Are You An Effective Leader? | John David Mann and Dan Rockwell

This book is for people who are— you just really want to do well, and all of a sudden they're realizing there's something perhaps internally that's holding them back. For me, the application of the story and the solution to self-defeating behaviors begins with—

That's kind of the spirit of the book. It's like if we can go back and talk to ourselves as younger individuals in our 20s, even just, you know, last year, talk to ourselves, What would we counsel? What would we say?

This story has been in my head and in my heart for about 10 years, really, and I actually tried to write it 2 or 3 times.

In that first phone call, I was like, I am in, we're doing this book.

The book is written for losers because it's really kind of subtly, or not so subtly, my story, you know.

Nobody knows you as well as you know yourself, except for the rest of the world.

Mr. John David Mann, Mr. Dan Rockwell, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are the two of you doing today?

Yeah, excellent.

Thanks for the welcome. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah. Now, this is actually our first time interviewing two authors at the same time, two co-authors on the same podcast. So what I'd like to do is have you both introduce yourselves to the audience independently. Dan, why don't we kick off with I'm Dan Rockwell.

I write the Leadership Freak blog. I live in central Pennsylvania. I'm a country boy. And John David Mann is my co-author. I'm not supposed to introduce him, but he's awesome.

Dan, how many books have you worked on?

Yeah, thank you. Actually, I'm gonna take that back. Now, one with John, obviously. But I would say because I've started so many books, I don't know how many books I've worked on. Just nobody knows about them.

Well, we'll have to follow up and unpack that in a couple of minutes. And, uh, John, uh, this is your second time on the Book Thinkers Podcast, I believe. So why don't you tell yourself, uh, a little bit about— why don't you tell the audience a little bit about you and who you are?

Sure.

Well, I started out as a baby many years ago. Uh, no, I'll make this shorter. Uh, I'm John David Mann. I'm Dan's co-author for this book. And this is the first time that he and I have written together, which has really been just a thrill for, for me. I've known Of Dan and known Dan a little bit for many years. He's been a huge supporter of The Go-Giver and The Go-Giver books, which your viewers know all about. But yeah, what I do is I write books. I mean, I've done many things in my lifetime. My career has pinballed around all sorts of topics. But I am in this incarnation, I'm a writer and I published over 30 books. Most of them are in the realm of leadership, Personal development, that kind of thing. I've also written thrillers and some other things, but leadership has always been my bailiwick. And I think Dan and I really bonded around that because leadership fascinates both of us.

How did you two— I guess this one would be for John. How did you two, how did you two meet?

It was a dating app. No, it wasn't. It wasn't actually. So one day I got an email from Dan Rockwell. Who, who I forget the conversation exactly, but he proposed the idea of writing a book together. We hopped on the phone. And in the first phone call, I have to back up to say, I do get a lot of proposals to write books with people. This comes across my transom a great deal. In that first phone call, I was like, I am in, we're doing this book. I love it. I knew that he and I were going to work together. I knew this book was going to work. I knew I was already in love with it. And then the rest was just working out the details.

I love that. So, Dan, what's your, what's your take? Why did you reach out to John to write this book and not someone else? Or did you reach out to a lot of other people before him?

Oh, I've been dating around. Let me tell you. No, you know, I, this story has been in my head and in my heart for about 10 years, really. And I actually tried to write it 2 or 3 times and it was just crap. I didn't have, you know, I write every day, but I don't write narrative style. And the message of the book suits itself so well in narrative style. And I knew about the Go-Givers and Bob Burg, and I knew John David Mann's name, but had never met John. And so one of the things I've learned is you need a lot of help. And When you get help, you want to get the best. So he was my moonshot. I— he was to me, I think John is the best at what he does. And so I thought, why would I shoot for anything else? And I was very thankful when we got on the phone. I just told him the, you know, the core of the story. And I think he was maybe drinking or something. I don't know. But he liked it. That's all I needed. And I tell everybody that too on the, you know, how did that all happen? I said, well, we had this call and I told him the story and he said, I'm in. And that's how it started.

Yeah. Well, I think you guys are a good fit in terms of energy on the podcast so far. So, I can't wait to dive into this book and read the full thing. I love this parable-style book. I've read The Go-Giver and all of those other books so many times now. So this question can be for either of you, but tell the Book Thinkers audience about this book. Who is the book written for? What's it about? What are some of the things that people can expect to learn if they decide to pick up a copy of The Vagrant?

