Life-Changing Books Podcast Episode 45. Chris Guillebeau: Author of The Money Tree

Well, Chris, thank you so much for joining the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you doing today?

Nicholas, I'm great, man. Thank you so much for having me on.

I'm very excited for our conversation. As we talked about, I've read 4 of your books so far.

That's amazing.

Today, we're going to talk about The Money Tree. But before we do, could you introduce yourself to everybody in the Book Thinkers audience?

Yeah. Well, what's up, everybody? Thanks for listening today. I am an author, not surprisingly, since I'm on this amazing podcast. Also a bit of a traveler, entrepreneur. I kind of learned at an early age that I was unemployable, really not very good at working for other people, but kind of motivated. Like, I like to work. I just didn't want to work for other people, basically, or other companies. And so I kind of found my own way. I started little projects and such, you know, when I was 18, 19, you know, 22. I spent about 4 years living in West Africa as an aid worker. That really informed a lot of my life and thinking and also gave me this love for travel. Eventually came back to the States and was still doing some business stuff, but I began this quest to go to every country in the world. And that also kind of changed my life because I started doing that and started blogging about it. I started this blog called The Art of Nonconformity way back in 2008. And, you know, ever since then, it's like I've been— I chronicled that quest for a while. I finished that quest, you know, on my 35th birthday in 2013, started writing books and hosting events. And I have a daily podcast now that I do as well. So just feel very fortunate that I can connect with just some really cool people out there.

Well, I'm fortunate that we have the opportunity to connect because I'm sort of following a similar path, a path that you've kind of laid out as far as travel goes. And now I'm in this industry as well. So before we jump into some conversation about the book, I do want to go a little bit deeper into the travel. So what initially inspired you to take that AIDS trip over to West Africa and spend 4 years? What was that initial inspiration?

Yeah, I mean, I had traveled a bit as a kid. My mom married this guy who was in the Air Force, and he was stationed in the Philippines for a couple years. So I had some formative years in Asia. It was good for me. And I'd done some other travel in China, a couple other places. But going to West Africa, Sierra Leone specifically, Um, is where I went for about a year at first. And, uh, it was like a post-9/11 experience. It was like after 9/11, I was just feeling kind of discouraged and depressed like a lot of people and trying to find a way to contribute something. I felt pretty, pretty, you know, lucky and blessed that I had been able to find a way to make a living for myself, you know, through selling coffee on eBay and other random stuff I was doing at the time. I was like, I have a pretty good life. I can do this. And play music in the afternoon, play video games at night, whatever I want to do. But I really want to contribute to something that's a little bit bigger than myself. So, I got online, I read about this doctor, this surgeon from California who had been spending, I guess at that point, maybe 18 years or so in West Africa on a hospital ship. And I thought, if he can do it, if he can do that for like 18 years, give up that amazing life that he had, well, I can do something. And so, Applied and then spent 2 years and it turned into 4 years. And so I just feel, I feel really good about it because it wasn't a sacrifice at all. Like it was definitely something that, that helped me and transformed, you know, my situation in lots of ways.

Yeah, absolutely. And so a lot of people ask me about travel specifically because I spend a lot of my time working remotely and more specifically, people ask me about, you know, what are some types of jobs that you could set up for yourself in order to work that laptop lifestyle or the digital nomad life that, that's become popular nowadays? So, Could you go a little bit deeper into the eBay coffee and some of the other things that you were doing at the time?

I mean, it's so cool that it's mainstream now. I think it's great. But when I started, I didn't know anybody else that was doing it, and I'm sure they were. We just weren't connected in the same way that people are connected now. And this new website called ebay.com just came out when I was 19 years old, and nobody knew how online auctions worked. It was a totally new kind of thing. It was weird because it was a total seller's market for a while because it was such an interesting thing to buy something online from a stranger. And so you could actually, depending on the products, you could buy some stuff from the store, you could go to Target and buy something and then list it for sale online and somebody would pay more for it just because of the novelty effect. It wasn't that easy all the time, but there were lots of opportunities like that. And once I started just doing that, you know, randomly, I discovered like the first week I did it, I could make like $15 an hour. At the time, like I said, I was 19. And the other job that I had was working at FedEx in a warehouse in the middle of the night for like $8 an hour. And so it's like, well, this is better, you know.

