The Next Acquisition Engine for Gen Z: Rewards, Not Ads

If we can grow in these really dense networks, that obviously is great for word-of-mouth growth. It also helps us test what this two-sided platform or marketplace looks like. I think what we wouldn't want to do necessarily is over-index on one side of the marketplace or the other. And so the more that we can figure out what balance looks like at the micro scale, then we can start to progressively open this thing up.

Welcome to the High Voltage Business Builders Podcast, a show where we interview high voltage entrepreneurs growing and scaling through e-commerce, real estate, and other wealth without Wall Street ventures, showing you the path to making your first or All right, folks, welcome back to the High Voltage Business Builders Podcast.

If you are here listening today, watching this on YouTube or Instagram, Facebook, wherever else this goes out, please like, share, comment, engage, help me beat big tech. And as always, even if you leave a nasty comment, I don't care. You're helping me with social engagement. Just leave something, do something, engage somewhere, help give my guests some heads up. Today we're talking with the founder of a very cool app and a network, a private network, uh, that's gonna connect brands and people and consumers and businesses. And I think if you're paying attention to this and you're in the ages of 18 to alive, uh, then you're gonna wanna pay attention to what he's doing today, because I think you guys will like this. This is going to be relative to connecting the value social driven community aspect of this app. Checked it out just a little bit. Really cool to speak with him today. So Sam, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me here.

Thanks for having me. And Neil, I want to say that we're both kind of on a mission to beat big tech here. So this will be a fun conversation.

Let's beat big tech. Yeah. So how are you doing it in your world, Sam?

Yeah, sure. So what's Claim? Claim is a social app where you and your friends are rewarded for trying new brands and Really what we're attacking here is advertising as we know it today, Neil. And by that, I mean, we're going after Google AdWords, we're going after Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, these big behemoth legacy companies that have been around forever, tremendously successful, by the way, but the time's ripe to kind of introduce a new way to reach consumers from a brand's perspective. It's been 15 years since the advent of one of these platforms. So that's what we're going after from a market perspective.

Awesome. So who really is going to benefit from the value of the community-driven aspect of, of Claim, which you're building right now?

Yeah, it's 2 sides really. It's the marketers, and we'll talk about kind of their journey in a minute, but it's people on the marketing side that are trying to find a more authentic, more effective way to reach new customers, and especially Gen Z customers, which is kind of funny. You go to any of these marketing conferences and you have 25 through alive, people asking, how do we reach the kids these days? And I think we have that unique perspective, as you mentioned, kind of a closed-ended network of really engaged Gen Z consumers, a really ripe network to build into. On the consumer side, I think the value is having new experiences with friends. So much of our kind of day-to-day is reduced down to transactions and interacting online. What we're trying to do with Claim is actually bring us back to a time when you went out and you did things with friends more often, you had new experiences. And we think that that's what makes this even more powerful than just a brand discovery tool. It's really a social experience platform in a way.

Yeah, that's very cool.

So let's unpack that a little bit. So on the brand side, if I'm a brand owner and I've got products, I'm in a marketplace somewhere selling online, etc., how do I reach this customer base, this community that you're building within Claim?

Yeah, so it's pretty easy to get started on Claim. We can have our brands up and running in 24 hours. And the way we do that is We basically will figure out who your best customers are in our network, and we will drop those customers a claim, which is basically a trading card. And so maybe to use an example, if we were talking about Sweetgreen, which is the salad company taking the country by storm, we would drop a Sweetgreen claim to customers who hadn't been there before.

Yeah.

And it creates a moment of magic for that customer because once a week we have the drop at Claim and everyone comes onto the platform at the exact same time and have this moment of magic where they're unwrapping their card for the week. And if it's a Sweetgreen card, they're seeing kind of the Sweetgreen card with the salad there. It gets people thinking emotionally or physiologically, they're hungry and they're going to go out and try that brand for the first time. And so from a marketer's perspective, there are no integrations to get started. There's no upfront cost. I'll save the sales pitch, but the reality is we just give you distribution to this really engaged network from a marketing perspective that you can't really access otherwise.

That's very cool. How are you seeing the impact on that on platforms or websites or commercials? Like, how does that impact the sales, the connectivity, the buying power, or even the brand distribution of somebody bringing their products and brands onto this?

