Success does NOT Equal Happiness | Laura Gassner Otting

As soon as we become successful, everything will get easier. And what they don't tell you is—

Yeah, that was powerful.

I think most self-help is terrible. Despite all this success, they weren't very happy. What I learned from them is that you don't find a way through Wonder Hell. You don't find a way to survive it. You find a way to thrive in it. And so the lessons from all those people have gone into my second book now, Wonder Hell. In a sea of soul-sucking self-help garbage, finally a book that doesn't make you feel worse after you read it than before you began.

And that's what Laura, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you feeling today?

I'm feeling great. How are you doing?

I'm doing well as well. We have been connected for so long. I read your first book a few years ago, and then we've communicated back and forth on social media, on Clubhouse. It's nice to finally have you on the podcast. I'm excited to chat about your brand new upcoming book, Wonder Hell. So why don't you introduce yourself to everybody? Tell them a little bit about who you are and why you decided to write this book.

Sure. So my name is Laura Gassner Otting. All my good friends call me LGO. And I basically spend all of my time thinking about the question of why doesn't success equal happiness? So I spent 20 years in executive search, and it was my job to call the most successful people in the world. and recruit them away on behalf of my clients. And that sounds like kind of a hard job, except for the fact that, you know, I would call them, right, because of all the success. But despite all this success, they weren't very happy, which is why they all called me back. And I was fascinated by this question. And so when I left executive search, selling my business to the women who helped me build it, I spent a lot of time researching this question. And the answer to that question is what I wrote about in my first book, Limitless. Then when Limitless came out, I found myself in this moment where I was like, well, I did have success in a way that was meaningful to me, that made me happy. But why am I still not happy? Like, if I've defined success for myself and it's meaningful, that's great. But here's the problem. As soon as I found success in this way that was meaningful for me, suddenly I saw this version of myself, a potential that I didn't even know I had. in this newfound me. And that's when I found myself in wonder hell. It was amazing. It was exciting. It was fabulous. It was wonderful. But also, when I saw that potential and the burden of that potential sat on my shoulders, I went, oh, now what do I do with it? Can I do it? Should I do it? Am I allowed to do it? It was anxiety-provoking and stressful and uncertain, and it was kind of hell. It was wonderful, and it was hell. And so I spent the last year interviewing 100 different people to understand how they got out of wonder hell. Olympic medalists, startup unicorns, first ofs, right? Glass ceiling shatterers. And a lot of people who you've had on your podcast, whose books that you have profiled. And what I learned from them is that you don't find a way through wonder hell. You don't find a way to survive it. You find a way to thrive in it. And so the lessons from all those people have gone into my second book now.

Well, I think this book is, I mean, it's certainly timely for me and we'll talk a little bit maybe in a minute about why I enjoy your writing style and everything like that. But I've been battling that same question as I detailed in an Instagram caption recently. You know, I went from this very average sort of underperforming from an academic perspective, high school and college student to somebody who's running a business now that's growing and it's successful and we're hiring. But the bigger it gets, the more wonderful it is, but also the more hellish it is from a different perspective because, yeah, it creates a weight, it creates an anxiety, creates a series of stressors that consume a lot of your time. You know, I spend a lot of my time putting out fires and dealing with client-related things that I didn't expect when I first had that dream of like, whoa, I have this unfulfilled potential. Let me go build a business and see if I could try to help people. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And here's the thing. Like, we think that when we hit— when we— when we're successful, we think when we finally have success, like you had this idea when you started the business that if you only got it to a certain size, everything would get easier, right? Like if you had a certain number of clients or a certain amount of revenue, everything would get easier. And then when you got to that, you were like, oh, it's actually harder because now I have this increased hunger. I hit this faster pace. It's— I want more. And, and That's the problem. Like, the success industrial complex has given us this BS idea that as soon as we become successful, everything will get easier. And what they don't tell you is that it never gets easier. In fact, it gets harder each time. And what they don't tell you also is that it's pretty lonely. Like, who are you going to complain to? Like, my business is successful. Boo-hoo. Like, nobody wants to hear that. Nobody wants to hear that your business is successful. You're busy putting out fires. And, and but yet there are so many of us who are entrepreneurs who are running businesses, who are doing something because we love doing the thing. And every time we had a little bit of success in doing the thing, that only brought us more of that work, which made us shift how we work and who we are and how we show up every single day. And it forces us to be in this place where it's like, it's amazing, but it's also really so much harder than I thought. And so, you know, this, this wonder hell place that we're in is exciting and it's amazing, but it's also really lonely.

As somebody who has an amazing bookshelf behind you and has read a lot of self-help books, as you've noted in here, I think that my community faces a similar type of duality because the more you read, the more you realize you don't know what's going on. Like, there's this ignorance is bliss place that starts when you first get into personal development. And then the more you read, every single book leads to 10 more books. And so, it does become a little bit overwhelming. Have you found the same thing?

