98. Thatcher Wine: Author of The Twelve Monotasks

Thatcher, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you doing today?

Very well, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

I'm excited for today's conversation. We've spent the last day and a half working together to film some content for your business and for your book, but for those in the Book Thinkers family that are not familiar with you or your book or your business, I'd love to have you introduce yourself to everybody. Sure.

Yeah, so I'm Thatcher Whyne, the author of 2 books. Most recent one is The 12 Monotasks: Do One Thing at a Time to Do Everything Better. My previous book was For the Love of Books: Designing and Curating a Home Library, and that one's really all about the business I started and the services we provide at Juniper Books, and we design and curate libraries all around the world.

Well, before we dive into some content from The 12 Monotasks, one of the themes for the Book Thinkers Podcast is to start learning a little bit more about the author so that this audience can learn more about you. So Let's go back to the early days. I remember in your book you talked a little bit about your parents' restaurant in New York, and so tell us a little bit about what that was like.

Yeah, so I grew up above my parents' restaurant, which was called the Quilted Giraffe, and it was one of the best restaurants in New York City in the '80s. And it's a long way from where we are now in Boulder, Colorado, um, and the business I have now. But it was a fun, fun childhood, you know, growing up in New York City, fast-paced, celebrities coming to dinner. My parents would call upstairs and be like, hey, Mick Jagger's here, do you want to come meet him? So I got to have some really fun experiences, ate very well, and was exposed to like a super entrepreneurial creative environment as well, and that's inspired my career.

So you do think that having entrepreneurial parents is one of the reasons that you ended up becoming an entrepreneur?

I do. I had very entrepreneurial parents and grandparents. They had various businesses, and I think that, you know, just since it was Kind of what I saw people doing all the time, and I, you know, got taken to work at the factory and at the restaurant and the dentist's office and all that. I got to see it from lots of different angles. I knew I didn't want to have a restaurant and live that life, but I, you know, I didn't know that I would become a book entrepreneur.

A lot of members of our audience are aspiring entrepreneurs, or they're first starting off in their entrepreneurial journey right now as they're listening to today's show. So what are some of the characteristics that you think make up a successful entrepreneur, having had entrepreneurial grandparents, parents, and being an entrepreneur yourself?

Yeah, that's a really great question. I think, you know, number one is just being an optimist, you know, like, and a problem solver, kind of welcoming the opportunity to figure things out. And whether that's making the world a better place or fixing, you know, the toilet, whatever it is, like looking at every problem. As just something that's like part of the journey and not a huge setback. So I think being an optimist and problem solver is really important. I think, you know, being willing to work hard and wanting to work hard is super important. That's a common characteristic of entrepreneurs. You know, I think just always having like a growth mindset and continuous learning approach to the world is also super important. This business that I have now is not a business that I set out to create. It was a hobby that I was doing kind of in between careers, but I just loved what I was learning from it. I felt like there was infinite potential to find books, sell books, find customers, listen to them, create new designs. And I feel like, you know, it's 21 years and we're just getting started on potential.

Well, before we jump into Juniper Books, I'd love to ask as sort of a positioning question, where did your love of books come from and what were some of your first reading experiences and memories that you have?

Yeah, that's a great question. I, you know, I wasn't like the most bookwormish kid. I loved to read, and I remember the books I read as a kid. I also remember like where I placed them all on my shelves. It's probably very relevant to what I do today. But, you know, I remember the formative books in my life like The Adventures of Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain, The NeverEnding Story, Catcher in the Rye, I remember where I was when I was reading those, where I got them from. Neverending Story, I remember that I couldn't keep it. It was a book I checked out from the library, and that was like heartbreaking. I couldn't put it on my shelf because it was such an important book. I still have my copy of The Catcher in the Rye that like I read on the Madison Avenue bus on the way to school and missed my bus stop. So, you know, it's just like a beat-up paperback copy, but the love of reading came from just being encouraged to read, whether it was for school or in the summers, and just carrying that forward.

And then, so 21 years ago, you started the business that you still have today, which is Juniper Books. It was not your first business, but we're here to talk books today, so let's start to focus a little bit on that. What is Juniper Books, and what do you guys focus on?