Yeah, so the status quo right now as a marketer is I only have a few tools to pull from, right? I have the Googles, the TikToks, the Metas, and what have you. And I think there's all this pent-up dissatisfaction with those tools. Costs are going up. You're at the whim of this algorithm. I've had marketers tell me it is a drug, and once you're on this drug, it's really hard to get off the drug, meaning Facebook, Instagram. And so that's the status quo that they're dealing with, and that's why we have so many people banging down the doors trying to test this new thing. I think the way then that we are able to get those consumers in the door the first time is by really high-intent targeting. So we have access to transaction histories on Claim for consumers. To give you an idea of what that looks like is, Neil, if you onboard onto Claim, you link your bank account or your credit cards via Plaid. And that gives us 2 years of transaction history that we can very clearly find who has been to a place and who hasn't and who might be a good customer. Now, there's a whole conversation around data privacy and security, which is very core to everything we do. But that level of first-party data, especially for customers that brands don't understand and don't have access to, is a goldmine for us.

Yeah. Yeah, no, that makes sense. And so as that demographic targets, and as that campaign rolls out, am I paying for the campaign? Am I paying like CPM costs? How is it equatable to one of the other marketing platforms?

Yeah, so the closest thing you can compare it to is a CPA on Facebook, for example. And marketers have a good sense of this for the most part. They'll say, hey, my CPA right now, my target's $25 or $35, obviously industry dependent, company dependent. But the way that we work with brands is we'll say, let's set a target for this month, CPA and a budget. We're going to go out and just acquire as many new customers to you as possible. And at the end of the month, we'll say, here's our report. Here's how many customers we actually did go acquire. And that's the invoice that we provide for them. So it's a performance-based and win-win structure that I think, again, just gets brands really excited about this tool.

Yeah.

So the consumer-driven side of that, if I'm a consumer, don't have a brand or product, and I'm coming to this and I want to use it, what am I going to gain as a consumer?

deals?

Am I gaining first access to products that are not on the market? Like, what am I getting out of it?

Yeah, it's, it's, you can think of it as an offer or a deal. So we launched on college campuses across the country. And so when I mentioned Gen Z earlier, our demo is 18 to call it 24. Obviously, some folks graduate, which is great too. But what they are getting when they join is call it $5 to $15 to go try a brand for the first time. And I'll note there that I say $5 or $15, But part of the magic of Claim is actually building an experience that doesn't have numbers in it, which is kind of a paradox. It's like, how do you build this consumer platform based on transactions but not have numbers? And that's actually part of our secret sauce in a way, because if we put a photo of a salad in front of you, we've A/B tested this a lot, it is a far different reaction than if we say, here's $5 or 50% off or what have you. It gets people thinking right brain versus left brain in a way and reacting more emotionally and therefore They're much more likely to go try that place for the first time.

Now you keep saying salads. What about double cheeseburgers? What about like—

Oh, totally. We work— so, so our kind of ideal customer profile is a lot of fast casual restaurants, coffee shops on the kind of in-person side. And then we work with e-commerce as well. So direct to consumer companies in beauty, apparel, fashion, what have you, all of that works because Claim in a way doesn't touch any sort of checkout flow online or doesn't even touch a point of sale system in person. It's all on the credit card level. So when you swipe that card, we get that transaction that enables us to send a Venmo back to the customer. So when you think about the consumer flow, what it looks like is, Neil, you come to the drop on Thursday, you get, you get whatever your brand is for that week. Let's say it's a coffee somewhere you haven't been before. You're going to go try that coffee place. We'll get a ping in our system that Neil affirmatively went there and we'll send you back a Venmo. And we just repeat that loop over and over. It's a delightful loop for the customer because they're not only getting notification from us saying, you went and tried it, good job, confetti. But they're also getting a Venmo, which helps from a distribution perspective as well.

Interesting. So if I do this as like a local coffee shop or something, and those people continue to repeat every time they come, they're going to get paid basically for engaging with that local business.

Yeah.

