Curiosity is the Key to Great Leadership with Doug Hensch

And I also think if you come at somebody with curiosity, say, hey, seems like you're a little agitated, you're not having a good day, what's going on, right? Because everybody, even our kids, they're carrying some burden. And that's, by the way, that's one of the things that I also, when I'm kind of triggered, I look at somebody else and I think, well, what burden are they carrying? So I get out of my own head and I try to empathize and go, wow, this person must, if they're acting this way, mean and inconsiderate, something's going on with them. And I get out of my own head and like, how much have I been disrespected? Who gives a shit, right? Let's worry about them. And then I calm down.

Doug, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. We are excited to chat with you today. I want to paint a picture for the audience. One summer, you found yourself in a bind. You had to deliver an on-site workshop for a client who was about 30 minutes away from home, and you couldn't find anybody to watch the kids. Tell us what happens next.

I'm not— I'm wondering if I'm gonna get locked up for telling this story, but I guess I put it in my book, so I should be okay. So, you know, I had to leave my kids home. I'm a single dad. And what I wanted to do was give them a chance to be responsible. I wanted to test them and And see what they could— how they could handle my being away for a couple of hours. And when I got home, my younger son, Zach, when I say bound down the front steps, I mean it literally. I think he jumped about 10 feet. And he was so excited to tell me that he had picked up around the house, unloaded the dishwasher, just done some house cleaning. And he was so proud of himself that it's just an example of why it's so important to give people a level of autonomy in their lives. You know, everybody has somebody telling them what to do, but the more that we can give some level of autonomy to people, it helps them really be motivated to do bigger and better things and just be a healthy, happy person.

Well, after you— let's go back to that moment for a minute. After you got over the initial shock and awe of it, did you continue to give them autonomy? Was that something that you then did more of? I'm just curious, especially as a first-time parent. My first baby's coming soon. Luke has 3 kids with a 4th on the way. So, we love these parenting lessons.

And, I love talking parenting because is there going to be a more important thing I do in my life? And, my wife and I were talking, I've often told people that I I don't know what's more difficult, leadership, parenting, or marriage. And, you know, we were on a walk this morning and I just said, it's parenting. Parenting is the most difficult thing, you know, because our biases are just, we want to help, we want to clear obstacles and do all that stuff. So to answer your question, I gave them more autonomy. And when I have my intro meeting as an executive coach, when I tell my clients, A couple of things they're not going to hear from me. They're not going to hear, you have to, you need to, you should. That just doesn't come out of my mouth. It's the same thing with my kids, right? They've got, you know, my younger son got sunburned the other day and I said, hey, Nick, suntan lotion would probably be a good idea. I didn't say you have to. And he got burned and he knows now that the next time he goes out there, he's going to learn not to do it. When my kids were younger, I didn't say, I didn't, you know, knock their hands away and try to tie their shoes because we were late for, you know, baseball practice. I waited for them to say, hey, Dad, can you help me? And that's, you know, when they told me, that's when I went in and tried to teach them.

So powerful. I think it's something that we often miss, especially as parents, is giving our kids the free rein to make mistakes. I heard a story. Recently, somebody talked about letting their kid run down the pier and get a splinter. And even though your instinct wants to stop the kid from doing that, you have to allow them to make that mistake in order to learn. So I think it's the same thing as your sunburn story. So how can we as leaders in companies correlate that and use that with our employees and the people that are under us?

Yeah, Luke, it's such a good question. And I think it's one of the bigger mistakes that leaders often make, particularly when they're leading young people or Young people are in their first leadership roles. It's all about how do I tell people what to do? They feel this pressure to have all the answers. And that's why the subtitle is How to Lead When You Don't Have All the Answers, because nobody has all the answers, right? Awesome. Thank you, Nick. And that's where curiosity comes in is when you demonstrate a little bit of vulnerability. So if Nick were my boss and he was trying to help me with something that maybe didn't have a lot of expertise in. You know, Nick gains— actually, he gains power and influence with me when he demonstrates humility by saying, Doug, what do you think we should do? What have you tried? Where do you think we should go? How might someone else approach this?

So out of all the things that you could have written about with leadership, why was curiosity at the top of your mind?

