287. Michael McLeod | The Executive Function Playbook: Building Independence in Kids with ADHD

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better.

Hello, Book Thinkers family. In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Michael McLeod, author of The Executive Function Playbook: Building Independence in Kids with ADHD. Michael is the founder of Grow Now ADHD and the creator of the Internal Skills Executive Function Strengthening Model. For more than 20 years, he's worked with kids, families, and educators to help young people strengthen the internal skills they need to manage attention, emotion, and daily responsibilities. He's also an award-winning keynote speaker, professional development trainer, co-host of the ADHD Parenting Podcast, and the author of both The Executive Function Playbook and The Executive Function Playbook in Action. In this episode, you'll learn why boredom may actually be one of the most important ingredients for healthy brain development. Why the growing trend of labeling everything as ADHD on social media can create confusion, and what's broken in many traditional education systems when it comes to supporting kids who learn and think differently. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Michael McLeod.

Mike, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. I'm excited to chat with you about your brand new book today, The Executive Function Playbook. And for my first question, I wanna bring you back to your time as a counselor at a residential treatment center and tell me about what did you learn about speech-language pathology for the first time and kind of how did it rock your world?

Yeah, that, that, that is a really fantastic question and, and we're taking it way back. Uh, uh, you know, we're talking like 2010, 2011 here. Uh, this was a really crucial time in my life when I graduated undergrad. I really wanted to go back and get my master's degree to be a teacher. My mom was a teacher for many, many decades, very successful, very decorated educator over in New York. And I needed to get some, you know, some more experience. I had already run several summer camps and worked at, you know, daycares and, you know, other, you know, various things working with youth. But this was much more of a professional environment where it was a residential treatment facility where the kids had significant needs. So they had to live full-time on campus and go to school on campus. They rarely saw their parents. And I was able to become a— they called it a milieu therapist there. And I worked directly with the students in their cottages where they lived and also at the school that was on campus. And it was an incredible experience working with individuals that had been there for many years. And it was my first chance to really build relationships with much older adults in the workplace who had decades of experience. So I learned so much from such incredible workers, such incredible human beings, uh, who developed these lives for themselves. And working with the kids was really, really life-changing. You know, they had such traumatic lives and traumatic experiences and such complex needs, um, that it really taught me a lot. And, um, I, at one point I was a one-to-one to one of the boys, and this boy received speech and language pathology. So of course I was in those sessions and I was able to observe. And from watching that, I realized, hey, you know, being able to work with a student one-to-one is what helps to directly improve their overall quality of life. I'm not just teaching them social studies facts and math facts and science facts and things that now we know in 2026 are just going to be controlled by AI anyway. But, you know, overall, being able to work with students on their overall quality of life really, really intrigued me. And I can help these kids speak better, feel better about themselves, make friends more, things that really are truly, actually important. Uh, so from my experience of observing speech and language pathology, I went back to, uh, college. I got my second bachelor's degree in speech and language pathology and stayed through all the way towards getting my master's and, uh, began my career as a speech and language pathologist, which was, uh, quite the journey. And that's what brought me from New York down to the Philadelphia region and that led me into the, you know, the beginning stages of developing GROW NOW.

I will go back in time again, but why don't you tell everybody, since you brought it up, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about GROW NOW and some of the services that you provide today?

Absolutely. So GROW NOW is a nationwide and also international leader on ADHD and executive functions. Um, back in 2016, I developed the Internal Skills Model for strengthening executive functions and resiliency. Um, and really it came from my first year as a speech and language pathologist, I worked with a group called the Focus Foundation down in Annapolis, Maryland, and I learned very quickly that there's very little out there for kids with ADHD. They're being sent to counseling and talk therapy and occupational therapy and all of these things that we find out are not science-based, are not evidence-based, and are not moving the needle. And it's really affecting their long-term outcomes. And things have only gotten worse since the rise of screens and the rise of online games and It's the ADHD kids that are the biggest victim of big tech's mass marketing and fear-based marketing. So I developed the internal skills model because I realized that ADHD and executive functions were so misunderstood and looked at as this external-based disorder. So I developed the internal skills model based on internal skills, not external behaviors, combined with parent coaching, teacher training. And we did a year-long research study on it, saw great results, and really everything's expanded from there. You know, Grow Now has been, you know, sure, we have our social media, our Instagram, our podcast, things like that, but it's really the success of the model that has allowed us to grow nationwide and internationally.

You said something that we'll dive into a little bit deeper in just a few moments. You said ADHD kids are the biggest victims of big tech. And as we continue to reveal some of the notes that I have from your book, I think that that statement will end up making a lot of sense for the audience. So audience members, just kind of keep that in the back of your head. Before we get there though, Mike, what were some of the early misconceptions you saw about ADHD in the public versus the research that you started to uncover once you got into this space?