So, so there's a, there's a line here and it can be a bit blurry between acquisition and loyalty, but it's a really important point because when people hear claim or they hear rewards, We're often put in that loyalty bucket. What we're really attacking here is acquisition, which is a thornier, more expensive, difficult problem. And a lot of our customers will have spent millions of dollars on their own loyalty programs. And so what it allows Claim to do is sit alongside loyalty. So we're helping you capture the 60, 70, 80% of people who haven't downloaded your app, get them in the door the first time, maybe get them to come back a couple of times and hand them off to your loyalty platform. Rather than just kind of build another loyalty platform of which there are too many in the world.

Is there like a platform online and stuff that doesn't work at, or will it work on every major consumer kind of platform?

Should work with, with most things, whether it's Shopify-based e-commerce stores, Toast, Square, it's at the transaction level. So as long as you have a US bank account, US credit card, we're able to detect most things.

So if they're an Amazon consumer, as long as they have an Amazon card using the same credit card attached to Amazon, the brand on Amazon could connect to them in that way?

Yes. Although I will note that we don't have SKU level data information, right? So that's why the focus here is bringing a new customer in. If we were to say, here's some promo to go try Amazon, we wouldn't be able to see a pass-through of Neil, you bought the window shades or the dog treat or whatever the case may be yet. There is a path to that through receipt scanning, but so much of our ethos is about reducing consumer friction. That to us is a huge point of consumer friction.

Yeah. So really it's localized or direct to consumer channels, not necessarily some of the platforms. Per se.

Okay.

Makes sense. And this is a founder-based thing that you developed? And are you like the only founder or you got a co-founder or how did you—

Yeah. Yeah. So we're, we're a team of 12 now. I started Claim with my closest friend from undergrad. So we've known each other for 14 years and been working on Claim for 2 and a half. So it's definitely been a team effort and a passion project for all 12 of us.

And what was the moment of inception? What got you guys going on this path?

Yeah, I was living in grad school with my co-founder. We had a whiteboard in our dorm room doing the whole ideation thing. And it was really 3 things. One, it was for me a dissatisfaction with social media from the consumer perspective. I've never had an Instagram. I think it's kind of funny, like consumer founder doesn't have Instagram. We've hired for that. But I was really tired of getting marketed to. I was tired of the intrusion there. And I wasn't there on social media to go buy stuff, frankly. I was there to like go see what my friends were doing. And so there's an erosion in social media. That was part of this. As I mentioned earlier, there's the transactional feeling of, oh, I'm just going to send a Venmo to my friend. And so our interactions are now ones and zeros, and that doesn't feel right. And then lastly, Tap, my co-founder and I were thinking a lot about private property and what private property could look like on the internet. And so in a way, Claim is our first test into that space, which we've seen in gaming, we've seen in things like Web3, but what would it look like to own an asset online? We think the first versions of that, unsurprisingly, are branded trading cards with cash value. And so Claim is a set of tests towards that goal.

Got it.

Cool.

So were you self-funded? Did you go out and raise capital or how did you get your first prototype in the market?

Yeah, so we got our first prototype off the ground. Obviously the company has changed a lot since then. Startups are this, and hopefully the slope is up and to the right, but it's definitely a sinusoidal curve. We raised a pre-seed round of $2 million from Sousa Ventures and Box Group, 2 Silicon Valley and New York-based VCs. And then we followed up with a seed round that we raised last year, last May, led by Sequoia Capital, who was the first investor in companies you've heard of, Apple, Google, WhatsApp, Instagram, the name, the list goes on, but we're definitely trying to build a generational company here. And Tap and I realized that it's part of what we took on is Claim is either going to be worth a hell of a lot of money or it's going to be worth zero. And that's what we're chasing.

Yeah, no, that's very cool. Ultimately, the goal is to build to exit or just to build and see where it goes. Or what are you, what's your strategic plan for Claim?

I think every founder should, should build to exit.

Obviously, I think about, I just leading witness, your honor. But I was hoping that's what you're going to say, but not everybody says that. Goal, obviously to build up. Who's your target acquisition?