I have, you know, my, my, my favorite blurb from my last book, Limitless, came from Jordan Harbinger, the very popular podcast Jordan Harbinger Show. And the, the blurb goes something like, in a sea of soul-sucking self-help garbage, finally a book that doesn't make you feel worse after you read it than before you began. I was like, that's the best blurb ever, because I think most self-help is Terrible. If you think about the self-help industry, it's actually not meant to make you better, right? If, if you read a self-help book and you're better, that person can't sell you more books. They can't sell you their courses. They can't sell you their masterminds. Like, it's, it's kind of like a famous chef who puts out a cookbook, but they like skip one step or one key ingredient in every single recipe. So it's not quite as good as when you go to the restaurant, right? Like, they're not in the business to put themselves out of business. And so I'm not really a self-helper. I mean, I consider myself really a— I'm an accidental self-help personal development author. So I don't have masterminds and I don't have all that. I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. Like, I just like writing books about things that I needed to learn. Like, I'm writing books that I need to know. And, you know, when I found myself in wonder hell, I read all of them. I tried to 10x and I tried to crush it and I tried to lean in and I stopped apologizing and I washed my face and all the things that I was supposed to do.

I love that.

And none of it worked. Like, none of it worked. And why? Because those books are only there to make me feel like I need more of those books. And I just decided I didn't. I, I wanted to write a book for people who actually wanted answers, who actually wanted systems and steps and stories of people who could inspire them to make a specific change and to not need the next thing.

Yeah, well, we're focused on you. I'll have a quick side note here, which is that I have a book coming out later this year. I don't have a date planned for it yet, but part of it is navigating or combating the downsides of the self-help industry because just like you, I believe if you don't implement effectively and you don't know how to take information from these books, you can be left in a place where you visualize the success happening and then you dive further into that person's world and environment and ecosystem to try to get what's missing. When I believe oftentimes in some of those books that you're sort of referencing, you can draw stuff out of them without getting into the rest of the network and being upsold. So I'm totally with you. And I agree, you know, this is a self-help book because somebody can read it and implement it and change their behavior. But it's not— you're not upselling everybody into something else. So I respect that.

I literally had a conversation with somebody just before we started who was like, well, so, you know, the way to like really turn your book into like a million-dollar business is to have lead gens throughout the book, have people like, you know, URLs for people to go and download stuff. And do you have that stuff? And I was No. She's like, you should. I'm like, I don't want to. Like, I just— it's just I don't want to. Like, I want people to read my book and to help themselves, right? Like, when I first— like, it's funny because when Limitless came out, I actually thought I wrote a business book. Like, Limitless was all about how do you find success and happiness in your career? Like, what do you do? How do you change your workplace? How do you change your career? How do you change your life so that the definition of success that you are pursuing is actually yours? It means something to you and you care about it because you can't be insatiably hungry for someone else's goals. So how do you figure out your goals and then go after that with everything you have? And I thought I wrote a business book. And then I got a phone call. The book came out in April. The January before the book came out, I got a phone call from the Today Show that was like, do you want to come on the Today Show? And it's like, does anybody say no to that? Like, yes, of course I do. Like, okay, so come on next Tuesday. It's the 9:00 hour. It's Hoda and Jenna. It's basically a stay-at-home mom audience. And I was like, a stay-at-home mom audience? I wrote a business book. Like, what are you talking about? And then I called a really good friend of mine and I told him the story and he was like, you didn't write a business book. What do you really— all business books are self-help books. The person that's being helped is just the CEO or a leader or a manager. It's still the self. Like, the self in self-help is just them. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And it turns out that the personal development self-help genre is way bigger than the business leadership genre anyway. So like, awesome, happy to be there. But this idea in the beginning, like, I actually wrote blog post about it that's titled something like, oh no, I wrote a self-help book. Like, I just— it wasn't my plan because self-help just feels very like I'm looking for my next guru, I'm looking for my next, like, instant, you know, magic pill. But then I came to realize that I may put the help in self-help, but the person's got to put the self. Like, they've got to bring themselves into, like, read a book and see yourself in the book and see your issue, your problem, your demon, your challenge in that book, and actively make a decision to do something about it. I mean, that's brave. That's brave. And I salute anybody who reads self-help.

Yeah, me too. There's a popular metaphor that I've seen in the self-help industry using cookbooks, which you brought up. So imagine you read a cookbook on how to produce the world's best chicken parm. You study it, you take notes, you buy all the ingredients, but you never actually put them to use. You never actually implement the recipe. It would seem so strange that somebody would do that, but oftentimes we do it with these books. We get all of the help that we need and we don't apply this self to it. So kind of transitioning back to your book, I thought, I think it was in the introduction, you were talking about the executive search business and you said that oftentimes when you're hiring for a C-level position, you would interview candidates from outside of the company, but also some candidates from inside of the company.

Yes.

Once they envision themselves in these big positions, what would happen?

