294. Matt Grace | God Doesn't Relapse: Sex, Drugs, and the Life That Almost Killed Me

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better.

Matt Grace, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books podcast. I'm excited to chat with you today about your upcoming book, God Doesn't Relapse. Tell everyone when the book comes out.

The book launches on August 11th, uh, but it's available for pre-order now on Amazon.

All right, so we'll get that link in the show notes below. Let's cut right to the chase. Who the heck is this book for?

So there are 3 themes to this book. One is enabling. You know, I spent 10,000 hours mentoring families across the country, and one of the reasons why I closed my private practice was because the parents, often of addicts, were unable to put in the simplest of boundaries. And so when you're dealing with life and death, it became very frustrating, and oftentimes the parents were As sick, or if not sicker, than the addict that they were related to. And so I go into— right there, I, I go into, uh, into great detail also about how my father was my greatest enabler. So number one is for families who are related to someone who is struggling with addiction and are at their wit's end. Number 2, how service work and volunteer work can change my life and how I've seen it change other people's lives. Most people do not have the financial resources to hire people like the practice that I used to have because the ancillary services in the addiction space are very expensive. So this is a cost-free way to implement service and some form of prayer into someone who's struggling, into their life. And one of my mentors said, if you want self-esteem, you need to do esteemable things. And addicts need purpose. And the only way that this whole thing is gonna turn around is if we help each other. And then the third theme is prayer. And so what do I mean by that? My book, God Doesn't Relapse, is not a religious book. There are multiple pathways to a higher power. I am trying to reach not just— there's already people who believe in God, but I'm trying to reach atheists and agnostics who have a hard time intertwining God into sobriety. And my answer to them is very simple.

Mm-hmm.

Service can be your higher power. You don't need to believe in God to help someone else, and you definitely don't need to believe in God to make a pot of coffee.

That's a fact. I like that. Um, let's talk about the size of the market here. Uh, in your— in the description of your book, it says more than 48 million Americans are battling substance use disorder. How did we get to this place, man? 48 million of us. That's like 1 out of every 7 people in the United States.

That's exactly what it is. Everybody knows someone or is related to someone who is struggling with a mental health issue or a substance use disorder. And I want to help men and women, but specifically because I work with men on a one-on-one basis when I had my mentoring business. If you go to a morgue right now, 4 out of 5 suicides are young men.

Mm-hmm.

And so they've never been more isolated, uh, more alone, uh, having a hard time finding a woman and a job. And so I'm trying to inspire not just people in recovery, but because I grew up in privilege, I feel that I owe a debt to this world of what I took from it to pay back, to help those that are less fortunate. And I'm trying to inspire men and women to help people who are less fortunate.

Oh, that's amazing, man. Good for you. The world needs more people who are trying to give more than they are take. Now, I know you took for a little while, and the description of your book says a raw, unflinching memoir of addiction, redemption, and faith. I would say that's an understatement compared to what I've been watching on social media. Give everyone a flavor for how real, how raw, how vulnerable and unfiltered you actually are. Let's Open up the floodgates. You can share whatever story you think best encapsulates the person that you used to be that you're now trying to course correct from.

Yeah, so there's a couple. One, before I started drinking, I was a juvenile delinquent. And I'm not just saying— oh, I hear people say, oh yeah, I was bad in school too. No, I was expelled from 2 preschools, and by the time I was in kindergarten, the school therapist told my, my parents that she thought I was going to be a criminal and end up in prison. That was by the age of 6. I was telling my teachers to go fuck themselves, and nobody knew what to do with me. And so my behavior just continued to get worse. One of the things I want to open up about, though, is that drugs and alcohol are being covered a lot online right now, but sex addiction and gambling are kind of been moved, pushed aside. So I talk about how raw that the day that I went to Auschwitz, where my father took 4 Holocaust survivors back to film. Uh, I mean, imagine that all their families were murdered there and get them to go back to that place to film a documentary. And then with the film crew, and then I'm 16 years old and we go back to the hotel and my dad decides to buy me a prostitute. And so I'm 16 years old, you know, looking like I'm 7 and with braces, and I lost my virginity to a prostitute. And 2 months later, at my cousin's bachelor party— prostitutes, drugs, drinking— they got me a prostitute. So the first 2 times I had sex in my life were with prostitutes. And the reason why I'm going there is because porn is so destructive, right? And what's interesting is that one of the posts that I did about my father buying me prostitution All I said was, fathers, don't do that, right? And 2.4 million people viewed that. And a lot of people said that my dad was a hero and a legend and that they wanted his phone number. So it kind of shows you where we are, that I'm not blaming my father for anything. I'm just— I'm asking men not to introduce strippers, the fast life, to their kids, because a lot of men still think it's okay. And I ended up spending $150,000 plus on high-end escorts. So my dad wasn't malicious in his intent, but what he did was normalize that behavior for me.

