The $100M Founder Who Solved Social Media for Business (w/ Leila Hormozi)

You will get fucking ripped apart online. If you are not okay with that and you want to avoid it, you're not going to be cut out for it. A lot of people that are trying to build brands right now, what I see is stopping them is that they're trying to impress people that aren't even buying from them.

Is it very important to niche down into something, or would you say to go for more broad appeal? What's your opinion on that?

You have to know why you're posting in the first place. Like, rather than trying to get impressions or look cool, they can apply what you taught them and it can change something about their behavior. And that's when you build authority. The job of everybody in here is to help someone make a decision.

What are the weak signals That people are doing that they're not aware of that are costing them money.

Let me give you this frame.

Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, we wanted to have you as a guest for a long time, so I'm glad we were able to make it happen. But the theme of this event, Leila, is Escape the Middle, and we want to escape average mediocrity. If you're talking about helping people break out of this whole thing, you are someone who started from dirt. Like, you're not ashamed to say you guys started from nothing and you built an amazing business and you built a personal brand that reaches millions and millions of people every single month. Is it something that you have to be super intentional about from the get-go, or is it something you can figure out along the way?

Um, I think the one thing that if I were to be super intentional about one piece of it, it's that I always told myself I was only going to make content about the things that I was actually competent in. So, um, I think that it's really easy to be competent about who you are. Like, there's only one of you. Um, I never tried to chase all the trends and all the other things that were going on. I was like, you know what, I'm just going to focus on what I'm good at. And so that was my main focus when I first started. Like, I was terrible. I think I literally had like a video camera and we were like on vacation at some place in Utah and I was filming myself, like, propped up on books, and it was like a fireplace that I was in front of, and I filmed all of them in the wrong format for YouTube. And then I was like, shit, okay. And I look back at those videos, and the thing is, is like, I was like, I know they're not even formatted correctly, but I'm just going to put them up because I was like, I just don't care. Like, the content in it is good. Somebody's going to see this and they're going to understand that I cared less about the aesthetics of it and more about just making sure that I gave people something valuable. So I think that was like the two things I've always focused on are one, I'm always going to be myself. I'm never going to try and like be like somebody else out there just because they're getting a lot of views. The second one is, is this valuable for the person watching? Like, sure, there might be things that you want to share, but it's like, am I sharing this because it makes me feel good about myself or because it helps somebody that's watching? Yes. And I'm really focused on you know, wanting to help the person watching. Before I started making content, you know, at the level I have, I actually made content when I was a personal trainer. This is, you know, 15 years ago. That's how I got clients. And everyone was like, how are you getting clients from content? This was like, you know, super lo-fi, like very like— remember when it was almost like everyone looked orange on Instagram? It was so old. Maybe it's dating me, but it was, it was back then. And I only showed like before and afters of my clients. And their workouts and what they were doing and what they were eating. And everyone's like, why wouldn't you show off like you and what you're doing? I was like, because I want to show them the wins of all the people they can relate to.

Yeah.

And so I think it just continues to be the same thing, which is thinking in the eyes of the person that you're talking to, what is going to be valuable for them? And I think a lot of people that are trying to build brands right now, what I see is stopping them is that they're trying to impress people that aren't even buying from them. It's like they're trying to be like somebody who they don't even know if they make money or not, or if they're successful or not. They just see they get views and then they're trying to essentially impress people that aren't going to buy from them. So it's like you have to know why you're posting in the first place.

Yeah, I love the fact that you said proof, like you're showing before and after. That's proof of concept.

Yeah.

Which is the most valuable way to get clients. We found like when we show proof in our stuff, it's like the number one way to get more business. And so I love the fact that you brought that up because I think you talk about this like a lot in terms of you could win the influencer game and chase views and go try and go viral. But like, that may not help your business. I mean, it's good overall, like if you're trying to get just impressions, but it doesn't— it's not—

why? Why would you just want impressions?

Yeah, there's got to be a reason for this, right?

Yeah.

When you see someone who should have made it, like they had the thing, they had all the characters, like they should have made it, but they didn't make it for some reason. Like, what's the real reason behind that? Because I feel like they'll tell you one reason, but you guys are really good at coming up with the real reason of why they're not making it.

I mean, at the end of the day, I think you can always change the strategy of the business. You can't change the founder. And so when a business doesn't work, oftentimes you can make any business work because if somebody's business isn't working as it is, they can pivot. They can try a new strategy. You can get new people on your team. You can do all new sorts of stuff. But if you don't have the emotional fortitude to do that, then you're going to end up finding some reason outside of yourself to quit. And there's two times where that became really real for me, which was the first time was during COVID You know, we had Gym Launch, Prestige Labs, Allen, which all served in-person brick-and-mortar businesses. And so, you know, everything's, you know, up and to the right. We're crushing it. I'm like, this is amazing. Put operators in two of the companies. I'm running the new one, and I'm like, this is going to be so amazing of a year. And then COVID hit, and I was like, fuck me. So, um, I was like, I hate everything, right? Because we had actually just taken our other two companies out to market, um, and we talk about how we sold Gym Launch, you know, for $50 million. We had gotten quoted for much bigger than that, about 3 to 4 times that. But then COVID hit. So it's funny because it sounds like a success to everybody else, but to us it was like Fuck, this sucks. So that's just a fun tidbit. Yeah, that's perspective.

