From 80-Hour Weeks to $50M Agencies (The Scaling Playbook with Phil Case)

And I said, we either go all in or don't do it at all. So it was sink or swim. Those were 60, 70, 80-hour work weeks. We won't work with any business that won't just pay us for what we're worth.

Welcome to the High Voltage Business Builders Podcast, a show where we interview high voltage entrepreneurs growing and scaling through e-commerce, real estate, and other wealth without Wall Street ventures, showing you the path to making your first or next million.

So Phil, as we were talking about a minute ago, welcome to the call. And we were having a, some updated conversation. And one of the things that struck me was your experience in building agencies past $10 million a year. Is this something that you learned how to do on your own? Is this something you were mentored? Is this something that just came naturally? Did you take college courses? Like, how did you get to a place where you could do that?

You know, it's interesting. I think college is so good to go to. I would recommend getting an undergraduate degree for anyone, but I don't think college ever prepares one for everything that they'll encounter in the workforce. I think it does such a good job to discipline your mind, teach you how to learn. But I think outside of college and a career path, it's mostly off-road high adventure and you're figuring out as you go.

Yeah, guys, this is Phil Case. He's joining us today to chat about growth and scale, specifically in agency and outdoor marketing and indoor marketing and every other marketing in between. He's got a lot of experience building companies. We're going to talk today about building from even $20 to $50 million and what does it take to do that. And so guys, as we talk today, just tune in if you are somebody who wants to learn how to build real growth and scale in your business. That's what this episode is about. So Phil, just real quick, man, give us your background. Like, how did you, where'd you grow up? Who are, who are you? I guess is a simple question.

Grew up in Phoenix. When I went to college, you know, after a couple of years, my plan was I want to study Arabic. Be an international diplomat, live in the Middle East, and, you know, go have an adventure. And interesting, I met my now wife and she kind of said, that sounds amazing. I wish, you know, I hope you have a great life. I backpedaled, stopped studying Arabic, and then still graduated international business. But for a while I was trying to knock on the door of the financial sector, wanted to do investment banking. And it's interesting, I stumbled into advertising. I got an internship just kind of by luck with a digital agency and, you know, first job outta college, they took me in and I figured out that it came intuitively. You know, it was fun to do. And I remember a couple years into my career, I was still trying to leave and go do finance. And one day my paradigm forever shifted when a client said, you know, this is the most exciting thing I have to look forward to all week is meeting with you, the agency.

Yeah.

I thought, if I'm the most exciting thing that you have happening and you're the head of marketing for this company, then I have a pretty good gig. I should be content with what I'm doing. And so I kind of doubled down then.

Okay.

Ultimately became the managing partner of that agency for the next decade, growing it from a few hundred thousand in revenue to about $5 million, from about 4 to 35 employees.

And what were some of the best practices during that timeframe that allowed that kind of growth under your direction?

I mean, it's crazy town when it's 4 or 5 people and you're the, you know, bottle washer and cook and, you know, waiter. And eventually we kind of got to that point where, I mean, number one, one of the key decisions that happened early on when I took over is we brought on a very tenured and well-respected creative director, and he became my partner. And he was fantastic. He had the calm, the swagger, as well as the leadership skills that I looked up to and aspired because of the kind of individual he was. And so he brought, you know, talent and strength and leadership that, you know, was aspirational still for me. And then over the course of the next, or the first few years, we eventually built a leadership team that we could meet with, that we could have perspective from. We help them in terms of getting beyond themselves and knowing how to develop their teams. And once we put that core leadership team in place, as we grew to 10 to 15 to 20 employees and beyond, that made all the difference because you can't manage 15 people effectively and it's through others. And so that was kind of some key decisions.

Now, how much on-the-job training or other training or mentorship did you take on, or were you kind of just sink or swim and figure it out as you go?

It was interesting. So the president of the agency left when I had been there for 3 years. I was, I was 25 and I met with our holding company and he said, hey, you're the most tenured individual here at the time. And, you know, the only one that knows how to do sales or run a business. And he said, we can either close up shop with the 4 employees and a few hundred thousand in revenue or do something about it. And I said, we either go all in or don't do it at all. And so it was a little bit of a sink or swim. Those were tough years, 60, 70, 80-hour work weeks. But I'll say I had some incredible individuals along the way. Someone that had mentored me from years prior through this kind of point. The holding company had an excellent individual that was a mentor. And then I've always kind of sought out individuals. I'm not an individual or I'm not a person that particularly thinks I have the right answers. And so I tried to surround myself with other successful business people and executives and CEOs just in the course of doing business and continually asking them, what would you do in this situation?

Right.

And I think that those relationships are really what carried me, you know, in addition to the podcast and the books and, you know, the seminars and workshops that you go to learning how to be a leader. It was really those individuals that I saw their example and tried to pattern after.