Yeah, so that was always fascinating to me. And, um, I— it's funny, I actually just put up a TikTok a few weeks ago, um, with the— a little bit of me talking about this from, from the TEDx, and it's got like a million and a half views or something. Like, it's a— this is like a, a thing that, uh, that people, uh, feel very strongly about. So we would have internal candidates, and these would be people who were already at the organization who were putting their hat in the ring for the bigger position. And I noticed over time that these people always left. They always left if they didn't get the job. They always left. And it's not because they were treated poorly. I mean, I'm very proud to say that in my 20 years of doing executive search, we treated internal candidates so well that when they did leave and go take a bigger position somewhere else, Often they called us up and said, I know I didn't get the job at the search you did, but you treated me so well. I want you to do this search also for me, like in my new organization. So I know they were treated well. But the very process of interviewing for that bigger job meant that they literally had to wear the clothes of that role, speak in the voice of that role, answer questions in the mindset of that role. They had to envision themselves in that role. And once they did, They couldn't unsee themselves in that role. And that's the burden of potential that I talk about, is that once we imagine, like they say, like, if you can dream it, you can do it. Like, part of the reason we want to visualize going through the finish, you know, of a marathon is because once you've envisioned that piece of you, it's hard to not see that anymore. And so if you're an internal candidate and you've applied for a bigger job and you don't get it, but you go through the process of thinking about yourself in that job, it's hard to go back to the job you were in before without knowing that there's part of you that's grown a little bit bigger. Like, you just don't fit into your old clothes quite as well. And I think that that's the same thing with all of us. As soon as we see this potential that we have, like, maybe you just sold your first company, maybe you just sold your first tube of lipstick. Like, it could be big, it could be small. It doesn't matter how big the success is. It's just you did something you weren't quite sure you could do. And suddenly you're like, I sold one tube of lipstick. Could I sell 10? Could I sell 100? Could I have 5 people working for me all selling 100? I don't know. Like, what could I be? Because suddenly you see this potential. And here's the thing about your potential. Here's the thing about wonder hell, which I think is so interesting. Wonder hell only shows itself to people who are worthy of it. So if you're in that, you know, external— if you're in that internal job application and you don't really believe that you're worthy of that job, You go back to the same job you were in before, and you're not tempted because you're like, well, whatever, it wasn't meant for me. But if you are worthy of that wonder, hell, if there really is more inside of you, you'll see that potential you, and you won't be able to shake her or him.

Yeah, that, um, it reminds me of accidentally getting upgraded to a first-class plane ticket. You know, I fly so much that I have status. All of a sudden you get upgraded, and then the next time you go to book, you're like, I don't know if I could see myself back in—

So really, you're like, I don't want to be back here with the riffraff. What am I doing? Meanwhile, we're all riffraff. We're just, you know, got status because we live on planes.

Yeah, I know. You talk about flying around on planes a lot in the introduction. You say that your mouth was writing checks that your hustle couldn't cash.

Yeah.

And, or that it has to cash. And I really like that metaphor. You know, you're flying around a lot, right?

I was flying around a lot and I, I, uh, I spent a I spent a huge amount of time when Limitless came out living on airplanes. And there's a story that I tell, actually, the Wonderhell came about because I wrote this Facebook screed of a post, like, in the middle of the night. So I was— I had just come off stage where I was one of the opening speakers for Malala, like, Malala, Malala. And that was a Friday afternoon. Saturday morning was my goddaughter's bat mitzvah. Can't miss Malala. Can't miss my goddaughter's bar mitzvah. So I'm on a red-eye and I'm 50. Okay, so like, I'm too old for red-eyes. Like, it is just— I get on a red-eye and I can't, like, I can't turn to the right for the next 3 days because I've, like, slept funny on my neck. Like, it's just— it's— you're younger, but I just— I got bad news for you about what happens when you get older.

It's coming.

It's coming. Death comes for us all. I'm just saying. So I'm on this red-eye and Because I fly all the time and my clients buy me lovely first class, like, lie flat seats, you know, when I'm, when I'm flying from events, I'm like, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna get on the plane. I'm gonna have a good night of sleep. I'm gonna go to the bat mitzvah. I'm gonna crush it. Gonna do the hora. Everything's gonna be amazing. And then we're sitting at the gate and they're like, yes, we've had some mechanical issues. So we've changed the airplane and they put us on a different plane and I ended up in coach like, wah wah, right? Like, I hate to complain about that, but I'm in this like center seat in coach behind these like next to these, like, 2 giant linebackers who are, like, snoring on my shoulders. And it's 4 in the morning, and I'm like, forget it. I can't fall asleep. Forget about it. I open up my laptop, and I start typing out this, like, screed of a Facebook post that goes something like, it's 4:28 AM, or maybe it's 1:28 AM, or maybe it's 7:28 AM. I don't even know. But somewhere between the blur that was yesterday and the blur that will be tomorrow, 1,200 miles from where I was and 1,200 miles from where I'm going is the space I'm in right now. And the space I'm in right now is wonder hell. Because I'd had this moment where earlier in the week, my book had debuted at number 2 on the Washington Post bestseller list. I had my little selfie with Malala, and I'm on this plane, and I'm all like hopped up like, I'm successful. And I'm sitting on the plane, and I'm so tired in the middle of the night that that space in my brain that normally governs my humility like just disappeared. I like left it back in Vancouver. And I heard this little voice whisper, this thing has legs. This thing has legs. Like, it could be bigger. You could be bigger. And I was like, who is that? Like the voice of God speaking to me. And in that moment, I thought, well, my book debuted at number 2 on the Washington Post bestseller list. How do you get to be number 1? And what about the Wall Street Journal? And what about the New York Times? And who gets to talk to Oprah under the oak tree? Like, she got to pick someone. Why not me? And then I had that moment where I was like, well, what do I have to do to do that? Like, can I imagine it? Is it possible? And that's when the burden of potential walked into my psyche and was like, hey, Laura, what you got for me? Like, are you going to live into this newfound potential that you didn't even know existed last week, last month, last year that I'm now showing you? Right? Like, the little angels in my head are like, oh, like, you can do it. And once you see that, it's like, it is like Wonder Hell is a sneaky bastard because, as I said, like, it only shows itself to people who are worthy of it. And suddenly I was like, well, now the goalposts have changed. Like, I thought that I was like at the finish line, you know, drop the book, it debuts, you do a big speech, you're like, awesome. What I realized was that it wasn't the endpoint, it was just a waypoint. Like, that week, that moment was just a portal to show me everything else I could possibly do. That's what happens when you get stuck on planes. So don't take any more red eyes.

