Navigating the 2024 Election with Kevin Howard

That's how you can tell a lie. And so my recommendation to people is, you have to check everything. We— the bizarre nature of where we are is we are being lied in such blatant ways.

Kevin Howard, welcome back to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you feeling today?

Nick, I'm feeling fantastic. It's exciting to be here today. This is my third, you know, version 3 of the Book Thinkers interviews. And so I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

Yeah, I think you're only the second person to come onto this podcast 3 times. The other author is Steven Pressfield, who sold millions and millions of books. And so you're in good company.

Hey, love to hear that.

So a couple of changes in your book Onward at Last since our last conversation. You have some additional commentaries, you got some additional reviews. In fact, Kirkus said, quote, an insightful reflection on human interconnectedness. So give us a little reflection. You know, what's new with the book? Why did you decide to update it?

Well, again, so much of, so much of what has happened since the book first came out in December 2022. Right? Has it— it's just like we're living in a greater and greater and more intense expression of the cognitive dissonance that I think so many of us experience. There is a huge, in my view, difference between the stories we are told and what we— what our lived experience are telling us is true. And what this does is create emotional distress. and physical distress. And so as those stories have gotten more severe, who would've thought that anything could top COVID?

Right?

Okay. So here we had COVID and we shut down the world and all the nine yards. And then after that, we reopened the world. And now we have wars in Eastern Europe. We have an ongoing People want to debate about it, but it's an ongoing genocide in Gaza. There is an approach to decide what's a genocide, and that approach has decided that this is an ongoing genocide. And so we have all these things, and now we have a presidential election that, that for the first time since 1952, we have a nominee who had not received one vote from the American people during the primary process. You know, that's just factually true. So the newest version, the latest version of Onward at Last is helping— is trying to take the thread of wisdom that we contained in the original publication and apply it within the context of the 2024 presidential election. What is true about what we're being told? Because it's answering that question that helps us to understand who we are. What is true about what we value, what we appreciate, how we see the world? And so that's why we need to have this conversation now. What is true about what we're told? Because we're about to go to the voting booth next Tuesday. And yeah, so I'm so excited to be talking about it. But that's why we came out with the new book.

Yeah. One of the things that shocked me, although I saw some signs of it, was Donald Trump on the Joe Rogan Experience a few days ago. And that podcast has taken over the world by storm. I mean, every news outlet is talking about it. And it got like 35 million views in the first day or something. So what was your reaction watching that podcast? 3 hours of unfiltered, unedited, raw conversation with a president-elect. I mean, crazy.

Who would have thought? Yeah, I tell you, when Rogan, when Rogan dropped it on YouTube last Friday evening, Friday evening of last week, I was, you know, wait, I watched every— I mean, I wanted to see exactly how that would go down. Because the thing about Joe is he has an amazing way to just get people to talk, to open up. And so, I mean, he has Trump admitting that he would want to be a whale psychologist and stuff like that. I mean, my favorite, favorite exchange between Rogan and Trump is Trump is telling him, you know, I don't know exactly why the media gives me so much attention. Can you tell me? And Joe doesn't miss a beat. He says, sure I do, because you keep on saying crazy shit. So here's, you know, an interview, I'm talking to the former president of the United States. And he says, because you keep on saying crazy shit. Trump didn't bat an eye, because he knew it was true. He didn't get offensive. And it was just like 2 guys in the backyard having a conversation. So that's my impression of that. Whether— whatever you think of him, whatever you think of in terms of whether it's true what he says or not, that was an actual conversation between 2 real people where Rogan did not let his status interfere with— just talk to me like a person. And I really feel that Kamala Harris and her campaign made a terrible mistake not to go on Rogan, because I think that's the thing that's missing. There's nothing— I mean, I have no personal critique of her other than to say, because she didn't go through an active primary— Trump went through a contested primary and he's gone through primaries over 3 election cycles. People know who he is. It's Kamala Harris that people need to get to know who she is. And she doesn't want to expose that. And I think it's a mistake because it's hard for people to say, okay, I'm going to trust you then to be the president of the United States.