Yeah, I think Claim fits really nicely into a bunch of different acquisition scenarios, whether it's fintechs, whether it's big banks and issuers, Amex of the world. Obviously there's reward platforms out there. Ibotta, for example, filed to go public yesterday with their S-1, which is a, I think a good sign for the marketing tech space in general and the IPO market. So I would love to one day have a path to taking this thing public or getting acquired for the right price. I think for us now, we're just deep heads down trying to build a great product. And I don't think you want to build for acquisition too early as a founder.

Yeah, it really depends upon the scope of which, what the outcome is going to be like. If you're building for the end in mind, and technically you've already started that process, there could be a bit of semantics in there, but we always encourage people to build with the end in mind. So whenever they start, the framework is already in place, the foundation's in place, and the growth is in place, which you've done clearly. And kudos to you, but not having been maybe raised funds in the past, how difficult of a process, how many nos did you get on your path to securing your first seed capital?

Yeah, well, we raised last year, which was a lull in the fundraising market. I think we're now seeing glimmers of hope for other founders out there in the past few months. Capital calls on VC funds are coming back, reaching near all-time highs in the past couple of years. So I would say that we didn't pick the right timing, but sometimes you don't have that liberty. For us, the way I would answer your question is we certainly got nos, but the nos came from funds that we didn't think necessarily were values aligned or vision aligned with us. And what I mean by that is when we had conversations with folks that ended up investing or ended up getting term sheets from, those were dreaming conversations. We weren't kind of at the 100-foot level. We were at the 10,000-foot level or the 30,000-foot level. to begin with. It was, what if we could do this? Or have you thought about this? Or here's what gives us the most energy, which is a very different tenor of a conversation than tell us about your week 8 retention and your churn and why you haven't done this.

Was this the first startup or is this something, a second or third attempt at a startup for you?

First venture-backed startup. First venture-backed. Okay.

And just out of curiosity, since you guys started it at the whiteboard level in your dorm room, did you actually finish your degrees or did you bail out and go forward in this?

Yeah, we did. My co-founder was 2 years ahead of me in the grad school program. So he actually went over to Microsoft to work on their AI team and I had to poach him back to go start this thing, but I did finish my degree. It was actually fun, Neil. I wrote my master's thesis on this company as a business plan. So I was able to kind of kill 2 birds with one stone there, graduated, and then started full-time May '22.

Do you feel like that slowed you down? That helped you move forward? Did you feel like that was a good part of the process or?

I think on net, it would've been nice to be spending 110% of my time on Claim versus 95% of my time. But the network that I was able to build there, especially with faculty and the like, has paid dividends going forward.

Yeah, it was smart. I mean, it's just different school of thought there as to how and who could be successful, but it sounds like—

Yeah, there's a lot of glorification of dropping out, the Thiel Fellowship, what have you. I think everyone can choose their own path. For me, it was, I was 2 and a half years into a 3-year program and it was important for me to finish it.

Yeah, no, that's amazing. And everybody has different affects of answers to that particular question based on the results.

I think we're lucky too. We raised the pre-seed when I had a semester to go and talking about being aligned with investors, they were like, yep, go finish it. Go do your thing. Like we're ready when to launch.

Yeah. And that's good. And I was going to ask the support group you've got around you with Sequoia and stuff. Have they been really good helping you pick up the challenges and opportunities? Have they been good in consulting you?

I would assume that.

Yeah.

Okay. There's kind of 2 answers. One, Sequoia has been incredible, obviously big brand, what have you, but the attention to detail and the willingness for them to invest beyond the capital that hit the bank account on closure has been phenomenal. 2 examples I'll give you. One is they have so much internal tooling and internal expertise, not only about how like founders have stubbed their toes candidly in the last 50 years and kind of aggregated that up and created a playbook for founders. That's one, which is a curriculum, almost like a mini YC that That we went through. The second thing is we worked with their PR team to do all of our PR, which was fantastic as a founder, just trying to learn what getting our message out into the world looks like, what best in class looks like. And lastly, I don't think many people know this, but Sequoia has some incredible designers in-house and their job is to help amplify founders and storytell and actually do the design work. And so we've been able to partner with them on everything from our web presence, our website, on feature production and actually storytelling what we're building in the app. And so it's been a great value-add partnership so far.