$50 million sucks, but like, it would have been $150—

it could have been $150 million. Did suck a little bit.

Okay, I got you. No, um, so when we were doing that, that tells me there's levels to the game, you know? There's levels to this game. Like, we're on the— we're not even close to the levels. But yeah, keep going. Sorry.

Yeah, no, you're good. So during COVID we had all the gyms are freaking out. They're like, what do we do? This is in-person. How are we going to get clients? And so we built like 8 different strategies based on what the precautions in your state were. And we're like, all right, we pulled an emergency call. This is what you do if you're in this state, these states, this state. If you have to be 6 feet apart, 10 people in the building, nothing at all, here's what you're going to do. And it was so interesting because some people that had actually had like really crushing it, like fast-growing gyms, they just went completely flat. And it had nothing to do with the momentum they had in the gym. It had everything to do with this. It was like they were like, this is horrible, we can barely do anything, I'm already stressed. I'm— there was all these reasons and they blamed COVID, but it wasn't COVID, it was this. The same thing has happened with multiple portfolio companies that we've invested in, um, which sucks because you lose money on those. Yeah, shout out to all those. Um, got another notice this morning. Um, every time it's like the founder couldn't face something, you know. I can't tell you how many times there's been the stress they say is too much, um, the public scrutiny is too much, there's too much legal to deal with. Like, it's these things that they perceive as very bad that are just the cost of doing business as you get bigger. Like, you are going to be scrutinized publicly, you're going to be shamed publicly, you're going to have people make up terrible rumors about you, you're going to have people sue you left and right, you're going to be in lawsuits all the time. And we had some companies that were getting to hundreds of millions and they basically just opted out. They find a reason and you can tell it's not a real reason because you're like, I just told you that we've gotten through this before and here's how you deal with it, and they just opt out. And so, I mean, that's why like a lot of my content, you know, I could make a lot more content about like the very tactical pieces, but like, that is not what's allowed me to continue operating the company at this level. It's been completely working on my mindset because, you know, when you are sick dealing with 5 lawsuits that are hundreds of millions of dollars, when your key person quits, when you're understaffed, you're growing fast, and you have people making up rumors about you online all at the same time, like, you have to know how to handle yourself to deal with that. And a lot of people haven't learned how to handle themselves enough that they can't handle their business too.

Yeah, that's huge because I think it puts it in perspective too, because a lot of times when I think about the problems that we face in business coming up, it's just relative. Like, you just rattled off a few things that are like a Wednesday for you, and then for some of the people in here, we're like, well, shit, I thought I had problems, you know? And now you look at this, but it is relative because it's all relative.

Yeah, you know, when the first person made fun of me online 7 years ago, I'm sure it felt just as terrible as when there's a news article about me now.

Yeah. And about that, it's specifically, um, you built your own brand standing right next to one of the most recognized brands in the entrepreneur space, your husband Alex. And, um, like, when you were doing it, how did you separate? Because, like, people really respect your brand for you now, you know. And I think in the beginning, maybe like, oh, that's Alex's wife. But, like, you built your own brand, which I'm really, uh, like, I admire for all the stuff that you put out. So how did you do that? Did you intentionally, or like, what was your thought process around that?

I'm super proud to be his wife, and I love him more than anything, and he's an amazing partner in life and business. So like, I never felt annoyed when people were like, oh, you're just Alex's wife. I was like, well, it's better to be underestimated than overestimated, if anything. Um, and so I just honestly, like, I remember there was a moment, so we were— we actually donated like $4 million to this charity This was like 8 years ago. And we went to this charity event, and it had been largely me communicating with the team, initiating things, et cetera. And then when they called to be like, all right, we're going to announce the biggest donors, they only called Alex's name. And I remember in that moment, there was all these people looking at me, and they were like, what are you going to do? Are you going to say something? That's so fucked up that they didn't call your name. And in that moment, I just decided. I was like, I choose not to be angry about things I can't control., and other people's perspectives of me is one of those things. So I always just focused on if I want to post about my relationship, I post about my relationship. If I want to post about work, I post about work. I, I think do, um, a select amount of relationships posts only to show people the partnership that we have because it's a huge part of my life. But most of my stuff does focus on business. I think now obviously, you know, we have a kid on the way, so like I have been sharing some of that stuff.

Um, oh, not enough for that.

Um, I never— I just refused to think about the ways that people could discriminate against me. Everyone has something that people can discriminate you for, and you may think that's not the— everyone feels that way. I've talked to enough people that have brands. It's like, okay, is this true? Maybe. Is it helpful to me in building my brand to think about it? Probably not. So like, if I can't control it, then why would I focus on it? So I just honestly never thought about it. And I, same in business, like when I was in the rooms and it's, you know, every time in rooms it's all men and it's just me and Alex, I'm like, I'm just not even gonna think about this. I'm just gonna contribute where I can contribute and I'm gonna be myself. And if people, like, I honestly have seen it as, if anything, a good thing that I've been underestimated at times, especially in the beginning, because people just assume that if you talk less, you listen more. If somebody else, if you're married to somebody that you know less or can do less or are less capable, it's like, well, that's not a bad thing in many ways. So I think it's just perspective, if anything.

