Finding Joy in the Game of Life with Steven Pressfield

So when I was 52 years old, and prior to that, no matter what practice I did, I could not break through to that, to the cosmic radio station. I couldn't tune the dial and I couldn't find it. Um, but I was trying, I was beating my head against the wall every day. And I think that something changed and I can't really describe it except that it, it changed on some deep level, on some level below consciousness. And, um, and knock wood, I've been able to tap into that ever since. Now, I always— I do think we all have a calling. Some of us take a longer time than ever to get to it, but once we get to it, then our life really takes on a whole different meaning. It's really about enacting that calling. We're not searching for it anymore. You, uh, efface your ego. You're entering kind of a sacred space. You're giving up your own desire to control anything, and you're essentially asking the goddess or the universe You know, help me. I'm here at your service. You know, show me the way. You know, give, give me something. I don't know if it worked for anybody else, but that attitude of humility, um, and of being at the service of something that you can't command, or, you know, you can only invoke it, you know, that's, that's to me the proper attitude.

Steven Pressfield, an absolute legend. Welcome back to the podcast. We are so excited to talk to you today. It is just—

Thanks for having me.

It's an absolute honor to be in your presence. I'd love to start with asking, do you feel like you've accomplished all that you've set out to achieve in life, or do you feel like there's still more?

Wow, what a question. You know, when my first book was published, The Legend of Bagger Vance, back in '95, I felt like at that point I thought, okay, I could die happy now. I felt like that was, you know, that was what I had. Not that I even had an idea that that was what I wanted to achieve or anything. But everything else since then has been gravy.

Do you think that If you stopped then, you would've been completely happy with where you were and you didn't have to. So why did you keep going, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at.

That's a great question. Actually, if I had stopped then, no, I would not have been happy. But I, I did feel that that sort of got the ball across the goal line at least one time. But I also felt like since I was so old at that time, I was already like 52 years old, you know, before that had happened. I felt like I was so far behind my own hopes for myself that I've been trying to catch up, you know, for the rest of the time. So, yeah, I'm happy to keep going.

During our last conversation, Stephen, you were great. Thankfully, you let us in your home. I don't know if everybody would do that, but you let us do that. And we got to hang out for the morning.

Great that you guys made the schlep all the way out there. So, I appreciate that.

We had a fun time finding it and we had the chance to record an interview in your living room. And one of the things that has stuck with me ever since that original interview is this concept and the conversation that we had around delayed gratification. You just highlighted your first goal, really, the first time you put the ball through the net was at age 55. And there are so many people that listen to this podcast in their late teens, maybe in their 20s, early 30s that want that instant gratification. They want the win tomorrow and they're not willing to sacrifice for tens of years like you did. So could we open up that can of worms one more time and talk about the importance of pursuing a dream over a long period of time?

It's, yes. I mean, Nick, it's kind of like, it's not like I set out to myself and I said, wow, let me work for 30 years and have and just fail for all that time. I'm really looking forward to that. So it was a process of, you know, it just didn't work for me, you know, I wasn't good enough. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have the skills. And I was being defeated by my own resistance, my own capital R resistance. So it did take that long for me. But I do think certainly that internet culture, you know, social media culture is really very harmful in the sense that it produces this idea that of instant success, right? That you can be like Kim Kardashian and do a sex tape and immediately you're a superstar, you know. And how does that, doesn't, you know, if you and I wanted to be brain surgeons, we wouldn't think, oh, I'll be that tomorrow. I'll be that next week. Or a concert pianist or anything like that. So why should it be any different with a writer? You know, in fact, it's harder to learn that, to learn that craft.

So do you think that if somebody tapped you on the shoulder at 20 years old and said, hey, Stephen, I appreciate your interest in writing, you will make it, but you're not going to make it for another 25 years, would you have continued writing?

