Unlocking Human Potential by Being a Generous Leader with Joe Davis

I'm a big believer in ask questions, listen to learn. You know something, Nick, that I don't know. When I know what you know and we put those together, we're going to get a better answer. That's just a fact. Now, one of us may have to change a little bit, or both of us, but we get a better letter. If I assume I've got the answer and what you think is wrong, heaven help me. And essentially, that was that Google interviewed 80,000 managers. So, that's how big they are. Or they researched 80,000. And the top performers, as you know, performing as well as staff like them and all that stuff, and were basically great coaches. Great coaches, they had to engage. And how'd they engage? They ask questions and they listen, ask questions and listen, which is not very hard.

Joe Davis, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. I'm excited to dive into your book, The Generous Leader. And here's my first question. On page 15, you reemphasize a point. It says, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of giving this help without the thought or benefit to oneself and doing it with the reflexivity it requires, which is how I interpret this definition. I do believe that the essence of the giver must be completely authentic. Why is this a point that you feel like you have to hammer home? What are people missing today in their leadership?

I think, you know, I think the problem is if you are doing it really because trying to develop or push somebody or demand something from someone for your benefit directly, they know it in 2 seconds. Actually, they know it in a nanosecond. And then sure, they may do it if they don't want to lose the job, if they're feeling pressure here or there, but they're not doing it inspired to perform at their best. I believe that. So, that's why I stress that so much. And the thing though you got to remember is if you do push your team, and I mean push them, push them with support, push them with development, all that so that they perform at their best, guess who wins? Your team. Which guess who wins? Oh, you win. And you win with doing nothing other than making sure they're really performing. Now, I shouldn't say nothing. You have to deliver on your job. You have to have a vision. There's a lot of things you have to do to be a good business person. But if you really want to get the best out of them, you can't be thinking it's all about you. Yet you will benefit. You will benefit. So it's okay to remember that, you know, but don't let that be the driver.

Yeah. So it's sort of the second priority, right? The first one is that you're trying to be authentic. You're trying to push where needed. You're trying to, you're trying to help the other person succeed. But at the end of the day, that will also help you succeed as a leader.

Yeah, of course. I mean, that's funny. When I ran the West Coast for BCG, the West Coast was fine performance, but fine isn't BCG. So, it kind of underperformed for years.

Right.

And I went out there and fixed it. So, whatever, it doesn't matter. But it was interesting because the executive committee said, well, this is amazing, Joe, because you're doing better and the West Coast is doing better, but all of your people are actually performing higher too, better too. I thought, well, that's the point, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't work with the whole— the only reason the West Coast has turned around is because all those people are performing at a different level. level. So, that is the point. And they said, well, that's pretty cool. And they actually said, if it was only just you or some short-term thing or you sold more work than anybody else, it wouldn't last.

What I like about your leadership style and how you communicate in the book is that you do recognize things have changed over the last 10, 20, 30 years. The average person today is looking for a workplace and a leader that cares and that serves them. But at the same time, you're not fully into the servant leadership and like completely forget about business analytics and goals and KPIs. You're like, no, we need to push, but we also need to care and be authentic at the same time. And I think in today's servant leadership culture, oftentimes that's missed. Like, yeah, you're leaning into being empathetic, but you're also missing the fact that you're running a business and that you have to have high standards. And so it's so great that you've been able to find a way to communicate both at the same time.

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. It's actually easier because, of course, as a leader, if you're not performing, guess what? You lose your job. So, that doesn't work so well. I'm sorry. I think servant leaders probably understand all of that in the true sense of the word. I was talking to a guy, Joaquin Duato, CEO of J&J. Pretty interesting. It's a big giant company. And this guy's— he's my age, actually. He's a little bit younger. He said to me, he said, Joe, as a leader, You have to, as a leader, you have to remember outcomes matter. And if you ever forget that, blank. However, the best leaders understand the outcomes only come through unleashing the traits and the capabilities of your team and unleashing their true human capabilities. That is when you get the best outcomes. That was pretty interesting for a CEO because, you know, CEO of a big company can, hey, I got a strategy, I just push my people. This guy understood, no, no, no, they all have to be humming for us to really deliver outcomes. But don't forget, outcomes matter, which— Yeah, yeah.