I'm gonna start, but John, I'd love to hear you as well. The book is written for losers because it's really kind of subtly or not so subtly my story. You know what I'm saying? It's a story, you know, this, it's a story of a guy who, really works hard and wants to do well and is reaching high and is continuing to shoot himself in the foot, engages in self-defeating behaviors. And, uh, you know, who hasn't engaged in self-defeating behaviors, if you know what I'm saying? So, uh, I, I got a long list of those, uh, and the book is for people who are— you just really want to do well, and all of a sudden they're realizing there's something perhaps internally That's holding them back.

Yeah, I mean, I'll add to that. It's something I've said on many podcasts. I've said this for years. It didn't just come about with the occurrence of this book, is that I look back on myself in my 20s. And, you know, I wasn't an evil person. I was, you know, relatively nice human. But I'm almost embarrassed to look back at myself in my 20s because I blundered through my life like a bull in a china shop. I couldn't get out of my own way in so many ways. And I went through many difficult, in some cases tragic situations in my life, which at the time were nothing but pain, but in retrospect, now reveal themselves to have been for the purpose of nudging me in the right direction or nudging me in a new direction, or giving me an opportunity to look at myself with a little more clear glass than the, than the rose-colored or the, or the milky opaque glass I was looking through. And so I really resonate. It's like, like Dan says, I think that we're like everybody else. There's an epigraph in the beginning of the book. There are a number of them, actually, but there's one from The Shawshank Redemption, this wonderful scene where Morgan Freeman is at his third and final parole hearing. And he says, I, you know, he talks about himself as a youth who committed murder is what got him incarcerated. And he says, I look back on that young, young stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to reach out to him. I want to talk to him, tell him how things are, but I can't. Because that, that, that kid is long gone. And this old man is all that's left. And that's kind of the spirit of the book. It's like if we could go back and, and talk to ourselves as younger individuals in our 20s, even just, you know, last year. talk to ourselves, what would we counsel? What would we say? What have we learned that we can benefit from? And, you know, that's what I think of when I look at that 20-year-old me and say, oh, well, glad I'm me now and not me then.

And I think that's beautiful and something that many of our listeners and myself can benefit from for sure, because we do, you know, Dan, you mentioned self-defeating behaviors, and I was like shaking my head because there's so many of those that I've spent the last— I'm 29 years old, but there's so many of those self-defeating behaviors over the last 10 years that I've worked on overcoming. And I just wish there was a shortcut, a quicker way to get there. And I think like books are definitely that thing.

Books.

Yes, exactly. And, you know, so I just, I love that. I love that when people sit there and they put their thoughts down to their younger selves and the thing that they wish they knew, and we can take that knowledge that you guys have put down. And I'm so excited to read this book. I don't have it yet, but I'm excited. It comes out September 19th. So super excited about that. But it's amazing when you guys can condense your knowledge over the last however many years it's been into the short-form parable, which I love. Dan, I want to go back to you. You mentioned self-defeating behaviors. What are some of those self-defeating behaviors that you've had and ones that you've worked on overcoming that you feel like at this point in your life that you have overcome?

Yeah. Thanks for asking that. I so appreciate Luke having to talk bad about myself. On a podcast. So seriously, you know, I think back to that 20-year-old self or the 25-year-old self, and I was showing up to prove I was right. I wasn't showing up to prove, you know, to listen to people and to ask questions and find the best way. I was showing up to figure out how to tell, demonstrate that they should do it my way. And, you know, that's just in management leadership. You can get away with that for a while, no doubt about it, but, uh, and maybe for a long time, but, uh, oh, we, we never reach our best that way. Uh, I, I was told, uh, for many years— I'm a slow learner— uh, I was told for many years, you know, you're pushy, and, uh, I'm a teddy bear. So now we have a disconnect between, you know, how I perceive myself and how other people perceive me. This is the perfect playground for self-defeating behaviors. I think I'm helping people. I think I'm helping myself. And I'm not really helping others. And I'm harming myself. Uh, my— one day my daughter said to me, and she's— as an adult, she said, Dad, I think you like to scare people. It's like, oh my, you know, and when you read the book, what you find are there are these junctures where Bob, the main character, comes face to face with those kinds of tough conversations. They're kind of dripped through the narrative. And I think we've all had them. I'm not sure, I know I didn't listen to them. You know, when I should have. So there's a couple, there's a few. My list of self-defeating behaviors is too long for this podcast, believe me.