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Because when I think about all the situations that leaders face, of course they've got to be decisive, creative, innovative. They've got to be problem solvers. All of these things are improved when you are more curious because they help feed, you bring in the minds and the brains of the people around you. And then the other part of that, so it makes you better at these key areas for being a great leader. And then the other thing that I love about it is there are actually very few situations in leadership and in life where just a little bit of curiosity actually doesn't get in the way, right? It's almost a— it's a little bit of a magic wand in my mind. It's my go-to. It doesn't solve every problem. The more that we use it, the better we get at it, and the more we bring in knowledge and learn and gain experience.

So I've thought often about this, and we've kind of talked around it a little bit so far, which is this idea that asking questions requires humility. And I think it does. None of us want to be looked at as ignorant or wrong, or that, you know, we're slow to catch up or something like that. And for me, that started in school. I mean, I remember not wanting to raise my hand, even though I was a little bit behind, because I didn't want to be made fun of, or I didn't want people to think, hey, Nick doesn't get it, or Nick's a little slow, or whatever the case is. And I think that that translates into our working lives a lot, where we don't want to be looked at as the person that just doesn't get it. And therefore, we fall even farther behind. So, what advice do you have for somebody listening today that is an employee and it's tough for them to ask questions and be curious?

Yeah, I would say to them, think, pay attention to one of the tasks that I often give my coaching clients or I should say they take on when I put it out there as an offer is to create a notebook, what I call a hero's journal, and start paying attention to the people in your life, the leaders, the non-leaders. By the way, I think we're all leaders in one way or another. Pay attention to their behaviors. How do they dress? How do they ask questions? How do they handle questions? And I think what you'll find, what they'll find, Is that the best leaders actually do ask a lot of questions and they demonstrate that vulnerability. So vulnerability, in my opinion, is the foundation of building trust. So by putting yourself out there, you're just saying, I'm willing to be connected to you and I'm willing to learn. It's another way to look at it.

So who's in your hero's journal? Like when you think of a leader that exemplifies curiosity, like who's, who do you think of?

Gosh, this might be a tired example, but I've watched the movie Lincoln about 47 times, and I've read, you know, multiple books. Team of Rivals is in my top 5, and it's because he demonstrated such a level of humility. His cabinet, right? Team of Rivals, name of the book. His cabinet were all the people that wanted to beat him out for president. And he was asked, why would you go into this, you know, this, this den of wolves that are going to attack you? And he said, because they're the best people to handle the problems that our country faces right now. Right. So he was curious with them and he listened from them. He learned from them. And, you know, in my very humble opinion, he is the greatest president of all time.

One of the things, one of the byproducts of reading so many books is that I've become more curious and Oftentimes I'll actually seek out information that I originally don't agree with. And I've started to become aware of that, like, why don't I agree with this information? Or what makes me uncomfortable about this subject? And then I'll choose to read it. And it seems like that, that awareness that other people's opinions have value, and they matter, and we should go learn what makes them so passionate about the thing that they view I think that's been a really cool byproduct of reading. Have you found the same thing?

100%. You know, in fact, you know, we're in the middle of the political season, right? Jonathan Haidt's— why am I forgetting the name of his book that came out in about 2009? The Righteous Mind. Sorry. Right. And I think it's something like The Righteous Mind: Why Liberals and Conservatives Fight So Much About Politics and Religion. and all this stuff, right? And I went in with, you know, kind of one side of the equation a little bit more. And I didn't come out necessarily changing my beliefs on what we should be doing with guns, abortion, taxes, the military, right? But I understood the other side. And I have to tell you, it was almost like a physical weight went off of my shoulders to understand someone else's point of view. And, you know, over the course of a couple of years now, What evolved my hypothesis around truly influencing another human being? Two things have to take place: they have to feel heard. So do what you're doing, like listening. But this isn't a conversation, and then make sure they feel understood. And by the way, those are two not easy things to do, right? We want to jump in. We want to tell people why our candidate, our position on something at work is more important. And then you. You paraphrase, you let them know, I've heard you, and then both people grow at the same time.