So Juniper Books today, we really do 2 things. One is that we offer over 300 different books sets, everything from Harry Potter to Lord of the Rings, Jane Austen, Ernest Hemingway, cookbooks, kid books. And we do something different from bookstores, like we sell them as sets and collections. And most, if not all of them, depending on where you're looking, have our custom book jackets that I invented. That really transforms your books into artwork on your shelves when you're not reading them. So both of those things are super unique. And then the other thing we do is we curate custom libraries and design custom book jackets for customers who, you know, may want a certain look for their library, whether it's a color or an image that goes across the spines, or they might just want books that are hard to find, whether it's rare books or a large collection about a particular subject. We put it all together, make it kind of turnkey, ship it all out and install it at one time, so it makes it a little bit easier to have a dream library.

Well, it was a dream for us walking through your warehouse the other day— yesterday, today— and getting to experience all the different book sets that you have on display and work with you to help promote some of them, talk about them, display some of them. And for anybody that's just listening today and they're not watching the show or they're not consuming this on a piece of social media content, head over to the Book Thinkers page and check out some of the book sets that I now have on my shelves because because they are pretty spectacular. Now, Thatcher, my next question is also about entrepreneurship. I feel like it's a very strong and consistent subject within the Book Thinkers family, and we get a lot of questions about it. And what's interesting about your business is that you didn't take thousands of dollars to start the business. You took a smaller amount of money. So could you tell us a little bit about that story and what it was like starting the business?

Yeah, definitely. Sorry, my dog is being a little distracting for those of you watching on video. This is Maple. So prior to starting Juniper Books, I had a venture capital started business, or venture capital funded business, and, you know, I decided after that, that business didn't work out, that I would do things a little differently with what was at that point a hobby. And I basically just went out to the local thrift store and spent $25. And I bought 25 books and I went home and I put them on eBay and some of them sold, some of them didn't, and I took the profits from the books that did sell and I reinvested them. I went out and bought more books and I did that until I was buying out bookstores with 25,000 books. And I did that many times in those early years and put the inventory online and just used that model of reinvesting in the business. And it was very much like a one product, which happened to be a book at a time model of selling to one customer at a time. And, you know, really focusing on what I was learning about a business that I knew nothing really about at that point. I hadn't been a rare book dealer, and it was super fun. And I just applied some of the mindset that we talked about earlier to growing it over time.

And you've done some of these big custom projects. How many books Like, what's one of the bigger projects that comes to mind when you think about some of the bigger, you know, custom bookshelf inventory that you've done?

I mean, the largest project we did was 10,000 books, and we've done several kind of in the 3,000 book range. And, you know, that's like if you have a house and you have lots of rooms with books, we'll curate different collections for different parts of the house. So maybe one collection for the living room, Another one for offices, bedrooms, kitchen, you name it. You can put books anywhere in your house, obviously, and we love kind of that challenge of curating different subjects and also having a different look and style for different areas.

I'm sure some members of the audience today are wondering, how much does something like that cost?

Um, so the custom projects really can range anywhere from $750 for like a book set. So if you just want like a 5-book set with a special design, it starts there. But the projects that we're talking about, thousands of books, range into the tens of thousands of dollars and well into 6 figures depending on what you're looking for and how specific it is and what the style is.

Yeah, well, that's pretty spectacular. Now we'll transition over to the subject of today's podcast, which is The 12 Monotasks, and the subtitle of the book reads, To Do Everything Better. So tell us a little bit about this book. I mean, what are some of the main takeaways that a reader can expect? Who is the target reader? Tell us some of those things.

So I wrote the book for me to start with, right? So I live a very busy life. I also went, you know, running the business, being a parent. I have 2 teenagers now, and, you know, typical maybe high achiever, just always trying to do a lot in a short period of time. And I kind of hit the wall about 5 years ago. I had cancer, went through lymphoma and chemotherapy. I had another medical issue before that. I had a hole in my head that was causing headaches for years. And pretty soon after going through cancer and treatment, I got a divorce. So I had all these like super distracting things going on that were life-threatening to a certain extent. And I had to figure out how to navigate my way through them. And And then, to be honest, rebuild my business after a few years of being distracted.

Mm-hmm.

And because it wasn't going that well at that time period, you know, just a lot of things had to be— had the pieces put back together to get back on track. So I looked around at the books that were out there, tried a whole bunch of different methods to concentrate and focus and work on productivity and get my creativity and my success back, and nothing was really working. So I decided to see, kind of figure out what worked for me before all those distractions and what could I do after, and came up with this idea of monotasking. Instead of just trying to do it all at once, could I take a step back and say, you know, can I choose one of these things, do it with my full attention, get it done, take a break, move on to the next thing until, you know, I started to cross some things off my to-do list and it worked.