That's a fantastic question. So really overall, both ADHD and executive functions are still to this day so incredibly widely misunderstood. People still think that ADHD is an attention disorder and it's all about attention and focus and hyperactive kids who can't sit still and inattentive kids who just daydream and stare out the window all day. All of that is not very accurate and also not very helpful. If we don't understand what ADHD specifically is, we can't best treat it and assist these kids. And this heavy focus on attention and focus causes these kids to get mislabeled as lazy, noncompliant, disinterested. Just, you know, they just need more discipline. They just need more, you know, more strict parents, all that kind of stuff. It's nonsense. And it really does not end up helping these kids and further increases their negative self-talk and negative self-image, which is exactly what you don't want to do. So really what ADHD is, is it's a developmental disorder of executive functioning. And just like ADHD, executive functioning is so incredibly misunderstood. People still to this day, you mention executive functions, they think it's time management, organization, time management, organization, messy backpacks, messy folders, messy bedrooms. And that is nonsense. That is the smallest possible fraction of what executive functioning is. Executive functions are the greatest predictor of success for human beings. You need executive functioning to move out of your parents' house, Get a job, keep a job, make friends, keep friends, and live independently. A far greater predictor of success than your GPA, your grades, your high school diploma, your college diploma. It is the most important set of skills a human can develop. It's truly the part of the brain and the set of skills that separate human beings from all other living species. We have executive functions. They don't. So these are the most crucial set of skills. And really what, you know, I break it down in the book, I break down executive functions into the 4 pillars. So it's not external organization, external time management, it's self-awareness and the ability to understand the things you do affect others and affect yourself. So it's the beginning of cause and effect thinking of I have power over my world, I can change my world. It's self-regulation of emotions, language, body behavior. Towards various environments, towards various stimuli, self-motivation towards non-preferred tasks. And in today's world, the ability to motivate yourself towards anything non-screen-based, like I insinuated earlier. And then self-evaluation, the ability to learn from past experiences and apply it to the present. So we're not repeating the same mistakes and getting into the same argument with mom and the same negotiation with mom and the same horrible morning routine homework, evening routine every single day. So it's those 4 pillars that cause individuals to have messy backpacks, messy folders, 'cause they're not self-aware that that's even a problem. They're not regulated and motivated enough to do that incredibly boring task of cleaning a backpack or cleaning their room, and they can't self-evaluate and think about how good they will feel and how much it will help them to do something about it now. So we focused on these external behavioral-based things for so long, all these checklists and countdown timers and behavior charts, all these adult-prompted short-term temporary Band-Aids do nothing for these kids. We have to strengthen the internal skills. We need some parent coaching to change the environment, give the parents some confidence to step into their parental authority and give the kids what they need most, a strong, confident, loving leader. And that really, really improves outcomes.

So much to unpack, Mike. So much to unpack. You started off your answer by saying that ADHD is not a focus disorder, essentially, which is what all of us think. So if you could rename ADHD, what would you rename it to? Because I think that the name itself, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, is that right?

Yep. Attention.

Yep. It's incorrect. So what would you rename it to?

So my favorite name to rename it to has been pushed by some of my favorite role models in this field. Of course, Dr. Russell Barkley, the worldwide leader on ADHD who's just retired, uh, Sarah Ward and Kristen Jacobson from Cognitive Connections, who are some of my favorites, uh, Dr. George McCloskey, Ryan Wechselblatt, the ADHD Dude, my podcast co-host on the ADHD Parenting Podcast. Uh, really what we do is we, we want to change it to Executive Functioning Developmental Disorder, EFDD, because ADHD is the preeminent disorder of executive functioning Period. And Dr. Russell Barkley talks about how it's not attention deficit, it's self-regulation deficit.

Hmm.

It's not hyperactivity, it's the inability to regulate your body. It's not inattentiveness, it's the inability to regulate your thoughts and your body and, and, and your mind. Uh, not, not your body, but your mind. Uh, and overall, that's really what it's all about. So this is all about executive function. It's not, my child has ADHD, but he really just struggles with executive functions. They are one and the same. And yes, you can have executive functioning challenges and not have ADHD. You could be depressed. You can have, you know, dyslexia as your primary diagnosis, whatever it may be. But if you have ADHD, your problem starts and ends with executive functioning.

Yeah, you hear all the time, like, of course kids with ADHD have a tough time focusing in school because they have all this extra energy. But they're forced to sit in a chair for 8 hours learning things that they don't enjoy. And it's like, okay, the problem does exist, but not for those reasons. It's not that they have all this extra energy. It's that what's happening internally is delayed compared to the rest of the kids that they're being compared to.