So I'm curious with that, is there— do you think it's ever— how do I phrase this? I'm trying not to be too controversial here, but to change people's minds, do you think that is advantageous? Do you think we should approach things that way? Is it important to change people's minds? How do we approach?

I think it is listening, and I think it's asking questions, and I think it's understanding your own biases. Also understanding, and I hate this word, but it's your triggers. I don't, by the way, I don't like the word trigger because it almost implies that we have no control over how we're going to react to things, right? At the same time, look, I'm an old white guy, and you know, I'm not always on the right side of things. My point is this, is that the more that we can do to listen to other people, and you know, this is where humility comes in, that one of the elements of true intellectual humility is actually being willing to change your own mind, right? So, you know, that's what Nick is doing by reading. That's what we're all doing here by having this conversation, Luke. And I think the more that we can do that and And even come in with tentative language. It's not just about asking questions, but it's, it's not saying, you know, I was listening to a podcast a couple of years ago and I stopped because this one guy, one of the hosts would, would begin almost every sentence with, you know, the fact of the matter is, and then he would share his beliefs, right? You know, if you want to tell me, you know, this is what GDP is and this is what, you know, how many guns are in the country, fine. But don't then tell me what your opinion is.

Yeah, there's a— I heard somebody say once that, well, maybe I'll ask you this question rather than just state that it's a cool question that I hear people ask. What's something, Doug, that you've changed your mind on over the last, say, 5 years? Does anything come to mind?

Over the last 5 years, like something I've changed my mind about, you know, I would say that it's probably just around how— I'm not sure there's a specific issue, but it is actually just being more willing to listen to people and to be very curious about how they got there, no matter how outrageous I think their position is. I just go, what is it that— What's motivating them? What made them get up on this side of the bed today that they're taking this position? And maybe what am I missing? Where am I wrong on this? Right? And I think I've just been more willing to do that, Nick. I'd have to think about that though. So you guys all just have to have me on next month again.

Yeah. Happy to have you on again to chat more about it. The reason I thought of that question and Love him or hate him. But Joe Rogan as a podcast host is somebody who is always willing to have a conversation with somebody that he doesn't really agree with. And he's always willing to change his mind. That's something that I respect. I think the, the emotional awareness to recognize that you might not be right, and that somebody else might know more about a subject than you do and might be able to present information that ends up leading to a change in your own head, and then be willing to say, hey, last year I thought this, things have changed for me, I've come to a new understanding, that's okay. And, you know, as far as politics go, because we're in the middle of that season right now, if only we could all sit down and say, I agree with some things from this side, some things from that side, neither party represents my beliefs in a wholesome way. And that's okay. And we should all be willing to have conversations about it without attacking each other. I mean, what a beautiful world that would be.

It is, Nick. It is absolutely ridiculous that families can't sit down at Thanksgiving dinner and just talk about this stuff without it becoming anger and fighting and people leaving and saying, I'm never coming back. I agree. You know, I— and by the way, one of my mentors taught me that when somebody Hits a nerve, they say something that you really disagree with at a core level that just bothers you and you're starting to think this person's unethical, immoral, bad, whatever it might be, is my go-to is tell me more. Because it shuts me up and prevents me from saying something that I probably will regret because I'm hijacked at that point. And it also just gets me more information. Because, you know, one of the things I want to do is just get other people to explain their thinking. You know, quite often, you know, we haven't, you know, the 3 of us right here, we haven't thought through our ideas properly. You know, I mean, so I think it's important for us all to take the time to have these conversations and express why we learn and be willing to change our minds.

Why do you think so many people, all of, I mean, I probably, me, I've done this. Nick's done this, you've probably done this. Why do we start with getting defensive and needing to like just prove our point? Like, why do we get stuck there instead of naturally just going to the curiosity side of tell me more?

Yeah, I suspect it's evolutionary, right? The more that you're right, the more that you're able to, you know, be seen as powerful and tell people what to do, the more, you know, the bigger cave you had, the more resources you had, the more mates you could attract. And unfortunately, we've outlived that and we have to kind of fight our genetics just a little bit. You know, going back to what Nick said, you know, raising his hand was not comfortable. Same, same with me. And just saying you're wrong, it's this, I think it's the same principle is we just have to be aware. That's, that's why I do practice mindfulness every day. And it creates that a little bit more space between someone asking or saying something I don't like. And, you know, I get in that space, I get to ask myself, who do I want to be right now? And quite often the answer is, I want to be curious. I want to be mindful. I want to listen to what this person has to say.