Well, you just used a word that's interesting. You said human potential, and they are humans. And you talk a little bit in the book, kind of early in the book, that when COVID hit, you had to communicate this email to everybody to sort of acknowledge the situations that they were in. Be empathetic and be human. Be vulnerable. Remember that your entire self is working within the business and their entire selves are in the business. It's important, I think, to integrate what you do professionally with who you are as a human outside of work. Tell everybody about how long it took you to write that email.

Yeah, well, yeah, you clearly read the book. So, that was a 45-minute thinking about it, writing it email. And I think it's like 90 words or something, you know, but it's, you know, a lot of things. It's interesting. A lot of things went through my mind. I mean, I woke up at 4:30 in the morning. I mean, I think about when I was running North America, I thought about my people a lot, good or bad, whatever. That's what I do. And I, you know, here we are in the throes of something no one understands. And I wanted to say something to everybody. But first off, first off, you send a note at 4:30, they all think, oh crap, he's up at 4:30. I have to be up at 4:30. So, there was a little bit of that. And then who am I as a senior partner? I've been at BCG for 30-plus years. to have a clue what anyone's life's like, you know. But I, you know, but I could feel it. So I could feel it. And then also, you send a note like this to all your colleagues, you know, the other partners think, oh gosh, do I now have to think like that? And actually, I would probably think yes. But that wasn't the intention of the note. The intention was to touch people in a moment that the uncertainty— I mean, we're starting to forget COVID. But if you think back, we were all pretty damn uncertain. And some were scared to death, others weren't. But uncertainty was undoubtedly a question. It was amazing too. I sent it at 5:15 East Coast time. I had responses in 45 seconds, which means somebody else is up thinking about this stuff or working, but I don't know if they're working on that. So, it was pretty amazing. And it was, you skimmed it, but talking about, I don't know if you live alone or 2 kids or 2 dogs or 2 kids tripping over 2 dogs, everyone can relate. Oh, that's my life. We're all crammed in this little apartment. with the dogs and the kids trying to survive.

And tell everyone how many people you sent that email to.

7,000.

7,000. That's a lot of human beings.

Yeah, it's interesting. Yes, I know. Yeah. I mean, yeah. No, well, you know, it's— I don't know if you saw that video that Arne Sorensen did, the CEO of Marriott, in the middle of this whole thing. It's a very famous video. He was dying of cancer. He was in the middle of chemo. So, he's bald. He had his tie out of skew. Now, he had 80,000 people, but it's a deeper version of this. But he got on video to talk to all 80,000 'cause they were closing hotels. So everybody was being furloughed. That was a little more serious. But it was equal. It was very powerful and very vulnerable to 80,000 people. But they needed to hear from their leader and they needed him to be real, not be— well, I was also talking to Scott Kirby and he was the CEO of United. And he told his team, I don't know when we're gonna fly again. And all the executives, you can't say that. They said— he said, what do you want me to say? I mean, who knows when we're going to fly? I can't just go, oh, don't worry, in 92 days we'll be up in the air. So, you know, this honesty all of these men were willing, or people were willing to display, was very important to people in times like that, in times of uncertainty.

Yeah, you talked— you did talk about that in the book, the importance of video, how that communicates. You need to communicate with different tools, right? And, uh, you know, you obviously wrote a great email and it reached and impacted a lot of people, and you detail generally some of the responses in the book. And again, that's another example of you're showing up, you're showing that you care, but at the end of the day, it's still about results. And when you pour into your people, they will perform better. There's a stat that I want to read on page 22 that I highlighted in here as well.

Okay.