The first monotask that you highlight in the book is actually reading. And so I'm sure the audience will be excited to hear a little bit about that. But I found, I found some interesting things in that section of the book, like some non-obvious benefits of reading, such as the ability to improve your attention span. And I think now with social media at a place where it is, TikTok videos and Instagram Reels being things that you judge within half a second, then you move on because you're you can't hold your attention there for more than 30 seconds or a minute at a time. It's cool to, to understand that even if you're reading one of these personal development or productivity style books and you're not implementing everything that you read, you shouldn't feel guilty about that because you're improving other skills such as your ability to monotask and to focus for an extended period of time. So what are some of the other reasons that you decided to include reading as the first monotask in the book?

Yeah, so as you described, I mean, our attention these days is fragmented. Almost everything in the world is set up to just fragment it into smaller and smaller increments and then sell it off to an advertiser or content generator, somebody who wants your attention. And, you know, notifications on our phones and apps and everything. And it's not that we can't consume those things, right? Or use our phones. So we have to counterbalance it with things that then expand our attention span, put it back together. Because you might wonder, like, why can't you pay attention when you get to your desk? You know, and it's just because we're doing all these distracting things all the time. The things that will help you pay attention when you sit at your desk or you're in a conversation or you have to listen to an important, you know, family conversation are things like reading. Sitting in a chair with a printed book for about 20 minutes or more helps kind of reconsolidate your attention. And in addition to that, like, actually sitting there and reading— and whatever you're reading will do this— like, it helps calm your nervous system. Studies have been done that readers live longer too, are healthier, are less stressed. The other thing it does is like it wires, rewires our brain for creativity and imagination. And a lot of these skills, instead of everything being served up in 2-dimensional screens, books, reading on paper, and then having to like create a mental image of what's in the book and what you're reading about the characters and plot distances and all that, like your neural pathways are being created, which helps in everything that we do. So the whole book is not just about, you know, the activities on their own, but how you can kind of use them to cross-train to make your whole life better.

What percentage of your own personal reading is fiction and what percentage is nonfiction?

I'd say I'm like an 80% nonfiction reader and 20% fiction.

It's interesting because a lot of the book sets at Juniper Books are fiction. And is that because fiction readers care more about the aesthetic and what it looks like on their shelves, or they have longer series? I mean, what is, what is the reason, do you think?

That's a really good question. I think there's a connection between readers and authors in like popular series, fantasy series, mystery series, things like that, that's different than readers have with like somebody who writes biographies or business books or history books. And there's a loyalty to the author, to the franchise, to the fandom that's different. And I think it's different in such a way for our design team to like really visualize what that connection looks like. Turn the books inside out in a way that's different from nonfiction. I mean, we have some sets with like Winston Churchill, the portrait, you know, the photograph of Winston Churchill across the spines. That's pretty clear and obvious and makes a great gift, you know, for your British friends. But then our science fiction and high fantasy sets and romance sets and things like that. Like, there's just like this really fun, vibrant visual image that we put across the spines where people are just like, they get it, they love it, and they just feel even closer to the authors and the book set.

What's cool about your business too is that sometimes you can just purchase the actual book sleeves. You don't need to purchase the entire set of books, right? And you can insert them over the books that you already have.

Yeah, so gosh, it's probably been 5 or 6 years now that we introduced jackets only, we call it. And the first one was Harry Potter. So we started selling Harry Potter book sets. We have like 7 different designs now. But people were emailing saying, I think I have the books that those will fit, can I just buy the jackets? And we figured out a way for them to confirm, you know, I have this book, the ISBN matches, great, I'm gonna order the jackets. And that Keeps the cost down and allows a lot more people to just add a fresh look to the books on their shelves.

Speaking of Harry Potter, which house do you think you'd belong in?

So I've been sorted into Ravenclaw, and I think it's a good fit for me. And, you know, it's just given my creativity and entrepreneurialism, I think it fits with a lot of Ravenclaws. And I've, you know, a lot of people in the design world I think are Ravenclaws as well.

Another subject that you brought up inside of this book is that I think it was about a third of adults haven't read a book in the last year. Was, was that the number?

