Life-Changing Books Episode 35. Dr. John Jaquish: Author of Weight Lifting Is a Waste of Time

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to episode number 35 of our brand new podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, I interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and to live better. In this episode, I have the pleasure to switch things up a little bit. We're normally in the business and entrepreneurship space, personal development, self-help. We're going to move over into health and wellness. with Dr. John Jaquish. John began his experience in life sciences after being told by his mother that she had been diagnosed with osteoporosis. So like a good son, in an effort to help his mother, he actually created a device that has now been placed in over 300 clinics worldwide that helps people diagnosed with osteoporosis. Osteogenic loading has now helped over 30,000 individuals with their bone health. And Dr. Jaquish is currently advancing osteogenic loading research and speaking worldwide about its implications, as well as developing other biotechnology devices and products that will aid in the advanced health and wellbeing of people all over the world. So he's a super cool guy, super accomplished. But today our conversation is all about his brand new book, Weightlifting Is a Waste of Time, with a subtitle that reads, So Is Cardio, and There's a Better Way to Have the Body You Want. So, I had a little bit of pushback against this book. I didn't think I wanted to read it because it essentially promises to replace the gym. Now, this podcast was recorded a few weeks ago, and since its recording, I have officially quit the gym, and I was an avid gym goer. I love the gym for a lot of reasons, and I am now using John's X3 Barre product. This is not a paid advertisement. I am a genuine user of the products now, and I am loving it. You can stay updated on my progress through Instagram, but without further ado, please enjoy this amazing conversation with Dr. John Jaquish.

Changing Books Podcast today. How are you doing, man?

Nicholas, thanks. I'm doing great.

Yeah, I'm excited for our conversation. So you are the author of Weightlifting Is a Waste of Time, So Is Cardio, and There's a Better Way to Have the Body You Want. That is a very aggressive title, and I'm so happy to have you on the show to address some of these things today.

Well, I'm an aggressive guy. Also, I'm correct. So yeah, back it up in the book. Anybody reads the book, you know, the people who hate the book are the ones who just looked at the COVID and they got mad. But, you know, fools like to think they have all the answers.

Yeah, they do. Well, one thing about books is I've learned the more I read, the less I actually know about the world. So I'm excited to talk to you because you actually do have some of the answers today. What is your background?

Can you tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are?

Yeah, I, uh, developed a medical device, uh, a little over 10 years ago that treats osteoporosis. And I developed it specifically for my mother because she had osteoporosis. And osteoporotic fractures have a death rate similar to breast cancer. So it's like a serious thing. It's not as dramatic because what happens is you fracture a hip, uh, you go— the hip's where you really don't want to have a break. And then it can't heal right because you don't have enough bone mass. There's not enough material. Also, they can't do an implant because it's like screwing into rotten wood. Like, they can't get an implant in there to replace what was broken. And then you're bedridden for a long time. You get pneumonia or you get bedsores, and there's— and then, you know, you ultimately die. There's a 50% chance of death within the year that you receive a fracture if you're over 50. 50% chance over 50. That's terrifying.

Yeah, it is.

It's a really big deal. And people have fragility fractures all the time.

Yeah, that's tough. And so you entered the fitness industry because of this, kind of, and I'd love to hear the story a little bit now. But before we jump—

I don't think of myself as being part of the fitness industry at all.

I never have.

I mean, it's what industry?

Yeah.

It's pretty much just a bunch of sideways hat clowns just screaming misinformation that they think is right, that they heard from some guy at the gym or whatever.

And a lot of the research never makes it to them. Like for example, there's 40 years of research that shows very clearly that cardio is like the worst way to lose body fat. Yet you talk to a personal trainer and they're like, Cardio is for losing body fat. Like, just what?

Like, you know, there's, there's that line in the book about like, if their salary depends on it, then they're never going to understand it or something like that.

Right. Uh, I mean, I suppose there's, there's some other reasons. Um, you know, there's not a lot of incentive. Like, ultimately the business model of the gym is they're selling you a building full of stuff. that you think is valuable, but you only think that. It's maybe not necessarily. If you want to be a marathon runner, you got to run.

You got to do cardio.