Yeah. In fact, actually, somebody did tell me that. It was a little later than that. You know, but like a psychic person did tell me, you know, said, you will succeed as a writer, but only after abundant heartbreak and, you know, many years. And I was just happy to think, okay, great, maybe I'll succeed at some point. But yeah, I don't think I didn't have a choice. And I do think that that's sort of, you know, that's kind of really the answer of like, if to a young writer or young artist of any kind of why are you doing this? I think the only real answer is, out of love of the game. I mean, a lot of people do it for other reasons, for money and recognition and stuff like that. But in the end, I think the only really healthy way, or for sports or for anything else, is love of the game. You know, just, you just don't have a choice. You just have to do it. Now, nothing else makes you happy. Everything else leaves you depressed and unfulfilled.

I'm curious, for those people that feel like they're, they're searching. They haven't fully aligned with what they're supposed to do. And why do you think that is? Do you think they should give up trying to find the thing? Do you think we have a thing that we're called to do? Or like, what's your thoughts around that?

I actually wrote a book on the subject called The Artist's Journey. I don't know if you guys have read that, but I do. I certainly absolutely believe we all have a calling or more than one calling. Absolutely. I don't think we would be born if if that didn't happen. But it's, it's hard to find. And there are a lot of influences on us as we're growing up that will try to push us away from our real vocation or finding it, you know, because our parents have expectations for us, our, you know, small culture, you know, our, our ethnicity, our religion, the things we're taught in school. You know, we're all taught to be, to be, to fit in, right? And every artist sort of by definition, musician, filmmaker, whatever, the definition of them is that they don't fit in. So it is, you know, it is a kind of a longer version of this, Luke. I have in The Artist's Journey, the book, I have a kind of a theory that our life is divided into 2 parts. The first part is the hero's journey. And the second part is the artist's journey. And the hero's journey, as I define it, is really, I'm stealing from Joseph Campbell and, and, and that it's really the search for our vocation. It's when we stumble into walls, we go down dead ends, we try this, we try that, we fail. And eventually, hopefully, we come to a point where we say, okay, this is, this is it. I'm a filmmaker, I'm a singer, I'm a dancer, or I'm entrepreneur. I'm something like that, right? I'm a podcaster, whatever. And at that point, I think our life changes and we enter the artist journey. And the artist journey, then the question becomes, okay, if I'm a writer, let's say, what am I gonna write about? What's my theme? What's my gift? And the second part of that is, how do I hone my skills so that I can, so that I can do what I hope I can do? And I, and when I say skills, I don't just mean craft of writing, but the ability to defer gratification, the ability to avoid distractions, the ability to weather the emotional storms of like a 2 or 3-year period writing a book, the ability to weather success and weather failure. So that's kind of the long answer. I do think we all have a calling. Some of us take a longer time than ever to get to it. But once we get to it, Then our life really takes on a whole different meaning. It's really about enacting that calling. We're not searching for it anymore. Long answer there. That's what I think, Luke.

Stephen, switching gears a little bit, bringing up resistance with a capital R. As you were talking there, I had a visual of you sort of sitting there with a sword in hand, like with all these tools ready to slay resistance, you know, and overcome these adversities. I have a theory and I'm curious what your thoughts are here because I've read that you say resistance is sort of equal every single day. But in the world of personal development, it seems like resistance sort of starts to slow down at the end of the year, meaning people have all of this inspiration around New Year's resolutions, all these amazing things they're going to accomplish. They pick up that writing habit again for the first time in a while. And it's just as the year ends and the next year starts that they really start to get momentum. But then late January, it's like resistance is back in full throttle. The gym is empty. People put down the pen, they don't touch their keyboard. And I'm curious, have you noticed that trend with people that you coach and interact with?