Yeah, that's good. It's a learn by example is definitely one of the ways I've learned through following or just, you know, learning to imperfectly act into the process until I figure out what needs to go. And just being willing to, you know, as the book says, fail forward in those learning lessons. And it sounds like you had a big, a big time, plus the team that was around you clearly was willing to come under that same direction.

Did you fall into these people?

Did you have a specific way of identifying them into your culture, or were they literally, you know, the idea of a, maybe a C or B player that eventually became B and A players?

Yeah, I, it's interesting because we only started with 4 full-time employees at that I mean, we did try to seek people out very intentionally and in the advertising and digital marketing space, you can post a job and you'll get so many candidates and most of them won't be qualified. And we would do that, but most of the time we would cherry-pick, we would seek out, we would see who was around us and that was the best in class and best in market and try to hire them. And so that helped in terms of building the right team. And it was interesting. I kind of went from a point in my career where I was so focused on building business, closing business, being that, you know, key relationship person, but then that shifted and no longer was I, you know, so to speak, the man. I was no longer the athlete. I became the coach.

Yeah. That's a big difference.

Well, and I remember years ago going to a, you know, kind of a a luncheon with a keynote speaker. And I remember sitting in this ballroom and they kind of explained, you know, in your career, until you fully embrace the fact that you're no longer the Olympic athlete and you embrace the job of an Olympic coach, that is when things will really begin to accelerate in your business. And I needed to hear that because, you know, you begin to learn that it's not about you. It's not about your success or achievements. None of that really matters. It's supporting, building your team, being the wind behind their sails. And that way, not only can you, one, multiply efforts in a much larger way, but two, there's no greater satisfaction I've found in my career than seeing someone else succeed when perhaps they didn't think that was possible. Yeah.

Isn't that fun to watch when you know you can see better in others and not in a critical way? You just know that they're capable of doing more. They just don't necessarily aren't willing to do it. And you're like, you can do it. That's literally when you start feeling that momentum shift out of, well, let me just do it, into, I know you can do it. So what is holding you back from getting it done? And you do see that shift. And I usually analogize it, maybe it makes sense to say it this way. And because I appreciate the way you're saying it makes complete sense to move from the lead person, we would say the lead dog, to the one that's driving the sled, right? Which is a big, big difference in mindset. But, you know, I can see that in a lot of people moving from the entrepreneurial mindset into a business owner. It almost seemed like you saw the entrepreneurial go-getter, 70-hour week, let's get this done, go rah-rah team, you know, I'll help lead this charge, let's get it done while we figure out how to make sure we do it the right way into, okay, now we're establishing a business. Now we see this actually working. So now I need to step into the business owner role and start saying, okay, how can we make this easier for you? Which is what a good CEO leader does, right?

And it's interesting. So kind of fast forwarding. So we, you know, built systems, we built processes, you know, and how we would, you know, do team development, how we would do finances and accounting and sales, et cetera. And when I left Fluid Advertising, kind of my first agency, and came over to where I'm at today at MaxConnect, it was interesting. So they were, you know, 3, 3.5 times the size that I was then. And so much good groundwork was in place and yet it was different. And I had the moment of, well, hey, I would do things differently, or this is what I found. But I had some good kind of counsel early on, which was just sit back a couple of months, let this play out and understand. And the thing that I thought was the most brilliant, there was 4 original founders. Of this agency, and they had grown it to that point. And then they essentially kind of, so to speak, brought in their replacements and said, "Look, we're going to hand off the reins to you guys. You're capable, competent. We think you can take it further than us." And not only did they step back, but they moved out of the office physically just to make the statement: "We're no longer taking the reins. You guys run with it, and we trust you." And I think that. That in and of itself was a huge leadership lesson where they were the entrepreneurs. They were the ones that, you know, their name was on the business, so to speak, and their willingness to take a step back and say, we think there's others that can drive this forward more successfully than we can. And, you know, I, I think was a, a kind of an inflection point for our agency as well.

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It makes a lot of sense. And again, it really gets down to that experience and the timing and who you have to work with. But there's also something else we haven't addressed in that opportunity, and that's capital. Talk about what that looked like for you guys at the first 4 and, and as you were moving forward, how did you, you know, was there any issues with payroll? Were you running on a thin line or, you know, talk, talk to me about how the business was running.