I love that story. I'll tell you, this is— this will sound like I'm making it up for this conversation. But this actually happened to me last night. So I flew from North Carolina back to Boston. And my flight, it wasn't a red-eye. But you know, it arrived after midnight. And I was, I was in an exit row, I was next on the list to get upgraded to first, but there was only X number of seats available. So they, before we take off, they come and tap me on the shoulder and they say, hey Nick, you've been upgraded to first. So they hand me the ticket, I go and I take my seat in first. I walk past everybody. Yeah, that's what's up.

You're like, I'm that asshole.

Yep. They literally come back and they say, we have such bad news. Oh no, we closed the gate, but the person ran up. We're gonna let them on the plane. You have to go back to your seat. So I literally had to walk back to my seat, and the exit row that I was in was not the front exit row, it was like the back exit row. So I had to pass like 1,000 people, and it looked like That is the true walk of shame.

That is the true walk of shame right there.

My ego was literally like, everybody probably thought that I just took this first class seat, and now I'm getting sent back, and I'm not that person. I hope nobody knows me. You know, as the ego steps in a little bit. But yeah, it was—

You're like turning your baseball cap around, putting it really, really low on your face. Oh my God. That's it.

Yeah, it was tough. But next time, maybe I'll just book the seat so that I don't have to go through that.

Well, I mean, maybe. It depends on how much it costs, right? I love it when my clients book me these beautiful first-class seats, but when it comes to me, I'm like, but now I play the game because I'm like, I've got status and I'm like the highest status on every airplane because, you know, I fly, you know, every week. So now I'm like, okay, if I book the coach seat and it's only 72 hours before I'm supposed to fly, if I'm in the 72-hour window and I see that there's 3 seats available in first, can I book coach and know I'm going to get an upgrade? So I play all these games now.

Yeah.

I don't know. I do too. Waste— I waste a lot of time thinking about like where I sit on airplanes. But, you know, if you're going to— if— here's the thing. If people are listening to this and they're like, well, I fly a lot too, or I don't fly a lot too, it doesn't matter, right? Like how you spend your time really matters. So like if I'm going to show up to a client and I need to get on stage and I need to kill it in front of 5,000 people, then it's worth it for me to fly first class because I'm going comfortably. I know I've got space in my overhead.

I don't have to check my bag.

It doesn't get lost. Like, I don't— I get rid of all of that stress. It's actually kind of exhausting. And I think there was a while when I was a young entrepreneur that I wasted a lot of money being cheap. I'm gonna say that again. I wasted a lot of money being cheap. So I spent time at 2 in the morning doing my own invoices. I spent time on the weekends building my own website, like all the things that I was doing, which, by the way, I wasn't even doing well. Like, I make my living with words. Building websites, that's not words, that's code. Doing invoices, that's not words, that's math. Like, I'm not good at code, I'm not good at math, so I would do them and they'd be wrong. The website would look terrible, the invoices would have mistakes in them, so I didn't look great to the outside world. I was losing trust with my clients, and it would have cost me way less money to have somebody do it for me and then spend the time that I was busy fixing the mistakes actually making money doing the stuff I do well. And so I think it's something that a lot of young entrepreneurs do is that we waste a lot of money being cheap when in fact we should think about like, what is the highest and best use of our time and only do that, like lean into that part of what we do and then figure out anything that costs less than what we charge by the hour, pay somebody else to do because it will pay you back in dividends.

Yeah, that transitions so well into my favorite takeaway from the book so far. In your Learning to Play Bigger chapter, you talk about this sort of triangle of profits, flexibility, and impact. And that story is sort of an example of you prioritizing profit, trying to save a little bit of money over personal flexibility and impact. You know, you're not your best self on stage because you're trying to save a couple of dollars and you're sacrificing sleep or whatever the case is.

Yes.

And so when I read that, profits, flexibility, and impact, I had sort of an aha moment. I was just with a couple members of my team the other day and I was telling them about this because I really think right now in the business, I want to prioritize personal flexibility and impact over profit. And yes, that means that the business won't grow as fast as it could if I was sacrificing my weekends and my evenings and not traveling. But I really want the personal flexibility, like it's so important to me right now. So, could you talk a little bit more about how you sort of developed that framework or where you found it?

Yeah. So when I was at the big marquee firm, um, the way executive search typically is done is you charge 1/3 of the first year's cash compensation for anybody that you put in a position. So if I'm doing a search for somebody who's going to make $300,000 a year, the chief strategy officer of the Kellogg Foundation, I'm going to get paid $100,000 to do that search.

Cool.