Yeah.

And also, I didn't really know what I was doing. I was like, if I improve a little bit, if I learn something about copywriting and actually figure out where can I buy other stuff, you know, not just at Target, but where can I actually like find sources or products. And so it was an explore. It was like, you know, getting an MBA or something, but better, you know, because it was like all real world. And like, I could see the reward, the connection between what I did and what I received. And it wasn't, it wasn't just about money. It was actually much more about freedom. You know, I mean, I'm sure you connect with this too, with that lifestyle that you're choosing to pursue. It was very much about, I can choose, you know, where to invest my time and how to structure that and even build a whole life around it, you know, which is just like an amazing concept at the time. And it still is pretty incredible, even like all these years later. So that led to a bunch of other stuff, but that was the genesis of it.

Yeah, that's fantastic. I love hearing that story. Were there any books that, or are there any books that you recommend for people who want to pursue that kind of lifestyle other than The Art of Nonconformity?

I mean, you know, obviously, like I'm an author, I'm a big fan of books. We can talk about lots of books, but I recommend experimentation. You know, I recommend If you want to learn how to do something, you start by doing it. I think in terms of reading, you read as widely as possible. It's not so much like, here's the one go-to how-to book that you need to read. A lot of my life, it was influenced probably more by fiction. I know we're predominantly talking about nonfiction, but I was influenced by a lot of stories or nonfiction that didn't have anything to do with business necessarily. This biography of Tracy— or this biography of Paul Farmer written by Tracy Kidder called Mountains Beyond Mountains about this guy who's on a quest to bringing healthcare to Haiti and elsewhere. And I was just— I found it really inspiring. I was like, huh. And so there's a lot of stuff like that you can kind of take and incorporate in your life, even if it's something a totally different direction, I think.

Yeah, all great recommendations. And I appreciate you indulging my travel curiosity for a few moments. 193 countries, man, that is something to look forward to for myself. I've only just started that journey, but—

Okay.

I tell people that I aspire to do the same thing. I really do. I want to visit every place on this planet.

Okay. How far along are you so far?

Only 13 countries. I just started a couple of years ago. I'm 27. So there's a chance that by 35 I can hit it.

I really kicked in after age 30 or so. So it's good. You're on a good track.

I started my journey a couple of years ago. I did 5 weeks in Buenos Aires, Argentina by myself. And I was forced, I guess, headfirst into embracing discomfort and a language and a culture that I didn't understand. I didn't know anybody in South America, never mind Argentina. And after that, I was bit by the travel bug. And so now, I try to spend like at least half of my time on the road.

Oh, man. Good for you.

Well, I see a little bit of your early story in The Money Tree story. So can you tell everybody a little bit about why you wrote the book? I guess before you do that, I'll mention one thing. In the author's notes, you mentioned that you wrote this book to teach people a new way of thinking and to empower them to get rid of debt and have more control of their time and their freedom. So I'd love to have you expand on that a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, those values certainly come through. At least that was the goal. So the subtitle of The Money Tree is a story about finding the fortune in your own backyard. And it is a story. It is fiction, actually. I'm trying to teach something through it, but I wanted to do it in a way that's different from The $100 Startup or other books I've written or other entrepreneurial books even, just because a lot of people don't read nonfiction. They mostly read fiction. I was like, I think stories are very powerful. And so I just had this idea at some point. I don't even remember where it came from, but the idea of this guy who was trying to make it in life. He was a millennial. In fact, I think he was like 27 or 28. He was doing everything right. He was a hard worker. He had some issues like we all do, but he was trying to work hard, but he was in a lot of debt from student loans and his job wasn't very secure. Then that's also affecting his relationship and this stuff is all tied together. He's like, what can I do to get ahead? He realizes he can't just work a little bit harder. He has to somehow find a way to create a new source of income because that's what you really need to do is create wealth for yourself no matter what path you end up pursuing. And so he kind of sets off on this journey to do that. And he actually does learn how to buy and sell some stuff on auctions, online auctions. But then that's just kind of like the entry-level step. Eventually, he's learning how to truly create that life of freedom for himself. And much of the book is set in Africa as well. So that connects to some of my earlier experiences also. But yeah, my hope is that people will read it. And my hope is that people will always, with my books, read them and saying, Not just like, oh, this was a cool book, but like, this book changed me somehow, or this book helped me like get to the next level, or I've always wanted to do this, but I wasn't quite sure how. And now like I'm able to do that. For me, like that, that change is the whole goal is that kind of, that kind of motivation.