Yeah. Forgive my pronunciation of this ancient Greek name, but in your book you have a quote that says, the only constant in life is change. 35 BC, that's Heraclitus. Heraclitus.

There we go.

And you say that he gets a high five for that one and that maybe you'd buy him a beer if you had a chance to bump into him these days. That's so true what you said about the mindfulness piece. I mean, that's been my biggest, I would say, change in emotional intelligence over the last 10 years from practicing daily mindfulness is that there's more space between the input to my brain and my reaction for processing and logic to step in and slow things down and allow me to make a better, more rational choice. What form of mindfulness do you practice, Doug?

I start off every morning with some deep breathing. I personally like the 4-7-8 methodology, and I work into a body scan, and then I do a loving kindness meditation. You two will be a part of mine tomorrow morning because you'll be top of mind.

Yes.

And just find that I literally don't even need it. I still drink my cup of coffee, but I don't need it. After I practice this mindfulness, it just gets my day off. And by the way, it's not 25 minutes, it's not 30 minutes, it's just, I don't know, 5, 10 minutes tops. It just sets my day. And I also do another thing, Nick, that I've talked to a lot of my clients about is, you know, those silicone wristbands that people wear for different charities and so forth?

Yeah.

One of my favorite, I call it the mindfulness wristband, is, you know, if I have a recurring thought That gets in my way, you know, like thinking about an ex-wife or an ex-girlfriend or boyfriend, whatever it might be, something that's pissing you off, is every— and you feel like it's diverting you from doing important things and thinking about things that make sense for your life to move you forward. It's just every time you think about it, move it from one wrist to the next and challenge yourself to move on to something else. And every time you come back to it, move it to the next wrist, go back and forth. What I have found, it takes me about a day, day and a half, and all of a sudden those thoughts just Just don't even creep up anymore. I'm not trying to escape pain. What I am trying to do is escape, move away from unproductive thoughts. So I'm kind of all over the board on mindfulness. I just, I invested in it probably 10, 12 years ago and it's changed my life.

I love those, those practices and those tips are so helpful. I do a lot of things like that too. I have a lot of intrusive thoughts or what have you. The simple things, Like, I, I'm very, very, very intentional these days on focusing on all the wins because I have this natural proclivity to the negative. So if I make a mistake, that's what I ruminate on and think about. But, um, I've been learning to now, even the smallest thing, I got outta bed on time, that's a win. Boom, check. Like just those little things are so helpful. So I actually really like that wristband trick. I've heard that before said in a different way, but I think like that's something I need to integrate into, into my life as well. Now, I'd love to understand, maybe like we can shift a little bit back into the concepts from your book. And when it comes to maybe what are some of the common things that get in the way of curiosity in the workplace? And like, how can leaders overcome them? Like if people are resistant to, you know, being curious, like on a work meeting, you know, you get curious about your employees and you want to ask about their lives, but they're like, I don't want to talk about that. Leave that. You know, leave that at home or whatever. What's your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so, you know, there's all different— I mean, I feel like there's 2 major flavors of curiosity. One is when, you know, something really interesting. So I think I wrote in the book about World War II history for me is if I see a documentary, come on, it's over, you know, like just put everything away. That's what I'm going to watch, you know. And then there's the other, which is where I decide to direct my attention towards The new budget, a new client we're trying to an RFP we're trying to write whatever it might be. I think this comes to culture, and this is why I think focusing on culture and your own behavior and understanding that we don't want to punish people for them asking questions, and we want to model it. Now going back specifically to what you said about personal questions. Yeah, this is where I think one-on-one time with people is important and you get a better feel where their boundaries are. And you create a safe space and you say, hey, Luke, I noticed when I asked you that question in the team meeting, you didn't seem comfortable with that. Just let me know you'd rather not go there and no punishment. I think that's the big thing is right. And I know it's becoming a tired term, But psychological safety, where everyone feels comfortable saying whatever is on their mind without fear of repercussion, is actually still very, very important.