Definitely. I notice it with myself too, you know? But again, that's the— this is a— the game that we're in is, is a lifetime game. You know, it's not just a January game. It's not just the first 2 weeks of January. And so that I think when we do, you know, you're a fitness guy, you know, and, and I'm sure that in your mind, Nick, your commitment to physical fitness is a lifetime commitment, right? It's not, I'm doing this for a year until I get to X level of shape. You know, this is, this is, this is who you are. This is your identity, right? And it's gonna be when you're 90 years old. So I think, you know, because you are going against resistance too. You know, it's resistance training. That's what they call it, right? So, yeah, that you can't be a January athlete and you can't be a January artist.

What's the biggest thing? What's the biggest resistance that you have in your life right now?

Ah, that's a great question.

Okay.

I'll give you a really honest answer here. It just probably doesn't apply to anybody that's listening to this thing because I'm so much older than everybody. So I just turned 80, which is like a major fucking number that would scare the shit out of anybody, you know? And so one of the things that I sort of have in my head, a bad thing in my head, is the idea that they, that kind of floats in society that at a certain age you're gonna deteriorate, you're going downhill, you've only got so many years left. And so that's the form of resistance that goes to work on me. And I, and what I have to do is sort of counterprogram myself to say, you know, I've got another X number of years left and another X number of things that I can still do and do it at full force. And I have to just little by little convince myself of that. So that, that's the big, I know this doesn't apply to everybody that's watching this, but that's my, that's my big one.

It's hard. I mean, I, yeah, I think it does apply. I mean, I, I'm not 80 yet. I'm 30 years old. I'm 30 years old, but I, I have a lot of similarities to that. Like, oh, I'm getting older and, The, I think the big part, maybe the big difference is that as being 30 years old, I feel like, oh, I haven't reached that thing that I'm supposed to do yet. So I feel like I'm falling behind. Like you kind of talked about that at the beginning. So I don't know if that's maybe, do you still feel that at 80 years old? Like you're not where you're supposed to be?

No, I don't. I do feel like I've done kind of what I, more than what I hoped I would do. But now the, the challenge for me is to keep going and not, you know, not psych myself out or allow that bad juju that floats kind of in the, in the culture to sink into my brain.

Now, I know you're working on another book, at least I, I think I shouldn't say I know. I think you're working on another book. Why do you feel like you have to keep going?

If I didn't, I would, you know, I would immediately start to deteriorate. It's sort of like, it's kind of like fitness. You know, if, if you, if you stop, you know, a month from now, you're, you've practically lost all, all of your fitness, right? You're gonna, but also this is why I was put on this earth to do this thing, you know, to follow whatever song is playing in my head. And that's why I'm here. That's what keeps me alive. That's what keeps me enthusiastic. So I, I intend to keep doing it until they take me out feet first, you know.

Well, you are 80 years old, but you are sharp as a whip. Is that a saying? Is that what people say?

Attack. Sharp as a tack.

Sharp as a tack. That makes way more sense, you know, and there's definitely no sign of any deterioration from a third-party perspective over here. And in fact, oftentimes, like Luke, who's around me more often, will probably catch me telling people that, basically telling people how impressed I am Based on our experience earlier this year at 79 at the time, now 80 years old, you being willing to go on podcasts and continue to write. And you see so many people give up at 65 or far earlier in their journey. And so, I think it's amazing what you're doing. And I think, I don't think you'll deteriorate. I mean, you're physically active, you're healthy, you're focused on these things. And I find that—

Send me some protein powder, Nick. I need to—

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, you can, one of the things that we talked about, I think off scenes a little bit last time was Joe Rogan. And the reason I'm bringing him up is because the Spotify Wrapped, are you familiar with what that is?

No.

So if you consume content on Spotify, music, podcasts, things like that, at the end of the year, they wrap up your entire year and they give you statistics. And so my number one podcast that I consumed was The Joe Rogan Experience. And the reason I'm bringing it up is because He actually talks about you more and more frequently. He brings you up now, I want to say one out of every 15 or 20 episodes, interviews that he does. And I'm curious, do people clip those as often as they come out and send them to you?

No, they don't really. That's kind of news to me. You know, I didn't really know that.

