Life-Changing Books Podcast Episode 46. Kara Goldin: Author of Undaunted

Well, Kara, thank you so much for joining the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you doing today?

Good. How are you? Thanks for having me.

I'm very excited for our conversation. Before we jump in and talk about your book, I'd love to have you introduce yourself to everybody.

So I'm Kara Golden, and I am the author of this book, Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. I'm also the The founder and CEO— I have all this product placement here today— of Hint Water. There you go. And lots of other Hint products as well, but that's our sort of core product is, is the water. And yeah, I mean, that, that's who I am. I live in the Bay Area in San Francisco. And what else? What else can I tell you?

Well, I thought we would start with sort of the introduction to your book, which actually states that you were the youngest of 5 children growing up and you found some value in that. So, I'd love to have you tell us about those early days and kind of what you were like as a kid.

Yeah. So, I grew up in Scottsdale, Arizona. I always joked that my dad was— we were living in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and I was a little, little kid, and my dad didn't want to shovel snow anymore, having 5 kids. And he was totally hassled by the idea of shoveling snow. And so he just said— I think he took a business trip to Scottsdale, and he was like, this is the way it's going to happen, and we're going. And so we moved there. There were only 100,000 people in like the Phoenix and Scottsdale area at the time, which is significantly different.

Yeah.

So that's why I call myself an original settler. But, you know, I grew up with almost like 2 families. I have a brother and sister that are 15, 16 years older than me, and then I have my sister and brother 2 and 3 years older than me, so much closer. But the other thing is, is that my mom hadn't worked for years. She was an art history major, and she hadn't worked for years. And then when I went off to kindergarten, she just decided, I'm gonna go to work. And And we were all like, wait, what? You're gonna go to work? And she said, yeah, and I wanna get into fashion. And I remember my dad being like, you know, happy wife, happy life. Sure, go ahead. You know, I mean, I guess so. You're gonna have all this time. So I mentioned that because I think just, I didn't get it at the time, but just being a role model of somebody who just figures out what do I wanna do today?

Yeah.

Right? And go and try. And she didn't know whether or not she was going to be able to be a buyer, or she ultimately ended up being kind of a personal shopper, which a lot of department stores kind of have today, but they didn't back then. She really sort of was one of the first that I knew. And my dad was, I call him in my book, a frustrated entrepreneur because he worked inside of a large company, ConAgra, But he was, he had developed a brand inside of originally Armour Company, and Armour Food Company was acquired by ConAgra, a brand called Healthy Choice. And so I share with my kids this all the time whenever they say, oh, you know, I gotta decide my major, I gotta decide, you know, what I'm gonna do with my life. And I'm like, can you imagine when my dad, was, you know, trying to decide at age 21, you kind of decided, or you thought you had to decide what you were going to do for the rest of your life, right?

Yeah.

Today, people switch all the time, right? It's actually a lot less stressful than, you know, it was, I don't know, whatever, 60 years ago to 70 years ago to do that. So, so yeah, I mean, I grew up in, you know, kind of an entrepreneurial environment, but also, understanding without even kind of feeling like my dad was teaching me this purposefully, that all the frustrations of being with a large company and how innovation was not really necessarily treasured, right? But instead, kind of, as long as it does well, it's fine. But, you know, if you fail— and I kept thinking as a kid, But what if— how can you actually know whether or not you're going to be successful if you don't just try and you don't fail a few times? And so I was always really inquisitive and asking kind of those questions and sort of scratching my head and getting answers like, well, that's a good point. I have no idea. So I never really even thought back then that even things that I was saying were ultimately leading me to become an entrepreneur. But I mean, that's what's fun about writing a book too, because there's so many stories along the way where you sort of catch your words in midair, right? As you're saying it and you're like, oh, that's how the dots connect. And, you know, it's fun. But more than anything, I mean, this book, I call myself an accidental entrepreneur, but I call myself an accidental author because this was my journal that I had been journaling for. gosh, almost 5 years ago now. And after a lot of the keynotes that I was doing across the country, people would have, you know, you have the Q&A session and people would not only ask questions, but also make big statements about entrepreneurs, like they're fearless risk takers and they never are afraid of anything. And I thought, huh, Like, I'm afraid of a lot of things. And I'm also, you know, I'm not sure whether or not it's called risk or someday stupidity, right?