Yeah. And it's funny, like, as a parent, I have realized, you know, growing up, the thing for me was always punishment, punishment, punishment, punishment, right? And I've done like the exact opposite with my kids. It's like rewarding the good behaviors, the things that I want them to do. And then not punishing the bad behaviors, but actually getting curious about their bad behaviors. And I see that too in the workplace. I'm starting to implement the same thing. And it is amazing how much of a difference it has because it shows that you care about the person and not just about, well, whatever the outcome or whatever it is that you're trying to get done, but you actually care about them as a person. And that goes a long way.

Yeah. And, you know, so I asked my coach a number of years ago because my younger son was kind of not being super nice to my older son. only like 17 months apart. So there was a lot of rivalry, right? And I said, you know, so my coach, I said, hey, Paul, do you, how often do you punish your kids or punished because they were a little older? And, you know, he paused for like an uncomfortable amount of time. And then he said, you know, there was one time I sent him to a room and I'm like, so what do you do? And he goes, well, I'll give you an example. So I don't know one of his kids' name. Let's call him, you know, David, he was being a little disrespectful and they were in the kitchen. And he said, you know, David, here's the deal. I don't really like the way you're talking to me. So I'm going to go over there and I don't really want to be around you right now. And when you decide that you want to be more respectful, I'm happy to talk to you. Right. And I also think if you come at somebody with curiosity, say, hey, seems like you're a little Agitated, you're not having a good day. What's going on? Right? Because everybody, even our kids, they're they're carrying some burden. And that's by the way, that's one of the things that I also when I'm kind of triggered, I look at somebody else and I think, well, they what what burden are they carrying? So I get out of my own head and I try to empathize and go, wow, this person must if they're acting this this way that's mean and and inconsiderate, something's going on with them. And I get out of my own head and like how much have I been disrespected? Who gives a shit, right? Let's worry about them. And then I calm down, right?

Yeah, I remember years and years ago in a prior life working in a physical office space and you're around your coworkers a lot, leaders and people who might work on your team. And I think that when you're in a physical location like that, you can collect more data. You're around the water cooler, you might hear some more gossip, but remote teams, seem like they're a little harder to gauge sometimes because you don't have as much data. Have you found that curiosity is more important today than maybe it was back when everybody was working in physical offices?

Without a doubt, Nick. And this is one of— I don't necessarily have all the answers, and I think that there is a lot of context to what we should be doing around remote work. I will tell you this, here's some data for you. Is that when teams get together today, so if we all come together in Chicago or Boston, anywhere, the energy and the love and the compassion and the empathy in the room, everybody is smiling, happy to see each other. There's just a lot of good vibes. Now, my business is more efficient because I can coach people over Zoom. And it has launched my business so that I have more clients than I could when, when I was driving to Fairfax, to Loudoun, to Arlington, right, all over the place. Now, curiosity is more important, I think, because we're getting less data and we've got to clarify with people, which I think brings us to, you know, some of our calls and the way that we run meetings, probably just to take 5 or 10 minutes of what's on your mind. What you— you know, one of my favorite things is what's your one word And it might be tired, angry, embarrassed, right? And you let the team just go around. So this way, if Doug says angry, we know that he's maybe not at his best today, or if he's tired, he's not going to say as much. So I do think we have to be a little bit more patient with ourselves and with other people because this is, this is not natural. This is not the way human beings— we didn't evolve. To be talking to each other over Zoom and Teams.

Yeah, it's such a good point. I'm wondering, how can we approach it without, as leaders, without tons of judgment? Because I think sometimes that's the, that's the almost like the mindset that you have. It's like, oh, they're tired. Well, how dare they be tired? They're working remotely, all this stuff, you know, like, how can we go into it and keep an open mind to what that person may be going through?

So, you know, I think human beings are judging machines. We wake up in the morning and we say, like, I want this breakfast or this guy's a jerk. And we're constantly trying to make meaning out of someone else's behavior, how we've been treated, what's in front of us. And I think it's just that awareness of it. So one of the definitions of mindfulness that I've used is nonjudgmental awareness of the present moment. I think it's kind of bullshit. It's impossible to be nonjudgmental. So don't strive for it. What I like to tell people is just hold on to your judgment. Just pause and try to hold off on it and be curious as long as you possibly can. Because don't forget, as leaders, we are paid to make judgments and decisions. So we can't just be sitting in, you know, namaste all day. We've got to say we're going left or we're going right sometimes.

