Leadership Mistakes Every Young Leader Should Avoid with James Shin

One of the key things as a leader at work, you got to think about the next generation as well. So it is one of the key things is to develop future leaders. When I say leaders, it doesn't mean that like high-up leaders, and it can be leaders in different functional areas. Having that will help you as well. So young people saying, oh, I got to be it, and I'm not going to have anybody else in my role. then actually that's bad for you. Then you cannot move. Developing, uh, the pipeline, you know, leaders will help you move on to, you know, next role, right? And then also by doing that, your company is better, your country is better, our world is better. So focus on that wherever, you know, possible.

James, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How feeling today?

I'm doing, uh, finer than a frog's hair.

I love that. Well, I'm excited to chat with you about leadership, and one of the subjects for today is about true leadership. What are some examples of poor leadership, and what are some examples of true leadership?

So the, uh, true leadership is, uh, looking at, you know, long-term view And I would say, you got to know what good looks like. And then you know where you are, and then work with your people. I mean, there are always good people and find the ways to get there. That's good leadership. Poor leadership is obviously focusing on short-term views. Oh, I got to generate profit here and there and then make the kind of tough, not so good decisions about people. And to me, that's, you know, bad leadership. So.

So I love— there was a story, I think, yeah, it's chapter 4. I was just looking up which reflection it was about knowing what good looks like. And in here on page 13, you say effort and passion alone aren't enough to achieve excellence. You can work tirelessly, but if you don't clearly understand what good looks like, you may never reach your full potential. So what do you mean by that? You need to know what good looks like. looks like.

So let's say I'm, I'm in Houston, and I want to go to, you know, Boston. And so I'm really like, you know, worked out, I'm really in good shape, I ran certain direction. And then I may end up in Seattle, not Boston. So that's exactly the example. So you got to know what good looks like. It can be food, it can be, you know, work, it can be something else. Then you know which direction you're gonna go. So that's absolutely important, uh, you know, to me. So—

Yeah, and I think that so many young leaders, they have a misunderstanding of what good looks like from a leadership point of view. And things have changed. I mean, what are some of the differences between good leadership 20 years ago and good leadership today? Or do you think they're the same?

So I think it changed in my view, personal view, when I started working in the corporate world. I worked with really good leaders. They focused on people and the long-term company view. So when we had financial difficulty in situations like financial crisis in 2008, 2009, the leaders try to find the ways to, or not to lay off people. So very creative ideas and things like that. Now it seems like a more easy decisions to lay off people because of the short-term view. So I think that changed quite a bit, again, in my mind.

So why did you decide to write a book on leadership? And why did, you know, why a book? Why not something else like a video series, for example? Right.

So, you know, to me, life is continuous in a journey of, you know, learning and growth and, you know, discovery, right? So I have experienced many changes, challenges, you know, throughout my life. You know, for example, moving from South Korea to the US, and then I got into totally different functional roles, moving to different locations and countries and working with different people, you know, globally. So a lot of those situations were swim or sink situations. Fortunately, I was able to swim, but I learned a lot. I grew a lot. But so writing this book, I want to share that with people, especially young professionals. So instead of you getting into the situation, swim or sink situation, you learn from, you know, reading. And to me, that's absolutely beneficial. So you can apply insights to your life. And I gotta point out your book, and I read through it. This is tremendous, you know, fantastic. It resonates, you know, with me. So, you know, first thing you said in a guiding principle The right book at the right time can change your life. And I absolutely agree, this is high ROI investment, you know, reading books.

So yeah, I have, I have some friends that they're not, they're not big readers, and they would rather learn from their own failures. And I always joke around, and I think I say it in Rise of the Reader somewhere, that Failure is a great teacher, but it's not the best teacher. The best teacher is somebody else's failure because you get to go through the entire experience without actually experiencing it. And so you're right. I mean, you have decades of leadership experience that have been condensed into 52 reflections. And instead of sinking myself, uh, I could just watch you go through the experience, learn from your lesson, apply it to my current reality, and just bypass all of the crazy experience. So. I just think other people's failures, uh, are really the best teachers, right?