No, I will consciously send them to you from this point forward because he'll Most of the time it's about resistance, like this concept of resistance. But more often than not these days, he's talking about the idea of the muse downloading an idea and having it work through you. And so, listen, as long as you're relevant in the world of Joe Rogan and he's the number one podcaster on the planet, you'll have your youth.

Well, you know, Joe's got like 2 real pillars of his character. And one is that he's a warrior, right? He's definitely a combative guy. So he sees life as a fight. You know, he sees life as a battle. So that's one of the reasons I think he relates to the idea of resistance. And then, you know, he's also a comedian. So the idea of where do ideas come from? Where does, where does a laugh come from? So I know that he's plugged into the idea of, of the muse or some, some source, you know, that you can't really put your finger on that that things come from. So, anyway, I'm glad to know that. That's great.

I have a, maybe this is a little out of left field kind of question, but, you know, lots of people reach the level of success that you've reached. I mean, you've been on Joe Rogan, everybody. I don't know anybody that doesn't know your name and pretty much every field that I've ever worked with, like everyone knows who you are, but you maintain this kindness about you. Is that like, why, why is that? Why are you so kind and willing to share ideas and not be like untouchable like so many people are when they get to your level?

I, you know, I don't know, Luke. I don't know. I'm just trying to, you know, I tried, I'm just trying to help people when I can, you know, but at the same time, I also find I'm, one of my character flaws is setting boundaries and I can be too nice a guy and say yes too easily. But yeah, I'm just trying to help out a little bit. That's all.

Yeah, I just find it so impressive because like I said, there's people that, I mean, I know we work with a lot of successful people and they have maybe boundaries that are so tight that you can't even like reach them at all. And it, I don't know, it puts you off in a way. So the fact that you are so approachable, that might be a part of the reason why you've helped reach the level of success that you're at. I don't know. I just like spitballing here, but I just wanted to note that you are such a kind person and I just, I talk about you a lot. We, we had the privilege to spend a little bit of time at your house, like Nick said, and you come up in conversations probably daily. I mean, even Nick and I, we talk about you a lot. So I just really appreciate your kindness that you continue to show and give people. For people like me who feel like I haven't quite figured out that thing that I'm supposed to do.

Uh-huh.

It, it means a lot. Like, it helps me a lot get through some days. Like, when I think about resistance, like, you know, Steven Pressfield, he, he was 40 years old and still going at this. Like, I've still got time, and that just makes me feel really good.

You do have time, believe me. Lots of time.

I love it. All right, so let's now go to the book. So the new book, The Daily Pressfield, is officially out there for people to purchase. And this was inspired from Ryan Holiday's The Daily Stoic. Is that right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. He, you know, we were talking one day and he said that, that The Daily Stoic was like his second most popular book. And he said to me, you know, you have so much content, Steve, you should put one of these together yourself, you know? And, and, and then I thought like, for whatever reason, Nick, people have been asking me over the last few years, like, how do you write a book? You know, I'd love to write a book, but I don't know where to begin. I don't know anything about it. And I think to myself, I thought to myself, My, I've got kind of my sort of, forgive the word wisdom scattered through a bunch of books, but it's not in any one particular place where somebody could kind of put it next to their laptop and go for it. And I thought that the 365-day, you know, calendar concept is a great idea to do that, to sort of start at day one of a, for a long-term project and sort of be a mentor to to somebody that they could follow it all the way through a year. And, you know, the middle part of the book is about second act horrors, right? And the shit that hits the fan every time when you're in the middle of a project. And the end of the book is really about kind of what does it all mean? You know, what if you, what if you never succeed? What is that kind of thing? So anyway, that was, that was the impetus behind the book.

