Former FBI Agent Efren Delgado on Truth, Safety, and Purpose.

So if you think about it, our, our lifelong goals, our North Stars, our purpose is to reach that summit of the mountain, which takes effort. It's not the path of least resistance, which you comment a lot. A worthwhile life is not the path of least resistance. It takes effort. So you're climbing, but when you fall off that mountain and you're in that valley, cuz inevitably you'll slip, the fruit is there. And those are fruits of wisdom of what happened.

Yeah.

You could be in the valley and say, screw the world, everybody's against me, and just get in the fetal position and give up. But you don't win that way. You're never gonna accomplish your goal that way. That's actually, ironically, an opportunity, 'cause you've been humbled, and humility is the only path to wisdom. So pick up all that fruits of wisdom, stuff your pockets, nourish yourself, resume your climb.

Afrin, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you feeling today?

Great. It's good to be here. It's beautiful in person.

Yeah, thank you so much. You came out to the event in Columbus, let's see, 2 months ago, and that was our first opportunity to meet, and you got involved in the world of Book Thinkers, and now we're here talking about The Opposite Is True.

Yep, it's good to be here. It's been a long time coming.

Yeah, so let's kick off here. You are a young guy and you sort of get punched in the back and you fall down and you look at a couple of bullies and you start to realize not everybody, even though they could be doing nice things to other people, not everybody chooses that pathway.

Right.

So why'd you decide to kick off the book with that story?

Well, it was the first time in my life. I was about just turned 7 years old, so I was a child. And kids have this innocent, authentic thought process, you know, they don't really, uh, filter their words or their thoughts, which is great. Like adults, you know, are the opposite. But when I was bullied a little bit by these 2 people, I remember thinking genuinely, why would somebody be mean when they could simply be nice? And if you think about that question, it's really the fundamentals of psychology. Why do people do what they do? But even deeper, it's the fundamentals of criminology. Why do bad people do what they do? So that seed was planted even though I didn't know what psychology was, criminology was. I was just genuinely interested. So I didn't have any answers then, but the answers came throughout my childhood, adulthood, and then got really honed in when I was in the FBI, now in the private sector protecting people.

So sort of bridge this gap for me. You're 7 years old, you start to wonder why do people do the things that they do, why do bad people do the things that they do. How do you go from being How did you go from being bullied to wanting to work in criminology at a professional level?

Well, well, that I'd kind of have to convey the story. So when I was one year younger than all the other kids, the following year I was held back. And so that adversity was just like really hitting me from every angle. The parents, my parents and the teachers were saying it's for the better, which I interpreted as I'm stupid. So as a little kid, that's really harsh.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you're starting to think negatively about yourself. I'm a weakling. I'm not deserving of success or happiness. You start to have these thoughts, maybe not articulated that way, but that's, that's the feeling. But when I went to a different school, repeated the 2nd grade, now I'm with kids my own age. I suddenly, just my own personality, made some kids laugh one day in class. Before I knew it, I was one of the popular kids. And I just made that vow to use that power without thinking it this analytical way, but use that power to protect people who can't protect themselves.

Hmm.

So that interest was— I was always sensitive to that interest where I just wanted to protect people who maybe felt how I felt when I was being bullied. So that naturally generalized into a career in law enforcement and protecting people. And that's not about the agencies. I didn't care if I joined a particular police department or a particular federal agency. I just thought at the time the FBI was the best, so I pursued that. But it wasn't about the FBI. It never has been. It's about protecting people in the best way I can. And so when I left the FBI, I naturally went into executive protection, which is a fancy word for bodyguard. So I do that for private clients, for companies, and for actual events. But the theme is always the same, protect people, particularly who can't protect themselves. And with my book, I'm trying to encourage the reader who I'm assuming most of my reader, my readership is the good guy. So that's kind of what that dove symbolizes. You know, somebody who's not perfect, but rising above and seeking out your purpose. The olive branch is kind of the symbol of everybody has a life purpose and it may change, but you know what it is. It's your North Star. And the bad guys are trying to pull you down. You just have to rise above it. I could go on, but we don't have to go too deep on that right now.

Well, I love the word rise, obviously, Rise of the Reader, right?

Yep.

The reason that I chose that word again is that upward momentum. You're, you're enlightening yourself, you're lifting up to your potential. And so I definitely resonate. So you said something really interesting. You went from 2nd grade being bullied to being held back, becoming popular, and wanting to protect kids that might potentially be bullied.

Yeah.

And so it sounds to me like your purpose came from your pain. That's something that Evan Carmichael talks about in his book Built to Serve. Would you agree that your purpose has come directly from your pain?

Yeah, I actually think everybody's purpose comes from pain. So this is not in the book. I thought of this quote after writing the book, but I often say adversity is the catalyst to purpose. And I'll even take that further and say adversity is the catalyst to purpose and Action and success. Because really what drives us, our North Star, is emotional. It comes from an emotional place. And that emotion is passion. Emotion is our human energy, which is extremely powerful. So another metaphor I'll give people is like the turret on the top of a tank.

Mm-hmm.

That blast of that tank gun is so powerful. It's like emotion. But if it's pointed in the wrong direction, You could really cause a lot of damage to society and to yourself, and sometimes the reverse order—to yourself and then to society. So one prerequisite to any decision that's an emotion-fueled decision is assessing. So I say assess, adapt, overcome. The thinking part—the book thinker's part—is necessary for you to fuel your loading your gun, and before you execute with a powerful emotional. This emotional decision, you have to make sure it's pointed in the right way.

Yeah. I love that metaphor. I heard you mention that on the Comfort, Peace, and Freedom podcast, which Ken Rusk hosts. And I listened to your interview doing a little bit of prep for this conversation. And I really resonate with that metaphor. So let me ask you a question. This is something that I used to struggle with a lot. I'm interested in your take here. When I was a little bit younger, let's say 10 years ago, and maybe the 5 years before that, I was very emotionally reactive. And so the cannon arm Right. It was just wildly pointed in every direction. An input would come into my brain and I would react, a lot of times negatively.

Yeah.

And so, I'm curious, how can somebody listening or watching today improve their ability to aim, become more aware, increase the time between an input to their brain and their reaction so that they can tap into being more logical?

That's a great question because it applies to absolutely everybody. What you went through, I've gone through, and I guarantee everybody in your audience has gone through.

Yeah.

We are emotional beings. Being human means you're emotional. But one ingredient, a whole section in my book points out what I call oil and water. Emotion and logic never mix. They may blend, but they don't mix. And to just kind of bring it home to my reader and your audience, imagine yourself in your last, or not the last one, but any emotionally charged argument you've had with a significant other, a colleague, or a loved one, whatever. If it's emotionally charged, the clouds are heavy, it's raining, there's no room for logic. Both sides are just emoting.