Yeah, I love that. And I think the part that you just talked about as well was getting over this constant fear of what people think about you. And so I just want to tell you, this audience here is probably 60% women, 57%, something like that. And we lost you. Can we clap it up for the women? We can't see you, but you're here. I feel like the women in the audience tell me, they're like, "Neel, it's easy for you guys to say, you know, you don't have to deal with what we have to deal with." Like, there's just a lot of fear about being picked apart when you put yourself out there, especially from the women's perspective.

Yeah.

And so you lived through that with your content, like you went through that whole thing, and now you don't really care anymore what people say. But how did it— like, what did that teach you, or how did you get over it?

I stopped caring years ago. You don't get bigger if you keep caring. Like, and Alex and I talk about this, like, he's like, what did— what happened? It was like a switch. And I think I just realized I was like, for the first year and a half making content, I was so scared of what people are going to say about me just because I'm like naturally a more insecure person. And so I remember just tiptoeing around my content, almost like trying to be somebody I wasn't. And then I got fucking slammed anyways. And I was like, well, this sucks because I feel like I'm not being myself. So I don't even like watching my own content., and then people are talking shit about this person that I'm not even— isn't even actually me. So I was like, fuck it, I'm just gonna be myself, and if people hate me, then at least I feel good that I'm showing up as me, and that's in line with my values and who I want to be in this world. And so that's why I saw it, and I will say this, you will get fucking ripped apart online. If you are not okay with that and you want to avoid it, do not do this. You are not going to be cut out for it. Like, you have to have the stomach for it. Like, I see comments all the time. They're horrendous. You should have seen some of the ones on me even just announcing I was pregnant. They're like, you don't deserve a baby.

Like, oh my God, much worse than that.

I'm not going to repeat what was said, but like, people say horrific things all the time. They make up insane rumors about you all the time. And it's just like, do you want to spend your life trying to control what other people think about you? How much is it affecting how much money you make? It's never affected how much money I make. It doesn't affect my life. It doesn't affect how happy I am. So it's like, who gives a fuck? Who gives a fuck? Like if some dude with like Cheeto-covered fingers in his mom's basement wants to talk shit, let him fucking talk shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Fuck yeah. I love it. Yeah. So fuck you, bro.

Yeah. Fuck you, Joe267.

Love that shit. So a lot of people think that like the escaping the middle means premium— building a premium personal brand means like getting new headshots and getting the best cameras and the quality aspect. And I feel like, um, maybe that's good and it's important production quality, but in terms of your guys's content strategy— and now you're doing like TV show style production— but back in before that, it seemed like you would be comfortable in many pieces of content just posting the rawness, like the realness. How important is that to you guys now in terms of like how do you balance quant quality versus quantity and all that spectrum?

I'll tell you advice for everybody here versus what I do, because I don't think that everybody here should look at what I do and be like, that's what I should be doing. I actually think very much not. For everybody here, like, if I was full-time trying to generate leads for my company with my content, I would for sure use my cell phone and make more content. My team asks me to do organic content like that all the time, and I'm just like, oh, fuck, I'm too busy. Or, oh yeah, I forgot. Or like, oh, that sounds like a pain in the ass. I just literally forget. And so for me, it's much easier to just, hey, we have this on my calendar planned at this time. I show up and I— they do— they have everything set up and I talk. That's so much easier for me at this point in my career. If I were just trying to get traction with my brand, absolutely I would do that. And by the way, when I have, you know, like as the next year, 2 years go on, I might decide I want to make more content like that because I'm going to have to be at home more for a few months with with the kid. So like, I, I actually think that my brand would be growing faster if I made more content like that, because that is where, you know, every, every time I do make that, my team's like, oh my God, more of it! Because people have such a positive reaction, because I think it feels very much like— I don't know about you guys, but it's like you go on and it's like either very curated or like fucking AI slop. It's just like, oh my God, like, I just want to watch real people. Most of the people that I watch online— we're just talking about this yesterday It's like they're filming with like a very mediocre camera and they have like maybe 1 or 2 people on their team, if that. I think they might outsource it. And they have millions and millions of subs because it's just— they're very authentic and you can tell that they're real. And I think that's actually what people are craving right now. So, um, when you see like the very, um, I would say like produced content, like that is a one piece of a very large funnel that we have. Like We have lots of different form— formats of content, and we're trying a new format. Like, Alex is trying Scale or Fail. I have a show that's coming out, but like, trying is also the word. Just because you see us doing it, like, we don't know if it's gonna work yet. Like, it's what— he's put out 2 episodes. It's like, we have no idea until we get a whole season out. I have no idea. It could shit the bed.

Yeah, I love that because you guys test things though. Like, you're okay testing this and it doesn't work, and I've seen you guys pivot so much with the content strategy, with team. So for this room right here, where, like I said, we're real estate people, mortgage people, building personal brand, putting out content— in terms of content strategy for growing your business specifically, you're not trying to be an influencer, you want to grow your business— is it very important to niche down into something, or would you say to go for more broad appeal? What's your opinion on that?