Yeah, I've been, I've been reading it on a daily basis. And I think one of the reasons that this book will be so successful is that It doesn't take a lot of energy to overcome the resistance to read one page, but it does take a lot of resistance to overcome reading an entire book. And so as I shared with you before we press record, every day on the Book Thinkers Huddle, I will read one of these days to some, you know, to the entire team and then we'll talk about it for a couple of minutes. So to give everybody a little bit of a preview that's listening today, I will read day 1, which I consistently flip back to because I find it so powerful. So, here we go. And sorry if you hate having people read your books back to you.

No, I'm very— I'm flattered. Please go for it.

All right, I'll go for it. Day 1, Resistance Wakes Up with Me. People ask me sometimes, when in your day do you first experience resistance? My answer, the instant I open my eyes, maybe sooner. Resistance is waiting for me. It doesn't give me even 0.0001 second of slack. And that's Black Irish Jab number 22, A Day in the Life. And then you go on to say, resistance is a force of nature. I mean, literally, like gravity or the transit of the stars, resistance operates objectively. We can't evade it and we can't fake it out. The instant we surface to consciousness, it's there. I've been in the writing biz for almost 50 years, and I can tell you resistance never goes away. It never diminishes. The struggle for me is as difficult today as it was in 1974. Let's make this then our hardball, hardcore assumption from day one. We will have to fight resistance every day, all year long, from the moment we open our eyes. So that's the end of the passage for anybody that's just listening to the audio. So here's my follow-up thought. I've realized over the last couple of years that failure is a magnificent thing in business and entrepreneurship. And if you expect failure as part of the process, Then it doesn't shock you when it happens. And so I think the same thing happens with resistance. When you understand that it's part of the process and you accept that it will be there every single day, it's not a surprise. And that gives you the ability to process from a, almost like a point of logic and overcome it rather than be emotionally taken back every time.

That, that's great, Nick. That's very well put. You know, I, I wouldn't have put it that way myself, and I think it's better than what I would've said.

I would argue that. But anyway, I just wanted to give you that reflection and I'll kick it back over to Luke for the next question.

You talk a lot about the muses and I know we've had conversations about that before. At least you have, you've had them with Nick and you have this concept of tuning into the cosmic radio. So I'm curious, do you have any practices that you do on a daily basis to tune into that? Or is it something that you just feel like you tapped into one day and you've been tapped into it ever since? Like, what is your process around that?

Ah, that's a great question. I think that something changed for me, like when I wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance, when that idea came to me. So when I was 52 years old, and prior to that, no matter what practice I did, I could not break through to that, to the cosmic radio station. I couldn't tune the dial and I couldn't find it. But I was trying. I was beating my head against the wall every day. And I think that something changed and I can't really describe it except that it changed on some deep level, on some level below consciousness. And knock wood, I've been able to tap into that ever since. Now, I always start each working day. I know you know this, Luke. I say a prayer to the muse, you know, that a friend of mine once gave me this official sort of prayer. So that's, that is a, a, um, a practice, I guess, that, that, uh, of sort of like if you're entering the dojo to study martial arts or, you know, or meditation, you know, you put your hands together and you bow to the, to the sensei and, you know, you, you, um, you, uh, efface your ego. You're entering kind of a sacred space. you're giving up your own desire to control anything. And you're essentially asking the goddess or the universe, you know, help me. I'm here at your service. You know, show me the way, you know, give, give me something. And, you know, at least since, you know, when I was 52 years old, whenever that was a long time ago, it, it has worked. So I don't know if it worked for anybody else, but that attitude of humility And of being at the service of something that you can't command or, you know, you can only invoke it. You know, that's, that's to me the proper attitude. Yeah.

Did something snap at the age of 52 that you were like, I just can't do this anymore? Did you reach a wit's end point? Like, what was the difference between 52-year-old you and 40-year-old you?

I think it was really when the idea for that book, The Legend of Agar Vance, kind of just— why does an idea come into your head, you know? But it came in and it totally seized me. So much so that I basically had a screenwriting career that I basically gave up. And so why does that idea come? I don't know, you know, the goddess finally figures this guy suffered enough. Let me give him something, you know? So yeah, that was it. That's, that's sort of what, what the change was. And like I say, it was really out of my control. It just, just happened.