There's no way around it. But also, you're chronically upregulating cortisol, and that's forcing you to lose muscle, and it protects your body fat. So it keeps you fatter longer, which last I checked, most people who work out, that's the last thing they want. So I, I always see like guys who do— they're like, oh yeah, I do my strength training and I do like an hour of cardio. And I'm like, you, you're undoing everything you just did. Don't do that.

And I've been a victim of doing that for a long time, by the way.

Yeah, yeah, like that's what we were told. Like when I was a kid, uh, I heard that, you know, when I forgot my gym membership when I first got my Yeah, I first got my driver's license. I was 16, and all I wanted to do was go to the gym.

That's all I cared about.

And I heard these things, and I kind of thought like, hmm. So you get blood in the muscle. It's recovering the muscle. Muscle swollen, and then you go and do cardio, and you immediately evacuate that blood. What if that blood is there for a reason? Like I asked myself that question at 16. So I just I kind of always thought like this is not. Really working anyway. When I developed that medical device, it was very clear that people could handle tremendous forces in the impact-ready range of motion. But this was force that was way above. Like I had elderly, deconditioned, postmenopausal women that. were putting 600 or 700 pounds through their hip joints voluntarily. That's what they would compress the joint to and, you know, it's like, that's like incredible! Like, people can't put that kind of force typically through anything with standard weightlifting equipment. So I just came to the conclusion when I looked at the difference between the weaker range, the mid-range and the stronger range. First of all, it's not linear. There's a curve, and that curve gets real steep when you get to that 120-degree angle. You know, like, like for those watching, like right here, that the 120-degree— if I'm pushing away like this, that's an incredible amount of force I can create at the end, almost end of that movement. As soon as you get to the end, the muscle actually shuts off.

A lot of people don't know that either.

So yeah, I read in the book then you're relying on bone most of the time.

Yeah, and it's not of osteogenic levels anyway, so you're really just wasting your time. So yeah, I came to the conclusion— I'm looking at this data, and I also knew I was the only one in the world that had this because there's never been a test that's quite like that. And so while looking at the data, I'm like, I, I data that shows that weightlifting sucks as a stimulus and we can come up with something better with a strong degree of variance, but it has to be the appropriate degree. So like, there have been studies that were very favorable, uh, where there would be weights and bands on the bar as well, and people would have like X amount of weight at the bottom and then, you know, like 1.2X at the top. But nobody tried to figure out what level of variance was appropriate, and that's the information that I had. So I developed a device accordingly. The variance is provided by latex, not petroleum rubber, which a lot of band products, they use petroleum rubber. It's about 1/10 the cost, but it also stretches out, so the band gets longer every time you use it. Latex doesn't do that. that. So, so yeah, I mean, I, and I looked at the market and there's rehab bands like TheraBand, which is great, but that's also really geared for therapy because those go to like, I think the heaviest TheraBand is like 14 pounds at maximum stretch. So that's not a strength workout for anybody. So I, I just like, at first I thought I was gonna write—

write a book about bands and that was gonna be it. I was just gonna like, okay, I'll get royalties from the book.

But, um, then I quickly realized like you need hundreds of pounds. One thing that people semi-understand is when you want strength, there's no getting away from heavy. Like you can't lift light. And get stronger.

Just doesn't happen.

So you want to get as heavy as possible. So what I was going to come up with was, was a strategy to get as much force through the muscle and not risk injury, or have the risk be absolute minimum, because there's a risk to anything. You know, people fall off their bicycles. So, you know, like, things can happen. But That's, that's where X3 came from. So I knew I needed a bar. Like, the bands got so heavy in order to make them effective in the way I knew they needed to be that if you use— like, if I use the band that I normally chest press with and I threw it around my back and just, you know, wrapped around my hands, just try to do a push-up, I'd probably break my wrist because it's 540 pounds. That is twisting my wrist around at 540 pounds.

Like, you can't do that.

That wrist joint is not designed for that. And same thing with the ankles. If I try and do a deadlift, my deadlift is 615 pounds with the X3, I'd break an ankle. The ankle does not like lateral force. The NFL players that I work with, they're very familiar. Lateral force in an ankle.

Now. Yeah.

So, so that's, that's where it came from.

And you have a little bit of a business background or innovation in your blood, huh? Your dad worked on the lunar rover and he has 300 patents in his name.

So it sounded like when you were presented with this challenge for the osteoporosis originally, your default was like, let's, let's find a solution here rather than rely on the typical treatments at the time, which had a lot of side effects and downside.