No, it's tremendous foundation and not having to go out and try to establish those relationships and muddle through finding out who's good at what they do in those areas. That's very powerful for you to get up and get that message and get the specific narrative down. How fast is the platform growing for you guys right now?

Yeah, we're growing high hundreds to low thousands per day. The way we think about launch is a little bit different though. We're launching at college campuses and we're not taking the guardrails off this thing yet. And so you have to have an EDU address at one of our campuses. I'll have to add you to the allow list, Neil, if you want to get on.

But yeah, I don't think I have an EDU address. I did, I did bail out of college.

So, well, well, we can get your email on our website. This may be your high voltage email.

Very kind.

And the way we're thinking about this is if we can grow in these really dense networks, that obviously is great for word of mouth growth. It also helps us test what this two-sided platform or marketplace looks like. I think what we wouldn't want to do necessarily is over-index on one side of the marketplace or the other. For example, we go all in on consumer growth and we don't have merchants to sort of help that marketplace balance or vice versa. And so the more that we can figure out what balance looks like at the micro scale, then we can start to progressively open this thing up. And I think when we do this, the sky's the limit.

Yeah. And that just gave me a couple of names that I need to introduce you to. As I'm talking, it happens when I do this kind of call. I'm like, hey, there's like 3 names and things that pop up. So I got a couple of names to introduce you to after this who I think will help you out. Make sure. And it is smart to balance that because that was going to be one of my questions. Where are you kind of heavily leveraging your marketing and PR right now? Is it to the brand building side or to the growth of the consumer side? Obviously, the goal there would be balance in parallel, but I would say it'd be better to falter a little on too many brands than not enough consumers or vice versa. I could really see The impact being not enough opportunity for those who are in the platform to stay in the platform and continually use it over and over and again, which is where I see the brand side or having enough brands is really going to be the most important part, I think.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And what's nice about that, whether you look at Airbnb or any other kind of successful marketplace, the supply side is often more difficult to acquire in a way, but it's also more patient. And so we've had very few brands churn off of Claim. Because even if we're not able to meet their goals initially, they know that we can eventually meet them as we grow. And so we've knocked it out of the park for so many brands on our platform who are willing to wait for the right match between our geographic overlap and campus launch strategy and their own marketing goals.

Yeah.

Consumers, on the other hand, you can grab a consumer's attention with $5. Whether you get them to stay or not is a function of really 2 things. One, are there the supply? Are there the brands for them to come back and want to try new things? But 2, can you build a really fun experience? I think Part of the magic that we've built with a Gen Z-focused app is a fun and delightful experience where you're seeing what your friends are doing. You're seeing where your friends are shopping. You're finding excuses to go do things together. Yeah. Which that's sort of what we're wanting of it.

That's really smart. I like that ability to see, because a lot of times we were like, where did you get that product from? Or how did you get it? Or who did you buy it from, et cetera. And we have to have more of a coordinated activity or event that feels some, some cases forced to try to share that experience about a product or a service that you love. And there's been a lot of businesses that have tried to meet that gap in the middle. And I like the way you kind of coordinated the two. It's what's smart, I think, about this idea. It's frictionless in the ability for someone to take a brand and discover a brand and then have all their friends and their network understand what they liked about that brand and where they got it from.

I think that's exactly right. And to double-click on that, Neil, we see with Gen Z, they didn't grow up with traditional advertising and they have a love-hate relationship with brands and influencers. And so When you see people hawking products online, I think that there's a natural aversion to that among our customers, which is very different than if you see your buddy or your friend who has a cool new belt or just tried this food place. It's a very different experience. And I think what we do with Claim, because again, it is transaction-level data, is it's authentic social proof.

Yeah.

It's really easy to go out on Instagram and show yourself partying the night before and look amazing. It's harder to fake transactions. And so I think If you have tried a new brand, you really have tried that new brand, which is cool.

That's smart. And that creates credibility, especially amongst the brands and brand discoverability, I think would be a big component of that too. If you've got a brand that you really want to be discovered by that age group and demographic, and you want to see the true virality come through that you're going to see with this kind of platform.

Exactly. For one of our brands, a streetwear brand out of New York called For Others, when we did a drop, they saw 50% conversion lift because this is just accessing a demographic that they can't otherwise. penetrate via typical advertising.