Yeah, there's, uh, what I noticed about the comment section on that video is almost every one of the top comments said some version of, I think every politician should go through a long-form, unedited interview so that we don't just get the talking points and the scripted content, we get to know the human behind the candidate. And I thought that was great. I also, there There's a former podcast guest of this show, Patrick Bet-David, and he had Trump on recently. And again, that was the prevailing comment was, wow, everybody should do this. And to your point, to tie it back to your book a little bit, yes, you've decided who you're going to vote for, but what you're looking for is the truth. And I think one of the ways the truth reveals itself is through long-form, raw, unedited conversation with a normal common sense human like Joe or PBD.

Yeah, no question. No question. And so on with that theme there, I'm reminded of this quote from Mark Twain where he says, history may not repeat, but it often rhymes. Here we are faced with a historical moment where I think history is rhyming.

Okay.

And the throughput thread is the Democratic Party. So, so you had— so, okay, in, in— and stick with me for a moment. In 1864, you know, Abraham Lincoln decided when he's running for reelection to unite the country during the middle of the Civil War, and he picked as his vice president Andrew Johnson, who was a Democrat, right? A Southern Democrat. But he's trying to unite, and this is a part of Abraham Lincoln's cabinet of rivals. You know, we're gonna bring the country together. Okay. And so then, you know, Lincoln gets assassinated in 1865. Andrew Johnson becomes the president through that. And what he does is he has a whole different idea of Reconstruction, which totally countered what Abraham Lincoln was trying to do. The Congress was still able to pass the 15th and, you know, the 14th, 15th, and 16th— excuse me, 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments. But basically, it soiled the transition, and that's what led to Jim Crow and everything else. Fast forward, 1944. Franklin Roosevelt is running for his 4th term. And once again, the Democrats know that Franklin Roosevelt is gravely ill. And so his vice president was a guy named Henry Wallace, right, who was a very pro-working-class person, very peace-oriented type person. And the power brokers in the Democratic Party did not want Wallace to become president when they anticipated FDR would die in his 4th term. So they finagled the Democratic convention and got Henry Wallace replaced by Harry Truman, who had a totally different approach than FDR did. in terms of how to settle World War II with our allies, the Soviet Union and Great Britain. Okay, fast forward today. Here we go. And we have a Republican nominee who's come through the traditional democratic process of a contested primary. And you have the Democratic Party where last year 70% of Democrats said we want an alternative to Joe Biden, but the party refused to do that. Joe Biden decided to run, we could speculate as to whether they knew he was of diminished capacity. Okay. But what they did know is the person that they wanted was laying in wait in the event that Joe Biden couldn't serve out his term. And that's Kamala Harris. Right. And again, I go back to, to understand how Kamala Harris got into that position. We got to go back to 2020. Because 2020, Kamala Harris ran for the presidency against Joe Biden. with Tulsi Gabbard and with several people. And of the entire field, if you were going to say, okay, Biden is the nominee, of everyone who ran in 2020, who is the least qualified to be the vice presidential nominee? If you looked at how they performed, you would've said Kamala Harris. Why? Because she's from California. California doesn't add anything. The Democrats are going to win California by a huge margin.

Right.

Right?

She—

her campaign did so badly that she dropped out before the Iowa caucus. Okay, so what about her, given instead of Pete Buttigieg, instead of Elizabeth Warren, instead of Amy Klobuchar? I mean, all these people had done much better. What about Kamala Harris? Yeah, okay, so this is what I'm saying. This is who they wanted to replace Biden once he— if he could not serve out his term. And here it's— this is what's being set up. So now we have a nominee who didn't get any votes from anyone in the primaries. And now all we are trying to do is understand who she is so we can make a thoughtful, conscious decision. And unfortunately, we're getting soundbites. We can't get her off the teleprompter, you know, which, you know, and so that's what I think the Rogan miss is, the final tale to America that, hey, here's history rhyming again. And to me, I would just leave it there. I just think history is rhyming. Yeah.

Well, one thing that you and I talked about the last time we spoke, and it might have been via email, is that what's unique about today is we also have RFK Jr. and Tulsi, lifetime Democrats. I mean, heck, Trump was a Democrat for most of his life. We've got people like that moving over to the other side. And it's not— we talked about this a little bit. You highlighted it. It's not Republican-Democrat anymore. It's almost like establishment, anti-establishment.