It says a Willis Towers Watson study showed that the greatest driver of employee engagement worldwide is if people feel their managers and organizations have genuine concern for their well-being. To show that concern, you have to be visible. You have to connect. So, what advice do you have for leaders in the audience who are trying just to delegate as much as possible to free up a little bit more space in their calendar? How can they also make sure at the same time while they're working on the business that they stay connected in the business at the same time?

Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, a few things on that. I do think, and I hear you on time, But I do think it's worth taking some time to connect with people with whom you might not normally, especially if you're more senior, one-on-one. I mean, I had a friend who told me, Joe, you don't know what you're talking about. You know, you have a 7-bedroom house. And she said, you got to call some of the junior people. I got on the phone with somebody, or video, Zoom. He was on his bed. So what are you doing on your bed? So, well, Joe, I have an apartment with a bedroom, a living room that blurs into the kitchen. One week my wife gets the you know, the coffee table on the couch and I'm the bed. Then we switch. That's their room. 3 rooms, probably smaller than my bed. So I shouldn't say that, but, you know, it was very eye-opening to me. So I do think you need to spend— but then I think it's, it's not that hard. I mean, you've got to understand where they're coming from is the point of that first message, but it's not that hard to connect with people with the various media, you know. venues you now can use. I mean, this venue, Zoom, has changed the world. I mean, you know, I did a lot of quote-unquote town halls during that with Zoom, and people felt connected with them. So I think, you know, I hear you on delegate, delegate, but if there's important messages, I still think it's on the leader to communicate those messages. And then it was interesting because I said do it in the way they operate, because I don't like Slack, but a lot of young people use Slack now. Now, fortunately, I'm now no longer be guilty. But yeah, well, the only thing I said is, okay, but does something get to go away? Because you want me to use text, email, WhatsApp, and now you want to add another one. Which one goes away? They said, oh, nothing goes away, Joe. I said, well, this isn't— anyway, but, you know, find the vehicle with which you can connect with them. I mean, it's not even to say it takes some time, sure, but as a leader, that's your job, is to connect and inspire. That's one of your jobs. I mean, sure, set the vision, set the strategy, Meet with customers. There's 1,000 things, but it's the team that's going to get all that done, all the work done for you, not you.

And this was a small point in the book, but I thought a lot about it as I was reading and reflecting on your book. You talked about, as you do communicate as a leader, you need to trim your word count. And you say a Gallup poll found that 70% of employees want shorter communications at work. And there was a quote that a mentor of yours gave you that said, all wasted words that greatly diminish your message and your impact. And, uh, reminds me of something a mentor once told me, Joe. He said, you should be a surgeon with your words. Surgeons don't make extra cuts while performing surgery.

Wow.

And leaders shouldn't communicate with unnecessary language. It's not, it's not needed. And I think a lot about that. Sometimes if I write an email, I'll put it in ChatGPT and I'll say, make this 30 or 40% shorter. And that way it gets read more likely, at least.

Yeah, I have a rule, emails like that, it had to fit You know, on one, on the phone, one thing you can't, the minute they have to scroll, they may or may not finish your note. So you better have what matters in the first sentence or just get the whole darn thing in that one little screen. Well, I think Adam Grant did studies on how many words we hit per, you know, hit us per quarter or something. And it's in the millions. That's just, yeah. Well, we all know, yep, shorter is better. And then I also said, though, you know, say the key thing 3 times.

Yes.

3 times. And I like my little stories. The first time they sort of heard you, but they're trying to figure out what the game is. Second time they didn't hear you because they're thinking about what happened last night at home with their kids. And then the third time, oh, that's what they're saying now, you know. So somewhere fit the key message in, not in the short little note, but if you're talking to groups, etc., fit the key message in 3 times.

And did you say that— did you say you used an example? Was it ice skating or something like that?