Mm-hmm.

You have to pause, breathe, accept some humility, which is really difficult to do, and then wait for the clouds to kind of clear, the sun to come out, and suddenly you see things clearly because you're not emoting anymore.

Mm-hmm.

And at that moment, clarity sets in. So I'd suggest for everybody— well, When clarity sets in, then you realize, okay, maybe I was being an ass. Maybe they have a point. Suddenly you start to see things more objectively because you're not drowning in emotion. And you might be in the scenario where you're being calm, you're seeing things clearly, and your partner, the person you're having this issue with, is still emoting. You still have to wait. You have to wait for them to see things clearly. Otherwise, you're just kind of running on a treadmill and going nowhere. So the main goal is realize emotion and logic don't mix. When you're in this chaotic storm, pause, breathe, allow your emotions to kind of dissipate and the clarity to set in so that you could just kind of recognize the context and then you could execute with thinking and making a decision.

Follow-up question. Let's say that you have the awareness to slow things down and operate from a place of logic, but the person you're communicating with is still emoting. In a very heavy way. Do you have any tips, strategies, tactics to give the audience or to give me, because this happens from time to time, a way to sort of level somebody else out so that they can start to operate from a place of logic instead?

I do, and before I continue, I have the same issue. We're all human, we all have the same issues, so just realize that. There's, I guess, strength and encouragement just knowing that we're all going through the same stuff.

Yes.

Even people who know better, you know, we all go through the same things because we're human. But if you— I give the metaphor of when I was a kid, I would run on the beaches of Corpus Christi, Texas, where I grew up, and I'd sometimes get a tar stain on my foot just because oil leaks, or natural oil sometimes comes out of the ocean and ends up as tar on the ground. You can't take that off with plain water. You need another oil base to Mm. So baby oil, gasoline, which was my dad's choice, a stinky way to do it. I don't recommend that. But the point is you need something with the same density to remove that oil. So when your partner or the person you're having this emotionally charged argument with is still emoting, the only way to penetrate that is with an equally emotional response or stimulus. You can't be logical with somebody who's emotional because it's just going to bounce off. You have to use the tool of an emotional compliment, an emotional recognition, an emotional I'm here listening to you for them to kind of okay the emotion penetrated because it was a positive emotion but it's still emotion and now I could calm myself down and start to see things clearly. Once you recognize that they suddenly Their own clouds are dissipating and clarity is kind of bringing in that. Then you could start using logic. Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, it totally does. I'm curious, as a parent now, yeah, um, who has a young child who might be going through some similar things in the upcoming years that you went through, right? Kind of kicking off today's podcast. Do you communicate these sort of subjects?

I do. Colt, my little one's 4 years old. So I communicate it in a way he could understand. And one thing we've done for the last 2, 3 years is when he gets riled up emotionally like kids tend to do, we just tell him, breathe. Just slowly breathe. And he does that. And sometimes he does it without me telling him because he's used to that.

Mm-hmm.

And I love seeing him do that because that's going to be a habit for him as an adult. Unconsciously, probably, but he's gonna know when I get riled up, just breathe in your nose, out your mouth. That's how he does it. And he kind of calms himself down. We sometimes have to remind him, of course. So I talked to him. We recently went through a potential bullying thing at school where we didn't know exactly what took place, but he came back and his white polo shirt was all dirty. He's got uniforms at school. And it's normally not that dirty. And he complained about his left ear hurting. So I think there was something that happened at school, but as a 4-year-old, it's pretty innocent. But these are opportunities, like adversities, catalysts to purpose, action, and success. Humility is the, the opportunity to recognize some points of wisdom and convey that to him. So we've gone out of our way to just kind of explain, you don't hit kids, but if somebody pushes you, you could defend yourself.

Yeah.

Even if the words don't really resonate, the next episode something like that happens, he'll remember it from the past and it'll continue. You just keep talking to them and I think it will eventually resonate.

What's interesting to me, uh, when I think about this book and I think about some of the things that we're talking about right now is that these subjects are relevant to everyone. I mean, we're talking about parenting. We're also talking about how to handle your own emotional turbulence. We're talking about, you You know, law enforcement and what they might go through. So it's interesting when you think about your target reader for this book, when you originally decided to write it, who is the target reader?

I think most people prefer comfort over truth. This is a difficult reality, but this is something I believe. So I don't think most people are my reader, but I do think your audience is my reader because people who appreciate the wisdom in books, You know, all the people, all these authors are really laying it all, their life lessons, out on the line. And, and they're summing up a whole lifetime into a book. So it's pretty much the greatest hits of their lives or the epiphanies they've come up with. So I think these people and your audience really appreciate truth in spite of comfort.

Mm-hmm.

So even though the majority of people don't embrace truth and they prefer to be comfortable, my reader wants to live a life that's beyond mediocrity. They remember things you mentioned in your book. Memento mori. Remember your death. We are mortal. We will die. So you might as well live a full life. And carpe diem. Seize the day. I'm a big fan of the Dead Poets Society movie and the book. They're both great. It's a small book, but it's a great one. So yeah, living for today, really knowing we're going to die one day, so you might as well go for it. So the only way to really make something out of your life is to embrace these realities, put it into your workspace, and manage those things.

Yeah, yeah, I agree 1,000%. And, uh, tell us one more time a little bit more about the COVID because this is really interesting. And I think, you know, I just finished a book and there are some things maybe I wish I could do a little bit differently with my cover, but yours really stands out and I'm— I have a matching tattoo with the COVID which we were talking about before we pressed record.