Absolutely. And I always say at the end of this podcast, I remind everybody that real behavior change is absolutely the goal. It's the priority for all of the books that we're talking about and the authors that we're interviewing on this show. Because if you're just reading these books passively and you're not changing anything, there's no difference between, you know, The $100 Startup and a video game.

Absolutely. Yeah, you might as well play games. You might as well play some video games.

Exactly. So I find a lot of value in The Money Tree and in that lesson that reigns through the entire book that you can do more than you think. I mean, that was my biggest takeaway. And I tend to, even though I'm doing a lot and I feel really good, I try not to let that reward cause dopamine because it's like, sometimes I have the tendency to fall back to where I'm comfortable and I don't think big enough. So what recommendations do you have for people that need to expand themselves and I guess need to think a little bit bigger?

Yeah. Well, I think we all do. I think that category is all of us. And I think if you stop thinking that way, that's when, you know, that's the dangerous situation. And so I, I always try to challenge myself in that way. And every book I've written, I've written for myself as well. And so I think also, that's a very simple concept of you can do more than you think. I mean, I think, Nicholas, like you're talking about your own life a little bit and some of the choices that you've made, what tends to happen is as you make these brave choices or bold choices, whatever they look like in your life, it just kind of unlocks something that comes next. And so if you look back, you're like, I never had a vision to do this really big thing. I had a vision to do one thing, and I did that. And then all of a sudden, the vision expanded. But you wouldn't get to that thing if you weren't doing whatever seemed big in the first place. So I guess for me, I never had that vision to go to every country in the world until I had spent some time in West Africa, which is a part of the world most people don't get to, or at least spend a lot of time there. But then as I did that, as I traveled more, I was like, oh, maybe I can get to like 100 countries. And as I got closer to 100 countries, I was like, well, why not try to go to all of them? You know, 'cause I can do more than I think I can, right? But if I, I never would've started with it if I'd been to like 2 countries and then like, okay, from 2 to 193 or whatever your goal is to start the business or something. You know, when I first started the blog, The Art of Nonconformity, also like first post, I was like, My goal for this blog is one day in the distant future, it'd be amazing if like 1,000 people read this blog. I think that would be huge, right? And now there's a lot more than 1,000 people that read the blog, but I never would've guessed that at the time. So the way that you do that is by doing stuff and you do the thing that's in front of you and you do the thing that's after that and it just keeps getting bigger. Not always bigger, but it gets more in-depth and more interesting. Yeah.