Yeah, this is a subject I, you know, in 300 episodes we probably haven't talked about, but let's, let's explore it a little bit. I mean, I, like you, am against pornography. I think porn in a lot of ways is kind of like a digital free prostitute, and it creates extremely unhealthy behavior in people. And I know it's very addictive. I mean, why do we live in a society where this kind of thing is normalized and everybody's participating in it?

Man, I don't know. But I can tell you that technology is something that really has expedited porn addiction and gambling. Porn and now the betting apps, they're wiping out a generation of young men.

Hey, Matt, let's take a quick break so that our sponsor DraftKings can have a word. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I think, you know, I also agree. I mean, all these young men specifically, like betting on sports and bypassing all of the age restriction laws. Like, I know little kids who are spending all of their money On these gambling apps. And I also think that that's horrible. Like, it's just such a waste of time and money and mental space. It's like kids— I mean, the fact that, you know, from 0 to 6 is our most important developmental phase, and by 6 years old you're getting kicked out of school and swearing and yelling at people— like, obviously there were some problems there. But then for your first 2, you know, times having sex to be prostitutes and drinking at that age and everything like that You know, your message here is, hey, this is actually not that abnormal of an experience. A lot of people end up touching different aspects of that throughout their childhood, even if it's just pornography or online gambling, and that leads to some pretty addictive, um, and bad behaviors.

And so, yeah, with gambling, they actually have a higher suicide rate than drug and alcohol addiction.

Oh, wow.

And number 2, with pornography, what happens is that what I've seen in a lot of relationships is, you know, another crazy story. You know, being an addict, you're always looking for something more exciting. So one of my friends came to me and said that he was having sex with women in front of their husbands. And I said, oh, that's not cool. He said, no, no, it's— they're okay with it. And so my brain lit up like a Christmas tree because I was tired of strippers and I was tired of prostitutes. So I went under Craigslist. This is a long time ago, under casual encounters. And there were spouses, there were husbands and wives who were putting ads out there for men like me. And I ended up at a motel room and a man filmed his wife giving me oral. And what I say is that the anticipation of the act itself, right, the anticipation of the deed was far more exhilarating than the deed itself. And you can ask anybody. who's been down that road, the minute you leave that motel room, you can't get to a shower fast enough. I could never take the Dove soap unscented, right? I could never get enough soap to wash that off. And it's just as isolating and lonely as drugs and alcohol.

Yeah, that's scary.

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Now, how can we use that same principle in a positive way that anticipation is better than the act itself? You know, one way that I use that, for example, is I always have a vacation booked. And by the time I get home from a vacation, I always have another one on the books, right? Because it's the anticipation, it's the planning, it's the visualization. That's what lights us up, right? So, how can— how have you used some of those same principles to create more of a positive reality for yourself? Is it like service-based now?

Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I'm a big supporter of therapy and there's all different kinds of modalities, but medication treats your mind and service treats your spirit, right? We have a human spirit that needs to be treated. And one of the things, and I touched on it because people ask me, What's my advice? And it just depends on your resources. Unfortunately, if you don't have a lot of resources and you are watching porn for 3 hours a day, go volunteer somewhere for half an hour. And guess what? You're now only watching it for 2 and a half hours a day, right? And then you build upon that and you start living a meaning and a purposeful life. And eventually, the more service that you throw yourself into, obviously, A lot of men have a failure to launch, so they're looking for a career. And the more that they focus on finding and striking a balance in their own life surrounded by service and prayer— service, anybody can do service, right? And this isn't just because people jump on me, oh, you're talking about AA. I'm not talking about AA. The idea of helping someone else predates any type of recovery program. The world would be a better place if everybody did a little bit of volunteer work. And I promise you, as someone who grew up with tons of privilege, you know, at 13 years sober, I bought a 911. I bought a house. I've joined a golf club. I bought watches, clothes, started traveling. All the things that society tells us that we need did not fill my spirit. 8 months after I bought that car, I sold it, and then I got a service position and I found more balance again. So that's something that you can implement right now.