Yes. No, that's so true. If you look at the coalition who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 and the coalition who voted for Donald Trump in 2020, Okay. According to the Brookings Institute, the counties that Joe Biden won represent 70% of the wealth and income in the United States. And the counties that Trump won represent 30%. There has been a shift. You know, the bulk of the middle class and the working class and the working poor have shifted. Towards the Republican Party, and and the professional class and the upper middle class and wealth has shifted to the Democratic Party. And you know, no one announced. You know, they said the revolution won't be announced. You know, no one announced that. But this has been a trend that has been happening, and it and it's and it's reflecting right now. You know, and and it's it's it's interesting. It's I tried to to share to our international folks, particularly the folks in Britain. It's as if The Tories and Labour have switched. And so what do you make out of that? I don't know, but I can tell you this much. This is what's making the polling data so hard, is because literally groups of people who voted, who historically voted one way, are starting to vote another way. So where's that going to shake out? Well, it's going to be exciting to see next Tuesday.

So as a normal just citizen of the United States, how do you recommend parsing through all of this information and what we see on all the different news stations? And how do you find that direct line of truth, which is sort of at the core of what you like to talk about?

Right. And I have a commentary called Anatomy of the Lie, because this is what it is. We went— the way you can tell, the only way you can tell that if someone is going to tell you a lie, the lie has to be protected with a story. Okay. And as long as you stay within the context of that story, the lie seems like it's true. And so the only thing we can defend ourselves with, you know, if we are interested in finding out what the truth is, is that we got to verify the story. Because the interesting thing about the person who's telling you the lie, they're going to do everything they can to get you to stay within the constraints of the story. And if you try to step out, you're going to get attacked, you're going to get abused, you're going to— okay. But the thing about it is, if it's the truth, you can verify it 12 different ways and it's still the truth. If it's a lie, the lie is only true within the context of the story. So let's take an example of what we're talking about. Okay, I like to use, you know, the example of the genocide in Gaza. So the spokesperson for the— the president's spokesperson for the national security— national security spokesperson said in January of this year, 2024, that South Africa's case of genocide against Israel that they brought to the International Court of Justice that that case is baseless and without merit. Okay, so that statement officially from the White House tells you that there's nothing there. It's baseless and without merit. Okay. And so therefore, anything, anyone telling you that it's true or there's something there must clearly be either severely lying to you. It's totally ridiculous. There's no reasonable person could think that it's true if it's baseless and without merit. Okay. But 15 of 17 judges, including the chief judge of the International Court of Justice from the United States, determined that the evidence clearly shows that, that it— that genocide is likely happening. Now, this is legal speak for there's enough evidence for us to have a full trial. That if there wasn't enough evidence, we'd throw it out as a specious claim and stuff like that. But there was enough evidence to have a full trial, and that's why they're having a full trial. So how do you reconcile what Admiral Kirby, the spokesperson for the national security for the president, said with what actually the International Court of Justice has ruled? There is no way that it's baseless, that the claim is baseless and without merit. That's how you can tell a lie. And so my recommendation to people is you have to check everything. We— the bizarre nature of where we are is we are being lied in such blatant ways. But if you check the history, if you check— use Google. If you— even Google is manipulative as it can be, right? This is stuff hiding in plain sight. This is This is bin Laden in Pakistan. This is how, you know, you can validate whether these stories that they tell you are true, you know, by simply checking it. And if you check it, just like with any rational person, if you see that you're being lied to, you're going to start questioning more and more and more. And that's all I'm saying. That's everybody. That's me. That's you. That's Donald Trump. That's Kamala Harris. That's everybody. Check what people say to make sure what they're saying is true, and that will allow you to get through.

Yeah, it's great that we have people like you who are really focused on discovering the truth because, and we've talked about this before, a couple years ago I was visiting Rome and we got a tour of the Colosseum, and our guide was telling us how the Roman elite and the aristocrats, they built the Colosseum and they gave free admission to slaves and general people so that they'd be distracted by the games so that the elite behind the scenes could be playing power games, earning money, taking advantage of everybody. And the modern-day version of that Coliseum, that distraction so you forget how bad your life is, and that distraction so that people can steal from you behind the screen, you know, the scenes, is the television. And it's the lies, and it's scrolling mindlessly on social media. And so the average person You know, with home prices and inflation, they can't come up for air long enough to actually seek out the truth unless somebody like you kind of does the dirty work for them. Now, all of that bridges to the new foreword that you have in your book by John Fullerton. And one of the things he says, I'm going to read from it. He says, quote, Kevin Howard distinguished himself as one of the regular front-row curious and thoughtful learners in my online course on regenerative economics. He regularly gave more insight and wisdom to our learning, uh, to our learning community than he probably received, and always with a smile. You're there doing the work. You're there behind the scenes looking for the truth, contributing, sharing, you know. So I— anyway, I just wanted to give you that kind of comment to say, yeah, the average person has a tough time pursuing the truth for the sake of the truth because they're too distracted. But anyway, You're motivated by it. Why are you motivated by it?