Yeah, I was going to tell you that story, but I decided— yes, a friend of mine told me that she was watching the Russian ice skating team on the Olympics, and she said it was stunning because she was thinking about me saying 3 times. She goes, the judges said, now if you know— or the TV guy— if you notice, they will do this unbelievable move 3 times for the same reason. The judge will miss it the first time, say, what just happened? Second time, they're trying to process. Third time, holy moly, look what they did. And they get the score. So, I thought that was very, very fascinating, you know?

Yeah, I thought a lot about that too as I was going through the book. And I noticed there's a behavior that I fall into. And I think I'm as guilty as everybody my age of falling into the social media trap and just kind of scrolling through videos a couple times a day. And sometimes, Joe, if I watch something, let's say it's a sports highlight, if I watch something, sometimes I watch it 3 or 4 times. The first time you go, what was that? He just hurdled that player. And then you watch it a second time and you go, well, that was really interesting. And maybe the third time you're watching the play from a different view, maybe watching some other players. And I started to realize I do that naturally myself.

That's pretty cool. That's a good example. Yeah.

Yeah. It's probably why on SportsCenter, when they do the top 10, they play it back 3 times or 4 times from different angles for people.

Well, you know, we— yeah. I mean, it's just a version of listening or paying attention. And all of us, well, we just got done talking about too many words, too much coming at me. Your attention span, it's only shortened with social media. But man, you better make the point fast and you better make it a couple of times.

Yeah. Well, let's practice that with this next point I wanted to bring up. You talked about curiosity, and I think that curiosity is definitely a trait of a great leader. watching and reading leaders who demonstrate curiosity in a variety of ways. And the most interesting one that I found in your book was that according to a Google study, asking is more powerful than telling. Could you explain that a little bit now that I've set the stage for what we're going to talk about? Audience, remember, 3 times, we're asking more than telling. Now, kind of hammer it home for us.

Yeah. Well, First off, yes. So, that Google study was interesting. I thought that too because I'm a big believer in ask questions, listen to learn. You know something, Nick, that I don't know. When I know what you know and we put those together, we're going to get a better answer. That's just a fact. Now, one of us may have to change a little bit or both of us, but we get a better letter. If I assume I've got the answer and what you think is wrong, heaven help me. And essentially, that was that Google interviewed 80,000 managers. So that's how big they are. Or they, you know, research that. And the top performers, as you know, performing as well as staff like them and all that stuff, and were basically great coaches. Great coaches, they had to engage. And how'd they engage? They ask questions and they listen, ask questions and listen, which is not very hard. Now, it takes a little bit of humbleness that you don't know all the answers. You got to admit that to yourself. You gotta understand, people on different levels have insights you don't, but it's not very hard.

And I think, I think that I've seen this play out, and I think you make a couple of jokes about your personal relationships too. Sometimes I'm reading a book like this, I think about my communication with my wife or my friends or something like that. But it's like, active listening isn't hard. You just have to be present. You have to pay attention, and you shouldn't be thinking about how you're going to respond or sound smart or ask the next question. Like, you're just supposed to sit there and digest. And even as a podcaster, even while I'm interviewing you today, I mean, part of my role is to think about what are we going to talk about next in the real moment. But at the same time, I'm, I'm supposed to kind of relate to what you're talking about. I'm supposed to be active listening. And I think that's why sometimes podcasters struggle, and they do, like we joked about, stick to their pre-written questions because active listening, while it's not hard to do, it's also not that easy. We're so used to being distracted and on to the next thing.

Yeah. Or the other thing I think, especially in leadership, is you actually think you know the answer and have the answer. Therefore, the questions and the listening is just perfunctory. You're just performing a little task to be polite. And that's a big mistake because you're just wrong. You do not have all the information. I didn't have a single leader that believed that I interviewed, talked to. And just like you, if you spent your whole time thinking, well, what's my next question? My next question? And I said something interesting and you completely ignored it. I mean, if it's uninteresting, then so be it. But if it's interesting, you know, your audience might say, wait a minute, you didn't even pick up on what he said there, Nick. What were you doing? Which is not your problem. I'm not saying that. But it is if you get stuck in your own head. It's impossible to listen. Yeah.