Really, like, my dad's an interesting guy. Like, when I went to undergrad, I was like, I wanted to do pre-med. He says, no, I'm not paying for that. Like, okay, why?

He goes, you know, you don't—

what he said was, you don't have patience for patients.

Hmm.

And he said, you know, you can't do that. And I said, okay, okay, like kinesiology? And he was like, no, not that. And I said, well, what will you pay for?

Business.

That's the only thing?

Yep.

Okay, that's what I'm majoring in. It's cool 'cause I was more interested in playing rugby and joining a fraternity than really anything. So yeah, it was good times. Good times were here and like school was like right here. So yeah, I ended up having a great time majoring in business. And then later on, My dad's a very stoic guy.

He waited like, you know, four years to tell me this.

I was like, okay, I want to go to grad school.

He goes, great, get your MBA.

I'm like, that's not really what I had in mind. He goes, well, you want me to pay for it, right? And I'm like, what? Why are you so? He goes, look, I spent my best, most productive years making, you know, creating value for organizations like NASA or Raytheon or or.

TRW.

Have you ever seen The Falcon and the Snowman?

That's a really interesting company.

And that was a true story, by the way. The, you know, he made a lot of money for the shareholders, but, you know, it was only later in life.

I think he started his first business when he was like in his early 50s, and he goes, you gotta, you gotta figure out the money thing. Because you, you— that's way more important than— he goes, the science things, you're already annoyingly analytical, which is funny coming from him because so is he.

Mm-hmm.

But he's like, the business is like, understand how you're going to monetize something. That's everything. In fact, there are plenty of inferior inventions Like, look at Betamax versus VHS.

Betamax was better, but we went with VHS because it was marketed better.

How many people had AOL, like the worst internet service provider ever?

And they were the biggest. It was because of marketing, because of their business. Now, uh, everything changes over time, so You know, but it's just like, figure out how you're going to monetize what you're doing. And that was a huge service to me. And then finally, when I went to get my PhD, I got a full-ride scholarship. So didn't have to ask the old man for that. But he was like, you know, you did exactly what I wanted you to do. You figured out how to make money. And it's really a matter of just for the entrepreneurial minds that are listeners of your show, The, this, the model is just creating value. It's like I can create a $550 product that's better than a $5,000 home gym, and you can put it in a backpack and walk away with it. You can use it outside, you can take it to the beach. You know, it's just, it's a more— it's, there's more value and then there's a better result, more value in the physical product, the experience, because it's just more usable. Like, I keep one in the trunk of my car. I have a couple of my ads where I just like pull my Lamborghini to the side of the road, you know, and it's some great vista point, and then do like a workout right there. And I actually do that, uh, but you know, sometimes I bring, you know, girlfriend with me, she takes pictures. That lifestyle of like nobody's gonna stop me from my workout. Nobody's going to keep me from stimulating muscle growth. That was just kind of the message. And it really resonated with the busy professional, which, by the way, like at first we tried, we did some A/B testing with like bodybuilder type, you know, categories with our ads and they didn't do well at all. Like bodybuilding and weightlifting, they're married, and it's really difficult to break that. But what I did find out— so when working with the busy professionals, I started getting incoming calls from NBA strength coaches, from NFL players that are like, you know, joint injury is like the thing I worry about the most, and this thing looks like it'd be really easy on joints and I could actually get stronger. Because every NFL player will agree— well, I don't know about every, but almost every NFL player, everyone that I've talked to has agreed— the day they signed their contract with the NFL was the last day they got stronger. Because they're told like, if you hurt yourself while you're exercising, you're out. Like, that's just something stupid you did. So they start training a lot lighter because it's just like— Preserve right where you are and pray you don't get injured on the field. But X30 changes that. They can have very little joint risk and they can get incredibly more powerful.

Well, I'm the, I'm the perfect customer for X30 because I travel a lot. I'm always on planes or in the car moving around doing crazy things, and I've also been injured overloading joints in the gym a few times. You know, I've herniated discs back squatting for ego in college, and I've done all that kind of stuff. And so, uh, you, you've definitely created a product that the fitness industry doesn't like because you're taking people out of the gym and putting them in the home. You're getting 3 times muscle growth in 10 minutes versus 2 hours at the gym.

Right.

