity to see a real world environment where where drones are flying is actually pretty critical.

Absolutely. And what to have like a military airfield maybe like, I don't know, 300ft away kind of thing. It's like really the north island too, right?

Yeah, yeah, North Island Coronado and Cast Miramar a little bit to the north. We have a surprisingly large number of airports and airfields in San Diego. It's true.

Yeah. So take us. Where do you think the future is of all this? Is everything, eventually automation, everything's coordinating and talking to itself and no humans in a loop or where, where are you building towards?

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a mix. I mean for us the long term vision is really about tying into the larger airspace management world and the UTM system, UAV traffic management system, which is kind of the direction that the commercial drone world is going. It's about building out that sort of drone air traffic control network with a lot of different entities. And you know, at SkySafe, we're really positioning ourselves to be one of the major data providers in that network to be able to provide airspace information about where the drones really are and not just the self reported information of drones that are good and following the rules, but also the question of drones that maybe are trying to not follow the rules and trying to not exactly report where they are. So there's going to be a big need for that in aerospace management and airspace enforcement. And if we can do that, then we can start having that higher level of automation, that higher level of massive use of drones, especially in places that are dangerous or otherwise hazardous. You think about all sorts of inspection things. You know, I mean, I gave the example earlier about roof inspection for insurance purposes. You know, roofs are dangerous. People fall off them all the time. Similarly, inspecting cell towers is another relatively dangerous job. There's lots of that. That if we can just automate that and just have it happening constantly with. Without direct human intervention needed, it can be a really big benefit.

Fascinating. Well, it's pretty cool to have San Diego be such a big part of not just a testing ground, but also so much tech in this space as well too. Right. From the customer, but also a lot of other drone makers here as well. Take us through. Just what do you think the ecosystem is like in terms of building tech around here too?

Yeah, I think it's a good ecosystem and I think it has a good balance as well. You know, we've got a diverse set of types of startups, obviously. We've got the biotech focus, we've got the defense focus, we've got hardware companies, we've got software and service companies. You know, I think, I think it's great and I think that it's, as I said, I think that folks kind of stick around for longer here. People are here because they're excited about what they're doing. And I think, you know, there's also a lot of opportunities for kind of collaboration, working together between different types of companies, especially in things like the drone space.

Yeah, yeah. In fact, we've got a drone company, model AI, who I think has helped the have the first drone delivered taco.

Oh, there you go.

I know. They, they partnered, they partnered with Uber originally doing a test for Uber eats on food delivery by drone, which is kind of cool because San Diego is a taco town. And you know that.

It's true.

Do you have a favorite taco place?

Ooh, you know, I don't have a number one favorite taco place because I think number one, the beauty of San Diego is there are so many good taco and burrito places that it's hard to go wrong. And I think, I think most people have a favorite taco place in each part of San Diego in each region. It's just wherever you are, you know where you're going to go. For me, I probably default to a Vallarta Express all the time. I'm a big Vallarta fan, half of which is convenience. But let me see other great places. El Cuervo over on Washington. Love it. But yeah, you just. It's hard to go wrong.

Yeah. You talking the Vallarta in pb.

Well, I'm really talking to all the Vallartas.

Yeah. Okay.

For sure.

That's a go to. But yes, you're right. There's a bunch around. Like you said, geographically there's always a place. There's also time of day based on, you know, there's breakfast tacos, late night taco. So yeah, we've got a matrix to our taco system almost.

I'm a breakfast burrito at all hours kind of person. So absolutely lots of good breakfast burrito options.

Well, Grant, thanks so much for for being on the podcast, sharing the story and sharing the protection, honestly building, building security into our daily lives that honestly most of us take for granted of what's in the sky.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely. Thanks, Grant. Appreciate it. Great. Thanks for tuning in to Tacos and Tech Podcast. You can find all of our episodes on freshbrewedtech.com as well as on Twitter at Tacos and Tech Pod. Also follow Fresh Breedtech on all of our social platforms and make sure to share and give a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Google Play. Thanks again.

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