It kind of reminds me of that idea. If, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. And as a leader, you should be surrounded by people that understand different areas of the business better than you do. And your, your job is to connect it to vision and mission and provide support and feedback and understand the situation and maybe make decisions, but you're not the subject matter expert. And that's a, I don't know, is that a humbling pill to swallow? Like, have you found that? A difficult thing to deal with.

You know what I've observed over time? The more— the earlier you are in your leadership roles, the harder that is because then you feel like you've got— wait, I'm supposed to have all the answers. I'm supposed to have the answer. The bosses need to think I know it all. You're wrong. You're wrong. But that's how you think. Or what I've also noticed, at least in our industry, my industry, if the team screws up, if it's a small enough team, you can actually do it yourself. Now, you might work 24 hours for 3 days. You might kill yourself, but you can do it. The problem is, that's fine if you have a team of 3. Now, if you have 30, it can't happen anymore. If you're a CEO, it's impossible. So, I think that's— I think people lose sight as they're more junior. I do see the issue you've raised. I just think I've got to have all the answers. And a friend of mine said, well, Joe, you're trained in school. You got to know the answer. You got to know the answer. Now, I actually thought I was trained to say I don't know if I didn't know. So, we had different coaches, we had different teachers, this fellow and me. But you're right, I think you are trained to, you know, you should know all the answers. What are you doing, son?

I think you had better teachers than most people. I mean, today—

I hope so.

I must have. Don't get me down that rabbit hole. I think the U.S. public education system teaches people to avoid failure at all costs, and that leads to a whole bunch of issues down the road.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Well, that's— That's— yeah, well, we can be here. Yeah, that's actually what you're supposed to be doing as a parent is help your child learn how to fail. I mean, you know, but now we don't want to go there and start lecturing parents.

Oh, well, maybe we could get there if we have time, because my wife and I, we have a 5-and-a-half-month-old baby, and I've been really interested in effective parenting. Uh, but we'll get to that later. Let's get back to leadership. So, you— I'm curious, you mentioned in your exam— in your response there, you said, you know, if you have 3 people, it's easier than if you have 30. So, you know, book thinkers, I have about 10 people on my team. What's the right number of direct reports? What, in your experience, is it to have 3 direct reports that each have people under them? Is it, okay, maybe you cap out at 10, you cap out at 20. Like, what's the optimal number of people that you directly manage?

Well, I mean, you could call BCG, my old firm, and they could give you, you know, the consulting and the math. I mean, if you've got a corporation, You know, and it depends on your role, but be kind of 6 to 8.

6 to 8.

Yeah, I think if you're running a 10-person firm, you better be connecting with all 10 of them. You're not that— my friend. Now, if it gets to 22, then, okay, I better put a COO in here or whatever title you want to give. But, you know, I think you can still touch 10 people. Sorry. So it depends on your question, but 6 to 8 is the kind of typical thing they say.

No, and I still do. And I really enjoy it. And I love reading books like yours and applying what I learn. And one of the pieces that I'm going to apply, and this is something you said podcasters don't typically touch on. So Book Thinkers family, listen up here. This is kind of unique for Joe to share. You have an entire section of the book where you talk about avoiding mushy follow-up and feedback. And so what do you mean by that?

I think if you really are coming from the perspective of my role as a leader is to grow and develop others to thrive, they have to get feedback. And now, people might say by definition, oh, Joe, you're talking about soft and nice. So, it's all soft feedback. No, you could get it. Being clear is just fine. And actually, being mushy. I once had a colleague. We were in a room telling a person wasn't going to make partner at BCG. If you don't make partner, you leave. So, it's up or out place. I was at the office. This person was the rep for the person being told. She was going on and on, this and that, mushy. And, you know, it's like, whoa. And the guy was— finally, the guy turns to me and says, am I being fired? I said one word, yes. He said 2 words, thank you. I mean, thank you.