Right. Just for the record, you didn't get the tattoo because of my great book. That would have been a big compliment. But so yeah, Matthew 10:16 is, be innocent as doves but wise as serpents. That's kind of where I got the idea, and I sketched it on a napkin. But the idea sounds contradictory, and one of the main concepts of my book is most truths are counterintuitive or paradoxical. Be innocent as a dove, but wise as a serpent. So you, the audience, the reader, is the dove. You have your purpose, like I said before, with the olive branch. But fruit grows in valleys and not on mountaintops. Greg Laurie said that. That's not mine, but I use it all the time. So if you think about it, our lifelong goals, our North Stars, our purpose is to reach that summit of the mountain. Which takes effort. It's not the path of least resistance, which you comment a lot. A worthwhile life is not the path of least resistance. It takes effort. So you're climbing. But when you fall off that mountain and you're in that valley, because inevitably you'll slip, the fruit is there. And those are fruits of wisdom of what happened. You could be in the valley and say, screw the world, everybody's against me, and just get in the fetal position and give up. But you don't win that way. You're never gonna accomplish your goal that way. That's actually ironically an opportunity because you've been humbled, and humility is the only path to wisdom. So pick up all that fruits of wisdom, stuff your pockets, nourish yourself, resume your climb. And that's kind of what the olives on this olive branch represent— the fruits of wisdom that you carry it with you. And what's ironic here is even though you're rising above it again, that's why it's a circle. You fall and you come back up. But even though you're back up climbing, the bad guys are still intertwined around your purpose. They're always going to be around you. And bad guys have a bad habit that works for them of disguising themselves as the good guys. So that's why they're intertwined there. They're sneaky. They're in the shadows. Sometimes they're family. Sometimes they're coworkers. Sometimes they feign to be your best friend. But that's where your instinct comes in. The assess part of assess, adapt, and overcome really comes in. And once you're dealing in that raw reality, you could really recognize who your wolf pack truly is and discard, or at least put limitations on, the people who are trying to bring you down.

Would you say that this book was written from a defensive perspective?

I think it's more of an offensive perspective.

Okay.

Because if you recognize these Negative Nancys, is what I call them, they're not all criminals or Hitlers or tyrants or terrorists. Sometimes they're just not so nice neighbors. Sometimes they're not so nice family members at the Christmas dinner who's just kind of poking you. They're coming from a place of weakness. So if you could anticipate and see those red flags from afar, you could avoid it, or at least take perspective into it. Don't take things as personally and, and really just kind of continue to pursue your North Star because it's not worth having people pull you down. They want to pull you down because they're not strong enough. To pursue their goals, they're weak. So I'm going to get into another deep metaphor that I compare the negative Nancys to: a Chihuahua barking at the doorbell, which you heard me say on Ken's show. But Chihuahuas bark at the doorbell not because they're brave and strong, but because they're scared. So they're barking, trying to make a big, big presentation. They're worried about what's on the other side, and those people are envious of the brave people who aren't so worried. They're just— they know they'll be humbled. They know life is difficult, but they have the courage to risk, to invest, to pursue their dreams. And the bad guys don't, so they're jealous. So that's another reason they're pulling people or trying to pull people down. Why should they do it and I can't? Well, because they're taking a risk.

Mm-hmm.

So there's envy there. So if you recognize the people who are envious and that's kind of why they're attacking, then you could kind of easily not take it personally and dissipate it, put up boundaries, and pursue, you know, your goals on your own.

Okay, so former FBI special agent— we'll probably use that in the thumbnail for the YouTube, and we'll probably throw it in the actual podcast title because I think a lot of people want to know what is it like to be an FBI agent. So let's start there, and then I have some interesting follow-ups.

Okay, cool. Yeah, I really enjoyed my time in the FBI. It's, uh, It's an opportunity to use an organization with great resources to help people. And that was one of my, as I said in the beginning, one of my main goals in life is just to help people, help victims who can't help themselves. And so victims and witnesses are often intimidated in criminal proceedings outside the courtroom. I've had experience with all kinds of things that way, where it's an opportunity for me to defend them, encourage them. and really just try to help the good guys. So I enjoyed my time there. I spent half the time doing national security in the first half of my career in Washington, D.C. So that's kind of the defense of the whole intelligence community. The FBI protects its secrets, its infrastructure, the interests of the United States. And the CIA would be like the offense. They're seeking out secrets, ways to benefit the United States from other countries. So We're protecting our goal. They're trying to score goals. So that's the national security side. On the criminal side, I worked human trafficking, hate crimes, and color of law, which are like bad cops. And for the record, most cops are really good people. So I probably exonerated about 98% of the complaints because there was no basis for them after doing some preliminary investigation— investigative work. But when they were guilty, they were very guilty.

Mm-hmm.

We looked for a systemic pattern of criminal behavior, and usually even the good cops would know who they were. They just didn't want to work with them. But yeah, it was intense, but I had some great colleagues. I'm still friends with some of them to this day, even though I left in 2015. And now in the private sector, I'm still able to protect people, but I don't have so much red tape that I have to deal with. And I'm kind of working for myself. I've got various companies that hire me, so the client becomes my boss essentially, because I want to make sure they're safe and happy. But in a nutshell, it's just another way of protecting people. So national security, criminal division, and then bodyguarding in the private sector is like a trifecta of me protecting people.

Mm-hmm.

And a 4th way where I could do that now that I'm kind of evolving into is through my writing. The goal is the same. The mission is the same. It's my natural calling— protect people in spite of my weaknesses, in spite of my insecurities, in spite of my mortality and failures. My goal remains the same. So that's why I encourage your reader, despite your flaws, your weaknesses, your failures, don't let people pull you down. Just keep pursuing what you're meant to be pursuing. It's probably noble.

And how do you plan to do this? Because I heard on Ken's podcast, you were talking about how you wish you could do this full-time. You're not currently there yet, but what are some ways that maybe people in the audience can engage with you that might help support that?

Well, my, my website's probably the best way to contact me. There's a way to contact me on efrendelgado.com. It's efrendelgado.com, but it talks about my background. It talks about the book. And I've got a contact Efrain page in the back. So I could, I could speak to your groups. I could speak to book clubs. I could speak for different companies on risk, overcoming adversity, overcoming fears, those types of topics that could help their audiences or the individuals. And that way I could pursue my, my goal, my mission of helping people in different ways.

There's a subject that I've become very interested in over the last couple of weeks in particular, which is personal protection, safety. Yeah. So is that something that you think you might spend some time coaching people on in the future?

Yeah, absolutely. It's a reality we all have to deal with. And like I was comparing the bad guy to chihuahuas barking at the doorbell, just know they're looking for weak targets. So like I might have mentioned it on Ken's show, but I give the analogy of like a classic bad guy is a pedophile. You know there's no excuse for being a pedophile. But pedophiles don't look for the popular kid surrounded by friends playing, playing, laughing, very confident, strong. They're looking for the kid who's isolated, kicking rocks, looking down. So they look for easy targets, and a fraudster from Nigeria or wherever who's trying to extract or defraud somebody out of their money or embezzle money from a company, they're not pursuing these Wall Street gurus who know everything about money, who are on top of it. They're pursuing people, people who are potentially suffering from dementia and stealing their life savings. They're looking for vulnerable, easy targets.

Mm-hmm.

Because they are not strong. They are not— they don't want a challenge. They are the most fearful people, even though they're dangerous, Because they do not want to expose their weaknesses. So they're really loud, they pursue easy targets, and just trying to put a little Band-Aid over a gushing wound of their own weaknesses. So just that knowledge by itself should encourage everybody to— look, you can protect yourself if you're being attacked. Just standing up to somebody, it will shock them because they're not used to it.