Yeah.

Where you just figure, like, what the heck? What's the worst that can happen? And I've met so many great entrepreneurs that are very, very similar. And so there's so many learnings, and I've mentored a ton of people over the years, and I feel like not only through one-on-one mentoring, but also through these talks that I give. I'll get these DMs on social media, or people email me or see me, and they're saying, gosh, that thing that you said just helped me. And so I thought just by writing this book that I could help— initially I thought it was just entrepreneurs, but I, I feel like I've just heard from so many more people since this book has come out. I just got a phone call the other day from a public company CEO who I didn't know. And she reached out and said, hey, can I, you know, can we set up a call? I'd love to talk to you. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. And she said, I read your book and it was just so authentic. And so, you know, you went through so many challenges along the way. And she said, first of all, As CEOs, we don't talk about this stuff, and you talked about it, and I felt like I know you, and I feel like you're my friend, and, you know, you're not trying to solve everybody's problems. You're just saying, here's my journey. And she said, but I left that book, and I said, I not only want to meet her, but I also feel like I've— I'm not alone. And I was like, that's awesome. Like anytime you can do, I mean, how many times have people said to you, you know, you really helped me, right? Anytime you can be in a position where you help people, whether it's, you know, writing a book or launching a product like Hint or, you know, volunteering at a food bank or whatever that is, it's just awesome, right? I mean, you're doing something that makes you feel good. And so that was really the key for me on why I even decided to write the book.

Well, there are so many things that I want to unpack there. I love that you call yourself an accidental entrepreneur and an accidental author, but you've been very successful at both of them. And you just mentioned on the entrepreneurship side, the fear thing. So chapter 21 of your book, it reads, face your fears. And there's a quote that I'd like to read to everybody and have you expand on it for a minute. So it says, don't let anyone tell you that entrepreneurs are a special breed of human being, that they, unlike normal people, feel no fear. And the fear thing is really important because I get tons of questions from our community about fear. Hey, I'm too scared to start this. Hey, I'm too scared what other people are going to think. And they think that they're not built for entrepreneurship because they have those fears. And so could you just expand for another minute or 2 on why it's okay to feel the fear and why it's important to embrace it intentionally sometimes?

Yeah, I mean, really simply, everyone has fears, right? And if you don't own your fears, then you can't grow, right? You don't have anything to look forward to, right, in some ways, because you've gotta— I mean, those are your challenges, and no one wants to live with fear. So you just have to figure out what those things are that that ultimately are kind of, that you fear are standing in your way. 'Cause you're right, there are a lot of, I mean, fear is what stops us from moving forward. I mean, the number of people who have said to me, oh, I can't start a company because I don't have experience, or I don't, you know, I don't know what I'm doing, or, you know, or I have young kids and, you know, I can't do that. And I'm like— Well, you actually could. You could do it. You just don't choose to, which is fine too. But I think that the thing that blocks people is that not only do they— I think it's less about could they do it and more about feeling like they're embarrassed, right? That they might fail. And I think that, again, you know, the things when we look back on our life and things that we're most proud of, It's really those things that we didn't start by thinking that we were actually going to be able to do it.

Right.

So one of the stories in the book is the Grand Canyon. And while I had hoped that I was going to finish the Grand Canyon and I had trained for it, you know, you run into— you try and face your fears, but then you're gonna find that there's other fears along the way. I mean, I ran into a snake along the way. I, I never really Thought about being afraid of snakes, but having a rattlesnake in front of you, and you know you and basically hundreds of feet below you, you could die. I mean, it was it was a little scary, right? But what I find is that what I found then was that the more kind of challenges you set yourself up for, the stronger you become. And so it almost becomes this journey. of making sure that you put yourself into uncomfortable positions. Call it fear or call it uncomfortable positions. Uncomfortable positions, it's just a— it's a much nicer term, right?

It's easier to digest.

