The KEYS to the PERFECT Relationship | with Kathryn Gordon

And it's going to let people see that you're going to go down. There's going to be bad times. But I'm telling you, if you can do those 4 things, I promise you, you will have a relationship like you never knew you could.

All right, Kathryn, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. We're so So excited to talk to you about your book, Relationship Grit, and get to know you a little bit better. I'd love to kick off this podcast with a bit of a tough story, but one that I think will really show your commitment to your relationship with John, your husband, and the understanding that none are perfect.

Mm-hmm.

Early in your marriage, John had struggled with some infidelities, and he kept that from you for a while. But instead of taking the usual route of divorce when you found out, you decided to work through it. Why did you decide to keep the marriage together in spite of that? And how did that affect your view of John?

Great.

We're going to go right into it.

Right into it.

Okay with that. First of all, I just want to say, in our relationship, John was always the prude, and I was doing the bikini models, and I was crazy wild and definitely more open. And if anybody was going to cheat on anybody, it would have been me cheating on him.

Right.

When he ended up dropping the bomb on me, and I'll tell you what happened. So, you know, fast forward, we were 14 years into our marriage, and I had actually went out to lunch with some girlfriends. And one of my girlfriends starts talking about, you know, her— she found out her husband's cheating on her. And then another girlfriend tells me that her and her husband were getting a divorce. And This couple were like the model couple. We played tennis with them. We did, you know, we went out with them. They were always holding hands, always public displays of affection. And I was like, what? Because at that time in our marriage, while we weren't having issue issues, we weren't connected. I wasn't feeling connected to John at all. He was very, very driven, very, very motivated on, you know, his business and his speaking. And so he was gone a lot, and I was just home raising the kids. So I already wasn't feeling connected to John, but then he drops this bomb on me. So, so what ended up happening was we're walking on the beach, and I'm, you know, sharing with him about our friends, and he literally stops dead in his tracks, turns, looks at me, and says, I have something to tell you. And then proceeds to tell me, I cheated on you when we first got married. What? So, you know, I had always said my dad was not faithful to my mom, and I'd always said, like, if that ever happens to me, I'm out of here. And so, but that's not how it worked out. You know, once you have children and you're in this relationship, you've got a lot of other things to consider. But I will tell you, I was gonna leave him. I wanted to cheat on him myself. I wanted him to feel what it was like, you know, to have somebody hurt you like that. And it's the oddest thing. For some reason, I did. I had a couple of opportunities. I was going to cheat on him. I'll just tell you that he hates when I say this, but I didn't do it for whatever reason. I didn't do it. And he worked really, really hard To keep our marriage together. So what ended up happening is we're headed for divorce. I'm gonna divorce him, and he just keeps trying. He's resolving to stay in our marriage, which is, by the way, the R in grit. And he's on a plane. He sits next to this guy and starts pouring his heart out, saying like, "Oh my gosh! This happened." I I. I ended up telling her. I felt like it was something between us, and I had always wanted to just tell her, and I thought it was the right opportunity. And I mean, my gosh, it happened so long ago. I didn't think she'd act like this. And, you know, but she's going to leave me. And the man said, listen, something similar happened in our relationship, and I came up with a prayer, and I suggest you come up with a prayer. And you start saying that prayer every day together. And so at that time, my husband had started to— well, he had really changed his life in that my husband was Jewish and I was Christian, but like, we both were not. We were just more New Age. And through a series of events, he started to like learn more about Christianity. And he actually learned about it through his— our Buddhist healer. We had this Buddhist energy healer that we went to and they they would get into these conversations and these dialogues. And this healer ended up like, they were talking about Buddha, they were talking about the different religions, and he got to Jesus and he's like, I mean, like, being a follower of Jesus is like, it's like spiritual cheating. It's like you can just give it all, give it all to him and you're done. And so John was fascinated by that. So anyway, he, he started on his trek to being really a Christian without, you know, he's just seeking. And so he was bringing that into the house. And so coming up with this prayer, this God prayer, was kind of right in line with where he was, which is also why he had wanted to share what had happened, because he was doing all these great, you know, things in his life, trying to be a better person. And it was the one thing that he kept as a secret that he really wanted to share with me. So anyway, he came up with a prayer. And do you want to hear what the prayer is?

Yes.