Well, for a college student, well, for a post-college graduate that has a lot of debt, kind of like the character Jake in the book, who wakes up maybe in their mid to late 20s or early 30s and says, I need to make some changes, and they're inspired to make some changes to make a little bit more money, there's a narrative that I'm curious about what your take is, which is that you should align a preexisting passion with a business idea. And so a lot of people have different opinions on that, and I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

Sure, sure. I think it's one of these tricky kind of things because ultimately in life, we are going to be most successful if we are excited about what we're doing. Like, this is true. Like, we're going to probably make a bigger impact on the world and have more profit and like whatever the metric is if we are doing something that we enjoy. And also life is short, you know, and there's lots of stuff that you could do. So why not do something you enjoy? But the trap is not everything that you enjoy is also going to be monetizable. And so to me, like what I've always tried to look at in The Money Tree and some other books too, is like, what is the intersection between these things? I think that's where you focus on what's the intersection between what I'm passionate about and what the world needs. You know, what my passion and something that's valuable and marketable to other people. There's probably a lot of stuff that you're passionate about and some things that you can do or you can build out in your life that could be marketable. So why not find something that fits both categories? And you can still have other passions, you can still have hobbies, you know, not everything you do in life has to make money, you can still play video games or whatever it is you want to do. But for that thing that you're trying to monetize, like, you know, the ideal world, I think, I think what we're all trying to get to is like when we do something that we really love, and it makes an impact on people, and we are rewarded for it, you know, so you keep thinking as you're making decisions and filtering and trying different stuff, am I getting closer to that? Or am I getting further away from that? And the closer you get, I think, the better you're going to feel, the better result you're going to have, and so on. So passion plus skill, maybe that's the last point, is if you're not sure, if the passion thing feels too woo-woo or something, or you can't get your head around it, then think about your skills. Because often those things are connected. We tend to be pretty excited about the things that we're also good about because we have historically devoted time to improving that. But we don't always think of it that way.

Yeah, no, it's a great point. And you said something that I've noticed. Well, actually, it was a theme in the book too, where somebody starts and they say, well, I'm passionate about, and then they make a pretty vague statement. And there's actually a line in the book that says, don't be vague. Tell people exactly what you're offering, why it will help them, and how they can buy it. And so that's a mistake that you see a lot of people making.

Yeah.

In modern-day marketing, you see it sometimes too. Like a van will drive by with some ladders on top, and it'll say like John and Sons with no phone number. And you don't even know, do they do roofing? Do they do do siding? Like, what is the business?

Exactly?

How do I get in contact? So that's a, that's a great lesson. Could you expand on that for a moment?

Sure. I mean, I think you said it pretty well. I think, you know, always thinking about how your offer is going to change your customer's life, your customer, your client. And when I say offer, I should probably back that up a little bit too, because I think a lot of new business owners or aspiring entrepreneurs, they think too much in terms of ideas. Ideas are grandiose or big picture, whereas an offer is like, here's this thing you can buy, here's how much it costs, here is the button on my website that you click to pay for it. And I actually think when you're beginning to think through different ideas, you think about offers. You think, how is this going to look on a web page? What is the call to action that I'm going to write that's going to persuade people to buy? And that just makes it so much more tangible. And if you can't, if you have a hard time, if your idea is like, oh, I don't actually see how to get to that, then you might have a bad idea. It might not be the right idea, actually. Maybe think a little bit more on that idea before you go too much further, because it has to translate into that really direct call to action if it's something that you want to sell.

There's actually another little test that you can use in the book called the Grandma Test. To gauge whether or not you have a good idea. So could you share that with everybody?

Yeah, so the grandma test, or it could be the grandpa test, let's say. It's, you know, can you explain your idea, you know, really simply in a couple of sentences to just about anyone? Okay. And so I used grandma in the book. I forget exactly how I set it up in that context, but I use grandma because sometimes people are talking about concepts that a little bit techy or just silly in detail, or they're so lost in the weeds that they think their idea requires a lot of explanation. Basically, even if it is a tech idea, even if it's some industry that you're not familiar with, there should be a way to explain that to just the average person. Again, if you can't do that, then you need to spend more time working on it, basically, because even complex ideas, the ones that are successful and really profitable, they can be reduced to a couple of sentences that No, I love it.

Yeah, it had been explained to me, I guess, in a previous life as explain it to a 5-year-old or something like that. How could you get a 5-year-old to understand the idea? And if it's too inappropriate or if it's too complex, then you need to change your idea up a little bit.