I totally agree. So yeah, what, um, yeah, go ahead.

I was going to say, what, uh, what are some of your favorite books? I mean, are there other books that you read that informed your leadership opinions?

So I, um, I generally like the, um, the personal experiences, uh, you know, people went through. You know, one example is the I read in a books. There's actually more than one book, but books about the Ernest Shackleton. So he went to the Antarctica and then got stuck, and then he went through that without losing any people. That was in a good leadership. So that's you know one of the you know books that I I really liked. But also I like the recent books about the psychology of you know money.

Yeah, that's a good one. Morgan Housel.

Exactly. So, uh, investment, very traditional thinking, but I agree with his thinking about the investment and stuff, a very traditional way. So, uh, you know, those kind of books I enjoy. I apply, uh, you know, insights to my, my life as well.

So yeah, reading, you know, reading is such a great way to learn because you get to fully immerse yourself in the content and spend a lot of time with it. Now, with your book, you decided to write 52 reflections. When you were writing it, did you think, okay, somebody will read one every single week for 52 weeks? Was that the idea?

Yeah, that was the idea. So that's why I picked, you know, 52, you know, stories representing, you know, 52 weeks. But I wrote in a way That even James Ishin can understand easily. So you don't have to spend 52 weeks.

So I was going to say, I mean, you know, because of the nature of my work, but I found it very easy to go from one story to the next. Each one of those stories is short and it's easy to read and understand. And so I found myself reading like 10 at a time rather than just one at a time.

Right. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Right in the beginning of the book, you had something that I thought was kind of a funny way to kick off the book. Let me bring this back up because I just closed it, uh, but I highlighted this and I wanted to bring it up on the podcast today. You said that— here it is— you can tell— well, this is a Dr. Judah Folkman quote, but you can tell a leader by counting the number of arrows in his ass. Why did you decide to put that into the first reflection?

So the, um, so going through the, you know, leadership, you know, roles, and you face a lot of, you know, challenges Maybe one example, supply chain, things can go wrong. So you don't have parts to produce your products, right? So then typically what happens is the whole organization, hey, where is the parts? And things like that. The good leaders, they take it on and then protect your team rather than, oh, so-and-so in my team did it. So as a leader, you got to take it And you got to protect, protect your team, learn from it, and then continuously improve. That's why, you know, good leaders will have a lot of, you know, arrows in your, you know, bottom.

So it seems like a big concept or philosophy in your leadership teachings is this idea of protecting the team, right? You say, yeah, you want to think long term. You don't just want to lay people off in the short term. Or you've got to take arrows, right? Take responsibility for your team, extreme ownership. And so you really do seem like a team player. A lot of people, when they think about leadership, they think of, okay, you know, drive bottom line for the company, make sure the shareholders are happy. But you're more like, uh, well, you seem at least a little bit more like a boots on the ground, make sure that you're in there with the people that you're leading every single day, not kind of distanced from them. Is that— would that be a fair assessment?

Yeah, I think so. Again, I learned that from my leaders as well. So I was in a good environment working with good leaders. So that's from my previous leaders as well. But there are various aspects in that. One is you don't have to get into minor details, but you got to understand what's going on, how things are running in your group. Without that, you just don't know, you're gonna basically lose it. Second thing is things happen, but you don't protect your team blindly.

Mm-hmm.

So protect your team, but there are lessons learned, and then share that with your team. Hey, this is, you know, what happened, we learned from it, let's avoid it, you know, in the future, or we can improve, you know, this process and systems. So that's an opportunity for your team to grow together. And then eventually it works out. Now, there are bad performers, obviously, then you have a process to address that. Eventually, you got to make a tough decision. But that should be kind of rare cases than common cases.

So, James, you said that you really want to help young leaders. Um, and, but young readers aren't reading that much, right? And so for somebody in the audience today that's listening to this podcast and they love podcasts and that's their favorite way to consume content, what advice do you have about reading your book? Why should they decide to spend $20 and pick up a copy and read one lesson per week?