That makes perfect sense. Thank you for like clarifying that. I just, I know that I'm the one who tends to do it too. It's just like when you approach a situation, you just instantly, it's like, oh, judgment, judgment, judgment. But I love this, this curiosity and just pausing for a little bit longer and staying outside of that. And you're right, we are judgment machines almost like we get up judging the day right away. Yeah, it makes total sense. Nick, sorry, I didn't see you had a question there.

No, I just wanted to say I love that idea of what's your one word today. I think, Luke, we should add that to our daily stand-up meeting.

I wrote that down. Yes, I love it too.

The one add I would put to it, guys, is if someone says tired, embarrassed, they're allowed to say, and I'd rather not talk about it. So because the natural inclination is to go, hey, Luke, What happened? How are you? Like, you know, and if Luke doesn't feel like talking about it, then he, you know, he has the right to just say, you know, pass or whatever, however, whatever methodology it is.

Yeah, I think that's a great recommendation. So Doug, as we're getting towards the end of the show, I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit more about the book. Why did you decide to write it? And if somebody has made it this far into the conversation and they're kind of on the fence, they're like, I like what this guy Doug is is picking up here or putting down here, maybe I should pick up a copy of the book. Like, what's your final message to them about it?

Get off the fence and buy the book. I mean, it's, it's what, it's like 100 pages, not $100. It's way less than $100. It's, look, here's the, here's the thing. I wrote this for people that are busy, that want research that informs the content that they're consuming. They want a good story or two. Nick, I know you read it because some of your comments and highlights were like, I think, spot on. I love what you did with that. And I think it can help you reorient yourself to living a more mindful, curious life. And again, especially if you are a young leader, and I've worked with a ton of them, that there is an immense amount of pressure for them to succeed. And what I'm asking them to do is to not feel like you have to go it alone. And in my humble opinion, attacking things with intellectual humility and curiosity will make you a healthier, happier, well-balanced leader. And by the way, your team will be much happier as well.

Yeah, I think so too. And having read the book, and I've mentioned this in other places already, but listen, you're condensing Decades of your executive coaching and leadership experience into, I mean, a day of reading. It's a short book, like you said, it's compact, it's actionable. And so it's worth a lot more money than what you pay for the actual book. And it's time well spent reading it. Plus you tell great stories and it's fun. You know, it's not like it's a dense textbook. It's light and there's some humor in there and some stuff like we kicked off the podcast with. So definitely gets my stamp of approval.

All right. Well, we're coming up kind of towards the end of the podcast. Nick, before I ask my final questions, do you have anything? You're good? Okay, perfect. All right, Doug, I have 2 questions that I'd love to ask all of our guests. And the first one is, where can people go to find out a little bit more about you? And we'll link everything in the show notes.

Sure. I think the best place is drhleadership.com, Douglas Richard Hench leadership.com. Just website's got my contact information and the coach, you know, the coaches that actually I also work with and some of the workshops we do and some other things. So it's a good place.

Perfect. And we'll make sure again, we'll link that stuff in the show notes. This has been an awesome conversation. My final question is this. All right. The books, the courses, everything that you've put out disappears and you can leave the world with a single piece of advice. What would it be?

Ask yourself, how might I be wrong and what information am I missing?

Ooh, that's good.

I love that. It's tough. It's tough to think that you might be wrong, but yes, it's needed in today's world.

It's painful. It's painful. It is almost physically— I think the circuits that light up in your brain When you are wrong are similar to the physical pain circuits when you're pinched or stabbed by something. We don't like it, and particularly even more so when we are adults.

That's so good. And that, uh, man, that opened up a bunch of other questions for me, but we're short on time here, so we're gonna have to go. Doug, this has been amazing. We appreciate your time. I loved learning more about you today. And yes, if you're listening to this, go pick up a copy of Doug's book and you can transform your business and the— and your leadership style, which would be great.

Thanks, guys. Right back at you.