Yeah, man, I was thinking the other day about like what— because we're kind of in this dystopian place in the United States today where you're right, 48 million people are battling an addiction of some type. Um, but also there's this like void of meaning, and you highlighted the loneliness epidemic as well. They're all interconnected and they're all a result of the bad faulty programming that our society installs in all of us. It's like through the traditional education system, through the social media scrolling, through culture and sensationalism in general, we're just ending up in this place that's devoid of meaning. And all of those long-term Harvard studies and everything that shows what actually drives fulfillment and satisfaction at the end of the day, it's all focused around meaning. So if you go meaning, what genuinely creates fulfillment, And you look at the exact opposite of that, it would be pornography, it would be gambling, it would be substance abuse, it would be all of the things that our society seems to install in us that we go out and we just fall into as a default. And those things are all the exact opposite of meaning. I mean, a reality where we all watch pornography and scroll endlessly on social media, and then we hire prostitutes and gamble in order to light up our brains. None of that does anything to serve the next generation at all. And so, I'm happy that you're talking about these things, man.

Yeah. You know, the opposite of isolation is service, right? And think about— and I think anybody can relate to this. You don't have to be an addict or in recovery. Everybody, I guarantee you, everybody listening to this interview at one point in their life took time out of their day to go do something nice for someone else. without expecting anything in return, right? And most people will say that that made them feel good, right? That is a natural high, right? That you, you can, um, you can instill something into your daily routine going to help someone else and doing that on a consistent basis. Even if you don't believe in God, right? If you go do service, something will contact you. I guarantee it.

Yeah, man. I mean, when I think about growing up, I grew up in the Catholic Church and we all, as part of our confirmation process, had to do some community service. And I remember like sitting in the church basement building peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and tucking them in brown bags. And then the church would go hand them out to homeless people and bring them to food shelters and stuff. And like, those are some amazing memories. I felt so great doing more, you know, doing that back in the day.

Yeah.

And it's like, why am I not doing more of that today? You know, I think sometimes, Matt, I justify the service bucket by saying things like, well, I create positive content on social media and that helps people, millions of people a month, or I help authors like you get more exposure for their messages. And that's my form of service. But I think there's still a gap there in my own life that I need to go fill. And you're going to help me do that.

There is a major gap. And I think that, listen, when you grow up in a bubble, right, of affluence, you don't have perspective of what the hell is going on in the world. And as you know, I live in a suburb of Detroit, so everybody knows 8 Mile. That's the dividing line between all white people and all Black people. And when I started to cross 8 Mile and get into service and go help other people, privileged people have lost perspective. 100%. And I saw something on Joe Rogan. There was a, a, an author who wrote up— she said that the problem with young people or people who are suffering from mental health issues is that they're ruminating about their problems. It's not the problem that's the problem, it's the rumination of the problem. And the quickest way out of that is to just get involved in a community.

Yeah, we, we do tend to ruminate on problems, and it It— yeah, you need to get outside of your own little bubble. It also feels like our politicians across the board have also totally lost perspective on what the average person's dealing with.

Oh, the horrors. When I started to volunteer and I started to hear people— listen, everybody has trauma and everybody has problems. I'm not trying to minimize wealthy people's problems, but when I started volunteering at a a shelter for sex-trafficked young women. There is pure evil out there. Women who are branded with irons with their pimps saying, you're my property. Grandfathers that are raping their granddaughters, and then they go to their grandmother and say, grandpa's raping me, and she throws her out of the house. I don't know that kind of desperation. I just, I don't, right? And so, I get a fresh perspective every time I go volunteer at a treatment center that is— most of the men have Medicaid. They don't even have a razor, right? You know what I say now lately? If your car payment is more than someone's rent, shut the fuck up. I don't want to hear it anymore.

Yeah, and hey, look, kudos to you, man, for just shooting straight and telling it like it is. Uh, I'm sure you're causing a lot of disruption, uh, to the status quo for how the Variety space has been operating for a long time. Why do you— like, what's the logic in telling all these stories and being upfront? And I mean, look, you're so transparent even in this podcast, but especially on social media with the things that you've done in the past. It just wakes people up. Like, how are you so comfortable sharing that stuff?