Um, I can't remember the number that is in the book, but it— I think it's even higher than that.

Yeah, I would imagine it would be.

Yeah, reading— I mean, this is a thing about the entrepreneurial journey and about monotasking that, you know, overlaps. It's like at every point of my career and my writing, people have been like, why are you bothering? You know, people aren't interested in printed books anymore. That's what they said 20 years ago. The future is going to be ebooks. And then more recently they're like, why are you bothering to write a book about paying attention when people don't really want to pay attention? Like, they want to just tune out and look at videos online. Why are you resisting that? And I think it's just really important. I think reading is important. I think reading in print is important. It's great to consume books no matter what format they're in.

Mm-hmm.

But it's even better on paper. And I think it's really good for us to pay attention. And if we don't strengthen what I call our monotasking muscles by doing things like reading or having a conversation like we're having, where we're both listening and paying attention, it's going to atrophy. And we're not going to be able to pay attention to things that matter, do the work that matters, and have fun and be like fully immersed in going to a live concert or going skiing or going for a run and not multitasking all the time, taking away from our enjoyment of things that we used to love.

Well, jumping over to another monotask that you just mentioned, which is listening, we talked earlier today about conscious listening and being aware of a conversation, not thinking of your response while somebody else is talking, but taking the time to think, which is another one. And listen actively, pay attention. And that's something that I've been trying to work on while I'm having conversations like this, because oftentimes as a podcast host, you become a little insecure for a moment, like, do I have another question? What's the next question? I've got to think of the next question. But I know the conversations that work best and that people relate to the most happen in real time, and they're not scripted, they just flow. And I think that's one of the benefits of monotasking too, is it creates a more genuine, present version of yourself. And I like that version of myself more than the multitasked, strung-out, distanced version of myself.

Yeah, no, it's a great point. And I think, you know, your interviewing and podcasts that I've been on where the interviewer, the host, is like very comfortable, it's basically like you're in the flow. You're— yes, you have a job to do, you know, that you're gonna listen to the response, and then, you know, how are you going to respond, or what's the next question you're going to ask. But if you can get into the flow by essentially monotasking it enough times that you can then become comfortable with it, then you can— it just becomes second nature that you become a better listener. You don't have to think about being a good listener or think about being a good interviewer. And, you know, I think one of my recommendations for people on a daily basis is You know, listen as if you're recording a podcast, just in a conversation with friends, or listen as if your life depends on it. Like, take a different approach than you take to a typical day, typical meetings, lunch with a friend, phone call with your parents or whatever, you know, and just act like every word is important and you're really hyper-listening in addition to conscious listening.

Hmm.

What else do you do in your day-to-day life to cultivate more awareness and presence? I mean, do you meditate? Do you— what else are you doing on a daily basis?

So yeah, I've been a long-time meditator, I think for about 25 years now. I practice yoga and, you know, like to move my body through, you know, various stretching and other exercise routines. bike, I hike, not every single day. But I think I've always had this interest in, you know, more mindful practices like that. But what I recognized with the book is that there's like a certain limit where some of the population might tune out and be like, I'm not going there, I'm not gonna practice that because it's too Eastern, or, you know, woo-woo, or spiritual, it might conflict with my beliefs, or, you know, everybody else is better at it than me. Like, people make up a lot of reasons or come to a lot of conclusions why they're not going to meditate or practice mindfulness. So I wanted to come up with like a super secular approach to paying attention. And you can do it anywhere. You don't have to wait till class. You don't have to wait for the weekend. You don't have to go on a retreat or find a guru. You can monotask anything in life. And so the book's really about that very like secular accessible practice.

Thatcher, one of the last questions that I'd like to ask before I transition the mic over to Luke has to do with storytelling. One of the things that I've heard you say is that a book does tell a story on the inside, obviously, but that they also tell a story on the outside as well. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, there's so many different layers of stories within books and, and the books that we have in our homes and our lives, the stories they tell. So it starts, sure, with the author, you know, the story that they write that's on the pages of the books, but there's a whole story behind that author, how they came to write it, How the book was edited, published, sold, marketed. And then, you know, how did it end up in your hands? How did it end up in your home? Were you traveling and picked it up in the airport or in a foreign city? Were you given it by your grandmother? Did your, you know, former girlfriend write a note in it? You know, did you carry it with you as you moved across the country from apartment to apartment, house to house? And then there's also just where do you display it? You know, do you put it— is it in a box in the garage? Is it on your coffee table? It's on your nightstand? Is it tucked in with other books on the shelf? These, you know, there's like thousands of different combinations of books that we could put together. Like, you may have the same books as somebody else, but the way they arrange them and how they came into their lives and all the things that I just mentioned may be completely different. It's like DNA. So All those things tell stories, and whether we pay attention to it or not— I mean, you may after this podcast look at your bookshelves completely differently and be like, oh, there's a reason why I have these and how I have them in this order. But I think, you know, if you pay attention to the stories, you realize that you're telling a story to the world, your own story that's unique from the books that you've collected and you think are important and you have out for the world to see.

