Step into Entrepreneurship Fearlessly with Jothy Rosenberg

I had a monkey on my back, and and and I was told by people who didn't understand what chemotherapy was that I was going to die. And so I lived with that. And so you are willing to be quite a risk taker when you think, well, I don't have long to what you know what the hell. And so you know I I when the chemotherapy end ended. I said, I'm done here. I'm done with college. I drove to, to, to, from Detroit to Utah, became a ski bum and skied 100 days straight to get good at skiing and thought I was going to ski until I dropped dead. And then the snow melted and I wasn't dead and I couldn't figure out what to do next.

Joffe, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books podcast. We're going to jump right into it. You have had 8 startups from 1988 until the present day. And I want to kick things off. It's the late 1980s. You're at Duke and you get what entrepreneurs like to call the itch. So, this is where I'd like to start the conversation today. Take us from that moment. You get the itch and then what happens?

Yeah, I was a professor at Duke and I was working on a NASA contract. And we were building this supercomputer, but it was only on a single, a big but single board that was gonna go on board the space shuttle. You remember the space shuttle? And I was just enamored with this thing and said, why is this only going to NASA? Why isn't this something that every company that needs a supercomputer and is buying these machines that require water cooling and a huge room and— And are just expensive monsters. Wouldn't they want something that's faster than that but could just fit in something that's the size of a filing cabinet? That was the itch. But I didn't know anything about startups. I was a professor and I was in North Carolina, and it's not Silicon Valley or Boston, which is where You know, all startup things, certainly back then, was happening. So, that was the itch.

Well, let me ask this. Were you always entrepreneurial? You know, a lot of people say, when I was young, I had a lemonade stand and I always knew I wanted to be in control of my destiny. But it sounds like maybe that wasn't the case for you, at least originally.

Not in that kind of way. I mean, yeah, I was a kid that— I'll tell you this, I was a kid that understood the importance of money. And I, so, so I, I, I mowed grass for, you know, everybody on the street and I made them pay me for it. And it wasn't just a favor because I, I had, I needed money for stereo equipment. I loved music, rock and roll. I mean, I was probably 11 and I was already listening to Led Zeppelin and, and, and, and, you know, Supertramp. And, and so, I, in that sense, I was maybe a little bit, you know, entrepreneurial.

Now, I'm so curious, how did you— like, I wanted to ask all about your past and everything else because you have such an inspiring story. I mean, like, I dug into you a little bit. I'm like, holy smokes, this guy is incredible. So, I guess just trying to keep the conversation more towards the book. How did you go from, you know, a professor to taking this leap? Like, what was inside of you? And you said the itch, but like, what was inside you that was like, okay, I have the courage to take this leap? Or did you just not even think about it that way?

I did think about it that way. But you— so this is where, you know, the context of everything that happened to me when I was a kid made me fearless. And And very, you know, comfortable taking risks because what had happened to me is, you know, cancer at age 16 in the bone of my knee, had to have my leg amputated. Everybody was telling me what I can't do. That's all I've heard is can't. And I had to figure things out on my own. And then, and I did a little bit, you know, trying various things and getting good on crutches. But then I got whack number two in college, and the cancer had spread to my lung and had taken take my my left lung out. And and so now I thought, okay, I'm I'm I'm doomed. And and I was my life was saved because chemotherapy had just come out. But but that didn't take. I had a you know I had a monkey on my back, and and and I was. Told by people who didn't understand what chemotherapy was that I was going to die. And so I lived with that. And so you are willing to be quite a risk-taker when you think, well, I don't have long to— what the hell? And so when the chemotherapy ended, I said, I'm done here. I'm done with college. I'm I drove to, to, to, from Detroit to Utah, became a ski bum and skied 100 days straight to get good at skiing and thought I was going to ski until I dropped dead. And then the snow melted and I wasn't dead and I couldn't figure out what to do next. So I finished school, um, and, and I still didn't think I was going to be around. That thing lasted a long time, 25 years before I actually— Stopped thinking that I was okay. And so all that time, I'm, I'm taking risks, you know, and, and, um, and, and, and one of those finally, you know, came when it's like, I don't know what, what to do about this except I gotta try. I gotta figure this out. I, I, I am married to the most, um, understanding and patient and amazing woman who said, oh, we're going to move from this wonderful, safe North Carolina and go to California, which is going to fall into the ocean. Really? You want to do that? Okay, sure, she says. So, we did.