And, uh, yeah, it's very untraditional. So I love kind of the business mind that sits behind it. As well as the— it's not arrogance.

I know you said before we jumped on that sometimes people say, hey, you're arrogant. Like, it's swagger, you know.

I have— I just have haters, and usually it just boils down to they're, they're mad they didn't think about it. Man, it's not their business. Well, you know, I also worked on this for a long time, uh, got a couple degrees, and, you know, first 4 years I was working on the bone density product, I made nothing. You know, and actually I lost money because I was funding the development of the product. So, you know, everybody's mad at the successful guy, but it's like they're not willing to acknowledge the risk that was taken to do it and the sacrifice that was taken to make it all happen. Like, I had to throw a lot of my own money at it. And then, you know, the first invention and then X3, I was the only one who had used— me, Dave Asprey, Tony Robbins. There was a couple, couple people I had tested out and, uh, you know, they all liked it, but I'm like, well, would you want to market this? And then, you know, just license the technology from me. And I went to a bunch of different fitness companies and everybody said the same thing. Everyone's like, oh, you don't want to make a scientific argument to a fitness audience.

Those people are idiots. They can't understand science.

And they were right. Like the, the fitness kind of market, um, you know, uh, what can I say? Or, or maybe it's just that like most people who are spending time on social media who happen to like that, uh, just, you know, I don't know, they, they can't break out of their own paradigm or, or whatever. And I, I— Jordan Peterson, I know you're a fan.

of Jordan Peterson.

Uh, he says that there are 12— 12% of the human population is only professionally qualified from an intelligence standpoint to push a mop. And, uh, I was, I was like, wow, like, that's incredible. Like, the guy doesn't get his stats wrong, so I didn't question him. I just thought, like, I wonder where all these people are. And then I went to bodybuilding.com and I found them. Yeah, um, just like nonsensical stuff, like, and no interest in a scientific understanding. A lot of, a lot of times guys will post a study and they'll misread what it's really about. Like, they don't understand the words. Like, one, one recently, I, I was talking about, uh, the metabolism of the human body And I forgot what the actual issue was, but it was sort of like, yeah, that's not how, you know, metabolic rates work. And somebody posts a study about like, like atomic metabolism. It's actually an incorrect use of the word in a study. And I'm like, you don't even know what this is about. Like, it was like messenger— no, it was messenger RNA. And they use the word metabolism, and I'm like, just because it says metabolism, it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's talking about how many sandwiches you eat. Like, there's a lot of things that have a metabolic rate, but it just blew my mind. Like, wow, like, who ties your shoes for you? You know, like So ultimately, uh, and you know, a lot of these people mean well, they just don't understand how to read science. And also, academic research is written for professors. It's not written for the regular audience. But the fitness industry, which like I said, I don't even really think that's a thing, uh, it's more like a sales entity of big box gym memberships for equipment that you don't need. But, or you could say it's, in fact, the CEO and founder of a huge, like one of the world's biggest fitness chains says to me, I sell memberships to a nightclub with treadmills.

That's a funny way to put it.

Not about fitness. He says, it's just where pretty people decide to go. And they also, and we were in conversation about scientific stuff.

And he goes, you do realize like nobody cares, right?

Like they're sold on cardio and weights. Why try and reeducate them and sell them something they don't think they want? And, you know, my business mind was like, right, like you gotta get to people that really understand that they're going through something. to create a result. And that something has got to be the most efficient process. And that's why as soon as we started targeting busy professionals, like, we got inbound stuff from professional athletes all over the world. You know, you've probably heard of some of them. Uh, so yeah.

You mentioned, you mentioned Dave Asprey before. I'm a, I'm a fan of his work. I've read a few of his books. He actually reached out recently, um, to work with us to promote a book that's coming out in a couple months. And so you said you— he was the first one to try out the X3, first person outside of the business.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Yeah, he did great with it. Uh, and in fact, uh, he was my first podcast. It's kind of funny, it's like one of like the top podcasts.

It is.