Well, Dan, can I ask one follow-up question on that? So you just highlighted that sometimes self-defeating behaviors can be done with good intentions. And that's something that I hadn't really thought of before. Sometimes people self-harm knowing that they're self-harming because they're looking for— it's like a cry for help or something. But what you're saying is sometimes your intentions are good, but the outcome is bad. That's interesting.

It is.

And it is very discouraging when you start to realize what you did. In other words, you want to lead an organization, you want to lead your team. And so you show up at the meeting and you do what you— I mean, nobody gets up in the morning and saying, I want to be an idiot. We, we get up in the morning, we— and we have this perception that we're doing the right thing, we're making good decisions. I didn't decide today I want to make stupid decisions. I didn't decide today that I want to, like, unnecessarily offend somebody on my team. I didn't show— I didn't wake up today thinking, I want to be pushy today, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna push people into conformity, you know, because that's what leaders do.

No.

No, you know, so I think most of the things that we do that are self-defeating in leadership and management— we're not talking about, you know, like you're saying, sometimes we are hurting and we, we need somebody to care for us— but in leadership and management, most of those self-defeating behaviors are all very sincere. Everybody thinks that they're working and that's what they're supposed to do. Maybe they got the wrong image of what a leader does. You know, leaders are supposed to be this way. So yeah, and that's why it's prevalent, and I— and that's why I'm passionate about the message and the story as well.

John, do you have something to say? I saw you unmuted your mic, so I didn't know if you wanted to add to that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, here's something that I've learned, um, over my years on this planet. Something I've learned is that nobody knows you as well as you know yourself, except for the rest of the world. which actually knows you better than you know yourself. And that can be hard to accept as a young man. It was for me, a young, young person. There's, you know, the world is a mirror to us. The question is whether we look in that mirror. And it's— there is, there are a number of references to them, to a mirror and mirroring in the story. There's one entire chapter, there's a sort of a crisis point Bob arrives at, Where he goes into a men's room and looks in the mirror, washes his hands and looks in the mirror, and the next entire chapter takes place while he's looking in the mirror, looking at himself with new eyes and kind of taking a fresh, sobering examine— self-examination. Self-examination is in many ways the theme of the book. It's self-reflection. I've heard Dan say that self-reflection is really the heart of great leadership. And so self-reflection isn't something— this is something I learned from Dan— self-reflection isn't something that you necessarily do by yourself, which is kind of confusing at first. But one of the great tools for self-reflection is to listen to what other people are saying to you about you, is to look in the mirror that is the world around you. Look at people who have more experience than you do in this area or that area, or look at people who, who have a clearer eye than you do because they're less involved. Perhaps they can look from a different standpoint. The world is your mirror. And, um, you know, you can shut your eyes and drive on blind, but, uh, life is better when you look in the mirror.

In your opinion, how would you start to get a more accurate view of of yourself, of reality? Like, where would somebody start to get a more accurate view of how they lead and how they manage and how they interact with people?

I'm gonna pitch this one to Dan because actually in the back of the book, first, I guess I should say the book itself is a parable. It's a story. It doesn't have 7 principles for this or 5 laws for that, unlike many, many parables. It's more like The Alchemist in the sense that it's just a story. It doesn't, insist that you look at this or that principle. It tells the story and then leaves it up to you to kind of draw the lessons. But then after the story, there's a section that Dan wrote, which is an answer to your question. It's really, okay, how do I go about doing this? How do I put this into action? And one of the things he addresses is, how do I get a— how do I go about getting a clear picture of myself? So over to you, Dan.