I think at first it's— I asked myself this question for the first, like, a year of making content, like, which— what is, what is content that I wished that I could have watched when I was in this position as the person watching. And I think that a lot of people in here, you know, everyone for the most part has, you know, been on the other side of it. And so it's like, what would you have wanted to see? And I just start there. And I don't think like everyone has that bad a taste that it's going to be like terrible. And that worked really well for me in the beginning. And I think it created a lot of depth with the audience. So it's like, What would I want to see if I were them? What do I wish I had had 10 years ago that didn't exist? I would say second to that is like, like I said at the beginning, like adding value, like rather than trying to get impressions or look cool, like what tips do I have? What tricks do I have? What things can I give through my content that would be helpful to this person? When I say helpful, that means that they can apply what you taught them and it can change something about their behavior. So change is something they do. And that's when you build authority. If you think about building authority and we talked about this yesterday, we actually, we had a meeting for Sharon's brand and they had a show that they wanted to launch. And I said the issue with this show is it doesn't build authority because it was him talking about other people's businesses. So if you're making content about the news or this or that, or like always talking about something else, you might be getting views and followers. But how do you build authority is you give instructions Somebody takes those instructions, they go take that action. It makes their life better, easier, less friction in some way. That's how you build authority, which you can do with a very like minimal amount of— you can use it with your iPhone and just your mouth. I mean, that's it. So I think that that's—

that's more towards authority, content that builds your authority. Yeah. Okay, I got it. And I think right now that is the part that is standing out from people because the people want to work with people who are competent. And who get results. And I think that's like something that is talked about less when people are just looking at trends on what is working on YouTube or what's working on social.

We don't need another, you know, agent out there just flashy showing off how much money they made on all their sales. Like, nobody gives a shit. Yeah, including me.

I like that.

I do not use those people.

You don't work with those people. Okay, good. So I think one of the things that I really respect you for, and I've gotten a ton of value from your content, Layla, is your the content on building a team and acquire— like, in culture and hiring people. And that's what you guys have done with all your companies and the portfolio companies. And I think one of the biggest roadblocks to growth is people. And I think you may have said this in some piece of content, but you said at some point you're in a people business now. So it's no longer about growing your business. And I feel like we're there in our company. I know many of the top leaders here in this group are as well. And even if you're on the come up, you need someone to help. Like, nobody's done anything big alone. And so from the point, from the concept of like, if you're applying this to personal brand, you need people on the content team. If you're growing the business, you need good people. First of all, I've just found that finding great people is very hard. What are some tips we can give to hear? Like, what would be your advice on finding better people and then keeping better people?

I'll tell you the first thing that one of my first mentors told me, which He said, Leila, you don't have more experience, more of a track record, or more money to offer these people than anybody else on the market. The only thing you've got is your character. Great people want to work for someone with great character and someone that they can respect and feel like, I feel good working for this person and making them money at night when I go home. I like really took that to heart. And so when we were recruiting people in the early days, I would literally throw that in my pitch. I'm like, listen, I don't have as much money to offer you as everybody else. I don't have the track record. I don't have this, but I will work my fucking ass off. I will treat you well. You will have a voice here. You will have autonomy. It's trade-offs. So essentially what I did is always, I'm always positioning the trade-offs to somebody, which is the trade-off when you're small is that when somebody joins you, they have more opportunity, they have more autonomy, Their opinion is way more heard than it would be somewhere else. And they probably in the long run could also make more if they stick around. So it, for a certain type of person, for the right type of person, that's actually insanely appealing. It's when we try to pitch people security, stability, we've got all this other things coming. It's like we try to be bigger than we are. Don't act bigger than you are. People know, and then they come in and then they leave. And also, don't promise bigger than you are. When someone comes in, they're like, I want this comp plan. I'm like, ain't going to be able to do that for 5 years. I'm like, go work somewhere else. I know you'll leave if I lie to you, so like, why would I ever do that? So I'm very upfront with people on the interview process about what this is and what this isn't. Even recently, I'll tell you this, we had a leader in the company who I identified was over a very large unit. And I was like, this is not the right person. And so I let them go. And afterwards I reset expectations with the team because they had overpromised the positions, basically making it sound like everybody was gonna work their way into a portfolio company. You know, on the interview process, they were overpromising things and compensation for the people. And so I just reset expectations and like 6 people quit. And I was like, good, because you shouldn't have come in the first place. They shouldn't have let you in. Wrong expectations were set. So that's the number one thing I see wrong, especially with when people are just starting out, is like they're not properly setting expectations because you're, you are insecure about where you are right now. It's like, just own the fucking insecurity and just tell them where exactly you are and don't overpromise things because they're going to find out anyways. That's like, that's honestly like the number one problem with hiring people.

And you've taught— you teach that like respect is taught through consequences. And you're— I think you're able to give people straight feedback. Was that something you always had or like you had to develop it? And for the people in here who are not great at communication, how do you get there? Because I feel that is a big piece of what you're talking about right now is letting people know expectations, but you have to be clear with the communication.