Yeah, Bulletproof Radio or something like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, both are friends. Yeah, uh, and it was great. Uh, it's still— fortunately I didn't say anything that was inaccurate or something like that because obviously I've learned a lot more, uh, since launching it. Like, I didn't even have the nutrition side of it quite figured out when we launched, uh, because I really didn't want to say like eat meat, nothing else. Like everything else just is kind of poor quality food. Uh, you know, I thought that was a really controversial message, and the longer I've been doing it, the more I realize it's really— it's just nutrition. Like, where—

Let's dive into that for a minute. By the way, Jordan Peterson, who we've talked about a couple times, his daughter, I think she hosts a podcast that's all about only eating red meat. And so I've eaten red meat my entire life, and I know a lot of people say that it's bad for you.

I actually went to Argentina once for 5 weeks, which is like the beef capital of the world, And I ate red meat every day for like 35 days in a row and felt great.

So, you know, it kind of goes against what you hear in popular media nowadays.

Totally.

Let's dive into that a little bit.

Why do you eat a ton of red meat every single day for your one meal? Hello, Book Thinkers family.

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So I wanted to find something that had no conflicting research around it as a basis for deciding what the best nutrition program would be, you know, because like you can read, you know, there's 2 sides. Like there's like veganism is wonderful, you're gonna live a long time, and, and, you know, sponsored by Kraft or Nabisco. Kraft and Nabisco know that vegans don't eat kale smoothies. They have cookies and crackers and candy bars.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and, uh, you know, carbohydrates, uh, like wheat grain, it's literally cheaper than dirt, and they can put a couple hundred percent margin on a box of cookies And so what they want to do is convince people that it's healthy to eat all this crap. And I mean, they'll even put like chocolate chip cookies, you know, with extra fiber, and people are like, oh, it's healthy. Yeah, it's not healthy.

It's complete garbage.

And also, you need no fiber. That's like the amount of fiber you need to live a very long time is zero. Not that it's bad for you, it's kind of inert, it just goes through you. So it just kind of fills up your stomach, makes you bloated, and then, you know, nothing. Uh, so, so I wanted to find something that said, that said something that nobody could really argue with. So what I looked for was what makes people live the longest, and the 2 things that stood out crystal clear: high levels of strength and low levels of body fat. Are the 2 things that are seen in the physiology of those who live the longest, and they had that most of their life. So it's like, okay, if I want a more concise or backed up point to make about nutrition, let's start there. Living the longest. Obviously, it's, you know, there's no disease. Like, if you live the longest with a certain nutrition program, well, then it certainly doesn't cause cancer because that makes you live shorter, not longer. So, and the same goes for every chronic disease. And so, uh, it was very obvious. Like, how do you get— how do you get stronger? Well, there's, there's really only one thing.

It's animal protein.

And plant protein is usually 9% usable by the body. Because it's all the wrong, you know, amino acid ratios for humans. It's great if you're like a gorilla or a goat, but we're not. We're people.

We're different.

And so real quick, we have really small intestines.

For everybody that's listening, what do you mean by usability of protein? Because your book is the first time I had ever realized that there was a usability What's the digestibility rate, you know, like absorption percentage for a protein?

So different foods have different protein foods, you know.

I mean, you can even put like peas and broccoli in that category.

I mean, they're at the bottom of the list, obviously. There's protein in them, but— and there might even be higher levels of protein, but how usable is that protein? So we need a certain, like, certain ratios of essential amino acids. There's a reason we call them essential, because we need them. And the rest of the amino acids— there's about 21 amino acids that the body needs to make a protein. 8 of them are not made by the body. You need to consume them.

The rest of them are made by the body, so you need to worry about them at all.

Uh, so You want to eat things that are higher in those correct ratios, and that just so happens to be like meat and eggs. Eggs is like the, the highest thing at— I think it's 48%. I mean, human breast milk is at, I think, like 52%, because a lot of that's carbohydrate. But Because it's, you know, make a child grow. So the biochemistry of an infant is kind of irrelevant in the scope of things. I just don't want any confusion on that point. So when you look at that usability, you can measure it by nitrogen secretion. So if you don't use the protein you have, uh, when you urinate, you can see there's a lot of foam in it, you know, really high levels of nitrogen. That means you're wasting your protein. Or you ate something that had a lot of unusable protein. So, um, that's, that's kind of how that works. And there's a lot of research that backs that up. And so it was like, okay, meat, eggs. Now eggs have a lot of fat in them. So you can store fat as fat. You can store— you definitely store— all you do with carbohydrates, unless at a very low level, is store them as fat. And then you can't store protein as fat. You go into thermogenesis if you have too much protein, so your body temperature goes up. So like, for example, I keep my, my place, my house at 63 degrees.