Bullying works.

So when you suddenly punch the bully in the nose, is the figurative idea that everybody has when you finally stand up to yourself, it really does work because they're not used to it.

What are some ways that the average person listening or watching today can present as somebody who wouldn't want to be targeted?

I think standing tall, literally and figuratively, being confident, making eye contact, Just showing yourself as not a tiny little mouse. Project strength without being— without exaggerating it. And another part that I think is underrated is trusting your instinct. There's this story that I mentioned on Ken's podcast that I still haven't nailed down exactly who it was, but there was this lady on a date with somebody.

Yeah.

And she was having this really bad feeling about the person who she's on a date with. And by the way, this is an old story I've heard. I've heard many of my female friends have similar circumstances where they have a funny feeling on this date, so they just walk out of the date. They make a polite excuse that they used to rush home and they don't look back. That's good. You don't have to worry about offending people when your safety is concerned. So in this story, the lady had a really bad feeling. She left. She never went back. Later, she saw on the news— I think it was just a few days later— the person she was on a date with was Ted Bundy, serial killer. So she could have easily have been his victim. But that's not, you know, it's not uncommon when you trust your gut. You could avoid dangers. Like, bring it back to our, you know, down-to-earth level. If you're gonna get into business with somebody and you have a funny feeling with them, don't sign that contract. Trust your instinct.

Mm-hmm.

The world will tell you don't prejudge people. Don't be judgmental. That's not being judgmental. It's not being rude. It's using the assessment part of assess, adapt, and overcome. It's the thinking part. And instincts come from a place of logic and thinking. So trust your instincts.

They do. Uh, the subject of intuition, gut feeling is something that I've also been thinking about. I want to go back to personal protection in just a moment, but I'll highlight this for a second. We just worked with Matt Higgins, author of Burn the Boats, and his entire book is basically about how do you take action in face of uncertainty? And it's by relying more on— it's by cultivating more awareness and relying on your intuition and your gut feelings a little bit more than you might be comfortable with. And there are some strategies for cultivating more of that. And, uh, one of the guys on our team, Tyler, one of his favorite books is Power Versus Force. And again, it's all about gut feeling, intuition, universal sort of like karma. But what's interesting about Matt's take is he He's talking about data points. So your subconscious, your subconscious self is receiving all of these data points, these clues that come from all different places that we don't consciously recognize.

Right.

And that might lead to you getting up in the middle of a date and leaving. So are there any things that people can do when they walk into a bar, a restaurant, into a date, into a business situation to actually consciously cultivate more awareness?

Yeah, in, in the threat assessment, private protection world, I often say just figure out what the norm is. Like when you walk into a restaurant or you go to a concert or you're out in public, there's a certain norm that's established. A good example is you're at, um, some kind of a crowd like a concert. Everybody's dressed a certain way. There's— they're singing along with the music. They're smiling. Whatever the norm is, Then suddenly you look for the outliers. What's the anomaly? And those anomalies should not be ignored. It could be 100% innocent. Most of the time they are, but those are the things to hone in on, home in on. You see Taylor Swift concert, everybody's dressed a certain way singing, but then you see this guy dressed in full camouflage with a scowl on his face. You should pay attention to that person.

Mm-hmm.

Like, why are they there? Why are they acting differently? And sometimes they're less dramatic. You're on a first date, you're in a restaurant, everybody's having a good time, you're hearing the tinking of the glasses and the silverware, but your date has this serious, weird look on his face. So you're right to question that, like, where is that coming from? And sometimes you can't put your, your foot on or your finger on what the, the anomaly is, but your instincts are talking to you. So they're right. Subconsciously, you're recognizing things. So when you have that feeling, trust it, and it suddenly becomes into the conscious, and address it. Don't ignore it.

Yeah, I think simply by reading your book, listening to you speak, uh, following your accounts on social media, it's, it's an input to your system that says, hey, pay attention to this stuff a little bit more. So, right, I think that's important.

Absolutely. Yeah, know your surroundings.

Yeah, so back to the personal protection thing. Give a little bit of context because context is important, as I've heard you say, right?

Right.

A few weeks ago, I listened to an episode of The Joe Rogan Experience where Tim Kennedy was being interviewed. Tim Kennedy, former UFC fighter, but also spent 10 years, I think, as a Green Beret in the U.S. Army. And he spent time on the border, he spent time overseas on behalf of the U.S., and he was just talking about how unsafe the average person is today and about how we've been lulled to sleep and everybody's unaware of the potential threats that we're currently facing. So this is not a subject that we've talked about on the Book Thinkers Podcast before, but it's something I'm interested in.

Yep.

So he said, think about 200 years ago, the average adult male could protect their family. They were physically fit, not fat. They probably owned a gun and knew how to use it. And they carried themselves with the confidence to be perceived as somebody you wouldn't want to mess with. But today, the average adult male is fat, they don't own a firearm, and if they do, they don't know how to use it. And they don't come off as somebody who is confident or competent to defend their family. And so, as we talked about before, I just got my license to carry a few months ago, just purchased my first firearm.

Yep.

And I plan on carrying it on day— on a daily basis. when I'm in Massachusetts, because I don't want to be caught in a situation where I can't defend myself.

Right.

And it sounds like from Tim Kennedy's perspective, in the United States over the last 100 years or so, specifically the last couple, we've been lulled to sleep. We think that there are no threats. Nobody can do us harm because we live in the US. Nothing bad can happen. But what we just saw in Israel is pretty scary.

Yes.

Um, people can plan for years and all kind of have a coordinated attack. So anyway, I want to get your thoughts on some of these things and what the average person can do to start again, like standing up for themselves, being able to protect their families and why that's important.

Yeah, that's huge. Um, it's extremely important and there's, there's so much to address there, but in a nutshell—

Well, we have time. Yeah.

Yeah, in a nutshell, we have an obligation to protect our family, our society, ourselves. And lately it looks like society has been kind of encouraging the bad guys because they're discouraging men to be men. And even women should be empowered to know physically nobody can work out their eyelids, their esophagus, their scrotum. You can't grow significant muscle on your shin bone. So there's always a physical vulnerability. Hmm. Somebody's attacking you on top, you could attack them on the bottom. Somebody attacks on the bottom, you could attack them on top. And people don't really protect centerline. So—

Quick pause. Are these things that you learned about, like, at what part of your experience where you taught these things? What agency taught you these things?