Yeah. I mean, so we, you know, banking relationships and business line of credit, there were months that we didn't make money and that was hard. And, but we had enough in the bank and we were part of a holding company. So there was some buffer there that, you know, with some other related business entities. But yeah, I, there was a lot of pressure if the month was, you know, razor thin in terms of margin and/or When we dipped into the red, we felt it. I mean, that was, I remember many family vacations where my wife would kind of, okay, I can tell you're gone because of what you're thinking and worrying about and just all of the stress that you take on.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, it's not only motivating, but seeing what you both came from and as you kind of build buffers and I mean, it's interesting. I've learned that it's very much a diversification of clients. I mean, no one client is, you know, 10% or even 5% of our business. We're very conscientious of that and diversified by geography, diversified by industry. And so I do think it's valuable to say building a sustainable business and whether that's on a retainer, whether that's recurring revenue, But that then allows you to make some key decisions in the business you couldn't otherwise with at least a level of confidence.

Yeah. And that's an interesting part, both the business and bootstrapping to some degree, but also having a bit of a barrier that could provide in the capital sense, because that's a, a lot of things that get started are difficult until you start making the sales and dial in your offer and really figure out what's my unique selling position in the marketplace. Why, why our agency versus somebody else? Why our business versus someone else? Do you guys, uh, if I might transition just a second, 'cause of something you said, there's a work-life situation going on here where your wife is like, hey, you're not dialed in. You're not focusing on us. You know, can you talk more about that? I, I know you have family to some degree out there, but—

Yeah.

So, so I have 4 kids and at the time our family was young in that kind of more entrepreneurial state. It's interesting. I work less today than I did then. I'm probably more like 35 hours a week.

Okay.

And I probably get so much more done. I mean, I look at my younger self and I worked really, really, really hard. And now I work through people, processes, and systems and can accomplish far more in half the time. That being said, it's interesting. I remember sitting down with an individual who became my mentor and we were at lunch and he He was a CFO of many large organizations. And I said, how many hours a week do you work? And most guys, you know, it's kind of the chest beating, you know, 60, 70, 80 hours, and it becomes bragging rights. And he kind of just thought for a moment quizzically. And, you know, he said, anywhere from 32 to 35 hours a week. And I thought, are you serious? You're running a great business and yet make it look effortless.

Optimizations, right?

And for him, his kids were at that kind of critical age of teenage years, getting ready to leave home, high school graduations. And he just said, you know, for him, he said, you know, I've made enough money that, you know, whether that's $10 million or $100 million, it kind of doesn't matter after that point. And so I focused on what my priorities are. My priority is to be with my family. So he made those incremental deca-millions for sure, but his priority was with the family. And it was interesting for me to kind of hear that. And so since that time, I aspired to actually work less and be present more. And the balance that I have today is not only more sustainable, but it just, it feels right.

And does it feel more successful overall? Do you feel more, you rest easier at night? Do you sleep a little better?

And I think it's changed my paradigm of success. I used to see success as, you know, I got that job, I had that exit, I got that promotion, I made that amount of money.

Right.

And now success to me looks like I have a great marriage. I have 4 wonderful children. My body is healthy. I sleep well at night. I have other hobbies and activities.

Yeah.

And I feel so fulfilled at work and feel like I'm making a difference every day. And we're making money. And that paradigm shift of success, it's made all of the difference. My happiness and life satisfaction today versus a decade ago is a lot better.

Well, 70-hour weeks are hard to keep up. And I've tried that before at IBM and I flew 200 days a year. So I can tell you that is just not something that wears well on your body, your mind, your heart, your family, anything else. So kudos to you for figuring that out, man, because You're mid— I don't want to date your age, but with 4 children, I'm going to assume you're not far off from me. I'm 49. But as we start to look forward and kind of think, okay, where are those priorities? What do we think is important? Some meetings, some deals. Okay, fine. Some situations where before you're like, hustle, hustle, we got to get that deal done. We got to close that. We got to hunt. Some of you're like, okay, well, if it comes, that's cool. If it takes, that's fine. I think that comes with just a Conscious competence in what you know you're capable of doing. Is that a good way of saying it?

It's interesting. There's a lot of deals we'll walk away from, but there's a lot of deals that we don't as heavily chase, but we allow ourselves to be chased. And so I've learned in my career, one of my best sales tactics is to show mediocre interest and simply say, you know what, if it makes sense and if If you're the right partner for us, you know, we'll take a step forward. But you know what? It may not. I was in a meeting yesterday and this client or this potential client, you know, they're spending hundreds of thousands a month and looking for a new agency. And, you know, I just said, we'd rather be, we'd rather front load our investment in you relative to insights and, you know, kind of a comprehensive audit and, you know, building a go-to-market strategy. I kind 'Cause he had been through 3 to 4 other agencies. And I said, you know, if we were to take you on and in 3 months we stopped working together, we, I would lose money. And we would rather do it right and understand, are we the right fit and are you the right fit? And if we are, then let's take that next step forward. But if we're not, we would, we would almost rather not engage 'cause it doesn't make financial sense.

It feels like a failure inbound, right? There's risk and red flags going off and saying, okay, if you're up to 4 people, what is it you're actually looking for?