Absolutely.

And that's a, you know, that's a huge— that's a, that's a two-pronged question because, you know, the, the American model of education, which is lecture-listen, you know, I'm going to lecture, you listen, memorize this, regurgitate onto a test, forget it, move on to the next one. It's been a broken system for hundreds and hundreds of years. Well, you know, not hundreds and hundreds of years, but a very, very long time.

Couple hundred years.

Couple hundred years. Absolutely. But overall, you know, you know, number one, we live in a world now where we have to understand executive functions are not taught through lectures. Executive functions are too crucial a set of skills, too important a set of skills where they are truly stringed through relationships and experiences, varied experiences and interpersonal relationships, doing as many different things as possible and, and meeting as many different people as possible of different backgrounds, different race, different religion, different everything. Just meeting people that are different from you help grow the brain. This is why people who travel a lot and see other cultures and those kinds of things really end up, you know, gaining a greater sense of maturity because they know things beyond their hometown, beyond the walls of their home. And if we look at the youth of today, we have to understand we are currently in the worst youth mental health crisis of all time. And we all know what's happening. We just don't want to admit it because the only option is the incredibly scary thing of having to remove these screens. But just like Jonathan Haidt talks about in his book, The Anxious Generation, screens are experience killers.

Hmm.

And the only way you're going to strengthen executive functions is through varied experiences. And with the introduction of smartphones and online games and YouTube and Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, with the introduction of those things, we have stolen the 3 crucial things from childhood: play, boredom, and struggle. We have stolen those things from childhood. And ever since we did that, the youth mental health crisis began. And this is why kids are having a much harder time in school. because they're also not really moving and playing and being bored outside of school like we all used to be. You know, they're not staring out the window and watching raindrops race to the bottom of the window on the school bus home anymore. They have the world's greatest entertainment system in their pocket. And when your brain doesn't learn how to self-regulate through boredom, it learns how to self-regulate through instant gratification. And school is the opposite of instant gratification. Sitting at a very hard, uncomfortable desk, Listening to a lecture on the periodic table is the opposite of instant gratification. So we have to think about how we're hardwiring their brains. And schools have had this great idea of, oh, let's just gamify education now, which is making it so much worse. And, you know, education and the introduction of edtech and laptops and personal one-to-one devices has just been an absolutely unmitigated, pathetic disaster.

1,000 exclamation points on all of that. I mean, I saw recently that, that for the first time Gen Z has a lower average IQ than the previous generation, millennials. First time in human history since we've been able to document things like reading comprehension and IQ and basic math skills, etc. And it's directly correlated to the introduction of technology in the school system.

Correct.

And you're right, I mean, being bored is One of the most healthy and positive things for kids and teens.

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You, you mentioned this briefly in the book, but I wanted to ask you a little bit more about it since I have a 17-month-old son now. Too, too early to see if there's any type of, uh, delay in the prefrontal cortex developing or whatever. But we're looking at, okay, does he go into the traditional education system, or do we look at an alternative like Montessori, which focuses a lot more on the varied experiences and the interpersonal communication, which are the things that help you develop executive function? Inside of the body and inside of the brain. So what are your thoughts on traditional versus alternative systems of education, and is there one that you prefer?

Well, hopefully by the time your son is grade level, kindergarten, first grade, hopefully by then we've done away with edtech and we've ended ended edtech forever.

I mean, I hope.

Yeah, let's let's let's hope so. Let's hope so. It's been a massive sixty billion dollar mistake, and now. schools are saying, we don't have enough money to do photocopies anymore. We don't have enough money to do textbooks, which is absolute nonsense. Big tech should give that money back. They have enough, so they should be able to buy that stuff. But what you're referring to is from a great friend of mine, Dr. Jared Kouni-Horvath, who wrote The Digital Delusion, a neuroscientist who broke down the science of learning and how it's a very big deal that this generation is less cognitively capable The first one ever that's doing worse than the one before, and it is directly correlated to screens. And we wanna create all these false boogeymen of, you know, processed foods and this and that, whatever. Yeah, none of that stuff is healthy, but it's the screens. We know it. We just wanna pretend it isn't because the thought of having to remove those screens from our kids is absolutely terrifying. But in terms of the education, like you're talking about, sure, if you have an opportunity to send your kid to a project-based learning school, a non-screen-based learning school. You know, there's no— it's no surprise that homeschool rates are absolutely skyrocketing over the past 5, 6 years because parents are fed up with technology and all of the technology that's in schools. You know, some families homeschool for all the wrong reasons and some families homeschool for all the right reasons. And what I love about homeschool is none of the two ever look the same. They're all completely different. The best are the ones that kind of have the pods and the socialization and the experiences and things like that. And it's not just the mom or the dad doing all the work. But there are a lot of public schools now that are going back to paper and pen. There's a lot of incredible teachers that are minimizing the use of technology. So, you know, just like every homeschool is different, let's be honest, every single public school is different because funding is so different. Because for some reason, we had the great idea to have public schools be based off of property taxes, which is a horrible idea, and it creates a lot of differences in schools. public schools, private schools, you know, find out, find out the use of technology, find out, you know, if on rainy days, is your kid gonna be sitting in the auditorium playing on his computer for recess time? You know, that's what a lot of schools are doing now. Find out if your kids are allowed to have phones at school. Find out if your kids are allowed to bring their Chromebook into lunch and have free time. Do they have unsupervised study halls? So, you know, are you really sending your kid to school? Or are you sending them to another building to watch YouTube?