Yeah, I was reflecting on that after you mentioned it yesterday and after I read this book. And I was thinking of another book that I had read called Die with Zero, and the author talks about investing in experiences because he says they create memory dividends that pay out and compound just like a normal investment would. So I think books do the same thing. I can think of so many books where I invested in reading the book and that experience has compounded and created so many other memories as a result of it, and I get paid out in the form of joy and in the form of whatever type of ROI I was looking for from the book, whether it be health, wealth, happiness, friendship, relationship-wise. These books pay out and they can improve you in so many different ways, and if you invest in reading and you can increase your attention span And then you can apply that to something else. It compounds in a different way. And so these books pay out and they compound over your lifetime, and I think that's its own story too. And it's so, it's so cool how that works, especially when you have people around you that are reading as well.

Yeah, so it's a really good way of looking at the world. And I think one, one thing I hear all the time from people is, I don't have time to read. You know, who has time to read? Who I don't have time to write books or read them. You know, I'd rather just watch the movie. It's a lot easier. And, you know, my answer to that is a lot, you know, what you just said. Like, it's about what you get back. It's not just the 20 minutes or the hour. It's that it pays dividends. Like, yes, you may learn something. Yes, you may be entertained, but your attention span is being strengthened. You're more connected to the world in a way through that book. And you never know when, like, you may read the book and there's probably like, my book, The 12 Monotasks, may have like 1,000 tips in it, you know, scattered throughout. If only one of them changes your life, that's all that matters. If you only remember one tip about sleeping or listening or traveling, you know, amazing. That's like job well done and, you know, you can apply that to your life and there's a huge return on it.

Well, Thatcher, it was great speaking with you today. I'm gonna tap in Luke, so he's gonna take over the second half of today's show.

Cool, thanks Nick.

Alright, well we're here with Thatcher Wynne. We are talking about his book, The 12 Monotasks, and about his business Juniper Books. We're really excited to be here today. Thanks for being on our podcast.

It's great to be here, Luke.

Thanks. So the first question I have, and it's around the 12 Monotasks. I think a lot of times I'm super overwhelmed by about everything, and I'm really curious how you came up with just 12 that encompass When I read through it, I was super impressed. It encompassed like everything you need. So what was the process of that? Was it hard? Why not 13 or 6?

I think 12 is a really good number, and it made for a good like illustration on the COVID too, the camera aperture motif. I thought of it like a clock too, you know, just the 12 hours. And yeah, I mean, honestly, it was— the 12-mile test just kind of came to me. one day. It was like divine inspiration. But, you know, I knew I was starting with reading because I've had this book business for 21 years. I think a lot about reading. Why have I built a book business? Why do I encourage people to read? Why do I think people should have books in their home? Why do I want to make them more beautiful and, you know, worthy of keeping forever? And I was thinking, you know, reading Helps concentrate our attention in one place. It helps us, and it gives us back like a strengthened attention. And I thought, you know, what else is like that in life? So I started just observing myself throughout the day, throughout the week. What do I do? Where was my attention wandering? How could I, you know, work on bringing it back? And, you know, everything in the book, the 12 monotasks, include things like listening, playing, sleeping, eating, creating, thinking. I wanted them to be things that everybody could relate to. You know, it's— you won't find yoga in there, right? Because not everybody can relate to yoga. Like, nobody has that on— or not everybody has that on their daily or weekly or annual calendar. But everybody has something like getting there, which started as a chapter about texting and driving, why you shouldn't do that, like the ultimate form of dangerous multitasking. So I want to like take it to a level that people People can relate, practice it, and see the benefits in their own lives.