Okay. So it's, God, we invite you into our marriage and family to love us, to heal us, to unite us, to strengthen us so we can grow strong together and serve you together and raise children that glorify and honor you. And that prayer is in the book. I don't know if we ended up putting the last part for our kids, but we added that for our kids. And so John started saying that prayer every single day, even if he was traveling. He would call, get the kids on the phone because I was not talking to him, and he would say the prayer. After a while, I started to memorize the prayer, but I was not about to say the prayer out loud. Like, I was not going to give him the satisfaction of that. And then one night, we're laying in bed, and by, you know, just— I never wanted him to touch me. He would try to grab my hand. He reached for my hand, and I actually Grabbed his hand, and I started to say the prayer with him. And that was the night that I had decided to stay together, like that I knew I wanted to be with him. And so that kind of started us on our own journey. And we also brought our kids into that—not the infidelity part—but we started having family meetings. We came up with a. It's our, our fam— it's our family, um, our family motto, and it's the Gordons love and serve God in all that we, all that we do. And so that every time we would have our family meeting every week, if there was some issue going on, you know, my son was doing something, or my daughter, we just say, is that a part of our, our mission statement? Does that— is that loving and serving God? So that was a really great thing. So But yes, he did cheat on me. But what ended up happening in that— and by the way, like, again, he hates to even talk about it, but he knew that he needed— we needed to put it in the book. So when we wrote this book, by then you got to remember, John was already a very successful bestselling author. And we sent the book to his brother and his brother read it. And his brother was like, man, you can't, you can't put this book out there. Like, people think of you as like the pot— this positive. And, you know, I'll give him a lot of credit. He said, you know what, this book is gonna help so many marriages, and it's gonna let people see that you're gonna, you're gonna go down, there's gonna be bad times, but If we can give them the tools, which we do in this book, if you read it right, so to lay a foundation for your family and for your relationship, you know, you can get through anything. And so we did. We sent it out. And funny enough, we wrote the book. We— the reason we wrote the book, you know, it's one thing to go through it, but I kept running into women who just for whatever reason would stop me and they didn't know anything about what John had said. Said to me, but would stop me like in Target, at the grocery store, and start pouring their heart out about, you know, their husband was doing this, or I left my husband. I, you know, so I kept hearing these things, and I would literally stand there in Whole Foods, you know, pretty much counseling these women, like really going, going through their issues. And a lot of common themes started to pop up, and one of them was basic communication. And I would say, oh, did you tell him that? Did you guys talk about that? And the answer was always no. So there would be couples that had been married for 25 years, and they still really didn't even know how to communicate with each other. And so that, that was a basic thing missing. And so John has a quote. And it's where there's a void in communication, negativity will fill it. And that quote came about really as he was working with companies and coaching leaders. But it applies for all of us, right? I mean, if there's a void in communication in your relationship, you're going to go most the time negative, right? I mean, think about it. When we're mulling over something or we're thinking, Do we, do we ever like, are we, are we going, gosh, I just know, you know, you think in the positive. No, you're like, oh my gosh, something's wrong. They don't like me. They're, you know, there's— we always go negative. I don't know why. But so, like, in the book, that's one of the things that I suggest people do is start asking your partner, like, on a scale of 1 to 10. How well do I communicate? And then what would make it a ten? So communication huge. So I went off on a whole thing, Luke. I don't know what else you want to know. I could keep going. I could keep going.

I love it. There's so much. There's so much to unpack. I think I just want to go back maybe just a little bit because you know it's such a it's infidelity cheating. It's a it's unfortunately it's a common thing and it. most often leads to divorce. And I'm just wondering, like, for you and John, like, what, what do you think was the, the main difference for you versus other couples that do go the route of divorce?

Yep. Um, great question. And I talk about this a lot. So, you know, John did confess his infidelity, and, um, it really boiled down to him wanting To keep us together and being willing to do whatever it took to make that happen. Now, what were some of the things that he did? And I, I talk about this a lot because the phone— think about the phone. That's a big deal. Is your phone private? Right? Like, you know, what do you— oh, it's my privacy. These are all things. It's, it's, you know. Can your can your partner open your phone and just see your text? It's a big deal. And so one of the things that John did trying to get me back was just whatever I asked for. Well, he did a couple things. So one of the things he did was he put notes all over the house constantly. Every time I woke up, I love you. You're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. I mean. And I'm not saying that he did this just for a week or two. Like, he's a D1 athlete by nature. He just did not give up. He just kept putting those notes around. I would not talk to him. But the other thing he did was when I was feeling again, like, insecure or I didn't trust something, I'd just say, hand me your phone. And I'm not proud of that. So let me just tell you. I am not proud of the fact that I did that, and I am not recommending that people do that. But for me, that's really kind of what was happening at the time. But no matter what, he would just hand over his phone. No matter how many times I asked him, okay, tell me again what happened with this woman. Like, what did you do? You know, I'm sure he wanted to go like, oh my God, I keep— you know, enough already. He never did that. He would answer my questions. And so slowly it started to build the trust back again, you know. And so I think if he had not done any of those things, certainly not been courting me again, you know, being irritated when I wanted to ask questions, being secretive about his phone or his email. And again, like I said, I'm not proud of that. I don't like it. It felt really icky at the time. But it's also kind of— it did give me peace of mind. And so those were the things that happened. And so we were slowly able to, you know, start mending, start working on some things. We came up with boundaries. So it was a process. I mean, it didn't happen overnight. And, you know, John Gordon will tell you he's still paying for it this day. I'm sure he is. Every time I want that big old diamond, I'm like, ah, ah, no, I'm just kidding.