Well, it's not comfortable. Uh, one, I don't have kids. I probably wouldn't share these stories if I had children. My dad is not alive. You know, I want to say real quickly that it's important for people to know that my book is not an indictment of my parents' failures. It's a testimony to what happens when you love someone too much. Right.

Mm-hmm.

And I want to make that distinction. But I'm sharing these stories because I want to give hope to someone else who feels like they can't share their problems with anybody. And by me airing these stories out, that someone else will feel comfortable about, you know, taking care of a felony. There's a lot of people who aren't high bottom. There's people who are facing major felonies, and they have to— they owe people money. They have a lot to clean up. And I'm trying to inspire people by sharing everything that makes me, um, you know, telling a girl I could get her a job at my dad's company if she had sex with me, and then I didn't. And I think that the point is that therapy can only take me so far and that my spirit was so broken that I needed something that therapy alone could not provide me. And what that was was a relationship with God. And so what I say is that I have a therapist, but God is my primary therapist.

It's an interesting point that you are in a unique position where, like, that ultimate enabler is no longer here. So you don't have to worry about their judgment, your dad. And you don't have kids, so you're not worried about— you're not worried about like their self-assurance being limited or hurt because of, of what you're saying online. So you're, you're in this place of like ultimate freedom as far as like the only consequence for what you say on social media is on you, not on anybody else. And I feel like you are right in that a lot of people are not willing to be open and transparent or as vulnerable because of the consequences of their loved ones. And yeah, that's a, that's a unique position that you're in.

Yeah. And so, um, I think that just of me being candid and, and so raw with my, with my testimony is just trying to give people hope that— because people are afraid, they'll take their secrets to their grave, right? And I'm not, I'm not suggesting that people come out online and do what I'm doing. But I'm hoping that maybe they can go to a priest, maybe they can, you know, go to a therapist. You don't always have to come to someone like me, but just get it out, right? Just, you know, with a combination of therapy and a combination of service work. And what if there is a program that you're interested in participating in? I'm just trying to inspire people, to people who may have done a lot worse than me. Right, that need to clean that up.

So just reminding the audience before my next question, God Doesn't Relapse comes out on Tuesday, August 11th. You can pre-order the book or buy the book depending on when you're listening to this in the show notes below. And the book is for all sorts of people. The book is for those enablers who know somebody struggling with substance abuse or an addiction in some capacity And by reading Matt's book, you'll get a better understanding of how you can stop enabling that person and actually help them. Um, let's, let's talk about the prayer piece. Like, what does your routine look like, and how can other people apply prayer as a way to start solving their own problems?

That's such a great question. So you have to understand, with addicts and alcoholics, we're very undisciplined and we don't have a routine. The only routine we know is to get high. Yeah, like, not show up, right? And so I had, as you know, my book is All Consequences. I tell all these stories. It's, you know, they're— I can laugh at them now. They're— some are not actually not so laughable, but, you know, I was deplorable. And, um, what I want to say about prayer is that, so for me, when I got on my knees for the first time, you know, as someone who was raised Jewish, uh, I didn't like, uh, hearing other people's advice with regard to prayer. Right? Because I went to a religious day school, and I'm like, well, you don't tell me how to pray. Well, I know how to pray. Well, the only thing that was able to break through that denial was pain.

Hmm.

Deep-rooted. I was— first of all, drugs and alcohol were killing me physically, but I was already dying mentally and spiritually, and I prayed for death every night. Please don't let me wake up. My life is a living hell. Now, I surrounded myself with a group of men who told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. So you have to be in a unique place to be able to receive a message that might sound confrontational, but it's not. It's not confrontational. They're people who care about you. They care more about your recovery than your feelings. And so you mentioned how I'm able to do this. People pleasers are killing addicts. There are way too many people who are Afraid to go online and do what I do because they're afraid of being disliked. I don't care. Everybody knows that about me, right? You're either gonna like me or not. I'm fine with that. And so, um, you have to tell people things that might not make them comfortable. And so the first time I got on my knees, right, I said to myself, how is something so small and insignificant gonna impact my life? But it was the physical action of actually getting on my knees. And this wasn't a foxhole prayer. This was a cry of desperation because I wanted to kill myself. And I said, God, if you don't show yourself, I'm going to blow my head off. And the room lit up for 25 minutes. I had a white light spiritual experience. The desire to use drugs and alcohol was lifted from me instantaneously. And I realized that my, you know, as a, as a religious person, you think you're chosen, right? Because that's what the Bible says and all that nonsense. And basically, I, I realized that I was spared, um, to serve, not, not to— not because I was some, some special son of God, that he expected a lot out of me to give back. And I guess what I want to say is that most people don't have that white light. Most people, it takes Time. So that you hear people say, don't quit before the miracle. What that means is build a routine. Like, look at your— look at the effort you put in for your marathon or the triathlon, right? I don't think people understand what that takes to, to, to, to be cut like that and to be disciplined. Your discipline is what's required in a sober state of mind, if that can make sense to you.