Yeah, I think the second— I forgot about the second part also is like, you know, Would you want to share your idea with your grandma? Is there something that you wouldn't want to tell her about for whatever reason? And if so, maybe that's not a great idea. If you're thinking through all the different things in life that you could do, maybe choose one that you can explain and you would.

Well, following along with some of the themes in the book, and I guess most of our audience is young entrepreneurs or young professionals, passive income, it's a big topic. Everybody's talking about it, passive income, how do you generate it? And there's a line I wanted to ask you about in the book, which said, Passive income, it's not just about real estate. And so why did you choose to include that? And is there a story behind that?

I don't know if there's a story. It's just, you know, when you think passive income, it's like, what's that game, Scattergories, or some other thing where you're like a word association? When you say passive income, so many people think real estate or they think rental properties. Yeah, like passive income, I need to go buy rental properties. So yes, that is a way, that is a thing that people do. It's also a thing that's pretty inaccessible to a lot of people. It does require capital. It does require a certain expertise. It's going to take a long time to be successful. Not everybody is successful in it. There's a lot of objections to it. Not everybody wants to be a landlord. There's so many concerns with it. Passive income, it's not just real estate. I've always been interested in digital assets and what can I create? What kind of website can I create? What kind of intellectual property can I create? Knowledge work, that kind of thing. That's something that anybody can do. It's very, very low cost. It's low cost. It's low risk. Everybody is an expert at something. That's something I believe very strongly. Everyone's an expert at something. Sometimes, it takes some time to extract what that thing is and then figure out how can I put that in the form of some sort of product or service. But passive income, most people who talk about passive income, they work pretty hard for it. They do a lot of active work to get to passive income. That's the other thing.

Yeah.

thing with that whole issue. But I think it's absolutely worth working toward. It's just there's a lot more options than just learning how to buy those rental properties.

Yeah. Passive income is important and so is just recurring income with whatever service you're offering. And you reinforce that in the book because the character Jake is in Ethiopia and he meets some people that I think make bread and then they started selling to a school that would buy the same amount each week and it was predictable. Having that kind of base lowers stress and it gives you the opportunity to expand. Those foundations are so great.

Predictable. That's the word. I mean, yeah, you called it there. I'd rather have a relatively lower level of recurring income than fluctuating income that could be really great, but I also am not sure what's going to happen next month.

And then you have another book that has ideas, right? Just startup ideas that helps trigger people to think of startup ideas. So what are some recommendations You talked about passion before, but what are some recommendations for people who are just generally interested in starting a business but have no idea what the next step is?

Yeah, no idea what the next step is. I think it's always good to experiment with selling something like reselling, you know, and I got my start by, you know, selling stuff around my house. And you can also, you know, go and look online and see what is selling, like download, you know, the Nextdoor app, download OfferUp, or Gumtree or whatever it is in your country or your region and see what people are buying and selling. And you should be able to, within a pretty short period of time, be able to make at least some amount of money through this process. And you're not going to get rich, but it actually is a lot of fun if you've never done it before. It feels really empowering. You're going to be learning these skills at a super fast level. And the first time that you make $100 or $50 or whatever it is, I guarantee it feels different than the paycheck you get. It feels so different, and it's going to inspire you to, to go on to do more. So start with that, you know, and then start thinking a little bit more. And simultaneously, maybe let's say let's start thinking about this knowledge economy, or about what is this thing that I could teach. And it may have something to do with your qualifications, quote unquote, your, you know, your degree if you have one, or what you've done for your career. Or it may just be something that you've kind been really interested in and have spent a lot of time learning about. And there's subcultures of people all over the world. We're connected now in this global economy that, you know, will pay for information and education, you know.

Yeah. This global economy is like a virtual village, which is the name of the company in The Money Tree.

That's right. I forgot about that. That's good.