Yeah, I love that. You know, I was thinking, today we talked a little bit about walking, and I love walking, but the world we live in is very distracting, and we have our phones, and we can pretty much work from anywhere at any time. And a lot of us, especially me, feels guilty if I'm not working at all hours of the day, not being productive. And oftentimes, like walking, something like walking can feel unproductive. I love how in the book you talked about walking being this very special thing and this very, this thing that you should take, take time to do and take a step back, leave the phone at home. So I would love to know, I guess around that, walking is one of my favorite, favorite monotasks. What's, what's one of your favorite monotasks?

Well, I love to walk too, but I'll choose a different one. But I will say, you know, you're not alone. Like, I think everyone can relate to that feeling that like there's too much to do, they want to get it all done, and a lot of people choose activities to do where they can multitask. That's been part of the problem with the pandemic and working from home is it's set up this like super multitasky environment, you know, where you can toggle between windows and do— pretend at least to try to do different things. And walking is one of those too, where like, yeah, you can make a phone call while you're walking. It's pretty easy for everybody to do that, and it's a choice not to do it.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, it's a hard choice to make. And other things in my life that are hard choices, you know, are things like thinking. That's the last chapter in the book, and that's, that's a really hard thing to monotask. Because if you multitask it, it's your own, like, dirty little secret. You're doing it in your own head, and you don't have to tell anybody that you were thinking about, you know, something else while I'm sitting here having this conversation, thinking about what I'm gonna have for dinner. Um, it's a benign form of multitasking, but it, like, takes away from this, you know, whatever you're really trying to do, your primary task. You can have things be your background task. Like, I could the laundry while listening to a podcast. But, you know, generally everything is better in life if you do it one thing at a time. And one place people really see that, where I see it, and I've seen it over the past few years especially, is playing.

Mm-hmm.

And that is like where I kind of go back to when I was a kid, before all this pressure of being adult, you know, came about, where I just like could go skiing, you know, and just feel the wind on my face and the speed rushing down the mountain. Things I love to do. And like, if you can tap into that, that's monotasking. You know, if you can go to a concert and just listen and just feel the music and dance or whatever you want to do and not get your phone out and be obsessed with taking pictures and videos, which nobody watches later anyway.

Just be there.

You know, just be in one place at one time with your full attention and enjoy it.

Yeah, you know, you mentioned play, and with my kids— I have 3 kids of my own— and something that I find myself often doing, like, they love playing, and sometimes I'm there playing with them and I find myself like wandering out in my brain, you know, I'm like spacing out. I'm thinking about everything I have to do tomorrow, everything I've done today, the stuff I didn't get done, and it's really, really hard to remain present in those moments. And I just, I wonder, do you have any tips tips for people, like, trying to, to give themselves some grace or permission just to be able to be there fully playing or fully reading or fully walking?

Yeah, yeah. And so parenting is, is a tricky one, you know, where, um, you want to be there with your kids, but like they won't necessarily notice on the surface if you're thinking about something else or if you're doing something, but they, they know it. Like, They feel it when you're fully there or not. So my tips, you know, one of them is just to first give yourself permission to do one thing at a time, to just play with your kids or do whatever you're doing. You know, yes, you can be doing more. Yes, technology, your intelligence, you know, modern life in general makes it possible to do more, but it's a choice. You can choose not to. You can choose to do one thing at a time. You don't have to choose it all the time. Just choose it enough that, like, you're in control. Social media companies, big tech, they shouldn't be the ones making the choice for you. So that's one big tip, is just recognize, you know, that you really do control your attention and you can make that choice and you can give yourself permission. And the other thing is practice it. You know, you're never— if you can't, you're not gonna be able to call upon it in an instant if you haven't practiced it, right? You can't just show up at the New York City Marathon and run it. You should at least train for a little bit. And so it's the same thing, like, how do we expect to just show up somewhere important or be able to go to the park even and play with our kids if we don't practice it a few minutes at a time and kind of counteract the, like, few seconds that we spend looking at this video and that, you know, picture and, you know, quickly responding to this and just the overwhelming nature of life? nature of regular life if we don't do things that are longer and deeper and more present.

Yeah, you know, I heard a term recently and it was practice makes better, and I really like that because the old saying is practice makes perfect, but the reality is that we are— we're never perfect. And that's helped me a lot, just giving myself grace and not giving myself shame around not being perfect. So the other question I have is around Juniper Books and your success with it. Do you, do you contribute a lot of the success to monotasking, or have you been guilty of doing a lot of multitasking, maybe more so at the beginning, or maybe more so now? I don't know.