Oh yeah, it does. Um, people pleasers are killing addicts should be one of your next social media posts if you haven't done that yet.

I haven't.

Yeah, that's a good one. And I mean, I think it's true. It's like, you know, we live in— without, without getting political, we seem to live in a society today where people are scared to tell the truth. They're scared to create controversy. They're scared to hurt the feelings of those they're actually best positioned to serve. And yeah, I'm tired of that. I really am. I mean, I wish, I wish we didn't have to walk on eggshells around the people we're actually best positioned to serve. And I think that by walking on eggshells and by people pleasing and by, by trying not to offend people and using the softest language possible Yeah, we're enabling more of the behavior that's actually hurting the people that we're supposed to help.

100%. And unfortunately, in the multi-billion dollar treatment center industry, there are a lot of good people, but like in industry— in any industry, there are a lot of people who are looking to take advantage of people. And so, for instance, this is very important to me. When I was in private practice, I handled the recovery side. My business— former business partner handled the therapy side. And we had to fire clients because it was life and death and it wasn't ethical to keep taking their money. And what you're seeing is private practices that are afraid to confront their client because the client then will stop paying them and fire them. That's a good thing. Stand for something. My God. I mean, it's— and, you know, I'm not going to mention names, but it's like they'll keep a client no matter what. And I don't think that's ethical.

Yeah, I don't think that's ethical either. I had a mentor way back in the day, Vishen Lakhiani, founder of Mindvalley, tell me that on social media and with this podcast, people should know almost instantly whether they love you or whether they can't stand you, because everything in the middle, all of that ambiguity, that's what hurts people. You know, and that's also what limits your growth and your potential to impact. Like, you have to take a stance, and that stance should create some type of response in the viewer. And look, I mean, with your content, you know, and I love this strategy with your content on social media, when you tell the original story, you hook people in and they can't look away because you're talking vulnerably and openly about these really taboo subjects that don't typically get talked about. But on the back end of that content, you're trying to help people. So it's like you're producing for the version of Matt that wanted just to be entertained. And once you get that person into the video, then you can move them into a place of depth and of meaning and of positivity. And that's buying a copy of God Doesn't Relapse, for example. Um, is that your thinking of the content, or am I kind of misrepresenting?

Oh no, that is. Listen, as we've mentioned, I didn't even want to do social media, but my, you know, my brilliant publicist or publisher said you have to. And I realize why, because nobody knows who I am. People are getting to know who I am. And millions of them, by the way. Yeah. And I think it's important to look— is that what people want? Another video of me drinking a protein shake and lifting weights? I mean, my God, first of all, it's incredibly boring and it's inauthentic. I am not perfect, and I want people to see that I have tons of character flaws even still today, and that, that the person who I was, uh, will drink again if I don't change that person. And so, um, that's why people are saying— I'm getting comments now where people saying this is the most raw, real content out there.

Yeah, I'm actually learning from you and thinking about how I can change my brand around, my presence online to be a little bit more direct like yours. I've had moments of that in the past, but then I kind of fall off even though it performs well, even though I get like the validation that people are like, yeah, I like this more direct approach. Then I kind of fall back into the— generalist category. So I like watching your content because it reminds me of who I think I need to show up as online a little bit more often.

I want to go back to the discipline that you have. Thank you.