Awesome. If I'm doing an executive director for a local domestic violence shelter, I'm going to get paid and they're going to get paid maybe $60,000. I'm making $20,000 for that search. So $100,000 fee versus a $20,000 fee. Who do you think my boss wanted me to work on more? Obviously the $100,000 fee. Which search do you think was actually harder? Which search do you think actually mattered more to the organization? It was the domestic violence shelter. Right? So I was disincentivized to work on the thing that had the most impact because I was working on the thing that brought the most profit. And I sat down one day and I was like, I feel kind of smarmy. I feel kind of smarmy about this because it's actually not harder to do the work that's paying us more. It doesn't make any sense. It's upside down. And so I thought, there's got to be a better way to do this work. And so I came up with a better business model. And I walked into my boss's office and I was like, there is a better way. And he was like, there is the door. Right? He basically was like, you can stay. We love you. Like, please stay, keep doing your work. But if you want to do it your way, you're going to have to do it away, right? You're going to have to do it somewhere else. And so I had that moment where I realized I thought I was part of the solution for my clients. I was doing executive search for nonprofits, universities, foundations, advocacy organizations, and I thought I was changing the world. I thought I was helping them cure cancer and solve poverty and create more opportunity. And then what I realized was they're curing cancer and solving poverty and creating more opportunity, and I I'm creating a fatter bottom line for my boss. And once I realized that I wasn't part of my client's solution, that left me in only one place, which is that I was part of the problem. And that became untenable for me. And so I did the Jerry Maguire thing. I left with, like, the fish and the manifesto and the whole thing. I started my own firm. And when I started my own firm, I started it with this idea that instead of the way my boss did it, which is putting profits first, clients second, I would put clients first, knowing that the profits would come. And so I realized that you can make decisions. And also at the time, I was like 11 months pregnant when I had this revelation. So I go home, I have 24 hours of labor and an unplanned C-section, and then I have a 6-week-old baby. And I'm sitting there literally at my kitchen table, baby in arms, and I get a phone call from a friend of mine who I used to work with in the White House, in the Clinton White House. And she was like, yeah, um, I, I heard you had a baby. Like, I mean, that's, that's cool, I guess, but Are you still doing executive search? Because our CEO just left and we need a search. And I was like, I looked at the baby and I looked at my dog and I was like, yeah, I am. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I was like, yeah. And she's like, great, what do you charge? And I was like, $100 an hour. And she's like, great, send me a contract. So literally like one finger, I was like, how to write a professional services contract. I'm like, you know, Googling this. So I sent her a contract and my business was born. So because of where I was in my life and because of where I was in my sort of righteous indignation, I needed to prioritize personal freedom and flexibility. I needed to prioritize my family because I had this baby. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And I wanted to impact— I wanted to maximize impact in the world because that's why I left the big firm in the first place. So I started off doing those 2 things, and every once in a while I would get asked to do something where the profits were going to be huge But it didn't feel right for me. I didn't believe in the organization's mission. It was going to take me away from my family. Like, it just— I just— it didn't— it just— I was getting like organ rejection, organ failure rejection, like thinking about doing it. And so I would say no. Every time I said yes, it ended up being the worst decision I ever made. So I said no. And what I realized over time was that as business owners, we get to maximize 3 things. Profits, flexibility, and impact. And if we make decisions based on these things at random times and random interviews, we are going to feel like we're being pulled in a billion different directions. But if you come up with one, what is the number one thing you're prioritizing? Is it profit? Is it impact? Is it flexibility? It becomes much clearer. And I'll even, Nick, give you 2. You can make decisions based on 2. So for me, it was I wanted to maximize freedom and flexibility. I wanted to maximize impact for my clients, and I knew the profits would come. And here's the kicker. At the end of the day, I made more money every single year than I made any year at that big firm. And when eventually I sold the firm to the women who helped me build it, I made even more money because I was selling it not for profit, but for freedom and flexibility and impact in the world also. So I think if we— if you figure out what really matters to you and you make all your decisions based on those things, The rest of it takes care of itself.

Yeah, it's my favorite takeaway because of all of those reasons that you just mentioned. I'm in the same boat and I've been prioritizing it without having the language to articulate it. So I've been prioritizing flexibility, not only for me personally, but for everybody at BookThinkers and impact for authors, not as much readers anymore. And that was something that I had to articulate and define a little Yes. And then it is funny because profits are, are sort of coming as a result of that. But let me ask you something. Is it okay if somebody prioritizes profit? I mean, it feels—

100%.

Okay.

Absolutely. It's just if you're gonna prioritize profits, you may end up not being able to prioritize personal freedom and flexibility, right? Like these things, they, they're, they're like sort of in a triangle and you can have 2 sides of it, but it becomes very hard when you try to do all You can't have 3 masters. It's just too much. You can't do it. But absolutely. And here's the other thing I'll tell you. Your whole business does not have to be 1 or 2 of these things forever. They can grow and they can change and they can shift. So, you know, I'm 6 months away from being an empty nester. 6 months. Both of my kids are going to be gone. They're going to be in college. I may not need to prioritize personal freedom and flexibility as much anymore. It doesn't matter. Like right now, my youngest is going to be in college in 6 months. I want to spend as much time as I possibly can, right? So if I am leaving to go fly somewhere and speak and be gone for 3 days, I better be getting my full fee because it matters to me. Like, I just— that matters right now because he's going to be gone. After he's gone, I may be like, whatever, I don't need to maximize personal freedom and flexibility. I'm gonna go speak wherever I want to speak, and if it's an organization that I love, then I'll go out of my way to do it. Fine. Like, it may be that my rubric changes. So at every age and at every life stage, we have to ask ourselves, what are the things that matter to us? And so all I'm saying from this is we— you don't have to make— like, you're not writing these things in stone. You're just kind of writing them in pen. And maybe that pen is like erasable pen, but it's like pen. It's not quite pencil, but it's pen for like a little while. Because I think it needs to like dictate whatever this season of your business is. Yeah.