It wasn't really an agency. I've got a friend of mine, his name's Chris, and he's essentially a white Bruce Lee. So he could kill anybody with his hands, but he's also one of the nicest guys I've ever met, ever. And we used to train together. So it's Jeet Kune Do, JKD. And this is Bruce Lee's philosophy of martial arts. It's not an actual martial art, but it takes all the parts of various martial arts, incorporates the truth that's there, that's regardless of the system of art. There's certain truths that just exist. I'll give you a very raw example. A haymaker is very powerful, but it comes in at an angle, and a Wing Chun centerline hit straight forward will always beat the curve. So that's a classic example. Somebody— there's a lot of telegraphing there. If somebody's coming at an angle, you just strike straight.

Mm-hmm.

So the point of that, and I even talk about in the book too in a small segment, is Don't box a boxer. Don't wrestle a wrestler. Do the opposite of what they're doing so that you have an advantage. You know, don't play their game, play your game. And that's true in business, and it's true in self-protection. So you want to maximize the tactical advantage. So in life, in personal things, in business, and in self-defense.

A little bit of Sun Tzu, Art of War. A lot in there.

A lot in there, yeah.

And 100 years from now they'll be going, oh, a little bit of the opposite is true in there.

Right, I hope so. So yeah, it applies to everything. And I like Jeet Kune Do because that philosophy of self-defense is— it's thought, it's thought through. It's assessing, adapting, and overcoming to the situation. So for women, a woman who's about to be raped, be encouraged that You do not have to let that happen. You can defend yourself. And because the mere fact that they're a bully, a violent criminal, they're coming from a weak place. So you might as well hurt them. Just like a shark or a bear, if you get an opportunity, gouge out the eyes. No animal on this earth wants to fight without its eyes. They will run. So get super aggressive when you're being attacked to defend yourself because you have a right to defend yourself. And with a gun, you can make any law that you want. By definition, if you're a criminal, you're a non-law-abiding citizen, by definition.

Mm-hmm.

So you make any law you want. The only people who will obey that law, by definition, are law-abiding citizens, the good guys. So every law you make that makes it more difficult for somebody to arm themselves to protect themselves, You're only encouraging the bad guys, the criminals who don't care about the laws. They're gonna have guns anyway. They're gonna be violent anyway. But you're empowering them when they know nobody can defend themselves. The good guys can't defend themselves. So I think the Second Amendment and our founding fathers who wrote the Second Amendment knew that it was really important for the citizenry to be armed because we live in a difficult world with bad guys. And ironically, society will be safer if the bad guys know the good guys can defend themselves physically with the weapon or psychologically. Suddenly everything will calm down because the bad guys will not be emboldened.

It's a—

it's an issue of logic.

Yeah, it is. It makes a lot of sense. So, you know, for people that want to get rid of guns, You're just leaving guns with the bad guys.

That's right.

That's a way to simplify it.

That's right, and politicians won't tell you that. I think politicians enjoy a dependent citizenry, and I might get in trouble for saying this, but I agree. But I think, I think it's the reality. History tells you that. That's why I cover a lot of stories in the book with history, just to show that these principles are not recent cultural Human behavior things. Plato said no one's more hated than he who speaks the truth. I mean, that's an ancient era. And I have Marcus Aurelius in here. I know you quoted Marcus Aurelius in your book. That guy was a next-level human because he was the most powerful person on the planet, and yet he humbled himself deliberately. He knew in his own way that humility is the only path to wisdom. So he didn't wait to be humbled by life. He proactively sought out humility. And he did that through acknowledging a higher power. He actually, I think he believed in, uh, multiple gods back then. But the point is he believed in a higher power. He exercised gratitude. And he also exercised, uh, serving others. Those are 3 tactical methods that I, that I put in my book for people to seek out humility. And when you seek out that humility, you will gain wisdom and you could be more efficient with your life to reach your long-term goal.

When I first started reading personal development books, I was in a place in my life where I developed a little bit of an ego at the, you know, it would represent itself at the expense of other people. I wasn't a lot of fun to be around. And what was great about reading these books was that it was an act of humility because Every single time I opened up a new book, I was introduced to a subject that I previously knew nothing about. It was new language, new industries, new worlds, essentially. And I realized with every book that I read, there was more that I didn't know. Yeah, right. So it's a very— it creates some humility, I think, right?

Yeah, that's the beauty of knowledge. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

Yes.

But ironically, they're like, yeah, yeah, right, the opposite is true. And the more you get humbled by that— and that's why people who read and learn and educate themselves get wiser, not because they're, they're filling their heads with data, they're being humbled by what they realize they didn't know. So that wisdom comes out. So you imagine this like old sage with the long beard With this huge library like this, and they have so much wisdom, and it's because they've been humbled through their education, through their experiences. Yeah, humility is the only path to wisdom, any way I look at it. When I thought of that concept, it was an epiphany that I had when I was researching all of these other books, all these other biographies, all these other parables. It always said the same thing in a different way. The people who were humbled grew from it. And the people who rejected the wisdom that comes from being humbled were really frightened and scared, so they gave up.

Mm-hmm.

And that giving up makes them resentful of other people who are strong enough not to give up. They're being persistent. They're being resilient. And what they're thinking unconsciously is, why are they more resilient than I am? Why are they more persistent than I am? I hate them. And so they start lashing out. That's what envy is about.

Well, I think if, if you think that the government is going to protect you and you sort of sacrifice your own personal ability to protect in exchange for the government's protection, the opposite is actually true. You're less protected, right?

Right. Yeah, and the government or anybody who wants power needs a dependent person to siphon that energy out of. So I'll often think of the proletariat— I don't think of them that way. I think tyrants think of the proletariat, the common people, as battery cells. They'll drain them of their debt. They'll drain them of their purpose. They want them to be emoting and not thinking, because when you think, you start to question, and they don't want to be questioned.

Mm-hmm.

So thinking of the people as battery cells for your power And that power is a little Band-Aid covering their really gushing blood insecurities. So I'm not against power. I'm against power that's not by somebody who has humility. So I've got a chapter called Power is the Natural Corruptor Unless You Insert Humility. And I think that's a true dynamic. And the bad guys just never insert humility.

So Broadly speaking, going back to my fascination with Tim Kennedy and personal protection and how we've been lulled to sleep by the government and, you know, internationally and stuff, would you also say that the average person is at risk right now for being taken advantage of?

I think they are because the culture is pushing people to not defend themselves, to not think, but rather to emote. And all of these kind of cultural pressures are, I guess, removing the power of the people and giving power to the few tyrants on top, whether it's media personalities or politicians or whatever the case may be. It's the few people on top that are trying to hold on to their power and take the power from the people.

Mm-hmm.