Yeah, so I mean, there was a time a few years ago where I was that guy who took my laptop to bed just to send, you know, a couple more emails until I fell asleep. Usually with my laptop on my chest, you know, and it was— I thought that sleep was something that happened when you were just too exhausted to keep your eyes open, right? So I've been there, trying to do too much and it not being healthy, not being productive, having it be stressful and getting burnt out. So it's not like I'm a lifelong monotasking saint, right? I still practice this every day. I still am tempted, just like everyone I still pick up my phone and an hour later can't figure out why I'm still holding it because it's just— I'm not doing anything. Like, it's just a waste of time and I have a lot of other things to do. So I can completely relate to that. At the same time, when I look back when I've been the most creative, the most successful, when the company has been the most profitable, you know, when we've come up with our best ideas and attracted kept our best clients. It's all because we did one thing at a time, whether it was coming up with a book design, curating a cool library or collection for clients, working through a problem, you know, something went wrong with an order or a supplier, as a lot of that happened the last few years. You know, it's—

you—

nothing happens in life except in the present moment and doing one thing at a time. It can look like you're doing 5 things at a time, and it takes place, you know, in a few different present moments, but you can only really do one thing at a time. So I think we should embrace that and not resist it, and that's when, you know, we'll do our best work and we'll be the happiest.

Yeah, you know, that's so, so true. I think the world we live in, I mean, we get so caught up in wanting to do everything all at once all the time because constantly, and the reality is we can't. And I've noticed even with myself, it's just your work suffers because of that. And so often when we put ourselves in that position or in the guilt of, oh, I can, so I should, so I gotta do it, it's, it's, it's not good. I've been saying a lot lately, should does no good. So I kind of do that mantra to myself when I'm, when I'm in the midst of a bunch of different things and trying to multitask. Bringing it back to, I don't know, success. I'd like to ask this question because I think a lot of people that I found that from the outside look very successful, and to all of us, you know, all of us normal people that don't maybe don't feel as successful yet, we look at people like you and we're like, man, how did you do it? I guess my question around that is, do you feel like you've set out, you achieved all that you've set out to achieve? And do you feel like you're a success? Would you describe yourself as a success, or would you say, you know what, I still have a lot to do?

I'd say both. I mean, I, I've had a lot of success. Um, Juniper Books is very successful and, you know, has an impact on the world, and that's, that's really more of how I measure success. So when I think about whether I'm done and whether I have a lot more to do, the answer is definitely yes. Like, I have more books that I want to write. I have more just creative projects that I want to bring to life. I'm the kind of person who, like, yeah, I come up with a lot of ideas every day, and my initial impulse is like, I want to turn that into a business. You know, I want to change the business model I currently have to this, or develop this new product line, or, you know, and it's— I have to say no to a lot of things. And Intentionally, and I don't have any regrets about it really. I mean, maybe a few since I answered that question, or I said really. But, you know, I wish I had more time. I wish I had more attention and energy to do everything. But at the same time, like, I'm very proud of what I've accomplished, and I think everybody should be more accepting really of what they've accomplished and consider the idea that like Maybe, you know, you've done enough. You're doing enough. You shouldn't push yourself to the brink. Like, I've pushed myself over the edge and it wasn't healthy. I've recovered from cancer. I've recovered from things that, you know, almost killed me, almost killed the business. And I'm just super grateful to be here and have the opportunity to do a little bit more. I don't have to do all of it. I hope I, you know, can publish, write, all the books I want to and introduce all the book sets and create all the cool libraries that are in the future. But I'm also happy, you know, having done all that I have.

I love that answer. Now, you've mentioned cancer and a few other setbacks that you've had. I'm curious, during those times, how did you keep going? Did you feel like at times you weren't going to make it? I mean, how did you—

what was your mindset around getting through So, so basically I'm celebrating my 5th year anniversary post-treatment right now.

Congratulations. Thank you.

And that's considered to be cured, the type of cancer I had.

That's amazing.