I heard a description of homeschooling, the style where there are pods and there's a little bit more of a community. I heard a description once that was homeschooling is like public school minus government indoctrination. And I think when people hear that, they think of political indoctrination. But now I think the shift is more towards big tech being hand in hand with government indoctrination and like the forced learning on devices and increasing screen time. And so yeah, of course it's on the rise. And I think that the more you share concepts like this, the more people read books like yours, the more parents wake up and they say, I don't want my kid to have less emotional or cognitive abilities than me as the parent. Like, of course you always want your kids to live up to their potential and surpass you as a parent. It's just a natural part of, I think, raising a little kid is you want more for them than you had for yourself. And so, ugh, I hope more people wake up.

I hope so too. I, I, I talk about it all the time and it's probably some of the most controversial stuff I talk about on my social media. There's a lot of people out there that have gotten very, very deep into the world of tech that have been preaching technology as this tool, as this social tool. And there's a lot of people out there that are telling parents that, oh, screens are actually regulating to the neurodiverse brain. Screens actually help ADHD kids. They help ASD kids. You know, it's, it's just, you know, we live in a world of pseudoscience and, um, and it's very easy to get a lot of likes, shares, and follows when you validate parents' emotions and tell them what they want to hear. You know, no parent wants to hear you have to remove screens. Every time I post about it, I get a lot of hate messages and a lot of people screenshotting my stuff and, uh, you know, using it to their own advantage to push a pro-screen agenda. Um, but all the science is there. All the data is This is, this is a youth mental health crisis, and this generation is doing worse than before. So all of the nonsense about screens regulating the neurodiverse brain, that it's a social tool, that kids can be learned skills to balance their screen use. Oh yeah, you can get your kid a phone and he'll learn to balance it. He'll still be able to do homework. He'll still be able to do chores. He'll still be able to do all these non-preferred tasks. That's not going to happen. Adults can't even do that. Adults are addicted to their phones. Adults are grabbing their phones the second they wake up, the second— the seconds before they go to sleep, at every single red light, at a stop sign, they're checking their phone. Adults can't— don't have a balance. But adults do have a fully developed brain because they're above the age of 30 years old. So we do have a fully developed brain where we can be addicted to our phone. It can negatively impact us. Digital dementia is real. Brain rot is real. But once you're 30 years old, yeah, your phone can negatively impact your life, but you can still take care of your kids, take care of your house, pay the bills, go to work, and do all of those things. Our kids with underdeveloped brains, that is not going to happen. There is no such thing as skills or a balance where you give them the most addicting device ever created and they're still able to do the things that are important. It's not going to happen. So the thought, you know, a lot of these parents are victims. You know, this is not parent blaming. They're victims of quite possibly the greatest marketing campaign ever pushed. And once big tech realized, hey, we're actually going to make our most money off of kids, you know, it's kids that can't manage their own screen time. It's kids that can't regulate themselves. We're going to make a lot of money on neurodiverse kids who can't self-regulate. And, and have, and it's very hard for them to make friends. They're really lacking social skills. So let's push this as a social device. Oh, they can play Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, Snapchat, Discord. They can do all these things together and that will help them make friends. And we now have a decade of research to show that all of that is just a false marketing campaign, fear-based marketing, where if you don't buy your kid this device, they're going to be at a disadvantage and you're gonna be the worst parent ever. And we all fell for it. And now we have a decade of research to tell us that it makes kids depressed, dormant, dependent, and antisocial.