Wow. That is so— like, just hearing you talk about it is so inspiring. What do you have to say for people who don't have that scary thing that's pushing them? Because I think A lot of people that want to be entrepreneurs or want to have a startup, like, their problem is that they're super risk-averse and they want to have the security, the supposed security of a job. So, what's your advice to somebody that may be struggling with not wanting to take the leap because they're scared?

Well, we actually all have in us, I think, more of an inner strength that you can dig down to. And I can't, you know, we don't have time to go through the whole thing, but I, because I did a TED Talk on it, but I think there are traits that people can, if they think about them, if they hear the explanation, if they think about them, they can bring them together for them as well. Now, I'm not going to say that that, you know, there's— the startups aren't risky. They, they, they are, of course. But, um, it— if you can kind of get past the point of, well, what if the startup fails and I don't have a job? Almost, almost everybody who has the ability to even think about doing a startup probably is not going to have trouble finding a job. And so, I would say, you know, it's kind of now or never. Just pull the trigger and do it. But I think the grit that we always say startup people have is it's not like, oh, they're born with it and I wasn't. That's not the case. It's that maybe you haven't That's good.

You haven't fully uncovered it yet. I love that. And anybody who's listening should definitely go look at his TED Talk. It's super inspiring. I'll link it and make sure I link it in the show notes. So, you have this concept of grit that I love how you talk about this and approach it. Maybe you can tell the story about going after dancing and eventually dancing with your daughter. Can you just unpack that a little bit? Because I think it speaks a lot of— your powerful grit that you have?

Well, there were a list of things that people had said I can't do that I was kind of unconsciously, at least, going through and saying, these are things I loved and want to love again. And one of them was dancing. And, and I don't mean some fancy dancing. I mean, it's just, just rock and roll, which I consider to be controlled falling, actually. Um, and, and so, but the— in, in those days and until only about, um, 8 years ago, um, the, the knees on these prosthetic legs were just mechanical. And if you didn't have your your knee straight before you put your weight on it, it wasn't able to lock and it would, it would collapse and you would go on the ground. And amputees fall an average of once a week their entire lives. And if you try to dance, which is when I got to, to college, I, I was a clean slate. Nobody knew me. We're walking around the quad and I would, See a girl, and I would say, "Hi, my name is Joffy. Would you like to go out with me tonight dancing?" I mean, literally, I was doing that, and I was, I was, I was going out four nights a week for ten weeks, and I never went with the same girl twice because of the story I'm about to tell you. And, and so I would, I would take this girl out.

We would.

For some reason, I thought I had to buy them dinner to dance with them. So I really. Blew through some money. But I would have dinner with them, and then I would ask them to dance. And it would usually be a, um, a, a jukebox or something. It wasn't usually a band. And I would dance a little bit, and then I would make a mistake, and I would bang, and I'd fall right on her feet. And she would look— and we hadn't had much to drink, or, or probably hadn't had anything to drink. And she would say, do you need, you know, do you wanna sit down? I'd say, no, no, no, let's keep going. But usually third time of falling on her feet, she says, that's enough, we're sitting down. And I just did that for the 10 weeks. And I was slowly getting a little bit better, but it was like, I mean, there is no recovery. If you make one mistake, boom, you're down. But then they made these— so now the prosthetics have an accelerometer in them and they have a computer that can close the valve on a hydraulic— yeah, close the valve on the hydraulic cylinder. So all of a sudden, it detects that the knee is accelerating fast, very fast, it can tell. It closes that valve and suddenly the leg Holds you and, and then, you know, gives you time to, to recover. And so, and so now you can actually on purpose sort of bend the leg and then, and then, so it looks like you're dancing rock and roll correctly. And, and so, so then, you know, my, my, my daughter is getting married. She says, you know, father-daughter dance, you know, dad. Um, and I said, okay, well, you know, you're gonna have to work with me on this. And and then she picks she picks Genesis We Can't Dance as the song. And and we it was fantastic. It was just such a just an incredible amazing experience. But one of the things that they have in these legs is is a way to kind of rotate it out of your way if you're you know driving and you. And you— and it's tight, or if you're on the plane and, you know, and it's got it, it's just helpful. Well, it turns out if you're standing on it and you reach down and do that, you can now have the foot planted on the ground and I can spin all the way around and my foot is on the ground and I'm moving, which, you know, either makes people really curious or throw up, one of the two. And, and And then it snaps back in and it's fine. So she said, Dad, I really want you to do that towards the end of the dance. And then she steps back and she starts pointing to people to look as I did that. So that was my dancing experience with my daughter.