Well, because, again, I was, I was, I, I was just like the person out here who's just trying to live their lives and finding that it's harder and harder to do without external things, you know, impacting you. And I didn't understand why I did not. And so I went through a process of realizing that the reason why things are harder is because most of the things we're being told are not true. And that we have a basis of telling what is true or not based on our lived experiences.

Yeah.

So how I've written the book, I'm not trying to tell someone something that they don't know. I'm saying, let's look at something we have shared together, something we've experienced together, And now consider this, what they're telling us. Does it align to what we've actually experienced together? Because the thing about it is none of us have the time to stop our lives and just figure out everything that's going on. But we cannot navigate. You cannot navigate through your life and just take care of yourself and your family if you don't understand the truth about what's defining why you're paying the prices you're paying? You know, who's making the laws that are governing your life, that are affecting your business, that are affecting your dreams? I mean, if you don't even know what is true about that, no matter how smart, no matter how hard you work, you will start spinning your wheels. And I think more and more people are spinning their wheels and not understanding why. And this is the key. So that's— so this is an essential thing. This is not just another thing to add to your list of things you have to do. You can't make good choices if you don't have accurate information. And we are swimming in a sea of lies and deceit that serve the interests of other people. And I'm trying to get us to reclaim our sovereignty, reclaim our power by saying, I have a way of understanding what is true. And I can see you for the liar you are and what have you, and I can make another choice.

Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of a scene in 1984 where the newspaper one week might say, we're aligned with Oceania and at war with Eurasia, and then the next week it says the opposite. And if no 2 people sit down to actually say, wait a second, this is contradictory to what it said last week, if you just accept it as truth and move on and don't pause to have the conversation, like, you're right, you won't make the right decisions. You're not operating from facts. You're operating from a basis of lies, essentially.

Yeah. And the thing is, but there's also an empowering thing. Once you start realizing that you have the capability of ascertaining the truth, right? Literally, all of a sudden, the effectiveness and efficiency of your decisions will explode, will become very, very effective. Why? Because you're dealing accurately with the reality that is determining whether you could be successful. So, so start small. We right now we have a presidential election, right? The candidates have given us what they're running on, right? Let's take them for their word. This is what they say. This is what Kamala Harris is saying. This is what Donald Trump is saying. What about what they're saying is actually true? You know, it's not for me to tell you what's true. You assess what is true. If Donald Trump is the threat to democracy, but the only reason why he is on the ticket is because he was— he came through a contested primary season against legitimate Republican opponents. And Kamala Harris was selected literally in front of all our eyes, selected because Joe Biden chose not to serve because of— for whatever reason. Right. So is— which, which of these nominees just in the presentation reflects the will of the people? Right. That doesn't mean you vote for Donald Trump. It just means that, that the idea that he represents a challenge to democracy when he is product of democracy should give you some insight, should give you some triangulation here. Again, now, what is true about what Kamala Harris says? There's a lot there that's true, just like there's a lot there that's true about what Donald Trump is saying. Throw away all the lies. And then when you have the competing truths before you, that's the basis by which you decide, okay, I'm going to vote for Kamala Harris, or okay, I'm going to vote for Donald Trump. But I can tell you this much. This last argument about now we're talking Hitler, now we're talking— we're using images of Nazi celebrations at Madison Square Garden in 1939. This is— All you have to do is look on Google for the pictures of FDR, of John F. Kennedy, of Ronald Reagan, of Bill Clinton. all doing events in Madison Square Garden, right? To say we got to reach all the way back to 1939 to say because Trump is having an event in Madison Square Garden that it's a Nazi event. No, it's no more Nazi event than when Clinton was there or when Reagan was there or when Kennedy was there. So, I mean, this is what I mean about parsing what is actually true about what they're telling you. Because once you get past that, then you will be empowered to make a choice that, that is based on actual information that you can rely on.