Thanks, John. Uh, well, the, the— for me, the application of the story and the, the solution to self-defeating behaviors begins with self-reflection. So we, we need to do that, but structured self-reflection, not simply, you know, thinking like, you know, sitting under a tree contemplating the meaning of life. And by the way, there's, there's some usefulness to doing that kind of thing. But we're— I'm writing to leaders and managers, and, you know, our message is for, for those people. It actually applies in a lot of areas, you know, moms and dads and all of that. But anyway, uh, structured self-reflection, I think, is part of that journey. And one of the 5 practices at the end of the book is about inviting others in. One of the simplest ways to do this, Luke, is to say to— for example, you're leading team meetings, and who doesn't hate meetings, right? And so you're leading team meetings, and one of the people, you know, you're saying, I want to, I want to lead energizing meetings. I want people to walk out of my meetings with more energy than they walked in. That's a good goal. So what you do is you go to a couple of people on the team and say, look, Here's my goal. And what I would like you to do, if you would please, is just pay attention in the meeting and notice when the energy goes down. Notice when the energy goes up. Now you have people, you say after the meeting, what did you notice? What was I doing when things went downward? What was I doing when things went upward? And they give you this feedback. And now you have something you can sit back and say. I need to look at myself now because if I want to lead energizing meetings, it starts with me. And now I need to reflect on, uh, you know, the kind of person I want to be, how I want to show up, what does my best self look like. But it's done with others in that case because self-reflection in isolation leads to self-deception. Uh, and, and, and that's not a 100% law of the universe. I'm just saying in general, if we're not careful, because we don't intentionally, we don't intentionally do stupid things, but we do, we do those things. So we need a little bit of outside input.

Well, I love, I love both of your answers there. And yeah, it reminds me of a study. I'll get the, the actual stats wrong, but I read this study years and years ago in a nonfiction book that said something like, your college roommate, after the first day of getting to know you, has a more accurate view of your reality than you do, or something like that. And it's because they've observed your behavior. They start to get to know you a little bit. They watch how you interact and keep things neat or disorganized, how you eat at the dining hall, how you interact with strangers, and boom, they know you better than you know yourself. So yeah, I totally get what you're both saying. And I, when I look back at my late teens and early 20s, I had a lot of well-intentioned self-destructive behavior. On one side of the spectrum, I dealt with an ego that would often represent itself at the expense of other people, and I thought I was furthering my voice. In reality, I was really hurting it. And on the other side of the spectrum, I had a lot of social anxiety and insecurities, and I would try to protect myself from public situations and as a result, handicap future situations, progress, things of that nature. So I can totally relate with what both of you are saying. And the solution did not happen in isolation. I had to get, had to have a lot of those rough conversations that you had mentioned earlier, Dan. So it sounds like that's probably a common narrative with most people. I mean, would you guys agree?

Yeah. And I'll give you a great example that just take it out of the leadership realm for a moment just to give it a a broader context. This is something every writer goes through. And it's one of the most significant events or steps or situations in a writer's life. And that is working with an editor. And that is very difficult for many writers, or I should say many would-be writers. A lot of people who would like to become writers don't achieve that because they can't make this step. They don't learn how to absorb, to hear and absorb and utilize critique effectively. And when you sit down with an editor, basically what you're going to do is you're going to say, I've put my best effort into this. It's like Dan said, I didn't intend to write a bad passage. I didn't intend to write a bad book. I put my best effort into this. I've gone over it and over it. It's the best that I can do. Now I give it to you. And the editor comes back and says 2 things. First thing they say is, Everything they love about it. And then the second thing they say is the things where they think it could be better, the places where it doesn't live up to its own intention, the places where it makes an attempt but doesn't quite succeed. But it could if it were adjusted. That's what a good editor tells you. And the editor will point out where the passage falls short. Well, you know, what we're really talking about is having editors in our lives that say, I'm examining the first draft, which is how you've just done things. It's good. Here's what I love about it. And you know what, it could be so much better. And here's some things I see you may not have noticed. You didn't notice, obviously, because you didn't, you didn't do them. And you know what, I'm, as I said, I published over 30 books. I'm not new at this. But it is still painful for me Every single time, it's difficult for me. Every time I get it, I get an editorial letter back on a new book. It just happened to me six months ago. I get a new new editorial letter back. I read it and I go, and then I put it aside for three days. My wife knows this about me because I can't, I can't quite absorb it yet. I need to give it time to kind of settle emotionally. Like intellectually, I know that the editor is right, probably, but I can't. See it. And so there's a sort of a period of adjustment where I have to take it in, take it in, sift it and say, okay, now I would— I understand that what she's saying is actually could make a better book. Or what these people are saying about me as a leader isn't meant to harm me. It's meant to make me a better leader. It's meant to make more of my dreams come true. It's meant to make me become a bigger person. And so you have to have kind of a certain level of faith, I think, in yourself and faith in the outcome and humility. And by humility, I don't mean abasing yourself. I mean the capacity to sit back and say, okay, I know some stuff, but I don't know all stuff. And hear what the editor has to say. That's really kind of the message of the book. There's a passage in the book where Bob bumps into something that says, Um, uh, it says humility is when you— something— it's something like this: humility is when you learn to get your ego out of the way. Humiliation is when you don't and the world has to do it for you.