Is there a video of this that we can see somewhere?

Yes. Yes, I can find it. I think I actually did put it years ago On YouTube, and I can— and it's got to still be there. I can find it.

You'll have to send that our way. I'm sitting here today with Ken Rusk, who has done hundreds of millions of dollars in business. He's also sold tens of thousands of books and changed countless lives. We're sitting here today because he is sponsoring today's episode. So Ken, tell everybody about your course.

Well, thank you. I built a course called The Path to a Successful Life. It's designed around trying to get somebody unstuck. You know, sometimes you feel So if you're feeling like you're kind of stuck in where you are and you're not really sure what you want your life to look like or how to go about getting it, well, for the cost of about dinner and a movie and maybe the time you'd spend on a weekend, you can know exactly what you want your future to look like and how to go about getting it.

You know the power of vision. That's why you watch podcasts like this. So click the link below, get signed up, and let me know what you're expecting. The whole time you were telling that story, I was thinking back to my college days and how timid some of my friends were to approach a girl and ask them to dance or ask them to go out. Meanwhile, you're doing this 4 nights a week, falling on them and having to ask for new dates. So kudos to you. I love the confidence, my friend. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, and I'm not sure I would do that now. But back then, I was absolutely fearless about that. And, and so it worked.

Yeah. Well, that stat about the average amputee falls once per week. You know, to kind of pivot back in a little bit of a cheesy way, startup founders fail pretty often too. And there's a quote that I wanted to read to you, which says, creating a startup can be the most satisfying, rewarding, exciting, creative thing you'll ever do. And it might just be the most lucrative as well. But sometimes it is none of those things. That's a quote from the beginning of your book. So I want to dig into this moment a little bit more where you decide to take the leap and join a team because there are so many different ways to start a business. And I think a lot of people in our audience are going to find a lot of value in your deeper advice here. So, what are some of the ways that you can start a business and get involved with startups?

Well, you can— I mean, a great way and the way that And I did this is don't try to be the leader of one your very first try with a team that you join where there's an experienced CEO. You've got so many things you can learn in a low-risk kind of way. I mean, it's okay. The startup is risky, but the other part of you being responsible for it failing is not there if you're a member of the team and you're soaking up as much as you can and you're learning. And that's exactly what happened. I mean, I had— I brought the work I'd done. I joined with people who also saw that there was a hole in the market that we could, you know, drive right into and own. And, and so there were a whole bunch of things around the market and how to get a product that, you know, you've tested and, you know, customers are going to buy. And so those were all things that I was learning and then how to support customers once you got them, which wasn't easy, by the way. We weren't using the internet for this kind of thing. And so You were sending floppy disks to people, even for a supercomputer, when you had to patch, you know, the software. And so that's one way. But another way is the, you know, the Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs way. For one, I just realized they were both named Steve, and I hadn't realized that before.

Anyway, squared.

Yep.

Yeah.

So, so that is, um, a couple of guys have, have, have an idea and they hang out. Um, and on the West Coast, it's in a garage. In New England, it's in the basement, right? You know, um, and, and, and you— and I've done it that way. And you, you kind of, you know, bang some things out and you, and, and, and you're experimenting. And that way works as well. And a third way is that you're at a big company and you're at a certain kind of big company that has the idea that they will, you know, sort of help foster and spin things out. And I had a chance to do that as well. There's more ways than that, but those are 3 ways that I have personal experience with. And they all work as ways to start a new entity.

Yeah, I love that you're highlighting there are different options because in today's age, there's a lot of social media content around the stoic entrepreneur starting like Steve and Steve did in the garage against all odds, weathering all battles, fighting all— it's risky every single day and eventually, they make it but they're all beat up. And it's like, well, you could join a startup where not all of the risk falls on your shoulders and you can act like a sponge and learn or join a much larger organization who can financially support this spinoff. And so that risk doesn't exist in the same way. And so for somebody in the audience that's listening, like I joined a small business when I graduated college, a small business where I could gain access to all these different departments and learn from the founder and things like that. before starting BookThinkers, which made starting BookThinkers from scratch a little less risky. And I just wanted to highlight that you've gone down these different paths and you highlight them in the book because it doesn't have to be that stoic, stand against all odds type of thing that we see on social media.