Who said—

but he couldn't, you know, it was 8 minutes or 10 minutes of what in the world's going on here? I think I'm being fired, but I can't tell. That's not helpful. So, we got yes, thank you. Then we went into why and what can I learn to develop next time, my next, you know, to the productive stuff. Nobody likes— I mean, you know, you just say, that was a good meeting. You know, there's a few things you should work on, and I'll talk to you. You know, you just got to work on those. Wait, what? And what did you tell me? Oh no, no, I gotta go now. I mean, so what is that person supposed to work on? Or, you know, I think your writing wasn't clear. Okay, what do you mean? What part wasn't clear? I mean, well, this and this were— the grammar was horrible. Oh, okay. Or this and this, you said, hey, you know, taking a little bit of time. And I, since time is precious, I'm a big believer in direct, clear, you know, not hurtful, but it might hurt to the person in the moment if it's coming from the right place. If you care about them, if you want them to be better. If you don't believe those things, then, you know, still do it. But if you care and want to be better and they know it, direct. is going to be beneficial. I once— I'll tell you one other story. Once had a guy, we presented to a C-suite meeting. He said— he's 30 years old— he said like every other word, you know, like, like, like. It's just like, you know, you can say like when you're 17 or 14 or 13, but not when you're— Afterwards, we debriefed. I said in front of my team, the client left, I said, Alex, how old are you? He said, 30. I said, you know, I've never heard a 30-year-old say like as many times as that in my life. Don't say that ever again. And he was so mortified in front of the team. But he said, Joe, I never said it again after that moment because— and I think I even said a little harsher than that. But I said, what? I said, 13-year-olds say like, not 30-year-olds. And he said, well, that was really harsh. I said, yeah, but you changed, right? Yeah, I changed on the spot because there's no way that CEO was impressed with him. No way. When you say like every 3rd word, no way. Now, that's my opinion, but, you know, I'm sure.

Well, Joe, like, I think, like, that's a great—

Yeah, wait, I just lost you. That was very good. You lost track of your train of thought. Anyway, I think this whole idea of— I mean, there's books on it, of course, but, you know, direct, clear feedback when it comes from the right place. The other point on that is you got to do a little bit of work. You need to understand really what the person needs to work on and what are the strengths that they might be able to leverage to work on those. I mean, that's the best thing is actually help them to leverage some of their strengths. And then, you know, realize people are going to develop to a point. I mean, some people don't, you know, don't put one of your 12 people in the wrong role if they're not going to deliver in that role. I had another— I had a colleague once who told his client, he said, why do you keep this guy here as a partner? Talking to a CEO. He's just not good enough for the job. He's— or he's like, you know, he's never going to get anywhere. And the CEO said, Steve, you don't understand. He is very good in this role. He's not getting promoted to a different role, but I've got him in the right role. Your job is not to just get rid of somebody you don't think is really good. Your job is to get them in the right role, let them thrive and grow, and then you've got an incredible team. Now, don't overpromote them, but don't be firing them just because they don't fit exactly what you think of the future. It was pretty insightful. That's something throughout my whole career I always thought about, you know, what is this person best at and how do I get them there? That takes more work. You know, it's very easy to say, nah, you go away, you know. But no, you know, of your 10 people or 12, you know, who was good at what and get them in the right spot, which I'm sure you think about.

Yeah, focusing more on strengths and putting people in a position to leverage those strengths, align them with that person's role in the business. That makes total sense. And by the way, your whole avoid mushy feedback thing, it just reminds me of a simple statement, which is that the right constructive feedback is an investment in your company and that person, right? So yes, you do need to communicate it in a way that's not offensive. You need to be clear and direct. But if you remind yourself, this is an investment in making sure that person does not say like anymore and embarrass themselves in presentations, or this is an investment in making sure that this person's grammar gets checked before they send an email. Now, you're avoiding future frustration. And so, it's a little bit of discomfort upfront for a long-term gain. That's how I would think about it anyway.