So the, uh, again, as I mentioned, you know, earlier, and I went through the, uh, you know, big changes and challenging times, and that's why I wrote the, uh, you know, 52 stories. So instead of going through that, and then you can read those stories and then reflect on those stories and how you can apply to your life. But also, again, some people are not reading, so I use other avenues as well. So I post articles and my thoughts on LinkedIn. I'm giving seminars uh, at the universities, and this kind of, you know, podcast, uh, is a good avenue. But I really encourage, you know, young people to read books, not necessarily my book, but there are so many good books out there. So.

Yeah, I think so too. Um, we will put a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes below so that people can connect with you and check out some of those articles as well. Uh, I think I think that today young people are just distracted. They're distracted. They're scrolling on social media all day long. They're seeing all this crazy divisive content. And so for anybody that feels like I'm speaking to them, you know, James's book is an invitation to slow down and to go through these stories and reflections and consider that a form of meditation or yoga, right? It's just An invitation to press pause and to immerse yourself in content that, like you said, is for the long term. I love to think about reading as an investment in your future self. Your future self will look back on you and pat you on the back and say, thank you for reading this content. It informed the rest of my life. Versus like, I can't even tell you how many times, James, I watch a piece of even, even a long-form Netflix show. I'll watch an entire show, 3 seasons. A year later, I can't even tell you the name of the main character, right? That doesn't serve my future self. But these reflections in these books, that's what serves my future self. And so when you talk about developing young leaders, what other ways do you think about developing young leaders? Of course, there's reading content and learning from the experiences of others. What are, what are some other things that young leaders should be paying attention to?

So young leaders, and, you know, to me, you gotta think about what you like and then experience as much as, you know, possible. It can be cooking, it can be traveling, it can be exercising. So experience as much as possible. There are 2 aspects of it. One is it helps your mental and physical, you know, health, which actually helps your work-life balance. But also another aspect is it helps your business mind as well, because those diverse experiences give you creative ideas, and then that will help your business in a better— whatever you do.

So yeah, and you've lived all over the world. I mean, it's funny, when we were talking in the past, I said, hey, where are you from? You said, oh, I'm from the South, and that got a chuckle out of me. What has traveling the world and living in different countries done for your leadership?

Understanding the people better, culture and etiquette and all that stuff. So one common thing is people are people. So people want to be treated well. They want to be respected. They have things to do. They have what they like and stuff. So core values, people are the same, just different cultures, different languages, and etc. So having that experience, one, understanding people better, but also again, a flip side is that helps your business as well. I now, I understand how to approach different people in that environment and discipline a project and etc. So it has both aspects. Uh, traveling, learning about different people.

So yeah. As you read in Rise of the Reader, I love traveling internationally. It's a really big motivator for me, spending time in different countries and just getting not only diverse landscapes but also diverse cultures, like you said. And I never really thought about how that improved me as a leader, but I think you're entirely right. And so for, for somebody in the audience today, like, where should they go? What should they do? What's the first step there? Is it just to book a plane ticket to somewhere they've never been and try to immerse themselves in the culture? Or do you recommend taking a job overseas? What are some of your thoughts on that?

So the, uh, if you want to take it really seriously, and I, and I would recommend that get a job in different country. I mean, yeah, it'll be awesome. But at times that can be challenging. So then you just list out what your interests are, and then you can correlate that to the locations. If it is hiking, it can be Switzerland, and you can climb Mount Fuji. And so you can do it personal way or professional way as well. And when I lived in Korea, China, or different countries, and I ran into foreigners, you know, there. Um, I admire them. That's a big jump, uh, going into a different country, uh, you don't even speak their language, and then go there and get a job and live with them. So, uh, it's just fantastic experience. So—

When you first came to the U.S., what was one thing that surprised you about American culture?