Yeah, I was having coffee recently with one of my buddies, and it was interesting because his dad is a president of a, of a university here in Massachusetts. And he was telling me his family kind of skews left politically. And it was interesting because he, he was saying some things that reminded me of things I hear from the right. So he was saying that You know, oh, if Kamala doesn't win, you know, there's the loss of what it means to be an American. And I'm like, huh, I hear that from the right all the time. If Trump doesn't win, you lose patriotism and nationalism and pride for your country. And it's like both sides are using the same argument against each other, and both sides ignore the other person using it, and you only see it through your own lens. It's just, yeah, it is pretty goofy.

No, it is. And, and so just for fairness, let me just speak for a moment as to how, you know, what is not true about what Trump is saying. Trump is the interest. I mean, we, we should know him by now. He's been so long in the public eye. Trump is a brand. He talks to us in marketing terms, right? You know, you know, and if you turn on your— any commercial you watch, everyone is talking about their product being the best thing it's ever been or what have you. And we all know, you know, it's not, but it's probably a good product.

Okay.

So what you would— to judge Donald Trump is to take the fact that what Joe Rogan said, he's going to say a lot of crazy shit. But what does he do? What does he do? I mean, you know, and we have— you can look at his administration and it was a mixed bag, but that is what he did. That's how you judge him. Hear back from lock her up, right? Hear back from finish them. He's going to say things that are going to be bumper stickers. He's getting in a garbage truck because of what Biden said. He is a marketing genius. That's what he does. But you don't take a person who will say whatever so that it sticks in your head and take him at his word. You look at what he does and you judge him on the basis of what he does. One thing that he's done different than 2000 and 2016 is he's decided to join with RFK Jr. He's decided to join with Tulsi Gabbard. Is that— is that— these are, these are longtime centrist Democrats, right? Okay. So what is going on here? That is something different, and it's something verifiable, and it's something true. So if you— and so that's— it's that stuff that we should be basing who he is, not the crazy things he does. You know, I got to tell you, I I haven't met a person who all they are is the dumbest things they've ever done. I've done some dumb things in my life, but I'm much more than that. Okay? So there's no question RFK has done some dumb things, and every famous person has done some dumb things. But we have to look at the body of work to assess who these people are. And I think if we get to that, that's what's driving us towards the truth so that we can make a thoughtful decision. This person or that person, because It will make a difference who we elect as president of the United States next week.

Yeah, it was so funny on that Joe Rogan interview where he brings up to Trump RFK and Trump's like, I love him. I love him. We don't see eye to eye on everything. I love oil. He hates it. But we'll keep him in his lane focused on reforming health, make America healthy again. It was so funny to watch that exchange.

Yeah, but see, that's the thing to me. I mean, again, this is like borrowing a page out of Abraham Lincoln. You, you know, a cabinet of rivals, you bring to bear talented people from different perspectives and allow them to contribute what they're able to contribute. Right? You know, you do not have to agree. How did we get to this point where, where everyone has to salute, everyone has to be the same? And, you know, we come out of our little cubes and somebody— no. No, we are unique beings with something unique to offer. And the best that we can do is when we bring that diversity of talents together, right, we create solutions that serve the, you know, a broader range of people. That's what that's all about. But I love it. He said, yeah, we're gonna keep them away from the, from the, what is it, the liquid gold or something like that? And that's okay. And RFK is okay with that. Yeah, they're going to argue about those issues. That's what America used to be. We used to argue about those issues and then get together and say, well, what can we work on? You know, you know, this is no different than Reagan and Tip O'Neill back in the '80s. They would do that and, you know, blast each other, go fix it, have a drink, you know. You know, so to me, we need to get back to that. Once again, Kamala Harris had the opportunity to work with him. He came to her before he went to Trump, and basically they decided they didn't want to talk to him. So again, I don't know what that's all about, but that's a part of when you look at her and you look at the Democrats today, what they represent, and a part of when you look at Trump and you look at the Republican Party today, what they represent. It's not what we used to think. This is the party of wealth, is not the GOP anymore, and the party of working people is not the Democratic Party anymore. And that doesn't mean you need to go one way or the other, but it should inform you of who you're voting for.