Yeah, but also just not putting so many steps in front of yourself too. And, and I was just talking to somebody about this this morning, that even getting our product on the shelf at Whole Foods for the first time. I mean, it sounds great. And then you actually have to execute on that. And I think I remember driving to Whole Foods that morning and I thought, I wonder if the guy's gonna be there. And then thinking, well, maybe I should turn around and go call him or email him. And then I thought, you know, I could do that. But then when's the next time I'm going to come back? I'm just going to go and I'm just going to see what happens. And sometimes if you do that, you know, you may— he might not have been there, but guess what? He was. And I think like that's the thing that you think about. Maybe I'm going to have failure, but maybe I'm going to have success. And you have to put yourself into these positions and, you know, again, just know that you're going to learn something. which I think is kind of the bigger thing and hopefully the point for my book for so many people, what they get out of it is that being a lifelong learner is what we want as humans. And yet we so often stop, you know, whether it's right after high school or right after college or graduate school or whatever it is. And we become, in this role of mentoring versus actually continuing to learn. And I think for me, I wanna learn every single day. I wanna, you know, some days it could be learning a new art project or it could be learning a new exercise or, you know, you talked about traveling earlier. And I think that I'm a huge, you know, travel junkie, right? And I think part of it is that I just, I wanna learn. Right? I want to learn about history and cultures. I read a ton. And so there's, there's aspects where you look back on your life and you're like, yeah, I got— I have that curiosity. But that is such an important piece in actually, you know, being able to go out and be an entrepreneur as well, is like that curiosity, but also that ability to just go try, even if you might fail, because you might succeed too.

Yeah, the discovery or the lifelong learning thing that we have inside of us, that's very important. And I'm happy that you mentioned it. You said that you kept a journal, and this book just feels like the opening of the doors for your journal. I think it's very important for a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners like yourself to go through the process of writing the book, because then we as aspiring entrepreneurs or people who aspire to be like you, or as successful as you, we have a better shot at doing so. We have more resources available. We have a better opportunity to understand your obstacles and how we can maneuver around them faster than maybe you did. And so it's great when somebody like yourself takes the opportunity to open up the curtains and let us all behind the show. It's fantastic. And we have a lot of young professionals in our audience. So when an entrepreneur like yourself decides to open up the early days, there's a lot of questions there. And another one that I had has to do with persistence. So you said that persistence was one of those core virtues that you kind of held close to chest when you were younger. No really meant maybe, maybe really meant yes. So I'd love to have you expand on that for another minute.

Yeah, I mean, again, being the last of 5 kids, I think I, I felt like, why do— why does my 15-year-old brother get to do things that I don't? I mean, that started when I was 3, right? That was like my first memory. And I just, I didn't understand. And so I just kept going and I kept asking my parents. And if you have that kid that just keeps asking, and finally my dad said that to me, he said, you know, Kara, in frustration probably said, the problem sometimes with you, Kara, is when you, you know, when I say no to you, then you hear maybe. And when I say maybe to you, then you just think you're gonna be able to convince me. And, you know, probably joking, probably somewhat serious in that conversation. But I think it's that persistence and that ability to kind of, you know, keep at it, I think, is another trait of being an entrepreneur. I was also an athlete growing up. I was a gymnast, but also a big runner. And, you know, I always tell people that being an athlete too, I mean, those skills are really important as well because, you you can't— I didn't just wake up and become an athlete, right? I trained. I, you know, I appreciated that there were other people who were better than me, right? And I would sit there and watch them and learn. And, you know, having sort of that experience as well, when you're, you know, sitting as a CEO, you know, I think that's something that I've done maybe a little differently, according to my employees, is really making sure that— I'm hiring people who are better than me, right? Very confidently. So I, you know, I'm like, you can learn from me, but I always want to hire people who know how to do SEO better than me, who know how to, you know, sell better than me, who know how to produce my product better than me. And, you know, as ironic as that is to, you know, sort of think about that, most people don't want to do that, right? And yet, if you don't hire people that you can actually learn from as an executive, then you run into this where you don't learn anymore. And the number of C-suite executives that I talk to, that many of them are my friends, especially when they start feeling like, you know, they're bored, you know, they're not challenged anymore. I always say to them, I'm like, you know, are you setting your environment up to actually teach you? They're like, what are you talking about? I'm the head of the company. I'm like, it doesn't matter, right? And it goes the same for managers. I'm always pushing on managers. I'm like, hire people They don't have to be better than you at everything, but they need to know something. Otherwise it becomes not very interesting, right, for you, because you're going to be sitting there teaching and mentoring, which is fine, but you have to be a little selfish as well and make sure that you're learning too.