Which was primary mediastinal non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. And so looking back 5 years ago, look, I think to be honest, I, I'm the kind of person who who wants to make everything look easy and not really let people know that I'm struggling or that something's hard. So back then I did the same thing. Everybody was like, oh, it's amazing, you're so inspiring, you know, going through chemo and going to the office and taking your kids to school and all that. And, you know, the people who knew maybe that that wasn't sustainable were like, slow down. Give yourself time to rest. Give your body time to recover. And, you know, I didn't really listen. I partially listened. In hindsight, I really wish that I did listen because it took me way longer to recover from chemo than I thought, you know, than it probably would have if I had actually gotten the rest that I needed. But, you know, as far as advice that I can share with other people, whether it's, you know, whatever you're going through, it's challenging to you. And, you know, be gentle on yourself. Listen, you know, cultivate friendships with people who are intuitive and like know what you need better than you do, and listen to them better than I did at that time. And then, you know, make— I'm not like a bucket list kind of person, but set some goals. You know, I decided to during cancer treatment that I wasn't just gonna sell other people's books. I was gonna write my own because I had stories I wanted to tell. And I didn't think I'd be a self-improvement author. That was not on my list at the time. That just sort of evolved, you know, in the years that ensued because I came up with a method that I thought would be helpful to other people. And, you know, just having those goals, like, keeps me motivated and creating. And, you know, having an impact on the world, which is again how I measure it.

Yeah, I love that. And I know so many people get in situations— I myself have been there too— where you feel like you just want to give up. Like, I've been there countless times at this point, but it's always inspiring to see somebody like you that does keep going, that has this focus, that has a primary goal. And I've seen that kind of that common thread amongst people, which is you've got to have an aim, you've got to have clarity on where you're going so you can keep going. And I just, I really appreciate you sharing that. So Thatcher, you have all these beautiful books. If you're watching this today, you can see some of the beautiful books from Juniper Books. I'm so curious, when you started, did you— are you artistic? Did you design these? Did you draw these out? Did you get in Adobe and make them up? Like, how did that process start? I mean, you seem like a really creative guy, so— I'd love to know the story about that.

Yeah, so it's funny. I'm, you know, my professional career has been more like business development and, um, you know, being, yes, the creative, but in terms of being the creative director, not actually doing the work in Adobe. But when I look back at college, I, I showed up at Dartmouth where I went to school thinking I was going to be an economics major, Japanese minor. I ended up being a history major, an art history minor. And I dabbled in a lot of studio art starting junior year. And I think if I had found that earlier, like I took painting and drawing and sculpture, design, and the design class in particular was like a very formative experience for me where I was like, oh, I actually have design skills. Didn't know that. And when I look back, like all the things I did end up studying, history, Art history, studio art, are all like integrated every day into what I do, you know. Finding the best books, curating them into sets, making them look beautiful, telling the story of why they're important to the history of literature and art, you know. Working with my graphic design team, they're the ones who create, you know, the concepts that you see on the book jackets and make them work, you know, figure out which element falls on which book and And all that. So yeah, so I mean, it's definitely a team effort at Juniper Books, and I love the creative elements of it and coming up with new product ideas and approving the designs, or, you know, pushing our team to come at it from a different angle, or coming up with just like mind-blowing, eye-catching designs for hotel lobbies and other custom projects we do. So definitely very, very involved. On the creative side, just not so much, you know, sitting at the computer and dragging and creating and illustrating things.

I love that.

If you're listening to this today, you should definitely go look up Juniper Books because it is so cool. It's so funny, you know, my wife, she has— when I told her we were coming out here to do some work with you, she's like, Juniper Books? They're on all my lists! I love them! Like, apparently you're all over blogs and everything. So she knew all about you. She was like pointing them out to me. I was like, wow, these are super, super impressive. So definitely, if you have the time, go check that out. As we're closing up here, I would just like to— maybe you can share for people to learn more about you. Where can they go? What should they do?

Yeah, so you mentioned Juniper Books, and we have a beautiful website and over 300 different book sets you can order and gift and, you know, add to your library. To find me personally, my website's thatcherwine.com. And then on social, primarily on Instagram, Thatcher Wine, and also Journey for Books. So head on over and check us out, and love to hear from people who've read the book and just hear about how it's made a difference in their lives, or tips that you've discovered on your own or recommend for other people. And, um, love how, you know, hearing how it's worked for people.

Yeah, for sure. It is a great book. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and I think Thanks so much for your time today.

Thanks, Luke. Yeah, thanks everyone at Book Thinkers and your audience, and, you know, for your love of books and, um, you know, having this like never-ending interest and hunger for learning more through books. I appreciate it.