I love that.

That's awesome.

One of the— one of the things I just want to toss something in because John taught me, uh, one of the favorite things John taught me is When you get these edits back, and this is sort of connected to the conversation, but I just had to say it, uh, uh, uh, is when people give you these critiques and they say, well, that's not clear, that doesn't really make sense, they're, they're almost always right. When they tell you how to fix it, they're almost always wrong. And that's because they're not you. It's not arrogance. It's just like, no, no, listen to that. You know, you're, you're, you're a pushy. That's not clear. You talk too much. You're loud. And, and listen to that. Now, they may say you should do this or that. Don't let other people run your life. Obviously pay attention. But you have to decide, how do I want to address those particular issues?

How can we, how can we begin to Take criticism better? Because I think everyone at some point like struggles with taking criticism. They either take it as a blow personally, like that's kind of what I do. It's like when people give me criticism, I've gotten better, but when people give me criticism, I was like, oh, you know what, I'm a piece of crap. I've, I don't know anything. I'm so stupid and all this. And then there's the other extent which it's like, oh, that person doesn't know what they're talking about. They're idiots. But how do we just get better in general at taking that criticism in and not taking it so personally? And I guess, John, maybe you can start and then Dan can give the second part.

First, I'm gonna say that there are ways to give critique that certainly are more helpful than others. And I'm just gonna start with that, which is that, you know, I have a rule about critique, which is love first, suggestion second, always in that order, never in the opposite order. And I've noticed every great editor I've worked with does that. First, they tell you what they love about that. This is what we do with our kids. We say, that was great how you did that. I'm so proud of you. I'm so impressed about how you did your best to help your little sister. I, you know, then I might add, probably stepping on her head isn't the way to help her, you know, or whatever it is that, you know, you want to suggest to correct. So that's, those are the rules of giving critique. But in terms of how to take advice or take suggestions, take criticism, I think it's develop the reflex of having faith in the outcome, that what this criticism is for, whether they mean it or not, Is for you to find a better you, a better way of doing things, a better version of you, a Luke 2.8 instead of a 2.7. There's a better you just over the horizon, which this criticism is designed to help you find. It's not designed to cut you down, push you back, make you smaller. It's designed to pull you forward and make you larger.

I love that. Dan, do you have, do you have anything to add to that?

Well, Let's talk about the inner critic first. Love what John said, right? That they have a reflexive reaction. And I think that's important. The leaders that I work with, sometimes I'll tell them, look, you need something in your hip pocket. When something happens that sets you off, what are you going to say every time it happens? Right? So for example, for me, when somebody put— I'm maybe leading a meeting or I'm working with someone and they start to push back. Or they start to say, well, that's not right. The very first thing out of my mouth is always the same thing. It's that reflexive reaction. And that is, thanks for saying that. It helps set the tone. It helps me settle down because I get— my adrenaline gets going and my brain shrinks. I don't— you know what I mean? It's fight or flight, and that's no good. So what John says is just wonderful and, and so true. But the inner critic is such a common thing in our lives that defeats us. You talk about self-defeating behaviors, and I don't know anybody who doesn't struggle with a voice in their head that says, you could, you should be better. What's wrong with you? My favorite thing to say to myself is, loser, you're a loser, you know, and that just really sets up a great relationship with people. So one of the projects, and this is not in the book, but one of the projects I ask, I have people that I work with do, is just make a list of everything your inner critic says. That's all. Don't judge it. Don't try to fix it. It kind of fits back into the, you know, noticing. Just notice. That's all. Don't do any more. And once you get that list done for a day, a couple days, Uh, just look, read over the list and throw the list away. And you would be surprised how that helps people on the journey. I'm not sure you can put your inner critic to death, and maybe you shouldn't. Sometimes your inner critic is right. You should have done this, you should have done that. But, um, just noticing that language. The other thing I would recommend, Luke, on this, which I think is, uh, it may be, uh, useful is instead of waiting for people to come to you with suggestions, aggressively seek feedback. Now, don't do it needy, like, oh, how am I doing? Do you like me? You know, not that way. Seek feedback very specifically. Like I mentioned before, if you're going to run a meeting, set the goal. This is what I'm working on. And then ask for specific feedback instead of like, you know, somebody sharing everything. Because here's the problem: bad is stronger than good. So you hear one bad thing and you hear 5 good things. What do you remember?