So to continue down this learning path for just another minute, because this is the Book Thinkers Podcast and our audience, everybody's a reader. Reading. You say that you still up to this day try to, try to read for at least 30 minutes per day. So when did that habit start in? What initially got you interested in reading?

You know, I always— I, I think early on I was reading magazines. I was constantly reading magazines. And, uh, and then when I was, uh, I was actually working at a bookstore. My first, uh, kind of real job outside of babysitting was at this bookstore when I was 14 years old. And I— some days it wasn't that busy in the bookstore, and so I started reading more to suggest books to different people for gifts. So Shel Silverstein, and, you know, I just, I had it down like so that I could sell them on these things and tell them why. And, and then when I went to college, I started taking finance. And this is something I talk about a lot on college campuses that I felt like I was a journalism major. And journalism and writing was pretty easy, came, you know, not super easy, but it was easier for me. And then I had friends who were in finance and they'd talk about EBITDA and stuff. And I'd be like, uh, er, you know, it was like speaking Mandarin. I had no idea what they were talking about. And so I just decided I didn't want to be the most ignorant person in the room. And I started taking finance classes and they were really, really hard. And so, One of my professors said to me, you should pick up the Wall Street Journal. And I thought, I mean, I remember the first time I looked at the Wall Street Journal and I thought, I have no idea what this even says at all. And so I had to read it really slowly. And then I started looking up words along the way. And then also Fortune Magazine. Fortune Magazine was sort of like teaching me about finance, but kind of differently. And then I think after college, I just really started just reading about business leaders because I would— it's funny, one of the people that is actually an investor in Hint today, I didn't know her for many, many years, but I admired her. I had worked at CNN and everybody was talking about Ted Turner when I was working at CNN. It was like a late-stage startup, which is ironic to sort of think of how far it's come. But there was was this woman who had started another network called USA Network. And her name was Kay Koplowitz. And she was one of the few women in media who had actually started a network. And I don't know why, but I felt like USA Network was much harder to program because it wasn't just news. It was like a lot of— that was really going up against primetime and sort of soap operas. Like all day long, I thought, wow, that's just— it's just hard. And so then I ended up meeting her later, but along the way, I just kept reading about her. And there were books written about her. And I just— and by the time I ended up meeting her at part of EY's entrepreneur program, I remember just kind of smiling, sitting here saying, I know all about you. I mean, I don't think I've really been stalking you, but I actually know so much about your history and all the boards you've been on. And she's like, how do you know this? Did you know that I was going to be a judge here? And I said, no, I've just greatly admired you. And anyway, I bring this up because I feel like to get to know leaders today, I mean, the best way to do it is, you know, to read about them, right? And understand and— or listen to their interviews on a podcast, right?

Yeah.

And I think eventually, maybe you'll be fortunate enough to meet these people, and then you already feel like you've got a dialogue going with them that really helps you to build a better relationship.

Hey, it happens to me all the time. And funny enough, my reading journey started at the end of my college experience, sort of because of an insecurity that I had around understanding money. And so after reading a couple of books, I was able not only to contribute to those conversations, but I knew more than everybody else because in a college course you do learn, but you learn kind of slowly. Whereas if you pick up a couple of good finance books or books like Rich Dad Poor Dad or something like that, you could just accelerate your learning and condense decades into days. And as far as the mentorship thing, you had an early mentor in John McCain. So I'd love to tell— I'd love to have you tell the story how you ended up working for him in high school of all places, and maybe one or two of the lessons that you learned from him.