That is funny. Yeah, John's not going to want to listen to this one back. We, we exposed that, uh, he was a Jewish guy that became a Christian by listening to a Buddhist, and that he was— he, uh, had the infidelity. But I'm curious.

He does it all the time. I mean, he, he actually shares the same stories. He just— he doesn't like to harp on it, you know. He doesn't like to talk about it too much, but certainly if you bring it up, he will share it because he knows it's important.

Yeah, yeah, I think the vulnerability is incredibly important, and it sounds like lack of communication and infidelity are 2 of the reasons that people end up losing their marriages and getting divorced. But I'm curious, what are some of the other major reasons that people end up separating, and what are some of the solutions to those problems?

Yeah, they don't invest in their relationship. You know, um, a lot of times we get married and we're so busy with our careers, we're so busy with having children, that we stop investing In the person that's closest to us. All right, so you know I realize what we're really talking about is my grit framework. So let's recap that. Okay, so we talked about G God. We talked about bringing God into the relationship. We came up with our prayer. We have our family meetings. We have our family mission statement. And so the next letter, which is R, is resolve. And I told you that John. Really resolve to work on our relationship, to get me back, to win me back, and and for us to have a a strong relationship. And so you have to be willing to to to to stay in it and not just jump ship, right? So many times people think the grass is greener on the other side, especially when things get hectic, when there's little babies at home, and you know you go off to your office or you go off on you know, and it just seems so much more alluring. But it's not. You know, no matter where you go, there you are. So most of the time you go somewhere else, you're going to take your same problems. And so you got to resolve to stay in your relationship and just work on it. And that's where the I— so you guys didn't even know you were doing this. That's— or maybe you did. That's where the I for invest comes in, is that you have to invest in the relationship. And I liked to say, you know, it's kind of like you want to be fit, right? What do you do to be fit? Do you just go, okay, I want to be fit? No, you got to go to the gym, you got to work out, you got to plan your meals, right? So it's the same with your relationship. And so there's a study by John Gottman that says that couples that invest small amounts of time, small sacrifices In their relationship are 85% more likely to stay together, and so it doesn't have to be these huge you know things that you're doing. It's little things, and I'll give you an example of that. So John, my husband, is a writer, and you know he's been writing. He's wrote wrote wrote a newsletter for the last 21 years every Monday. So it never fails that I'm in my house. You know, we're doing— I'm doing something. I'm on the other side of the house, and I'll hear, Katherine, can you come here? And I know what he's gonna ask me, and I gotta stop what I'm doing and go in there because he wants me to read his newsletter for the week. And, you know, give my— and, you know, definitely there's times when I was like, oh my God, you know, I don't wanna. And I realize it means so much to him. Like he's asking me to come read, you know, like, so I stop what I'm doing. It's a small investment. It's an inconvenience a lot of time. So it's small investments in the relation or in the relationship that reaps such big, big rewards. Okay, so that's G, God, R, resolve, I, invest, and the last letter is T, and that's together. You have to do it together. And so I also like to say that the T is for team. Remember, you're on the same team because that's the other thing that happens. I bet you've been out with some friends and you heard your guys badmouth, saying something, but like badmouth their girlfriend or their wife. It's kind of a thing. No, it's like you got to remember you're on the same team because when you're not, you're keeping score. Right? And both of you are gonna lose. And so you've gotta do things together. But it's really important to remember it's not gonna be equal. Like, there's gonna be times that you're giving a lot more than them, or vice versa, right? When John was starting out on his career, I, I was giving a lot into that, you know, into him at that time. Fast forward, kids were in middle school. It was a really, really busy time. I actually asked John to come home, stop speaking so much, and help us. And, you know, at first he was like, okay, this is so easy, but it's the daily grind. And so he came, invested into the relationship, and did it with me together. And so that— I'm telling you, if you can do those 4 things, bring God into your relationship, resolve to work on your relationship, Invest in your relationship and remember that you're doing it together on the same team. I promise you, you will have, you will have a relationship like you never knew you could.