If people just started thinking more, they would start to question more, and they wouldn't be as vulnerable. That's a good way to look at it. The way to make yourself less vulnerable is to think about things, to bring the unconscious to the conscious. Self-reflect, work on yourself, and when you improve yourself and you accomplish your goals, when you win, when you succeed, you're not just helping yourself, you're helping society. So that's an encouragement that I give to my reader is whatever your purpose is, don't let people pull you off your purpose because if you win, you can help other people and you cannot help people if you're dependent yourself. And there's so much fulfillment in the selflessness of fulfilling your purpose that it's ironic. There's selfish benefit— benefits to selflessness.

Yes.

Because then you suddenly have meaning. And meaning doesn't come from things. It comes from purpose. It comes from your calling. And anybody who's trying to discourage you off your calling is frankly an enemy, whether they realize it or not. And here's the hard part. Sometimes it's a family member. Sometimes it's a quote unquote best friend, but really evaluate your relationships. There's a concept we've talked about off camera, um, that I call association osmosis. The people you hang out with, they're gonna rub off on you whether you like it or not.

Mm-hmm.

So you might as well be strategic about it. The negative Nancys, put limitations or flat-out boundaries if they're really toxic. And the, the mentors, the winners, the people who always have your back, those wolf pack people, you really need to pursue time with them. Even if you don't know them, you could find them in books. You could find them even in movies. If they inspire you and you learn from them, spend time with them and you really will grow. Yeah, that's kind of a life hack— association osmosis.

Yeah, I think so too. I say in Rise of the Reader a number of times, I sort of reiterate the Jim Rohn quote, you are the average of the 5 people that you spend the most time with.

Absolutely true. I love that quote.

Yeah, and if you think you can handle negative relationships, You're not realizing that those negative relationships are bleeding into you a little bit subconsciously because we are an average.

That's right. And sometimes when we want to help people who always have problems, you've got to put a relative limit there. I'm a big proponent in helping people, but people could bring you down too. So if you spend too much time with people who are always bringing you down, you might want to just kind of put some brakes on that. Sometimes when we work out a lot or we're helping other people, you're doing noble things, but it could come out as a form of procrastination. All of us to some degree fear success, or we might have some level of doubts about our deserving success.

Mm-hmm.

And we might subconsciously self-sabotage. People who have encouraging parents and friends, it's easier for them for their natural default to be, Hey, go for it. This is great. But if you grew up in a toxic neighborhood— I've known some friends who grew up in like gang neighborhoods and they literally had to rebel from those cultures just to succeed. So they're going the path of least resistance, but they're going upstream when everybody's going downstream. They're going upstream, which is an extra difficult battle. But the more clear you are on your North Star, the more I guess strength and motivation you could have to just rebel from the negative cultural influences and social influences that are trying to pull you off that path and just kind of go for it. You have to be conscious about it though.

Yeah, you talk about— maybe I'll get this phrasing wrong, but in the book you talk about empathy as active psychology.

Yeah.

Okay, so the ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. Something that I've been spending a lot of time thinking about is you know, the average person is not reading and implementing personal development books.

Yeah.

And the average person, using another saying, is living their life as a sheep, right? Consuming negative news content, divisive social media content all day long, believing everything, removing their own agency and handing it to the government or handing it to the people around them, their boss, whatever the case is. And so, I've tried to practice empathy and put myself in that person's shoes and say, how do I get that person to wake up and start thinking a little bit more? You know, if I could get them to read Rise of the Reader and realize that they do have more potential, they can be an act of good on this planet.

Right.

Um, they could wake up and start to fight against that negative momentum until they find themselves surrounded by people that are encouraging. Um, I've been trying to put myself in their shoes, and so I like how you say that Empathy is active psychology. It's psychology in work. You're actually using the principles.

Yeah, the idea of empathy is interesting because you're trying to see somebody else's point of view. I'll take it past the word empathy and define it as sophisticated empathy, which just makes it deliberate, proactive. You're consciously thinking about putting yourself in another person's shoes. And psychology, the study of human behavior, the best synonym for that is like a sophisticated or advanced empathy, a deliberate empathy. Because to understand somebody else, first of all, you have to understand yourself. We all have this like fishbowl view where we view the world through our own prism of our own private lives. That's unavoidable. But when you deliberately look out of your fishbowl Into the ocean of the world out there.

Mm-hmm.

That effort by itself will put you in a more sophisticated place of understanding, because you're actually making the effort. And that effort matters. And once you start doing that, you understand your own weaknesses, your own strengths, your own vulnerabilities. You could suddenly appreciate other people's weaknesses, strengths, vulnerabilities, for good or bad. You could just see where they're coming from and what will motivate them. And a good way to answer your question on how you could reach out, reach out to people who, you know, have more potential is to show them the emotional, meaningful value of what that potential is. Everybody's different, but you're probably recognizing certain potential in other people. But here's the rub. You could take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I was born in Texas, so these Southern phrases are just wonderful. I heard, uh, Uh, one of my buddies say that, and I know it's an old saying, but it really resonates with me because sometimes you just have to plant some seeds and then let it go. But those seeds do matter. And if they're ever ready to water those seeds, they'll remember that conversation, that encouragement you gave them, and they'll, they'll grow from that and they'll probably reach out to you. But I guess the best way to plant that seed is with some fertilizer of pointing out their meaning. their, their worth, their potential that you recognize that they might not recognize.

Well, I like that definition of— and I highlighted it in the book, in the beginning of the book— sophisticated empathy, right? And when I was growing up, I was always told I was not very empathetic. But I think now that I'm a little bit older, what I realized is that people meant I wasn't very sympathetic, right? I wasn't emotionally able to feel what other people were feeling, but I was able to logically understand what other people were going through.

Yeah.

And I think some of that— this is interesting, I'm just kind of realizing this for the first time— I think some of that, uh, the ability to understand came from enhanced pattern recognition that I developed. Because in our household— Chandler's behind the cameras over there— when we were growing up, uh, there were— my dad grew up in a military household And so I think that we sort of grew up in a secondary military household in some ways. We weren't allowed to use bad language. We weren't allowed to say certain things, act certain ways. And so when friends would come over, for instance, I was always very aware, hyper-aware of what they were saying, how they were communicating, how they were behaving. And if my parents were around, like, who was present, who could hear, who could— because I didn't want to get in trouble. Right.

Right.

And I wanted, I wanted my dad to think, okay, Nick and his friends, they're well behaved, they're good kids. Like, I wanted that recognition. And so as a result, I was always able to see things from my dad's perspective, my mom's perspective, and every single day for years and years and years and thousands of interactions. And I, I was able to sort of develop, I think, almost a form of enhanced pattern recognition or Sophisticated empathy, the ability to be in somebody else's shoes from their perspective.