I have this visual of somebody, you know, chopping away at a stone like a mason, a mason-type person or sculptor. And it's like, you know, on the 50th strike, part of the rock falls away, but it wasn't that strike, right? It was the 49 before it. And so it sounds to me like, yeah, you suffered enough, the portal opened, and now you've been able to keep the portal open by consistently saying that prayer every single day. And there are quite a few people that achieve some level of success and they have their moment, that first soccer ball goes into the net or whatever, and then they fail to keep up with the practice, I would imagine. And that's why it slips away. And that does happen to a lot of people.

Yeah.

I mean, we're motivated a lot of times when we're younger and have energy, and then boom, it goes away as we age.

So.

I think it's pretty cool that you've been able to keep the portal open.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I guess a lot of times, Nick, I think sometimes people are in it for ego reasons, right? I want a success. I want to make the money. I wanna have a hit. And the goddess doesn't like that, you know? And I think she'll turn off the spigot. But if you're in it for love of the game and to kind of serve whatever she wants to give you, Then maybe, knock wood, she'll hang around and keep giving it to you. Yeah.

Was your game writing, was that the thing that you loved? I mean, I know you, you kind of tried to make a career out of it several times, but was that the thing that you loved?

Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah. And still is.

When did you, when did you find that out? Were you in your early 20s when you found that out? Was it later? Like, when did that come to you? that you wanted to write for a living?

I kind of backed into it in a really dumb way. I sort of had, I was working, I'll try to make this short story. I was working in advertising in New York as like a junior copywriter. And I had a boss named Ed Hannibal who wrote a novel and it was a hit overnight. He became like, you know, a success overnight. And I said to myself, well, shit, why don't I do that? It looks pretty easy to me. So, but of course, it absolutely wasn't easy and like took another 30 years for it, for it to, you know, to happen. But I sort of, I sort of stumbled onto the path for a bad reason, for a dumb reason, thinking it was easy. And once, you know, when the bottom fell out, I felt like the only way I can get out of this paper bag is to write my way out of it. So that, that was kind of how it, how it happened. But along the way, I did become consumed by it and in a good way.

I love that. Do you feel like at 80 years old, do you have any regrets that you look back on your life and you're like, oh, I really regret that?

No, I don't. You know, sometimes people might ask me if you could have taken a shortcut, if this could have happened sooner, you know, but that wasn't in the cards for me. You know, I think I was I was callow enough and shallow enough and dumb enough that I needed, you know, to have my butt kicked, you know, for a long period of time before I was sort of ready to operate in the proper spirit. So I needed all that. I don't regret any of it.

I think it's so cool that you say no. Because in Rise of the Reader, right off the bat, I start with some deathbed visualizations and I start with some concepts that get people to think about their life potential because so many people are asleep at the wheel and they do get kicked in the butt, but they don't try again the next day. And so, when I hear you say at 55, you scored a goal and life is good, like you did more than you thought you were going to, and the last 25 years or so have just been bonus, like gravy. I think that's so cool because you are supposed to be able to achieve that level of success in life. That's why we fight resistance. And every time we hear stories of people who say, no, you know what, I could have done more, it's like some people actually achieve it. And so, it's cool to hear you say that and that you don't really have any regrets. So, I'll quit rambling. Here's my last question as we wrap up. What book have you gifted the most over the last couple of years? And you can't count any of yours. So, outside of any books written by Steven Pressfield. What books have you gifted the most?

Okay. There's, there's 2 books and not everybody likes these books. And they're both novels. One is The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway, which I, I think is, you know, just an amazing book even though it's anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-gay, and, you know, full of all of the prejudices that people had in 1926. And the other's a book, I, I'm sure you know this, Nick, Although a lot of people might not. The Moviegoer by Walker Percy. Are you familiar with that book?

No.