Do you base it on kind of an AOV? Do you have a specific like customer lifetime value that you're discerning through that? What are the, what are the primary metrics you're basing it off of for your brands?

Yeah, it depends on the customer. Talking to a small business owned and operated food restaurant is very different than talking to a scaled ecommerce platform. So we'll try to work within the confines of their own KPIs and goals. Typically, we'll say, what are your CPA or return on ad spend ROAS targets? We're going to match and exceed those targets. And so again, it's very CPA, very kind of goals and performance based. For food, it might be simpler. It might be incrementality, or can we bring more customers in the door the first time and show that they become good customers? And you and I might call that LTV. We might just call that revenue increase in, in, or, or increased sales in the restaurant context.

Yeah, no doubt about it. Well, dude, we covered a lot in this short timeframe. I love the way you've got a good handle on your narrative, your business, the model. And the value proposition is very smart and I appreciate it a lot. Is there a question I didn't ask you about all that, that maybe you want to cover real quick that I missed?

Yeah. So, so 2 things. One, this blending of kind of digital and physical, I think is really important to what we're doing with Claim. We did a Pokémon Go style drop a couple of weeks ago where we said, go to this place and there's a little radius on your map and you're going to go with friends and unwrap something. And what we found was people sprinted to get there. We actually accidentally put the drop on the wrong location. We put it on a highway in Boston.

Oops.

And one of the users texted us and he's like, hey, you put the drop on the highway. And we said, whoa, my bad. We're so sorry. We fixed it now.

Right.

And he's like, no, I'm at the highway. Like, leave it here. And so I do think that there's this really interesting digital physical kind of hybrid that gets people out of their dorm rooms. It gets people on the street with their friends. That's really interesting to play into.

Yeah.

The other thing that I just wanted to briefly mention is that in consumer, one of the lessons that we hold really dearly is simplicity and frictionlessness really matters. We talked about it earlier, Neil, but we had this epiphany a couple months ago where we actually ripped out 60% of the app's features and we've since grown 8x. And on one hand, it's like, what the heck? Like you ripped out all these important features, but simplicity. And what we found is we got people thinking about on our team, what is the core loop? How do we reinforce that core UX loop? And once we did that, growth went up. We've had session times increase 40% since we ripped out those features, which is again, really counterintuitive. We thought we were building this entire social shopping wraparound experiences where we'd send you out on quests and do all these things. And the reality was, if we can build a really interesting social proof-based shopping platform, there's really something here to tap into.

No, that's great. Simplicity can rule the day, really. I mean, at the end, we think features and functions, and in reality, as you have mentioned, it's a group and a demographic that's overloaded their entire lives by features and functions and technicality, and they're actually wanting more simplicity, which makes a lot of sense to me looking at it objectively. And of course, listening to you, is there somebody I could introduce you to in my network or a network connection or whatnot? If there's a person you'd love to sit down and have lunch with and pick their brain, who would it be?

I'd have to look specifically within your network, Neil, but a company that I really admire is Lululemon. I think that they've done an exceptional job at marketing across generations, obviously creating a generational brand. It's a company like Lululemon just to pick their brain around how they think about marketing, I think would be absolutely fantastic.

Nice. So not a particular person. And we've had questions, it ranges from Elon Musk to Andre 3000 and Warren Buffett. So I was just curious where you were headed with that.

Oh man, if we could bring, if we could bring Charlie Munger back, boy, that would be fantastic. That would take more than just networking though. That would take some quantum leaps and stuff.

No doubt. I think I'm like, well, everybody's 6 degrees away from something as Kevin Bacon goes. You would definitely see Joe Rogan would be a good podcast for you.

That'd be fun.

Joe, if you're listening to this still, I know you're out there somewhere, then look us up. Sam wants to talk to you. And Lululemon, we're here too. We'll connect with you. I know you're out there. So dude, thank you so much for spending some time with me.

And really fun, Neil.

Thank you, brother. Appreciate you guys. Go to Claim, check it out. You'll see it in the app. You'll see it in the marketplace. Very easy to find on all social networks. Sam, you built something really cool, brother, and I wish you the best at this endeavor.

Thank you, sir. Talk to you soon.

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