Yeah, you can always scribble it out. And I think that's great. You know, a lot of— I think a lot of my audience, you know, they're either entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs, and they're looking for people like you to help them articulate how they feel. And this subject of wonder, hell, and those 3 variables that you just mentioned, I mean, I haven't read about them in this way before. And so, I think this conversation is going to be new and different. And maybe this is an opportunity real quick to talk about how your book is a little bit different. Why don't you give us your take? How does this differentiate from other books that might talk about success and how to deal with it, entrepreneurship, balance, those types of things?

Yeah, I mean, I just, I, I just don't really want to take it all so seriously, right? Like, I, I want this book to be fun to read. I didn't want it to be like— it's, it is very well researched, there's a ton of research in there, but it's not like academic and it's not like a cheerleader, you can do it. I just want it to be sort of A book where people could drop in wherever they are on this sort of choose-your-own-adventure journey and not have to read it from COVID to cover, but like, oh, this part speaks to me. I'm just going to go to that section. That part speaks. I'm going to go to that section. So it's very different from Limitless, which was like, here's the problem, here's the solution, here's how to change yourself, your work, or your career in order— like, it was like a very linear type of book. And this one is much more of a sort of choose-your-own-adventure.

Yeah, I think this matches your personality really well. I mean, you, you write like you speak. There's a little bit of humor. It's kind of like punchy. You obviously have the language and experience to talk about these things in a serious way, but also in a lighthearted way at the same time. So it's kind of a fun balance for the reader. And you're also telling stories about other very successful people throughout the book and giving readers a different perspective on sort of the same lessons, which I think is cool.

Yeah. I mean, what— like, the reason that it all came about, honestly, is, is when the pandemic happened, I started going live to my audience every day at like 10 a.m. You know, everyone, we're all putting out content, just trying to like be there for our communities. And after like 3 weeks of it, I was like, I'm getting kind of sick of my own voice, right? Like, there's only so many more. Like, I could be like, you know, we've got this. Like, eat a lot of fiber so you've got clean poop so you don't have to use as much toilet paper. Like, there's only so long you can like do the early pandemic thing. So I thought, well, I've got all these other friends who are making content. Why don't I just invite them and we'll just talk together? So I started having these conversations and the conversations all kind of started to go— because this is just what I'm personally interested in— all kind of started to coalesce around this moment for them when everything changed, when they realized that they were made for more, when they could do something bigger, when they decided to leave the business and start their own thing or decided to break the record or be the first of, or like, how did they find the courage and the strength to do that thing? Like, I'm just endlessly fascinated by those stories. And then a year into it, I got that Facebook message. The Facebook screed that I wrote came up as one of my Facebook memories, and I'd completely forgotten all about it. And in the comments of the Facebook memories are a bunch of people saying, like, wonderhell is a great word. And not for nothing, but wonderhell.com is available for $0.99 on GoDaddy. And my publisher for Limit list saying, by the way, Wonderhell would make a great title for your next book. And suddenly I was like, that's the moment. All these people are in Wonderhell. So it was really funny because I was having all these conversations. And thank you, Mark Zuckerberg, I guess, because thank you for Facebook Memories, because I completely forgotten that I'd even written that post. It was just like another Facebook screen of like a bunch of Facebook posts that I write whenever I do. And yeah, so the book sort of came about Because I found myself in wonder hell. I was curious about how all these people got themselves out of it. And then I was like, oh, that's the thing.

Well, I'm happy that you wrote it, obviously. Now, what are some of the other variables that you talk about in this book? Obviously, we're learning how to thrive amidst this wonder versus hell kind of excitement versus anxiety stage that all of us get into. What are some of the other variables that you want to highlight for people who are on the fence? Like, hey, maybe this is a good book for me, maybe it's not. What else could I learn?