Yeah.

That you think that they were supposed to do, like some kind of magic button or something you think is going to happen. That's the gray area of danger.

And what was interesting is this CEO actually leaned in and said, when can we meet next? Like, you're saying things I've never heard before. The fact that you want to be more patient, that you would be more thoughtful and intentional. And so I would say that our team today is, number one, we're not desperate and we never will be. But number two, that competence, but confidence Yes. Knowing who you are as an agency and what you're good at. Yeah. We turn down deals right and left if it's, it is worrisome or going to have the impacts we need to. And anyway. Yeah.

'Cause you know that some, one of those deals could disrupt the balance of all the things you just spoke about that are now in balance and harmony in your business and your life. And you get one client in there that's calling you at 2 in the morning going, why are my CPMs not right? You know, that, and that imbalances things extremely fast. And, uh, you know, from what you're saying, would, uh, and I'm sure you would appreciate this, it would be, well, yeah, sure. We can talk next week and not tomorrow. Like I would usually just put 'em off. Into next week and then just let it set for a while. That's where confidence comes in. It's like, no, I don't need you to be here. Just, just let me, we'll do this next week. Um, what do you think about it?

And it's interesting. We've had so many brands come to us to say, hey, would you be interested in, you know, being paid per sale? Do you want a commission model based on that? And at the end of the day, we won't work with any business that won't just pay us for what we're worth.

But that's a great way of That's a great way of going.

But what we've done on the other end is then to now enter into joint ventures very selectively with well-vetted clients that we've worked with for some time and said, saying, we would love to take an equity position. We want to double down on our relationship. We want aligned interest. You have a potential exit in the next couple years and we want 10 to 15% of ownership. And then we'll steadily, so to speak, invest in a non-cash fashion. So we'll contribute to the media, we'll contribute additional services. And that has been really interesting. It gives us an opportunity to run the business not only as if it were our own, but with the opportunity of that bigger payout. And so not only do we not want to work with the right— you know, we don't want to work with the wrong businesses on the front end, but now we're doubling down with those horses that we're betting on. And that's kind of the new chapter that we're turning to that we're very excited.

Well, if you're confident you can do it, we have a product partnership in the same capacity where I vet them and vet the opportunity and determine whether or not it makes sense. And that's to be very selective about whether or not it makes sense to do that. And I appreciate the way you're saying it. We have some more to talk about, Phil, because I have other things I want to jam on you with personally. So let's wrap for now. And then I want to invite you back later on, maybe next year until— and kind of see where things are going, where you're at, and keep up with you. I know you've got guys just in terms of what they're capable of doing. Splenda, Yeti, BMW clients have been some of your guys. They're working with some big brands. So just be conscientious of that if you, if you choose to reach out to them. And just for scope of work, so anybody listening to this, what's too small? What's midsize? What are your, where's your sweet spot of somebody's like, hey, I really want to talk with MaxConnect. What should they be bringing to the table in terms of, you know, expectations?

Yeah, we, we don't work with startups. We're typically at that we're ready to scale and grow phase. And so Most of our clients we're working with media budgets of half a million to a million plus a year. It's a good kind of rule of thumb. And it's interesting, rather than focus on Fortune 500, most of our efforts of expansion and growth have been regionally and the larger regional powerhouses. And so we've actually begun opening new offices and we'll continue to do so over the next few years where rather than simply say, do we go work with Coca-Cola, but rather how do we go work with, you know, a car wash ownership group with 40 locations across 2 states? And so that shift in paradigm for us has allowed for rapid expansion and growth and being able to kind of tap into new markets versus just have a single office. And that's been exciting.

Good. Well, guys, I know there's a number of you listening to this that do spend $20,000, $50,000, $100,000 a month in paid traffic. So if you're looking for Some conversations of insight with a great person and a great brand outta Utah, then you might wanna check out Phil. Check out MaxConnect in the link below. Check him out on social media. He does a lot on LinkedIn, which is his preferred. So just check out Phil Case on LinkedIn and, uh, you know, get out there and continue to market, right, Phil?

You know, marketing is, uh, it's so fun and I think you'll find that you never tire of it. And there's always new innovations along the way. And so I, I think it is probably the most exciting career to be in.

I completely agree. Guys, as always, like, share, comment, share this with somebody who might need to know about Phil and what they're doing. If an agency format is what you need in your business to grow to the next level, come in serious. You're gonna need half a million in yearly ad spend to meet their requirements. You heard him say it. Uh, so don't waste his time with that if you can't make that happen. But if you are serious about it, definitely check them out. Like, comment. I don't care if you leave snide remarks. You're going to help us get this out to more people. Share it with anybody you need. And as always, we'll be back with another episode next week. Take care, guys.

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