That's amazing. I love that framework. And before we hit play on this podcast, I had told you that, you know, I'm 9 years going on 10 years of marriage. And I wish I had this book before I got married, because, or at least as I was getting married, because it would have saved us a lot of headache we had. difficulties. The first 3 to 5 years of marriage were very, very hard for us. We got married young. And when I read through this book, I was like, man, this would have just been so great to have just this framework to how you deal with relationships and the struggles that you have. I'm curious about, you know, I've heard you talk about you're in your second act. You feel like you're in your second act. And I'm curious about how you and John, I guess, dealt with him being like really in the spotlight and then you not being in the spotlight for so long? Because I know that so many women— I mean, my wife, she sometimes struggles with that with me. She's a stay-at-home mom and like I'm the one that's kind of in the, the front line a lot of the times. And she struggles, she struggles with that a bit. So I'm curious like what your advice is around that and how you keep supporting someone and almost like feeling like you're taking a back seat.

Oh my gosh, this is such a good question. And so you have to remember, When I met John, I was modeling, I was doing bikini ads, I was number one in sales. I was like doing every social event in Atlanta. I was, I was a mover and a shaker, if you want to call it that. And so when I met John, I was kind of the one doing that and he was just getting started. And yeah, I never thought that I would be the person to take a backseat. I had watched my mom and dad, my dad You know, was a Navy— naval aviator and was unfaithful. And my mother took a back seat, and I watched how that wreaked havoc on her. And so I was just like determined that I would never be that woman. And it's so— it's funny that it turned out that way. And I think it did because of this. He never ever made me feel bad about my role. That's the one thing I will say through all the things we went through and all the fights. He never ever turned to me and said, "Well, you're not making money," because that would have been a really huge deal. And he did honor my role as somebody that was home providing a safe place for him and our children. Yeah, there were definitely times every once in a while where I'd be like, man, you know, what, what am I doing? You know, when it was really, really hard. But obviously now, you know, 26 years later, I look back and I think, you know, that was the best decision that I could have made for our family and not one that I think everybody has to make. There are certainly couples who are both in the workforce or both movers and shakers, and they can make it happen. But I— you, you have to have respect, like, first and foremost, and remember that you're not competing against each other. You're on the same team. And here's another thing I find, and I love to tell people this. is that make sure that the best thing that your partner hears about themselves comes from you. It's funny, I said that on the Today Show when we went on. This was during COVID and it just— I didn't realize it was such an aha moment for so many people. But I guess, you know, sometimes when you're in the grind and you're both kind of going back and forth, you kind of forget. But You need to let them hear how great they are, how great you think they are. But anyway, to go back to what you're saying, Luke, yeah, it was, it was trying at times. But obviously, like, like I said, I am on the other side. And he now, I mean, God bless him, really does just, you know, always push me out there. And funny enough, but here's, here's the funny thing. And I just had this epiphany the other day. I started doing so many things. that I started to feel like I wasn't doing any of it really, really well. I mean, I started my podcast and wrote the book and I started speaking. I'm doing workshops and wait, I'm going to do a course. Next thing you know, I've had no time and then I'm having to hire more people. And I sat and thought for a minute, I'm like, the heck am I doing? What's really important? So now I'm kind of I'm at a phase where I'm like, okay, I'm actually gonna, you know, cut down on how many podcast interviews I do. I wanna really write this book. So, you know, it just keeps changing. So, yeah, the whole work— working together can be like today. John has 3 podcasts. I have 3 podcasts. Where do we go? He didn't relegate me down here, by the way. You know, I, you know, I was like, I'll go downstairs. You know, he would've totally let me take it up there. But, you know, It's definitely a partnership. So, you have to do it together.

One of the— so, you know me, I got married earlier this year in May, and we're thinking about kids next year and kind of getting into that next step of our relationship. And one of the things that we do together every morning right now is we walk the dog and we talk. And that could be as short as a 15-minute walk, as much as an hour walk together in the morning. And so what I'm going to do when we go on our longer walks is have her read a section of the book while I'm driving, and then we could talk about it while, while we're on our walk. So I'm really excited to try that out because when I hear Luke, uh, say that he wishes he read this in the first couple years of his marriage, I'm, I'm taking that advice and I'm going to implement it. So, uh, next time we have you on the show, maybe Luke, we can invite our wives.