So the, um, the interactions between people. Actually, there are 2 things. You know, one is interaction between, you know, people and then, you know, food. So first, you know, people side. So in Korea, and very respectable in your culture to the older people or higher ranking, you know, people. So you call them by their last name, Mr. So-and-so, Dr. So-and-so. You don't know— you never call them by their, you know, first name. So when I came to the States, I had a hard time to call my boss, you know, by their, you know, first name. I really literally, and then very friendly, very casual slash, you know, professional. But those are things pretty new to me, and then I had to learn. And the food, and when I came here, one of the first places I went to was, you know, Pizza Hut. And it was very salty. And, uh, there is salty and then very sweet, um, other things. But, uh, over time I got used to it. So when I went back to, you know, Korea, and then it was totally opposite.

So, so then when you go back to Korea, you're like, where's the flavor?

Yeah, exactly right.

Yeah, that's pretty funny. Um, on the, on the name piece, so having a difficult time calling people by their first name, I mean, do you find that The business culture, let's say, in South Korea has more respect than the US culture, or is it just different? Is there a right or a wrong way? What— I mean, what do you prefer?

It's— in the end, it's not about the, uh, respecting more or less. It's just, just a culture. So, uh, that's what they expect in Korea versus that's what they expect, you know, in the US. And the same thing, uh, other countries have different, uh, you know, uh, I guess, you know, etiquette, uh, you know, culture. So again, it's not about respecting, uh, more, you know, less. So you just gotta learn how people do things, you know, there.

So, all right, so we've talked about lessons on leadership, you know, through your work experience, through international travel. What about lessons on leadership through the lens of nature? What have you learned from Nature.

So the nature, I wrote, you know, one piece in there when I lived in Illinois for several years, and there were, you know, small ponds, and those ponds attracted, you know, nature. So when I ran there, walked there, I observed, you know, them. That gave me opportunities to pause and reflect on things. And then also I watched, you know, documentaries on animals, you know, as well. And this, that's the time to pause and reflect and recharge and, you know, do more, you know, later. So you got to find those opportunities to take advantage of it for yourself.

So yeah, we, my wife and I were talking about this the other day, James. We were, or should I say Mr. Shin? We were, we were talking about it the other day. I think that Especially, I mean, while I have done short stints living for a few months internationally in other cultures, I've spent 98% of my time in the United States. And so what I can say is, especially in Massachusetts where I live, sort of in an urban community, we're disconnected from nature. And there is so much to learn from slowing down and observing nature, but also just being immersed in it. And yeah, I know that you can walk out into your backyard and observe a 1-square-foot block of grass and there's nature happening there, like Thoreau talks about. But also just getting out into the woods or out into, you know, I miss that. I think I need a little bit more of that in my life.

Right. And then also another piece I wrote was about the, uh, you know, watching the stars, right? So I had to get up early in the morning for work. It was stressful, you know, time at the time. So when I was leaving work or, you know, coming back at night and I was watching, you know, stars, and those moments also are very helpful as well. So yeah, we got to find an opportunity to do that.

So yeah, it's like, it's like looking at an image of the Earth from outer space. You know, sometimes you just realize how We're all on one planet, right? And like you said, people are people. We all, whether we're on one side of the planet or the other, we all want generally the same things. And if we could treat each other more like people, I think that's probably what a better leader does too, right? Yeah. Okay, so, uh, good lessons on, on like the— on nature, I suppose, which is pause and reflect and observe and get perspective. What lessons about leadership have you learned from your family?

So the— there are a few things, you know. One is, you know, my mom, and briefly, she was a really good student in high school, but because of, you know, family situation and culture at the time, her father, my grandfather, decided to send my mom's, you know, brothers, you know, to college rather than, you know, her. It was a heartbreaking situation, but she is very resilient and fantastic mom. I learned a lot from her. So that's one I constantly think about and then reinforce myself. But also, I got married later in my life and my daughter is only 10. Her birth was really a big change, you know, for me. So I cherish that moment. And obviously raising a kid is not easy, but fundamentally that helps me, you know, better, better person. So those are the few things that I can say. And then my wife, she's, you know, fantastic mom and wife. So.

Yeah, have you, uh, what leadership lessons have you applied to business that you learned as a parent? Does anything come to mind?