That's right. And it's especially important for someone who thinks they're going to lead a startup. Because there's a lot on your shoulders for sure when you do that. And it's really helpful to have had some experience and have an idea about how to raise money, for example. And because one of the things I always thought about was, you know, you have, let's say, 10, 12, maybe even 25 employees. And And that's a big responsibility, but it's bigger even than that because you've got 25 families potentially that you're responsible for. And I took that very seriously when I'm watching the cash and I'm— And even when cash is running low and we don't have enough runway to get done what we need to get done with the money that we have, And we're not going to get to that next major milestone where we can raise money. And even when you have to lay some people off, it's a horrible thing. But what you're also doing is you're saying, I'm letting you go and I'm sorry about that, but I'm preserving what I have, which is smaller and can last longer. For the people that— there. And my choice was, well, it's all— it's gone for everybody, or is it gonna live for these people? And you try to do everything you can for the people you let go, but, you know, it's a tough thing, but you have to be prepared to do it. And I actually talk about how to do it in the book. I talk about the— there is really a right and a wrong way. To do layoffs. And there's another chapter about, well, if everything has just not worked, there is no shame in saying, all right, this one didn't work. I am going to wind it up. That's what it's called when you essentially— I know it's called shutting down. It's also called wind-up. And there's no shame in having a startup that didn't work. There's, you know, you can analyze and you can try to learn from what went wrong. Sometimes the market just isn't there for when you thought it was. And but you know more and you go on and do another one.

So, what is your advice to those people that might have had a failed business or failed startup? To not let that take over their minds? Because I know in my life, I know several different business owners that have, you know, they had the business, it failed, and then they, they just, they stopped, they quit. What's your advice to those people that are maybe in that moment of, man, I just had a business fail and I'm judging myself super harshly?

Yeah, I've known several people who are, are, are that way. And, and I know one in particular that That had a tough time, and he has still not gotten back to it. But what he's doing, which is what I would you know recommend, is okay, well fine, take a break. Go go get a job someplace, you know, a bigger company where it's you know safe. You know lick your wounds a little bit, but. If you did it once, there's something in you that is, is still there. And but you also can't just, you can't just sort of sit there one day and say, okay, I'm going to start another company, because you got to have a great idea. You got to be going after a big problem. So those don't just happen every day. You've got to— But you maybe have to look for them. But you know, it'll come along and it'll come back to you if you had that kind of itch the first time. That itch doesn't go away.

Jothi, as we get into the last 10 minutes or so of the show and start winding down a little bit, I wanted to ask why you decided to write this book as a series of anecdotes and as a business memoir. Instead of like an instruction manual for how to operate a startup? Because I thought this was a really interesting way to do it.