Yeah. So I think what's very important to know about Wonderhell is it's written like an amusement park. So we— I did that because, you know, like you go to an amusement park and you're like, it's going to be fun, we're going to have a great time. And then it's like we're going on all the rides and go to all the towns. Then at 3:00 in the afternoon, you're like, the sun is shining, it's really hot, I'm dehydrated, I'm a little sunburned. That corn dog in my stomach is not agreeing with the cotton candy in my stomach and why am I in line for the roller coaster? I hate roller coasters. Like, everyone told me this was going to be fun. Why isn't this fun? Success is kind of the same way. Everyone's like, just go do it. Go on all the rides. Go to all the towns. It's going to be fun when you get there. It's hard work, but when you get there, then you get there and you're like, it's not fun. Why isn't it fun? It was supposed to be fun. And so I decided to put the book in the form of this amusement park. And so there's 3 There's Impostor Town, Doubtsville, and Burnout City. And then each one of the towns has 5 rides. And these rides, as you mentioned the first one, the Imaginarium, right, where you learn to think bigger. Each one of the rides evokes one of the emotions that we have, the tsunami of emotions that come at us as we are experiencing wonder, but also hell. And it's like, how do you deal with this potential, this burden? How do you deal with the fear, with the excitement, with the joy, with the uncertainty, with the potential, the promise, the imposter syndrome, like all of the things that we deal with along the way. And so each chapter, each ride has a couple of stories from different people and has some actionable things that people can put into place today, either sort of changing their mindset or changing the way that they actually operate in their lives or in their businesses. And so what I love about the way that the book came out is That if somebody's picking up the book and they're like, you know, I'm just feeling like I'm just exhausted and I have a lot of burnout, they don't have to look at Impostortown. They can go right to Burnout City. And so the book is sort of written in this way where I hope that it's evergreen, where people can sort of pick it up wherever they are in their journey. Because I got to tell you, Nick, it was a very difficult book to write. It was a difficult book to organize because there's no one story, right? There's no one chronology. There's no one experience about each of us because every one of us at every age and every stage experiences it differently. Like, I thought when I talk to Olympic medalists or I talk to these startup unicorns that they would say, like, well, here's what happened. I had imposter syndrome. I did the work and I got over it. But they didn't, right? Like, every one of them at every age, every stage, each of them continued to have again and again and again imposter syndrome and doubt and exhaustion and anxiety and uncertainty. And it's like there was just no one— like, you don't do this in the beginning of your career and then you have that in the middle of your career and then you have that at the end of your career. It's like, it's just It's just a cyclical journey where on the other side of this wonder hell is just the next one and the next one and the next one after that. And so the only way to write the book was in this kind of choose-your-own-adventure module series because there's no singular journey.

Yeah, and it's fun to read it in that way too. And there's like some fun graphics in the book of like the pathways and stuff like that at the amusement park.

Right, the map. The You Are Here map.

Yeah, I like that. And it's also actionable. So we'll just kind of finish out today's show maybe by talking a little bit about some of the more actionable pieces. Like, I loved when you referenced Todd's alter ego effect, and then you told a little bit about the LGO hero identity that you've created. So at the beginning, when you introduced yourself, you said your friends call you LGO. Why is that? Talk a little bit about this identity. Yeah.

Well, it's funny. Like, when, when, uh, it's— my name is Laura Gassner Otting, which is a lot of name. And, uh, somebody very early on in my speaking career called me LGO. And then I had a friend who sent me an email, and her email was, hey, Marcy, at, you know, her email address, which I won't say to everybody listening to this. And I was like, oh, that's fun. Like, laura.gassner.otting@limitlesspossibility.com. gets, you know, I don't get a lot of emails because people get one or all of those words misspelled.

Yes.

So I was like, heylgo@gmail, right? That works. So I just sort of started using it and it became all of my social handles are Hey LGO. But I'm Laura, right? Like, I'm Laura. I'm a raging introvert who likes to hang out at my house and snuggle my dogs and needlepoint and cook good food for the family that I love. But in public, I'm LGO. Like, I get on stage in head-to-toe yellow, and I tell people how to be limitless, right? Like, I do the thing. And it's kind of— you can't do what I do on stage playing small. I can't get on stage and be like, I believe in you, you're awesome, go for it. I have to be like, I believe in you, right? Like, it's got to be like— I've— I have to have such contagious energy. Yeah. This confidence that people, when I tell them that I believe in them, they're like, she believes in me, so I should believe in me, right? Like, I need to have that. And the, the— I, I hadn't been doing it in the beginning of my speaking career, and then a good friend of mine, Erin King, who wrote a great book called You're Kind of a Big Deal, uh, she called me up one day and she's like, Laura, listen, you're always posting— like, Limitless is yellow, and I was always posting, um, photos about celebrities wearing all yellow, and they're like, #LimitlessYellow. She's like, you're always posting about these celebrities and their limitless yellow. It's time you walk the walk. Why don't you wear limitless yellow on stage? And I said, I don't own any yellow. I look terrible in yellow. I hate yellow. But she said, you have to do it. So I went out and I bought some yellow, head to toe yellow. I walked out on stage the first time wearing head to toe yellow. And here's what I learned. learned, can't play small when you look like Big Bird. You just can't. So I got up on stage, and she also convinced me to tell a story. The very first time I ever told the story of being really, really, really sick in 2012— 2021. Excuse me. And so I told the story about being super sick in 2021, not COVID, but, you know, pretty bad. Didn't think I was gonna see 2022. And I got up on stage, 60 seconds of like being super bold, starting to tell the story and seeing the audience cheering for me and leaning in. And I realized I didn't actually have to be brave for 60 minutes. I just had to be brave for 60 seconds until they gave me that, you know, hug from the audience that they were going to give me so that I could find who I was and then inhabit that person for the next 59 minutes. And so In the book, I talk about Todd Herman and his Alter Ego Effect book and how, like, you know, Stephanie Germanotta has Lady Gaga and, you know, Beyoncé, right? Like, we have all these people who have these personas on stage. I have LGO, right? That's who I am. So I get up on stage and I just, like, I know the person that my audience needs me to be, and I just inhabit that person for those 60 minutes. And it's actually easier to be that person and, and, and sort of have that energy and play that role because it becomes who I am. Like, it, it comes out of my core, but it gives me like a voice to speak in. It gives me that like internal candidate thing where I'm that— I am that bigger-than-life human until it feels like it's a comfortable piece of me.