Yeah, kind of, kind of similar thing, right? So you gotta have a long-term view. So something happens, you know, uh, each moment, you can easily react to it right away, but just like, you know, work, so you just gotta pause and think about what's, you know, good for, you know, my daughter. And then you gotta you need to talk about it. And then it's got to be a conversation or what, you know, two-way interactions, right? So it's not one way, hey, you did this wrong, and then etc. So I see the parallel between, you know, personal life and, you know, work.

So as now, I have one kid, he's only about 9 and a half months old. What advice, not only as a leader, but as a father, would you give to me other than long-term view? I, I think that, uh, I very much think that way, which is great. But what else, what else would you tell me as a young dad? Always looking to hear great advice.

So again, I'm not a perfect dad, so I don't know if I can give you, you know, good advice. But again, uh, trying to spend, you know, more time, that's the key thing. So, uh, one of the reasons I made, you know, career, you know, change a little bit more than a year ago was exactly that. Um, you know, I had an assignment in China, my family was in the US and traveling back and forth. So having that time with your, you know, child or children, that is really beneficial. So find the ways to spend more time with your son. And then there are other aspects as well, but the first step is to spend more time.

So I, I think it's great advice, and nobody is a perfect parent, so don't worry about that. I, I read the other day that this kind of hit me. said something like, it's the quality of time at work that matters. And it's the quantity of time with your family that matters. And, you know, I think a lot of people end up, like you're saying, regretting not spending more time with their family. And so I'm trying to be really conscious of that. And every single reminder of that is helpful. So I appreciate your, your advice there.

So, uh, my wife, uh, keeps, you know, telling me, um, your family spells love T-I-M-E. So—

I think that's a good lesson. And I would say, uh, you know, that applies to leadership in a lot of ways, right?

Right.

Yeah. What, um, what other stories from your book would you like to share with the audience today? What else comes to mind as a good representation of what they might get if they decide to buy a copy?

So one of the key things as a leader at work, you got to think about the next generation as well. So it is one of the key things is to develop future leaders. When I say leaders, it doesn't mean they're like high-up leaders, and it can be leaders in different functional areas. Having that will help you as well. So, you know, young people saying, oh, I gotta be it, and oh, I'm not gonna have anybody else in my role, then actually that's bad for you. Then you cannot move. Developing the pipeline leaders will help you move on to your next role, right? And then also by doing that, your company is better, your country is better, our world is better. So focus on that wherever possible.

Yeah, it's kind of like that idea that, you know, you don't tear people down, you stand on the shoulders of, you know, the work that they've done. It's collaboration versus competition, really.

Right.

Yeah, I think that's great. James, what comes to mind when I ask you, what is the biggest leadership mistake that you've made throughout your career?

Wow, that's a really good question. Um, I, I, to be honest with you, I made so many mistakes, uh, as a leader. Um, it's tough to pick one. Um, let me think. If I pick one, um, that's related to one person in my team, um, when I was in CAT. We we were doing, uh, you know, a big project, and, uh, I was under pressure, you know, from leadership. And then so that person was a little bit abrasive, and so, um, the pressure came from the top, uh, to, you know, um, address that issue. So I don't think I handled that very well. So that reminds me of, you know, starfish in a story, right? So You know, you throw in a starfish into the ocean, you save that, you know, one starfish, right, instead of, you know, whole starfish in a population. So that individual eventually left the company on his own. But to me, I could have handled that individual, you know, situation better. But I don't think I handled that well. Uh, in that situation. So again, there are so many mistakes that, uh, I made, but because it comes down to one individual, I could have, you know, saved in a while, just like in a starfish. So I would, I would say that's, you know, a big mistake I, I made.

So the, the starfish analogy is like there are a bunch of starfish on the, you know, on the shore, and you can throw one back into the ocean, and people might say, well, Well, what about all the other ones that aren't going to get thrown back? And you say, yeah, but it matters to the one that I did throw back, right? That's kind of the idea there.