Yes. So that's what's so great about the book is it is such quick Little reads, and actually couples do that a lot. I normally hear when we get to bed at night, he'll read one you know thing from John, and I'll read some you know. So it's it's easy. And in the back of the book, there are tips. So I give eleven tips, and then John does. But here's the great thing, and I really need to make this into a course, and I haven't. There is a free action plan that you can get. You can download it if you bought the book. You just go in and. On the website, it's relationshipgritbook.com, and you can download. I'm telling you, it's like I had somebody do it. It's really impressive. I need to convert it, but I just haven't. So for now, it's a—I mean, literally, it's like a whole therapy. It could transform your your marriage. I promise it gives you. And then on my website, I've got all kinds of free resources. I've got there's a gratitude, a relationship gratitude journal. I started getting couples, you know, asking me like, what is a quick— if the husband— I hate to say it, normally it's the husband— is not as willing to read the books or, you know, invest like the woman is, what are some things that they can do? And so I came up with a little gratitude journal. It's literally 4 prompts that, you know, right before you go to bed, you can just ask each other. And so that's the connection part. So I also have the 4 C's in the book, which is communication, connection, commitment, and care. And actually, John has them in several of his. It's all throughout our books. But, um, and so you talked about that. You take a walk and you connect. So important, right? And it's such a missing link for so many people because you really, you can't connect if you're not communicating. So I love that.

Yeah. Well, very true. All right. We're at our half an hour mark. So 2 rapid-fire final questions, and we will have you back for another show because I know Luke probably only got to one of his 25 questions today.

Well, I will tell you real quick, I'm writing another book and I can tell you all about why if we, you know, talk again. But it's— I don't know what the title is yet, but it is on the secrets to a great sex life. And when I say that, this is not a book about Physical positions, anything. It is a book about monogamy, intimacy, connection. It's coming up a lot for me. I've been out a lot talking to people. It keeps coming up like you know issues with connection and intimacy. So stay tuned for that one because that one's going to be really good. I've got the outline. I've got the outline. So I'm working on it. But go ahead.

Give me my fire.

Rapid-fire questions.

Well, we each have one. So, here's my question. Over the last 10 years, what book have you gifted the most? And let's exclude your book and Jon's books. So, what book written by another author have you gifted the most over the last 10 years?

Okay.

I think it's got to be Whole30, which is not a spiritual book, but just, you know, on health. Is that a bad answer?

No, it's a great answer.

Because I was doing— I kept sending it to people. Of course, as soon as we're done, I'm going to think of something so much better. But yeah, for now, I'm going to say Whole30.

That's all right. It's still a great book. Wow. Well, this has been so much fun. I have really enjoyed learning from you. I have so— like Nick said, I only got to a couple of the questions that I wanted to ask. So many more.

Oh, me too.

I wanted to— there was all kinds of stuff I wanted to ask about being a parent and how your kids feel about you talking openly about your sex life and all those things. So very cool. This has been fun. This is my final question.

Okay.

That is, you pass away and all the information that you've put out disappears. You don't have any courses, you don't have your website, you don't have your books, but you can leave the world with a single piece of advice. What would it be?

Be yourself. Be yourself, especially in this day and age. You know, you get on social media and it's like, oh, I should be doing this and I should be doing that. And it's like, no, you know, you have something unique about yourself. Just be yourself. So, and I'm, I'm, I'm actually writing a book on that too. I am because—

We'll have you on every time you put out a book.

I'll tell you, I gotta, you know, again, That's a part of me clearing out my schedule to be able to actually get these things on, get these things written. So, yeah.

Well, I love that advice, and it's often a lot easier said than done, but I appreciate that. All right. So, this is the final, final question, which is, where can our listeners go? What can they do to find you and your books and all the resources?

My website's katherineforreal.com. My podcast is Katherine For Real. I'm on Instagram @katherinegordon. And you can get the book on Amazon, you know, Relationship Grit. And you can go to the relationshipgritbook.com website. I mean, you can also get it through there, but that's where you can get the free action plan that you have to go through relationshipgritbook.com. But any of my other free downloads, you can go and get to my website. The gratitude journal. I've got 5 ways to fight less, 3 trust breakers, 3 trust builders. Yeah. Some good stuff.

Perfect. Well, we'll link all that in the show notes, but really appreciate your time today, Katherine. This has been an absolute blast. Can't wait to have you on again. Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you.