Yeah. And I, so I saw all the books out there that were either really quite dry, sort of instruction manual type thing, or the other type was somebody who's telling you how amazing they are. And there are a lot like that. And, and I don't think either of those is super easy for somebody to absorb and, and turn into something that they can actualize. So, so what I did was what I thought would have really been helpful to me. Actually, several of my books have that, which is, oh, it's the book I really wish I'd had. And, and because my, my memoir, which I'd written quite a while back, was, uh, well received, written in the, in a very informal first-person, uh, style— well, of course memoirs are written in the first person, but you know, this really sort of folksy almost style I thought, well, why isn't it— why can't I write a business book that's using that same style? And the, and the reason I call them anecdotes is that they're focused on a particular topic, a particular type of thing that I went through, and over and over as I did multiple startups, and where there's kind of a Underlying in that anecdote, underlying it is, okay, here's what you're trying to get done and here's why that's really important. And here's what happens, what happened to me in these 3 startups where it really went haywire and why it went haywire and what could you do to avoid it or what could you do to recover from it? And And I was writing these over a period of 10 years as I went through things. And I was, you know, just writing down, this is what happened and this is what I did. And let me tell you, there's at least 10 anecdotes that I didn't include. And I could only include when a few people die. Because otherwise they're going to be really mad and I can't disguise them completely. So yeah, there's some, there's some, um, other juicy material that, that will come out someday, but it's, it's really, um, I think, uh, much more approachable this way. And the publisher thought so because when I— When I was just sort of reaching out after the pandemic to a bunch of people. I'm well known for not losing touch with people, and I had during the 3 or so years of the pandemic. And I was reconnecting with a bunch of people, and one of them was the publisher of a previous book that was on cloud computing. And he said, you know, so what are you up to? And I I said, well, you know, I've been playing around with these anecdotes. I was thinking of maybe doing a blog for a while, and then it might grow into a book. And he goes, well, you know, tell me the idea. And I told him about the whole first-person thing. He says, I don't think that's been done. And then when we were about to hang up, he said, would you send me the table of contents? And I did. And my table of contents is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, you know. I mean, investors are not your friend, or the good, the bad, and the ugly of startup boards, and board observers. Do you know the meaning of the word observe? And that kind of thing. And I sent it to him. And about 30 or 40 minutes later, I get a DocuSign with a publishing contract. No words, no callback and say, hey, And I, and I, I said to my wife, this is very strange. He just sent me a contract. She, she said, what do you think it means? I, I think he's in a hurry and I think he wants it, in which case he just gave me the negotiating advantage. Um, and I did, I did sign the contract after a little bit of negotiation. Um, and, and so that's the publisher, but I'll tell you this. And one of the reasons why I want to work with you guys. The publisher does a nice job, okay, of marketing, producing, and then marketing a book. But, and I know this from my previous book, when they've been pretty successful, they get about 10,000 copies out there. Now, I just looked this statistic up before our call. There are 150 million startups in the world. And 50 million new ones are created every year worldwide. So, doesn't 10,000— I haven't done the math, but it's a very small percentage of those numbers, right? And so, I have a personal goal of— and it's still a drop in the bucket for these numbers, but a personal goal of doing 100,000. And it's not to make money because you don't— you still don't make money at that level. It is about getting this in the hands of that many more founders. And that's why I love you guys, because you're going to help me do that.

Well, Book Thinkers family, if you're listening, thank you for making it this far into the podcast and buy a copy of the book. We'll obviously have it linked in the show notes below. And so, Jothi, as I kick it over to Luke for the final question, I'll add that You know, my specialty is helping people to retain and implement more from the books they're reading. There are a lot of people that buy books on entrepreneurship, and they don't start a business, or they don't apply what they've read about the startup process. And sometimes that is the author's fault, because they've written in a format that's not engaging. It's dry, it's boring, or it's just all about me, like you highlighted, and your book is directly in the middle. It's fun, it's engaging, it's actionable. And there are clear steps to implement and follow. And so I think it will be successful. And when a book is actionable, it has word-of-mouth momentum. Because somebody reads it, they apply it, they change their behavior, it leads to success. Other people go, what the heck did you do? Because it's not working for me. And they go, this book. So I'm happy that you wrote it in that format. And I'm excited to work with you and do a deep dive on the book and share it with our audience and a whole bunch of other cool stuff. But this has been a great conversation today, the first of what will probably be a few podcast interviews over time. But thank you so much. And this isn't the end of the show because Luke has a couple of famous last questions. So I'll kick it to Luke.

Okay.

All right. So the first one is, where can people go to find you? Obviously, we'll link it all in the show notes. But where can they go to find out more about you and your book?

Okay, so it's easy, jothyrosenberg.com. And I have there information about the book, the podcast that I'm doing to try to support the book. And I hope to do some speaking to also support the book.

Beautiful. Well, we can't wait to see you on stage some more. I know your TEDx talk was so good. And I was just like, man, this guy needs to talk more. So I'm excited for that. All right. So, this is the final question I like to ask all our guests and it's this. Everything you've put out, you pass away and everything you put out, the books, courses, anything that you've put out on the internet has disappeared but you can leave the world with a single piece of advice, what would it be?

Well, so I think that the simplest piece of advice is I like the phrase, Who Says I Can't? And by that, what I really mean is don't think can't and don't say can't.

Yes, I 100% agree. And, uh, everyone who's listening, I'll also link this in the show notes, but, uh, Jothy has an amazing foundation too. It's the whosaysicant.org, I believe it is, uh, where he supports disabled kids and all kinds of stuff. He's doing some amazing things outside of just this book. So Jothy, thank you so much for your wisdom today. This has been amazing. I can't wait to chat with you more and help introduce your book to our audience. Thanks for coming on.

Oh my goodness, this was great. Thank you guys. I'm so thankful to have discovered you and getting a little bit of help on this from you.

So happy to be here.