Right, exactly. Yeah, that story actually came from one of my leaders early on. So we are deploying big initiative at Caterpillar in 110,000 people, you faced frustrating situations. And my leader saw that and then he gave me that story. So you do it one small step at a time. But, but again, when it comes down to, you know, personal people, uh, that matters, you know, more. But again, as I mentioned, I could have handled that better. So.

Yeah. Well, thank you for being vulnerable and for sharing that, right? It's— I think sometimes people think, okay, here's a big successful business author. who's done everything perfect, but we're all just people and you're trying to get better every single day and you make mistakes. And same thing, same thing is definitely true of me. So I think it's, uh, it's always good to sort of take the Superman cape off for a minute and just share some things that maybe you wish you did a little differently, or that at least you had a chance to learn from.

Right.

Yeah. Well, James, this has been a great conversation. I have a couple of, uh, rapid-fire questions that I'll ask you, but first, where can people go to get a copy of your book? Where should they go? What should they do?

So that's the pro— uh, the, the, the, the pro— uh, place is, you know, amazon.com. So look up the, uh, the Leaders in Seoul by, you know, James Shin. Um, that's, you know, place you can find. Thank you.

And if somebody would like to connect with you on social media, is LinkedIn your primary platform?

Yeah, so follow me on LinkedIn. Uh, that's where I post in articles and share my thoughts. on different things, just like, you know, those, you know, stories. So, uh, also you can DM me directly, uh, if you have any questions. We can exchange, you know, thoughts, uh, or ideas, you know, together as well. So feel free to do so.

Okay, great. Okay, couple of rapid-fire questions. If your book was deleted but you could leave the world with just one simple message from it, what would that message be?

Live your life.

Live your life, or what? What happens if you don't live your life?

Oh man, that's world-class. So seriously, and, um, having that, your core values and thoughts, that's what I meant by live your life. And then oftentimes we've got a lot of noises and influences and stresses, so you sway, you know, back and forth. But stick to your core values and, uh, what's important, you know, for you.

Okay, next question. Uh, will you be writing another book in the future?

Yeah, I'm actually— I'm writing, uh, um, stories right now. So I finished, uh, 20th in a one, but maybe, maybe in the future. But I continue to write, uh, capture my thoughts.

So will it be, uh, like another format like this, like 52 Reflections?

I don't know yet, but, uh, it appears to be that way at this moment, uh, but So we'll see what happens.

All right, nice. Well, James, if you could go back in time and tell— now I'm 31 years young— so if you could go back in time and tell your 31-year-old self one piece of advice, what do you think that he needed to hear at that time from you?

So I think I mentioned it early on, but, uh, experience as much as possible. Don't be afraid of jumping, jumping into the water. So when I look at myself when I was, you know, 31, I think I was worried about so many things. What if this happened? What if that happens? And so I didn't experience as much as possible. I experienced probably more than other people, but I should have, could have done more. So at your age, experience more, as much as possible.

Yeah.

But don't be afraid.

So, yeah, I talk sometimes with my friends about this. It's like life, life has given me really everything that I've asked for. And yeah, I've made a lot of mistakes as well, but none of them have been permanent or like really that destructive. And so that means I'm playing it a little bit too safe, I think.

And but also, like, at the same time, uh, you're in a really great, you know, place and reading books and interacting with, you know, different leaders and stuff. And then you're getting a lot of stuff, you know, from other people through this, you know, format. So I'm kind of jealous.

I, I tell people all the time I have the greatest job on the planet. I get paid by the world's smartest people to learn from them. Not me though.

Not, not, I'm not smart.

So, I will. Yeah. You know, there are a lot of great lessons in here. There really are. Uh, well, listen, James, thank you so much for the conversation today. I really appreciated it. And, uh, you know, by the time that this podcast goes live, this is to the audience. You can go check out some of my further thoughts on The Leader's Soul on Instagram, and we'll link some of those in the show notes below too.

Hey, thank you very much. I really enjoyed the conversation, and I really enjoyed your candid questions. So thank you very much.

Thank you. Okay.