Yeah, pretty funny story. So I'm living in Arizona and it was You know, I just thought it'd be really fun. I mean, he was sort of an icon in Arizona, and I thought it'd be super fun to go and, and work for him. So I had seen a listing and heard that he was hiring interns, and so I went and interviewed. And it was, uh, you know, it was interesting because he said— I'll never forget, I interviewed with the staff before, and I got into the finals to interview, and he was interviewing me and said, so Why do you want to work for me? And I said, okay, so here's the thing. Nobody had prepped me for that question at all. And I don't know why it was like so surprising to hear. He was actually in the House of Representatives at the time, not even a senator. But I remember hearing him say that. And I said, okay, so here's the thing. My parents are Republicans, and I'm not sure if I am or not. And so I want to come and work for you. to learn whether or not I am. And he started laughing and he said— I mean, can you imagine like a high school kid saying this? I mean, it was just— and he said, that is the most honest answer I've, I've ever heard.

Yeah, it must have been so refreshing.

Yeah, and it was just, you know, I worked for him also. I went to Arizona State University and I, I worked for him, uh, on and off through college as well. And You know, it was interesting because I think that the thing that I learned about John was that he was just, you know, a super stand-up guy. I mean, on a lot of levels. I remember when Martin Luther King Day was recommended as a federal holiday and Arizona did not acknowledge it.

Right.

And I was you know, working for him, and, and we had a pretty small office. And he asked one day, I was walking down the hallway and I said, do you have a second? I just have a question. And he said, sure. And I said, so why didn't— why aren't we acknowledging Martin Luther King Day? And he said, Kara, there, there are things that, that you have to learn That sometimes you have to agree to disagree, and it doesn't mean that people are bad people. And I remember walking out of there thinking, well, I think you kind of suck, right? That you're not doing that, because it just seemed to me that it was just wrong.

Yeah.

And on a lot of levels, call it racist, whatever, it was just a— it was a lot. Right? And, you know, it was interesting because it always sort of sat with me. And then in 2012, he actually reversed that and said, that was one thing in my career that I was wrong about. And he— and so that was the thing too, where there were so many lessons learned. But I think that one in particular is that You know, I always believed until the day he died that he was a good guy, but sometimes people make decisions and say stuff, you know, that is wrong. But it— can they make it right? That's the bigger question.

Yeah, the agree to disagree thing I think is a very important lesson for all of us, to make sure that we don't get too upset or too angry at other people and that it's okay if we have different opinions sometimes. And as you read more books and diversify your perspective, that becomes easier to digest, but sometimes it's pretty tough, I think, especially at a younger age like that.

But that's— No, it's, it's huge. And even when I went, uh, I actually worked for the Obama administration to grow entrepreneurism. And, uh, we— unfortunately, John was very sick. And when I went in to meet with him and, uh, ended up meeting with members of his staff. But that's the thing. I mean, you know, how many times as a, you know, Democrat, do you get to go into somebody's office to actually talk to them about entrepreneurism? And I think for me, what the position that I was taking was that, you know, no matter what your party is, it's entrepreneurism is important. And it's a way to make the economy grow. And I don't, you know, he wasn't disagreeing at all. And so anyway. It's a— it was a super interesting time. And I think that that's the other thing about writing a book as an author, which is pretty crazy, is just thinking back on those years and also the tech years. I mean, I was there during the '90s. I've had so many of my friends that I worked with who read the book and they said, you know, we were just living it, but it's just So crazy, right? That like, remember Excite and, and all of these, you know, I mean, I remember when Microsoft was truly evil, right? On a lot of levels, like to Silicon Valley, that it was just like, if you, I mean, you, you basically saw the Death Star, you know, coming in when the Microsoft people came into the room. It was like, and now, you know, I think most people don't view Microsoft that way, but it was just, you think back on those times that you've lived. And, and I think you can learn a lot from those times, even if you weren't, and how people, why people have certain perspectives. So that's what reading does for me.

Well, you've talked a little bit about entrepreneurship and innovation and mentorship and reading about those potential mentors. And for me, Steve Jobs was one of those people that got me interested in entrepreneurship very early on. I just loved the whole story. And so I've read a lot about those Apple versus Microsoft days that happened back when Microsoft was the evil mothership. So it's funny that you bring that up.

No, totally. And, uh, yeah, and I, I mean, that for me was just— it was, uh, you know, it was a crazy time in, in the history. And, and, you know, maybe one day there'll be a, um, Remember When on CNN or something about, you know, more of the history around that. But it's just— it really, really is— it's It's interesting because I think it— the dots do connect in history as well. And you look back on those things and what people were thinking about, and it really makes me think about today's day and age and what are some of those, you know, things that are happening that— I mean, for example, I was just talking to an entrepreneur about this this morning, that I look at Clubhouse and I, I think it's fascinating that there are older millennials on Clubhouse, younger millennials, as well as older millennials and Gen Xers, but the Gen Zers aren't here. And it is, I cannot name a technology brand that has been built like with the older people.