I would say outside of reading/self-education in general, and then I also have a travel bug, which I know is important for diversifying your experience and maturing your brain anyway. I would say outside of reading and travel, I would say this subject is becoming one of my most passionate subjects to learn more about because of everything that you just mentioned. And it's, it's been said that today is both the easiest but also the hardest time to become successful as a human being. I mean, I'm 32 years old, Mike, and I say, yeah, it hasn't— I mean, don't get me wrong, it's tough to build and scale a business and provide value and have fun while doing it and manage everything else in life, but it's also never been easier to do That. It's also never been easier to sit around and do nothing and just watch content all day. And I think about these parents who— you said there's a hereditary link. You're far more likely to have an ADHD kid if you are ADHD as well. So you have all of these parents who have a tough time self-regulating and delaying their gratification, et cetera, who are also spending 7 or 8 hours a day on their own devices. And since behaviors are caught, not taught, you can tell your kids, oh, you don't want a device, but all they see is you scrolling on yours. So of course they're going to want their own. There's this fear of missing out. There's all this propaganda. Every other kid has devices all day long in school. Like, it's an uphill battle. So I mean, just thank you for fighting the good fight and bringing up all this controversial content. Let's talk about some more controversial content. Is there— and I'm asking this out of a place of ignorance— is there an overdiagnosing of ADHD so that there can be the overprescribing of medication for ADHD so that Big Pharma can make more money and have customers for life? I mean, is that a subject that you have any thoughts about?

So, so this is—

so this is a—

this is a deep question. First of all, ADHD medication is safe and effective, and it is some of the most researched medication in all of psychiatry and child development. All of the, you know, the nonsense you see about medication on parent Facebook groups and, you know, all the distrust for Big Pharma these days and all of these different things, I get it. But we can't underestimate the benefits of ADHD medication for ADHD kids for further developing their prefrontal cortex. My best advice to parents is do not get your ADHD medication advice from social media, from Facebook, from Instagram, from Snapchat, from people like me. Make sure they're actual— I'm not a doctor. I'm not a neuroscientist. You want information on ADHD medication, you have to listen to Dr. Russell Barkley. Dr. Russell Barkley does not get paid by Big Pharma. He's not trying to push pills on people, none of that kind of stuff. He is an independent individual that looks at the actual research, the facts, and the data. And there is just far too much stigma around ADHD medication, and people need to listen to Dr. Russell Barkley on that. That's the most important thing. And people ask me every day, every time I do a parent support group or a Q&A session with parents, they're always like, Mike, can I get your opinion on medication? And I have to remind them, like, we've gotten so caught up in this whole idea of opinions because we live in this social media influencer type where we're constantly asking people— everybody has a platform now to share their opinion on whatever they want, whether they have the right to give that opinion or not. So like, that's like, you know, asking someone, you know, who grew up on a farm, like, hey, what's your, you know, like, you know, what's your favorite— what's the best city in the world? And they've never left their farm in their entire life, or something like that. I'm just thinking of random ideas.

Oh, I get it.

Yeah, you see it all over the place. But yeah, people are sharing their opinions on things where they don't have the right They don't have the educated background to share their opinion. So I basically tell the parents, I'm not going to give you my opinion on medication. I'm going to tell you the scientific facts that it is safe and it is proven and it is effective. So don't be asking people's opinions. Go off of real data. In terms of the overdiagnosis, you know, I don't think we have enough data to prove that because, you know, number one, have we underdiagnosed for too long, especially in females? Have we— are we getting better at identifying? And then on the second side of things, We now know that screens cause temporary ADHD behaviors. So it's, it's overuse of screens decreases your attention, decreases your self-regulation, makes you more hyperactive, inattentive, quote unquote, and it makes it seem like you have ADHD. But we know that when you have a full detox from screens over, you know, 4 or 5 weeks, a lot of those behaviors go away. So if you are a parent out there that wants to get an evaluation, that is very scared of medication, one of the best things you can do, which, you know, may be a controversial take, may or may not be, is to detox your child's brain from screens, get them out playing, get them off of all the screens, and see if the behaviors persist. I think we're still very, very early in the stages of diagnostics, how to improve it. You know, the screens, this and that. I think this is an area where parents have to do very deep research, speak to licensed physicians, And just make sure that you have conversations with people that have the degrees, that have the background. Talk to the pediatrician, talk to the doctors, and get the right advice. Don't get that from social media. Don't get it from me. You know, speak to the people who know you and know your child as unique individuals.

I think that was a very clear answer. And although you're not a neuroscientist and although you're not a doctor, I'll ask one more follow-up question because I've You'll have a more straightforward take than I think asking ChatGPT would, right? Does, does the standard 80— and I'm not asking this from a point of like contention, like I have a different opinion. I just, I would like to understand it a little bit more because I think I had a different preconception before. Okay, here's my question. Does ADHD medication accelerate the development of the prefrontal cortex so that executive function catches up? Or my— I guess my assumption before was that it was more like a Band-Aid on a symptom, not helping the root cause. But maybe I'm wrong. Um, my assumption was wrong.