That's cold for most people.

Not for me though, because I always go a little bit over 1 gram per pound of body weight of quality protein. So that I'm always— when I'm eating, because I don't— some days I fast, and so then I ignore that. But— and I get, I get cold on those days. But when I'm not fasting, it's high-quality protein over what I need, because I'd rather go into thermogenesis than miss out on potential muscle growth.

It all makes total sense to me. The last thing, because I know that we're gonna have to wrap up in a couple minutes, the last thing I wanted to ask you about, you just mentioned it, is fasting. I think a lot of people in the audience, they're interested in fasting. I know that I am, and I've done intermittent fasting for a while.

I've done 24-hour water fasts a few times, but something that I thought was super fascinating in the book is that new science is stating that at 72 hours you can actually kind of re-up your immune system.

White blood cells die.

Could you talk about that a little bit?

Because I thought that was fascinating.

Total renewal of the immune cells in a 72-hour fast. Coincidentally, that is how long I'm fasting, uh, 72 hours.

So really, like Sunday night, one meal of the day, dinner, all the way to Wednesday night.

That's what I do every week.

And you still work out while you're fasting?

Yeah, I feel fantastic.

Yeah, it's great.

The people that don't feel like they don't have energy, they're not in ketosis, which means they're dependent on glucose, so they have to constantly eat glucose-based stuff. So, you know, um, you'll never get there by doing that, which is why I tell people not to. Um, probably one of the things I'm most hated for, other than just being successful— actually, that's the thing I'm most hated for. Just jealous losers kicking and screaming. Uh, but it's that, you know, I tell people like, you can't eat carbohydrates and expect anything other than— there is one good way to use carbohydrates. It has to do with cellular hydration right after a workout. Uh, but really they add no value. And the amount of carbohydrates you need to live a perfectly healthy life is zero.

So they're not even a macronutrient.

They're misclassified. There's only 2 macronutrients. There's fat and there's protein. That's it. Carbohydrates are kind of a nice thing to have, which coincidentally, uh, show up at the— typically at the end of the warm season before the winter.

So there's an advantage for animals to consume carbohydrates and get as fat as possible. So like bears, for example, will give themselves type 2 diabetes at the end of the summer so they get as fat as possible. Sort of like, why would the body have sort of a gear it shifts in to amplify fat storage? Well, because carbohydrates are available and they're highly addictive, which gets animals to eat them. But then because of seasonality, they disappear and you have excess body fat. As everybody knows, you eat a lot of carbohydrates, you get fat, and then you have that adipose tissue to live off of. Like, you can fast the whole winter and just live off of that. Or, uh, it also, it also keeps you warmer. Like, obese people have a better survival rate in extreme cold. It's a fact. So they— carbohydrates exist to get you as fat as possible as quickly as possible. It's really, that's really what they're there for. Other than, and I told you, like endurance athletes can use carbohydrates, uh, and then there's a way to hydrate cells and cause hyperplasia, which is splitting of the muscle cells. But there's a very specific protocol, and that was, uh, you know, that there's— I think there's 30 pages of the book that are about hyperplasia. Um, So other than those 2 things, just no value.

Well, I love the point about the bear. I've told a couple of people about that.

I'm like, that's why there is a scientific reason to get fat and why diabetes is triggered through eating a lot of carbs like that. But then I've also used the, you know, a marathon runner or somebody who's running after they work out and it pumps up the cortisol.

It's because of the fight or flight.

Like your body thinks that you're running from something and You know, like, forget about muscle growth, we gotta go. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's, it's very interesting. Well, thank you for coming on the show today. I'm excited to come visit you and ride around in the Lamborghini, and we could take workout videos. And, uh, so I'll have to let you know if I'm ever out there. But that, uh, you live a cool lifestyle, man, and I love how you just, you target this, this fitness industry, that this group of salespeople, and, uh, you call them out. So I really appreciate your time today.

Yeah, thanks, Nicholas.

It's great.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this week's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. To discover more books, more mentors, and more resources that you can use to achieve more and live better, make sure you check out our website at www.bookthinkers.com. There you'll find links to our mobile application, more podcast episodes, our shop so you can get some Book Thinkers swag, and our socials. With that, I'm signing off and I'll see you for next week's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books.