Put this on your list as a reader. The Moviegoer won the National Book Award for fiction in 1962. And it's Walker Percy. Do you know who Walker Percy was? He's another guy, really fascinating character to— he was The short version was he became a doctor. And as soon as he became a doctor, he's from the South, from New Orleans, he contracted tuberculosis and he had to kind of go into a sanitarium. And he was basically bedridden for 2 or 3 years. And in that time, he started writing articles for these Catholic, Roman Catholic journals and very deep, deep stuff. You know, he really started thinking on a really deep level. And he came out of that and he said, I'm not gonna practice medicine. I'm gonna be a writer. And he became a wonderful, wonderful writer. So that's, that's another one, The Moviegoer by Walker Percy.

All right. They've both been added to my Amazon cart. Thank you.

Okay. If you don't like it, I'll, I'll buy, I'll buy the book back from you.

There's probably no chance of that. No chance of that. All right. Well, I have 2 more questions. The first is, where can people go to find your newest book, The Daily Press Field? I'm sure Amazon will do stuff, links in the show notes and everything, but where Where can we send people?

Oh, okay. Thanks for that. My website, which is just my name, www.stephenpressfield.com, has got a splash page that takes you to the thing. But the interesting thing about this is that we're self-publishing this, my girlfriend and partner Diana and I. And our concept is that we're not just selling the book. I mean, what we have is 2 other things, 2 other options. One is a signed book that comes in a really nice box. And one is a special gift edition that we sent to you guys. And it's a, it's a great gift for somebody. It's like, uh, our kind of theory is publishing above and beyond, where we, we can give something that you can't get at Amazon or you couldn't get at Barnes& Noble. So anyway, that's just my website will take you to where, and you can get it at Amazon too, but it doesn't have all the The bells and whistles and the signature with it.

Well, perfect. We'll be sure to send people there.

All right.

This is the final question. You pass away and all the things that you put out, the books, courses, anything that you've put out, content that you've put out disappears, but you can leave the world with a single piece of advice. What would that be?

Easy.

Okay.

Here's a really practical piece of advice. Pay attention to your dreams. And I mean the dreams that you have at night, not the dreams like, oh, I dream I'm gonna be a— play center field for the New York Yankees. And the reason I say that is that I'm definitely a believer that life exists on 2 levels and it's on the material level and then it's on the higher level, the soul level, the level of the Jungian self, And the way the self communicates to us primarily in my mind is through dreams. And dreams have been my mentor throughout the, you know, reassuring me when I was in deep self-doubt and explaining things to me, teaching things to me. So I would say dreams, when you can understand them, never steer you wrong. It's the— and I've— and in other people's lives, when I hear stories of their dreams that have affected them, it only reinforces that for me. I hear, oh wow, you know, a certain dream just puts somebody right on the course. So I'd say that one thing, pay attention to your dreams. I'd recommend a book by Robert Johnson called Inner Work. Robert Johnson is a Jungian psychotherapist. And he has a— it's a short book, kind of like The War of Art, about the interpretation of dreams. And I highly recommend that too.

Wow. Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah.

It's—

do you do dream interpretations? Because I had a crazy dream last night.

Well, if you read Robert Johnson's book, he really gives you some techniques to, to analyze things like that, that really work.

Yeah, I'm super excited. I've actually heard you talk about that on other podcasts, and recently I have very vivid dreams. So recently I've actually been writing them all out because of you. So I'm excited.

That's great.

Yeah. And I also got that book too, which I'm going to start soon. So, um, oh, great.

Yes, great.

I'm very excited about it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Stephen, for your time. This has been awesome. You're an amazing person. I always love being in your presence. So we appreciate you coming on our podcast today.

Well, thanks, Luke. It's great to see you again. Thank you, Nick. And for the whole, you know, Book Thinkers staff and your team there, you know, God bless you for what you're doing. Keep up, keep up the great work and keep evolving the way you're evolving. Remember, you got a lot of years ahead of you. Trust me.