It, it's the first thing you said. It speeds up the development of— it speeds up the development of the prefrontal cortex. Absolutely. And we have research, research to prove it. And for anyone who wants more information on that, please, you know, go to YouTube, go to the podcast app and type in Dr. Russell Barkley and hear him talk about it. Never interested in that. Never, never in my life will I be able to explain that as well as Dr. Russell Barkley does. And I— it's, you know, this information is so crucial to the youth of today and this youth mental health crisis and all of these things. I pride myself in saying, you know, go directly to the source. You know, I'm not one of these people that's going to sit here and say, I know everything, I know all the facts, I know all the data. You know, the learning never stops when, you know, when you're an executive functioning specialist and that kind of stuff. And I think it's very, very powerful for parents to hear it directly from Dr. Russell Barkley, Sarah Ward, Dr. George McCloskey, all these incredible people who have influenced me. So, you know, I highly recommend You listen to Dr. Russell Barkley and hear him talk about all of the data, all of the peer-reviewed research not funded by big, big pharma. Take a look at all of that research and see the real benefits of ADHD medication.

I think that was a really optimistic answer for a parent, too, because essentially what's being stated there is that this is not a fixed condition that that has— well, it's not a fixed condition, meaning like you can't influence it at all. If you can accelerate the development of the prefrontal cortex with proper medication and then also all of the tools in these books, that's just so optimistic to hear because you have the ability to help your child, um, you know, regain normal or, or accelerated executive function compared to where they are today. Like, that's just such an optimistic message.

Exactly. And, and, and, you know, I'm not trying to push medication. Again, I'm not a doctor. I don't prescribe medication. I think it, it's a conversation worth having if you're interested in it. Obviously, you can look at the screen detox and things like that, but really at the end, at the end of the day, it's really parent training. You know, these kids are— the whole concept of have your kid talk to a therapist, a counselor, or send them to a, you know, a social skills group, and that person will, will you know, teach them skills where 3 hours later they'll want to yell at mom less, or they'll want to be on their screens less, or they'll be able to do non-preferred tasks easier. That's nonsense. That's not going to work. You can't send them to a therapist's office or Zoom with a therapist. I always say, like, your son can work with Dr. Russell Barkley himself 7 days a week, 5 hours a day. If things don't change in terms of parenting, you're not going to see too much natural carryover. So parents have to start looking at therapy and counseling for their child as a group effort where parents have to be involved. You want your kid to do hard things, you have to be able to do hard things. We can't look at therapy and counseling like hiring someone to mow your lawn or hiring someone to clean your house and just throwing money at a problem for a service. We have to recognize, hey, you know, you're gonna have to learn evidence-based strategies of how to best parent this child because since the rise of screens, Not only has it negatively impacted kids and made it the hardest time in history to be a kid, it's also the hardest time in history to be a parent. And screens unintentionally make parents permissive and causes them to constantly overindulge the child to avoid conflict, 'cause this kid can't self-regulate and they're constantly having big behaviors, you know, in years where, you know, it's not appropriate for them to have behaviors because it delays the development of self-regulation skills. So the parents get burnt out and exhausted by every day, the big emotions, the big behaviors. where they just end up throwing screens in their face and overindulging them, and they do it just to preserve their own mental health. This is a very, very hard time to be a parent, and we have to respect that and understand that. That's why parent training has to be empowering, and that's really what I described this playbook as, as a parent empowerment book, your parent empowerment playbook, and that's the feedback I'm getting from the parents who are reading it is, this really empowered me as a parent to developed a structure, and we have the accompanying workbook with it as well to, you know, help them develop that structure and take real science-based practice into action.

Mike, I think one of the things that you've helped me to rethink is, you know, and I think back to my time in grade school, middle school, high school, it's not that there were less kids with with ADHD in my classroom. It's— I mean, there were, there were definitely like far less diagnoses, and, and so it was being underdiagnosed. But it's that those kids with ADHD were getting more varied experiences compared to today because there weren't as many screens.

Yes.

Therefore, they were more well-adjusted, uh, to the neurotypical kids, and it was less obvious. Now it's more obvious because screens are experience killers. Those delays are more exaggerated. And those 4 pillars that you talk about weren't being exercised. Parents weren't thinking about it. They weren't educated. And, uh, that's a big difference. So, I mean, I agree. I think that these are wonderful tools for a parent of, of a kid with ADHD or a parent in general to understand it. Uh, what, what percentage of kids today in the U.S. have ADHD?

I don't have that percentage memorized. That's— I believe, I believe that's in the book, correct?

Yeah, it is. Let me see. Approximately 5 to 7% of children globally and in the United States, an estimated 9.4% of children.