Of—

because my uncle did a triathlon a long time ago. He lived in California. I think that for the people who struggle with the concept of God, if they can find a routine similar to yours, one of the things that I wrote in my book was how important one of my clients who doesn't go to meetings, he doesn't pray, but he was 178 pounds at 5'7, smoked a pack a day of cigarettes, shaved his head when I first met him. So he looked like One Who Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. That's where I picked him up from. And he was a master manipulator of women. And so who he is today, what keeps him sober is his routine. He is like 12% body fat. He's like you. He is, he is rigorous about his workout routine. He doesn't smoke. He's married with 2 kids. He doesn't cheat. That's a whole nother topic, right? One of the posts I said is, are happy endings cheating? Um, and a lot of men will say no. And he comes home after work and helps his wife put his kids to bed. So, he's turned into a man of character. And so, I think that, you know, we don't know each other that well, but, you know, with your workout routine and you're a committed husband and father and how I saw your son come out on the stage like that, you know, you don't have to do your recovery like me, right? But you have to have a rigorous routine.

Yeah, I think so too. And one of my favorite lessons around routines is that people think you're doing the same thing every day and therefore, you're stagnating. The root word of routine is root. It's route. It's movement. And every single— I mean, look, I appreciate the compliment. And, you know, I'm happy to say that I've never cheated on a single relationship I've ever had in my entire life. Like, hand to God, I never have and I never will. And I do want to be the father that my son wants me to be. And I want to be the husband that my wife wants me to be. And You know, I look at my son Levi and I think, if he became who I am today, would that make me happy or sad? And for most people, when they think about that, it makes them really sad. Well, I don't want my kid to have the body I have. I've been abusing it for years. I don't want my kid to have the relationship I have. I've been abusing it for years. I don't want my kid to have the mental health that I have. I've been abusing it for years. On and on and on and on and on. And I am—

you know what, Matt?

I'm really proud to say, and I should be proud to say, that I love where I'm at in life, and a lot of it is because of the routines that I have. Look, to do a full-distance Ironman triathlon, which is a 2.4-mile swim followed by a 112-mile bike followed by a marathon after the 100-mile bike ride, it's like you can't just wake up and do that. It requires years of consistent effort in the right direction. And the parallels between the discipline that I have in other areas of my life. And, you know, it translates directly to the business that I'm running. And so, yeah, I want everybody to have better habits, better routines, a better mindset about who they are and how they're showing up. And, you know, it's questions like, if your kid became exactly who you are today, would that make you happy? That get you to reframe the life that you're living.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So God Doesn't Relapse comes out Tuesday, August 11th. The link is in the show notes below. One more time before we wrap up today, why do people need this book and what happens if they don't buy it?

Because parents are loving their kids to death. And so what does that mean? They're— they can't get out of their own way. So this is part memoir but part case study. So in between each chapter are interludes, which are italicized, that I helped— a co-author helped me put together. I put in the successful case studies of my 10,000 hours. And by the way, I think credibility is important. So anybody who is questioning can call some of the families that I've worked with, right? They're happy to speak with you about the work that I did for them. I think that's important to mention. So there's the important case studies of what worked and what didn't. And so instead of me sitting in someone's living room and telling them what to do, I thought maybe if, if a family could sit back and read the book and digest the information differently, that, that can— they could instill boundaries. My mom put a boundary in place and held the line, and it saved my life. So this is life and death. And I think that this book is for families who are related to people suffering, and it's a roadmap for, for all of them to recover together.

Yeah, that's awesome. And, uh, look, again, I'm just— I'm happy that you're doing this work. I'm happy that you're talking about it. I'm happy that you're trying to tell the truth rather than people-please. And, uh, I'm a fan, so continue doing that good work. Um, before I let you go, I'll just do a couple of rapid-fire questions, no right or wrong answers, and then we'll let you off.

Okay.

What is your favorite book of all time? Do you have one?

Yeah, To Kill a Mockingbird.

Okay, awesome.

Um, and the movie.

Yeah, movies are great too. Movie— what's your favorite TV show of all time?

Sopranos.

Awesome. Who is your dream reader of this book? Like, one person on planet Earth, if this book could get in their hands it would make you so happy that they've read the book?

You know, that's a great question. Um, I'm gonna say any family member that's about to lose a loved one.

All right, that's a good answer.

That's a good answer.

Um, all right, Matt, let's wrap it up for today. Great conversation. Everybody who's still with us, thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. And click the link in the show notes below. Grab yourself a copy of God Doesn't Relapse.

Thank you.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, Go read something.