Yes.

Does that make sense?

It does make sense because you were deliberate about it. So that, that's what I meant before by just having that effort already puts you into a position of greater understanding. Yeah, because you're trying. Most of us, I think all human beings, see the world from an egocentric point of view because we are ourselves. We are first individuals before we're part of a group or part of society.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean you have to be selfish. It just means you have to recognize that we view things from our bubble, like I was saying before. But the effort part fights that to the degree of you're recognizing that there's an ocean of points of views out there, an ocean of value outside of ourselves that we could incorporate or at least have to manage. And the effort matters. So obviously you gained a lot from that. And that's kind of corroborating my stance on it is just making that effort helps you understand people and it helps you understand yourself because you were recognizing those things about yourself. Like maybe I'm not so sensitive to other people's emotions, but I'm questioning and understanding and seeking out that wisdom.

Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting to think about. Anyway, I'm, uh, the other thing that I wanted to talk about that you mentioned before was, how did you phrase it? Higher purpose, you know, connection to God, understanding of God. Like, how did you phrase it?

I think I was referring to, uh, the only path to wisdom being humility.

Yes. And one of the ways to—

Right. I mean, life is going to humble you, so you don't want to be humbled by getting in a car accident and breaking your femur bone. Or being diagnosed with cancer, or getting divorced, or losing a job. Those things happen, so we could be humbled by those things. But I found that if you proactively humble yourself with these three methods: acknowledging a higher power, gratitude in different ways—a mere thank you is extremely valuable because it's a form of gratitude—and serving others, a tactical way. When you start to get in your own head, serving others. Gets you out of your own head and makes you understand yourself, ironically. But it starts to, to, uh, bring meaning into your actions, into your life, and suddenly you're more fulfilled. And then you're able to be strengthened and move forward with your purpose, your individual purpose.

Well, let's go a little bit deeper on each one. So I think I've heard you say flawed Christian. Is that how you would self-identify?

Yeah. I'm a flawed Christian because I'm a sinner. I have weaknesses. I have failures. But all these things— well, I start out my website by saying if you're human, you're mortal, and if you're mortal, you're flawed. And your weaknesses, your strengths, your limitations, your quote-unquote failures, they're all ways to transform those weaknesses into super strengths, because that's where we grow. How do we start out this podcast? Adversity is the catalyst to purpose. All those weaknesses and vulnerabilities and quote unquote failures are adversity. That's a simple way of pointing out our human adversity. I'm filled with it, and I will never be a saint, and I'll never be perfect. But pursuing sainthood and perfection is unrealistic, and that's why, as a flawed Christian, I recognize my need for frankly Jesus Christ. I I know. That I need Jesus just to fulfill myself, fulfill my purpose, and, um, and I can't do it alone. I can't do it without God. So, um, what I'm asking my reader, because it's a secular book even though I talk about God in there, is simply acknowledge a higher power. And for those people who are squirming right now in their chairs, I often give the analogy of The insect of ants. I don't think I talked about this on Ken's podcast.

You did.

I did?

Yeah. Or I read it. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I put it in the book, but I'll just summarize it. Ants, the insect, they know we exist to some degree. You know, on the weekend Little League fields, you know, we sometimes create big shadows over their homes, sometimes stumble over their homes. They know we exist to some degree, but they'll never understand we drive cars, we have relationships, we have jobs. They'll never get that. And yet all those things are true. So I compare us to little insects, even though I don't think God would. Um, we acknowledge God exists, but we'll never fully understand all the things that the person who created the universe understands. So we shouldn't even try. We just have faith with that.

Yeah.

If we did understand those things, our brains would literally explode. So that in itself is why it brings humility. Just think about what I just said, and it's extremely humbling. We'll never get it all. That's why God gives us paradoxes. This sentence is false. Think about that for a second. If it's false, then it's true. If it's true, then it's false. God gives us these unsolvable puzzles on purpose just to remind us, look, you're never going to get it all, so just have faith in me. And the opposite is true by itself is a paradox. If the opposite's true, then it's false, and vice versa.

Mm-hmm.

But when you add context, Suddenly it makes sense. You know, whatever you're talking about, you know, the Chihuahua acts like it's brave, but the opposite is true. It's, you know, suddenly you have context. It makes sense. So in a nutshell, I love acknowledging those humbling things. Nobody likes to be humbled, but I love acknowledging those humbling things because it suddenly puts life into perspective, makes us humble, and allows us to pick up that fruit of wisdom. And go forward strengthened with that wisdom.

Well, I'm a flawed Christian as well, and for the last 6 months or so I've gotten back into the habit of going to church every Saturday or Sunday with my mom depending on schedule. And I've been caught on Instagram joking around saying that the Bible is my favorite personal development book. And what you're talking about reminds me of Romans 12:2, and do not be conformed to this world, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And it's a humbling experience to read something and then realize— so you're, you're in the act of education, which helps you realize you're less educated than you thought you were, right? So the opposite is true.

And that's the thread that connects our earlier conversation. The more of these that you read, the more you realize that you don't know much.

Yes.

But you know a lot more than the people who haven't read these.

Yes.

Which, it's all humbling. And here's the kind of the more advanced version of everything. If you climb your mountain and you reach, reach your North Star— let me preface this, like, I keep putting quotes for failures because I think failure is a prerequisite to success.

Me too.

So just, just so your audience knows, that's why I keep quoting failures, because failures are very valuable. But if you pursue your North Star, You climb and you reach your summit. That view is beautiful. Now here's danger. You're at the peak of this summit. It's freezing up there. There's no oxygen. It's— the air is thin. If you get off balance with that pride, suddenly the opposite of humility, pride, the antithesis of humility, you could slip off and really hurt yourself. And a lot of people do that. I call that—it's not my phrasing, but it's the success syndrome. Stephen Burgess, I think, was his name. He came up with that phrasing. But there's a lot of people who reach success and self-sabotage because on some unconscious level they don't deserve that success. Suddenly, they'll take advantage of—or power is a natural corruptor. Success is a form of power. They'll stop humbling themselves. Like I made it, I'm awesome. And that's the most dangerous thing you could do. So success, reaching your goal, finally making it is another opportunity to proactively humble yourself. So you manage that success well, you manage the fame well, you manage the money well, uh, so that you won't fall off that mountain. You could climb down, but you don't have to fall off.

Yeah. I've been focused a lot on successes within the process. It's not a destination so that you can never reach the mountaintop, you know?

Yeah.