Right?

It's just tough. So there's a few things that kind of related specifically, Luke, to what you're asking about.

Well, I really appreciate that a lot. I'm over here taking vigorous notes. So Appreciate that. Thanks for your kindness, both of you. Um, getting back a little bit to the book, I love how you guys basically portray this— the protagonist, which is Bob, right? And he raises through the ranks of, uh, what is it, medical, in the medical field? And then he basically becomes homeless. Why did you guys decide to like throw such a drastic like change for this man's life? And either of you can, can start with the answer.

I, I think I'd start by saying, I don't know if you've ever read this book called the Book of Job, but it's, uh—

I have, yes.

It's, it's a fairly extreme little tale, and yet it's, uh, it is in its essence not so unlike things that many of us have experienced. Not quite to that extent. Um, yeah, Bob is, is a brilliant guy. He's a, he's a rising executive. He's in, in data processing. He's a data guy. And he's quite sharp at it. He's got his eye on the, on the, you know, upper corporate ranks. And we basically take Bob and we take everything away from him one by one. We just get really cruel. We take away his job, we take away his reputation, we take away his money, we take away his favorite car. We take away his cushy, sweet little apartment with all of its accessories and his espresso maker and his favorite chair. And we We eventually take away his health and we beat him up in an alley and basically we treat Bob, we put him through the wringer is what we do. It's because Bob has not been looking in the mirror and so the mirror has to get louder and louder and louder until he listens. It's just like a mom raising her voice. It's funny because when we started Dan had had this, the beginning of the story in mind, and he had sort of a trajectory. But we didn't have the whole story worked out in terms of what's going to happen at every stage of the way and where is it eventually going to lead. And so, you know, as the story evolved, it was kind of a wild experience to sort of see where it led and the extremes that it went to. It's not too extreme, but, you know, Bob has a pretty rough time. And, you know, I think that we did that because in a story, the difficult things to happen to heroes resonate with us in our own lives, even though we don't go through those exact same things. So I've never been beaten up in the back of an alley, but I've— but when I see what Bob goes through, it resonates with my life. Sometimes stories have to say it in an extreme way. for you to really get it. It's like in The Alchemist, Santiago travels all the way across, you know, Egypt, and there's pirates in the desert and all this stuff. But you resonate. It's one of everybody's favorite books. So this is a— this is a— that's why we have a little excerpt from the Book of Job at the beginning of the book before it commences, because this is the journey that you're about to go on as you go through these pages. And I promise you're going to come out in a good place.

I love it. Well, gentlemen, in the essence of time, what I'd like to do is kick it back to Luke one more time. He has a famous last question now for the podcast, and I'm sure he'll ask it to both of you. So, Luke, who goes first?

Yeah, we can kick it off with Dan and then, John, you can, you can end us out. So this is the last question I love to ask, and it's if all the information that you have put out everything you pass on and all that information, every, all the books, everything you have written, everything you've put out, courses, whatever has disappeared and you can leave the world with one single piece of advice, what would it be? Dan, if you want to go first and don't rush. Don't rush.

It's just the only thing that will live on forever.

Yes. It's a great question. And I'm not sure I would give the same answer every day, Luke. So just to be fair, I'm not sure I would give the same answer. But when I think about the trajectory of Bob in the story, it is— and one of the things I love about the story is that it's a downward trajectory. Things get dark for him before they start to move up. And I'm all about that. I like to watch dark movies. You know, if there isn't dark stuff in it, you know, I'm not really that excited about it. You know, you gotta have a few killings and things like that. And please don't tell anybody I said that.

Like Gladiator, great example.