Yeah, well, it's going to be really fucking painful because it took me, you know, it's been, what, 12 years now that I've been focused on that and I feel like it's just super painful. So like, there's— let me just say this. There's no way to avoid what you want to avoid. Like, you are going to have people that leave, take shit from you. It's going to cost you millions of dollars. They're going to sue you. It's going to fucking happen. If you can't stomach that, again, you're in the wrong game. Okay, go do something else. But like, that will happen. The question is, from each incident, do you learn and do something differently next time? And I've just focused on that. Okay, this person didn't work out. I don't think I gave them feedback fast enough. Fuck, what am I going to do to give feedback faster the next time? And I've just analyzed my behavior each way of like, of course there's always what did they do? But like, that doesn't help me in any way move forward. So it's always been like, what can I do differently? Of course there's another side to the story, but like, that does not help me get better at my job or running this company. I've always just thought to myself, what can I do better next? And so I think that's the first thing. I'd say the second thing is that, you know, I was in sales before I did anything in this business, right? And then me and Alex, you know, started it together and it was like, well, somebody's gotta learn the other stuff and that was me. And so prior in sales, how do you learn to get better at sales? Is you watch your game tape. It's like, hey, I'm gonna watch my game tape. I'm gonna keep reviewing over and over again. So one thing that I applied a lot when I was first interviewing people, onboarding people, running meetings, I would record everything and then I would watch. How did I run that meeting? How did I do that interview? Like, how did I do this? And it worked really well because I could identify one or two things and be like, next time I'm gonna do this differently. So I think it's like, it keeps you honest if you can measure things to that degree and it helps you get better a lot faster than if you just have to guess.

Yeah, that's huge. And I think the part that people, are kind of missing here is when you're able to do this now, it becomes a huge unlock. And I feel so many people are scared to make the next hire, the expense of bringing on the people, and it's like a risk to their business. Like, you know what I mean? They're in that mode of scaling. And so what would be the advice to the business owner in here, the entrepreneur in here who's building their brand, building their team, and maybe they're just— they need to hire more people, but for whatever reason they're not doing it? Maybe it's because they don't have the SOPs. Maybe it's because of their fear of the expense. How do you get those people into a mode of like, now, okay, I'm— I actually need this person and it's going to equal more revenue for me?

I think this comes down to, are you willing to bet on yourself? Like, this is a game of betting on yourself every time. You are going to have to make decisions constantly that are— you don't have all the information and you're uncertain if you should hire somebody right now or not is just one of those many decisions that you have to make. And what I've seen is that people who don't have the trust and confidence in themselves are typically the ones who question those decisions. If I'm looking at decision, my actual thought each time is like, I'll figure it out if it doesn't work out either way. What will I do if it fails on either side? Okay, say I invest all this into this thing, which, by the way, I've done many times, and then it doesn't work out. What will I do? How will I react? And it's just walking yourself through that. But like, there is no way to avoid the uncertainty. And the reality with hiring is that you're either going to hire too soon or too late. There's never a perfect time, like ever. And you either have like all the money and none of the time, or none of the money and all the time. So like, these problems exist, and they have to be solved in the way of like, there's going to be risk in them. And if you trust yourself, it's easy to take that risk. If you can't— if you can't say— if you're like, I don't know if I trust myself. And that's a question that I ask people. I'm like, do you trust yourself? And they're like, yes. I'm like, then why is this such a hard decision to make? And then they realize that and they're like, no, you're right. I've got it. Like, I can handle it if it doesn't work out. Because there is no perfect time to hire anybody. If I get my time back in this way, what can I do to create more growth in my business? I'm constantly thinking about that. Like, we brought on, you know, I don't know, 6 executives this year. All I thought to myself is, if I have all this time back, what will I be able to do for the business that will grow it that much faster? Bet on yourself. That's it. I was like, and I trust myself that I'll do that. And if something happens, then, you know, I'll learn and I'll adjust and I'll do something different moving forward.

Yeah, and I think that what's coming through in the way you communicate is just this like ultra confidence. Like, I don't know if you—

well, it's not confidence. It's not confidence, it's experience. Experience. Yeah, it's just if you've done something enough times to see, like, it's for anybody here. You don't even need experience in business or in the exact thing you're doing right now. It's in times when shit hasn't gone well, when shit's been fucking hard. Did you have your own back? If so, then why are you hesitating? Like, odds are you're going to do now what you've done before. Humans tend to repeat actions. If you've never had your back, that's a different conversation. If you've always had your back, you're going to figure it out. So it's like, you need a lot of fitfo. It's like, figure it the fuck out. I mean, for real though. Yes, I like that. Like, people are like, even people—

This is exact— by the way, this is exactly what people need to hear right now.

It's what?

This is exactly what people need to hear.

Well, it's like, you know, people ask me like, where do you see Acquisition.com in 10 years? I'm like, I don't fucking know. Like, you think that I know what's going to happen with AI, the economy, the market? I can make up something that sounds nice if you'd like, but I'm like, I'm doing okay with a 2-year vision out. Like, it's just— it's like wanting things to be a certain way that it's a complete fucking illusion. And like, anyone who acts like they have complete certainty, which I've met plenty of people like that in business, they're usually not that good at business.