Yeah. There's a quote I'd like to read. So it says, I'm just so glad to be alive during this time in history. It feels like there are an infinite number of things we could do. And more than ever, I sense how important it is to make the most of each day. And so mortality has been a theme in my life. It was also a theme in this book when Jake's mentor passed away in the book. What role has embracing your own mortality and sort of reminding yourself that we have limited time played in your life and your decision-making?

Man, I think about it every day. I think it's a very healthy thing. to think about death every day. And I know for some people, they're like, whoa, think about death. That's heavy. It's actually very motivational. You know, like, as you just mentioned, you're just like, okay, you know, this day that, that I have, I'm not going to get it back. And with money, money is replaceable, right? Like, I know we're talking a lot about money here. And like, I want to help people make more money. But the reality is, if you lose some money, you can get it back. But you can't get your time back, you know. And it's like the Bob Dylan thing about he not busy being born, he's busy dying next. So we're all kind of on this path. And you could be really discouraged by that. Or you could say, that's just the reality. Like, it's 100% of us. We're all in the same boat there. So what am I going to do today with the time that I have? What am I going to do tomorrow to set up options for however long that I do have? Hopefully make the world a better place, but also do something for myself while I'm here, rather than just kind of going through the motions and like— sacrificing myself to a cause I don't really believe in or care about. I think anytime we can make active choices is good.

My other big takeaway from that quote is just that there's a possibility really in front of all of us to make money doing virtually anything. Like you said, we're all interconnected and you can find your niche little target customer with relative ease nowadays on the internet. And so when I started Book Thinkers, it was very similar to this story. It was a total side hustle. I had a full-time position. And sometimes I think our hustle culture on Instagram or other social media promotes like, you need to get out of the 9 to 5 and into your full-time entrepreneurship mode and stand against the winds, against all odds. And it's like, that doesn't have to be the path for everybody. A side hustle is totally an acceptable way to live. So yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

I mean, my thoughts are, I mean, that's the reason I wrote that book, Side Hustle. I was kind of I was part of originating that phrase. I wasn't the only one, but kind of on the early side of it. And I wrote it because not everyone wants to be a full-time entrepreneur. And I realized I kind of had some of my own assumptions before because I'd always worked for myself. Like, for me, like I said, I was unemployable. Kind of realized, like, as I kind of go through life and talk with lots in my community, you know, first of all, there are good jobs out there. It is good, you know, good companies you can work for, good organizations you can be a part of. Also, you have different seasons in life, and maybe sometimes that's what you do for a while, and then you change. Not everybody can quit their job. People have responsibilities and families and mortgages and all that kind of stuff. Not everybody can do that for whatever reason or wants to, but it's also true, I think, that everybody needs to create their own security and be thinking about their own future, because even if you're working for a good company, that company doesn't care about you as much as you care about you. That's just So having more options is good. And I think the ultimate goal is to go to work, whether you're going to a company or you're working for yourself, the ultimate goal is to go to work because you want to do that, not because you have to do that. And if you get to that place, I mean, that's a great place to be, right? Because what employer wouldn't want you to have an employee who's like, I don't actually need this paycheck, but I really like working with this team and I like the work that we're doing. That's a very valuable employee. It's very good for you too, because if the situation ever changes in your life and all of a sudden now the job that you're doing job sucks or there's something stressful, I've got something else that I can fall back on. So a side hustle is good for all the reasons, basically.

Yeah. That flexibility has been so amazing in my life. And I can, you know, I'm blessed to have taken a position out of school with a software company and I really enjoyed my work. I was in sales and the skills that I was learning were very beneficial for anything that I wanted to do in life, just improving communication, I suppose. And it felt really good once the side hustle income was there to realize that if I needed, let's just say I hated the job, if I needed to If I had to pivot to a lower-paying job, but one that I enjoyed, it totally would have been possible. And I think that that's a flexibility a lot of people desire.

Yeah. Well, congratulations on getting there. You had to work for it. So that's great. And also what you've learned through all these things can help you with the next thing also. So yeah, good work.