Like, for me, that's not realistic, but it's also self-protective in a way, because although progress is part of what I define as success, progress is never-ending. You can always improve. And so it keeps you humble because you're never at the— you're on the mountain and you're always aspiring for more, but at the same time, you're not ever beating your chest saying, I'm the best.

So Yeah, I like that. It's very tactical and you'll never fall off that way because you're constantly in a very practical way humbling yourself. It's extremely healthy. I like that strategy.

And at the same time, every day you're a little bit farther up the mountain. So you can, in hindsight, look back and feel gratitude for where you are, but you're not saying I'm done because it's a forever climb. So speaking of gratitude, which is number 2, we were talking about my tattoo. Here. I used to journal 3 things that I was grateful for every single day, and now I have the tattoo 1, 2, 3. So I focus on 3 things every single day that I'm grateful for still, but now in my subconscious I'm picking this up 1,000 times per day. I also on the back of my wrist have agradecido, which is gratitude tattooed in Spanish. And so they're just constant reminders no matter where my arm is, I'm always thinking about gratitude.

Awesome.

Talk to us a little bit more about gratitude. What are some of the ways that you practice gratitude? Do you have any routines, any practices, anything that the audience can take away and act on?

Mine is a little less, I guess, visual. But I think about it on a regular basis throughout the day, things I'm grateful for. I've got a tattoo on my lower back in Old English with a 1, 2, 3. I'm just kidding. I don't really have that tattoo.

We would've had matching tattoos with books.

And nobody would've seen that on camera. No, I don't have that tattoo, but I do write things down. I do verbalize. I drive a lot with my job, so I go to all kinds of places. And, um, in those drives, I often think, proactively think about things I'm grateful for, and I'll articulate it to God. So it's a way of praying, praying for For people who are not a Christian or on the fence, it's simply a conversation with God. Doesn't have to be a formal thing or certain words that have to be read. But I just have these conversations with God. So I'm killing two birds with one stone when I think about what I'm grateful for and I'm thanking God for those things. So I'm in the same process, I'm acknowledging a higher power, God.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm articulating the things I'm grateful for. before I request assistance in certain things. But simply requesting help for certain things is also a humbling act because you know you can't do it on your own. And I always like to riddle my life with ways of serving others, whether it's encouraging people on a phone call or physically going somewhere and doing a service for, for a group of people who might need help.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think of gratitude as— I think of it as an input to the system. One of my favorite quotes from an Indian monk, Gaur Gopal Das, he says, it's not happy people that are grateful. So happiness is not a prerequisite for gratitude. It's the opposite. The opposite is true.

Yeah.

Gratitude— it's grateful people that are happy. So gratitude is an input to the system. The output is happiness. And so if you can practice gratitude, which is a form of humility, yep, in a way it's focusing on what you have, not what you lack, then you end up in a better spot.

Yeah. And, and Viktor Frankl's big thing is meaning is the purpose in life. Yeah, it's not money or a cycle, a certain psychological form of therapy to be grounded. It's finding meaning, which is another word for purpose.

Mm-hmm.

For your calling, if you find meaning, um, you will be fulfilled. And that brings happiness. The pursuit of happiness ironically hurts people because they pursue these superficial things, which we're all guilty of. Um, but when you're focused on your purpose, which I say is more meaningful if it's selfless, if it's serving others in some way, then suddenly you'll be fulfilled and indirectly you'll be happy.

When you mentioned Viktor Frankl, it reminds me there's a metaphor in, in his book where he talks about chess. And so is there one universal purpose? No, it's just like asking a chess player, is there one best move? It depends on context.

Yeah.

It depends on playing style, depends on where you are in the game. That's what determines the best move. And then that went to a Jordan Peterson thing in my brain. Jordan Peterson talks about the value of chess is that it is so difficult. So the more difficult a game is, the more constraints the game has, the more difficult it becomes, but also the more valuable and satisfying a win becomes. So just the opposite is true. The more constraints you have on a game, the more difficult it becomes, but the more valuable it also becomes.

Yeah, I love that. And in your book, you also mentioned if you can move the pieces any direction, there'd be no meaning there.

Right, exactly.

But having the positions have these limitations suddenly gives you meaning. I give a parable in, in my book on the caterpillar. And this kid found this caterpillar, and he, uh, it's the fable of the caterpillar, and he kept it in a jar, and suddenly it had this pupa or chrysalis, as it's going to change. He was worried, and his mother encouraged him, look, it's going to change into something wonderful. The kid got overzealous. He, he saw that it was starting to open up, but it was taking too long, so he was worried. He helped the cocoon open by cutting pieces on both ends, and he felt great because, I'm helping him, he's coming out. But he came out this squirmy, slimy thing, and the caterpillar with its shriveled, wrinkled wings never developed into a butterfly. Which was tragic. It was devastating. And they took it to this local college professor, this scientist, and said, what happened? What's going on here? Why didn't it— It needed the pressure of forcing itself out, the struggle of getting out of that cocoon to squeeze the right juices into the wings and really become a butterfly. And now because you took— you cut that corner and took the adversity out, It will never become what it's meant to be, and that metaphor is just rock solid.

You know, yeah, I think it is too. Well, we're getting close to an hour here. Anything else that you want to mention before we wrap things up today?

No, just encouraging the reader that despite the people pulling, trying to pull you off your mountain, to really go for it because you probably have a lot of good to do for the world and for yourself. So help yourself so you could help society.

I think so too. Okay, 2 final quick questions. What book have you gifted the most over the last couple of years?

One of them was Ryan Holiday's The Obstacle Is the Way.

Great book.

Yeah, I loved that book. I quoted it a couple times in my book. And another one of his that I really like is Silence Is the Key, which I think you have a tattoo that kind of reminds you to be silent. Yes. So Silence Is Key. Those 2 are some of my favorite nonfiction books. And a great fiction book that tells you a lot about humanity is East of Eden by John Steinbeck. He covers the good guys, the bad guys, and really gets visually into the weeds of like who these people are and where they're coming from, like I do in my nonfiction. So I think your readers would appreciate those 3 books.

Yeah. Fantastic. So Luke's famous question is, imagine that you disappear, the book disappears, anything on your website disappears. There's nothing left, but you could leave the world with one message. What would it be?

Humility is the only path to wisdom.

Fantastic. I love it. Okay. Final, final question. One more time. Where can people go? What can people do if they want to get in touch with you? They want to buy a copy of the book. They want to hire you as somebody who can come in and teach their organization some of the things that we talked about today.

The easiest way to get me for all the above is efrandelgado.com. I've got links there where you could reach out to me, or you could buy the book. So it's efrandelgado.com.

Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thanks, Nick.