Yeah. Well, to back up a little bit, and we've talked about this in the past too, when I built this podcast, my goal was never to talk, never to give a political agenda. That was one of the subjects I wanted to stay away from. And when you told me, I just want to talk about politics, I don't want to— you know, you said, hey, I kind of want to avoid partisanship. You just want to talk about things, the pursuit of truth. I think that's incredibly valuable. And when I started talking with Tulsi a few months ago about an interview on the Book Thinkers podcast, she famously ran in 2020 and then left the Democratic Party and joined with Trump. And it's like, I didn't want to talk about that. I wanted to talk with her about subjects like how can we sit down with people that disagree with us and learn from them? What a valuable skill set. I do that with books. Sometimes I'll read a personal development book that says debt is the best thing ever. You can make a ton of money by taking on a ton of debt. And then I'll read another book that says debt is evil. Stay away from it. Never touch it. And you can draw from both perspectives and apply it to your own life.

Yeah.

Right?

No, that's— it's so true. And that's, that's the thing about information, about the information that's valuable to you, is that it will resonate based on your actual— the wisdom of your actual experiences. As you gather information, some of it makes sense, some of it that you can see how it plugs in. The rest of it, you can always set aside, right? And this is why it's so important to have a diverse exposure to ideas, to communication, or whatever. You know, this is the fundamental problem of the vitriol that's poisoning our discourse, is because the other side, the way we are characterizing the other side, is that they're completely irredeemable. There is nothing that you can— there's no value you can gain out of them. And that's simply— if you look at your own life, that's simply not true. There's not a person that we've ever met, any of us, and shared experience, right, that all the person is is evil. All the person is is a liar. You know, we could talk about how horrible Adolf Hitler was, and he was horrible, right? You know, you know, there's no question about it. But he was Time's Person of the Year in 1938, not because they— based on what he had done up to that point. Based on what he had done up to that point. What I'm saying is, we study Mein Kampf, we study Das Kapital. Why? So that we can understand these points of view, not because we're advocating and because we want to be Nazis. No, you know. So just like you're saying, Nick, it's so important that we are open to the information, and we are empowered to say, Nah, that doesn't make sense. Nah, that doesn't make sense. That makes sense, right? That is the way to grow and be informed and make the best choices you can, as opposed to saying, oh, you're wearing the wrong uniform. You got the R by your name, so everything you say is BS, or you have the D by your name, everything you say is BS. And I'll say, just to, just, you know, full, you know, full disclosure, when I served in the armed forces during the '80s, under Ronald Reagan. Okay. I voted for Walter Mondale in 1984 in my first election. I voted for Democrats most of my life. Right. I'm not— but I'm not beholden to Democrats. So I'm just, I'm just putting that out there, that, that my consideration of whether Donald Trump or Kamala Harris now cannot be because of the labels. Why? Because those labels don't tell me what I need to know. You know, and I'm hoping that everyone listening to this podcast will take a sober look. Many of them have already voted. That's okay. But for those who haven't, and even for those who have, take a sober look at what these people are telling us. Do your homework. It doesn't take a lot of research. It literally is so easy to check a lie. I mean, any triangulation, you know, you could see you all of a sudden say, well, that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense. And you all— there you go. So have a sober look as to who these people are so that we can make the best choice we can.

What, what are your thoughts today on those 4 core values of freedom, independence, self-interest, and competition? How have they evolved since the original version of your book came out?

Well, they persist to be— see, these, these are— these defining virtues are what help us to understand This is what— this is how we judge success. This is how we judge what it is to be a good person. And if we don't reconsider what those things mean, then we are deferring the, you know, how we organize our lives towards success to, once again, something that we were told. Right? And so where those 4 virtues stand is where they stood when I— when I represent the book. They do not reflect how we survive every day. They do not reflect how we live every day. Okay, there is nothing in nature that lives independently. None of us make the air we breathe, the food we eat, the water we drink, the clothes we wear, right? We all live and thrive based on the contributions of people we will never know. Right? That means that we are interdependent, and by design, we're interdependent. Think of yourself like a red blood cell. As long as a red blood cell is in your body, it can do what it does, which is to take oxygen and deliver it to different places of your body. If you put a red blood cell in a Petri dish, it's not going to function. And that's us, right? We are interdependent. And when we are making decisions, whether it's the President of the United States or whether we go to war and we make them based on our own perspective without consideration of the other people who are going to be affected, we are flying in the face of how we survive every day. When we think of— whatever you think of MAGA, if those are the farmers, if those are the ranchers, I mean, this is how you eat. Whatever you think of the libtards or whatever, You know, that's technologists, professional class, and stuff like that. They are all contributing to make America the greatest country this world has known, right? So therefore, we need all of it. We're interdependent, right? And so where those 4 virtues stand is they continue to be the myth that gets us to make decisions that don't serve us. And until we acknowledge that based on looking at our own personal experience, we're going to continue to chase our tail.