And it's rising and rising every single day. You know what? What you just described, you know, it's very important for parents to remember what school was like and what kids were like and their childhood was like. You know, the fact that our parents just sent us outside and said, be back in time for dinner, come back when the streetlights come on, and we have no Google Maps, no Life360 to figure out how to get home. We had to all do it ourselves and problem solve. That was an incredibly healthy experience. That's a real childhood. Think of the executive functions needed to be able to do that. And it's so sad that kids don't do that anymore because the outside world has literally never been safer. You know, all of the scary, psychotic, creepy people out there are now on Fortnite, Roblox, and Minecraft. They're all on the internet. Like, like Jonathan Haidt describes, we overprotect kids in the real world. And just the thought of sending your kids outside to play without being supervised scares the hell out of parents. But all of our parents did that every single day, and it was incredibly healthy and beneficial for us. But now the chances, the chances of something bad happening to them outdoors is so incredibly slim But we send them on the internet, which is just the most unregulated, just really just disgusting place. We all know this. The internet is a very wild place, and it is no place for a child. It's completely unregulated, and they can find something horrible in a matter of seconds. And there's all these anonymous messages and avatars and usernames. You have no idea who you're talking to. It's very, very scary. So we have to really understand exactly what's happening and You know, I was listening to a great podcast recently from my friend, Dr. Jared Horvath, and he was talking about how, you know, there's the teacher shortage and teachers are leaving the field in droves. And it's because teachers don't get paid enough. Teachers have the same salary now that they had 20, 30 years ago. It's the exact same salary. They're still getting paid that same amount. The only difference is, let's be honest, kids are crazier. You go, you go, go and observe any classroom, whether it's a public school, or a super rich elite private school, any classroom is going to be 10% teaching, 90% behavior management. These kids can't self-regulate. They can't sit and listen. And it's like, I didn't get into this field to be a behavior management, to be a behavior specialist. I got into this to teach kids and help them and improve them. And everything is just constant redirection and prompting and scaffolding and all these kinds of things. And it's very, very hard because we're basically dealing with a brand new species of human beings because we've stolen play, boredom, and struggle.

Yeah, you had a great Mr. Rogers quote somewhere in the book that I remember about boredom and play, or like, play is the work for kids or something like that. And yeah, all of my, all of my fondest memories, Mike, of growing up, my parents had a house that was open to the woods in the backyard, and we built a tree fort. We made— I mean, I had 3 little brothers, so we had endless games, and we were out in the woods every single day making things up. And my nickname when I was little was Nature Nick.

Oh yeah, there we go.

Any tree and dig a hole and just have fun and make stuff up. And you're right, in that moment of boredom today, instead of being inventive and going inside and Trying to create a game from scratch, being curious. Kids are grabbing a device and they're consuming instead of creating. And that's a really big difference in terms of developing. So what a great message you have.

So, so, so, so let's, let's break that down for a second here. Your nickname as a kid was Nature Nick because you did so much play outdoors in nature, unstructured, unsupervised. Here you are as a young adult, 32 years old, And your passion is reading books and educating, which has a direct correlation to maturity, intelligence, and all of those different things. What a surprise. What a coincidence that this young boy who spent his entire childhood in nature playing became an educated adult that has the self-regulation skills to sit and read multiple books from start to finish. What a surprise. Everyone always thinks it's, oh, this person needs to sit and study and all of this. Play is the work of childhood. That quote in the book, play is the greatest form of research. All of that play you did as a kid is the reason why you were able to read all of those thousands of books sitting behind you right now from start to finish. All of that play you did as kids as Nature Nick now is why you have the internal skills. to sit there and read books without picking up your phone every 5 seconds.

Interesting, but factual. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think, you know, one of the ways that I've described this to people over the last couple of years, although your description in this correlation makes a lot more sense, I've always told people that I just, you know, I developed the ability to delay gratification. And I think it comes through all of that unstructured play that you talked about. And, you know, I've deliberately extended or expanded my attention span because I understand the importance of reading these books and that my future self will thank me. But it all comes back to what you just talked about, that unstructured play and the development of those pillars inside. So. Yeah, I mean, just such a clear message for all of the parents in the audience or all of the young professionals that'll have kids over the next couple of years. Get your kids outside, put the screens down, allow them to play.

It's no coincidence. It's no coincidence, like, for you to say, my nickname was Nature Nick and I played outside in nature in the woods all the time. And now here you are, an adult who's made a career around books. You're a young dad. You're physically fit. You're wearing a triathlon shirt. Clearly, you have your priorities in order here. Clearly, you know how to delay gratification, focus on self-care, and do things now that help you later. That's executive functions. What can I do now that improves my future self? What can I do now that makes my future better? And that seems like the definition of you, of the life you've created for yourself. And you know, your wife and your child and all those kinds of things is your ability to be a future thinker. And all of that is directly correlated to all of the outdoor play you did. And you can make a very, very strong argument that all of that outdoor play is what set you up for success, even far greater than anything you experienced at school.