Yeah, and it's a great way to navigate that wonder hell position that we find ourselves in. Sometimes you need to build an alter ego that can handle it more efficiently and, and can— I don't know, like you're saying, it's, it's in there, it's part of your core, but it comes out and it represents itself for a period of time as something much bigger and broader and more—

And to be clear, like, this isn't a fake it till you make it. Like, I'm not faking being LGO until I am. I am that person. Like, it's coming out of who I am. It's just this, like, this person that's inside of me that's, like, maybe a little timid and maybe a little scared, and I'm not gonna, like, walk into dinner with my family and be like, hello, right? But how do I find that version of myself, the very best version of who I could show up as on stage? And how do I tap into that person and bring them to the fore? And so that's like, oh, LGO, you're up. It's time. Just in the same way that you're like, it's Laura. It's mom time. You need to show up for your kid. And when I show up for my kid, I don't barge into the room and solve their problem. I sit down with them and I say, how are you doing? What's going on? Oh, that's hard. That must be really difficult. Tell me more about that.

Right.

Right? When I talk to my executive coaching clients, I have to kick their ass sometimes. Very different conversation that I have with them than I do with my kids. Right? So I'm already bringing, like, Laura mom, Laura coach, Laura consultant, Laura writer, Laura speaker. Right? So LGO is just one of those versions of me. So I just want to be really clear that, like, this alter ego, this, this person that we find inside of us that we bring to the fore to perform in some parts of our lives. Isn't the fake version of us. It's just one version of us that we're just asking to come forward.

Yeah, I, I have different versions of myself, obviously, as well. Most of us do. And I remember somebody pointing out the difference between my presentation voice, my book review voice, versus my conversational at-home hanging out with friends voice.

Yeah, my kids call that speaker voice. It's mom's speaker voice.

I remember I asked Vanessa Van Edwards, author of a few books—

Yes.

Captivate and Cues— about this subject. And she said, yeah, you have to step into an identity that's more articulate, that demands more confidence, that speaks with authority, that has charisma, because otherwise you'd be less successful in your normal quiet at-home voice. You need to find that.

It's so true. You know, I had— it's funny, I actually spoke at an event with Vanessa in August, and I watched her on stage, and then she and I had dinner afterwards, and we were talking about exactly that same thing where she was like, I'm Vanessa on stage. And then, you know, over tacos, she was like, hey girl, like, what's going on? You know, it's funny. I tell the story also in the book where the first time I— so I've run marathons. I say that even though I'm like, I haven't run in like 6 months, but I have run marathons. And the first time I chose to run a marathon, I had only run 10K up until that point. And I was like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna run a marathon. I don't know how, but I'm gonna do it. Like, I live in Boston. Like, I want to do it. I'm having this midlife crisis. And I go to this event where the coach who's going to be training all of us is, and he gives this incredibly inspiring talk. And then I go up to him afterward, and I was like, Coach Rick, I mean, I don't know if I can do this. Like, I've only run 10K. I ran my first mile of my life, like, 6 months ago, but I signed up. And he looked at me with this, like, Yoda-like stare, and he goes, you can do it. I believe in you. And I'll help. And I looked at him back and I was like, I can do it. You believe in me and you'll help. And he was like, yes. And I went, yes. And I walked away and I went to my car and I was like, what the hell just happened? But he had that voice, right? He had so much confidence, maybe in me, but certainly in his coaching ability of me, right? Like, he'd seen me a million times before. Like, I wasn't unique. He's incredible. But he had so much confidence that I was like, okay, I'm just going to do whatever the hell he says and it's going to be fine. Because he wasn't Rick. He was Coach Rick in that moment. And so we have to bring these versions of ourselves to what we do. And in Wonderhell, what I really want people to know is that version, that potential you that you see that's out there, that's like, hello, Nick, I'm here. Come get me. Like, you can be that person. We just have to decide that we want to be that person and see it not for the hell that it is, but for the wonder of how amazing it is that we actually get that opportunity.

Yeah, that was powerful. I'll have to go back and listen to that again. I think it's, I think it's very true. I think that a lot of people are going to listen to what you just said and find a ton of value in it. And it's one of the reasons to read this book. I know we're coming up at the end of our time here. I'll just kind of tell everybody But I loved the sections in the book about forgiveness. I loved when you wrote about impeaching the governor, taking action, sort of the span of control piece. So there's a lot of other stuff to unpack. But because we're getting to the top of the hour, why don't you tell everybody a little bit more about where they can find you, where they can find the book? What are some of the next steps?

Yeah, so as I said, my name is Laura Gassner Otting. All my good friends call me LGO. So you can find me on all the socials @heylgo, H-E-Y-L-G-O. The book is at wonderhell.com. And of course, Amazon, Barnes& Noble, Bookshop, anywhere fine books are sold.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Well, thank you for having me, Nick. It's been great fun.