Yes, that's true. I love that. This is freaking awesome. Uh, in the room right now, in our industry, people are under margin compression. Like in the real estate side, people's— the commissions are going down. On the mortgage side, the amount you make per loan, it's just— if you look at the stat, it's going down. Not like crazy, but it is declining. And AI is a threat as well. So I'm just thinking, in this room, for the people who discount themselves, like they discount in order to get more business and they use price as a lever, one of the things you talk about is staying above that, staying premium. And it— and how would you— how would you advise the peop— the person in the room who is still having to discount their service?

You know, it's funny is that, um, so my hairdresser, every time I see her, I'm like, that's it? And she's like, I just don't want to raise my prices, you know, like, and she's at the point where she's so full that she cannot take on any more clients. And she complains about she's in a tough time, but she won't take anybody else on. And that reminds me of a lot of people in business because everybody's always afraid to raise prices or to just not discount. But the question I ask is like, are you making this decision out of a place of strength or a place of fear? And in business, if you want to win, you have to play to win. You can't be playing not to lose. And oftentimes when you are discounting, it's because you're playing not to lose. You're not playing to win. But like entrepreneurship, business, the game you guys are in, it it rewards people who play to win, who know that it's not about risking it one time and jumping into this. You have to continue taking risks. Now, calculated risks. I'm pretty sure if you do 30% discount and you say, I'm not going to do that anymore, that's a calculated risk. That's not like something, you know, fucking insane. There's other people in this room doing that. But you have to be able to continue taking risks because everything— it's like all these questions are from a place of fear, which is like, I'm scared of what? Like, what's the worst thing that happens if you decide not to discount your prices? Somebody says no? So like, the real thing is that a lot of people don't want someone to say no to them. So it's like, you discount, you lower your prices because you can't handle the rejection. And maybe you're getting rejected because you're not good enough, or maybe you're not, you're getting rejected because you haven't practiced enough. Maybe either way, these are all things that you can control. So it's like if you don't give yourself the opportunity to find out if it's even going to work, you're just going to continue playing not to lose, which is a really terrible game to play. I don't know if any of you guys are feeling like that right now. When you play not to lose, you feel like you shrink. And I ask myself this question a lot. I'm like, when I make this decision, do I feel like I'm expanding my life? Do I feel like I'm expanding my business, or do I feel like I'm shrinking my life and my business? Do I feel smaller making this decision? Do I feel worse about myself? And oftentimes that's what I see when it comes to discounting. It's like you feel worse. You've just shrunk yourself. You've literally constrained the resources that you are capable of acquiring purposely. Nobody asked you to. And there's other people not doing that. So there's plenty of evidence. But again, I think there is to a degree. And I mean, listen, like when I got into sales, the most expensive thing I first sold ever was a $300 package. And that was like, holy shit. Someone give me $300. And then it worked all the way up until before we started a business. I was actually doing sales on the side for other businesses, making $25,000 sales, $35,000 sales, $100,000 sales. And I remember at each level, the one thing I focused on was like, I was so nervous because like, I can't believe anyone would spend this much money. There's no way I could sell something that costs as much. It's like you have this limiting belief. And I was just like, I will not act in accordance with my thoughts because my thoughts fucking suck. A lot of people are like, you should follow your heart and your feelings. And I'm like, not if they suck. You should not. Yeah, like, let's not do that. Um, and I don't know about you, but like, I started off with a lot of shitty beliefs and thoughts and feelings, and I was like, I do not want to deal with this. So you have to act your way out of it. If you want to get to a point where you don't need to discount, act like it now. That is a real thing. And so you just have to decide, which means you cut off and you say, I'm never discounting again. And you just— I don't know what's gonna happen, I'm gonna fucking figure it out. And you will. That's the thing, your brain, when you give it constraints, it will focus on that path. If you always have this over here that you could do, it actually works not nearly as well because our brains like predictability and certainty. The moment that we cut off a path, it will find a way forward. But it's leaving that path open that's creating this tension where people can never figure out where they sit in the marketplace, and then they never make enough money to grow.

Yeah, I think it's also the way they communicate too, because I think the customer can feel this. And so you talk a lot about executive presence, how we communicate Maybe the things that we're doing, like overexplaining. Even you had a video that went super viral recently about how to— the subtle things that you're doing that signal that you're weak, like fidgeting or dumb, you know, just shit like you probably don't analyze if you watched film of yourself. What are the weak signals that people are doing that they're not aware of that are costing them money?

Let me give you this frame. The job of everybody in here is to help someone make a decision. Think about the people in your life that you trust to help you make a decision. How do they act? How do they show up? How do they talk? Think about yourself when you're trying to sell to somebody. Do you show up in a way that instills confidence that you are the right person to help them make a decision? So I don't think about it from like a, like sales or even the micro of those little actions yet. I think about, I have to show up like somebody who can help this per— I'm competent enough to help them make a decision. In terms of the things that people do, I mean, I think, Most of the time, if I had to nail down like the one thing that I think is the worst thing you can do in that, in that instance, it's overexplaining yourself. It's like, oh wait, let me give you context. Oh, what about this? Have you— it just signals a lot of uncertainty. And I think that when I was really starting off, you know, 15 years ago and before I'd ever done a sale in my life, like I remember I would overexplain things, overexplain the price, overexplain the market, overexplain the product, over— They don't give a fuck. And they certainly don't want to listen to you talk any longer. Like, we all are busy and don't have attention anymore. And so it's like, get to the point, allow for the point to be there, and don't overexplain yourself. Like, I would say that's probably the number one thing that I see.