Yeah. Yes, I agree. And especially if it comes from the right place that you want them to be better, then, of course, they get it. I mean, they may not like it, but they get it.

Well, listen, Joe, time flies when you're having fun.

I know.

We're almost 30 minutes into the conversation so far. So, let's back up a little bit. As we, as we kind of wrap up today's podcast, when did you decide to write The Generous Leader and why did you feel like you had something unique to say?

Um, well, I decided, um, post-COVID and as I stepped out of the North America role, um, head of North America, um, you know, first off, just a lot of people said you ought to write about leadership. I actually started writing a lot about my leadership. I talked to Harvard Press. They said, no go. First off, too much COVID, and it's too much about you. So someone suggested, why don't you interview other executives and broaden it? But then, you know, I actually, to your question, I mean, the reason I thought, I mean, I think I have something to say. What made me nervous is a lot of people, and Brené Brown has books that a million people read them on this topic. And someone said, Joe, don't worry about it. You will touch different people than her. And if you move 8 people, 8, to be better leaders, You should consider it successful. That was a nice— it was my old chief of staff. It was a very nice statement because I thought, okay, I can move 8 people, you know, and Brené will move her million and so-and-so, Rachel Scott, will move their million. So, but if you get hung up in all— there's all these already million people that say all this stuff, you won't spread a message. So, that's what drove me. That's what drove me.

Well, I took a look at your Amazon profile before we jumped on and I read some of the reviews and it looks like you've achieved your 8 people, which is nice. So, you get a little pat on the back for that. I think that's great.

I think I have. The book sold the first week, which was nice.

Yeah, well, that— yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. Who is, uh, as we're getting close to the, the wrap-up here, who is the target reader for this book from your perspective?

I think the ideal target reader is either an aspiring leader or someone who wants to be a leader. And it can be— you could be leading a soccer team, you still have to motivate and inspire those People, the team. It's not just, you know, and, and probably, um, I'm not gonna say ages, but it's, you know, ideally for me, if you're like a manager, a director, a senior director, you know, a CEO may say, yeah, okay, Joe, I already know this stuff, whatever. No offense. Um, but it's really that level. So probably 28 to 40-year-old, 45-year-old person in leadership roles who wants to, you know, grow in those roles, wants to make a difference.

Yeah, amazing. For people in the audience that want to learn more about you or grab a copy of the book, where should they go?

Well, the book is— you just said Amazon, it's there, and all the other websites. For me, I think the best thing is LinkedIn. I have a website, joedavis.com, pretty easy. I use— if someone wants to connect with me, I actually now read the messages and the notifications on LinkedIn, and I will respond. I'll send you my email because I don't like to communicate by LinkedIn. But I'm very willing to engage with folks.

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I think for anybody in the audience that decides to read The Generous Leader, follow up on that. Shoot Joe a message on LinkedIn, take the conversation over to email. I think it's important to apply what we learn. And some of the best ways to do that are by being curious and asking follow-up questions and diving into some of these subjects, just like we did today. I mean, I'm a real live example of this. I don't just read these books and have these conversations with authors like you, Joe, and move on. Like, I'm okay. How do I avoid mushy feedback? How do I be a little bit more direct in my communication? Right? I'm implementing these things as we chat.

Great, great. Well, I hope, I hope 8 people ask me to talk to— ask to talk to me from you. That'd be very cool, you know? Yeah.

Well, we'll make, we'll make that happen at least. Okay. Final question for you, Joe. If the book was deleted, Gone. Zip. Doesn't exist anymore. All the podcast interviews are gone as well. But you could leave the world with just one message from the book. What would it be?

I think I really would leave the message, you know, give of yourself so that others can grow. And if, you know, start with your children if you have to, then move to your grandchildren. But quite frankly, if you could transfer it to work, it'd be pretty damn good. And your community. That's what I'd leave.

Mic drop moment there. Well, thank you, Joe. Appreciate your time today.

Thank you, Nick.

This was fun.