I owe it all to these books. That is the truth.

A lot of people read books and don't do anything about it. So you can take some pride there. Go on.

We're here to change that. That's the Book Thinker's mission, I suppose, to make reading sexy again, but also behavior change. Awesome. So before we wrap up, just a couple of general questions. Because most of our audience is full of young professionals, is there a piece of advice or something out there that you just want to mention? You know, is there, is there a narrative that you're fighting against? Is there something that you don't think is okay with our current work culture? Is there anything that you want to mention in that area?

Yeah, that's good. I like that question. I would say for, for all of my work what I've been trying to put forward in one form or another, it's this message of you don't have to live your life the way other people expect. And throughout your life and your work, your relationships, every part of your life, you're going to encounter pressure to do things a certain way. And it's not always evil people that are pressuring you. It's often people who care about you sometimes. They have their own preferences. Like they have things that they would prefer that you do, basically. And you're not a bad person if you pull back and reflect a little bit and say, actually, what is it that I want for myself? What is it that I want in my work, my career, my relationships, in my life? And I'm going to be a much better person actually in the end if I really find the essence of that and focus on that and give myself to that. And I just mentioned that because, as I said, there is tremendous, tremendous social pressure everywhere we go these days. We have like influencer culture. So it's not like even if you don't know anybody, like you can actually pick up your phone and be influenced by, you know, this imaginary fictitious world, essentially. So do whatever you can to think for yourself. Yeah.

Society's box and that fake set of rules is— it's pretty heavy for a lot of people. And it was for me for a while. So. Books like The Art of Nonconformity, they help you break that apart and get rid of it. Now, you mentioned in the beginning, and I meant to ask you this, but I forgot. You mentioned in the beginning, actually twice, that you're unemployable. What do you mean by that?

I really would not be good in a company. I can't imagine what I would do. I mean, it's like when I was going to every country in the world and people were like, what are you going to do at the end of this? I was like, I don't think I'm going to go work for Citibank. I'm not sure what it's going to be. I don't know what's on the other side of it, but I just can't myself. I also have ADD. And so for any listeners out there with ADD, maybe you connect with this. If you are motivated to do something, you'll give 110%. But if you're not motivated, you give like 30%. So that doesn't work very well in most corporate settings. Sure.

Certainly understood. Last question before we wrap up and I let you go. We mentioned books. So are there any books that stick out as the most impactful in your life or pivotal books that you've read in the past?

Yeah.

Outside of the one that you mentioned.

Right, right, right. Let's see. What are some really good books? I'm trying to think, what have I been reading actually more recently that might be helpful? It's funny because I'm reading like 2 books a week and whenever people ask, what's your book recommendation? I'm like, I don't know. I don't read any books apparently. I need to be better So I mentioned Mountains Beyond Mountains. Man's Search for Meaning was really influential on me.

Mm-hmm.

Of course, I mean, it's a classic. But I think if you haven't read it, go and check it out. Like I said, I read a lot of fiction. A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving was a great novel. I think I read it 2 or 3 times. I just read The Three-Body Problem, which is a trilogy, a sci-fi trilogy by this Chinese author, Cixin Liu. I really, really liked that. That was one of my bigger reads of the pandemic era since it was like 1,000 pages. So, The Three-Body Problem.

In Man's Search for Meaning, there's an interesting metaphor where he basically says, what is the meaning of life? You can't answer it universally. That's like asking a chess player, what's the best move? I mean, it depends on the situation, the context, your opponent, and everything. And so, a lot of the recommendations that we talked about today, they're all for very unique circumstances. So, That influencer pressure is real. Don't feel like you have to follow in somebody else's footsteps. Don't let society crush you into what society wants you to be. So it's a fun way to end. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really liked The Money Tree. I liked your other books as well. So it was a pleasure speaking with you.

Awesome, man. Thank you so much, Nicholas.