Hmm. Oh, I would definitely say that. Yes. The public education system almost killed my love of reading, Mike. There we go. A subject for another day.

Okay.

Thank you for the validation on this. And, and I'll say that I still struggle with screen addiction as an adult, sometimes less than most people. I'm super aware of it, but it still creeps in. The propaganda is strong. And the, the funny part— I read a book called Beyond Brain Rot recently, Mike— the funny part is that the fear of missing out that we experience from our devices is a really interesting one. Because we fear missing out something that we don't even know what it is. Like, if you know that you're not going to the same party that you've been to 8 times and all your friends are there and you know exactly what that experience is going to be, you know you're missing out on it. With Instagram and Snapchat and TikTok and the variability that increases dopamine, it's like you don't even know what you're missing. You have a fear of missing out something that's unknown. Like, that's kind of weird. So something that I'm, I'm just trying to figure out internally. As we wrap up the podcast, Mike, I wanna give you another chance to talk a little bit about Grow Now because I'm sure there are a lot of parents in the audience today that'll go ahead and buy a copy of the book, but they might need help implementing what they learn. Share everything that you've got going on right now.

Sure, of course. Yeah, so you can find more about me on Instagram @grownowadhd. My website is grownowadhd.com. You can learn more about our fully individualized, never one-size-fits-all executive functioning internal skills training for students of all ages. So we have different coaches on the team that specialize in different age groups. We have a college success program. We have a young adult independence program, job coaching program, homeschool program, and fully personalized parent training. So parents, you know, reach out to me and they expect it to be like very structured. and very rigid and module 1, module 2, uh, and they expect to be in it for weeks and weeks and months and months and years. No, this is meant to be a very short, productive process because we give the parents the tools, we give the teachers the tools, we give the students the tools where this can be a very short, productive process for you. This whole concept that therapy and coaching needs to be a multi-year-long process is ridiculous. If there's one industry that should have the opposite of client retention, it should be therapy and counseling and coaching. Uh, and that's exactly what we do. It's fully personalized. Short, quick, no contracts, no commitments. Everything's based on progress. So learn more about our parent training and our executive functioning internal skills training for all ages on our website. You can fill out the 2 forms there. We do an executive functioning summer camp, which is an ex— which is an experience-based and relationship-based summer camp, uh, in Philadelphia, Los Angeles, um, and also Washington, DC. Uh, you can listen to the ADHD Parenting Podcast with my friend Ryan Wechselblatt, the ADHD Dude. A very popular podcast. And if you happen to work in a school or be a parent who has a kid in a school, my overall role now is I travel the country and internationally providing professional development to school districts, public schools, private schools, parent training, student training professionals, where I train them on the internal skills model and very, very practical, practical, practical, practical strategies of what to bring into the classroom, What to do at home and all of that. So all the information's on the website. Definitely take a deep dive there and learn more about, you know, why Grown Now is so different from everything else that's out there.

Well, of course, we'll have all of the links in the show notes below, as well as to the Executive Function Playbook and the playbook in action. What a wonderful conversation, Mike. I have one final question for you before I let you go. If unfortunately these books were deleted from the face of the earth and Grown Out disappeared, but you could leave the world with just one simple message about ADHD, what would that be?

Oh man.

So, um, it, it, I would say overall, your ADHD child is capable. Uh, I think we've fallen into the world now where we treat kids as fragile. Uh, I think a lot of parents have heard the fact that, oh, the ADHD brain is 3 to 5 years delayed. So if they're 10, they really have the brain of a 6 or a 7-year-old. And parents kind of confuse that as, I need to lower the bar and treat them like a 6 or a 7-year-old. That's treating them as fragile. If you treat your child as fragile, they're going to be fragile. You treat, treat them like a baby, they're going to act like a baby. Keep the bar high. Keep expectations high. Your kid can do hard things. The ADHD kid is just going to complain more. They're going to argue more. They're going to negotiate more. They're going to do the things that give them dopamine. The ADHD brain is constantly seeking screens or conflict, screens or conflict. And as long as we give them screens and conflict, they're going to keep getting delayed and keep using those behaviors because they work. The ADHD brain is not a character flaw. It's not malicious. They just do what works. And, and if screens are available to them, They're going to choose screens over every other option. If conflict is available to them, they're going to choose that over every single option. So let's focus on getting rid of the screens, not giving them the fight, not giving them the argument, not giving them the negotiation. Keep the bar high and your ADHD child will reach it.

Hmm. Like I said, such an optimistic message. Uh, thank you for the wonderful conversation, Mike.

Thank you, Nick. Really appreciate you.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers, Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives. And by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something. Thank you.