Like the— yeah, just a small example, like Gladiator. So what is the one word of advice The one thing I would like to say to the world, if I could only say one thing, uh, this is going to sound— how do you avoid a cliché? Uh, I, I think I would say, uh, learn to, uh, bring your best self to the world. Now, that involves the story of the vagrant. You know, to bring your best self. Not just—I don't want to just say be yourself because I—I've—I bristle at the sometimes that that's used as a self-protective, like oh, that's not really me. No, no, we can learn. Introverts can become extrovert, learn how to be extroverts. People who don't like to talk can learn to talk. You know, we can learn a lot of things, so we have to figure out what we want to accomplish in life, what we want to achieve in life, and then develop the skills and. really become that kind of person that we might admire ourselves. So I think today, Luke, what I would say is bring your best self to the world, just, and that's an iterative process. They're just gonna, it's gonna be ongoing. When you're 25, it's one thing. When you're 35, it's another thing. When you're 45, it's another thing.

I love that. And I think it also ties into just continual learning, you know, learning about yourself and self-reflection. So great answer. Great answer. All right, John, we'll kick it over to you.

Yeah, I would say floss. But, but if I were gonna say more, it's a good piece of advice. But if I were gonna say more, I think I'd say, and this takes a little exegesis too, but trust the story that is your life. And what I mean by that is that, you know, our lives, each of our lives are unfolding stories, just like a novel, just like a story. And it's not always obvious where it's going. And I wholeheartedly agree with Dan, you know, the advice to just be yourself, it's similar to the advice to just follow your passion. You know, sometimes you're passionate about stupid things. And sometimes the you, you are today is definitely not your best self. So just being you could just be be a jerk, and that's not really what you want to do. So it's about the path that you're on, the journey that you're on. And I think what— I guess what I'm trying to say about that is trust that journey. Um, you may not— you may be getting it wrong. Hearing advice of elders is part of it. Having encounters with people you didn't expect that take you in new directions is part of it. All of the very best things that have happened to me in my life My relationship with my wife, my marriage, stumbling into writing the Go-Giver books with Bob, this book with Dan, all the best things. Not one of them has happened as a result of my plan. I didn't plan any of these things. All the stuff that I planned was nowhere near as good as the stuff that's actually happening that I listened to. But you have to, you know, the only way a story unfolds is if you let it unfold. So trust the story that is your life.

2 wonderful pieces of advice. I can relate to both of them. I wish that my younger self had heard both of them. Luke and I love to talk about these subjects. So this was a perfect podcast conversation from my perspective. To wrap everything up, where can people go to find out more about this book?

Well, obviously it's going to be, it is currently on all the major sellers. Right. So if you go to Amazon or Barnes& Noble or any of those places, uh, it's currently there. And so go buy it, um, and listen to this podcast and, and go down to your bookstore in person and say, get this book. So, but, um, uh, I, I, I would say, uh, do you want me to give a little, like, you can get in touch with me? What, you know, I'm a little—

Sure, if you're open to it.

Yeah. So both John and I are available online and we both have websites and Leadership Freak would be a place where, you know, there'll be more and more information about the book. And my email address is dan@leadershipfreak.com.

Leadership Freak is, from my perspective, the most respected, most popular leadership blog on the planet. It's so— Dan's been doing it for years and years. And everybody that I bump into and I say, I just wrote a book with Dan Rockman, they go, oh, Dan, we love his stuff. So, uh, this keeps happening often enough that there seems to be a pattern to it. So go to Leadership Freak. You too will say, oh, Dan's stuff, I love it. And, um, you can find me at johndavidmann.com. It's my website. It's where I do everything. Um, but yeah, the books, the books are available. And I also want to put a plug in for indie bookstores, your local independent bookseller, if you have one. Go, don't just buy the book there, go talk to them about it. The voice of authors in this country is the independent bookseller. You can buy books at Amazon, you can buy them at Barnes& Noble, they're great. But indie bookstores are, indie booksellers are the lifeblood of the author's career. So we love you indie bookstores and enjoy the book.

Wow, guys, thank you so much for coming today. Dan, just a really quick plug too. I actually, I didn't realize who you were until I saw that it was Leadership Free. I was like, oh, that Dan. I was like, I totally know that guy, which is amazing. So I've read many of your articles on your, on your blog. So keep up the great work, guys. I loved both your energy. This has been an awesome conversation. Thanks for coming on today.

Thank you.

Thank you.