Facebook.

And then you go younger and they just, it's just you have to have those early adapters. And, and so, you know, I have 4 Gen Zers and they've heard me on Clubhouse and they're not coming. They're— I mean, I've got 3 in college and 1 in high school and they're very, you know, very social media savvy. They're, they're like, Clubhouse? So, but there will be another one That does it right, right? It's that next Clubhouse that starts at the other age. But anyway, I think it's fascinating because how will we look at Clubhouse versus podcasts, right? And I think there's a world— or audio, audiobooks too. I mean, how does that all— we're now doing live audiobooks and, and You know, Audible's doing all kinds of interesting stuff, and how does that all kind of come together? So the curiosity in me.

Yeah, no, I'm curious too. I'm, I'm in— I'm some 27 years old, and I have a lot of friends that are my age or a little bit younger that haven't even heard of Clubhouse. And you think you're in the space, you're entrepreneurial, you might even be in tech, and not only are you not on Clubhouse, but sometimes they say, what is it? And it just fascinates me because for people, I suppose, right around my age and up, it's almost like the standard now. I've, I've been really enjoying the platform. So yeah, what is the next Clubhouse and evolution of sort of audible learning? It's fascinating.

Yeah, but you're the younger millennial, and that's what I mean. It's like it's older, not by much, but a few years. And it's just, it's, you know, what the car— what the auto industry has said for years that if you, you know, the influencers and the people that ultimately change people's minds, it actually is younger, right?

Mm-hmm.

And that is, that they lead and you can't forget about them. And you can't, you know, try and figure out a way to get them. Anyway, it's an interesting topic. I mean, even building the Hint brand, the reason I love TikTok today and, I'm not dancing on TikTok, so don't worry. But I, I'm really fascinated by it because there are, uh, there are the Gen Zers that are on there that I haven't been able to track for years, but their parents were going to the grocery store and stocking their refrigerator with Hint. So all of a sudden I show up on there and I'm giving them hopefully inspiration. to just go out and try and go do it and, you know, do the best you can. And don't worry, you can go do one thing for a couple years. If you don't like it, go do something else. It's totally acceptable. And they're like, oh my gosh, I've been drinking Hint for 10 years. And I'm like, wait, what?

You know? Yeah.

This is crazy. And so for me, it's, you know, it's so inspiring to find this audience That is, you know, not really my audience on LinkedIn or Twitter or Instagram or Facebook. They're hanging out over there, but they're not on Clubhouse. So anyway, I just think it's brands that stick, whether it's technology or a beverage or whatever, you gotta capture that young audience. So.

Yeah. Well, it's, yeah, it's all very fascinating to me. Well, I wanna be conscious of your time. I know we have to wrap up in a couple minutes. I had probably 3 or 4 times as many questions as we got to. So maybe we'll have to reconnect at another time or when the next book comes out or something like that. Where can people go to find more information about you, to find more information about the book? Where should they go? What should they do?

Yeah, so I'm all over social. I'm Kara Golden. I think I want to do a book talk. Maybe we'll do a book talk on Clubhouse and get some more people on there. And But yeah, I'm— it's the book again, it's called Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. And it's not just for entrepreneurs, it's for aspiring entrepreneurs, or like I said, I think it's just for people who are interested and curious in what it takes. And it's, you know, it's not all about unicorns and failures. There's a lot of steps along the way and how they— how people deal with them and how people You know, look at learning from their challenges, learning from their failures. All of those things are really what I think make not just great entrepreneurs, but the happiest, most successful people. I agree.

And as a young reader, it's inspiring to read a story like that. And it's also not very difficult because nonfiction is tough to break into sometimes as a reader. But an autobiography is— it almost reads like a movie in your mind sometimes. So it's a good book. It's an awesome book. I think it's for exactly who you stated it's for. So again, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thank you. I really appreciate it.