Yeah, that's huge. And I think the— we've been talking a lot about this today. People are— when they do that, it signals weakness, and then they feel like they have to overcompensate even more. And then it just is a spiral down. So this is how we get into that premium category. And then when you're there, now I feel like a lot of people who are building their business, they escaped like a corporate job. They wanted to get out of the 9 to 5, and now they have like a 9 to midnight, you know? And like, like, I don't know, it's like, hey, I traded this for this and now I'm a slave, literally a slave. Like, I feel like that a lot sometimes on the come up, not all the time, but like a lot. What is the architecture now that you suggest for people who wanna build a business that doesn't consume them like that?

I think that you have to accept trade-offs. Like, I don't know anybody who's built a really profitable business in a period of time, like in a period of time that is reasonable for someone. Cuz like if you wanted to take 10 years to build a business to get to, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, okay. Then you can take as much leisurely time as you'd like. But I don't know any real business owners who didn't have to sacrifice a lot in the short term. The reality is whether anyone wants to hear it or not, and I don't like it either. The more you sacrifice, the faster, the faster you will get there. So the faster you will get to a point where your business is at a point where it's making enough money that you can do a lot more. You have a lot more freedom and flexibility. So you have to ask yourself the question, which is I think there's two frames to think about, which is like you might be in a position where you can't make that tradeoff. I have kids, I have a husband, I have these other things that are priorities in my life. Then just fucking accept the tradeoff and stop fucking complaining. Like, I'm serious. But it's like people are like, I don't know why I don't make more money. I don't know why this— like, what do I do to like have more money and have time with my kids and my husband? I'm like, I don't know why you can't make more hours in the day.

Like, what?

How do I answer this question? You will probably go slower and make less money because you have other things in life. The point of life is not to have gobbles of money on your deathbed. Like, what are you going to do with it? It's like, accept the trade if that's where you're at in a point in life. I can't tell you how many moms called into my show the other day and they're like, I'm trying to grow my business, but I've got 3 toddlers to take care of. What should I do? I'm like, what do you think? What do you think I'm going to say? Fuck your toddlers. Go all in on the business. Like, I think people actually think I'm going to say that sometimes. I'm like, what do you mean? I spent— I like, I will absolutely pull back if I feel like I need more time with my family or husband. Like, that's a gauge that I'm not willing to cross because that comes first for me. So, um, but there are people in this room who have an advantage. You don't have a lot of family, you don't have kids, you don't have a lot of things outside of what you're doing here in this room. That is an advantage. And if that feels unfair, life is not fair. Like me having a kid, it will take a toll on my career. Is that fair? I don't know. I get to have a kid though. You know what I mean?

Makes sense. Yes. You have a— I love the way you could just simplify the issue down to the core and just call it out for what it is because it's so basic the way you just said it.

It's not a problem to be solved. It's a dichotomy to manage.

Yes, you can't.

So this is not a problem, this is life. And that's where it's like people are trying to solve it, and it's like, what are you gonna do, create the 30-hour day? You know, it's like, it pains me because I get it, it's all seasonal. It's like some seasons I'm more focused on my business, some I'm more focused on my marriage, some I'm more focused on my relationships, some I'm more focused on improving myself, some I'm more focused on shit I don't want to focus on, like fucking lawsuits and health shit and all this other bullshit. But like, and does it always pull away? Whatever thing is, you know, happening at that point, does it pull away from other things? Yes. Even to me, it is what it is. It is what it is. I mean, the best thing that you can do is that I think that the worst phrase in the world is when it rains, it pours. It's like, okay, I'll give you an example. I was telling my team this last week on our all hands. My boyfriend breaks up with me. So then I'm feeling bad about myself. So then I stop going to the gym, and then I start sleeping in, and then I lose my job. And all of a sudden, I don't have a boyfriend, I don't have a job, and I'm out of shape. And it's like, oh my God, I had the worst year ever. Like, my boyfriend broke up with me, I lost my job. No, you did this to yourself. It did not happen to you. So the one thing I will say is that when people have a lot of demand in one area of their life, I see that oftentimes it seeps into the other areas. I've tried really hard to, to manage my life so that when something bad in one area happens, I continue doing the things that are good in the other areas. I don't say I should stop doing these things that add value to my life to focus on this bad thing. I say I should keep doing these things because it'll keep me fucking sane to deal with this bad thing.

Yeah, it's like self-sabotage at that point if you didn't.

Exactly.

Yeah, I feel like—

and those problems don't actually get better with more and more attention.