Yeah, we are interconnected. And that line of the average Republican and the average Democrat have more in common with each other than they do the people representing them comes to mind because, yeah, if you're on the right, you've got to realize that the left represents, like you said, the professional class, the people creating the technology that we use, et cetera. And if you're on the left, You've got to remind yourself that the food in the grocery store was most likely grown or created or whatever by somebody who sits in the opposite political party. And you should be aware of that, and you should respect every single person for the decisions they're making and be curious and ask questions. And if everybody was a little less emotionally reactive and a little more considerate with everybody around them, I mean, man, we'd be in— we would be such a different country right now.

Well, the thing about it is, it's not our— I mean, we, we own the choices we make, but the situation is being made this way on purpose. Who benefits from the food fight? Who benefits from us yelling and screaming because of differences in gender and skin color and religion and stuff like that? The people who are at the top, who, if you look at the data, are getting more and more and more of the wealth and income of the country. I mean, it's not by accident and it's dramatic. And so while we fight, they benefit. And so, yes, it would be a different country if we didn't hate each other the way we are encouraged to hate each other. But that is the good news. If you look at what's happening in the South, in places that would typically be anti-union, I'm not advocating for unionism, but people in Alabama who have been convinced that it is an issue of freedom, right to work, to not join a union, have decided their benefits are not— they're not benefiting from not being organized. So they're agreeing to organize. They're not trying to become liberal. They're just trying to get a fair slice of the productivity, of the compensation for the productivity that they make, right? This is what I mean about expanding beyond these labels and, you know, these dogmas which keep us fighting. As soon as we put the labels down, we see we're facing another person who's just trying to feed their family, who just wants to have a nice retirement. who just wants to go on a vacation, who want, you know, I mean, you know, that person still exists. But if they're convinced, just like you're convinced that you're not going to be able to take care of your family unless you fight that person, then that's what we're doing. And, but as soon as we stop doing that, all of a sudden we know, hey, where's all the money? Oh, it's that guy over here. Right. And how did he get it? You got it from us because we're the ones doing all the work. That's all I'm saying. And this is not— again, this is not about hating people who have more money, right? This is about just what is true about what we're actually experiencing. Because there was a time in America that a working-class person could own a house. I mean, that sounds like a fantasy. We're living at a time that middle-class people are having trouble buying a house. There was a time in America that a working-class person could buy a house, non-college educated. Okay. And we need to get back to that. Not back as in that era. We need to get back to a circumstance where we have shared prosperity in America, where everyone who works hard, who pays their taxes, can achieve the American dream. Right now, who's the American dream for?

Yeah. What a beautiful way to end the show today, Kevin. And it puts me back. There's gladiators fighting in the arena trying to kill each other for the entertainment of the ones sitting up above watching everybody fight, just profiting off of the entire thing. And you just got to think, oh, maybe we need a little bit of objective perspective. And you bring that and you bring it so well and you're so incredibly articulate and well-thought. You're pursuing the truth, and I commend you for that in so many ways. So, um, final word here. Where can people go to grab an updated copy of your book Onward at Last, which has some new commentaries and a new foreword? And, and people can use that book to seek truth. So where can they go? What should they do?

They can go— first and foremost, it is in most of the major bookstores, you know, Barnes& Noble. It's all— it's out— it's out there on Amazon. They can also go to my website, www.onwardatlast.com, and all the links for the hardcover, for the paperback, for the Kindle ebook, and for the audiobook, which is narrated by Carolyn Jania. You know, any of those versions. And, and quite frankly, if, if, if finances are a challenge, you can absolutely access the commentaries on the blog page Yeah, you're awesome.

Thank you so much, Kevin. It was a pleasure.

Thank you, Nick. This was great.