Yeah, huge. So I think that's going to help so many people. Guys, is this helping you guys in the room right now? Awesome. So thank you so much for taking the time. And I want to kind of wrap up with just a few quick questions. And then— and this has been super— I think this is super helpful. And you just cut through to like so many people here who are dealing with these issues. A lot of these questions I had to source from the room because I want to provide the most value to everybody here watching. And so if you wanted to give the audience one changed behavior, like they leave this conference, they want to be premium, they want to build a premium personal brand, they want to escape the rat race essentially. So what would be that first behavior you would tell them to change Monday morning?

Stop thinking and start executing. Like, I think people overestimate how much strategy went into, for example, me and Alex building Gym Launch. Oh, we didn't think about much at all. We just fucking were monsters at executing. And I think society right now, I think, has a lot of overemphasis on analyzing and thinking and thinking, you know, especially with AI.

Like, I feel like we keep running our ideas by people and then analyzing, overanalyzing, because people need this immense amount of reassurance to take action right now.

Like, the best thing that you can do is walk out of this room, be like, I need zero reassurance. I can feel completely uncertain and take massive action. Like, whoever does that is the most dangerous person in this entire room. And I know for me, nothing good in my life has come from thinking about it for 6 more hours. It usually comes from trying shit, throwing shit at the wall, doing shit fast, and seeing what works and what doesn't. And then taking that feedback and saying, what am I going to do next? What's the next step? What do I do tomorrow? And I think we spend too much time in our heads. And what I hear from a lot of those questions that you sourced is too much time in the head. I don't even think about the fact that anyone ever called me Alex's assistant. I only do it because it makes content. Like, it's not a thought that lives in my head. I don't think about, how do people perceive me? I see something terrible online, and I just move on to the next thing I was supposed to do that day. Like, we're spending too much time in your heads. And like, before, when I was first getting started 12 years ago, that was the biggest difference between who I was then and who I am now. I do not spend that much time in my head. I know when I need to think through something, and I can critically think and make a good decision. But I do not overanalyze things in my head. And so a lot of times when I do find myself thinking about something, I ask myself, would it be more productive to do something or to continue thinking about this? And most of the time it's more productive to do something, which I would say for everybody in this room, it's probably the case. You need more reps and you're not going to get those reps in your head.

So can you settle this argument for me? I had an argument with one of the other speakers and he said, Neel Dhingra, what is your like 5-year vision? What does your vision board look like? And all this. And I was like, dude, I don't have one. Like, I know what I want to do today. I want to serve the room and I know what I want to do tomorrow. I want to do this. And, and I think like what are we going to do this week, maybe this month? And my thing has been, if I take care of the work, the work will take care of me. Do you think it's bad to not, like, have a— like, I know you want to be on the right path, of course, but do you think it's bad to not think long term and just focus on what you need to do now?

No, I think there's a time and place for everything. I think when the short term is an area where you have a lot of underdeveloped skills that you need to get to the next step, you don't have time to think long term. And I hated when I would have people, I would go to like a mastermind, they'd be like, well, what's your 5-year plan? And I'm like, I don't know, I'm making like $30 million a year right now. And I was making $0 and almost bankrupt like a year and a half ago. Like, I have no fucking idea what I'm going to do in 5 years. Like, I just know that I'm not fucking broke anymore, dude. So it's like, so I think I have zero judgment on somebody who doesn't have a plan. I know some of the biggest businesses that are worth billions of dollars that they don't even have a plan of what they're going to do in a year from now. And there are actually a lot of businesses that are run that way. You got to figure out what works for you.

Yeah.

And like, I think that is so much of it too, is like business is very unique to the founder. So like, if you were like, I don't have a 5-year plan, like, okay, but I have no correlation with that being why you'll be successful or not. I think being able to critically think, think ahead to a degree, etc., those are all good things. But I think, you know, if you wrote down a 5-year plan right now, I bet you would look at it in 4 years and be like, Wow, not even close.

Yeah. You know, you went in a totally different way. And I feel like we have to pivot so many times along the way anyways based on what's working, what's not working.

Also, if you look at the books that talk about a 5 and 10-year plan for a company, those books were written 15, 20 years ago. So like, those books are bullshit. Like, the world is different now. Like, let's like use first principles, right? Things change. If you look at like the velocity of technology versus the velocity of human change, It's like technology has increased at an insane rate compared to 20 years ago. So if we're reading books from 20 years ago that say we need this plan with these north stars and this, this and that, like, I promise you, like, it's not going to make or break you.

Yeah, love that. Okay, so I won the debate then.

What?

I won the debate. I can tell my friend.

Was it Shiran shit?

No, no, it wasn't Shiran. It wasn't Shiran. So, uh, I want to share this with you. We got you this gift from the group here at Ford. And yeah, just check this out. It'll be okay.

Mike, is it a pony?

So I watched a piece of Alex's content and he said, he said, if you ever want to get an entrepreneur a gift, don't ever give them something with your logo on it.

I was really afraid it was going to be.

I wouldn't do that shit. You know, I would never do that shit.

He's gonna be like a little NASCAR driver. We're going to have our logo all over him. Yeah, so if anybody wants any, they can pay.

So I hope you guys learned from this gift-giving activity. Like, put the person's logo on it. Put their logo. They'll actually use it. Thank you so much for being here, Leo. This has been awesome.

Thank you for having me. Thank you, guys.

You guys got value.